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View Full Version : Circumpontic story of early R1b - what about the history of the Black Sea?



alan
06-09-2013, 10:40 AM
There is a lot of whacky nonsense out there on the web about the Black Sea floods etc so I think it is useful to establish a thread about the complex history of this zone that was so important to early R1b.


Not sure how good it is but the general circumpontic location that seems likely for early R1b means that we should really swot up on the Black Sea's physical history.

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/61Apostolova.pdf

One thing I undestand is the entire Neolithic northern shore is under water except the Crimea uplands.

http://www.academia.edu/1117486/A_new_approach_to_the_problem_of_the_Neolithisatio n_of_the_North-Pontic_area_is_there_a_north-eastern_kind_of_Mediterranean_Impresso_pottery

TigerMW
06-13-2013, 10:30 PM
... Not sure how good it is but the general circumpontic location that seems likely for early R1b means that we should really swot up on the Black Sea's physical history.
http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/61Apostolova.pdf


Thanks for the articles. Similar to the Angles, Saxons and Jutes of a later period, flooding might have provided the impetus for folks to move.

"Palaeogeographic Conditions in the Black Sea Area during the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Age" 2008, Apostolova says

"The drowned sites of the Varna Lakes are attributed to the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. The Chalcolithic layer is 0.90 m thick, but no settlement horizons are found. This gives the opportunity to suggest that the dwelling places have been drowned suddenly during a quick elevation of the water level and with enough strength to destroy the older cultural layers."

Do we know if this flooding along the Black Sea was during or after the timeframe of the bad climate phase that supposedly ruined Old Europe's agriculture?

alan
06-14-2013, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the articles. Similar to the Angles, Saxons and Jutes of a later period, flooding might have provided the impetus for folks to move.

"Palaeogeographic Conditions in the Black Sea Area during the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Age" 2008, Apostolova says

"The drowned sites of the Varna Lakes are attributed to the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age. The Chalcolithic layer is 0.90 m thick, but no settlement horizons are found. This gives the opportunity to suggest that the dwelling places have been drowned suddenly during a quick elevation of the water level and with enough strength to destroy the older cultural layers."

Do we know if this flooding along the Black Sea was during or after the timeframe of the bad climate phase that supposedly ruined Old Europe's agriculture?

Not sure Mike. One thing I notice is they came to the conclusion that some of the Black Sea flood ideas were very exaggerated. One thing I noticed in a paper recently is the Sea of Azov (which was important in Maykop times) didnt even exist until the late Neolithic.

MJost
08-04-2013, 05:02 PM
This brings up a question in my mind that we assume farming was a big factor in the West coastal area of the Black Sea. Should we assume R1b started to partisipate in its early history or was it well established when R1b arrived?

Wiki "Neolithic Europe" states: "Neolithic Europe refers to a prehistoric period in which Neolithic technology was present in Europe. This corresponds roughly to a time between 7000 BC (the approximate time of the first farming societies in Greece) and c. 1700 BC (the beginning of the Bronze Age in northwest Europe). The Neolithic overlaps the Mesolithic and Bronze Age periods in Europe as cultural changes moved from the southeast to northwest at about 1 km/year.[1] The duration of the Neolithic varies from place to place, its end marked by the introduction of bronze implements: in southeast Europe it is approximately 4,000 years (i.e. 7000 BC–3000 BC) while in Northwest Europe it is just under 3,000 years (c. 4500 BC–1700 BC)."

I am trying to understand the 1km/year implications and, if R1b followed the Danube and Rhine to the Northwest, at this communal pace which would take about 4,000 years for that kind of movement.

MJost

alan
08-04-2013, 05:13 PM
This brings up a question in my mind that we assume farming was a big factor in the West coastal area of the Black Sea. Should we assume R1b started to partisipate in its early history or was it well established when R1b arrived?

Wiki "Neolithic Europe" states: "Neolithic Europe refers to a prehistoric period in which Neolithic technology was present in Europe. This corresponds roughly to a time between 7000 BC (the approximate time of the first farming societies in Greece) and c. 1700 BC (the beginning of the Bronze Age in northwest Europe). The Neolithic overlaps the Mesolithic and Bronze Age periods in Europe as cultural changes moved from the southeast to northwest at about 1 km/year.[1] The duration of the Neolithic varies from place to place, its end marked by the introduction of bronze implements: in southeast Europe it is approximately 4,000 years (i.e. 7000 BC–3000 BC) while in Northwest Europe it is just under 3,000 years (c. 4500 BC–1700 BC)."

I am trying to understand the 1km/year implications and, if R1b followed the Danube and Rhine to the Northwest, at this communal pace which would take about 4,000 years for that kind of movement.

MJost

That model of an even paced, contant wave has basically been disproved in recent years so its not really worth worrying about. Regarding the west shore of the Black Sea, I understand that has low wet shores and was not the sort of land that early farmers liked. It was probably not settled by farmers until apparently Anatolian linked groups arrived there c. 5200BC, long after some other parts of the Balkans had been settled. I actually think that move could be a good non-steppe alternative to the origin of IE and would place the most archaic IE dialects of the Anatolian type in Anatolia and just across the Bosphorus c. 5200BC. This of course is long before PIE or the sort of society and technology reconstructed for PIE. However it could be the distant root IMO. I have just created a thread on this. I have discussed it plenty of times before but not on this forum.

MJost
08-04-2013, 05:14 PM
In addition, I understand (same Wiki) "...the Great Hungarian Plain -Located in southeastern Europe, and surrounded by mountains, the land features several small forests and large patches of grassland. It averages only 100 meters above sea level and often suffers from dry conditions, thus relying on winter snow run-off from the Alps and Carpathian Mountains." Farming may never been very sucessful but "Genetic data suggest that no independent domestication of animals took place in Neolithic Europe, and that all domesticated animals were originally domesticated in Southwest Asia."

What was the subsistence method for R1b in these areas?

MJost