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View Full Version : Ligures: Significant factor in how U152 got into Sardinia, Iberia, Sicily, and N. Af



MitchellSince1893
03-21-2017, 06:26 PM
North Africa?

I was pondering how U152》(EDIT) Z142 ended up in Sardinia, trying to determine if there was evidence of Celtic tribes ever in Sardinia; when I came across the Corsi tribe (where Corsica gets its name).

The Corsi were an ancient people of Corsica and Sardinia, noted by Ptolemy

Some sources consider the Corsi to be Ligurian.


According to historian Ettore Pais and archeologist Giovanni Ugas, the Corsi probably belong to the Ligurian people.

And Ligurians in turn are sometimes called the Celto-Ligurians.

Because of the strong Celtic influences on their language and culture, they were known already in antiquity as Celto-Ligurians
The Ligurians were known to have spread into Iberia



The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax describes the Ligyes (Ligures) as...intermingled with the Iberians from the Rhone to Emporion in Spain

and,


The Ligures seem to have been ready to engage as mercenary troops in the service of others. Ligurian auxiliaries are mentioned in the army of the Carthaginian general Hamilcar in 480 BC.[8] Greek leaders in Sicily continued to recruit their mercenary forces from the same quarter as late as the time of Agathocles.

R.Rocca
03-21-2017, 07:01 PM
You have several questions...

1. No, Celts were never in Sardinia.
2. The Corsi were likely a Ligurian tribe. The Ligurians themselves (likely) spoke an Indo-European that was an intermediate between Celtic and Italic.
3. As per Francalacci (2015), only 6 of 1200 Sardinian males (a statistically minuscule 0.005) were Z142. I don't think Z150 was in their coverage range as testing was low coverage. Given this point, I don't think one can say for sure that any single culture contributed Z142 greatly to Sardinia. Perhaps one came with Ligures, one with Romans, one during the Middle Ages, etc. Also, some could belong to a more recent founder effect.

Also, from Boattini (2013), we have the following two Sardinian sites:

OlbiaTempio/Nuoro
5 of 40 = U152 All = 12.5%
2 of 40 = L2 All = 5%

Oristano
3 of 42 = U152 All = 7.1%
0 of 42 = L2 All = 0%

Again, at this time it is very difficult to say how these samples got to Sardinia without ancient DNA sampling.

MitchellSince1893
03-21-2017, 10:13 PM
You have several questions...

1. No, Celts were never in Sardinia.
2. The Corsi were likely a Ligurian tribe. The Ligurians themselves (likely) spoke an Indo-European that was an intermediate between Celtic and Italic.
3. As per Francalacci (2015), only 6 of 1200 Sardinian males (a statistically minuscule 0.005) were Z142. I don't think Z150 was in their coverage range as testing was low coverage. Given this point, I don't think one can say for sure that any single culture contributed Z142 greatly to Sardinia. Perhaps one came with Ligures, one with Romans, one during the Middle Ages, etc. Also, some could belong to a more recent founder effect.

Also, from Boattini (2013), we have the following two Sardinian sites:

OlbiaTempio/Nuoro
5 of 40 = U152 All = 12.5%
2 of 40 = L2 All = 5%

Oristano
3 of 42 = U152 All = 7.1%
0 of 42 = L2 All = 0%

Again, at this time it is very difficult to say how these samples got to Sardinia without ancient DNA sampling.

Doing it from memory...I meant Z142 instead of Z150.

Understand Celts were not in Sardinia, but what about their precursor Italo-Celtic ancestors that might have later included the Ligurians? Just trying to find historic rationale for Z142 and U152 in Sardinia, but as you said we aren't there yet without ancient dna.

What are your thoughts on whether the Ligurians and Celts had a shared Italo-Celtic ancestry? Some language experts attempt to link the Ligurians to the Celts in some way based on language similarities.

Just wondering if some of these this proto Italo-Celtic people rich in U152 ended up being Ligurians (at least part of them), and they (and U152) entered Sardinia via Corsi, and via Sicily and North Africa possibly by means of Lingurian mercenaries. Of course no one knows the answer to this, but the Ligurians seem to fit the bill for the reasons previously mentioned.

As I look at the geographic dispersal of U152 throughout Europe and how many of the U152 subgroups have similar distributions to U152 as a whole (spread over much of Western Europe), I can't help but think that while they may have been earlier groups that spread out from the U152 homeland, the vast majority of U152 stayed in close proximity to one another, mixing among themselves before rapidly expanding in multiple directions in successive waves.

The following maps attempt to capture this concept.
Map 1: ~2400 BC. U152 slowly radiates/grows from a central area. Some small groups of early subclades (descendants of L2 ZZ45, Z56, etc) may expand further out from this core area
Map 2: ~2000 BC (don't get hung up on dates...they are just place holders) Most of L2 descendants continue to stay close to home, slowly growing in size and expanding territory. Arrows indicate that it's possible some exclusively L2 groups leaving the core area.
Map 3: ~2000 BC. Same thing for ZZ45 (parent of Z36 and others). While some small groups may leave the core area, most ZZ45 descendants grow and intermix with L2 and other U152 subclades
Map 4&5: ~2000 BC ditto for Z56 and PF6658, some small groups may leave the core area, but most descendants stay near home and intermix with other U152 subclades
Map 6: ~2000 BC is showing that as these subclades intermix in the core area, the groups leaving were intermixed (purple) with multiple subclades represented i.e. you typically aren't going to have an exclusively L2 group leaving. It may have some ZZ45 and Z56 among them. This is not to say that some groups may be mostly of a certain subgroup.
Map 7 & 8: ~1300 BC and 800-200 BC is showing how these intermixed groups would leave the core area in successive waves overtime.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bb/c3/ec/bbc3ec4ec0dc7c99b40b4f8ae60561a5.png

Isidro
03-21-2017, 11:06 PM
Doing a follow up in time and space I thought it might be of interest bring this fairly new find of a place in Catalonia, http://www.arbeca.cat/turisme.php?cs=4 , a so called Iberian fortress dated 800 BC, I had a chance to visit an expo in the MAC (Archaeological Museum of Catalonia). From the top of my head, it was classified as Urnfield, with some quite interesting findings.

I wonder if there is a connection.

Below some images of the fortress, a burial of a horse fetus and some statistics.

As you can see, the horse was part of the culture but not in a predominant way, so apart for a cult burial I wonder if it was just cultural influence and not an actual movement of people.



http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14654&stc=1http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14655&stc=1

Isidro
03-22-2017, 12:10 AM
here is more about horses and Ligurians:

https://books.google.es/books?id=_4M8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=ligurians+horses&source=bl&ots=ZCHOSSY-tt&sig=A9f7dTYvIpfOlvvaJfdt91oP6yc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3-cXs6ejSAhXmK8AKHUE4AEgQ6AEIKjAD#v=onepage&q=ligurians%20horses&f=false

R.Rocca
03-22-2017, 02:50 PM
What are your thoughts on whether the Ligurians and Celts had a shared Italo-Celtic ancestry? Some language experts attempt to link the Ligurians to the Celts in some way based on language similarities.


Sometimes these hybrid people sit linguistically between two people. This is not uncommon... as a modern example, Portuņol is spoken on the borders between Spanish speaking South American countries and Portuguese speaking Brazil...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Portu%C3%B1ol.PNG/200px-Portu%C3%B1ol.PNG

I would only guess that there were U152+ Italo-Celtic speakers that entered Italy at some point during the Early Bronze Age. They would then fuse with local people to form Proto-Italic. I suspect this may have been largely Z56 and PF6658 though, although some L2 subclades may have been involved as well.



Just wondering if some of these this proto Italo-Celtic people rich in U152 ended up being Ligurians (at least part of them), and they (and U152) entered Sardinia via Corsi, and via Sicily and North Africa possibly by means of Lingurian mercenaries. Of course no one knows the answer to this, but the Ligurians seem to fit the bill for the reasons previously mentioned.


Based on unpublished data, the core area where the Liguri Apuani tribe lived (Garfagnana) has a very large modern frequency of U152+Z56+. I think that Z56 is more likely to have expanded from somewhere around NW Italy or south-east France than anywhere central.

Z36 may have been the main marker of the Lepontii, which clearly spoke a Celtic language and inhabited NW Italy and southern Switzerland. They were there even before the famous Celtic invasions of Italy. L2 is obviously too old and too diverse to have been just Celtic or just Italic.

Isidro
04-29-2017, 01:32 PM
Doing a follow up in time and space I thought it might be of interest bring this fairly new find of a place in Catalonia, http://www.arbeca.cat/turisme.php?cs=4 , a so called Iberian fortress dated 800 BC, I had a chance to visit an expo in the MAC (Archaeological Museum of Catalonia). From the top of my head, it was classified as Urnfield, with some quite interesting findings.

I wonder if there is a connection.

Below some images of the fortress, a burial of a horse fetus and some statistics.

As you can see, the horse was part of the culture but not in a predominant way, so apart for a cult burial I wonder if it was just cultural influence and not an actual movement of people.


A quick follow up upon reading more info on this amazing place, the horse might have played a big part in their life. It turns out that they have found -so far- 14 to 15 buried fetuses ( not just one) over the life of the fortress, the writers imply that as a tip of the iceberg, although the fortress itself was not designed to raise them but the surroundings are well suited.
This is 700-800 BC, no point to discuss horse domestication origins, I do wonder though if there is anything similar in the Urnfield period studies and how is related.