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View Full Version : haplogroup A-M31 IN SCANDINAVIA HOW DID IT MAKE IT TO THIS PLACE



kingjohn
03-29-2017, 06:30 PM
how do people explain this y haplogroup A-M31 IN SCANDINAVIA
14780

there was never any slavery there who can bring this haplogroup ?
regards
adam

Haplogroup A1a* (M31) has been found in Finland, Norway and eastern England. This subclade is normally found along the west coast of Africa (Guinea-Bissau, Cape Verde, Mali, Morocco) and could have come to Europe during the Paleolithic. Indeed a few percent of sub-Saharan admixture was found among ancient DNA samples from Mesolithic Scandinavia tested by Skoglund et al. (2012).
SOURCE :http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

evon
03-29-2017, 08:25 PM
how do people explain this y haplogroup A-M31 IN SCANDINAVIA
14780

there was never any slavery there who can bring this haplogroup ?
regards
adam

Haplogroup A1a* (M31) has been found in Finland, Norway and eastern England. This subclade is normally found along the west coast of Africa (Guinea-Bissau, Cape Verde, Mali, Morocco) and could have come to Europe during the Paleolithic. Indeed a few percent of sub-Saharan admixture was found among ancient DNA samples from Mesolithic Scandinavia tested by Skoglund et al. (2012).
SOURCE :http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

Denmark had some colonies in the west indies, so it could be via that. I have an Icelandic DNA cousin as an example who has a Afro-Caribbean great great grandmother and carry mtDNA L amongst other things. There have been some examples of people from such colonies settling in the Nordic region, so it is not too surprising..

lgmayka
03-29-2017, 08:31 PM
Take a look at YFull's A1a haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/A1a/). The Irish A1a* diverged from the Gambian A-Y8116 clade almost 12,000 years ago.

I strongly encourage any European in Y-DNA A to order the Big Y test.

Squad
07-11-2017, 12:41 PM
Using Y-STRs alone, it was already apparent that A-M32 in Europe is much younger than the claim trying to make it pass as one of the original european haplgroups. When comparing european haplotypes with some of the african ones, one sees only minor differences in modal values and if the split was to be that ancient it would translate into different values for at least a few of the markers known for their smaller mutational ability. That said, european A-M13 is also very reduced in diversity and all the instances belong to a very tight cluster. So far, the haplogroup is known to be present in the following six countries : England, Ireland, Belgium, Holland, Norway and Finland. Some possible cases from Sweden have been reported but very extensive samples of 3,000 to more than 10,000 failed to detect any german, spanish, portuguese and polish cases. We can therefore safely assume that within Europe, it is a northwestern phenomenon. Although it would had undoubtedly came from Morocco, it failed to survive in areas where population density was, and still is, higher. This or A-M32 as a whole originated in Iberia, a thing I'd deem as very unlikely given the lack of evidence so far. Safest bet is to argue for a quick and small mesolithic north african migration, quick due to the fact that it failed to establish itself in northwestern Europe. Worth mentioning is the haplogroup's extremely low frequency in Morocco itself and complete absence in the rest of the Maghreb so far. Some egyptian cases have been confirmed though. Within its european distribution range, it is also a possibilty that the vikings played a role in bringing it from Scandinavia, where it would have been surviving initially, to the Isles and Belgium/Holland. All in all, only refined SNP testing would tell us more about A-M32's intriguing existence as an extremley reduced cluster in both size and diversity in the northhwestern most corner of Europe.

pdquick
07-08-2018, 01:16 AM
Both Sweden and Denmark were active in the African-to-Caribbean slave trade in the 18th century. As far as I can tell, there was nothing preventing a slave being transported to Scandinavia or from being held captive in Sweden until 1811 or in Denmark until 1848. Sweden ruled Finland until 1809, and Norway was ruled by Denmark and then Sweden during this time.

I imagine that free people of color could probably also travel from the Caribbean to Scandinavia, though if anyone has evidence to the contrary I'd be interested to see it.

TuaMan
07-14-2018, 08:44 PM
Take a look at YFull's A1a haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/A1a/). The Irish A1a* diverged from the Gambian A-Y8116 clade almost 12,000 years ago.

I strongly encourage any European in Y-DNA A to order the Big Y test.

Looking at that, all the European kits are nested under A-Y37663, with TMRCA of 2100 ybp. It's probably just a Roman era relict, some auxiliary that ended up in Britain or the Rhineland border region whose descendants wandered even further afield to Scandinavia.

epoch
12-17-2020, 04:44 PM
Using Y-STRs alone, it was already apparent that A-M32 in Europe is much younger than the claim trying to make it pass as one of the original european haplgroups. When comparing european haplotypes with some of the african ones, one sees only minor differences in modal values and if the split was to be that ancient it would translate into different values for at least a few of the markers known for their smaller mutational ability. That said, european A-M13 is also very reduced in diversity and all the instances belong to a very tight cluster. So far, the haplogroup is known to be present in the following six countries : England, Ireland, Belgium, Holland, Norway and Finland. Some possible cases from Sweden have been reported but very extensive samples of 3,000 to more than 10,000 failed to detect any german, spanish, portuguese and polish cases. We can therefore safely assume that within Europe, it is a northwestern phenomenon. Although it would had undoubtedly came from Morocco, it failed to survive in areas where population density was, and still is, higher. This or A-M32 as a whole originated in Iberia, a thing I'd deem as very unlikely given the lack of evidence so far. Safest bet is to argue for a quick and small mesolithic north african migration, quick due to the fact that it failed to establish itself in northwestern Europe. Worth mentioning is the haplogroup's extremely low frequency in Morocco itself and complete absence in the rest of the Maghreb so far. Some egyptian cases have been confirmed though. Within its european distribution range, it is also a possibilty that the vikings played a role in bringing it from Scandinavia, where it would have been surviving initially, to the Isles and Belgium/Holland. All in all, only refined SNP testing would tell us more about A-M32's intriguing existence as an extremley reduced cluster in both size and diversity in the northhwestern most corner of Europe.

It could also have been introduced by 17th century ship personnel. At least the Dutch VOC picked up personnel from African coasts when sailing from and to the East-Indian islands. There even was a small African community in 17th century Amsterdam. Rembrandt painted a member. Peter Paul Rubens as well, which suggest an African presence in Antwerp as well. It is entirely possible that someone of that community took ship for the Baltic or Norway.

Artmar
12-21-2020, 08:27 AM
It could also have been introduced by 17th century ship personnel. At least the Dutch VOC picked up personnel from African coasts when sailing from and to the East-Indian islands. There even was a small African community in 17th century Amsterdam. Rembrandt painted a member. Peter Paul Rubens as well, which suggest an African presence in Antwerp as well. It is entirely possible that someone of that community took ship for the Baltic or Norway.

I pretty much doubt it since the cluster is too old for that.