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Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 04:50 PM
I honestly don't know how to interpret any of this or which calculators to use. I am new to all of this. I've been at this all day and each calculator gives me something new and I get more confused lol.


I know my dad's background and a bit of my mom's background and it seems like HarappaWorld is listing things that don't match for me? Maybe someone more well versed could help me interpret this.


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.06
2 Baloch 33.8
3 NE-Euro 7.57
4 Caucasian 4.09
5 Mediterranean 2.03
6 SE-Asian 1.54
7 SW-Asian 1.21
8 Beringian 0.96
9 Siberian 0.72
10 American 0.53
11 Papuan 0.34
12 San 0.13
13 Pygmy 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 2.49
2 ap-brahmin (xing) 3.37
3 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.47
4 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 3.69
5 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 3.72
6 up (harappa) 3.77
7 vaish (reich) 3.89
8 bihari (harappa) 4.15
9 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.25
10 meghawal (reich) 4.27
11 bihari-muslim (harappa) 4.41
12 rajasthani (harappa) 4.46
13 srivastava (reich) 4.66
14 gujarati (harappa) 4.8
15 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.9
16 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 5.16
17 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.16
18 bengali-brahmin (harappa) 5.53
19 caribbean-indian (harappa) 5.81
20 gujarati-b (hapmap) 5.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.8% ukranian (yunusbayev) @ 1.09
2 93.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.5% belorussian (behar) @ 1.12
3 93.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.8% mordovian (yunusbayev) @ 1.15
4 93.5% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.5% russian (behar) @ 1.17
5 93% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 7% slovenian (xing) @ 1.23
6 93.9% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.1% lithuanian (behar) @ 1.24
7 93.1% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.9% n-european (xing) @ 1.26
8 92.9% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 7.1% hungarian (behar) @ 1.29
9 93.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.8% utahn-white (hapmap) @ 1.33
10 57.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) + 42.3% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.4
11 93.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.8% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 1.43
12 50.9% up (harappa) + 49.1% vaish (reich) @ 1.43
13 62.2% dusadh (metspalu) + 37.8% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 1.45
14 93.3% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.7% orcadian (hgdp) @ 1.46
15 64.3% up (harappa) + 35.7% brahmin-uttar-pradesh (metspalu) @ 1.48
16 93.2% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 6.8% british (1000genomes) @ 1.48
17 62.7% up-scheduled-caste (metspalu) + 37.3% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 1.5
18 70.4% vaish (reich) + 29.6% andhra-pradesh (harappa) @ 1.51
19 82% up-kshatriya (metspalu) + 18% tharu (reich) @ 1.56
20 94.4% singapore-indian-b (sgvp) + 5.6% finnish (1000genomes) @ 1.57



I'm not understanding how I'm scoring differently on all these calculators? Some list me as Punjabi or some sort of Afghan, while others list me as Central Indian proper. Is this normal or am I not doing this right?

Gedrosia K9 ASI Oracle

Kit M109675

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 48.45
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 17.78
3 SE_Asian 12.77
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 9.82
5 WHG 3.94
6 SW_Asian 2.64
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.56
8 W_African 1.87
9 Siberian_E_Asian 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho 8.81
2 Punjabi 10.03
3 Pathan 11.84
4 Bengali 13.63
5 Pashtun_Afghan 15.17
6 Kurd_SE 16.89
7 Kalash 17.59
8 Tajik_Afghan 19.28
9 Balochi 20.23
10 Brahui 20.81
11 Uzbek_Afghan 21.01
12 Tajik_Pomiri 21.27
13 Makrani 22.08
14 Hazara_Afghan 26.33
15 Paniyas 29.73
16 KOTIAS 30.19
17 Lezgin 30.86
18 Azeri_Dagestan 31.48
19 Iranian 31.66
20 Puliyar 32.37

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% Punjabi + 18.9% Papuan @ 2.99
2 79.1% Punjabi + 20.9% Kharia @ 3.32
3 75.6% Pathan + 24.4% Ho @ 3.47
4 76% Pathan + 24% Kharia @ 3.48
5 78.8% Punjabi + 21.2% Ho @ 3.51
6 78.5% Pathan + 21.5% Papuan @ 3.8
7 54% Pathan + 46% Bengali @ 4.3
8 52.9% Bengali + 47.1% Pashtun_Afghan @ 4.37
9 67.8% Kalash + 32.2% Kharia @ 4.53
10 79.5% Punjabi + 20.5% Ust_Ishim @ 4.73
11 67.3% Kalash + 32.7% Ho @ 4.79
12 79.9% Burusho + 20.1% Paniyas @ 4.84
13 81.4% Burusho + 18.6% Puliyar @ 4.92
14 86.2% Punjabi + 13.8% Kusunda @ 5.05
15 89.9% Burusho + 10.1% Great_Andamanese @ 5.1
16 59.5% Punjabi + 40.5% Bengali @ 5.25
17 73.4% Pathan + 26.6% Paniyas @ 5.26
18 62.2% Bengali + 37.8% Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.35
19 57.2% Bengali + 42.8% Kalash @ 5.36
20 85.5% Burusho + 14.5% Papuan @ 5.45

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 04:53 PM
Here are my Gedrosia K15 results:

Gedrosia K15 Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Indian_Tribal 36.76
2 Burusho 28.84
3 Balochi 8.83
4 WHG 5.51
5 Caucuses 4.72
6 Kalash 3.81
7 Paniya 3.36
8 EEF 2.03
9 SW_Asian 1.82
10 Onge 1.59
11 E_African 1.09


Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Punjabi @ 6.131077
2 Vaish @ 6.233555
3 Meghawal @ 6.487409
4 GujaratiC @ 8.353650
5 Tamil_Brahmin @ 8.661270
6 UP_Brahmin @ 9.493304
7 Malli @ 10.225401
8 GujaratiB @ 10.822161
9 UP_Kol @ 10.961157
10 UP_Muslim @ 11.317138
11 Kanjar @ 11.642014
12 Jains @ 11.864177
13 GujaratiD @ 12.469080
14 Bengali @ 12.666127
15 Tharu @ 13.517385
16 Velama @ 13.662233
17 GujaratiA @ 15.312224
18 UP_Caste @ 15.592237
19 Kallar @ 19.457510
20 Kashmiri_Pandit @ 19.518955

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% GujaratiA +50% Tharu @ 3.446016


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Punjabi +25% Tharu +25% UP_Brahmin @ 3.182044


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Hallkipiki + Pathan + Tharu + UP_Brahmin @ 2.584206
2 Bhil + Pathan + Tharu + UP_Brahmin @ 2.615316
3 Bhil + Pathan + Tharu + Vaish @ 2.663898
4 Mala + Pathan + Tharu + UP_Brahmin @ 2.741861
5 GujaratiA + Hallkipiki + UP_Brahmin + Vaish @ 2.930556
6 Madiga + Pathan + Tharu + UP_Brahmin @ 2.930618
7 Punjabi + Tharu + Vaish + Vaish @ 2.979790
8 GujaratiA + Hallkipiki + Vaish + Vaish @ 2.986568
9 Hallkipiki + Kashmiri_Pandit + Vaish + Vaish @ 3.025161
10 Mala + Pathan + Tharu + Vaish @ 3.049130
11 GujaratiD + Mala + Malli + Tajik_Pomiri @ 3.050627
12 Madiga + Pathan + Tharu + Vaish @ 3.066744
13 Hallkipiki + Kashmiri_Pandit + Punjabi + UP_Brahmin @ 3.079444
14 Kallar + Malli + Tajik_Pomiri + UP_Caste @ 3.082364
15 Tamil_Brahmin + Tharu + Vaish + Vaish @ 3.110582
16 Hallkipiki + Pathan + Tharu + Vaish @ 3.113308
17 GujaratiB + Irula + UP_Brahmin + UP_Brahmin @ 3.122877
18 Malli + Piramalai + Tajik_Pomiri + UP_Caste @ 3.142976
19 Mala + Pashtun_Afghan + UP_Caste + Vaish @ 3.149677
20 Hallkipiki + Kanjar + Malli + Tajik_Pomiri @ 3.149882

Kulin
04-02-2017, 07:08 PM
It looks like you are from a high-caste background, but I think somewhere from Maharashtra/Gujarat/Carnatic or the Hindi Belt east of Rajasthan judging by the results.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 07:27 PM
Thank for the reply Kulin! My father is a Punjabi Brahmin and my mother is a Guyanese with some sort of Indian background. We honestly aren't sure what she is or which part of India her grandparents are from, but she does say that both sides are Chamar, with a little of something called Chettri mixed in from a grandmother. Does this seem to be inline with what you're seeing from my results?

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 07:32 PM
Would you be able to explain how you knew my results placed me East of Rajasthan? I've always been taken for Punjabi (I know that phenotype doesn't equal genotype) and that's all I knew before this so this is exciting for me.

I'm also doing this for my mother because she's hoping to find out where in India her roots are from. I know that's a bit of a stretch to find out, but I'm trying!

Kulin
04-02-2017, 07:45 PM
Thank for the reply Kulin! My father is a Punjabi Brahmin and my mother is a Guyanese with some sort of Indian background. We honestly aren't sure what she is or which part of India her grandparents are from, but she does say that both sides are Chamar, with a little of something called Chettri mixed in from a grandmother. Does this seem to be inline with what you're seeing from my results?



Would you be able to explain how you knew my results placed me East of Rajasthan? I've always been taken for Punjabi (I know that phenotype doesn't equal genotype) and that's all I knew before this so this is exciting for me.

I'm also doing this for my mother because she's hoping to find out where in India her roots are from. I know that's a bit of a stretch to find out, but I'm trying!


Your South Indian level is higher than most Punjabi high-caste people, but your NE Euro is still in that range, also your Caucasian is too low for a regular Punjabi. It goes in line with your ancestry IMO. "Chamar" usually means Dalit, and I'm guessing she's from Eastern UP/Bihar like majority of Guyanese/Trinidadians. It should make sense for your results to appear this way IMO. Actually, your mother could also be from the Punjab as well then, but I don't know if they're called chamars there.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 07:57 PM
My mother says that her father said they were Punjabi chamar's, but no one really can validate that. I do believe they are called chamar there as well or at least that's what I've heard there. But again, we're not sure if she's just saying that because she's married to a Punjabi lol. Do you happen to have seen results like mine before? I'd love to know if there's others who show similar results.

I also had my DNA done through FTDNA and was told by someone that I had recent British admixture. Do you see that reflected in my results or is this maybe something reading at British, but really isn't?

14867

Kulin
04-02-2017, 08:02 PM
My mother says that her father said they were Punjabi chamar's, but no one really can validate that. I do believe they are called chamar there as well or at least that's what I've heard there. But again, we're not sure if she's just saying that because she's married to a Punjabi lol. Do you happen to have seen results like mine before? I'd love to know if there's others who show similar results.

I also had my DNA done through FTDNA and was told by someone that I had recent British admixture. Do you see that reflected in my results or is this maybe something reading at British, but really isn't?

14867

Yeah, just looked it up, there are chamars in Punjab as well.

SI = South Indian, BH = Baloch, CC = Caucasian and NE Euro = Northeast European.

----------SI----BH--CC--NE Euro
Punjabi 43% 36% 5% 9%
Punjabi 39% 39% 9% 7%
Punjabi 34% 43% 7% 7%
Punjabi 34% 40% 12% 8%
Punjabi 33% 44% 5% 10%
Punjabi 31% 41% 14% 8%
Punjabi 29% 36% 11% 11%
Punjabi Arain (Xing, N = 25) 31% 44% 10% 7%
Punjabi Brahmin 35% 40% 8% 11%
Punjabi Brahmin 33% 41% 13% 10%
Punjabi Chamar 40% 33% 9% 6%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 39% 11% 10%
Punjabi Jatt 30% 44% 6% 14%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 42% 8% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 46% 7% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 28% 40% 10% 15%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 44% 10% 13%
Punjabi Jatt 27% 35% 16% 11%
Punjabi Jatt Muslim 30% 39% 13% 8%
Punjabi Khatri 30% 42% 12% 12%
Punjabi Lahori Muslim 31% 44% 11% 8%
Punjabi Pahari Rajput 34% 43% 11% 7%
Punjabi Pakistan 28% 36% 16% 7%
Punjabi Ramgarhia 35% 43% 5% 9%

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/#.WOFVePkrLIU


Would definitely make sense for both your parents to be Punjabi, or atleast majority Punjabi in the case of your mom.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 08:12 PM
Ok! I'm sure my mom would be happy to hear she isn't just making things up lol. This would explain why it seemed initially that I'd be more of a Eastern shifted Brahmin rather than a mixed Punjabi. I do however, see that SI is listed as 35% for Punjabi Brahmin's and 40% for Punjabi Chamar's. If my mother is assumed to be a majority Punjabi Chamar, would there be something else resulting in my 47% SI or is this more of an algorithm thing in the calculator?

It seems like you've been doing this for a while! In your opinion do you think many people who have high South Indian levels show or don't show it phenotypically? I don't think I've ever thought before this test that I would have a higher than average amount since I've always just looked like other Punjabi's? It makes me wonder if there are other mixed caste Punjabi's in the media and what have you that just generally makeup a stereotypically Punjabi look. I think I'm also assuming that based on my DNA I should look a certain way, but I'm not entirely should what that would be.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 08:20 PM
Ok! I'm sure my mom would be happy to hear she isn't just making things up lol. This would explain why it seemed initially that I'd be more of a Eastern shifted Brahmin rather than a mixed Punjabi. I do however, see that SI is listed as 35% for Punjabi Brahmin's and 40% for Punjabi Chamar's. If my mother is assumed to be a majority Punjabi Chamar, would there be something else resulting in my 47% SI or is this more of an algorithm thing in the calculator?

It seems like you've been doing this for a while! In your opinion do you think many people who have high South Indian levels show or don't show it phenotypically? I don't think I've ever thought before this test that I would have a higher than average amount since I've always just looked like other Punjabi's? It makes me wonder if there are other mixed caste Punjabi's in the media and what have you that just generally makeup a stereotypically Punjabi look. I think I'm also assuming that based on my DNA I should look a certain way, but I'm not entirely should what that would be.

It depends, South Asians look distinct from other populations because of their ASE mainly. So, I think it definitely affects your phenotype, but obviously this isn't a rule or anything. But, I think the main factor affecting how you look is the look of your parents/grandparents. You can pass as Punjabi, but similarly you can pass in many other areas of the indian subcontinent.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 08:28 PM
Yea that makes sense. I assumed this was the case for many, but I know that many people say genotype doesn't affect phenotype so I was wary to bring it up. When you say the main factor affecting how I look is my parents/grandparents, what do you mean? I've also never thought about passsing anywhere else than Punjab lol, goes to show you how little I knew before this. Where do you find me passing as, if you don't mind me asking?

Kulin
04-02-2017, 08:43 PM
Yea that makes sense. I assumed this was the case for many, but I know that many people say genotype doesn't affect phenotype so I was wary to bring it up. When you say the main factor affecting how I look is my parents/grandparents, what do you mean? I've also never thought about passsing anywhere else than Punjab lol, goes to show you how little I knew before this. Where do you find me passing as, if you don't mind me asking?

No lol, I meant that ASE being the main segment in what makes South Asians in general look distinct from West Asians/Europeans, not for your personal case. Honestly, judging by your avatar, I think you can pass as a "high caste type" anywhere from Sindh to Bengal, you have a "pan Indian/South Asian" look IMO.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 08:52 PM
Oh! lol. Well even that makes sense. It would explain why we tend to spot each other no matter what end of the spectrum we look like. I never knew that "high castes" had a type, I honestly don't have many Indians, Pakistani's, etc. where I live. I must've favored my dad's side.

My only interaction has been a few Tamil friends growing up that were quick to tell me I look "North Indian" upon meeting me when I was trying to fit in with them as a teenager lol. My dad's family always said I looked like my Pashtun grandfather, but you know how that goes. Everyone seems to think I look like them in my family so I never really knew where I could fit in. It's nice hearing that I can fit in anywhere in India! lol

Kulin
04-02-2017, 08:55 PM
Oh! lol. Well even that makes sense. It would explain why we tend to spot each other no matter what end of the spectrum we look like. I never knew that "high castes" had a type, I honestly don't have many Indians, Pakistani's, etc. where I live. I must've favored my dad's side.

My only interaction has been a few Tamil friends growing up that were quick to tell me I look "North Indian" upon meeting me when I was trying to fit in with them as a teenager lol. My dad's family always said I looked like my Pashtun grandfather, but you know how that goes. Everyone seems to think I look like them in my family so I never really knew where I could fit in. It's nice hearing that I can fit in anywhere in India! lol

Wait you have a Pashtun Grandfather as well?

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 09:23 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 09:35 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.

Hmm, that's interesting, but Badakshanis aren't even Pashtuns...... and it's quite hard to believe an Afghan would convert to Hinduism from Islam. I think you're misinformed about your grandfather. (Hope you're not trolling btw).

Coldmountains
04-02-2017, 09:42 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.

That is a very interesting story.... Badakshan is Tajik/Pamiri heartland and not many Pashtuns live there. It is hard to believe that a tajik or pashtun convert was accepted as brahmin. There were and are Afghan Hindus but they are recent immigrants from India/Punjab.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 09:53 PM
I honestly don't know, that just what my grandmother told me when I was taking a family history years ago. I don't doubt that he would've converted considering how my grandmother's family is, it's not hard to believe if he wanted to marry her. I also do know that he never partook in any religious stuff, it was all my grandmother. Whether he converted and never practiced or just chose to have my dad and his siblings raised as Hindu because of my grandma, I'll never know.


To be honest, I don't think elders in my family want to let on much and they aren't open to talking, which doesn't give me much to go off of. I will say that I don't doubt that he wasn't Afghan just because how he looks. I did have my brother take a DNA test as well and I'm hoping that will tell me something. You've been nothing, but helpful and I'm not going to waste your time by trolling you. I'm just telling you what I know, heard and think based on what little I've seen of him. He could very well have been something else, but the only thing I know is that he was blue eyed, spoke Farsi and worked for the government as a translator of sorts on an Urdu newspaper. I don't think my grandma would make up the name Badakshan either if he hadn't told her, since she's not literate and it had to be told to her. I also don't know if Pashtun is just her slang for everyone from Afghanistan.

He could very well have been lying about his roots for whatever reason too, I don't doubt that. If he was a Pashtun and not from Badakshan like you said, he may have just been trying to give her an answer that wouldn't have put the family in trouble during partition. I've thought about it for years and the only man who could tell me what's going on is gone. Your guess is as good as mine at this point honestly!

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 09:54 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.


How can a Pashtun or any person in general convert to a Bhramin in recent millennia though, I am interested myself.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 09:55 PM
I honestly don't know, that just what my grandmother told me when I was taking a family history years ago. I don't doubt that he would've converted considering how my grandmother's family is, it's not hard to believe if he wanted to marry her. I also do know that he never partook in any religious stuff, it was all my grandmother. Whether he converted and never practiced or just chose to have my dad and his siblings raised as Hindu because of my grandma, I'll never know.


To be honest, I don't think elders in my family want to let on much and they aren't open to talking, which doesn't give me much to go off of. I will say that I don't doubt that he wasn't Afghan just because how he looks. I did have my brother take a DNA test as well and I'm hoping that will tell me something. You've been nothing, but helpful and I'm not going to waste your time by trolling you. I'm just telling you what I know, heard and think based on what little I've seen of him. He could very well have been something else, but the only thing I know is that he was blue eyed, spoke Farsi and worked for the Indian government as a translator of sorts on an Urdu newspaper. I don't think my granmother would make up the name Badakshan either if he hadn't told her, since she's not literate and it had to be told to her. I also don't know if Pashtun is just her slang for everyone from Afghanistan. He could very well have been lying about his roots for whatever reason too, I don't doubt that. If he was a Pashtun and not from Badakshan like you said, he may have just been trying to give her an answer that wouldn't have put the family in trouble during partition. I've thought about it for years and the only man who could tell me what's going on is gone. Your guess is as good as mine at this point honestly!

Alright lol, I didn't mean any offence btw.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:01 PM
Thanks for your answer coldmountains! My grandfather is not alive so I don't honestly know. I was told that according to Hindu scripture anyone that converts is given Brahmin status so I never questioned her story until Kulin pointed out that Pashtun's don't even live in Badakshan. I'm not sure if my grandfather lied to her or she refers to anyone from Afghanistan as Pashtun? With this new info it definitely seems like something is fishy with her story. This is something I will have to figure out now.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:03 PM
Oh no! I didn't take any offense lol. I'm just as puzzled as you are now, that's all. I'm trying to go through everything she's told me about my grandfather trying to figure out what's going on. My family history just seems to get more muddled by the minute.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:06 PM
Thanks for your answer surbakhun! I don't think you can convert to a Bramhin specifically? As far as I know anyone who converts from a different religion to Hinduism has to be part of the caste system. I'm guessing by the logic that they have "seen the light" they are given Bramhin as a caste? Maybe someone who knows more about Hinduism can tell me if what I was told is right or wrong according to scripture, I don't know lol.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 10:07 PM
Thanks for your answer coldmountains! My grandfather is not alive so I don't honestly know. I was told that according to Hindu scripture anyone that converts is given Brahmin status so I never questioned her story until Kulin pointed out that Pashtun's don't even live in Badakshan. I'm not sure if my grandfather lied to her or she refers to anyone from Afghanistan as Pashtun? With this new info it definitely seems like something is fishy with her story. This is something I will have to figure out now.

According to traditional Hinduism, nobody can convert to Hinduism, it's an ethnic religion that people are born with. But, nowadays groups such as RamaKrishna Mission or Vishwa Hindu Parishad permit conversions. Actually, the latter group allows you to choose your caste, but obviously this is not valid and is against Hindu principles. I've read this fictional story over couple years ago, in where a Bengali Muslim man (belonging to a low caste community) converts to Hinduism, and chose to be Brahmin.

Why Mohammad Manan Mandal wants to be a Brahmin today

It is a cold December day in Kolkata. Inside the crowded minibus is a sea of shawls and long-sleeved sweaters. Outside, hidden in dense fog, a brave new world waits for 67-year-old retired headmaster Mohammad Manan Mandal. A world with infinite possibilities and then some more. A world where the Vishwa Hindu Parishad has claimed those who re-convert to Hinduism from Islam or Christianity will be allowed to choose a caste for themselves and will not be subject to unfair treatment.

Taking a longing look at the tiny silver Jesus dangling between the ample breasts of the young lady sitting in front, Mandal's mind drifts to the curious religious history of his own family. Mandal's late grandfather, a sharecropper and a shudra, had read the kalma to please his Muslim landlord in what was then East Bengal and which is now another country. History was taking an unholy turn and riots were breaking out in the once-peaceful land. Mandal's grandfather had no love lost for Hindu gods as caste Hindus in his village had never spared an occasion to abuse him and his family for being lowly born. Durga pujo was off limits and so was work at farmlands of upper-caste landlords.

So the good man and his son traded gods to make a living tilling the land of Abdus Mian as the country went up in flames, neighbours killed neighbours, caste Hindus ran away in fear, and a new country was born. The Mandals stayed back, protected by Allah and the largesse of Mian Saheb, and a pudgy, brown bundle of joy was born in East Pakistan. Mohammad Manan Mandal was circumcised and sent to school with the Muslim kids, with no stigma accompanying him because of his last name. Many Hindus who had stayed back had by now converted to Islam to buy peace and some even took part in riots and rapes of the remaining Hindus to express solidarity with their Muslim brothers.

"Everything comes with a sell-by date. Even gods," Manan's grandfather told a young Manan when he was old enough to ask why he has such a mixed name. It was a piece of advice Manan would remember for his life, as he crossed over to India in his mid-20s, when the new Left Front government in West Bengal was adding numbers to its Muslim vote bank by handing out ration cards to illegal Bangladeshi immigrants. Manan became an Indian citizen, joined the CPI(M), got a job as a school teacher, and to right historical wrongs, married a Brahmin, much to the displeasure of her family.

Life has been good to Manan. Marx had done for him what many trips to mandirs could not do for his colleagues. As a card-carrying communist, he has been promoted faster than them and retired as a school headmaster. Yet, the last name still rankles him. Caste is cautiously avoided in public discourse in West Bengal, but a shudra-turned-Muslim is still a second-class citizen. "Yes, I will sell my god once more," Mandal thinks to himself. "Trade Marx to take part in Ghar Wapsi. I will die a higher caste Hindu."

The lady in front gets up. Inadvertently, Mandal blurts out: "Merry Christmas, madam, in advance." The lady who has been watching Manan ogle her all this while gives him a dirty look and says, "Moron!" "Not Moron, madam. Manan. The name is Manan Bhattacharya."

Coldmountains
04-02-2017, 10:14 PM
Thanks for your answer coldmountains! My grandfather is not alive so I don't honestly know. I was told that according to Hindu scripture anyone that converts is given Brahmin status so I never questioned her story until Kulin pointed out that Pashtun's don't even live in Badakshan. I'm not sure if my grandfather lied to her or she refers to anyone from Afghanistan as Pashtun? With this new info it definitely seems like something is fishy with her story. This is something I will have to figure out now.

Generally Muslims from Afghanistan are called Pathans by Indians even when they are of non-pashtun origin. It is possible that he was mixed with Tajiks or his family spent much time in Badakshan so that he also identified as "Pathan". So your story does not sound so unrealistic. It was probably easier for an Afghan Hindu to marry a Tajik women than for a Tajik convert to become a Brahmin. But i am not an expert about Brahmins. It would be cool if a convert could become a brahmin ( i know it is impossible) but my R1a-L657 lineage matches Brahmins so i somehow feel distantly related to them even when i am not Indian.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:14 PM
Hmm Kulin, this is interesting. Now I wonder how could he have been a Hindu if there's no conversion process? Did he just up and tell my grandmother and her family that he was Brahmhin to marry her? I would think they have some way of verifying people's claims lol. Unless, he never converted which seems equally plausible at this point. I didn't think it was too weird if they liked each other for him to convert for her, but that seems like such a modern thought process. I don't think that would've been a thing back then now, especially not if traditional Hinduism says otherwise. Do you know if Hindus in Afghanistan have been a thing for a while or are they a recent population?

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the info! I honestly had not thought about an Afghan Hindu marrying a Tajik woman. This would seem more plausible as you said. I was over here wondering if my grandmother has been living with a lie for these many years lol. That's really cool! what is your background if you don't mind me asking? My father's line is R1a- L63, do you know much about it? I've tried to look up some stuff, but haven't found much.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 10:20 PM
Hmm Kulin, this is interesting. Now I wonder how could he have been a Hindu if there's no conversion process? Did he just up and tell my grandmother and her family that he was Brahmhin to marry her? I would think they have some way of verifying people's claims lol. Unless, he never converted which seems equally plausible at this point. I didn't think it was too weird if they liked each other for him to convert for her, but that seems like such as a modern thought. I don't think that would've been a thing back then now, especially not if traditional Hinduism says otherwise. Do you know if Hindus in Afghanistan have been a thing for a while or are they a recent population?

He could just say I'm a Hindu lol, but Hinduism doesn't accept converts if you look at scriptures. This obviously doesn't mean that your grandpa can't technically say he's Hindu, and marry your grandma. Modern Hindus in Afghanistan are Punjabis, descendants of immigrants from India, but there were Hindus in Afghanistan until the Ghaznavid era (but that's history). I think your grandpa was one of such Punjabi Brahmins from there, and married your grandma. Doubt he was Pashtun or a convert.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:28 PM
Oh man, it's starting to seem more and more that he could've just lied and no one would've thought otherwise. Would the info you posted explain him speaking Farsi then? I'm starting to think she just referred to him as Pashtun because of his Afghan ancestry and not because he was one, but god knows. I feel like everyone in my family is all mixed up.

Wiki is a horrible source, but just to quickly get a gist of things here. It's saying that Hinduism has been practiced in Afghanistan since before Islam there and that there is still a minority of ethnic Afghan Hindus there? Is your research pointing to something else? It sounds like things weren't great there for Hindus for a while now. Maybe this was a factor in leaving Afghanistan for India during partition? I'd assume it would be better to be Hindu in India than Afghanistan at the time and maybe even now. Then again he could've just upped and said he was Hindu and got married like you said lol.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 10:31 PM
Oh man, it starting to seem more and more that he could've just lied and no one would've thought otherwise. If he was a Punjabi from Afghanistan would that explain him speaking Farsi? I'm starting to think she just referred to him as Pashtun because of his Afghan ancestry and not because he was one, but god knows. I feel like everyone in my family is all mixed up.

Well Farsi was the language of instruction for all British India until the mid 1800s, and it would make sense for him to know that language. But idk about Farsi as a native tongue, I think Afghan Hindus/Sikhs speak Pashto or Punjabi dialects as mother tongues.

Coldmountains
04-02-2017, 10:36 PM
Thanks for the info! I honestly had not thought about an Afghan Hindu marrying a Tajik woman. This would seem more plausible as you said. I was over here wondering if my grandmother has been living with a lie for these many years lol. That's really cool! what is your background if you don't mind me asking? My father's line is R1a- L63, do you know much about it? I've tried to look up some stuff, but haven't found much.

I dont think they deliberately lied. They probably misunderstood some family stories. This happens quite often. I am mixed. Afghan Pashtun, East Slavic and maybe distant German. L63 is a defining mutation of R1a. Brahmins are mainly R1a-L657 which is a downstream marker of R1a and probably also the lineage of your father but R1a-Z2124 is also possible.https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/32945962/490ccc6e3e8e6bc6b53f2f6780c8b5a7.jpg (https://www.pic-upload.de)

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:39 PM
This is good to know. It seems odd that Farsi would be the language during British India and not English though wouldn't it? I would've expected Farsi to be in during Mughal rule or something lol. He's described as having an obvious accent when speaking Hindi so idk if that's the Farsi or what.

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 10:40 PM
Well Farsi was the language of instruction for all British India until the mid 1800s, and it would make sense for him to know that language. But idk about Farsi as a native tongue, I think Afghan Hindus/Sikhs speak Pashto or Punjabi dialects as mother tongues.

They speak punjabi or their own mother tongue and along with that they speak both Pashto and Dari, mostly Dari since most settled in Kabul and vicinity. Afghans call hindustani men "lala" as in a hindu brother even though they are sikhs etc, I think Lala is a punjabi term.

I didn't know Farsi was the language of instruction of British India.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:42 PM
I sure hope not, that'd be horrible. I'd understand if this was a great-great grandfather or something, but I'd hope my grandmother knew who she married lol.

That's a cool mix! No wonder you're so helpful in figuring out this mess of a family history I have going on here lol. Would you happen to know if Afghan Hindus would've left for India during that time? I don't know how well known Afghan Hindus are in Afghanistan or even that they existed until a couple of hours ago lol. This is a mess.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 10:42 PM
They speak punjabi or their own mother tongue and along with that they speak both Pashto and Dari, mostly Dari since most settled in Kabul and vicinity. Afghans call hindustani men "lala" as in a hindu brother even though they are sikhs etc, I think Lala is a punjabi term.

I didn't know Farsi was the language of instruction of British India.

Oh interesting, the ones in Peshawar apparently speak Pashto as a native language. 'Lala' is a term meaning mister/sir, similar to 'Babu' in Bengali.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:46 PM
They speak punjabi or their own mother tongue and along with that they speak both Pashto and Dari, mostly Dari since most settled in Kabul and vicinity. Afghans call hindustani men "lala" as in a hindu brother even though they are sikhs etc, I think Lala is a punjabi term.

I didn't know Farsi was the language of instruction of British India.

Me neither, that's really fascinating. I would've thought for sure English would've been implemented. Would ethnic Afghan Hindus have spoken Punjabi though? because my grandfather didn't seem to know any, just very broken. His Urdu was great apparently though. I feel like modern immigrants who are Punjabi would've spoken Punjabi, not original inhabitants?

I know Punjabi and I don't think I've heard Lala as being used for brother? I've heard pra and other equivalents. You sure Lala isn't part of any other language?

Kulin
04-02-2017, 10:49 PM
I didn't know Farsi was the language of instruction of British India.

Farsi was originally the language of instruction of British India (including the East India Company here), which they inherited from Mughals, but they later changed it into Urdu soon after the Mutiny of 1857, and also later added Hindi in the 20th century due to protests by Hindu nationalists.

Edit: Not after the mutiny, my bad, but in 1837, before which Persian was used.

Reza
04-02-2017, 10:56 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 47.06
2 Baloch 33.8
3 NE-Euro 7.57
4 Caucasian 4.09
5 Mediterranean 2.03
6 SE-Asian 1.54
7 SW-Asian 1.21
8 Beringian 0.96
9 Siberian 0.72
10 American 0.53
11 Papuan 0.34
12 San 0.13
13 Pygmy 0.03

Just looking at the harappa world results, your S Indian does seem a bit too high to average 47pc between known Punjabi Brahmin (+/- something 'pathan') and presumed Punjabi on your maternal side even if Chamar?

There was a user here of Caribbean Indian origin trying to identify their background a while ago, and there was discussion about how majority were from UP/Bihar/W Bengal if going from Calcutta. Certainly a more central or Eastern shifted chamar/dalit background on one side would account for a higher SI component if combined with Punjabi. The slight above noise SE Asian is interesting, may point to something more Bihar / West Bengal oriented. How many generations have your mum's side been settled in Guyana? How mixed might they have become?

Also isn't chettri a Nepalese khatri subcaste?

Coldmountains
04-02-2017, 10:56 PM
I sure hope not, that'd be horrible. I'd understand if this was a great-great grandfather or something, but I'd hope my grandmother knew who she married lol.

That's a cool mix! No wonder you're so helpful in figuring out this mess of a family history I have going on here lol. Would you happen to know if Afghan Hindus would've left for India during that time? I don't know how well known Afghan Hindus are in Afghanistan or even that they existed until a couple of hours ago lol. This is a mess.

Before the war they were very much respected and tolerated. The war very much destroyed the country and made the country dangerous for Hindus and non-Hindus so many left the country. I know some of them here in Germany and my family always thought very highly of them.

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 10:57 PM
Me neither, that's really fascinating. I would've thought for sure English would've been implemented. Would ethnic Afghan Hindus have spoken Punjabi though? because my grandfather didn't seem to know any, just very broken. His Urdu was great apparently though. I feel like modern immigrants who are Punjabi would've spoken Punjabi, not original inhabitants?

I know Punjabi and I don't think I've heard Lala as being used for brother? I've heard pra and other equivalents. You sure Lala isn't part of any other language?

Afghan Hindus speak punjabi or other hindustani/indo aryan languages mostly, esp those from Germany that i know of, they have mostly hindustani culture with hints of Afghan culture in them and regard themselves as Afghans :).
If you are referring to ancient afghan hindus, I doubt there are any with that lineage anymore because of Islam.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChZF5HLmh_o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq_P8CJdqQI

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 10:59 PM
I'm reading that English signed into act as the medium of instruction in 1835, replacing Persian. When did the British get to India? It seems like they must've waiting a while before changed the language of instruction to English? That's seem odd politically.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 11:02 PM
I'm reading that English signed into act as the medium of instruction in 1835, replacing Persian. When did the British get to India? It seems like they must've waiting a while before changed the language of instruction to English? That's seem odd politically.

They had trade settlements from a long time ago, but officially conquered Bengal in 1757, but most parts of India were conquered much later, the Punjab almost a hundred years later after Bengal.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 11:07 PM
Hi Reza, thanks for your reply! That's what I was wondering as well. I just talked to my grandmother (mom's side) yesterday and she said my grandfather was Chamar, her father is chamar and her mother is Chettri. I tried to ask her if she meant Khatri, since that's what I'm familiar with and she said no it's Chettri. I'm just spelling it how I phonetically heard it. If it's actually a nepalese caste, that would explain why she looks asian lol. Would the higher SI mean that my mother is something other than Chamar?

She's the only side with the mystery background so I'm going to say it's her contributing that. There was talk about leaving from Calcutta, but I don't think they were from there. My grandmother's last name is Mohabir and was told once that it's Bengali for Mahaveer? Don't know if that's true or someone playing with me. My mom's side has been in Guyana for about 3-4 generations now. Going through family history with my Nani it seems like both sides are chamar for the most part and one great-great grandmother from Madras supposedly that married a chettri when she came to Guyana? She was referred to as 'achama' so I don't know if that's an indicator of someplace. Grandfather's side it's said they were Punjabi chamar's, can't validate though because he's not alive. I don't even know who they mixed with other than they were all Indian of some sort.

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:08 PM
Me neither, that's really fascinating. I would've thought for sure English would've been implemented. Would ethnic Afghan Hindus have spoken Punjabi though? because my grandfather didn't seem to know any, just very broken. His Urdu was great apparently though. I feel like modern immigrants who are Punjabi would've spoken Punjabi, not original inhabitants?

I know Punjabi and I don't think I've heard Lala as being used for brother? I've heard pra and other equivalents. You sure Lala isn't part of any other language?

We call hindustani men lala esp the punjabi ones, even here in the West. My dad always called his punjabi grocery owner "Gurjit Lala" as in Gurjit brother and I thought it was a Punjabi word. Men call each other wrora, zoi, agha, baches, trorzi etc etc as slang and formal.

Maybe Pakistani Pashtuns use the term lala, I was just checking and someone said they call Sahid Afridi Lala :confused:
lala shahid afridi batting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgjqI6yRRDQ

Like I mentioned earlier the ancient afghan hindus don't have any traces anymore its just the recent ones who moved to Afghanistan and again moved away, who were merchants and they actually are known for that till date.

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:10 PM
Oh interesting, the ones in Peshawar apparently speak Pashto as a native language. 'Lala' is a term meaning mister/sir, similar to 'Babu' in Bengali.

Ones in Peshawar? like the hindkos?

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 11:10 PM
So they would have been there during the time my grandfather supposedly left for India? or is this a more recent group of Hindus?

It's great to know there was good relations! We need more of that these days.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 11:13 PM
hmm beats me! I've never heard it, maybe it's region specific or something? lol. I've also heard of shahid afridi being referred to as Lala, but assumed it was an Urdu thing? Don't quote me though, it's probably just my ignorance lol. :\

Kulin
04-02-2017, 11:14 PM
Ones in Peshawar? like the hindkos?

No, Sikhs/Hindus/Christians of Peshawar. It seems that some speak Pashto as native tongue, while others speak Punjabi. It's interesting to know however, they identify as "Pashtun", which is quite odd.


https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/115042-For-Sikh-hakeems-Karachis-a-safer-alternative-to-Peshawar
https://tribune.com.pk/story/538810/multi-tongued-peshawars-happy-hindus-and-sikhs/
https://tribune.com.pk/story/505424/starting-over-in-a-violent-city-migrating-sikhs-find-peace/

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:19 PM
So they would have been there during the time my grandfather supposedly left for India? or is this a more recent group of Hindus?

It's great to know there was good relations! We need more of that these days.

Can I ask how old your grandfather is?
You said he could have been an Afghan Pashtun and I doubt that looking at your admix results. maybe he was a Kashmiri, hindko etc. There is a member Khanabadoshi here: he actually is what you can call 'genetically Pathan', you should check on with him and compare results, also another member Kurd also has Pashtun family members I think,you can contact them and analyze.

Leo Scorpio
04-02-2017, 11:22 PM
Sure! My grandfather died at 74 and that was in 1998. So he'd be about 93 now if he was alive. My mother is more ethnic Indian, so I figured she'd setting my results off compared to maybe what others who are more Punjabi proper with Afghan would be. I did receive 35% Central Asian in my FTDNA and assumed it was from him, but that could've been my ignorance on Central Asian being commonplace? In some calculators it shows Pathan or 'Tajik Pomiri' in the 4 Oracle so I again probably wrongly took it as confirming my grandmother's story.


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% Punjabi + 18.9% Papuan @ 2.99
2 79.1% Punjabi + 20.9% Kharia @ 3.32
3 75.6% Pathan + 24.4% Ho @ 3.47
4 76% Pathan + 24% Kharia @ 3.48
5 78.8% Punjabi + 21.2% Ho @ 3.51
6 78.5% Pathan + 21.5% Papuan @ 3.8
7 54% Pathan + 46% Bengali @ 4.3
8 52.9% Bengali + 47.1% Pashtun_Afghan @ 4.37
9 67.8% Kalash + 32.2% Kharia @ 4.53
10 79.5% Punjabi + 20.5% Ust_Ishim @ 4.73
11 67.3% Kalash + 32.7% Ho @ 4.79
12 79.9% Burusho + 20.1% Paniyas @ 4.84
13 81.4% Burusho + 18.6% Puliyar @ 4.92
14 86.2% Punjabi + 13.8% Kusunda @ 5.05
15 89.9% Burusho + 10.1% Great_Andamanese @ 5.1
16 59.5% Punjabi + 40.5% Bengali @ 5.25
17 73.4% Pathan + 26.6% Paniyas @ 5.26
18 62.2% Bengali + 37.8% Tajik_Pomiri @ 5.35
19 57.2% Bengali + 42.8% Kalash @ 5.36
20 85.5% Burusho + 14.5% Papuan @ 5.45

I think the Oracle, must not be reliable in this case?

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:28 PM
No, Sikhs/Hindus/Christians of Peshawar. It seems that some speak Pashto as native tongue, while others speak Punjabi. It's interesting to know however, they identify as "Pashtun", which is quite odd.


https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/115042-For-Sikh-hakeems-Karachis-a-safer-alternative-to-Peshawar
https://tribune.com.pk/story/538810/multi-tongued-peshawars-happy-hindus-and-sikhs/
https://tribune.com.pk/story/505424/starting-over-in-a-violent-city-migrating-sikhs-find-peace/

I'd be damned

In most cases, our forefathers migrated to Peshawar some three or four generations ago. Since then we have been living here. We are Christians. We are Pakhtun but our association with Punjabi language is intact. Its what we speak at our homes, explained Pervaiz Arthur, one of the local Christians at the church.


All of them say they are proud Punjabi-speaking Pakhtun and feel safer in Peshawar than any other part of the country.



that's an oxymoron within Pashtun culture but hey who am I to point that out ;) Maybe the article is just rattling my mind. I have only been to Peshawar few times, never encountered these sorta people. I know of the transitional non-Pashtuns getting Pashtunfied but this is a whole new game. Oh Pakistan!


Sikh hakeems running their clinics in Pashtun-populated areas of Karachi.
This one I can attest.

Kulin
04-02-2017, 11:36 PM
^ This guy goes more extreme

Apart from his nine family members who live with him in Karachi, the rest are in Peshawar. “We are all Pashtuns and our forefathers came from Afghanistan. We are original Sikhs and have been strictly following our religion for centuries.”

:D

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:44 PM
Sure! My grandfather died at 74 and that was in 1998. So he'd be about 93 now if he was alive. My mother is more ethnic Indian, so I figured she'd setting my results off compared to maybe what others who are more Punjabi proper with Afghan would be. I did receive 35% Central Asian in my FTDNA and assumed it was from him, but that could've been my ignorance on Central Asian being commonplace? In some calculators it shows Pathan or 'Tajik Pomiri' in the 4 Oracle so I again probably wrongly took it as confirming my grandmother's story.

I think the Oracle, must not be reliable in this case?

Regarding that oracle, IIRC a lot of Indic members here got that as well. You can check and analyze.
ASI K9
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6112-Post-Eurasia-9-ASI-CHG-results/page29

I think your grandfather belonged to some hindustani group, could be a hindko or even a Kashmiri, etc I don't know tbh.
The oracles are not reliable most of the time. I wish you good luck though, hope you unlock the mystery.

Rukha
04-02-2017, 11:47 PM
Badakhshan is a Tajik-majority province but many other ethnic groups have settled there over the years. Many Badakhshis were part of the Mughal army and some settled in India such as the Persian poet Bedil's family. Some North Indians probably settled in Badakhshan during the Mughal administration of the region which could explain your grandfather's background. That wouldn't dovetail with the conversion story though.

surbakhunWeesste
04-02-2017, 11:54 PM
^ This guy goes more extreme

Apart from his nine family members who live with him in Karachi, the rest are in Peshawar. “We are all Pashtuns and our forefathers came from Afghanistan. We are original Sikhs and have been strictly following our religion for centuries.”

:D

Wait, so they are the original sikhs and their forefathers were all Pashtuns and came from Afghanistan! Sikhim was founded in Afghanistan? I had a good laugh but must be true :beerchug: need to dig fossils pronto

Thatagus
04-03-2017, 10:15 AM
I'd be damned




that's an oxymoron within Pashtun culture but hey who am I to point that out ;) Maybe the article is just rattling my mind. I have only been to Peshawar few times, never encountered these sorta people. I know of the transitional non-Pashtuns getting Pashtunfied but this is a whole new game. Oh Pakistan!



They were probably saying that to integrate or to avoid getting discrimanated against. Btw, there are Dari/Farsi speaking Pashtuns and Seraiki speaking Pashtuns, so how would that be an oxymoron?

pegasus
04-03-2017, 04:01 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.

Your whole family history sorry is quite wonky.
No way your paternal grandad is from Badkhashan , your Caucasus scores would be way higher and well the odds what you are saying are almost 0 .
A Chettri is from Nepal, and people there are incredibly endogamous so marrying a Chamar which is considered low caste ,again would be 0.
Stop trolling.

Aceharlock
04-03-2017, 04:06 PM
Based on your profile picture you could pass anywhere from Turkey to Northern India. But the pic isn't clear enough and I can't make a proper judgement based off it.

Also this story sounds odd. Hinduism and Buddhism flourished in what is now Afghanistan before Islam but for it to be the other way around seems very fishy. I am not sure about this story.

Koshur_Sam
04-03-2017, 04:23 PM
Me neither, that's really fascinating. I would've thought for sure English would've been implemented. Would ethnic Afghan Hindus have spoken Punjabi though? because my grandfather didn't seem to know any, just very broken. His Urdu was great apparently though. I feel like modern immigrants who are Punjabi would've spoken Punjabi, not original inhabitants?

I know Punjabi and I don't think I've heard Lala as being used for brother? I've heard pra and other equivalents. You sure Lala isn't part of any other language?

I live in a city full of Pashtun Hindko speakers and Punjabi Potohari speakers, they both use the word 'lala' which means brother, they use 'pra' as well but lala is the main word they use.

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 04:30 PM
Hi Pegasus, thanks for your answer! Like I said earlier my mother's side is the one claiming a Chettri and they're from Guyana so I don't think they follow caste rules like India does. They all got dumped there so I think they had slim pickings. As for the Badakshan story, I understand from what others are telling me here that something is off, so my grandmother either has dementia or she was lied to lol. I'm completely fine with whatever it is I am, don't care to claim anything else. I just put it out there whatever I was told, whether that is right or wrong is beyond me. It was only when other's were asking how it is possible that this grandfather could be Hindu yet Afghan, I just put out there what I thought. I've never met him, he's gone. Whether he was Hindu or not like my family claims, I also do not know. He could very well have been Muslim and no one saw him practice it and claimed otherwise. Your guess is as good as mine honestly. Also, my dad is Brahmin and my mom is Chamar. I'm sure many people who believe in the caste system say the odds of that happening are 0, but some people don't care and marry whomever. It's not all black and white. I'm not trolling, but ok. Thanks anyways!

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 04:33 PM
Thanks Aceharlock for your answer! Others have been telling me the same, so I don't doubt something is off. Again, this is something my grandmother said and she's illiterate so I'm sure someone had to have told her this and I think it would have to be my grandfather? My dad and his siblings don't care in the least about any of this stuff lol. I'm not understanding it either now, so at least I'm learning something here! I'm not well versed on either Indian or Afghan culture having grown up in America, so others here are informing me about lots that's going on with my family history.

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 04:35 PM
delete

bol_nat
04-03-2017, 04:47 PM
Do you get any afghan or muslim names in gedmatch.com DNA matches?

Aceharlock
04-03-2017, 05:56 PM
Can anyone in your family speak Tajik?

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 06:52 PM
Hi bol_nat, I don't think so? All my matches are white people? Or I'm assuming they're white due to their names lol.

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 06:54 PM
Aceharlock, I doubt it. The only person who spoke anything "foreign" was my grandfather and that's Farsi. I don't know if that's common elsewhere, but it seemed unique enough for my grandmother to mention it. I don't know any Punjabi's who speak it, but then again I'm not in a predominantly ethnic area either.

bol_nat
04-03-2017, 07:08 PM
Yes! They say he migrated from Afghanistan sometime before partition and worked for the Indian government on an Urdu newspaper/translation of some sort. I honestly don't know much about him because he died before I was born, but I have photos and stories told by my grandmother. I thought it would've been obvious from my FTDNA results? I didn't know Central Asian was a common thing in others of the subcontinent?
I'm sorry, I should've put that out there. I'm just used to referring to my dad as a Punjabi Brahmin because he's born in Punjab and a Brahmin lol.

As far as I know:

Paternal grandfather- Brahmin from Badakshan, Afghanistan. (Story goes he's acutally a convert to Hinduism and thus why he's Brahmin, but never met him so can't validate. Never heard of an Afghan Hindu so maybe it's true.)
Paternal grandmother- Punjabi Brahmin
Maternal grandfather- Supposedly Punjabi Chamar background
Maternal grandmother- mixed chamar and chettri (don't know if this is her way of saying Khatri or it's actually a thing). She does look like a more western Asian so not sure, if that means anything.

I don't think he was native of Badshakan because people there likely score 15%? south indian and much higher caucasian. He was most likely north indian brahmin. Your results seem to indicate brahmin/ chamar with bit of other Indian ethnicity.

bol_nat
04-03-2017, 07:32 PM
Hi bol_nat, I don't think so? All my matches are white people? Or I'm assuming they're white due to their names lol.

Usually people get matches of their ethnic group on top of the list but it depends because not many people from south asia are on gedmatch.

surbakhunWeesste
04-03-2017, 07:52 PM
They were probably saying that to integrate or to avoid getting discrimanated against. Btw, there are Dari/Farsi speaking Pashtuns and Seraiki speaking Pashtuns, so how would that be an oxymoron?
With that logic we might as well call a Bengali person with some Pashtun great/great grandfather a Pashtun. Being a Pashtun is a lifestyle in the tribal code sense. It means following the Pashtun culture, speaking the language, eating the food, etc etc. the Dari only speaking Pashtuns esp from Kabul and vicinity are getting h tajikfied and identify as one most of the time, it's just a matter of time. Pashtuns belong to a tribal confederation and there is a certain way of life. You can be living in a country where Pashto/Pashto is spoken yet you don't speak it, don't know the culture, might as well practice other culture(s) etc and yet be calling yourself a Pashtun! Based on what? Blood ties or via marriage?! That's the oxymoron I mentioned.
People as such can say they have some sort of Pashtun heritage but they ain't a Pashtun.

Kulin
04-03-2017, 07:56 PM
With that logic we might as well call a Bengali person with some Pashtun great/great grandfather a Pashtun as well! Being a Pashtun is a lifestyle in the tribal code sense. It means following the Pashtun culture, speaking the language, eating the food, etc etc. the Dari only speaking Pashtuns esp from Kabul and vicinity are getting h tajikfied and identify as one most of the time, it's just a matter of time. Pashtuns belong to a tribal confederation and there is a certain way of life. You can be living in a country where Pashto/Pashto is spoken yet you don't speak it, don't know the culture, might as well practice other cultute(s) etc and yet be calling yourself a Pashtun! Based on what? Blood ties or via marriage?! That's an oxymoron.
People as such can say they have Pashtun heritage but they ain't a Pashtun.

Well, he's kinda' right though, there are Niazis in Northwest Punjab who speak Seraiki, and there are also Jadoons and Tanolis in Hazara who speak Hinko as native tongue predominantly, and they're counted as Pashtuns. I bet they follow "Pashtunwali" though, even though they live in Punjabi majority areas.

Aceharlock
04-03-2017, 08:19 PM
With that logic we might as well call a Bengali person with some Pashtun great/great grandfather a Pashtun as well! Being a Pashtun is a lifestyle in the tribal code sense. It means following the Pashtun culture, speaking the language, eating the food, etc etc. the Dari only speaking Pashtuns esp from Kabul and vicinity are getting h tajikfied and identify as one most of the time, it's just a matter of time. Pashtuns belong to a tribal confederation and there is a certain way of life. You can be living in a country where Pashto/Pashto is spoken yet you don't speak it, don't know the culture, might as well practice other culture(s) etc and yet be calling yourself a Pashtun! Based on what? Blood ties or via marriage?! That's an oxymoron.
People as such can say they have some sort of Pashtun heritage but they ain't a Pashtun.

Yeah I agree with that too. Pashtun is a way of lifestyle.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-03-2017, 08:25 PM
Me neither, that's really fascinating. I would've thought for sure English would've been implemented. Would ethnic Afghan Hindus have spoken Punjabi though? because my grandfather didn't seem to know any, just very broken. His Urdu was great apparently though. I feel like modern immigrants who are Punjabi would've spoken Punjabi, not original inhabitants?

I know Punjabi and I don't think I've heard Lala as being used for brother? I've heard pra and other equivalents. You sure Lala isn't part of any other language?

Lala is used in Punjab for Hindu shopkeepers mainly.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-03-2017, 09:22 PM
Hi Reza, thanks for your reply! That's what I was wondering as well. I just talked to my grandmother (mom's side) yesterday and she said my grandfather was Chamar, her father is chamar and her mother is Chettri. I tried to ask her if she meant Khatri, since that's what I'm familiar with and she said no it's Chettri. I'm just spelling it how I phonetically heard it. If it's actually a nepalese caste, that would explain why she looks asian lol. Would the higher SI mean that my mother is something other than Chamar?

She's the only side with the mystery background so I'm going to say it's her contributing that. There was talk about leaving from Calcutta, but I don't think they were from there. My grandmother's last name is Mohabir and was told once that it's Bengali for Mahaveer? Don't know if that's true or someone playing with me. My mom's side has been in Guyana for about 3-4 generations now. Going through family history with my Nani it seems like both sides are chamar for the most part and one great-great grandmother from Madras supposedly that married a chettri when she came to Guyana? She was referred to as 'achama' so I don't know if that's an indicator of someplace. Grandfather's side it's said they were Punjabi chamar's, can't validate though because he's not alive. I don't even know who they mixed with other than they were all Indian of some sort.

Bit strange that your mom's side has been in Guyana for just 3-4 generations. They must have been there longer? The indenture system of taking people to Guyana was stopped in 1918 apparently.

I believe you are telling this story honestly as per what you have been told by your grandmother or others in your family, but I have doubts that your father's side is really Brahmin. Brahmins were (still can be) very strict about marriage. Your grandfather came over from Afghanistan sometime before partition, and got married to your Brahmin grandmother without her family checking anything about his background? Brahmins at that time (even now) would have checked all sorts of things about the man's background to make sure he was Brahmin, like Janam Kundali etc. They did not marry anyone who came along just like that. Though if your grandmother's family were very hard up then perhaps they might have allowed your grandmother to marry in that way, but even then it would be very unusual for that time.

Wiki:

Unlike the African slaves, the East Indian indentured workers were permitted to retain some of their cultural traditions. But the process of assimilation has made the culture of the modern Indo-Guyanese more homogeneous than that of their caste-conscious immigrant ancestors.[26]

Cultural origins and religion[edit]
Between 1838 and 1917 over 500 ship voyages with 238,909 indentured Indian immigrants came to Guyana; while just 75,898 of them or their children returned. The vast majority came from the Hindustani (or Hindi) speaking areas of North India. The most popular dialect spoken was Bhojpuri (spoken in east Uttar Pradesh and west Bihar), followed by Awadhi (spoken in central Uttar Pradesh). 62% of the immigrants came from districts that are now part of the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh; 21% from districts that are now part of Bihar state; 6% were from pre-partitioned Bengal; 3% from what are today Orissa and Jharkhand states; 3% from what is today Tamil Nadu state; 3% from Central India, 1% from pre-partitioned Punjab - and the remaining 1% from the rest of India.[citation needed] (96.8% of all the Indian Immigrants to Guyana left from the port of Calcutta in North India, and 3.2% from the port of Madras in South India)[27]

The religious breakdown was 85% Hindu, 15% Muslims.[27]

Indenture documents show Hindu by caste: 11% were Brahmin, Bhumihar, Chatri, Rajput and Thakur castes; 1% were of the merchant or writer castes; 30% were of the medium agricultural castes; 9% were of the artisan castes; 2% were of the petty trading castes; 2% were of fishermen and boatmen castes; 25% were from menial or dalit castes; 3% were Hindus who were Madrasis; 2% were Hill Coolies or Tribals. The only acknowledgment the colonial government and the plantation managers gave to caste differences was their distrust of the Brahmins as potential leaders.[citation needed]

East Indian workers were housed together and placed in work gangs without consideration of caste, and no solidified caste groups survived the early colonial period.[citation needed]

btw, Pashtuns and Pathans were also amongst the indentured people who went to Guyana.
"Clearly we see Afghans (Pathan) clan among the indentured immigrants. "
http://www.afghanland.com/culture/guyana.html

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 09:52 PM
deleted

surbakhunWeesste
04-03-2017, 10:37 PM
Well, he's kinda' right though, there are Niazis in Northwest Punjab who speak Seraiki, and there are also Jadoons and Tanolis in Hazara who speak Hinko as native tongue predominantly, and they're counted as Pashtuns. I bet they follow "Pashtunwali" though, even though they live in Punjabi majority areas.

The Pakistani Niazi who speak punjabi aren't ethnic Pashtuns anymore, they don't marry with other tribal Pashtuns but rather with Punjabis and Niazis like themselves and on top of that their culture is generic Pakistani since that country has many groups getting assimilated, the Jadoon/Gadoon are quite scattered and there are those who are still following Pashtun culture and those are those who don't. Many Seriaki are a transitional group, many identify as Pashtuns and follow the culture.
For example, even within my tribe we have Popals esp. from Kabul who aren't Pashtuns anymore as they have fully assimilated within the Tajik like culture. Most don't even identify as Pashtuns, its just the last name that they use. They will just call themselves Afghan.
Not sure how you being a non Pashtun and that too away from that area are being able to clarify much about the people you mentioned above, Unless you have Pashtun family members or non pashtun(relatives) from the area! or unless you are one ;)
The Pakistani Pashtuns in Pakistan who really follow Pashtunwali are in FATA, Balochistan, Peshawar the ethnic Yousefzais mostly...The KPK area is a weird place, you would know what I mean if you've ever visited that place and interacted with the real people there. Many 'Pakhtuns' there are just gonna be another set of Pathans from Bangladesh/India soon. I can be in Quetta and be able to identify with a Seriaki transition group rather than with someone from KPK which really happened in reality....

Or you can even say there must be a marginal difference between most Afghan Pashtuns vs Pakistani Pashtuns(save FATA), most Afghan Pashtun who are into the Pashtun culture can attest my point. I see that the way a person in Pakistan identifies as a Pakhtun is quite different than an Afghan one and it can be subjective. In the same way Tajikified Afghan Pashtuns are more Persian leaning, the Pakistani Pakhtuns are definitely Indic leaning.
People like Imran Khan aren't ethnic Pakhtun, he may have the Pakhtun heritage and that's about it, he is a Pakistani nationalist who strongly identifies with being a Pakistani patriot (nothing wrong with that) and maybe for many Pakistanis he is one but definitely not forvthe tribal ones on the either side of the border. Heck, he din't even care to learn the language or the culture!

Humans adapt to changes around them.

If you don't practice it you lose it.

Pakistani(nationality) Achakzai(Durrani) singing about being a Pashtun and Pashtun land, they don't care about the border and they follow the culture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTxidf5qVn4
They will say
Laar aw baar za yum Pashtun and they will call themselves Afghan(Pashtun)

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-03-2017, 10:44 PM
Thank for your post. I'm honestly just reeling at all this new information. Taking a family tree a couple days ago with my Nani and she said she was born in Guyana, her father born in Guyana, her Grandfather was born in Guyana and her Great-Grandfather came on the boat from India. Which part she does not know other than her father is Chamar and her Mother was Chetri (Idk if she's just saying it with a 'ch' and just means plain old Khatri or if it as listed in your post Chatri, when she said it to me it sounded like the word for Umbrella and not Khatri as we would pronounce it in Punjabi lol). My grandfather's side not much is known other than he's Chamar and supposedly told my mother when she was marrying a Punjabi to be 'careful' because whichever grandfather on his side came from India was Punjabi and had a family back home that he never provided for and settled in Guyana. So obviously despite these people living overseas, they've kept some information on caste and whatnot, but they just don't seem to care because they're more focused on marrying within the Indian diaspora at this point? Rather than going out an marrying Africans, Chinese, etc. I also was able to find his records from the National Archives of Guyana and it says he left on a boat from Calcutta in 1895 and is listed as Chamar. Idk if they're saying 'great-grandfather' when it's supposed to be a few more great's, I should do the math lol.

My father's mother is a Kalia from Sidhwan Dona in Punjab. Her family has a family tree in Haridwar and all that. She's a confirmed Brahmin, but my grandfather has no family book, no 'pind' (village), etc. The only people he had to vouch for his existence is his children and a couple old people who remember working with him on the newspaper. I also don't get if he's a native Indian, why he would speak Hindi with an accent? It sounds to me like he had a different first language, whatever it was. They ended up settling in Dhaliwal and he owned land there and took inventory in his later part of his life for the state govenment in collecting wheat. According to my dad, they don't have a last name on their birth certificate for whatever reason. All the girls have Sharma as a "last name" and the boys have "Kumar". According to my dad, this is common practice among Hindus in Punjab to differentiate among gender because the first names can be unisex. But for whatever reason my grandfather's name was Aamir Bhardwaj and was called "ved" by my grandmother. If he self adopted this name and never put it on their birth certificate makes no sense to me, so I'm going to go with that was his last name. Still doesn't explain to me why he wouldn't just give all his children that last name and would choose to keep it blank instead. My grandmother was very relaxed and it didn't seem to phase her when my dad called her from America saying he was marying a Guyanese Chamar girl ,so it seems to be like she was desensitized to caste already. As I was growing up, she only ever told my dad once that my brother and I took after my dad and in turn my grandfather in skin coloring because he was Pashtun. My dad tried to get more out of her because his dad was strict and wasn't a close dad to just tell them his life story. My dad says he knows my grandfather let my grandmother do religious stuff in the house and all that, but he never actively participated. He also knows he was an avid smoker and spoke with an accent and did speak Farsi and tried to teach them it. My grandmother never had contact with her family again after marrying and we still don't talk to that side for whatever reason, it's just tension between the two sides. Did she run away and get married? Did she even know who she was marrying? To me, it's just not making sense and I don't know about anyone else, but elders in my family at least just expect you to go with what they say and not question it. My grandmother is cool and I'll try to call her up and see if she'll talk, but it already seems like there's a secret she doesn't want to let out.

I really appreciate the article you've posted. Most people on this thread have been nothing, but helpful and I feel very grateful for that (despite all the comments on me 'trolling' lmao) I've only ever identified as Half Punjabi and Half Guyanese. It'd be cool to figure out what's going on here, but I doubt I'll find out unless she's on her deathbed and even if she says 100% he was Afghan or whatever else, I'm not going to start identifying as it, because that's not what I grew up as and I don't identify with it. I just wanted to put together a family tree and find out about my family and it's turned into this mess lol.

In which year did your grandmother marry your grandfather? Where did she meet him? I assume not in her village. You said she was illiterate.

Kalia is a Brahmin last name but recently I came across a website which also listed it as a Dalit (Chamar) name in Punjab. I think many Dalits dont really have a last name and then there is nothing to stop them using any name they want.

Bhardwaj is also a Brahmin. Since your grandmother never had contact with her family again, that means your grandfather was not accepted as a Brahmin by her family or they did not like he was a migrant from far away who they did not know anything about.

btw, my grandfather told me a Chamar ("Hindu") from our village migrated to Pakistan in 1947. For sometime afterwards he used to write letters back to the villagers written as poems with swear words against them. Who knows what he was calling himself there? Perhaps going around as a "Syed"?

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 11:07 PM
In or around 1942 or 1943. I know they were young, I think my grandfather was 18 or something like that and my grandmother was older by 4 years. She would sew and sell stuff in the market ( they had land and sold vegetables) so I'm guessing they would've met in Jalandhar since that's where they had a shop. My grandmother is Brahmin because it's already been validated that her father did priest work in her village and she comes from a long line of priests so no doubts there. Its interesting though that others use that name too. I know Jats use that name too for whatever reason.

That's really interesting. I'm sure he would've said something to fit in for sure given that the stakes were pretty high at the time if you said or said anything for people to not accept you? But I don't know if he thought he was slick if he did change his name cause he doesn't look Indian,judging by the photo they have hanging in the home when I last went to Punjab. But that's not to say he can't be Indian, just looks very atypical. It seems like they would've ran away and got married or something if their parents are pissed. Maybe I should just ask that side why they don't like us and see what they say lol.

surbakhunWeesste
04-03-2017, 11:23 PM
Thank for your post. I'm honestly just reeling at all this new information. Taking a family tree a couple days ago with my Nani and she said she was born in Guyana, her father born in Guyana, her Grandfather was born in Guyana and her Great-Grandfather came on the boat from India. Which part she does not know other than her father is Chamar and her Mother was Chetri (Idk if she's just saying it with a 'ch' and just means plain old Khatri or if it as listed in your post Chatri, when she said it to me it sounded like the word for Umbrella and not Khatri as we would pronounce it in Punjabi lol). My grandfather's side not much is known other than he's Chamar and supposedly told my mother when she was marrying a Punjabi to be 'careful' because whichever grandfather on his side came from India was Punjabi and had a family back home that he never provided for and settled in Guyana. So obviously despite these people living overseas, they've kept some information on caste and whatnot, but they just don't seem to care because they're more focused on marrying within the Indian diaspora at this point? Rather than going out an marrying Africans, Chinese, etc. I also was able to find his records from the National Archives of Guyana and it says he left on a boat from Calcutta in 1895 and is listed as Chamar. Idk if they're saying 'great-grandfather' when it's supposed to be a few more great's, I should do the math lol.

My father's mother is a Kalia from Sidhwan Dona in Punjab. Her family has a family tree in Haridwar and all that. She's a confirmed Brahmin, but my grandfather has no family book, no 'pind' (village), etc. The only people he had to vouch for his existence is his children and a couple old people who remember working with him on the newspaper. I also don't get if he's a native Indian, why he would speak Hindi with an accent? It sounds to me like he had a different first language, whatever it was. They ended up settling in Dhaliwal and he owned land there and took inventory in his later part of his life for the state govenment in collecting wheat. According to my dad, they don't have a last name on their birth certificate for whatever reason. All the girls have Sharma as a "last name" and the boys have "Kumar". According to my dad, this is common practice among Hindus in Punjab to differentiate among gender because the first names can be unisex. But for whatever reason my grandfather's name was Aamir Bhardwaj and was called "ved" by my grandmother. If he self adopted this name and never put it on their birth certificate makes no sense to me, so I'm going to go with that was his last name. Still doesn't explain to me why he wouldn't just give all his children that last name and would choose to keep it blank instead. My grandmother was very relaxed and it didn't seem to phase her when my dad called her from America saying he was marying a Guyanese Chamar girl ,so it seems to be like she was desensitized to caste already.
As I was growing up, she only ever told my dad once that my brother and I took after my dad and in turn my grandfather in skin coloring because he was Pashtun.

Vague because Pashtuns come in all colors and shouldn't be used as an indicator for Pashtun-ness lolz


My dad tried to get more out of her because his dad was strict and wasn't a close dad to just tell them his life story. My dad says he knows my grandfather let my grandmother do religious stuff in the house and all that, but he never actively participated. He also knows he was an avid smoker and spoke with an accent and did speak Farsi and tried to teach them it. My grandmother never had contact with her family again after marrying and we still don't talk to that side for whatever reason, it's just tension between the two sides. Did she run away and get married? Did she even know who she was marrying? To me, it's just not making sense and I don't know about anyone else, but elders in my family at least just expect you to go with what they say and not question it. My grandmother is cool and I'll try to call her up and see if she'll talk, but it already seems like there's a secret she doesn't want to let out.

I really appreciate the article you've posted. Most people on this thread have been nothing, but helpful and I feel very grateful for that (despite all the comments on me 'trolling' lmao) I've only ever identified as Half Punjabi and Half Guyanese. It'd be cool to figure out what's going on here, but I doubt I'll find out unless she's on her deathbed and even if she says 100% he was Afghan or whatever else, I'm not going to start identifying as it, because that's not what I grew up as and I don't identify with it. I just wanted to put together a family tree and find out about my family and it's turned into this mess lol.

You can identify as a Pashtun if you are practicing the Pashtun way of life,and the trolling stuff you mentioned has to do with race boards, you can just ignore that. I am originally from New York and we have tons of Guyanese, Trinidadians etc in the Bronx and the Queens, they are mostly from the northern Hindustani area with Caribbean mix but can speak the indic language and their culture had Indic elements as well. They seem to spend days party- picnicking a lot esp on the parks :P


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-c_J59UITA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJJBNhc8SU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVsvrZKnA7k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okk4ZaLniU8

I believe that you are trying to find your roots and you seem to be a novice, you will discover a lot on your way. If your grandfather identified as a Pashtun and was living his life the Pashtun way then he was one, no Pashtun will ever bat an eye. In your tribal culture we have had many people who got assimilated and started living as a unit as in a confederation: folklore has it that one of the Pashtun tribes (Karlani) was started by an adopted son.

However, if your Grandfather was an ethnic Afghan and was born/lived in a foreign country(west) and started practicing a different religion or way of life, it would have made sense with the conversion to Hinduism, still converting to a Bhramin doesn't make sense because one gets born as a Bhramin esp for a the longest time in the Hindu history now and they have something called the gotra system which they get born into, one cannot adopt a new gotra just for the sake of it, women get married and the child takes the father's gotra and Bhramins are quite strict with that (that's per my knowledge of their system) maybe more bhramins here can clarify that!

Genetically you don't seem to have Afghan Pashtun or any other recent Iranic lineage as far as I can tell.

There is a saying
"Pashtun is not merely a race but, in fact, a state of mind; there is a Pashtun lying inside every man, who at times wakes up and overpowers him."
Ghani Khan

"A man's ethnic identity has more to do with personal awareness than with geography" Saroyan

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-03-2017, 11:33 PM
In or around 1942 or 1943. I know they were young, I think my grandfather was 18 or something like that and my grandmother was older by 4 years. She would sew and sell stuff in the market ( they had land and sold vegetables) so I'm guessing they would've met in Jalandhar since that's where they had a shop. My grandmother is Brahmin because it's already been validated that her father did priest work in her village and she comes from a long line of priests so no doubts there. Its interesting though that others use that name too. I know Jats use that name too for whatever reason.

That's really interesting. I'm sure he would've said something to fit in for sure given that the stakes were pretty high at the time if you said or said anything for people to not accept you? But I don't know if he thought he was slick if he did change his name cause he doesn't look Indian,judging by the photo they have hanging in the home when I last went to Punjab. But that's not to say he can't be Indian, just looks very atypical. It seems like they would've ran away and got married or something if their parents are pissed. Maybe I should just ask that side why they don't like us and see what they say lol.

I guess your grandmother has told you most of what she knows about your grandfather. It could be worth talking to her relatives in the village.

Kalia name I do not think is used by Jatts. I have never yet come across any Jatt with that last name. Might be used as a nickname for someone with a dark skin I suppose. Jatts have name Khella or similar spellings which is pronounced differently to Kalia.

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 11:41 PM
Thanks for your post. I don't identify with being Pasthun however, my grandfather did. Like you said though, if my grandfather was alive and had an influence in my life and raised me with Pashtun values, I of course would identify with it. In regards to the idea that he converted, that was just a hypothesis I had. I don't have proof that is what he did and based on what my dad has told me it would seem he never partook in Hindu rituals so that would seem odd to me if he was Hindu and wouldn't join my grandmother in prayers, etc.
In regards to converting to a Bramhin, that's just all stories my aunt's have said, probably like me, in an effort to explain how an Afghan would have a Hindu last name. I was told by them also that people who convert have to be part of the caste system and so they're usually ushered in as Bramhin's. I don't know if this is true, that's just what I've heard. Of course, I could change my name to Khan tomorrow and go around acting like something I'm not, learn up on it and no one would tell me anything to my face. Not saying that he did that, but people do weird things. If my genetics show that I don't have an Afghan Pashtun, then that's good to know. I've never identified with it so it doesn't make me feel any sort of way, it's just good to know what's going on with that. Thanks for your answer!

Leo Scorpio
04-03-2017, 11:44 PM
I've met people in the village we live in now that are Jatt's with the name Kalia? Also, my dad has a few friends he used to work with in NY that are Jats with the last name Kalia. Guess people are doing all sorts of things in Punjab lol. I've always felt that for the most part, people in Punjab just don't care about caste as much as the rest of India, since they rely more on a Punjabi identity. My dad's brother is married to a Sikh so is one of my aunt's, no one bats an eye. Maybe caste is moreso someone's identity in other part's of India.

Kulin
04-03-2017, 11:46 PM
I've met people in the village we live in now that are Jatt's with the name Kalia? Also, my dad has a few friends he used to work with in NY that are Jats with the last name Kalia. Guess people are doing all sorts of things in Punjab lol. I've always felt that for the most part, people in Punjab just don't care about caste as much as the rest of India, since they rely more on a Punjabi identity. My dad's brother is married to a Sikh so is one of my aunt's, no one bats an eye. Maybe caste is moreso someone's identity in other part's of India.

Most probably don't care much about tribe/caste, except Jatts of course who'll always express their Jattitude everywhere :lol: .

Leo Scorpio
04-04-2017, 12:17 AM
This is gold :lol:

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 12:38 AM
This is gold :lol:

I guess your story is all made up then?

Kalia is a very Brahmin name.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 12:39 AM
-deleted-

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 12:40 AM
Most probably don't care much about tribe/caste, except Jatts of course who'll always express their Jattitude everywhere :lol: .

Poor comment buddy.

Kulin
04-04-2017, 12:43 AM
Poor comment buddy.

Lol I didn't mean any offence, but its the truth though xD

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 12:57 AM
I've met people in the village we live in now that are Jatt's with the name Kalia? Also, my dad has a few friends he used to work with in NY that are Jats with the last name Kalia. Guess people are doing all sorts of things in Punjab lol. I've always felt that for the most part, people in Punjab just don't care about caste as much as the rest of India, since they rely more on a Punjabi identity. My dad's brother is married to a Sikh so is one of my aunt's, no one bats an eye. Maybe caste is moreso someone's identity in other part's of India.

What is the name and district of the village?

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 12:58 AM
Lol I didn't mean any offence, but its the truth though xD

You have a lot to learn about things my friend. ;)

Leo Scorpio
04-04-2017, 02:14 AM
How did you get to the conclusion? I know Kalia is a very Bramhin last name, my grandmother has it. I was responding to your comment that Jatt's don't use the name Kalia with the anecdote that I've met some to know that's untrue. What they're doing with that name I don't know and not for me to judge. Doesn't discredit the fact that they exist.

Leo Scorpio
04-04-2017, 02:16 AM
Dhaliwal district Jalandhar. Grandmother's village that we also spend time in is Sidhwan Dhona, district Kapurthala. You think I'm making this up too? lol. I'm a full time nursing student who works 2 jobs. I have better things to do than sit here and make crap up. I agree that I don't know a thing about my mother's side or my grandfather's side, but I've been to Punjab almost every summer. I know where my dad grew up and where his mother is from at the very least. :lol:

Leo Scorpio
04-04-2017, 02:21 AM
I don't get it? I associate Jatt's with being proud of what they are and firm in their beliefs. Like most Punjabi's. Not seeing how the original comment was distasteful in the least. Kulin's point was that Jatt's are proud of being Jatt and show it loud and proud. That's not something I think a Jatt would be ashamed of. That's like someone calling a Punjabi loud. We know it and don't care lol. Regardless, if you took offense then I apologize.

Leo Scorpio
04-04-2017, 02:54 AM
Thanks to everyone for their replies! I joined the forum after getting my results because I wanted an objective view on what this all meant admixture wise. It ended up deviating from that and becoming an analysis of my family background. Which is great because it made me really question my families stories, but I think it started to feel like I was being attacked for not knowing the complete story of what's going on and I shared too much family information on here also which is inappropriate. Plus I think I've had enough of this site to last me a good while. Didn't just want to up and leave the thread or stop responding without telling everyone thanks! :)

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 06:41 AM
How did you get to the conclusion? I know Kalia is a very Bramhin last name, my grandmother has it. I was responding to your comment that Jatt's don't use the name Kalia with the anecdote that I've met some to know that's untrue. What they're doing with that name I don't know and not for me to judge. Doesn't discredit the fact that they exist.

Jatt's dont use Kalia last name in Punjab, but like I said anyone can use any name in some place. I can tell you it wont be accepted as a Jatt name if someone comes along like your grandfather saying I am "Kalia" Jatt.

Nobody can convert and become a Brahmin. How come your family didnt tell you that? Not sure what to make of your story.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 06:48 AM
Dhaliwal district Jalandhar. Grandmother's village that we also spend time in is Sidhwan Dhona, district Kapurthala. You think I'm making this up too? lol. I'm a full time nursing student who works 2 jobs. I have better things to do than sit here and make crap up. I agree that I don't know a thing about my mother's side or my grandfather's side, but I've been to Punjab almost every summer. I know where my dad grew up and where his mother is from at the very least. :lol:

Looks like at least some of your story is made up. :lol:
I came across an Indian origin lady one time from Guyana or Trinidad, who would insist she was "Red Indian, not Indian" if anyone said she was "Indian" but we all knew she was not Red Indian.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 09:10 AM
Dhaliwal district Jalandhar. Grandmother's village that we also spend time in is Sidhwan Dhona, district Kapurthala. You think I'm making this up too? lol. I'm a full time nursing student who works 2 jobs. I have better things to do than sit here and make crap up. I agree that I don't know a thing about my mother's side or my grandfather's side, but I've been to Punjab almost every summer. I know where my dad grew up and where his mother is from at the very least. :lol:

Our relatives live near Dhaliwal. Next time I go there I will check out the Kalia Jatts. :lol:

bol_nat
04-04-2017, 01:53 PM
Our relatives live near Dhaliwal. Next time I go there I will check out the Kalia Jatts. :lol:

Maybe it's Kaila jatts or something else. Why do you think she's trolling jatts? Because it does look like jatt surname just very rare.

http://www.punjabi.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1775

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 09:35 PM
Maybe it's Kaila jatts or something else. Why do you think she's trolling jatts? Because it does look like jatt surname just very rare.

http://www.punjabi.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1775

I have seen that link before. I think Kaila is probably same as Khella, its just been spelt differently in English because it cannot be written exactly in English as pronounced in Punjabi. In our home place we have one family named Khella. Some time back they moved there for some reason from their own village.

About Kalia name, I see a lot of Dalits with this name. I dont know how or why they have same name as Brahmins in this case. Say no more on that!. I did nor find any Jatts in my search. Perhaps there are some using this name, but I am doubtful or she might have misunderstood or there could be another explanation like bad spelling in English etc etc e.g sometimes people use a last name which is not their real clan name - Karnail Singh Peer Mohammad. He has put his village name as his last name.

Some of the things she wrote, lead people to think she was trolling. To avoid that she needed to research a few things first before saying them (like saying you can convert and become a Brahmin).