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homosapien
04-04-2017, 03:29 AM
Hi,

This paper was way back in 2009, is this still relevant?

"The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system"
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/full/jhg20082a.html

Can some folks please throw some light on the shortcomings or drawbacks of this paper, if / why it did not become mainstream.


Thanks,

parasar
04-04-2017, 03:40 AM
Hi,

This paper was way back in 2009, is this still relevant?

"The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system"
http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v54/n1/full/jhg20082a.html

Can some folks please throw some light on the shortcomings or drawbacks of this paper, if / why it did not become mainstream.


Thanks,

No, not relevant.
It was a poor paper even for its time - no STRs were published to enable one to verify the claims made.

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 09:38 AM
No, not relevant.
It was a poor paper even for its time - no STRs were published to enable one to verify the claims made.

You could try to contact authors. They said in paper: (Y-STR haplotypes data are available through personal communication)

homosapien
04-04-2017, 01:15 PM
Thanks Parasar

I dont see a reason to doubt your input, as I find you quite knowlegible and neutral. Most of what I know about this subclade R1a, I have read about in the last month or so out of curiosity, before that I just knew about OOA and the route they took. I did realize later why R1a has become so much debated and theorized as to its origins, since it has come to be associated with the spread of IE.

Most recent studies which have been cited the most have tried to point to a place which is politically neutral, so it becomes puzzling whether we are seeing political correctness or rather it is the result of the data they have on hands.

As per you and the current data what do you think about the origins, spread split and how it arrived at the current modern distribution.

Thanks,

parasar
04-04-2017, 05:19 PM
You could try to contact authors. They said in paper: (Y-STR haplotypes data are available through personal communication)

Contacted them.
There are few errors they said they would correct and add STRs in a supplement.
The STRs were not provided.

IMO, the paper's credibility is suspect.

parasar
04-04-2017, 05:50 PM
Thanks Parasar

I dont see a reason to doubt your input, as I find you quite knowlegible and neutral. Most of what I know about this subclade R1a, I have read about in the last month or so out of curiosity, before that I just knew about OOA and the route they took. I did realize later why R1a has become so much debated and theorized as to its origins, since it has come to be associated with the spread of IE.

Most recent studies which have been cited the most have tried to point to a place which is politically neutral, so it becomes puzzling whether we are seeing political correctness or rather it is the result of the data they have on hands.

As per you and the current data what do you think about the origins, spread split and how it arrived at the current modern distribution.

Thanks,

Thanks!

First, limiting to Z645 - its two main branches Z283 and Z93 have a Corded Ware and steppe presence respectively. For Z283, the connection of Corded Ware to Yamna having being posited, implies a steppe origin for Z283 too. The parallel line to Z645 - CTS4385 - also shows up in Corded Ware. So the distribution of these three lines in ancient dna, which encompass ~100% of all R1a, leaves little doubt that the Corded Ware to steppe zone is where they emerged and spread from. For Z94 the 5000ybp time-frame of Poltavka Outlier supports that Z94 originated with him or his close relatives.

As far as R1a is concerned its place of origin is not clear to me. R1a has been found over a vast region. Baikal MA1 was a pre-R derivative. R1b V88-L389- lines are present in the Indian Subcontinent. R2/R2a was present in neolithic Iran. Vilabruna was R1b but shows evidence of an intrusive element to both Europe and the Near East. So right now for R1a my best guess is in the northern vicinity of the Indian Subcontinent - NW China, Russian Turkestan, etc.

homosapien
04-04-2017, 06:32 PM
Thanks!

So your guess is in the vicinity of North India and Steppe.

Do you have any views about the characterization of the steppe nomads , as they are usually characterized as mobile and war like.

This is one recent theory paper which also looks at them in the same way.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E/core-reader

However I am unable to draw any parallels to the steppe nomads to a rich language like IE/Sanskrit (language development is usually linked with agricultural/sedentary folks than nomads) and the composition of deep philosophical poetries like the vedas/avesta, which going by typical maslows hierarchy of needs, only when basic needs are met does the human proceeds towards the higher levels, which fits in well with the prosperity the IVC folks enjoyed, what is your view?

(!)--SSA--(!)
04-04-2017, 06:52 PM
Contacted them.
There are few errors they said they would correct and add STRs in a supplement.
The STRs were not provided.

IMO, the paper's credibility is suspect.

For South Asia region the R1a that is present in some tribal people like Chenchus, is it of the same branch, age and closely related to the R1a that is present in others like Brahmins?

parasar
04-04-2017, 08:08 PM
For South Asia region the R1a that is present in some tribal people like Chenchus, is it of the same branch, age and closely related to the R1a that is present in others like Brahmins?

Yes. Under Z94: L657, Y40 and Z2124. There may be sporadic Z93* present too.

homosapien
04-05-2017, 05:49 PM
Thanks!

So your guess is in the vicinity of North India and Steppe.

Do you have any views about the characterization of the steppe nomads , as they are usually characterized as mobile and war like.

This is one recent theory paper which also looks at them in the same way.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E/core-reader

However I am unable to draw any parallels to the steppe nomads to a rich language like IE/Sanskrit (language development is usually linked with agricultural/sedentary folks than nomads) and the composition of deep philosophical poetries like the vedas/avesta, which going by typical maslows hierarchy of needs, only when basic needs are met does the human proceeds towards the higher levels, which fits in well with the prosperity the IVC folks enjoyed, what is your view?

Hi Parasar, any input on this query? appreciate it.

Wanted to send a PM, but couldnt due to low number of posts.

parasar
04-06-2017, 06:58 PM
Thanks!

So your guess is in the vicinity of North India and Steppe.

Do you have any views about the characterization of the steppe nomads , as they are usually characterized as mobile and war like.

This is one recent theory paper which also looks at them in the same way.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/retheorising-mobility-and-the-formation-of-culture-and-language-among-the-corded-ware-culture-in-europe/E35E6057F48118AFAC191BDFBB1EB30E/core-reader

However I am unable to draw any parallels to the steppe nomads to a rich language like IE/Sanskrit (language development is usually linked with agricultural/sedentary folks than nomads) and the composition of deep philosophical poetries like the vedas/avesta, which going by typical maslows hierarchy of needs, only when basic needs are met does the human proceeds towards the higher levels, which fits in well with the prosperity the IVC folks enjoyed, what is your view?

Not sure how much they are linked. But if the experts can show they definitively are, then it would mean R1a-Z94 lineage was not Vedic Indo-Aryan.

homosapien
04-07-2017, 02:53 PM
Hopefully Bronze Age ADNA from South Asia should also be helpful to resolve some of the mystery.

Mixed
05-07-2017, 07:29 PM
Ok. I am R-M517. Didn't that originate in Persia?