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Titus Valerius
06-15-2013, 06:17 AM
Hi all!
where did H1c originate? Does anyone know?
I'm H1c4b and my earliest known ancestor was from Sestri Levante (Genoa, Italy). Her name was Maria Capello b.1642 d. 1734.
My best regards.

Titus Valerius
06-15-2013, 06:34 AM
Sorry, correct date of birth is 1662

Rathna
06-15-2013, 07:18 AM
Hi all!
where did H1c originate? Does anyone know?
I'm H1c4b and my earliest known ancestor was from Sestri Levante (Genoa, Italy). Her name was Maria Capello b.1642 d. 1734.
My best regards.

Sample Id: MC170 ( Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C G5744A A16284G)
MC1575 (yours) 309.1C 315.1C 522.1A 522.2C G5744A A16284G
MC1941 JQ703499 A9007G; G9380A; C12401T;
MC2820 JQ704378
MC4336 JQ705894 Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A12366G; T16093Y;
Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T(L2'3'4'5'6)

These are the samples of Behar 2012b. I'd say that the most ancient is this: MC2820 JQ704378
Who is he/she? He/she is clone="5104" given by FTDNA to Behar.

Rathna
06-15-2013, 07:37 AM
I don't know if you have seen that there is a perfect match between MC170 and you.

Titus Valerius
06-15-2013, 09:46 AM
But where does he?

Solothurn
06-15-2013, 09:48 AM
Hi

IMHO H1c 'originated' in Eastern Europe or farther east. The samples are vastly under represented in Bulgaria, Romania, Anatolia and surrounding areas.

The latest Geno 2.0 chip won't help this cause either, my results only show H1. Although I haven't yet looked at my data!

Just my opinion though :)



Hi all!
where did H1c originate? Does anyone know?
I'm H1c4b and my earliest known ancestor was from Sestri Levante (Genoa, Italy). Her name was Maria Capello b.1642 d. 1734.
My best regards.

Rathna
06-15-2013, 10:56 AM
But where does he?
What did you want to say? Where does he come from? I don't know. These samples are from Behar 2012b, and are encrypted. Certainly they are people tested by FTDNA and passed to Behar if not these samples are the same and are always you.

Titus Valerius
06-15-2013, 11:23 AM
Sorry for my broken English, I meant : where does the sample come? But as I imagined these samples are encrypted!

Rathna
06-15-2013, 11:55 AM
Sorry for my broken English, I meant : where does the sample come? But as I imagined these samples are encrypted!

MC are the samples from the Behar reassessment of the mtDNA tree. The other numbers (two letters and 6 numbers) are of course the GenBank submitted ones, but not all are known and neither their origin. Anyway we'll be able to know them next.

GailT
06-15-2013, 02:45 PM
You can see the country of origin of many of the samples on

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

I think that most of the H subclades expanded from the Near East during the Neolithic Revolution. It's age estimate of about 14,000 years for H and is explosive growth suggest that it expanded into Europe with farmers.

Titus Valerius
06-15-2013, 03:08 PM
Hi , thanks for the information!


You can see the country of origin of many of the samples on

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

I think that most of the H subclades expanded from the Near East during the Neolithic Revolution. It's age estimate of about 14,000 years for H and is explosive growth suggest that it expanded into Europe with farmers.

Rathna
06-15-2013, 03:17 PM
You can see the country of origin of many of the samples on

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

I think that most of the H subclades expanded from the Near East during the Neolithic Revolution. It's age estimate of about 14,000 years for H and is explosive growth suggest that it expanded into Europe with farmers.

You know that not everybody agrees with this theory. The recent paper of Boattini et alii thinks that H1 and H3 are more ancient in Italy than in every other place and the paper of Pemberton et alii has demonstrated (I think really, as based on 645 STRs, mainly autosomal) that Tuscany has been peopled at the same time of all the other countries from Middle East to India, then probably some man and some woman there were there, and probably many Y and many mt you (and all the others) think having come from Middle East, probably also the H1c4 of my friend Titus Valerius.

AJL
06-16-2013, 12:24 AM
You know that not everybody agrees with this theory

I think what you actually mean is that you don't agree with it, which you've already made quite clear.

Note that Pemberton merely show Tuscans as an early spur on the branching-off point between West/South Asians on the one hand and Near Easterners and Europeans on the other. This does not imply that Near Easterners and Europeans descend from Tuscans, any more than it implies that all humans descend from chimps, who have the earliest branching-off point with humans.

Rathna
06-16-2013, 04:52 AM
I think what you actually mean is that you don't agree with it, which you've already made quite clear.

Note that Pemberton merely show Tuscans as an early spur on the branching-off point between West/South Asians on the one hand and Near Easterners and Europeans on the other. This does not imply that Near Easterners and Europeans descend from Tuscans, any more than it implies that all humans descend from chimps, who have the earliest branching-off point with humans.

Of course what you are saying is meaningful, but you should also say that from these data (if they are reliable, and of course we may discuss about them) this implies that Tuscans don't descend from Middle Easterners, and less in recent times like the neolithic.
I was just saying that someone lived in Tuscany 40,000 years ago and that Tuscans (i.e at least all Western Italians (the Tirrenians)) descend autosomally from them. I could add that as I am R-L23/Z2105* and K1a1b1e, my cousin R-M269/DYS462=12 (probably that cluster we found now in all the Jewish/Balkan cluster), my father was mt H41a, my cousin H6a1 etc etc I may think that these haplogroups (and of course many others) are here from very ancient times. You know that my theories are based on solid data I am being giving from many years on many forums. But I have always said that I am waiting willing the aDNA and then we'll see who is right and who is wrong.

GailT
06-16-2013, 02:55 PM
This is an old debate, but I believe it is close to resolution. In the first wave of mtDNA and y-DNA testing, researchers found high percentages of mtDNA H and y-DNA R1b in Europe, so they concluded that these were the original Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. There was never any good science to support this theory, it was simply based on the belief that migration plays a small role in present day population distributions.

We now know that the opposite is true, that there have been multiple waves of significant population migrations that largely replaced earlier haplogroups. Both the age estimate of mtDNA H and the lack of H in Paleolithic & Mesolithic remains show that H was not in Europe before the LGM. I think it is still possible that some mtDNA H could have arrived in Europe before the Neolithic, there have been some reports of H in Mesolithic Italy. But if H was in Europe before the Neolithic, it seems to have been limited to southern Europe. More testing of ancient remains will give a more precise view of the migrations of H. But in my opinion, the explosive growth of mtDNA H in the early Neolithic indicates that most H subclades probably originated in Neolithic farmers and herders.

J Man
06-16-2013, 09:19 PM
This is an old debate, but I believe it is close to resolution. In the first wave of mtDNA and y-DNA testing, researchers found high percentages of mtDNA H and y-DNA R1b in Europe, so they concluded that these were the original Paleolithic haplogroups in Europe. There was never any good science to support this theory, it was simply based on the belief that migration plays a small role in present day population distributions.

We now know that the opposite is true, that there have been multiple waves of significant population migrations that largely replaced earlier haplogroups. Both the age estimate of mtDNA H and the lack of H in Paleolithic & Mesolithic remains show that H was not in Europe before the LGM. I think it is still possible that some mtDNA H could have arrived in Europe before the Neolithic, there have been some reports of H in Mesolithic Italy. But if H was in Europe before the Neolithic, it seems to have been limited to southern Europe. More testing of ancient remains will give a more precise view of the migrations of H. But in my opinion, the explosive growth of mtDNA H in the early Neolithic indicates that most H subclades probably originated in Neolithic farmers and herders.

I also think that most of the H subclades that are present in Europeans today came to Europe during the Neolithic with farmers from the Near East. Either that or some H was also present in the Balkans during the Mesolithic and then they were assimilated into Neolithic cultures that spread out from the Balkans into the rest of Europe after they took up farming. There is one H sample from Mesolithic Karelia that is said to be from 7500 years BP. Some think this H sample came from contacts between farmers and hunter-gatherers though who did a bit of wife swapping.

zaru7
12-12-2014, 02:25 AM
I am chiming in over a year later I realize, but it is important to respond to the original poster's ask. H1c insofar as we know was extracted from the remains of Gokhem2 in Sweden. She is basal H1c, as am I. With that said, I have 20 exact matches on my FMS, and all who reported a MDKA come from Eastern Europe/Russia with the exception of 3 people. The heaviest concentration of H1c basal seems to cluster primarily in that area and gives us a good indication that perhaps there was a back migration from Sweden into the Baltics, because there seems to be minimal H1c in Finland.

Titus Valerius
12-21-2014, 07:29 AM
Hi, my ancestor may have come in Italy with the barbarian invasions (Goths or Lombards) . I've traced my maternal line to Sestri Levante (Genoa) in XVII sec.

leonardo
12-21-2014, 01:40 PM
You can see the country of origin of many of the samples on

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

I think that most of the H subclades expanded from the Near East during the Neolithic Revolution. It's age estimate of about 14,000 years for H and is explosive growth suggest that it expanded into Europe with farmers.

Thanks for the link Gail. My mtdna is H1c9a. My mtdna is derived from my Scottish - or probably Scottish through Ireland (Scots-Irish) relative. According to the website above, there are 6 samples: 2 with an unknown location; one from CA; one from the USA; one from England and one from Norway.

vettor
12-21-2014, 05:11 PM
You can see the country of origin of many of the samples on

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

I think that most of the H subclades expanded from the Near East during the Neolithic Revolution. It's age estimate of about 14,000 years for H and is explosive growth suggest that it expanded into Europe with farmers.

I do not really understand why you bother stating this site that uses the previous mtdna tree. The latest mtdna tree is from February 2014 and they use the previous tree from 2012

leonardo
12-21-2014, 06:25 PM
I do not really understand why you bother stating this site that uses the previous mtdna tree. The latest mtdna tree is from February 2014 and they use the previous tree from 2012

That is my fault vettor. Gail posted this in 2013. I just saw the post today and quoted her. So, in truth, her post was pre-2014. She therefore would not have known (unless she is a psychic) that a new tree was forthcoming at the time. Anyway, I received value from the link provided by Gail. Thanks again, Gail.

GailT
12-21-2014, 08:36 PM
I do not really understand why you bother stating this site that uses the previous mtdna tree. The latest mtdna tree is from February 2014 and they use the previous tree from 2012

The mtdnacommunity tree is out of date, but it does have country of origin information for the 2012 Behar samples that is not available anywhere else, and it also has results for more recent FTDNA FMS samples that have not yet been submitted to GenBank, so it is a very useful site even though FTDNA has not updated its mtDNA tree. Of course, for the most recent Phylotree one should use Manis van Oven's Phylotree, or the FTDNA mtDNA haplogroup project pages which in some cases have additional refinements in the tree.

Motzart
12-24-2014, 01:37 PM
Origin of H1c?

Funnel Beaker / TRB Sweden Frälsegården [passage grave] Gokhem [Gok 2] F 3500-2500 BC H1c Skoglund 2014

Farmer Germany Blätterhöhle [B]3418 ± 63 BC H1c3* 257G, 263G, 477C, 750G, 1438G, 3010A, 4769G, 8473C, 8860G, 15662G, 16519C Bollongino 2013

There is a lot of H1c in Sweden, there are several Swedish 23andme members all under H1c. My Mother's line is from Sweden as well. It fits with the Funnel Beaker find.

Solothurn
12-25-2014, 08:51 AM
Hi Motzart

I have a few H1c3b (T16189C, T16362C) FMS matches from Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands.

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

H1c Sweden analysis: http://www.fc.id.au/2014/11/gokhem2-ancient-dna-analysis.html

H1c9a Stambolovo, Bulgaria on there too!



Origin of H1c?

Funnel Beaker / TRB Sweden Frälsegården [passage grave] Gokhem [Gok 2] F 3500-2500 BC H1c Skoglund 2014

Farmer Germany Blätterhöhle [B]3418 ± 63 BC H1c3* 257G, 263G, 477C, 750G, 1438G, 3010A, 4769G, 8473C, 8860G, 15662G, 16519C Bollongino 2013

There is a lot of H1c in Sweden, there are several Swedish 23andme members all under H1c. My Mother's line is from Sweden as well. It fits with the Funnel Beaker find.

Lyrasong
01-11-2015, 04:56 AM
Greetings, Titus Valerius and all! I have been typed basically as 'H1c1' by 23andMe, and am still learning the ropes of how mtDNA may have migrated and morphed across time and space. Does anyone have thoughts about the the H1 subclade and its relationship to the patterns of autosomal DNA? For example, the MDLP K23b calculator indicates that the woman identified as 'Gökhem2,' whilst a member of a farming population, carried almost 20% of the legacy of European Hunter-Gatherers as her genetic inheritance. In addition, her results, as rendered by the Decodad V3 and Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 programs, appear to reflect strong ties to the West of Europe and to the Mediterranean. How could this be if her ancestors but recently (in genetic time) migrated from the Middle East to the contemporary Sweden? My guess is that we would need to assign her Mediterranean autosomal DNA to the eastern portion of that sea. Thanks in advance for your shared knowledge and clarification.

WilliamAllan
01-07-2016, 06:54 PM
I'm H1c (according to 23&Me).

The furthest back I can trace my direct maternal line is to a woman by the name of Sarah McFadyen/McFadden. My guess is she was from northern Ireland or maybe western Scotland (based on surname) but I only pick up on her trail in New Brunswick, Canada and later, Prince Edward Island.

Solothurn
01-07-2016, 07:18 PM
Hi

James Lick's hapmap utility may offer you more refinement. You have to run your mtdna data through it. I am H1c3b but only H1c at 23 too. On the utility it depends what no-calls you get at 23, but you may get lucky :)

http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/L

BTW I tested at FTDNA to get my result but it is possible to get it without as we have an unusual HVR1 marker

Solothurn
01-08-2016, 04:06 PM
Sorry two markers - 16189C and 16362C :)

Most of my matches are German, Scandinavian or Irish descent!

Helen
01-31-2016, 03:11 PM
Hi All,
I am H1c1a and my matriline is from the north of the Isle of Man in the area of Bride. The area was settled by the Vikings and I have exact matches in Sweden which may be relevant. I hope the Isle of Man gets tested soon for ancient DNA and not just the Y Line!

Mestace
02-01-2016, 07:45 AM
Hi All,
I am H1c1a and my matriline is from the north of the Isle of Man in the area of Bride. The area was settled by the Vikings and I have exact matches in Sweden which may be relevant. I hope the Isle of Man gets tested soon for ancient DNA and not just the Y Line!

Hello and welcome, may i ask you with wich company/test you got your mtDNA ?

AJL
02-02-2016, 04:00 PM
I'm H1c (according to 23&Me).

The furthest back I can trace my direct maternal line is to a woman by the name of Sarah McFadyen/McFadden. My guess is she was from northern Ireland or maybe western Scotland (based on surname) but I only pick up on her trail in New Brunswick, Canada and later, Prince Edward Island.

The surname is from Mull and Islay, in the Hebrides.

Stephen1986
02-02-2016, 04:41 PM
I've not done much mtDNA testing apart from an old test from back in 2008 or so (I'll have to look up which one it was) and on 23andMe, where I'm H1c3 whilst my brother has H1c - I'm not sure what causes the difference, we have the same versions of the test.

My oldest known direct maternal ancestor is either my 6x great grandmother Hannah Glover (who was born in 1769 in Kendal, Westmorland (now Cumbria), England) or, if the assumed parents are proven to be hers, then her mother Margaret but I know little about her.

WilliamAllan
02-02-2016, 04:47 PM
The surname is from Mull and Islay, in the Hebrides.

Yes, I've done some reading on the surname and most signs point to the isles of western Scotland. I included Ireland because many of the references I've come across regarding McFadyens/McFaddens that settled in New Brunswick have them coming from parts of northern and western Ireland...but perhaps originally from Mull, Islay, etc. before settling in Ireland.

Helen
02-03-2016, 10:34 AM
I was tested by FTDNA and have had the whole mtDNA genome read. Hope that is useful.
Helen

C J Wyatt III
02-03-2016, 10:43 AM
I was tested by FTDNA and have had the whole mtDNA genome read. Hope that is useful.
Helen

Helen, have you done an autosomal DNA test and if so, have you uploaded the results to GEDmatch?

Thanks,

Jack

Helen
02-05-2016, 09:59 AM
Jack I have done the autosomal test but am not familiar with doing things on the computer let alone the internet so not sure what to do, the results may well be uploaded. Cannot get internet in my village or mobile phone signal so have to do long trip to use it. Will follow instructions to do anything useful with my DNA results.
Helen

C J Wyatt III
02-05-2016, 10:42 AM
Jack I have done the autosomal test but am not familiar with doing things on the computer let alone the internet so not sure what to do, the results may well be uploaded. Cannot get internet in my village or mobile phone signal so have to do long trip to use it. Will follow instructions to do anything useful with my DNA results.
Helen
Thanks Helen.

I assume that you did the FTDNA Family Finder test when you had your mtDNA tests done. GEDmatch.com allows you to compare your kit with those that people have uploaded from other services or even ones from Family Finder which were not on your match list. Besides the comparison features, GEDmatch has a variety of admixture utilities which might give you more insight into your ancestry than you get with My Origins in Family Finder. If you ever are in a spot where you can get internet access for a few minutes, it would be worthwhile to pursue. Once you register with GEDmatch, the main page will give good instructions on how to upload from the various autosomal test providers. I am sure most people here would be glad to help with any questions you might have.

Good luck,

Jack

TinaT
02-19-2017, 05:21 PM
Hi, I am also mtDNA H1c1a. I have downloaded my mother's atDNA at Gedmatch from FTDNA. There are many admixtures to pick from and never know what to pick. Do you have any suggestions?

Mestace
02-19-2017, 06:45 PM
Hi, I am also mtDNA H1c1a. I have downloaded my mother's atDNA at Gedmatch from FTDNA. There are many admixtures to pick from and never know what to pick. Do you have any suggestions?

Hi and welcome, did you take the "mtdna +" or "full sequence" to come up H1c1a?

The most appreciated calculator around i would say is Eurogenes K15, it's a good starting point.

TinaT
02-20-2017, 03:44 PM
I had my mother take the full sequence mtDNA at FTDNA. Her results show we are H1c1a.

Elizabeth
07-19-2017, 12:56 AM
I had the FMS test done at Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) years ago, I think it was in 2010, and I am H1c12. At 23andMe I am still listed as H1c.

My maternal grandmother's side was Norman English.

My earliest known direct maternal ancestor was Martha Ann "Patsy" Golding, born in Virginia, died in North Carolina. She married twice in North Carolina. First to Uriah C. Parker, second to William Britton Meroney, Jr. Her father was William Golding. William Golding was married twice. I believe Martha's mother was the first wife, Sarah Burns, or Burnes, from Albemarle County, Virginia (born and died late 18th century Virginia). William Golding's parents were William Golding and Sarah Bell. Martha had only one child, Sarah Parker.

Elizabeth
07-19-2017, 05:08 PM
One of my FTDNA FMS exact matches is working to find out how we are related. She's working on the Golding family tree and she just emailed today to say she thinks there were two different William Goldings that moved from Virginia to North Carolina. So the Sarah Burns/Burnes may not be my ancestor. I'm still stuck at Martha Ann Golding, born 1789, the year George Washington was inaugurated. I don't know eactly where she was born. But she moved at age 12, in 1801, from Halifax County, Virginia to Rowan County, North Carolina. Her father was William Golding.

Volat
07-19-2017, 06:08 PM
Hi

IMHO H1c 'originated' in Eastern Europe or farther east.

I also have H1c from my Mum. We're east European.

etripp17
09-14-2017, 01:45 AM
My wife is H1c. I haven't done a full sequence with ftdna, but her earliest ancestor of which we have a record, immigrated to America from Lithuania in the late 1800s. I'm hoping there are some folks in Lithuania that I will be able to meet once have my wife tested; I would like to find out more about her family in that region.

Solothurn
09-14-2017, 02:35 AM
From my Geno 2.0 data which was also updated to H1c3b :)

Branch: H1c

Age: To Be Determined

Location of Origin: Europe

Today, this lineage is present more often in northwestern Europe than in southern Europe. It is about 5 percent of maternal lineages in Norway and Sweden. It is about 4 percent of the population of Wales. Elsewhere in Europe, it is around 2 percent of the population. Strikingly, it is about 5 percent of maternal lineages in Lebanon, and makes up around 7 percent of the population of Moldova.

Here are maps of all FTDNAs H1 including many H1c and subclades:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_H1?iframe=mtmap

From Eupedia:



[*=left]H1c: found especially in Eastern Europe, Central Asia and North Asia / / found in Neolithic Germany and in Bronze Age Latvia!




Hi

IMHO H1c 'originated' in Eastern Europe or farther east. The samples are vastly under represented in Bulgaria, Romania, Anatolia and surrounding areas.

The latest Geno 2.0 chip won't help this cause either, my results only show H1. Although I haven't yet looked at my data!

Just my opinion though :)

Paul333
10-25-2017, 10:13 PM
I have the mtDNA H1c3 Haplogroup, and have seen that the The 'Gokhem 2' burial in Sweden, showing mtdna H1c, and also both,H1c and H1c3,mtdna have been found in Bodzia Poland, these were believed to be Viking, or viking aged burials. (E37 =H1c3, and E870=H1c. There is quite a few recent H1c & H1c3 mtdna findings in Sweden, and in Norway, two H1c3's at Gausdal, and Ulstien, and two H1c's, also shown. I know it was found in Germany about 3500 BC, from postings by Motzart, and Solothurn, but how did it get there, was it Germany first, or Scandinavian first, and what route into these areas of Europe.