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AntG
04-07-2017, 07:56 AM
See here: https://www.livingdna.com/de/deutsches-dna-forschungsprojekt

Google Translate version... https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.livingdna.com%2Fde%2Fdeutsches-dna-forschungsprojekt&edit-text=&act=url

CelticGerman
04-07-2017, 05:22 PM
I have just offered my participation.

Dewsloth
04-07-2017, 05:37 PM
I have a German first cousin once-removed who would be perfect for this. I wonder if I can convince him to take an interest.

MatAust21
04-08-2017, 07:20 PM
So far, it seems like German DNA can be broken down into 24 regions.

The idea of trying to identify the genetic profile of the former German territories to the east is interesting.

Source: https://learnalittleeveryday.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/whodoyouthinkyouarelive-2017-a-short-summary/

evon
04-08-2017, 09:06 PM
I am thinking about ordering their test, would be interesting if they could place all my German ancestry correctly..

Calas
04-08-2017, 09:58 PM
Interesting.

Having lived in Germany, and relatives who married Germans, I know some who would definitely qualify. Including, ironically given MatAus21's mention of the east, a close Eastern German friend that I am meeting up with this upcoming Easter Holiday (he & a cousin will, after all, be in the Americas for about two weeks). I think that's enough time to persuade him.

Dewsloth
04-08-2017, 10:28 PM
First it says if your ancestors are German, it's for you. Then it says "In order to map the history of Germany precisely, we are looking for subjects whose grandparents were born within a radius of a maximum of 80 kilometers. *". Radius of each other?

They still want the other Germans, too, right? One set of grandparents is from Northern East Germany and the others are from Bonn/Aschaffenburg.

Calas
04-08-2017, 11:27 PM
First it says if your ancestors are German, it's for you. Then it says "In order to map the history of Germany precisely, we are looking for subjects whose grandparents were born within a radius of a maximum of 80 kilometers. *". Radius of each other?

They still want the other Germans, too, right? One set of grandparents is from Northern East Germany and the others are from Bonn/Aschaffenburg.

They ask for all grandparents to be born within a 80-kilometer radius > akin to the PoBI ideas used for England.

GoldenHind
04-09-2017, 01:12 AM
So far, it seems like German DNA can be broken down into 24 regions.

The idea of trying to identify the genetic profile of the former German territories to the east is interesting.

Source: https://learnalittleeveryday.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/whodoyouthinkyouarelive-2017-a-short-summary/

I believe most of the Germans who lived in the former eastern provinces were descended from western Germans who settled in the east during the Middle Ages as part of the Drang nach Osten. I doubt they are likely to very different from Germans from the western areas of Germany, who are comprised of a variety of HGs and subclades. Of course there could be some there who were part of the original inhabitants who were assimilated into the Germanic population.

Calas
04-09-2017, 01:43 AM
I believe most of the Germans who lived in the former eastern provinces were descended from western Germans who settled in the east during the Middle Ages as part of the Drang nach Osten. I doubt they are likely to very different from Germans from the western areas of Germany, who are comprised of a variety of HGs and subclades. Of course there could be some there who were part of the original inhabitants who were assimilated into the Germanic population.

Indeed there has been plenty of movement back and forth across Germany. To say that all eastern Germans are just western Germans is, however, likely inaccurate. Such was, after all, a similar claim once made prior about Anglos and Vikings being little more than bloodthirsty savages that chewed on the bones of Britians' Celtic inhabitants who thus ceased to exist. Shame research is proving that isn't the case.

There are, after all, Germans bearing surnames which are indicative of further eastern ancestry than simple next-door-neighbors. There is also surnames indicative of differential ancestry. Pohl for example. Can be locational [Pohl, Germany] and it can be also indicative of ancestry such as "Newman" for foreigners Pohl generally is considered to mean Pole. Besides groups like Volga Germans are typically kept separate in gedmatch for a reason > they aren't quite your run of the mill German. People like Aussiedlers found in eastern Germany [many of whom consider themselves Russian not German per census records] merely have to claim a single German ancestor & the rest can be whatever.

AntG
04-11-2017, 09:40 AM
Map:

15169

Ron from PA
04-11-2017, 01:12 PM
Can't wait for this!. I'd say im 65-70% German colonial and received 0 in my results.

wombatofthenorth
04-11-2017, 10:47 PM
So far, it seems like German DNA can be broken down into 24 regions.

The idea of trying to identify the genetic profile of the former German territories to the east is interesting.

Source: https://learnalittleeveryday.wordpress.com/2017/04/07/whodoyouthinkyouarelive-2017-a-short-summary/

24 seems like a bit much and with so much movement, I can't see more than 4-6 possibly making sense, but one could always just do that after the fact so i guess it doesn't matter

Theconqueror
04-12-2017, 01:32 AM
Map:

15169

Now this is pretty wicked.

Pylsteen
04-12-2017, 03:02 PM
I hope they will include the Netherlands too. I believe it is possible to distinguish Frisia and Brabant/Limburg. Holland will be more difficult because of its urban history.

Tomenable
04-13-2017, 06:15 PM
I have just been admitted to this Project (apparently as one of the first 100 participants):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10228-Deutsches-DNA-Forschungsprojekt&p=226545&viewfull=1#post226545

If you have a kit and are eligible to join the Project, autosomal transfer is free of charge:

https://www.livingdna.com/de/deutsches-dna-forschungsprojekt


(...) oder bestehende DNA Resultate von anderen Anbietern gratis an uns übertragen (23andME, Ancestry.com, Family Tree DNA usw.). (...)

Tomenable
04-13-2017, 06:22 PM
I believe most of the Germans who lived in the former eastern provinces were descended from western Germans who settled in the east during the Middle Ages as part of the Drang nach Osten. I doubt they are likely to very different from Germans from the western areas of Germany, who are comprised of a variety of HGs and subclades. Of course there could be some there who were part of the original inhabitants who were assimilated into the Germanic population.

I think you are wrong, considering what this lady scores in GEDmatch calculators:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9919-Prussian-German-results&p=218693&viewfull=1#post218693

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10228-Deutsches-DNA-Forschungsprojekt&p=226074&viewfull=1#post226074

In every PCA, she plots to the east of present-day East Germans (DDR Germans).

And even present-day East (DDR) Germans are very different from West Germans.

I won't even mention haplogroup frequencies, you can just check my old threads:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7265-Y-DNA-haplogroups-in-Silesia-before-WW2&p=158785&viewfull=1#post158785

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8115-East-Prussian-including-Old-Prussian-(West-Baltic)-R1a-subclades&p=175421&viewfull=1#post175421

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts&p=176774&viewfull=1#post176774

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8461-Map-of-haplogroup-R1a-in-Germany-and-Austria&p=199957&viewfull=1#post199957

CelticGerman
04-14-2017, 01:27 AM
They just accepted my participation. My grand parents are German, but clearly not from a 80 km radius. I could provide dna results, what seems to be a criteria as well.

Tomenable
04-14-2017, 08:23 AM
My grand parents are German, but clearly not from a 80 km radius.

They are accepting the first 100 people whose grandparents are not from a 80 km radius.

After that, they will be accepting only people whose grandparents are from such a radius.

In my case the radius is exactly 80 km, so I'm not sure in which group will they count me.

==========

Edit:

I have contacted some more people who will join their Project:

1) One person with all ancestors hailing from the borderlands between Kreis Preußisch Stargard, Kreis Tuchel, Kreis Konitz and Kreis Schwetz (all these in West Prussia) back to at least 1773 AD.

2) One person with all ancestors from Kreis Jarotschin back to at least 1800 AD.


I could provide dna results, what seems to be a criteria as well.

If you want it for free, then yes. If you don't have DNA results, you must pay 89 €:

https://www.livingdna.com/en/german-dna-research-project?ref=cj&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=CJ_Affiliate&PID=7135878


- Transfer your DNA from another provider Free of Charge (23andME, Ancestry.com, FTDNA and others)
- Take a Living DNA test at a special project price of 89 € (RRP 159 €)

Calas
04-14-2017, 12:10 PM
If you want it for free, then yes. If you don't have DNA results, you must pay 89 €:

https://www.livingdna.com/en/german-dna-research-project?ref=cj&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=CJ_Affiliate&PID=7135878


That freebie is a definite lure.

I've already talked someone (my colleague) whose ancestry to the 1700s is all Baden-Württemberg [rural, should be the Upper Rhine & Black Forest category LivingDNA has] within the 80 km radius. A Bavarian [near Ansbach, working on another with ancestry near Deggendorf], and someone from Nordrhein-Westfalen/North Rhine-Westphalia (North) into this. I'll see if I can talk my cousin's spouse [Saarland] into this and I know of a very good example of someone from Meck-Pomm as well.

I hestitate with others as well they're Jewish and as I said to you elsewhere LivingDNA didn't seem to think of a Jewish category for this*.




*I said this in the German section of the forums, but for others who may not be following the post there, I have asked LivingDNA about a Jewish cluster given, as said above, some of the Germans I know who would qualify are Jewish. LivingDNA's response: For the time being we are not planning to have a Jewish cluster, however we will pass this feedback on to the wider research team. As the questionaire doesn't ask religion I am curious as to what they'd do with any Jewish Germans who submit samples.

Tomenable
04-14-2017, 12:19 PM
Do you know any people with ancestry from Rügen?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rügen

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8006-Rugia-quot-skansen-quot-s%26%23322%3Bowia%26%23324%3Bski-R%FCgen-culturally-germanized-genetically-Slavic&p=173006&viewfull=1#post173006

There are already some papers which hint at genetic distinctiveness of people from that island:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14717531

Apparently, the population of Rügen is in terms of genetics clearly separated from the populations of Denmark, Sweden and of Northern Germany (samples from Hamburg):


Abstract

24 haemogenetic markers (5 erythrocyte antigens, 7 polymorphisms of serum proteins, 12 polymorphisms of red cell enzymes) had been studied in 171 individuals from the island of Rügen (Germany, Baltic Sea). The cluster analysis separates clearly the Rügen sample just as the islands of Hiddensee and Ummanz from the neighbouring populations. The comparison of the data with neighboured larger populations as for instance Denmark, Hamburg or Sweden clearly results in an exceptional position of the island of Rügen. The possible reasons are discussed. (...)

http://www.wizlaw.de/assets/images/Rujana-Karte2.jpg

http://www.wizlaw.de/assets/images/Rujana-Karte2.jpg

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 12:05 AM
I have just been admitted to this Project (apparently as one of the first 100 participants):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10228-Deutsches-DNA-Forschungsprojekt&p=226545&viewfull=1#post226545

If you have a kit and are eligible to join the Project, autosomal transfer is free of charge:

https://www.livingdna.com/de/deutsches-dna-forschungsprojekt

Aren't you of Polish ethnicity, though?

If that is the case, please let the people at Living DNA be aware of it. I know eastern Germans from the former territories had a lot of assimilated Balto-Slavic ancestry from ancient times, but they are not the same as the ethnic Poles, based on the results I have seen.

I think people should only volunteer if they are of German ethnicity, to make sure it won't skew the results of some regions that were historically divided in an ethnic and linguistic sense.

I also don't believe people of Jewish ancestry should volunteer, since their genetic profiles seem to be completely unrelated to those of ethnic Germans, despite generations of coexistence. It would only make the results more confusing and less accurate.

I don't want to start a fight with you, or anyone else, but I was hoping this project would be something useful for the people with ethnic German heritage that want to know more about the regional breakdown.

I have some ethnic Polish ancestry, and I wouldn't like it to be mistaken for east German ancestry in a future Living DNA update.

Calas
04-15-2017, 01:24 AM
I also don't believe people of Jewish ancestry should volunteer, since their genetic profiles seem to be completely unrelated to those of ethnic Germans, despite generations of coexistence. It would only make the results more confusing and less accurate.

I don't want to start a fight with you, or anyone else, but I was hoping this project would be something useful for the people with ethnic German heritage that want to know more about the regional breakdown.

Thing is, is Jews should be there. If for no other reason than to maintain the difference for there are people who try to maintain that their Germanic surnames are "Jewish" when in reality they're not. Just old Germans. That's why LivingDNA should have had a Jewish cluster or a category for religion because how many Jews are going to submit samples & just what, as there doesn't appear to be a given cluster for them, is LivingDNA going to do with those samples. I don't, after all, see a if you're Jewish we don't want your DNA commentary on their advertisement.

About the rest, but as with ethnic French, what is an ethnic German? There's been so much movement in the country, particularly along the borders, that finding a legitimate ethnic person would probably be a bit harder than you'd think. It's why I mentioned I am asking two Bavarians, one right near the Czech border and one more in the center of the state.



Regarding regional breakdown, well I've said it countless times. People move. Some of that area dubbed (southern) Germany was held by Austrians. But I'd really like to know what era they're using to map out their states. I was, after all, looking at their map wondering exactly where ancestry from Baden-Württemberg and which is located central to what LivingDNA calls the Upper Rhine/Black Forest & Württemberg would be placed. I am willing to bet some will get predominant Upper Rhine & others predominant Württemberg. Even if related.

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 02:10 AM
Thing is, is Jews should be there. If for no other reason than to maintain the difference for there are people who try to maintain that their Germanic surnames are "Jewish" when in reality they're not. Just old Germans. That's why LivingDNA should have had a Jewish cluster or a category for religion because how many Jews are going to submit samples & just what, as there doesn't appear to be a given cluster for them, is LivingDNA going to do with those samples. I don't, after all, see a if you're Jewish we don't want your DNA commentary on their advertisement.

Jews should have their own category in my opinion, as they have in other companies, such as 23andme and Ancestry.

However, Living DNA should create a separate project for them. To test Jews for a project about the genetic profile of Germans would make no sense, since they are clearly distinct in a genetic way.

It would be the same as having samples of South Asian origin used for their breakdown of the British regions. It wouldn't be helpful for the customers that are trying to learn about their ancestry, making the test simply useless.



About the rest, but as with ethnic French, what is an ethnic German? There's been so much movement in the country, particularly along the borders, that finding a legitimate ethnic person would probably be a bit harder than you'd think. It's why I mentioned I am asking two Bavarians, one right near the Czech border and one more in the center of the state.

It should be possible to map out the genetic profile of many different regions of Germany, in the same way it was possible for the British Isles. Based on the GEDmatch and 23andme results of Germans I have seen, people from the same regions tend to have similar results among themselves, and they become slightly different as you get further away.

People only became extremely mobile in rather recent times.

Calas
04-15-2017, 02:32 AM
Jews should have their own category in my opinion, as they have in other companies, such as 23andme and Ancestry.

One should then write to LivingDNA and tell them to include a little notice that says Jews should not submit their samples.

But you are missing the point of my commentary. If they don't have Jews to reference in this test then how can they separate people who submit their samples?


It would be the same as having samples of South Asian origin used for their breakdown of the British regions. It wouldn't be helpful for the customers that are trying to learn about their ancestry, making the test simply useless.

It is actually useful if you know about population movements. I mean S. Asians have been in England for a while. Sinti/Roma were in the UK from the 1600s for example. Same with Italians, Greeks, Slavs, etc. Which is why, in a way, I find LivingDNA limited. To assume that your ancestors were actually trees & rocks incapable of moving is not the best of ideas.





It should be possible to map out the genetic profile of many different regions of Germany, in the same way it was possible for the British Isles. Based on the GEDmatch and 23andme results of Germans I have seen, people from the same regions tend to have similar results among themselves, and they become slightly different as you get further away.

People only became extremely mobile in rather recent times.

How much do you know about German history?

But regarding the recent movement idea I know a Bavarian whose 17th-century ancestor transversed the Carpathian Mountains to get from his place to birth to where he married & died. About 358 miles give or take a few.

But the thing is, is people have always been mobile. Sometimes in trickles, sometimes in huge masses. One can't, after all, ignore the political, war, etc., that at times forced thousands of people to relocate throughout history or they'd run the risk of losing their head. Huguenots for example. Really only the extremely poor have widely stayed put. But wombatofthenorth said elsewhere that 50,000 Scots were in Poland during the 1600s, people versed in Scandinavian history [myself, evon] wouldn't bat an eye in telling you of the Scots & British in the region during the 1600s. The two-odd-centuries of mercantile settlement and resettlement due to the Russian fur trade, the Germanic Hanseatic League, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Dewsloth
04-15-2017, 05:45 AM
I have read that after the 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia, areas north/east of the Rhine that were depopulated were resettled by Catholic Walloons on the provision that they didn't agitate against the Lutherans already in the area. Meanwhile, my ashkenazi ancestors seem to have been in Germany since at least the 1500s. So who's a real German?

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 06:13 AM
One should then write to LivingDNA and tell them to include a little notice that says Jews should not submit their samples.

I can agree with that.


It is actually useful if you know about population movements. I mean S. Asians have been in England for a while. Sinti/Roma were in the UK from the 1600s for example. Same with Italians, Greeks, Slavs, etc. Which is why, in a way, I find LivingDNA limited. To assume that your ancestors were actually trees & rocks incapable of moving is not the best of ideas.

Their test should be able to categorize these populations properly, if there is a considerable amount of such ancestry, since they would not fit the average British genetic profile. You should not take their estimated time frame as a dogma.



How much do you know about German history?

No need to lose your calm, and start implying you are superior to others.


But regarding the recent movement idea I know a Bavarian whose 17th-century ancestor transversed the Carpathian Mountains to get from his place to birth to where he married & died. About 358 miles give or take a few.

If it was in fact one single ancestor that moved, his DNA would have eventually been assimilated into the majoritarian genetic profile of the region. Due to how genetic inheritance works, it is possible that his descendant that you know does not even share any DNA with this ancestor.

About half of my ancestry is German, and I have many family tree traced back to the 1500's. Most of my ancestors remained around the towns they were born.


But the thing is, is people have always been mobile. Sometimes in trickles, sometimes in huge masses. One can't, after all, ignore the political, war, etc., that at times forced thousands of people to relocate throughout history or they'd run the risk of losing their head. Huguenots for example. Really only the extremely poor have widely stayed put. But wombatofthenorth said elsewhere that 50,000 Scots were in Poland during the 1600s, people versed in Scandinavian history [myself, evon] wouldn't bat an eye in telling you of the Scots & British in the region during the 1600s. The two-odd-centuries of mercantile settlement and resettlement due to the Russian fur trade, the Germanic Hanseatic League, etc., etc., etc., etc.

I was the one who posted that about the Scots in Poland in a different thread, not wombatofthenorth.

Of course I am aware that peoples move, but when they do so in large numbers, and integrate, they form a new average genetic profile for the places they live in, which is what these tests try to isolate.

a small number of occasional migrants won't leave much of an impact.

I don't really see what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying Living DNA's test is a fraud because no test should be able to breakdown the genetic profile of the British regions, or any other regions out there, since they are too similar?

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 06:27 AM
I have read that after the 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia, areas north/east of the Rhine that were depopulated were resettled by Catholic Walloons on the provision that they didn't agitate against the Lutherans already in the area. Meanwhile, my ashkenazi ancestors seem to have been in Germany since at least the 1500s. So who's a real German?

Now we are just talking about politics, and have completely abandoned the topic of genetics.

If a small community of Europeans, for instance, moved to Japan 500 years ago, and maintained themselves isolated to the present day, one of their descendants should not be representative for the genetic profile of Japan as a whole.

They should only be representative of this hypothetical European community in Japan.

Of course, when it comes to identity, they could feel Japanese, since they would have contributed to the history of the place, but we are talking about genetics.

That is what I am talking about when I say Jewish people shouldn't take part in a project to collect German samples, unless they are specifically looking for Jews from Germany. Other than that, Jewish DNA is not interchangeable with the DNA of other ethnic groups traditionally found in Germany.

We are entering a topic of citizenship, rather than genetic and ethnic origins.

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 09:02 AM
Aren't you of Polish ethnicity, though?

If these people are including Provinz Posen, West Prussia, East Prussia and Silesia in their Project then I'm sure that they want Poles too, because ethnic Poles are: 1) more native in these areas than Germans, and: 2) were actually the majority of inhabitants in most of that territory:

http://i.imgur.com/oonMdGF.png

BTW, I do have people with German surnames among my ancestors, and most of my ancestors were bilingual in the early 1900s (they spoke both Polish and German fluently).

So how do you count who is "German" and who is not? Under the Nazis, one drop of German blood made you German, and even one drop of Jewish blood made you Jewish:

http://i.imgur.com/4JIKJMt.png

Which is why - I guess - they are not including Jews in their Project.

Sorry but Ashkenazi genetics is clearly distinct from Native Central European genetics.

You can say "but Jews is just a religious group", but we know it isn't.

Jews used to stick to themselves and married only other Jews throughout the centuries.

Meanwhile, Germans mixed with Slavic groups and with Old Prussians.

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 09:08 AM
By the way:

In the British Isles Project, did they include only Anglo-Saxons, and refused to include Celtic groups? Or were ethnic Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Cornish etc. people also welcomed? I'm just curious about it. If they included only Anglo-Saxons in the POBI study, then I will withdraw my participation from this study.

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 09:43 AM
About the rest, but as with ethnic French, what is an ethnic German?

If you want "genetically 100% Germans", you should test the Dutch, not the actual Germans.

Germans are mixed as hell. No wonder people complain that "German DNA is not showing up":

"23andMe's German problem" - http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5236-23andme-s-quot-German-Problem-quot

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 10:11 AM
If that is the case, please let the people at Living DNA be aware of it.

Of course! They already know that I am a sample from Provinz Posen.

Are you aware that Provinz Posen = area where ethnic Poles originated from?

This is the oldest part of Poland, since the Early Middle Ages when Poland emerged.

It became part of Germany only after the partitions of Poland of 1772-1795.

If they include it in the German DNA Project, then I assume that they know history.

Sorry but it seems that you are very ignorant about European history.

Pylsteen
04-15-2017, 10:16 AM
Distinguishing ethnic groups in a DNA test within the same geographical area is not a sin. Science should keep out of politics. It would be strange if they assigned both my Germanic and my Jewish ancestry to a "Germanic" lable.

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 10:18 AM
Distinguishing ethnic groups in a DNA test within the same geographical area is not a sin. Science should keep out of politics. It would be strange if they assigned both my Germanic and my Jewish ancestry to a "Germanic" lable.

Jewish & German ancestry is easy to distinguish from each other, even if you don't tell them that you are part-Jewish. Scientists should divide DNA samples into clusters based on genetic affinities. For example many people in Brazil claim that they are "German-Brazilians" but genetically they turn out to be Mestizos. A "German-Brazilian" with Mestizo genetics will be assigned to a Mestizo cluster, not to a German cluster.

Scientific analysis of DNA > trusting in people's self-reported "genetic ethnicity".

If I send my sample to genetic analysis, I expect them to tell me what I am.

If I already knew for sure what I am, why would I even want a genetic test? :noidea:

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 10:30 AM
Here is what they claim about their Project:

https://www.livingdna.com/en/german-dna-research-project?ref=cj&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=CJ_Affiliate&PID=7135878


How you benefit?

If you transfer your DNA, then as well as helping the One Family project, you will also benefit from:

- Your fine scale ancestry breakdown across up to 80 worldwide regions. Our breakdown goes far beyond your grandparents and is twice as detailed as any other test on the market.

- The ability to find out how you match other people in the project and in the wider Living DNA database, which potentially allows you to discover relatives you did not know about.

- Lifelong membership Living DNA.

If you purchase a Living DNA test you also benefit from:

- Genetic matching.

- Your Motherline (mtDNA) and Fatherline (YDNA) haplogroup migration routes that go back all the way to the beginning of humankind.

- Full access to useful tools for genealogy.

So I want this fine-scale ancestry breakdown.

Calas
04-15-2017, 11:06 AM
Now we are just talking about politics, and have completely abandoned the topic of genetics.

No, still talking genetics. Politics, war, etc. They all influence a population's genetics.



If a small community of Europeans, for instance, moved to Japan 500 years ago, and maintained themselves isolated to the present day, one of their descendants should not be representative for the genetic profile of Japan as a whole.

They should only be representative of this hypothetical European community in Japan.

The Dutch & the Portuguese were in Japan. They had trading posts. A number of Dutch married Japanese women. There are Japanese who have Dutch surnames. Some Dutch also happened to take their half-Dutch, half-Japanese children back home with them when they left. It is the same repeated, to greater or lesser degree, involving almost every one of the various Trading Companies throughout history.



Of course, when it comes to identity, they could feel Japanese, since they would have contributed to the history of the place, but we are talking about genetics.

That, however, is all carried over in genetics. The Dutch and Portuguese genes don't necessarily vanish into smoke just because the people are no longer there.

I mean Europeans still get "Native" genes on some of these tests, it isn't because they've got Native ancestry just the dregs of yesteryear genetics. Some Welsh, like JohnHowell, may get Ashkenazi popping up here & there. They're not Ashkenazi, it is because about 5% of Welsh share ancestral genes similar to Ashkenazi. Same as how some southern Europeans may look "Jewish" to oracles and genetic tests.




That is what I am talking about when I say Jewish people shouldn't take part in a project to collect German samples unless they are specifically looking for Jews from Germany. Other than that, Jewish DNA is not interchangeable with the DNA of other ethnic groups traditionally found in Germany.

We are entering a topic of citizenship, rather than genetic and ethnic origins.

Again what is an ethnic German? People from the east are going to have influence from Poland & Czech regions. People from the west are going to have influence from the Dutch and French. People from the south are going to have influence from Italians. People from the north are going to have influence from the Scandinavian region. And that's a basic breakdown there's also possible Turkish, etc.

It is why I hope LivingDNA understands that they are going to need more samples than the 100 volunteers they mention in their German project.


Besides Jews are not aliens. They are an ethnic group. Some of them did happen to marry fellow non-Jewish Germans & have children.

There is also the little fact, as Dewsloth said, Jews have been in Germany for a long time. If historical claims are correct there is a good possibility they've been in Cologne, for example, since 300AD and not all of them fled out of Germany with their displacement.

This is why LivingDNA should include a Jewish category. Ignoring them doesn't mean they don't exist.



No need to lose your calm, and start implying you are superior to others.

Just stating fact.


If it was in fact one single ancestor that moved, his DNA would have eventually been assimilated into the majoritarian genetic profile of the region. Due to how genetic inheritance works, it is possible that his descendant that you know does not even share any DNA with this ancestor.

About half of my ancestry is German, and I have many family tree traced back to the 1500's. Most of my ancestors remained around the towns they were born.

Just because the paper trails says they stayed put doesn't mean there wasn't NPE events.

But, regarding integration of genetics, people living on the borders who may appear more French or Polish or Czech or Italian or Scandinavian because those regions have had a bit of movement. As vettor said in another post SE France for example was Italian until recently really. So how many SE French are going to look rather Italian on these tests?



I don't really see what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying Living DNA's test is a fraud because no test should be able to breakdown the genetic profile of the British regions, or any other regions out there, since they are too similar?

You mention your German ancestry goes back to the 1500s. The states from the 1500s will they be the same ethnically/genetically as those states nowadays?

But having spoken with two researchers involved in PoBI about something that I have been curious about regarding LivingDNA in a way yes. I am not saying it is impossible but it won't be as easy as some would like to believe. Anyone versed in history [war, politics, border changes, etc.], historical population movements [Industrial Revolution, Huguenots, etc.] would also be a bit curious about something asking only for grandparents.

However, regarding the separation concept, LivingDNA's German project has Upper Rhine & Württemberg states. There are towns in Baden-Württemberg which are almost smack in the middle of those two regions. How are they going to separate Person A & B from Town C into categories? Is Person A going to be from Upper Rhine & Person B from Württemberg?

Tomenable
04-15-2017, 11:30 AM
There is also the little fact, as Dewsloth said, Jews have been in Germany for a long time. If historical claims are correct there is a good possibility they've been in Cologne, for example, since 300AD and not all of them fled out of Germany with their displacement.

Indeed. Some Jews have been in Germany before it became Germany (!).

Because Cologne was of course part of the Roman Empire back in 300 AD.


would also be a bit curious about something asking only for grandparents.

The survey includes also questions about great-grandparents.

And you can tell them about more distant ancestors as well.

CelticGerman
04-15-2017, 04:35 PM
I am curious to see the Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate cluster, for many Swiss and Tyrolians settled there after tremendous population losses during 30 years' war and later French invasions. In principle Lorraine and Alsace should be taken on board as well for the majority of the population there is still ethnic German (even if they are happy being French today). In the Ruhr area we should see an impact of Polish migration. In Schleswig-Holstein Danish influence should be visible (surname Christensen for example is frequent there).

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 05:34 PM
@Tomenable

I will have to report you for the PM and reputation comments with explicit cussing and racial insult.

Shameful that we could not discuss the topic in a civilized manner.

Calas
04-15-2017, 05:38 PM
I am curious to see the Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate cluster, for many Swiss and Tyrolians settled there after tremendous population losses during 30 years' war and later French invasions. In principle Lorraine and Alsace should be taken on board as well for the majority of the population there is still ethnic German (even if they are happy being French today). In the Ruhr area we should see an impact of Polish migration. In Schleswig-Holstein Danish influence should be visible (surname Christensen for example is frequent there).

Indeed.

I certainly agree with the Alsace region. Particularly, if LivingDNA is going to try and categorize France later on. They need some degree of overlap between both countries [same with the east & Poland] to get an accurate representation. Keeping them entirely separate will likely skew results. Either favouring non-German countries too much or favouring Germany too much.

The problem is, is I don't quite think LivingDNA took all this into consideration. Why should they? Their first venture was well received. But then again as almost anyone can tell you 'mapping' the UK is, in a way, far simpler than trying the same with the Continent.

Still, the fact that they seem to disregard the concept of Jews doesn't work in LivingDNA's favor for having really thought out what this would require. I've asked them some specific questions [aside from the Jewish question] since and hopefully, they'll get back to me sooner rather than later.

AntG
04-15-2017, 05:43 PM
I think LivingDNA would need to consider overlapping clusters more and how to display it and there may be more of a need for this for mainland Europe. I had this in Northern Ireland and two colours just merged and I was looking for this colour on the key not realising it was an overlapping area. Ancestry display this overlapping quite well in ethnicity and Genetic Communities.

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 06:00 PM
Distinguishing ethnic groups in a DNA test within the same geographical area is not a sin. Science should keep out of politics. It would be strange if they assigned both my Germanic and my Jewish ancestry to a "Germanic" lable.

This is the point I was trying to make from the beginning, but perhaps I worded it in the wrong way, since it sparked such outrage.

I was trying to say that, if for instance a person is 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 German and 1/3 Polish, all of their ancestors coming from, let's say, former West Prussia, it would be nice to have a test that gives this person more details than just saying "you are 100% West Prussian".

To me, that would be the same as a DNA test saying "you are an American citizen".

Calas
04-15-2017, 06:29 PM
This is the point I was trying to make from the beginning, but perhaps I worded it in the wrong way, since it sparked such outrage.

I was trying to say that, if for instance a person is 1/3 Jewish, 1/3 German and 1/3 Polish, all of their ancestors coming from, let's say, former West Prussia, it would be nice to have a test that gives this person more details than just saying "you are 100% West Prussian".

If LivingDNA does not have Jewish nor Polish samples, however, that's all they're going to say. You're "100% Prussian". Cause there's nothing to refer against.

So in that sense wouldn't one have better luck, not spend as much money, and likely have more fun sticking a map on the surface of a dartboard and purchasing some darts.




Distinguishing ethnic groups in a DNA test within the same geographical area is not a sin. Science should keep out of politics. It would be strange if they assigned both my Germanic and my Jewish ancestry to a "Germanic" lable.

Seeing as they kept French, Germanic, etc. and the English "separate" [depending on how they were identified] in their English venture why, if LivingDNA had a Jewish cluster, would they not separate Jews & Germans in their Germanic idea?

MatAust21
04-15-2017, 07:03 PM
If LivingDNA does not have Jewish nor Polish samples, however, that's all they're going to say. You're "100% Prussian". Cause there's nothing to refer against.

I agree.

That is why I suggested that the user volunteering a sample should make sure Living DNA is aware of his ethnicity. That way we can, sometime in the future, hope that they will have different categories from the same geographic areas, such as "xx% German from West Prussia", "xx% Pole from West Prussia" and "xx% Jewish from West Prussia".

A single West Prussian reference, that includes all of these samples with different backgrounds, would probably be very unstable, and would give many people false positives, since it would be too broad.

GoldenHind
04-15-2017, 11:04 PM
I think you are wrong, considering what this lady scores in GEDmatch calculators:




I suppose it depends on whether you look at autosomal DNA or YDNA, and who you consider to be German. I was referring to YDNA (which I should've made clear), and labeling German those YDNA descendants of the tribes who spoke a Germanic language in the Iron Age.

Since you are interested in the issue, I recommend The Origins of Prussia by F. L. Carsten, Oxford, 1965 (who incidentally was one of my old professors in my undergraduate days). He has several chapters on the Germanic settlement of Brandenburg. Pomerania and East and West Prussia.

By the conclusion of the Migration period, the Germanic tribes had migrated out of the area east of the Elbe, and been replaced by various Slavic tribes. The Germans began their conquest of the east of the Elbe in the 10th century, and this process continued for several centuries. The line of the border can be traced through the various marches or borders which marked the line between Germans and Slaves, from Altmark, which is west of the Elbe, to Neumark, which is east of the Oder. Colonists from west of the Elbe were encouraged to settle the newly conquered lands, not only from Germany, but as far west as Holland and Flanders. Many of the Slavic inhabitants, and later Baltic tribes as well, were eventually Germanized. Of course many more people of Slavic origin were added to the area during the three subsequent Partitions of Poland in the 18th century during the reign of Frederick the Great. Obviously over the centuries there was a great deal of intermixture between Slavs and Germans, so one shouldn't expect to see the strong Slavic presence in these eastern lands to appear in western German areas. My point was merely that the Germans who colonized these eastern areas originated in what is now western Germany. Consider for instance the Hohenzollerns, who went from Margraves of Brandenburg to Electors to Kings of Prussia and finally Emperors of Germany. They originated in Swabia in southwest Germany.

Tomenable
04-16-2017, 09:00 AM
My point was merely that the Germans who colonized these eastern areas originated in what is now western Germany. Consider for instance the Hohenzollerns, who went from Margraves of Brandenburg to Electors to Kings of Prussia and finally Emperors of Germany. They originated in Swabia in southwest Germany.

I don't know what Y-DNA did the Hohenzollerns have but if you check their autosomal DNA you will see that they were largely Slavic descended, if we believe Erich Brandenburg, "Die Ahnen Augusts des Starken" (Abhandl. der Saechs. Akademie der Wissenschaften, Phil.-hist. Klasse, Bd.43, Nr.5), published in Leipzig in 1937.

For example Joachim Friedrich Hohenzollern (1546-1608) was only 37% German and 48% Slavic according to that publication:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/brandenburgerich6.jpg

Heinrich IV der Fromme (1473-1541) was 27% German and 62% Slavic and Baltic according to the same source:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/brandenburgerich5.jpg

Tomenable
04-16-2017, 09:08 AM
Germans from the western areas of Germany, who are comprised of a variety of HGs and subclades.
I was referring to YDNA (which I should've made clear), and labeling German those YDNA descendants of the tribes who spoke a Germanic language in the Iron Age.

How many samples of Iron Age Germanic Y-DNA have you seen so far?

I have knowledge about four Gothic samples from Wielbark culture.

Around 100 ancient DNA samples from East Germanic (Goths, Vandals, etc.) Iron Age cultures which existed in Poland - Wielbark and Przeworsk - will be published soon. According to rumours there is no any R1a among these samples. On the other hand, there is R1b-U106 from Wielbark culture (for instance, one sample from Drozdowo in Mazovia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozdowo,_P%C5%82o%C5%84sk_County)), which means that Germans with R1a (and this is a huge percent of East Germans) cannot be considered descendants of Iron Age Germanic tribes. If there was no R1a in Iron Age Poland, then surely there was no R1a further west either. So if your point was that R1a in Germany is Non-Slavic, you were wrong. Also look at TMRCA of subclades. They are young subclades, and the same ones which can be found among West Slavic and Baltic groups. See my threads about it. Scandinavian-specific subclades of R1a are almost non-existent in Germany.

R1a was apparently not part of Iron Age East Germanic Y-DNA.

I know about R1b-U106 as well as I1a3a1 (Z60) from Wielbark.

As it seems I2a-Din also was not part of Iron Age Germanic tribes.


one shouldn't expect to see the strong Slavic presence in these eastern lands to appear in western German areas.

Are you aware that most of Eastern Germans displaced after WW2 settled in West Germany? Data below shows the percent of Eastern Germans in West Germany in 1961, but even since 1961 until the present-day there has been a continued influx of immigrants from East Germany to West Germany:

http://s11.postimg.org/5kxi31kyb/West_Germany.png

http://s16.postimg.org/njbt8y26d/Definition.png


The Germans began their conquest of the east of the Elbe in the 10th century, and this process continued for several centuries.

Except that not all of that German eastward expansion can be labelled as conquest. Settlement of German immigrants in some places - like for example Silesia - was peaceful. Without any conquest.

This is a good book in English about the history of Silesia in 1000-1526:

http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/49790/Cuius_regio_vol_1.pdf

Volume 2 (1526-1740):

http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/Content/49790/Cuius_regio_vol_1.pdf


I recommend The Origins of Prussia by F. L. Carsten, Oxford, 1965

I'd recommend more recent books (from the 1990s, 2000s and 2010s).

For example "Slawen und Deutsche in Pommern in Mittelalter":

https://books.google.pl/books?id=J3ijrzM5kRgC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

And also:

http://s31.postimg.org/kyugin5aj/Zusammenfassung.png

There are good recent books about East Prussia & Teutonic Order as well.

Tomenable
04-16-2017, 10:51 AM
A single West Prussian reference, that includes all of these samples with different backgrounds, would probably be very unstable, and would give many people false positives, since it would be too broad.

Hard to say because nobody has tested DNA of people from these areas so far.

This is the very first study which is going to test people from these regions.

You mentioned in post #22 that you "know" the genetic profile of Prussian Germans and Prussian Poles - can you show me in which study has this been published? I'm not aware of any such studies.

Maybe it was your own genetic study? Please kindly share the results with us.

Tomenable
04-17-2017, 11:55 AM
Below is a comparison of Prussian German and Prussian Polish (my) results in Eurogenes K36.

But the Prussian German has geographically more diverse and more northern origins than me.

This map shows areas where 16 great-great-grandparents of the Prussian German were born:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9919-Prussian-German-results&p=218703&viewfull=1#post218703

10/16 of her g-g-grandparents are from the borderlands of West Prussia, Pommern & Posen:


I checked the regions of birth of her 16 great-grandparents (surnames):

West Prussia - 5 (Steinbach, Liebenau, Kopiske, Hedke, Lück)
Pomerania - 4 (Zimmermann, Voss, Hasse, Hass)
Provinz Posen - 3 (Eichstädt, Neumann, Schulz)
East Prussia - 2 (Scheffler, Gnoss)
Sachsen - 1 (Schmeisser)
Thüringen - 1 (Feustel)

http://i.imgur.com/oLnGoQk.png

And this map shows the area where all my (Prussian Polish) 8 great-grandparents were born:

http://i.imgur.com/OZM0WuD.png

Our Eurogenes K36 results (including my FTDNA format & my DNA.Land file in 23andMe format):



Population
Prussian German
My FTDNA format
My DNA.Land (23andMe format)


East-Central Euro
18.94
22.87
22.86


Eastern Euro
15.23
13.99
13.9


North Sea
15.22
11.81
11.74


Central Euro
11.01
9.8
9.72


North Atlantic
10.03
8.14
8.22


Fennoscandian
6.02
9.32
9.32


French
4.65
4.93
5


East Balkan
3.69
8.54
8.5


Italian
2.5
5.96
5.85


Basque
3.11
0.91
0.98


West Med
0.93
1.2
1.14


Iberian
8.38
0.39
0.5


North Caucasian
0
2.15
2.27


Volga-Ural
0.29
0
0



Prussian German Eurogenes K36 Oracle results:
(using a spreadsheet with 224 ref. populations)

1) Least-squares method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_north @ 6,998097
2 Czechs_Moravians @ 9,303132
3 Ukrainian_West @ 9,549743
4 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 9,882557
5 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 10,022065
6 PL_Kashubians @ 10,490373
7 PL_Wielkopolska @ 10,555562
8 PL_South_Poland @ 10,655688
9 Slovak @ 10,796768
10 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 11,426138
11 PL_average @ 12,060201
12 PL_Mazovia @ 12,791173
13 Hungary @ 13,683147
14 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 13,777191
15 Hungarian_Slovenian @ 15,052587
16 Ukrainian_East @ 15,134748
17 Slovenian @ 15,274207
18 Belarusian_Polesye @ 15,282905
19 Russian_Voronezh @ 15,435219
20 Russian_Oryol @ 15,558071
224 iterations.

2) Gaussian method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_north @ 2,720424
2 PL_Kashubians @ 3,108343
3 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 3,411766
4 PL_Mazovia @ 3,456267
5 PL_Wielkopolska @ 3,624649
6 PL_average @ 3,769046
7 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 3,84657
8 Czechs_Moravians @ 3,92787
9 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 3,962726
10 PL_South_Poland @ 4,017371
11 Ukrainian_West @ 4,101312
12 Belarusian_Polesye @ 4,202611
13 Russian_Smolensk @ 4,381332
14 Slovak @ 4,637832
15 PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 4,666336
16 Ukrainian_East @ 4,752006
17 Austria @ 4,765226
18 Sweden @ 4,77791
19 Belarusian_East @ 4,778994
20 Sweden_north @ 4,805929
224 iterations.

My Eurogenes K36 Oracle results (23andMe format):

1) Least-squares method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,803656
2 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 6,272252
3 PL_average @ 7,687345
4 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 7,962513
5 PL_Mazovia @ 8,132656
6 PL_north @ 8,16761
7 PL_South_Poland @ 8,199323
8 PL_Kashubians @ 8,469839
9 Slovak @ 9,03938
10 Ukrainian_West @ 9,091402
11 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 9,939195
12 Belarusian_Polesye @ 10,000189
13 Czechs_Moravians @ 10,015559
14 Russian_Oryol @ 10,109698
15 Russian_Voronezh @ 10,271533
16 Ukrainian_East @ 10,515674
17 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 10,587364
18 PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 10,612256
19 Russian_Kursk @ 11,061473
20 Belarusian_East @ 11,252288
224 iterations.

2) Gaussian method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_Wielkopolska @ 2,860252
2 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 3,071093
3 PL_Mazovia @ 3,282759
4 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 3,313346
5 PL_average @ 3,382036
6 PL_South_Poland @ 3,559604
7 PL_north @ 3,693244
8 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 3,853811
9 PL_Kashubians @ 3,859046
10 Czechs_Moravians @ 3,870192
11 Belarusian_Polesye @ 3,870832
12 Belarusian_East @ 4,004563
13 Russian_Smolensk @ 4,007749
14 Slovak @ 4,157081
15 Russian_Kursk @ 4,163922
16 Ukrainian_East @ 4,281441
17 Russian_Voronezh @ 4,385035
18 Russian_Oryol @ 4,388567
19 Russian_Bryansk @ 4,477297
20 Slovenian @ 4,633957
224 iterations.

My Eurogenes K36 Oracle results (FTDNA format):

1) Least-squares method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,887738
2 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 6,329235
3 PL_average @ 7,749279
4 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 8,048753
5 PL_Mazovia @ 8,190306
6 PL_north @ 8,255324
7 PL_South_Poland @ 8,287037
8 PL_Kashubians @ 8,555187
9 Slovak @ 9,142783
10 Ukrainian_West @ 9,217123
11 Russian_Don_Cossack @ 10,036245
12 Belarusian_Polesye @ 10,047153
13 Czechs_Moravians @ 10,13613
14 Russian_Oryol @ 10,167829
15 Russian_Voronezh @ 10,312009
16 Ukrainian_East @ 10,54968
17 PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 10,644077
18 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 10,658319
19 Russian_Kursk @ 11,102554
20 Belarusian_East @ 11,297743
224 iterations.

2) Gaussian method:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 PL_Wielkopolska @ 2,87988
2 PL_Upper_Silesia @ 3,097246
3 PL_Mazovia @ 3,310414
4 PL_SW_Malopolska @ 3,339396
5 PL_average @ 3,415456
6 PL_South_Poland @ 3,584108
7 PL_north @ 3,721655
8 PL_SE_Carpathia @ 3,855068
9 Belarusian_Polesye @ 3,887001
10 Czechs_Moravians @ 3,893463
11 PL_Kashubians @ 3,901169
12 Russian_Smolensk @ 4,043849
13 Belarusian_East @ 4,046699
14 Slovak @ 4,167403
15 Russian_Kursk @ 4,249977
16 Ukrainian_East @ 4,345288
17 Russian_Voronezh @ 4,420914
18 Russian_Oryol @ 4,485589
19 Russian_Bryansk @ 4,573208
20 Slovenian @ 4,642241
224 iterations.

Tomenable
06-11-2017, 03:09 PM
Seven Germans with ancestry from areas to the east of the Oder-Neisse in K36:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10813-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps&p=245570&viewfull=1#post245570

Tomenable
07-07-2017, 07:15 PM
Data on the ethno-linguistic structure of some counties of East Prussia by year:

1) Kreis Angerburg (Węgorzewo):

http://s12.postimg.org/4lykvlptp/Angerburg.png

2) Kreis Goldap (Gołdap):

http://s29.postimg.org/iawes28rb/Goldap.png

3) Kreis Johannisburg (Pisz):

http://s4.postimg.org/hp3y8108t/Johannisburg.png

4) Kreis Lötzen (Łuczany / Giżycko):

http://s4.postimg.org/qyapvvyil/Loetzen.png

5) Kreis Lyck (Łek / Ełk):

http://s12.postimg.org/abetfwvzx/Gumbinnen.png

6) Kreis Mohrungen (Morąg):

http://s7.postimg.org/gq21hrncb/Mohrungen.png

7) Kreis Neidenburg (Nibork / Nidzica):

http://s16.postimg.org/9767ssobp/Neiderung.png

8) Kreis Oletzko (Olecko):

http://s10.postimg.org/6z6gg6bvd/Oletzko.png

9) Kreis Ortelsburg (Szczytno):

http://s29.postimg.org/jfqgxfv87/Ortelsburg.png

10) Kreis Osterode (Ostróda):

http://s28.postimg.org/ydgjcysn1/Osterode.png

11) Kreis Rastenburg (Rastembork / Kętrzyn):

http://s8.postimg.org/fmiz13net/Rastenburg.png

12) Kreis Rosenberg (Susz):

http://s2.postimg.org/4n5ncnamx/Rosenberg.png

13) Kreis Sensburg (Ządzbork / Mrągowo):

http://s4.postimg.org/xftmfe8vx/Sensburg.png

14) Summary for Pisz, Lötzen, Lyck, Neidenburg, Oletzko, Ortelsburg, Osterode & Sensburg:

http://s13.postimg.org/pg7psa8zb/Summary_8_Kreise.png

There were also Lithuanian-speakers and Curonian-speakers in East Prussia.

Percent of Lithuanian-speakers among the population of East Prussia:

Year - % of Lithuanian-speakers in East Prussia:

1820 - 18,52% (estimate)
1825 - 12,13% (census)
1837 - 11,49% (census)
1848 - 10,26% (census)
1871 - 7,65% (census)
1878 - 6,91% (census)
1890 - 6,19% (census)

^^^ It continued to decline after 1890, but I don't have exact data.

Tomenable
07-07-2017, 07:27 PM
And data from von Haxthausen's book for year 1825:

Regierungs-Bezirk Gumbinnen:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Johannisburg - 2146 / 28552 / -
Kreis Lyck - 3296 / 26144 / -
Kreis Sensburg - 3769 / 22391 / 5
Kreis Lötzen - 2959 / 18449 / -
Kreis Oletzko - 4734 / 18828 / 22
Kreis Angerburg - 11756 / 12535 / 60

Kreis Goldapp - 17412 / 3940 / 3559

Kreis Stallupönen - 20430 / 356 / 5435
Kreis Darkehmen - 20373 / 485 / 2992

Kreis Gumbinnen - 33651 / 19 / 254

Kreis Heydekrug - 6446 / - / 16502
Kreis Niederung - 18711 / 291 / 18336
Kreis Tilsit - 19283 / 660 / 18057
Kreis Ragnit - 17140 / 192 / 15522
Kreis Pillkallen - 17032 / - / 11271
Kreis Insterburg - 30393 / - / 10108

Regierungs-Bezirk Königsberg:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Ortelsburg - 3100 / 34928 / -
Kreis Neidenburg - 2149 / 27467 / 1
Kreis Allenstein - 4927 / 25530 / -
Kreis Osterode - 8920 / 22552 / -

Kreis Rößel - 23927 / 6778 / -
Kreis Rastenburg - 28034 / 1744 / -

Kreis Memel - 16440 / 27 / 24196
Kreis Labiau - 25182 / 43 / 12948

Kreis Mohrungen - 34473 / 883 / -
(...)

I listed counties with significant Polish or Lithuanian populations.

hans84
09-16-2017, 04:53 PM
Just wondering, has anyone here actually gotten their results back already?

I entered into the project and volunteered my sample's raw data as soon as i read about it a couple months back and my raw data was accepted among the first hundred entries - But since then i hadn't heard back from them like at all.

Contacting the support guys proved difficult to say the least, my email provider kept getting flagged by their system so i had to re-use that super hidden contact form on the website for that purpose... Anyways the support guy told me about some kind of issues they seemed to have been facing regarding backlogs, but that last response of his to me was quite a while ago and the deadline he mentioned to me by which i would supposedly finally receive my finished results has long since passed.

... So yeah, i'm just curious if anyone else who successfully entered into the project already got their results processed/account set up or if i'm truly the only one facing this issue :)

Ohio
01-01-2019, 06:20 PM
Has anyone heard anything about this recently?

hans84
01-27-2019, 07:04 PM
Has anyone heard anything about this recently?

Yeah i finally got my results back the other day after multiple delays on their site (as mentioned above they pushed it back further and further for a year or so because of apparent database/migration issues) but they have proven to be a sordid dissapointment for me. Instead of the sub-regional resolutions that were hinted at (according to them with this volunteered raw data they'd basically build a german/central euro version of the detailed british isles model they have developed from scratch) you merely get some watered-down and very rudimentary results, basically stuff which you already knew if you did 23andme/FTDNA or whatever and volunteered the autosomal file. Pretty dissapointing if you got promised so much more and waited almost two years for your results to finally become available if you ask me, but oh well.

They assigned my raw data 71% germanic and about 28% "british isles" which is nonsense because i know for a fact that i have about 25-30% eastern euro-derived BGA, all the different tests have shown this but LivingDNA doesn't seem to be able to pick it up at all right now. Somehow they manage to be worse than MyHeritageDNA even when it comes to accuracy which is quite the achievement.

Also, their customer support is abysmal (check the other reviews) and if you get a reply from them at all it's mostly just cookie cutter-tier responses. I had asked them when/if one could expect the german sub-regional resolution clusters to roll in but hadn't heard back anything from them so i don't exactly have high hopes for their service let alone my results improving in the future

hans84
02-07-2019, 02:51 PM
Got a headsup from LivingDNA customer service via email yesterday, the german regional breakdown isn't ready yet but they're "working hard on it" and will automatically update my faulty current results once it's done. Which is weird because apparently they pushed those fake results out just to meet some deadline they had set themselves previously. I would have honestly prefered to wait for real and accurate results rather than obviously false ones.

Dewsloth
02-07-2019, 04:39 PM
Got a headsup from LivingDNA customer service via email yesterday, the german regional breakdown isn't ready yet but they're "working hard on it" and will automatically update my faulty current results once it's done. Which is weird because apparently they pushed those fake results out just to meet some deadline they had set themselves previously. I would have honestly prefered to wait for real and accurate results rather than obviously false ones.

At least you got "fake" results with "germanic!" My dad (~half British(incl trace Swiss, German, French)/half German/Belgian/Ashkenazi) was in one of the very first batches in 2017, and was given British, Italian and Scandinavian.
No German, no French, no Belgian.
I don't know if "germanic" was even an available category when he took the test. They have never updated it despite their stock pop-up promises to do so, and despite my repeated requests to have his existing results run on their newer "fake" model calculator (which they have refused).

His 2017 results (he was born in Germany)
[I]Europe 100%
Great Britain and Ireland 71.1%
Southeast England 20.6%
East Anglia 13.6%
Lincolnshire 12.2%
South Central England 9.5%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
Cumbria 2.4%
Northwest Scotland 2.4%
Devon 2.3%
Cornwall 2.2%
North Yorkshire 1.2%

Europe (South) 14.3%
North Italy 11.1%
Aegean 3.2%

Europe (North and West) 8.2%
Scandinavia 8.2%

Europe (East) 6.4%
West Balkans 2.6%
East Balkans 2%
Finland and Western Russia 1.8%

hans84
02-07-2019, 04:55 PM
At least you got "fake" results with "germanic!" My dad (~half British(incl trace Swiss, German, French)/half German/Belgian/Ashkenazi) was in one of the very first batches in 2017, and was given British, Italian and Scandinavian.
No German, no French, no Belgian.
I don't know if "germanic" was even an available category when he took the test. They have never updated it despite their stock pop-up promises to do so, and despite my repeated requests to have his existing results run on their newer "fake" model calculator (which they have refused).

His 2017 results (he was born in Germany)
[I]Europe 100%
Great Britain and Ireland 71.1%
Southeast England 20.6%
East Anglia 13.6%
Lincolnshire 12.2%
South Central England 9.5%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
Cumbria 2.4%
Northwest Scotland 2.4%
Devon 2.3%
Cornwall 2.2%
North Yorkshire 1.2%

Europe (South) 14.3%
North Italy 11.1%
Aegean 3.2%

Europe (North and West) 8.2%
Scandinavia 8.2%

Europe (East) 6.4%
West Balkans 2.6%
East Balkans 2%
Finland and Western Russia 1.8%

Sorry to hear you're having trouble with their customer "service" aswell there! Maybe do take solace in the fact that we're unfortunately not the only customers being treated by them like this (https://www.trustpilot.com/review/livingdna.com).

But yeah the whole deal seems a bit off with some ethnicities especially, like they're temporary or at least partially pre-packaged placeholder results almost imo. Fake would obviously be too harsh of a word too use (i just came back home when i made that post and it seemed like the most opportune term in that moment) but i think their algorithm right now isn't exactly accurate or functioning as it should with certain populations. Their datasets seem to be lacking in many respects too. I mean why push ahead just to meet a deadline and risk bad reviews instead of being honest to your customers and fully fledging things out first? Not a good business decision imo, and i'm very glad i didn't pay any money for these results

ianz91
02-10-2019, 12:28 PM
So if I'm understanding the posts here correctly, it's that Living DNA is not very good for those of full or partly German heritage?

msmarjoribanks
02-12-2019, 05:13 PM
Not yet, although if they ever finish this German project it should improve, and some recent tests do seem to be better. But it basically lumped my German ancestry into English categories.

Robert1
02-12-2019, 08:50 PM
Living DNA says they completed their reference panel update for Europe (which I assume includes the German project). They also say Ireland is done and they are wrapping up the rest of the British Isles. We'll see pretty soon, that is if their ancestry update rolls out in March as promised.

timberwolf
02-12-2019, 09:08 PM
Living DNA says they completed their reference panel update for Europe (which I assume includes the German project). They also say Ireland is done and they are wrapping up the rest of the British Isles. We'll see pretty soon, that is if their ancestry update rolls out in March as promised.

Whats the source for that information?

msmarjoribanks
02-12-2019, 10:05 PM
Living DNA says they completed their reference panel update for Europe (which I assume includes the German project). They also say Ireland is done and they are wrapping up the rest of the British Isles. We'll see pretty soon, that is if their ancestry update rolls out in March as promised.

Exciting, if it happens.

Robert1
02-13-2019, 05:40 PM
Whats the source for that information?

Katie Welka, the Senior Product Manager at Living DNA lately has been posting answers at the Living DNA Users Facebook page.

Since I posted yesterday she said the updated European panel will be incorporated into the ancestry update scheduled possibly in March, which should help distinguish England and the continent but Germany won't be broken down into sub-regions yet. So I guess the German project is ongoing.

timberwolf
02-13-2019, 05:59 PM
Katie Welka, the Senior Product Manager at Living DNA lately has been posting answers at the Living DNA Users Facebook page.

Since I posted yesterday she said the updated European panel will be incorporated into the ancestry update scheduled possibly in March, which should help distinguish England and the continent but Germany won't be broken down into sub-regions yet. So I guess the German project is ongoing.

Thanks

Mine you saying possibly March is different to March.

As with everything LDNA say take it with a huge grain of salt.

FionnSneachta
02-13-2019, 06:18 PM
Katie Welka, the Senior Product Manager at Living DNA lately has been posting answers at the Living DNA Users Facebook page.

Since I posted yesterday she said the updated European panel will be incorporated into the ancestry update scheduled possibly in March, which should help distinguish England and the continent but Germany won't be broken down into sub-regions yet. So I guess the German project is ongoing.

Is there any mention of Ireland being broken down into sub-regions?

Edit: Just found the posts being referred to. There won't be any sub-regions added for Ireland. I've posted the most relevant posts below. The first post wasn't by Katie but the rest are Katie's. In summary, Katie hasn't actually confirmed a March date for the update. That date was given a couple of months ago and she hasn't yet confirmed when the next update will be. They're also releasing a blog on new updates. They're trying to allow people to view their old and new updated results so that they can keep both.


The paragraph below was posted a couple months ago in regard to new samples in Living DNA's reference panels so I'm wondering if we're still on schedule for a March ancestry update.
"Hi, thanks for getting in touch with us. Our Irish Ancestry updates are across both chips (Sirius and Orion). The updated Irish Ancestry results are due to a result in our improvements across our panels and not the chip. The chip will not affect this and your results will be updated in your portal automatically. Everyone's portals will update for 3 different panels including Irish Ancestry in March time of 2019 - our European panels have been updated and our British Isles is currently 50% complete of a further update. We will release more information in 2019 about panel improvements, kind regards, Living DNA"

while I don't know the exact timeline, I can confirm it's been in testing and run on my personal results as part of that, which was pretty cool to see. Our biggest hurdle right now is not the panel at this point, but the lack of versioning on the user-facing side. In other words, if we push this out, there will be a lot of happy people, but also a potential mass of people who want their old results back and can't get them. Stability has been a priority as of late to make sure we can build in that kind of versioning on top of our existing tools. (5d)

I will see if I can get an updated timeline tomorrow when I'm in the office. There is a blog going out soon with a lot of updates and I'm sure that will be in it, but I may be able to get you the answer sooner than the blog's arrival. (5d)

there are no new regions being added in the panel update. By update, I mean that improved reference panels will have the potential to reassign some of your European results to more accurate regions and subregions. For example, if you were reading too high on UK but were actually more Irish, you are likely to see that improve (2h)

timberwolf
02-13-2019, 09:26 PM
Thanks but it other words she has posted something five days, promised to get back the following day, with some further information, and has not done so?

Do I see a pattern here.

FionnSneachta
02-13-2019, 10:00 PM
Thanks but it other words she has posted something five days, promised to get back the following day, with some further information, and has not done so?

Do I see a pattern here.

I'd be surprised if it's released in March. If they were releasing the update in March, they'd probably know about it by now. It sounds like they're still working on those versioning tools. It could be released in March but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

timberwolf
02-13-2019, 10:09 PM
I'd be surprised if it's released in March. If they were releasing the update in March, they'd probably know about it by now. It sounds like they're still working on those versioning tools. It could be released in March but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Agree

I don't think you can put any stock into anything Livingdna say.

Believe it when you actually see your results updated and not before.

ianz91
02-13-2019, 11:53 PM
I have a question, why is Living DNA having a difficult time getting more reference samples from populations outside of the British isles? You'd think a European company would have a ton of non British Europeans testing, even Germans testing for example, and the results for Germans would be accurate, but from what I've been reading it seems Living DNA is the worst for those of German ancestry.

timberwolf
02-14-2019, 05:30 AM
Just checked LDNA user Facebook someone has posted results from a early update. So they obviously have developed it.

FionnSneachta
02-14-2019, 09:16 AM
Just checked LDNA user Facebook someone has posted results from a early update. So they obviously have developed it.


They may still be beta results though so they could still change a bit. Going by the Facebook page, it seems to be their versioning tools that are causing delays. They're being cautious with the Family Networks being released and they're probably cautious about releasing the updated estimates. They seem to want to make sure that it's fully working before it's released and don't want to disappoint people who are happy with their current results. We have seen people get very different results when they tested again recently such as people getting higher Irish so it could already be implemented but just hasn't been updated for previous testers.

sktibo
02-15-2019, 01:58 PM
Just checked LDNA user Facebook someone has posted results from a early update. So they obviously have developed it.

That might be mine, I haven't posted it to anthrogenica yet but it was quite a large improvement. Myself and a few others from the Facebook group were lucky to be chosen.

razyn
02-15-2019, 04:17 PM
I took a screen shot of mine when it first came in, early April 2017. The most detailed view showed about 13% Tuscany and Sardinia (places from which I have no known ancestry), but no German or French (places from which I have a lot of known, and a little strongly suspected, ancestry). Having heard these encouraging suggestions that the German data are coming online at LivingDNA, I checked again. My percentages have been tweaked just a bit, but the source populations haven't. So I suspect it's just their algorithm that is shifting, so far. Orion results may be supplanted by Sirius results, for some, but I haven't been tested again with the new chip.

My German ancestry is entirely colonial American, via ports of entry in Pennsylvania and Virginia. It may be quite watered down, but it's easily detected, e.g. by cousin matches with other descendants from the Germanna "second colony," mostly 1717-20 arrivals in Virginia. They were Lutherans from the upper Rhine tributaries, with probably some intermarriage with Swiss Anabaptist families within a generation or two before they emigrated (they thought, to Pennsylvania -- but there was some crooked dealing along the way, and they ended up in Virginia). But that's as far south, in Europe, as I have any known ancestry. And it's nowhere near 13%. Basically, I don't believe that the AIMs or PCs (whatever) they are calling as Tuscan/Sardinian are correct.

Dewsloth
02-15-2019, 04:41 PM
I took a screen shot of mine when it first came in, early April 2017. The most detailed view showed about 13% Tuscany and Sardinia (places from which I have no known ancestry), but no German or French (places from which I have a lot of known, and a little strongly suspected, ancestry). Having heard these encouraging suggestions that the German data are coming online at LivingDNA, I checked again. My percentages have been tweaked just a bit, but the source populations haven't. So I suspect it's just their algorithm that is shifting, so far. Orion results may be supplanted by Sirius results, for some, but I haven't been tested again with the new chip.

My German ancestry is entirely colonial American, via ports of entry in Pennsylvania and Virginia. It may be quite watered down, but it's easily detected, e.g. by cousin matches with other descendants from the Germanna "second colony," mostly 1717-20 arrivals in Virginia. They were Lutherans from the upper Rhine tributaries, with probably some intermarriage with Swiss Anabaptist families within a generation or two before they emigrated (they thought, to Pennsylvania -- but there was some crooked dealing along the way, and they ended up in Virginia). But that's as far south, in Europe, as I have any known ancestry. And it's nowhere near 13%. Basically, I don't believe that the AIMs or PCs (whatever) they are calling as Tuscan/Sardinian are correct.

Like you, we have colonial-era German and Swiss (Millers, Baughmanns, Schwarzes and Fertigs, for starters) on Dad's mom's side, and his father's side never left Germany until the 1930s.
Meanwhile, he has this map from LivingDNA, which they have not updated:
28926
:\

05-13-2019, 09:33 AM
German Project update for our German cousins.
https://livingdna.com/news/german-project-progress-update

JoeyP37
05-13-2019, 12:28 PM
Doing my Ancestry.com tree, I discovered most of my German comes from the Palatinate and South Hesse, except for a Hartman from Hanover on my grandmother's side. She also has a Rinebarger on her side but I didn't trace where he came from in Germany.

Theconqueror
05-13-2019, 03:46 PM
Looks like it applies only to North/North East Germany. It will be interesting how they deal with Bavaria. Also, they could throw the 'dutch wrench' in the mix just for the sake of fun.

Theconqueror
05-13-2019, 03:51 PM
Like you, we have colonial-era German and Swiss (Millers, Baughmanns, Schwarzes and Fertigs, for starters) on Dad's mom's side, and his father's side never left Germany until the 1930s.
Meanwhile, he has this map from LivingDNA, which they have not updated:
28926
:\

Funny I am a match with Millers and Baughmanns as well but I don't have these actual surnames in my genealogy. Do you guys have German mercenaries (came during the american independence war) in your genealogy? Thousands stayed in our ancestral region in Canada (when our population as about 10,000) after the war and married locally.

MatAust21
05-14-2019, 05:34 AM
German Project update for our German cousins.
https://livingdna.com/news/german-project-progress-update

Very exciting news!

These are the results my family has so far:

Father, whose known ancestry is 3/4 German and 1/4 North Italian. The German ancestry is overwhelmingly southwestern:

30410

Myself, 2 different results. One from the actual kit, and the other from the FindMyPast upload:

30411

30412


And, unrelated to the upcoming German project update, my mother, whose ancestry is North Italian + Polish:

30413


I find LivingDNA to be one of the best out there, personally. My own results are a little more messy in comparison to my parents, but I guess that is expected, since I am more mixed, so some segments must be hard to assign. My Italian and German score are somewhat consistent across both tests, but I wish they had not missed the Polish. Also the Chuvash is a little odd.

Dewsloth
05-14-2019, 06:39 PM
Funny I am a match with Millers and Baughmanns as well but I don't have these actual surnames in my genealogy. Do you guys have German mercenaries (came during the american independence war) in your genealogy? Thousands stayed in our ancestral region in Canada (when our population as about 10,000) after the war and married locally.

"My" Millers and Baughmans arrived earlier than the mercenaries: The Baughman family with 8 kids from Zurich (then part of Bavaria) and one daughter (my 5th GGrandmother) married Valentine Cook in PA ~1748-1751 and Miller (possibly from Baden) married Hannah Alford in Simsbury, CT in 1723.

On the other hand, I don't know the origins of some others with German surnames that show up in the PA/VA area, and the author of this book* has the same surname as me and his mercenary ancestors seem to be from the same area as mine, although I can't find a direct tree link.
*https://www.barakabooks.com/catalogue/soldiers-for-sale/

Baughman:
https://www.geni.com/people/John-Baughman-Sr/6000000006453110019

Ralex004
08-15-2019, 11:51 PM
Looks like it applies only to North/North East Germany. It will be interesting how they deal with Bavaria. Also, they could throw the 'dutch wrench' in the mix just for the sake of fun.

What makes you say that? And what do you mean by "the Dutch wrench"?