Cluster 1426 and 1123 Share the Same Branch: Y8426

[rms2]

YFull's new tree, Version 5.03, is out:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

It shows that the very large 1426 cluster under A40 shares a common ancestor with me and my crew, the 1123 cluster: Y8426.

YFull gives Y8426 a tmrca of 4000 ybp, (c. 2000 BC), which lands it in the Bell Beaker period (Bronze Age).

Anyway, this is news to me.

The 1426 cluster is mostly Scottish in origin, while 1123 appears to be a Welsh Borders cluster.

There goes the neighborhood! ;)

[JMcB]

YFull's new tree, Version 5.03, is out:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

It shows that the very large 1426 cluster under A40 shares a common ancestor with me and my crew, the 1123 cluster: Y8426.

YFull gives Y8426 a tmrca of 4000 ybp, (c. 2000 BC), which lands it in the Bell Beaker period (Bronze Age).

Anyway, this is news to me.

The 1426 cluster is mostly Scottish in origin, while 1123 appears to be a Welsh Borders cluster.

There goes the neighborhood! ;)

Very interesting!

So, if I'm understanding correctly, it looks like you did form a new subclade. Is that you YF08577 down there along with you cousin? Also, I'm curious, when you say clusters 1426 & 1123 where do those numbers come from?

15118

Congratulations!

[rms2]

Very interesting!

So, if I'm understanding correctly, it looks like you did form a new subclade. Is that you YF08577 down there along with you cousin? Also, I'm curious, when you say clusters 1426 & 1123 where do those numbers come from?

15118

Congratulations!

Yes, that's me, YF08577. YF08619 is my 109/111 Stevens match. One step back up above us, at BY160, is a 106/111 match for me, YF08776, but with a different surname (Samuel).

Those cluster names came from Mike Walsh's collection of STR clusters. The 1426 cluster takes its name from its values of 392=14 and 447=26. The 1123 cluster takes its name from its values of 385a/b=11 and 390=23. Those names were created a long time before we knew to which subclades of L21 they belonged. My cluster was actually first spotted by Rick Arnold, which is embarrassing, because I should have noticed my own cluster before he did. ;)

[JMcB]

Very good news!

So again, if I'm not mistaken, you and your cousin's current TMRCA is 550 years ago. Am I remembering correctly that you have another cousin who's still in the yfull pipeline? Or do I have that wrong?

[rms2]

Very good news!

So again, if I'm not mistaken, you and your cousin's current TMRCA is 550 years ago. Am I remembering correctly that you have another cousin who's still in the yfull pipeline? Or do I have that wrong?

Here's something I wrote elsewhere on that score:

YFull gives YF08619 and me a tmrca of 550 years as a midpoint in a range of 1050-250 years, but notice that 250 years is the low end of that range. I think 250-300 years is about right (in other words, our common ancestor was born about 1700-1750). 550 years is too long ago, since that would have us sharing a most recent common ancestor at the very outer limit of the adoption of fixed surnames, especially in Wales, where it is likely our line originated. The paper trail evidence indicates that 250-300 years is probably the best estimate. So, I would not say YFull is wrong, just that the lower end of their tmrca estimate is best.

We do have another Stevens cousin in the Big Y pipeline. He is a 108/111 match for me. His results are predicted for the middle of May, but I'm hoping they'll come in earlier.

Recent genealogical research indicates a most recent common ancestor for us who was born about 1700-1750, but a bit earlier, maybe in the late 17th century, is possible. The family appears to have come from the vicinity of Ellicott's Mills (now Ellicott City), Maryland, to Fayette County, Pennsylvania, and may have been in Talbot County, Maryland, before that.

[JMcB]

Those cluster names came from Mike Walsh's collection of STR clusters. The 1426 cluster takes its name from its values of 392=14 and 447=26. The 1123 cluster takes its name from its values of 385a/b=11 and 390=23. Those names were created a long time before we knew to which subclades of L21 they belonged. My cluster was actually first spotted by Rick Arnold, which is embarrassing, because I should have noticed my own cluster before he did. ;)

Okay, now I get it. That's like my I1 cluster designation which is known as the 14/22 Complex.

[rms2]

YFull gives the terminal SNP shared by YF08619 and I, FGC36974, an unrounded age estimate of 365 years. That's getting closer than that midpoint tmrca of 550 years. FGC36974 is probably a few generations older than our mrca, and that's what the paper trail evidence indicates, as well, although we still have not been able to pinpoint who exactly our common ancestor is. We have a group of known suspects, but we have not been able to identify which of them is our ancestor yet.

[JMcB]

Here's something I wrote elsewhere on that score:

YFull gives YF08619 and me a tmrca of 550 years as a midpoint in a range of 1050-250 years, but notice that 250 years is the low end of that range. I think 250-300 years is about right (in other words, our common ancestor was born about 1700-1750). 550 years is too long ago, since that would have us sharing a most recent common ancestor at the very outer limit of the adoption of fixed surnames, especially in Wales, where it is likely our line originated. The paper trail evidence indicates that 250-300 years is probably the best estimate. So, I would not say YFull is wrong, just that the lower end of their tmrca estimate is best.

We do have another Stevens cousin in the Big Y pipeline. He is a 108/111 match for me. His results are predicted for the middle of May, but I'm hoping they'll come in earlier.

Recent genealogical research indicates a most recent common ancestor for us who was born about 1700-1750, but a bit earlier, maybe in the late 17th century, is possible. The family appears to have come from the vicinity of Ellicott's Mills (now Ellicott City), Maryland, to Fayette County, Pennsylvania, and may have been in Talbot County, Maryland, before that.

From what I understand when your cousin's results come in, it should bring your TMRCA closer to the present and more in line with your research. Hopefully, Igmayka or someone else who knows will comment and confirm or deny my understanding of the process.

At any rate, good luck!

[rms2]

From what I understand when your cousin's results come in, it should bring your TMRCA closer to the present and more in line with your research. Hopefully, Igmayka or someone else who knows will comment and confirm or deny my understanding of the process.

At any rate, good luck!

Hopefully, it will, but I think YFull already has us right at the low end of their tmrca estimate. It's a range anyway.

[rms2]

YFull's new tree, Version 5.03, is out:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

It shows that the very large 1426 cluster under A40 shares a common ancestor with me and my crew, the 1123 cluster: Y8426.

YFull gives Y8426 a tmrca of 4000 ybp, (c. 2000 BC), which lands it in the Bell Beaker period (Bronze Age).

Anyway, this is news to me.

The 1426 cluster is mostly Scottish in origin, while 1123 appears to be a Welsh Borders cluster.

There goes the neighborhood! ;)

Apparently I am the one guy under BY160 with a clear derived read (just one) for Y8426 and its apparent equivalent FGC5572. The other two guys in my cluster with Big Y results who are on YFull's tree, YF08619 and YF08776, are derived for a bunch of Y8426 SNPs that are one-star-out-of-five, low confidence SNPs (I am derived for those, too), but they have no calls at Y8426/FGC5572.

Apparently YFull went ahead and put us all under Y8426 because of the cumulative evidence of all those low-confidence SNPs plus my Y8426+ and FGC5572+ result. It seems Y8426 is not in the Big Y's targeted regions, but was somehow picked up in my case. Fortunately, FTDNA offers an individual SNP test for FGC5572. YF08619, my Stevens cousin, has ordered that test to confirm whether this is the real deal or some kind of individual quirk.

I wonder what it would take to get FGC5572 added to FTDNA's R1b-DF41 SNP Pack.

Of course, it would be really nice if the price of the Big Y came down to about $250. Then we would really experience a data bonanza.

[rms2]

Apparently I am the one guy under BY160 with a clear derived read (just one) for Y8426 and its apparent equivalent FGC5572. The other two guys in my cluster with Big Y results who are on YFull's tree, YF08619 and YF08776, are derived for a bunch of Y8426 SNPs that are one-star-out-of-five, low confidence SNPs (I am derived for those, too), but they have no calls at Y8426/FGC5572.

Apparently YFull went ahead and put us all under Y8426 because of the cumulative evidence of all those low-confidence SNPs plus my Y8426+ and FGC5572+ result. It seems Y8426 is not in the Big Y's targeted regions, but was somehow picked up in my case. Fortunately, FTDNA offers an individual SNP test for FGC5572. YF08619, my Stevens cousin, has ordered that test to confirm whether this is the real deal or some kind of individual quirk
. . .

YF08619 got an FGC5572+ result, which pretty much confirms that the 1123 cluster, which is BY160+, is on that Y8426/FGC5572 branch with the 1426 cluster, which is A40+.

One of the 1426 guys also got an FGC5572+ from FTDNA just recently, as well, which firms up that side of things.

[Dubhthach]

Just on FGC5572, we now know that MC21 is also FGC5572+ due to SNP testing in FTDNA, we probably need to get in touch with Alex Williamson and point out that FGC5572 showed up in your BigY and also that it's been tested via traditional Sanger methods to be more widespread than just 1426 cluster.

[simdadams]

Just on FGC5572, we now know that MC21 is also FGC5572+ due to SNP testing in FTDNA, we probably need to get in touch with Alex Williamson and point out that FGC5572 showed up in your BigY and also that it's been tested via traditional Sanger methods to be more widespread than just 1426 cluster.

Would that be my test that was kindly sponsored ?

From my email from FTDNA group admin

I see you came back as FGC5572+, this is very interesting as it now links three seperate DF41 clusters together. These been the 1426 cluster (Galloway etc.), the 1123 cluster (Wales, Welsh borders) and MC21, what this means is that all three clusters are more closely related to each other via shared ancestor (who first carried FGC5572) than they are to other DF41 clusters (my own for example).

[rms2]

Would that be my test that was kindly sponsored ?

From my email from FTDNA group admin

I see you came back as FGC5572+, this is very interesting as it now links three seperate DF41 clusters together. These been the 1426 cluster (Galloway etc.), the 1123 cluster (Wales, Welsh borders) and MC21, what this means is that all three clusters are more closely related to each other via shared ancestor (who first carried FGC5572) than they are to other DF41 clusters (my own for example).

Yep. Very cool. All Britons, I think, rather than Gaels, but I could be wrong.

[Dubhthach]

Yep. Very cool. All Britons, I think, rather than Gaels, but I could be wrong.

Well Galloway is the land of the Gall-Ghaeil (eg. Norse-Gaels) after all ;) however the appearance of Old Irish in Galloway dates to the Viking period. What I would say is that a spilt of Goidelic/Brythonic is really quite a late thing given how old our haplogroup and it's subclades are. It's probable that by time of Roman incursion into Southern Britain that linguistic difference between what would become "Proto-Brythonic" and "Proto-Goidelic" would be along the lines of difference between say Dutch and German. eg. some sound-changes not been shared.

MC21 for example includes McMillan (Highlands) and Conn (whose MDKA is Ireland). I imagine given age of FGC5572 that it dates to a Proto-Celtic (if even Proto-Italo-Celtic) linguistic stage.

[simdadams]

Can anyone point me to resources on our place on the tree and in particular its current known history or are we too early in research to know its place , I have seen much about further up from DF41/MC21 that L21 is considered a haplogroup strongly associated with Celts , but do we know more at present on the tree lower down and its migration patterns?

my paper tree goes back to Devon c1690 and think DF41 etc is a Celtic fringe of the isles type of group. I have no known Scots or Irish ancestry as yet on paper although ironically my 2nd Great Grandfather was born in Lurgan , Armagh but that was due to his fathers posting there (Excise) unless he was cuckold.

Anyway I ramble I am not an expert but happy to read papers , cheers Simon

[rms2]

We don't know a lot about DF41 and its subclades. If we get miraculously lucky or blessed, we may get a DF41+ guy among the Bell Beaker remains from the recent Olalde et al paper when the raw data become available (but I would be absolutely gobsmacked if that happens).

We have the Royal Stewarts who are DF41 and L746, and the famous Guinness brewing family, which is DF41.

That's about it for what we know.

[rms2]

YFull's new R1b tree, version 5.05, gives Y8426 a tmrca of 3900 ybp (1950 BC), which is Bronze Age. Since the 1426 cluster is clearly Scottish, and our cluster, 1123, is clearly Welsh and Welsh Borders, I am wondering about the connection. A common y-dna ancestor in the Bronze Age, then 1426 shows up in Scotland and 1123 shows up in Wales. Which cluster moved, or did both of them move? And when did the movement take place?

Probably we'll never know, but it is interesting to think about.

We see a similar connection between Wales and Scotland in R1b-L1335.

Of course there is the story of Cunedda (Kenneth) and the arrival in Wales of the "Men of the North" (Yr Hen Ogledd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd)) in the 5th century AD.

I'm not claiming that as the source of 1123, but it is interesting.

[rms2]

YFull's new R1b tree, version 5.05, gives Y8426 a tmrca of 3900 ybp (1950 BC), which is Bronze Age. Since the 1426 cluster is clearly Scottish, and our cluster, 1123, is clearly Welsh and Welsh Borders, I am wondering about the connection. A common y-dna ancestor in the Bronze Age, then 1426 shows up in Scotland and 1123 shows up in Wales. Which cluster moved, or did both of them move? And when did the movement take place?

Probably we'll never know, but it is interesting to think about.

We see a similar connection between Wales and Scotland in R1b-L1335.

Of course there is the story of Cunedda (Kenneth) and the arrival in Wales of the "Men of the North" (Yr Hen Ogledd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd)) in the 5th century AD.

I'm not claiming that as the source of 1123, but it is interesting.

In doing further reading, I was reminded that there was a longstanding connection between what is now Wales and the Britons of what is now southern Scotland, Carlisle and Dumbarton in the west and Gododdin in the east.

So, it's not likely we're ever going to figure out how Y8426 connects the 1426 and 1123 clusters historically.

[Dubhthach]

So we now have our first Iberian origin FGC5572+ lineage (via Puerto Rico), what's interesting is we also have an Iberian origin DF41+ lineage that is FGC5572-, also A874+ is confiremed to be FGC5572- (tester is from Netherlands) and we have another FGC5572+ in the shape of Kelly (152124) who is from Ireland.

It's quite an interesting spread of lineages that are united by FGC5572! eg. Wales/Borders, England, Galloway, Ireland, Spain

[rms2]

So we now have our first Iberian origin FGC5572+ lineage (via Puerto Rico), what's interesting is we also have an Iberian origin DF41+ lineage that is FGC5572-, also A874+ is confiremed to be FGC5572- (tester is from Netherlands) and we have another FGC5572+ in the shape of Kelly (152124) who is from Ireland.

It's quite an interesting spread of lineages that are united by FGC5572! eg. Wales/Borders, England, Galloway, Ireland, Spain

YFull has the mrca of Y8426 (FGC5572) dated to about 1950 BC, which would make it likely he was a Bell Beaker guy, the son of a DF41 who was probably already in the Isles by that time, given the dates for the British and Irish DF13+ BB guys whose results we have thus far.