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View Full Version : East and West of Offa's Dyke: A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words



rms2
06-16-2013, 12:26 AM
Here's something interesting from a recent edition of the Welsh tv program Corff Cymru about the differences between the Welsh and the English. Dr. Andy Grierson found a pretty startling difference between y-dna west and east of Offa's Dyke, the old boundary between Anglo-Saxon Mercia and the Welsh kingdom of Powys, or, more broadly, between Anglo-Saxon England and Wales. As you can see, on the west or Welsh side of Offa's Dyke, L21 runs around 50%, sometimes more. East of Offa's Dyke, in Shropshire, L21 drops to 25% of the total. The photo below is a shot of Dr. Grierson's laptop that appeared on the tv show.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/892/lzux.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/lzux.jpg/)

rms2
06-16-2013, 12:35 PM
It would be nice if we knew the proportions of the other y haplogroups in that area, i.e., how much DF27, how much U106 (probably L48), how much U152, etc. It would be especially interesting to see if there is as drastic a drop off in U106 going west over Offa's Dyke as there is in L21 heading east. Of course, 25% of the total (in Shropshire) is still a substantial amount of L21.

RobertCasey
06-16-2013, 05:45 PM
Eupedia have nice maps for most of the major European YSNPs. As you move from Ireland to southeastern England, R-L21 continues to rapidly drop off in percentages:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L21

rms2
06-16-2013, 06:56 PM
Eupedia have nice maps for most of the major European YSNPs. As you move from Ireland to southeastern England, R-L21 continues to rapidly drop off in percentages:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L21

I see Maciamo has updated that map since he let me use it on the R-L21 Plus Project web site "Results" page. I'll have to post the updated version.

avalon
08-24-2013, 08:31 PM
Here's something interesting from a recent edition of the Welsh tv program Corff Cymru about the differences between the Welsh and the English. Dr. Andy Grierson found a pretty startling difference between y-dna west and east of Offa's Dyke, the old boundary between Anglo-Saxon Mercia and the Welsh kingdom of Powys, or, more broadly, between Anglo-Saxon England and Wales. As you can see, on the west or Welsh side of Offa's Dyke, L21 runs around 50%, sometimes more. East of Offa's Dyke, in Shropshire, L21 drops to 25% of the total. The photo below is a shot of Dr. Grierson's laptop that appeared on the tv show.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/892/lzux.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/lzux.jpg/)

That map of L21 is indeed striking. Do you have any thoughts on why L21 is somewhat lower in Wales than it is in Ireland?

I am referring to the Busby data (which we know is a bit patchy) that has North Wales L21 at 45% whereas in Ireland it is over 70% in all regions. North Wales is also low in U106 and U152 so I am not sure what constitutes the rest of R1b in North Wales.

Webb
08-24-2013, 11:31 PM
That map of L21 is indeed striking. Do you have any thoughts on why L21 is somewhat lower in Wales than it is in Ireland?

I am referring to the Busby data (which we know is a bit patchy) that has North Wales L21 at 45% whereas in Ireland it is over 70% in all regions. North Wales is also low in U106 and U152 so I am not sure what constitutes the rest of R1b in North Wales.

I believe it is SRY2627 and P312*, which could be DF19 and the other various DF27 clades. This is probably why L21 is lower in Wales, these other P312 groups are much more common in Britain than Ireland.

avalon
08-25-2013, 07:34 PM
I believe it is SRY2627 and P312*, which could be DF19 and the other various DF27 clades. This is probably why L21 is lower in Wales, these other P312 groups are much more common in Britain than Ireland.

Thanks. What is the latest thinking on the origin and spread of DF27? Just perusing the DF27 sub-forum, it looks like we need more data for this recently discovered subclade.

I believe some have suggested that it may have arrived in the Isles with Maritime Bell Beaker?

greystones22
08-25-2013, 08:29 PM
That map of L21 is indeed striking. Do you have any thoughts on why L21 is somewhat lower in Wales than it is in Ireland?

I am referring to the Busby data (which we know is a bit patchy) that has North Wales L21 at 45% whereas in Ireland it is over 70% in all regions. North Wales is also low in U106 and U152 so I am not sure what constitutes the rest of R1b in North Wales.

M222 distorts the L21 frequency in Ireland. In my opinion the M222 phenomenon arose through some sort of social selection. A similar selection process may have happened in Wales, but not for an M222 male....
If you look at the Busby supplementary file they list L21 (S145) and S145xM222. They list multiple Irish datasets, but if you calculate the total frequency of L21xM222 across all the data it comes out at 48%, similar to Wales.

Dubhthach
08-25-2013, 09:18 PM
M222 distorts the L21 frequency in Ireland. In my opinion the M222 phenomenon arose through some sort of social selection. A similar selection process may have happened in Wales, but not for an M222 male....
If you look at the Busby supplementary file they list L21 (S145) and S145xM222. They list multiple Irish datasets, but if you calculate the total frequency of L21xM222 across all the data it comes out at 48%, similar to Wales.

From "Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland during the middle Ages":


One of the most important phenomena in a clan-based society is that of
expansion from the top downwards. The seventeenth-century Irish scholar and
genealogist Dualtagh Mac Firbisigh remarked that 'as the sons and families of
the rulers multiplied, so their subjects and followers were squeezed out and
withered away; and this penomenon, the expansion of the ruling or dominant
stocks at the expense of the remainder, is a normal feature in societies of this
type. It has been observed of the modern Basotho of South Africa that 'there is
a constant displacement of commoners by royals [i.e. members of the royal clan]
and of collateral royals by the direct descendants of the ruling prince;, and
this could have been said without adaptation , of any important Gaelic or
Gaelicized lordship of late medieval Ireland.

In Fermanagh, for example the kingship of the Maguires began only with the
accession of Donn Mr in 1282 and the ramification of the family - with the
exception of one or two small and territorially unimportant septs - began with
the sons of the same man. the spread of his descendants can be seen by the
genealogical tract called Geinelaighe Fhearmanach; by 1607 they must have been
in the possesion of at least three-quarters of the total soil of Fermanagh,
having displaced or reduced the clans which had previously held it. The rate
which an Irish clan could itself must not be underestimated. Tulrlough an fhona
O'Donnell, lord of Tirconnell (d. 1423) had eighteen sons (by ten different
women) and fifty-nine grandsons in the male line. Mulmora O'Reilly, the lord of
East Brefny, who died in 1566, had at least fifty-eight O'Reilly grandsons.
Philip Maguire, lord of Fermanagh (d. 1395) had twenty sons by eight mothers,
and we know of at least fifty grandsons. Oliver Burke of Tirawley (two of whose
became Lower Mac William although he himself had never held that position) left
at least thirty-eight grandsons in the male line.

Irish law drew no distinction in matters of inheritance between the legitimate
and the illegitimate and permitted the affiliation of children by their mother's
declaration (see Chapter 4), and the general sexual permissiveness of
medieval Irish society must have allowed a rate of multiplication approaching
that which is permitted by the polygyny practised in, for instance, the clan societies
of southern Africa already cited.

In the above examples Maguire is probably L513+/L69.4+ (Airghialla II cluster). O'Donnell is probably M222+, O'Reilly could also be M222+. That's only 500+ years ago. The Burkes were Cambro-Norman in origin, been "De Burgo" but as can be seen became more "Irish then the Irish themselves" (Marriage, inaguration, leadership rotation among branches, riding horses without stirrups etc.)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Kopfjger
08-26-2013, 01:10 AM
Here's something interesting from a recent edition of the Welsh tv program Corff Cymru about the differences between the Welsh and the English. Dr. Andy Grierson found a pretty startling difference between y-dna west and east of Offa's Dyke, the old boundary between Anglo-Saxon Mercia and the Welsh kingdom of Powys, or, more broadly, between Anglo-Saxon England and Wales. As you can see, on the west or Welsh side of Offa's Dyke, L21 runs around 50%, sometimes more. East of Offa's Dyke, in Shropshire, L21 drops to 25% of the total. The photo below is a shot of Dr. Grierson's laptop that appeared on the tv show.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/892/lzux.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/443/lzux.jpg/)

That's a pretty stark difference on each side of the dyke; I had no idea the contrast would be so evident.

Mikewww
08-26-2013, 03:19 AM
M222 distorts the L21 frequency in Ireland. In my opinion the M222 phenomenon arose through some sort of social selection. A similar selection process may have happened in Wales, but not for an M222 male....
If you look at the Busby supplementary file they list L21 (S145) and S145xM222. They list multiple Irish datasets, but if you calculate the total frequency of L21xM222 across all the data it comes out at 48%, similar to Wales.

I agree that M222 is a phenomenon and I've referred to it as the "Behomoth" but I still think we need to keep in balanced perspective that L21xM222 frequencies of levels like 48% are still out of sight.

alan
08-26-2013, 11:06 AM
The main dent in L21 seems to follow the trajectory from SE England through the midlands. That seems to be almost the maximum impact trajectory of Anglo-Saxon settlement, reflecting the agressive expansion of the Angles. If that sort of axis is looked at alone it overeggs the overall impact in England as it does not seem to have been anywhere nearly as big in northern England. One study did use a similar sort of transect that went from East Anglia to Wales which I think would probably exaggerate the impact on the Anglo-Saxons if it was taken to be representive of England as a whole. It seems that a lot of the English west of the centre-south and north of the midlands didnt suffer anything like as big an impact. Even more so when you consider much of that also was in the Danish area of settlement. Seems to suggest to me that Northumbria from the Humber to the Forth in particular had a large Celtic survival and only moderate Anglian settlement.



That's a pretty stark difference on each side of the dyke; I had no idea the contrast would be so evident.

greystones22
08-27-2013, 09:52 PM
I agree that M222 is a phenomenon and I've referred to it as the "Behomoth" but I still think we need to keep in balanced perspective that L21xM222 frequencies of levels like 48% are still out of sight.

Sorry Mike, that doesn't translate well, what do you mean by "levels like 48% are out of sight" ?
Ignoring M222+ L21 has similar levels in Ireland and Wales, thats all I'm saying.

rms2
08-28-2013, 12:04 PM
Since my main interest in genetics is in using them to help me find out who my immigrant y-dna ancestor was and where he came from, and since the higher order matches I do have seem to point to Wales, I wish we could get the results of Welsh testing into the genetic genealogy databases, like Ysearch, so that I could get a crack at finding some more meaningful matches and perhaps even pinpoint a likely home area. :beerchug:

avalon
08-28-2013, 07:55 PM
Hi Greystones,

I sent you a PM about a question of mine on the Wales FTDNA thread. Not sure if you've read it yet?