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Berengar
04-15-2017, 10:40 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, and tried to read as much recently as possible in the theme, but please do excuse me if I ask stupid questions someday.
So, according to FTDNA I'm J1-M267, and also according to nevgen.org, quite possibly part of the Z1828 group. I could only trace back my family to 17th century, but the surname is rather rare, occuring exclusively in Bern and Luzern area in the 15th century (today's ethnic German inhabited Switzerland, also northern edge of the High Alps as much as I know).

I would be grateful, if you could point out any articles or studies about J1 in Central Europe to me. Though I know it is impossible to know for sure, but what would be your take, how could my ancestors get there? Travelling with the settling German tribes, or is antiquity a more realistic time for this migration? Could they be living there ever since Hallstatt culture, or Neolithic times maybe?

Thanks, B.

lgmayka
04-15-2017, 10:57 PM
J-Z1828 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/) is rather general.

Agamemnon
04-15-2017, 11:04 PM
J1-Z1828's TMRCA is around 9,000 years old, in order to know more about your paternal lineage you'd need to narrow down to a specific subclade under Z1842 or BY69.

J1 DYS388=13
04-16-2017, 06:11 AM
Berengar, are you 629350 on FTDNA's J1 Project? If not, could you join that project please? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults

You might belong to this interesting branch: https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

Berengar
04-16-2017, 09:48 AM
I already joined the J1 project, my kit is 636364. As BigY seems a bit too costy for me atm, I wanted to see my options first, and am awaiting results for Z1828 SNP pack. Any advice on how to proceed afterwards?

J1 DYS388=13
04-16-2017, 10:29 AM
Right, your data has already been notice on a Russian forum where one of the leading amateur researchers has declared you to be "Another Teutonic L1189 - sounds good!"

You probably belong to either the gold cone or gold cross cluster on my map at https://drive.google.com/open?id=16J...0M&usp=sharing

I need to look up what SNPs are in the Z1828 pack. Then I can advise you further.

J1 DYS388=13
04-16-2017, 11:50 AM
I can't find any information on a Z1828 pack.

Anyway, I know five people have results from some SNP pack, and they benefitted from that. Look at the J1 tree built by an expert using BigY cases, http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree , find the Z1828 box. Then go down the tree through the BY69 box to the L1189 box. Your data looks like an L1189. With SNP pack results, you should find out which of the three boxes under that you belong to.

Your results won't appear in the tree without taking the BigY, but it will still be informative to you.

The ZS3178 box is what I call the gold cross cluster on my map. That is German and Norwegian.

The ZS10764 box on the right is what I call the gold cone cluster on my map. That is a German and a Finn whose line must have been German 900 years ago.

The ZS3128 box in the middle is what I call the gold flower cluster on my map. That consists of a Ukrainian, a Brit, an Albanian, an ethnic Greek from northwest Turkey, and a bunch of cases without the BigY but with SNP results.

That should help you interpret your results.

Abd.H
04-16-2017, 10:53 PM
I am also J1a3
first when I received my results FTDNA put me only J1-M267, and according to nevgen I was J1a3-Z1828
when I joined J1 project ,the admin predict me as J-CTS1460 ,so I ordered CTS1460 SNP ,but the result came negative .
So I decided to order J1 - M267 SNP Pack and finally I received my final SNP as J-ZS3089
It took 3 months and 425$ to know my final SNP
So I recommend you to take J1 - M267 SNP Pack

epp
05-05-2017, 10:13 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum, and tried to read as much recently as possible in the theme, but please do excuse me if I ask stupid questions someday.
So, according to FTDNA I'm J1-M267, and also according to nevgen.org, quite possibly part of the Z1828 group. I could only trace back my family to 17th century, but the surname is rather rare, occuring exclusively in Bern and Luzern area in the 15th century (today's ethnic German inhabited Switzerland, also northern edge of the High Alps as much as I know).

I would be grateful, if you could point out any articles or studies about J1 in Central Europe to me. Though I know it is impossible to know for sure, but what would be your take, how could my ancestors get there? Travelling with the settling German tribes, or is antiquity a more realistic time for this migration? Could they be living there ever since Hallstatt culture, or Neolithic times maybe?

Thanks, B.
My analysis of STRs suggests that J1a3's initial development was most likely in Central Europe, with J1a/J1a3 having arrived there from the Black Sea Region during the Neolithic (long before Hallstatt, and some time after I and R1 moved there).
I estimate that the majority of surviving J1a3 (including ZS3089) most likely derives from a splinter group that migrated back from East Central Europe to the Caucasus in perhaps the third millennium BC. Other J1a3 appears to have been mostly eliminated in Central Europe (possibly due to the expansion of R1), with your suggested group (L1189) being its only significant surviving subclade.

J1 DYS388=13
05-06-2017, 09:31 AM
Interesting. I haven't heard that theory before.

epp
05-06-2017, 03:02 PM
Interesting. I haven't heard that theory before.
Thanks, it's refreshing to receive a polite response on this forum! If you know of any other hypotheses regarding the origin and development of J1a3, I would be interested to learn more about them.

J1 DYS388=13
05-06-2017, 03:20 PM
Let's look at Victar Mas's J1 tree http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

The M267 box is 22072yBP. Would you agree that mutation took place in the northern Middle East?

Can you work your way down that tree and suggest where the subsequent boxes occurred?

epp
05-06-2017, 04:56 PM
Let's look at Victar Mas's J1 tree http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

The M267 box is 22072yBP. Would you agree that mutation took place in the northern Middle East?
Yes, I agree the northern Middle East is likely for M267, and indeed for YSC65 & YSC1283.



Can you work your way down that tree and suggest where the subsequent boxes occurred?
There are a lot of boxes! Z1828 is uncertain - my suggestion is most likely northern Middle East when it started to branch off, and East Central Europe (Hungary/Slovakia) by the time it was fully formed. BY69 & Z18471 are uncertain (perhaps East Central Europe with R1b). L1189 - most likely Upper Rhine (perhaps with R1b). Z1842 - possibly East Central Europe, with migration to the Northern Caucasus. Z18436 & ZS3089 - most likely Northern Caucasus.

In such detailed terms and with the quantity of data we have, it's hard to estimate with any accuracy - these are little more than my best guesses in the circumstances. Are there different ideas? I note the tree has a very young branch for Z18471 identified as "Armenian" - although I suppose this could be either (i) suggestive of an origin still back in the Northern Middle East, (ii) a component of the hypothesised Z1842 back-migration or (iii) a component of later Celtic migrations into Anatolia.

By the way, I think the similar ages given to Z1828 and Z1842 in the tree could be misleading, as my STR data estimates that Z1828 started to branch off from other J1a long (several millennia) before Z1842 was fully formed.

J1 DYS388=13
05-06-2017, 06:54 PM
Yes, there is an alternative theory. It is that Z1828 originated in Anatolia. Its Z1842 branch went north to the Caucasus and south to northern Syria with the spread of animal husbandry. As for the other Z1828 branch, BY69, the Armenian Z18471 only looks like a young branch. It has five members, all apparently cousins, only one of which has taken the BigY. I don't know where the estimate of 177yBP came from. That cluster is not from Armenia, it is from south central Anatolia. So could it be a "homeland" case for Z18471, from which L1189 branched after about 3,400 years? Granted, L1189 could be a branch of European origin.

epp
05-06-2017, 09:36 PM
Yes, there is an alternative theory. It is that Z1828 originated in Anatolia. Its Z1842 branch went north to the Caucasus and south to northern Syria with the spread of animal husbandry. As for the other Z1828 branch, BY69, the Armenian Z18471 only looks like a young branch. It has five members, all apparently cousins, only one of which has taken the BigY. I don't know where the estimate of 177yBP came from. That cluster is not from Armenia, it is from south central Anatolia. So could it be a "homeland" case for Z18471, from which L1189 branched after about 3,400 years? Granted, L1189 could be a branch of European origin.
Could be. What we can say is that it doesn't look as if Z1828 is of North Caucasian origin, as North Caucasian samples only appear in the apparently younger of the two basal branches, with the other branch also being spread over a wider geographical area. The range and timescales of this spread seem to mirror those of R1, leading me to speculate that the remnants of J1a3 that didn't retreat into the Caucasus mountains were swallowed up within R1 communities.
My analysis suggests that, at the estimated time of Z1828's primary branching, R1b was most likely moving into Central Anatolia and Western Europe from East Central Europe, and so BY69 (arriving in the same places at similar times) might have moved with it.
The samples of Honeychuck and Pogorilyak demonstrate Central European outlying BY69 that is L1169-, so European BY69 doesn't seem to be restricted to the apparently younger L1189 subclade.

J1 DYS388=13
05-07-2017, 06:29 AM
My guess is that a Z18471 went from Anatolia to the Balkans, or at least to the Sea of Marmara area, during the Neolithic, and that the L1189 branch arose there. Or maybe it was a BY69 man who went to Europe, and the odd Armenians are from a back-migration to Anatolia.

I am separated from the L1189 branch by 7635yBP, so my line was probably a separate stray during the Neolithic. I can't find any "upstream" matches outside of the Carpathians and Poland.

You are well informed. What is your background in this field?

epp
05-07-2017, 05:23 PM
My guess is that a Z18471 went from Anatolia to the Balkans, or at least to the Sea of Marmara area, during the Neolithic, and that the L1189 branch arose there. Or maybe it was a BY69 man who went to Europe, and the odd Armenians are from a back-migration to Anatolia.

I am separated from the L1189 branch by 7635yBP, so my line was probably a separate stray during the Neolithic. I can't find any "upstream" matches outside of the Carpathians and Poland.

You are well informed. What is your background in this field?
I'm just an amateur.
Your extra information and the map are really useful, and I now reckon your guess is better than mine was (in that it doesn't seem that J1a3 migrated from Anatolia to Central Europe until at least BY69). The question is - was this migration more likely at BY69's origin or a later point?
If the map is correct in identifying ZS3202 and Z18471 as mutually exclusive, then the ftDNA evidence would suggest that BY69 most likely arose in Central Europe, as its two branches both have Central European elements and only one branch seems to have an Anatolian element.
But is there any proof that ZS3202+ individuals are Z18471- and vice versa, as the map suggests? (Perhaps you have some further information on this?) If there is a possibility that these SNPs are equivalent or that one is a subclade of the other, then my analysis of STR divergence would suggest that J1a3 most likely migrated from Anatolia to Europe after BY69 arose (with L1189/pre-L1189 and ZS3202/pre-ZS3202).

J1 DYS388=13
05-07-2017, 06:49 PM
Yes, ZS3202 and Z18471 are mutually exclusive. We know that from BigY results, as shown on Victar Mas's J1 tree http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

They join at the BY69 box, 7635yBP.

What area do you mean by Central Europe? I want to check the 5635BC date against the spread of the Neolithic.

epp
05-07-2017, 08:13 PM
Yes, ZS3202 and Z18471 are mutually exclusive. We know that from BigY results, as shown on Victar Mas's J1 tree http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree They join at the BY69 box, 7635yBP.
OK. It's just that I couldn't see the evidence of this in ftDNA's data.


What area do you mean by Central Europe? I want to check the 5635BC date against the spread of the Neolithic.
Hungary/Slovakia to Southern Germany. My own age estimates for BY69's origin tie up approximately with Victar Mas's tree - around 5,000BC, or perhaps slightly later.

Berengar
05-13-2017, 07:48 AM
Great to read this conversation here, and it is quite fascinating. It turned out in the meantime that I belong to ZS3128, and according to ftdna Z31382 was also positive underneath. Funny thing is, I am ethnic german, originating from Swabian population, but the family has been living in Hungary for 300 years. Maybe I'm back where my ancestors were in the bronze age?

J1 DYS388=13
05-13-2017, 08:49 AM
So the Russians and I guessed wrong. I've put a gold flower marker for you on my Google Map https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

This is a bit of a mystery. Look at those widespread gold flower cases, and ponder where their common male ancestor might have been in 1200BC.

In turn, the common ancestor of everyone on that map except for the gold sun case lived about 1800BC. I wonder where?

Berengar
05-13-2017, 09:43 AM
As for my family the surename could be originating on the northern slopes of the Swiss Alps, Luzern or Bern region. If that was the case in the middle ages, theres a chance that the ancestors did not arrive from the north with the Germanic tribes but were remnant of the romanized population there, originating from the south in the antiquity.

epp
05-13-2017, 10:17 AM
Great to read this conversation here, and it is quite fascinating. It turned out in the meantime that I belong to ZS3128, and according to ftdna Z31382 was also positive underneath. Funny thing is, I am ethnic german, originating from Swabian population, but the family has been living in Hungary for 300 years. Maybe I'm back where my ancestors were in the bronze age?
That would probably be my guess. Re-checking my calculations, these are my most likely estimates based on ftDNA's data:
Current J1a3 samples had a common ancestor in 5,000 BC based in Anatolia. All fairly close to this point in time, J1a3 split into a number of branches, of which 4 are known to survive (Z18471* with origin in Anatolia, Z1842 with common origin in the Caucasus, and ZS3202 and pre-L1189 with common origin in Central Europe). It would seem that European J1a3 migrated there with other early farming populations during the Neolithic, and was subsequently largely eliminated. Its only surviving subclades of any size are Z1842 and L1189, which each began to develop in 2,000 BC in the Northern Caucasus and Southern Germany respectively (perhaps subsumed within J2a1b and R1b populations respectively).
(Incidentally, probably the Guzelimian sample has allowed Victar Mas to define L1189 as a subclade of Z18471, whereas yfull still identifies these SNPs as equivalent.)

epp
05-13-2017, 10:34 AM
So the Russians and I guessed wrong. I've put a gold flower marker for you on my Google Map https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

This is a bit of a mystery. Look at those widespread gold flower cases, and ponder where their common male ancestor might have been in 1200BC.

In turn, the common ancestor of everyone on that map except for the gold sun case lived about 1800BC. I wonder where?

Yes, I agree. It's hard to say, but my guess is Germany.

J1 DYS388=13
05-13-2017, 10:56 AM
A lot to think about in epp's analysis. But I certainly can't speak against it.

Any thoughts on that Kurdish case which is in Berengar's cluster?

epp
05-13-2017, 04:48 PM
A lot to think about in epp's analysis. But I certainly can't speak against it.

Any thoughts on that Kurdish case which is in Berengar's cluster?
It's difficult to speculate, as there are only 12 STR readings for it; but it seems very close to apparently Spanish and Albanian samples in particular.
Has anyone considered whether the L1189 samples could be predominantly of Jewish origin? (In which case, the whole Neolithic European origin hypothesis could be a red herring?)

RCO
05-13-2017, 05:48 PM
I think Jewish as well as Arab J1 clusters are pretty well settled and organized downstream of J1-P58 in Semitic speaking regions to the South while the basal and ancient J1 Northern branches older than 15000 years usually have small but pretty well organized clusters in Europe with completely different origins and frequencies.

J1 DYS388=13
05-13-2017, 05:52 PM
I was open to the possibility of a Jewish connection from the start. But no examples ever materialised. And as Ricardo said, Jewish DNA is very very well studied.

Berengar
05-13-2017, 05:58 PM
Well, if only you consider the historical boundaries of yamnaja culture, which is thought to be the pivot of the indo-European expansion, as well as predominantly R1a R1b populations, it is not hard to imagine they could have brought several J subclades with them, as they were neighbouring the Caucasus from the North. With the expansion of R1 clades, J could easily have gotten from Britain to all the mediterranean. But apart from bronze age migrations, the movements of romanized populations of the late antiquity could have affected the spread of J1a3 samples quite considerably.

That being said, I see no reason to exclude a Jewish origin after all.

J1 DYS388=13
05-13-2017, 06:10 PM
That being said, I see no reason to exclude a Jewish origin after all.

Well, find the data. I've only ever seen one Jewish J1 with DYS388=13. I didn't challenge it. It would sound like I was telling him he wasn't Jewish.

epp
05-14-2017, 12:41 AM
My estimate for a ZS3128 point of origin is 500 BC. If we only go back 2,500 years, what could link such a diverse range of sample locations as Spain, Arabia, Siberia, Southern Italy, Ukraine and Albania (especially with a very recent estimated MRCA between Russian/Ukrainian and Arabian samples) - and with the next-closest related sample being Scandinavian?

J1 DYS388=13
05-14-2017, 06:18 AM
How did you get that estimate of 500BC?

epp
05-14-2017, 11:57 AM
How did you get that estimate of 500BC?
Just from my STR variance analysis of confirmed ZS3128 samples on the ftDNA database. There's not that many, so there might be other unsampled outliers that would extend the TMRCA further, but another related sample (ZS3178) looks very recently related to the ZS3128 samples too, so I doubt that ZS3128 is an ancient SNP.

J1 DYS388=13
05-14-2017, 02:42 PM
Consider that Yfull https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/ has calculated a TMRCA of 3100 years using the SNPs from two BigY samples, and Victar Mas of the J1 Project http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree has calculated a TMRCA of 3223 years using the SNPs from four BigY samples.

SNP calculations are supposed to be more accurate than STR calculations.

epp
05-14-2017, 07:32 PM
Consider that Yfull https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/ has calculated a TMRCA of 3100 years using the SNPs from two BigY samples, and Victar Mas of the J1 Project http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree has calculated a TMRCA of 3223 years using the SNPs from four BigY samples.

SNP calculations are supposed to be more accurate than STR calculations.
Yes, some suppose them to be more accurate, but as you say, it's supposition. I don't think we have any way of knowing whether SNPs or STRs are the more accurate. My personal preference is for STRs, as I can largely conduct the tests myself and don't have to rely so much on information supplied by a few individuals.
y full uses 2 samples, Victar Mas 4 samples, my analysis 8 samples. My sample size is too small to make me confident in the resulting estimate, particularly as I have no breakdown of this SNP into subclades. Also, these three tests are based on different samples, so a TMRCA estimate for each sample will inherently be different. However, the results are not too dissimilar - somewhere between 1,223 BC and 500 BC (i.e. not ancient).
My most likely estimate for a place of origin would be somewhere around the Alps, but so small a sample so geographically widely spread with so recent a common ancestor is fairly rare. That's what made me wonder whether there was a common origin for the majority of the samples within the Jewish diaspora, or perhaps ZS1828 spread L1189 to Spain, Southern Italy, Albania, Turkey and Arabia with something like the Vandals and/or even the crusades.

Berengar
05-22-2017, 11:17 AM
Lately this thread narrowed down mostly into L1189+ discussion, especially ZS3128. And also because of that we're not only discussing Central Europe any more.

Maybe it deserves a thread on it's own, but I was curious: is it possible to divide this group into more recent subgroups, and if so what would it take to identify any SNPs underneath?

J1 DYS388=13
05-22-2017, 12:01 PM
Well, all the known branches are the BigY cases on Victar Mas's tree. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

J1 DYS388=13
05-23-2017, 04:18 PM
Well, all the known branches are the BigY cases on Victar Mas's tree. http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

So the three branches of ZS3128 are:

Vysotskiy of Ukraine, on his own
Rusi of Albania, on his own
Edens of England and Mosjidis ethnic Greek from the Istanbul area

ZS3128s without enough detail to be in a branch are:

Marcano of Spain
Correia of Portugal
Sylva of Portugal
Velardi or Vilardo of Calabria Italy
Fayli a Kurd of Iraq
Pogrebnoj
Berengar

Berengar
08-26-2017, 07:11 PM
I'm curious, does anyone have any theory regarding the cultures to where the ZS3128 (or L1189 beforehand) ancestor might have belonged to? Could it have been the Villanovan culture in Northern Italy? I could imagine that the spread to the whole mediterraneum could be due to migrations in antiquity. So basically seeing the spread of current samples in zs3128 and l1189 above, would point to an early bronze age Central European origin in maybe the Bell beaker culture. What do you Think?

J1 DYS388=13
08-26-2017, 08:02 PM
The dates of origin of L1189 and its branch ZS3128 are indeed Bronze Age. But their distribution is too scattered for me to see where they originated. https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing.

An important clue is another branch of L1189, ZS3178. That's a Germanic cluster, with an age of about 4760 years. That suggests to me that its origin was in or near Germany, circa 2760 BC.

Then there's the gold cone cases on the map, also Germanic, but a recent cluster at 875 years. The branch above them is L1189, at about 3897 years. I suppose that also suggests that L1189 was present in the Germanic area in the Bronze Age.

So Bronze Age migration does seem to be the story of L1189 and its branch ZS3128. I don't know what cultures that would have involved. The Bronze Age wasn't specific to any culture.

But the gold flower ZS3128 cases certainly seem to be associated with the Greek Bronze Age.

etripp17
09-11-2017, 02:43 AM
Hello, This is my first post and I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I wanted to see if anyone would be interested in discussing the other Z1828 subclade: Z1842, specifically Z18436 and lower. Since this thread is moving in the BY69 direction, would it be better to create a new thread just for Z1842 and lower?

J1 DYS388=13
09-11-2017, 04:02 AM
Yes, but search the forum first. Z1842 has been mentioned in 43 threads. You might find what you need there.

Jack Johnson
09-19-2017, 11:05 PM
Is J1 DYS388=13 basically J1-z1828, just with a different name? Also you had said you had seen a jewish J1 DYS388=13 sample, could this individual be descended from kurdish converts to judaism? I had read that there were jewish converts in that area of Anatolia and the south Caucasus, and that some of those native lineages were absorbed into the jewish populations there; granted, in very small amounts as it is rarely found in jewish populations. What do think of the idea that the bronze age Kura–Araxes culture was primarily responsible for spreading at least some of the J1, T, L, G2a, and especially J2a and maybe J2b1 lineages to europe? I personally think that there are J1 lineages that have been present in europe since at least the early mesolithic if not the late paleolithic period (do to their upstream position), while there are most likely some european J1 lineages more specific to the neolithic and bronze age.

J1 DYS388=13
09-20-2017, 03:42 AM
Yes, the Z1828 branch was first identified by DYS388=13, which is why I use it as my screen name.

On the one or two Jewish examples, someone slapped me down when I cited something about converts to Judaism. So I don't go there any more.

Keep watching the ancient DNA results coming in. The first ancient Z1828 showed up recently, in western Anatolia.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/y-snp-calls-for-minoans-and-mycenaeans/
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/09/19/135616
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Have we met? Are you a Z1828?

Regards,
Jim

etripp17
09-21-2017, 01:51 AM
Is there a need and or benefit in a J-Z1842 whose family comes from the British Isles taking the Big Y? I am really puzzled about how we got to Ireland/England.

J1 DYS388=13
09-21-2017, 05:45 AM
You would probably get a clue, but maybe not the definitive answer.

Unlike my own branch of Z1828, there is a lot of detail in the Z1842 branch. But I couldn't promise you would get a match within a meaningful time frame such as the past thousand years.

http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree
and a separate analysis at https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z1828/

Watch for the next BigY sale!