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Agamemnon
04-17-2017, 09:41 PM
This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).


FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).


Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.


FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

Il Pap
04-17-2017, 10:08 PM
J1, that mafiosi Haplogroup.:heh:

RCO
04-17-2017, 11:39 PM
Central Mediterranean movements can be complex in time and space, so what kind of lineages belonged to what ethnohistorical groups in the past can be a tricky question, specially when they are shared between different groups. The Sardinian clusters studied by Paolo Francalacci are the most well researched and sampled J1's from Italy in terms of SNP resolution, that should be the model for the other regions.

R.Rocca
04-18-2017, 01:03 PM
This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).


FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).


Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.


FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

Great thread & summary. I know the picture is more complex than we can imagine and impossible to clear up with so few samples, but some of the increased frequency in Western Sicily may also be due to the "Saracen" Arab/Berber invasion. The western half of the island was known to have the stronger Islamic presence whereas the eastern half remained mostly Christian throughout the occupation.

Agamemnon
04-19-2017, 04:25 PM
Great thread & summary. I know the picture is more complex than we can imagine and impossible to clear up with so few samples, but some of the increased frequency in Western Sicily may also be due to the "Saracen" Arab/Berber invasion. The western half of the island was known to have the stronger Islamic presence whereas the eastern half remained mostly Christian throughout the occupation.

Well the strange thing is that none of the J1 lineages from the western parts of Sicily belong to Arabian branches so far, rather, the Arabian branches are found either in the eastern parts of Sicily or on the mainland (FGC4745, for example, could potentially be Arabian, though this is less likely than a Levantine origin). I guess this could be attributed to people moving around, but still, it's pretty strange. Of course, this might well change in the future.

Tltos
04-22-2017, 07:52 PM
Great thread Agamemnon!

In looking at this project the men who are also just J-ZS1711 like my cousin are only from Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. Again Italian results look pretty scarce for this subclade. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-YSC0000076/default.aspx?section=yresults

My cousin is negative for the L823, FGC12309, ZS1766, ZS5891, PF7267, ZS1706. Well negative for everything after the ZS1711. Would I be correct in thinking there are no other SNPs downstream of J-ZS1711 available to test that are not in the J1-M267 SNP Pack?

Pegasusphm1
04-29-2017, 11:24 PM
Great thread Agamemnon!

In looking at this project the men who are also just J-ZS1711 like my cousin are only from Saudi Arabia, and Qatar. Again Italian results look pretty scarce for this subclade. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-YSC0000076/default.aspx?section=yresults

My cousin is negative for the L823, FGC12309, ZS1766, ZS5891, PF7267, ZS1706. Well negative for everything after the ZS1711. Would I be correct in thinking there are no other SNPs downstream of J-ZS1711 available to test that are not in the J1-M267 SNP Pack?

More testing needed for Italy.

fished
04-30-2017, 09:32 PM
Very interesting thread. Might you do a similar breakdown of branches of J2a in South Italy in the future?

Sikeliot
04-30-2017, 10:18 PM
I am going to offer my input on where some of these might have come from, based on geography, history, and my other knowledge. I would love to see an analysis of J2 across southern Italy also, because the west of Sicily lacks many of the subclades of J2 common to the Balkans, which might suggest Levantine J2 is prevalent there.


In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

The other hot spot is around Ragusa, in the southeast of the island. I do not have any explanation for why this is a hot spot, but Ragusa was the first part of eastern Sicily for which the Byzantines lost control to Arabs and Berbers. So it makes sense that it would be higher there, and autosomal DNA bears this out when comparing Ragusa to neighboring Syracuse (where, I believe, J1 is close to nonexistent).


Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).

FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

These could be Phoenician, or they could be a subclade originally from Arabia that established itself both in Lebanon and in Sicily during the Arab conquests of both regions. Remember that Sicily and Lebanon were Arabized at roughly the same time. I would go with Phoenician, though.


Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.


Your conclusions here make sense. There is a part of Messina province that was heavily Arabized (towns such as Alcara Li Fusi, Naso, Capo D'Orlando, etc.). The northern coast of Messina province was more Arabized than the eastern coast of the island, which remained under Byzantine control during most, if not all of, the Arab conquest. Enna has mostly been populated due to migrations inward from the eastern coast.


The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).


Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.


FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

The one found in Balearic islands, Tunisia, Lebanon, Spain, and so on could be Carthaginian. But it appears that most of the J1 in Italy does go back to the Levant.


There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

All of these areas (Calabria, Palermo, etc.) once had a large Jewish population prior to the Spanish Inquisition. While many people left and headed eastward and southward, it makes sense many Jews became Christian, at least publicly.



Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

Mesopotamian or Armenian subclades around western Sicily could be from the Elymians, an Anatolian people who are believed to be related to Hittites and Trojans. The only explanation in eastern Sicily would either be prehistoric Near Eastern influence, or migration from west to east across the island. However, most migration across Sicily was east to west.

Principe
04-30-2017, 11:13 PM
Very interesting thread. Might you do a similar breakdown of branches of J2a in South Italy in the future?

I will make one for Southern Italy, I have done research for J2 in Italy and even presented at Eupedia, I will do a more specific thread for J2a, I will also include J2b.

Principe
04-30-2017, 11:28 PM
Aga great job on this thread, I have additional information for Z18292>ZS2589, as one of the three you mentioned (I am trying to be as private as possible, will not say which of three) is a dear friend of mine, he came from a Crypto-Jewish family and has returned to the Jewish faith, he has another match, which also has Crypto-Jewish ancestry from Palermo (there's a 4th you can add to the list), based on both our research the Z18292>ZS2589 in Italy is Jewish, more specifically Sicilian Jewish.

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 12:16 AM
Interesting, J1-Z18292 (along with J1-ZS2518) is, in my opinion, one of the best contenders for an association with East Semitic speakers (initially at least).

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 12:32 AM
How high in terms of percentage is J1 in the "hot spot" regions? One study from years ago estimated J1 at 10% in Ragusa. But what about Palermo? Palermo was not sampled in that study except for one town, Caccamo, which may not be representative of the region.

Principe
05-01-2017, 01:56 AM
Interesting, J1-Z18292 (along with J1-ZS2518) is, in my opinion, one of the best contenders for an association with East Semitic speakers (initially at least).

Aga, I wouldn't doubt your opinion on this, the best evidence you can get from this will be ancient dna.

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 07:06 PM
How high in terms of percentage is J1 in the "hot spot" regions? One study from years ago estimated J1 at 10% in Ragusa. But what about Palermo? Palermo was not sampled in that study except for one town, Caccamo, which may not be representative of the region.

I would say about ~13% in NW Sicily, though I could be wrong (sampling is inadequate). This goes down to about 7% if we discard all P58- lineages.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 09:34 PM
I would say about ~13% in NW Sicily, though I could be wrong (sampling is inadequate). This goes down to about 7% if we discard all P58- lineages.

This does not help with subclades, but from this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

of the towns studied, these were percentage of J1. The sample size was small and a lot of these towns are unrepresentative of the island's averages, but it might help somewhat.

Trapani: 3.03%
Santa Ninfa: 6.45%
Alcamo: 4.17%
Caccamo: 6.25%
Troina: 3.33%
Ragusa: 10.71%

Mazara del Vallo, Sciacca, and Piazza Armerina had none.

jayvee
05-10-2017, 11:25 PM
I just received the results of my M267 SNP Pack today so now I can officially state that I belong to J-ZS3128. Victar had clustered me with others of this subclade when I first tested almost a year ago, but I wanted to be sure so I bought the Pack when went on sale last month.

I cant read Victars tree its so huge, but according to YFull ZS3128 formed circa 3300 ybp. Any thoughts about where it formed? Its confirmed members in the J1 Project, as few as there are, seem to be all over the map. As far as I can see, Im the only Italian in the bunch.

Thanks for any insights.

J1 DYS388=13
05-11-2017, 07:47 AM
My guess is that ZS3128 formed in the southern Balkans. But I'm guessing. See the gold flower markers at https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

jayvee
05-11-2017, 02:45 PM
My guess is that ZS3128 formed in the southern Balkans. But I'm guessing. See the gold flower markers at https://drive.google.com/open?id=16Js5W1sSDUl_zXDd0CcDm6V3Q0M&usp=sharing

Thanks! Im sure your guess is better than mine.

The South Balkan theory plus the Phokaia sample from Western Anatolia thats listed on the map provide some tantalizing clues as to the expansion of this subclade into the western Mediterranean.

Pegasusphm1
05-22-2017, 06:06 AM
This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).


FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).


Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.


FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

Something else as a heads up for region of Puglia had a very large Jewish populations. 12th century Trani housed one of the largest Jewish communities in Italy. Large forced conversions "Christiani Novelli".... 50 km to the south is the major port of Bari. Famous quote from The twelfth-century French rabbi, Rabbenu Tam, compared Bari and Otranto to Jerusalem, paraphrasing Isaiah 2.3: “From Bari the Torah will come out and the word of God from Otranto.”

I've noted genetic studies have been neglecting these the vary centers of Jewish learning, major population centers, tending to gravitate to areas such a Calabria, Campania for the transit route to Naples. Calabria has revealed some smaller villages with forgotten Jewish heritage, as discovered by Rabbi Aiello. While ignoring the major port such as Bari which has historically been used as the main transit point to the Holy land, and Lebanon. Was the strategic location for Christians crusaders and Muslims as well.

I found a pretty good article, includes a map from the 12th centuries of Jewish population centers for Southern Italy. Maybe helpful in someones research.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/apulia

Pegasusphm1
05-22-2017, 08:59 PM
Well the strange thing is that none of the J1 lineages from the western parts of Sicily belong to Arabian branches so far, rather, the Arabian branches are found either in the eastern parts of Sicily or on the mainland (FGC4745, for example, could potentially be Arabian, though this is less likely than a Levantine origin). I guess this could be attributed to people moving around, but still, it's pretty strange. Of course, this might well change in the future.
Not surprised with Arab markers on eastern Sicily. The key to Sicily is Messinca. You control Messina and the approaches you own Sicily.

Pegasusphm1
05-22-2017, 09:00 PM
Well the strange thing is that none of the J1 lineages from the western parts of Sicily belong to Arabian branches so far, rather, the Arabian branches are found either in the eastern parts of Sicily or on the mainland (FGC4745, for example, could potentially be Arabian, though this is less likely than a Levantine origin). I guess this could be attributed to people moving around, but still, it's pretty strange. Of course, this might well change in the future.
Not surprised with Arab markers on eastern Sicily. The key to Sicily is Messinca. You control Messina and the approaches you own Sicily. If have ever sailed the passage, its heavily traveled by merchant vessels also.

Live picture of shipping traffic, are the same sea lanes of commerce from history.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:15.6/centery:38.2/zoom:6

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 09:19 PM
Not surprised with Arab markers on eastern Sicily. The key to Sicily is Messinca. You control Messina and the approaches you own Sicily.

Western Sicilians have the Levantine branches of J1 it looks like, and more evidence of assimilated Jewish ancestry. The point worth mentioning is that Messina was eventually Arabized: the least Arabized part of Sicily is actually Syracuse.

Targum
05-22-2017, 09:59 PM
diTrani was actually one of the earliest Italian Rabbinical dynasties formed in the 9th and 10th centuries. Anyone who learns Tractate Ketubot (Marital Property Obligations) of the Babylonian Talmud finds on every page the useful (Hebrew Language) printed commentary (Tosafot HaRI"D) of the 12th century Rabbi known as "The RI"D" (Rabbi Yesha'ayahu diTrani).Early members of this family and others in Trani, Bari, and other S. Italian locations authored some of the oldest religious poems preserved in the Mahhzor (special prayer book) used on Rosh HaShanah and Yom HaKippurim (Days of Awe) in the Ashkenazi Rite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_di_Trani

Agamemnon
05-22-2017, 10:10 PM
Western Sicilians have the Levantine branches of J1 it looks like, and more evidence of assimilated Jewish ancestry. The point worth mentioning is that Messina was eventually Arabized: the least Arabized part of Sicily is actually Syracuse.

That seems to be the case so far, though keep in mind that there are also several Jewish branches found in Southern Italy. My own branch (which is specifically Jewish and associated with Jewish Kehunah) is found in Palermo as well as in Calabria and in Campania for example.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 10:33 PM
That seems to be the case so far, though keep in mind that there are also several Jewish branches found in Southern Italy. My own branch (which is specifically Jewish and associated with Jewish Kehunah) is found in Palermo as well as in Calabria and in Campania for example.

Wouldn't Jewish branches of J1 be Levantine in origin?

Agamemnon
05-22-2017, 10:37 PM
Wouldn't Jewish branches of J1 be Levantine in origin?

Yes, a non-Levantine origin for Jewish branches of J1 isn't convincing at this point.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 10:41 PM
So Jewish branches of J1 in Sicily ultimately go to the Levant anyway.

Agamemnon
05-22-2017, 10:43 PM
So Jewish branches of J1 in Sicily ultimately go to the Levant anyway.

Ancient DNA samples from Bronze Age and Iron Age Israel will in all likeliness corroborate a Levantine origin for a vast majority of Jewish lineages.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 11:05 PM
Ancient DNA samples from Bronze Age and Iron Age Israel will in all likeliness corroborate a Levantine origin for a vast majority of Jewish lineages.

Could some of the "Jewish" lineages in Palermo also be Phoenician?

Agamemnon
05-22-2017, 11:16 PM
Could some of the "Jewish" lineages in Palermo also be Phoenician?

Nope, at least two individuals from Palermo are J1-S12192, this is the main subclade of Z18271 and its TMRCA is roughly 1,200 years old. It's the same for the other Jewish branches of J1 found in Italy, they're firmly Jewish for the most part. There are a couple of exceptions (such as J1-ZS241 and J1-ZS227) but none are to be found in Sicily, a Phoenician origin is possible in such cases, but other sources (Syrian/Aramean for example) could work as well.

Pegasusphm1
07-14-2017, 07:28 AM
Nope, at least two individuals from Palermo are J1-S12192, this is the main subclade of Z18271 and its TMRCA is roughly 1,200 years old. It's the same for the other Jewish branches of J1 found in Italy, they're firmly Jewish for the most part. There are a couple of exceptions (such as J1-ZS241 and J1-ZS227) but none are to be found in Sicily, a Phoenician origin is possible in such cases, but other sources (Syrian/Aramean for example) could work as well.

Phoenician / Israelite period they intermarried and shared ships crews...

Pegasusphm1
07-14-2017, 07:31 AM
Italian DNA is a like a pizza pie with all the toppings. Every slice you get a little of this, a little of that...

quxuq
10-01-2017, 07:38 PM
There are now 3 members of Z2223 from Italy, which makes Italy second favourite location after Germany. You can see Rumore and Demartino in Z2223 Cluster B. The other one is Mazzullo (Q3BJ3) on Y-Search. (On Ysearch you can find members of Z2223 from Germany, Spain, France, Hungary and even Bosnia.)

apgene
03-03-2018, 09:11 PM
My Italian paternal lineage has recently come back J-ZS1711. I have documented the family from the port of Napoli back to the 1600s. There was one mention of Taranto on one of the earlier documents but I have not proven any link to the city.

(This person is the product of the ZS1711 plus a Sicilian, also from the island back as far as 1600s at least):
FTDNA buckets the Family Finder origins as 85% Southeast Europe, 9% Asia Minor, 3% West Middle East, < 2% Ashkenazi, < 1% North Africa, < 1% South America. An odd mix for sure.

The aunt of the above person (sister of the Sicilian mother) is:
78% Southeast Europe, 13% Asia Minor, 4% Sephardic, 3% Ashkenazi, < 1% East Middle East, < 1% North African, < 2% West Middle East. This shows that both the paternal line from Napoli as well as the Sicilian he wound up marrying both independently have Eastern roots! Is there any more advanced testing I can do on her DNA? She is the last living person of her generation I have access to. I have full MTDNA and Family Finder done.

Ive read the history on the thread but its hard to gauge how much is conjecture vs facts generally agreed upon using our available knowledge / peer review. Can anyone point to any additional papers / resources?

J1 DYS388=13
03-04-2018, 11:20 AM
Are you in FTDNA's J1 Project? The J1 tree there is no longer updated, but there is an interesting distribution of ZS1711 on the results list at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults ZS1711 is estimated to be about 4,200 years old.

apgene
03-04-2018, 09:12 PM
Are you in FTDNA's J1 Project?

Yes, joined that, J in Italy, and J YSC76 project.

Tltos
03-05-2018, 04:01 AM
My Italian paternal lineage has recently come back J-ZS1711. I have documented the family from the port of Napoli back to the 1600s. There was one mention of Taranto on one of the earlier documents but I have not proven any link to the city.

(This person is the product of the ZS1711 plus a Sicilian, also from the island back as far as 1600s at least):
FTDNA buckets the Family Finder origins as 85% Southeast Europe, 9% Asia Minor, 3% West Middle East, < 2% Ashkenazi, < 1% North Africa, < 1% South America. An odd mix for sure.

The aunt of the above person (sister of the Sicilian mother) is:
78% Southeast Europe, 13% Asia Minor, 4% Sephardic, 3% Ashkenazi, < 1% East Middle East, < 1% North African, < 2% West Middle East. This shows that both the paternal line from Napoli as well as the Sicilian he wound up marrying both independently have Eastern roots! Is there any more advanced testing I can do on her DNA? She is the last living person of her generation I have access to. I have full MTDNA and Family Finder done.

I’ve read the history on the thread but it’s hard to gauge how much is conjecture vs facts generally agreed upon using our available knowledge / peer review. Can anyone point to any additional papers / resources?

Welcome to Anthrogenica apgene!

Well this is a pleasant surprise for me today. My maternal grandfather's family came from Southern Italy, and the direct paternal line is also J-ZS1711! We are from an Arbresh village, and this Y DNA is apparently not really found in the Arbresh. Is there any chance your family has Arbresh ancestry?

My cousin is also in the J1 project, and the J1 Italy Project. I compared their STR markers and they don't match up. GD 14 on 37 markers, but I think that the real story is in the SNPs. I came to this conclusion from my brother's Y DNA, and studying the matches. STRs with his matches did not always add up with the SNPs.

Did you test the J1 SNP Pack? That was the pack that was done to find our result.

francesco-s91
05-11-2018, 02:17 AM
Hi people im ZS1727 that is under the L823 clade the j1 phylogenic tree called this clade (yehudim).
Im from province of salerno.
No known jewish ancestors.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
05-12-2018, 12:40 AM
Hi people im ZS1727 that is under the L823 clade the j1 phylogenic tree called this clade (yehudim).
Im from province of salerno.
No known jewish ancestors.

Hi, i'm zs1727 too. I contacted mr Greenspan told me that results from Geno 2.0 transferred to Ftdna with Zs1727 have to be checked. You have to do a new testing because the zs1727 is not ''reliable''
''We agree that the SNP is not reliable on the chip form, Nat Geo. We are going to disregard the SNP. If you are +/- you should test in a different manner'' that's the answer.

I ordered Zs1706 snp test, i am waiting for results.

francesco-s91
05-12-2018, 12:49 AM
Hi, i'm zs1727 too. I contacted mr Greenspan told me that results from Geno 2.0 transferred to Ftdna with Zs1727 have to be checked. You have to do a new testing because the zs1727 is not ''reliable''
''We agree that the SNP is not reliable on the chip form, Nat Geo. We are going to disregard the SNP. If you are +/- you should test in a different manner'' that's the answer.

I ordered Zs1706 snp test, i am waiting for results.

My is positive to L556

sam-iJ-ZS1727
05-12-2018, 01:01 AM
My is positive to L556

Mine too
which makes the results not reliable.

francesco-s91
05-12-2018, 01:21 AM
I also ordered the yseq superclade panel last week now the kit is back in the laboratory from yseq , in 5 weeks i will have the truth..
But i have an other ftdna account with original kit and im waiting for the results for the j-m267 V3 SNP pack.

sam-iJ-ZS1727
05-12-2018, 01:33 AM
I also ordered the yseq superclade panel last week now the kit is back in the laboratory from yseq , in 5 weeks i will have the truth..
But i have an other ftdna account with original kit and im waiting for the results for the j-m267 V3 SNP pack.

Great. so when you got results, share them with us.
People with Zs1727 : 1 from Tunisia, 1 from Armenia, one from France-italy, 1 from Yemen, 1 from saudi arabia, one from Italy...
No one has the same markers than the other ones...

francesco-s91
05-19-2018, 11:03 AM
Hi group today i recieved my results from ftdna V3snp pack, its J1-ZS241.
So we can say that the geno to ftdna transfer is fake

francesco-s91
05-19-2018, 11:04 AM
Hi group today i recieved my results from ftdna V3snp pack, its J1-ZS241.
So we can say that the geno to ftdna transfer is fake

Lupriac
01-01-2019, 04:08 PM
My teacher is https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8216/ and he's from the same surname you mentioned :)

Pegasusphm1
05-04-2019, 05:42 PM
I've looked at FTDNA and YFULL public trees, appears a pattern has been emerging for PF4872 / L829.

Addition of new SNPs downstream seems to show continuous maritime presence from the earliest periods of bronze age tmes between Italy and eastern Mediterean sea. Some of the clusters also align with specific expansion of trade routes into Europe from the period of Ottoman and kingdoms of Genoa and Venice.

sebaa
06-17-2019, 06:26 AM
Hello everyone,

I thought that it could be interesting to share my father's results as I want to know more about ancestry.

He is from Puglia, from Turi.

His maternal and paternal family are from there. According to Yseq.com he is tested positive for j1-zs2582.
It is a downstream of L862.

What do we know about this terminal ?

Thanks

Tltos
06-17-2019, 03:36 PM
I've looked at FTDNA and YFULL public trees, appears a pattern has been emerging for PF4872 / L829.

Addition of new SNPs downstream seems to show continuous maritime presence from the earliest periods of bronze age tmes between Italy and eastern Mediterean sea. Some of the clusters also align with specific expansion of trade routes into Europe from the period of Ottoman and kingdoms of Genoa and Venice.

I've been wondering what role the Ottoman Empire may play in the migration of some J1.

Pegasusphm1
06-22-2019, 04:35 AM
Hello everyone,

I thought that it could be interesting to share my father's results as I want to know more about ancestry.

He is from Puglia, from Turi.

His maternal and paternal family are from there. According to Yseq.com he is tested positive for j1-zs2582.
It is a downstream of L862.

What do we know about this terminal ?

Thanks FTDNA just updated my J1-PF4867.

Pegasusphm1
06-22-2019, 04:42 AM
I've been wondering what role the Ottoman Empire may play in the migration of some J1.

I saw a report regarding YDNA samples from the Balkins. L829 SNP among all these villiages, Area located across from Italian port of Bari. Surnames had been among the Kingdom of Venice and Ottoman families.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/?fbclid=IwAR11opAU84nkWL0i6vGw5j3DAKwJD59anPWrQLkJ 1N-lA9VHQ8joUCcxjmk

Kelmendasi
06-22-2019, 12:00 PM
I saw a report regarding YDNA samples from the Balkins. L829 SNP among all these villiages, Area located across from Italian port of Bari. Surnames had been among the Kingdom of Venice and Ottoman families.

http://www.gjenetika.com/rezultatet/?fbclid=IwAR11opAU84nkWL0i6vGw5j3DAKwJD59anPWrQLkJ 1N-lA9VHQ8joUCcxjmk
I doubt that the Albanian J-L829 can be connected with the Ottomans. They seem to form their own unique cluster under L829 and seems to be one of the oldest lines of P58 found among us so far. L829 in general is best connected with the Phoenicians and their expansions, in the Middle East it has been found in Lebanon, Palestine and Israel (Druze) and in Europe it has been found mainly in southern Italy though is also found in the Balkans and other regions in Europe at small percentages. It's likely that this line arrived in the Balkans sometime between the Bronze Age and Iron Age.

Pegasusphm1
06-24-2019, 03:32 AM
I doubt that the Albanian J-L829 can be connected with the Ottomans. They seem to form their own unique cluster under L829 and seems to be one of the oldest lines of P58 found among us so far. L829 in general is best connected with the Phoenicians and their expansions, in the Middle East it has been found in Lebanon, Palestine and Israel (Druze) and in Europe it has been found mainly in southern Italy though is also found in the Balkans and other regions in Europe at small percentages. It's likely that this line arrived in the Balkans sometime between the Bronze Age and Iron Age.
Going to travel to Italy later in the year, conduct family genealogy research in Puglia.

patrizio22
06-30-2019, 06:05 PM
Hello,

J1 from the Marche, first known ancestor in the province of Ancona, near Fabriano, in 1730. In 1730 my ancestors were christians, no record of Jewish ancestry. After the transfer from GENO 2.0 to FTDNA, the haplogroup prediction at FTDNA was J-ZS1727 but according to what I have seen here this subclade after a geno transfer was not reliable.

Now, after a Y37 test, the FTDNA J1project put me in the J-L823 subgroup (unclustered).

After the Y37 test, I have matches at FTDNA only for 12 markers. I am apparently in the Cohen modal haplotype. I have J1 and J2 exact matches, those who are J1 like me have Arabic names (probably Levantine and further south), those who are J2 have Jewish surnames.

But in the FTDNA J1 project none of those who are J-L823 like me is Arabic. Most are Europeans, both Jews and gentiles. My FTDNA exact matches for 12 markers do not appear to be in this group.

It's a puzzle. Does anyone have a clue?

Kelmendasi
06-30-2019, 08:53 PM
Hello,

J1 from the Marche, first known ancestor in the province of Ancona, near Fabriano, in 1730. After the transfer from GENO 2.0 to FTDNA, the haplogroup prediction at FTDNA was J-ZS1727 but now, after a Y37 test, the FTDNA J1project put me in the J-L823 subgroup (unclustered). In 1730 my ancestors were christians, no record of Jewish ancestry.

After the Y37 test, I have matches at FTDNA only for 12 markers. I am apparently in the Cohen modal haplotype. I have J1 and J2 exact matches, those who are J1 like me have Arabic names (probably Levantine and further south), only those who are J2 have Jewish surnames.

But in the FTDNA J1 project none of those who are J-L823 like me is Arabic. Most are Europeans, Jewish and gentiles.

It's a puzzle. If someone can help, I can show him or her my J1 project page.
J-L823 seems to be a Jewish cluster under Y6094, it also seems to be one of the Cohanim haplotypes. Looks like L823 is split into Sephardic and Ashkenazi clusters, the clusters in east Europe are of Ashkenazi origin whilst the ones in Iberia Sephardic.

Johane Derite
07-01-2019, 11:51 AM
J-L823 seems to be a Jewish cluster under Y6094, it also seems to be one of the Cohanim haplotypes. Looks like L823 is split into Sephardic and Ashkenazi clusters, the clusters in east Europe are of Ashkenazi origin whilst the ones in Iberia Sephardic.

Whats the TMRCA of this jewish cluster? At what point roughly did this clade of L283 enter jewish people?

patrizio22
07-01-2019, 02:19 PM
Whats the TMRCA of this jewish cluster? At what point roughly did this clade of L283 enter jewish people?

According to Genogenea J-L823 is 1570 years old.

In this page of Jewishdna.net there are the Jewish subclades of J1-YSC76, J-L823 included. There seem to be least 5 Jewish subclades of L823. But it is a bit difficult to understand because they are called L823a, L823b, L823c, L823d and L823e:

http://jewishdna.net/J1-YSC76.html

Even though i only have 37 markers, I do not seem to belong to any Jewish subclade of J1-YSC76.

These are my markers, if an expert wants to help....

12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 13 11 30 17 8-9-9 11 11 25 14 19 25 12-12-14-15-15-17 10 10 22-22 15 14 18 18 32-34-34 12 10

Kelmendasi
07-01-2019, 04:31 PM
Whats the TMRCA of this jewish cluster? At what point roughly did this clade of L283 enter jewish people?
As Patrizio stated above, the TMRCA for this cluster is roughly 1,600 years before present, so during the 5th century. L823 is a downstream of YSC76/Y2919 which likely has origin from the Levant or Mesopotamia so it's very likely that this group developed among the central Semitic speaking populations of the Levant. By the way, I am referring to J1-L823 not J2b-L283, sorry for the confusion if there was any.

Kelmendasi
07-01-2019, 04:38 PM
According to Genogenea J-L823 is 1570 years old.

In this page of Jewishdna.net there are the Jewish subclades of J1-YSC76, J-L823 included. There seem to be least 5 Jewish subclades of L823. But it is a bit difficult to understand because they are called L823a, L823b, L823c, L823d and L823e:

http://jewishdna.net/J1-YSC76.html

Even though i only have 37 markers, I do not seem to belong to any Jewish subclade of J1-YSC76.

These are my markers, if an expert wants to help....

12 23 14 10 13-17 11 16 12 13 11 30 17 8-9-9 11 11 25 14 19 25 12-12-14-15-15-17 10 10 22-22 15 14 18 18 32-34-34 12 10
Nevgen gives you a 81.66% chance of being J-ZS1711 which is ancestral to L823, it has a TMRCA of 4,200ybp. User Agammemnon links this group to the speakers of NW Semitic which seems plausible going by it's distribution. If you are ZS1711 and not ZS1711>L823 then it's likely that your group could've arrived in Italy with the Phoenicians.

Agamemnon
07-01-2019, 05:37 PM
J-L823 seems to be a Jewish cluster under Y6094, it also seems to be one of the Cohanim haplotypes. Looks like L823 is split into Sephardic and Ashkenazi clusters, the clusters in east Europe are of Ashkenazi origin whilst the ones in Iberia Sephardic.

L823 is a subclade of FGC15940, which is a major branch of YSC76. While it is subsumed under the "Cohen Modal Haplotype" (in terms of Y-STR markers), it isn't the branch more narrowly associated with Kohanic ancestry (Z18271, which could be described as the "Cohen Modal SNP"). That being said, L823 looks like a typically Jewish branch at this stage, both in terms of distribution and TMRCA estimates (which fit with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, a pattern common to many other Jewish branches), considering the presence immediately upstream of Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian samples L823 is extremely likely to have originated in the Levant some ~3500 to ~4000 yBP and in turn it could easily be of Judean origin. Strangely enough, FTDNA's Haplotree (along with Victar's older tree) lists it as a branch of ZS1706:

https://i.imgur.com/JtdBkGe.png

I'd say there's still some room for improvement on YFull's J1 tree.

Johane Derite
07-01-2019, 05:59 PM
As Patrizio stated above, the TMRCA for this cluster is roughly 1,600 years before present, so during the 5th century. L823 is a downstream of YSC76/Y2919 which likely has origin from the Levant or Mesopotamia so it's very likely that this group developed among the central Semitic speaking populations of the Levant. By the way, I am referring to J1-L823 not J2b-L283, sorry for the confusion if there was any.

Ah right, no i misread it. Sorry for the mistake.

Tltos
07-03-2019, 03:13 AM
L823 is a subclade of FGC15940, which is a major branch of YSC76. While it is subsumed under the "Cohen Modal Haplotype" (in terms of Y-STR markers), it isn't the branch more narrowly associated with Kohanic ancestry (Z18271, which could be described as the "Cohen Modal SNP"). That being said, L823 looks like a typically Jewish branch at this stage, both in terms of distribution and TMRCA estimates (which fit with the Ashkenazi bottleneck, a pattern common to many other Jewish branches), considering the presence immediately upstream of Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian samples L823 is extremely likely to have originated in the Levant some ~3500 to ~4000 yBP and in turn it could easily be of Judean origin. Strangely enough, FTDNA's Haplotree (along with Victar's older tree) lists it as a branch of ZS1706:

https://i.imgur.com/JtdBkGe.png

I'd say there's still some room for improvement on YFull's J1 tree.

My cousin as you might remember is J-ZS1711. He is negative for ZS1706. He has taken the SNP Pack test, but they are now showing J-ZS5563 available for him to test. Is that a mistake on FTDNA's part to offer that to him? He is negative for J-ZS5891 and J-ZS1766 too.

patrizio22
07-05-2019, 11:04 AM
After joining the FTDNA J1 project where they put me in a "L823 Unclustered" box, I have also joined the FTDNA J-YSC76 project and they put me in this group "Ungrouped (should order YSC0000076 or Big Y or J1 SNP Pack)", even though I had Y SNP results from Geno and a transfer.

A few deductions:

- The geno transfer is dodgy, even though I had Y SNP testing from GENO and a transfer they couldn't even put me in the J-YSC76 group. Or perhaps the administrator had had a bad day.
- Y STR testing seems pretty pointless to me if you are the odd Italian P58+. The only thing I found out is that they couldn't put me in any of the Jewish clusters of J-YSC76.
- I should probably order the J1 SNP pack.

sebaa
07-16-2019, 11:29 AM
Aga great job on this thread, I have additional information for Z18292>ZS2589, as one of the three you mentioned (I am trying to be as private as possible, will not say which of three) is a dear friend of mine, he came from a Crypto-Jewish family and has returned to the Jewish faith, he has another match, which also has Crypto-Jewish ancestry from Palermo (there's a 4th you can add to the list), based on both our research the Z18292>ZS2589 in Italy is Jewish, more specifically Sicilian Jewish.

Hi Principe,
Very interesting post...
If z18292>zs2589 is sicilian jewish would that mean that zs2566 which comes after makes it jewish as well? I m new on all this stuff and are trying to understand because my father being positive for zs2582 it is comprised under the zs2566 tree. It is his final terminal according to yseq.net. He got positive for z11889, z18294, z18297 and finally zs2582. Anything After zs2582 is negative (ZS3736,ZS3987,ZS4611, ZS9134). On jewishdna.net some branches from zs2566 might be jewish too.
https://jewishdna.net/AB-135.html

I suppose if it's not jewish it should be of levantine origin.

I should add that there is no known jewish backgrounds on his side.
Thanks in advance

R.Rocca
11-26-2019, 02:23 AM
This thread is meant to foment discussion on Italian J1 and to detail the current state of knowledge on J1 in the Italian peninsula, so if you have more information on Italian J1, this is the place to talk about it!

Personally, I've recently decided to take a closer look at J1 in Italy, the following is not meant to be an exhaustive description of J1 in Italy but rather, a concise set of observations on J1 in the Italian peninsula. First off, J1 is most common in Southern and South-Central Italy, its frequency collapses somewhat brutally north of Molise, in turn it is more common in the southwestern parts of Italy (Campania, Calabria and Sicily). In Sicily, there are two J1 "hotspots", so to speak, one around the Palermo and Trapani provinces and another one in the east of the island.

Most of the J1 in Italy (especially in Sicily) is under YSC76, there's a certain amount of diversity even at this level though, at least two branches can be labeled Phoenician at this stage:


ZS6057, Palermo (matches in Lebanon and Aleppo).


FGC8216 (including FGC8195), Palermo (matches a Lebanese "Sahely", this name literally means "from the coast" in Arabic), also found in individuals from Catania and Potenza.

Then we have at least one Jewish branch under YSC76 (M9119) found in an individual from Palermo as well as a Sicilian individual belonging to a branch under YSC76 which is probably Arabian in origin (FGC8224>FGC8223>BY66>BY86>ZS1585).

A couple of samples belong to FGC1723 (including FGC4422), which is a typically Arabian marker (not under YSC76), this seems restricted to Enna and Messina however.

The other branches of J1 have a more widespread distribution throughout Italy, at least three other markers are likely to be Phoenician or Levantine in origin, this includes:


L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon).


Z18292>ZS2589(>ZS2566) which is found in Calabria, Campania (Salerno again) and Frosinone, these samples have matches from the Balearic islands, Seville, Tunisia, Israel and Lebanon.


FGC4745 which is found in Campania (Salerno and Avellino), several Palestinian Christians belong to a branch of FGC4745.

There are also a few typically Jewish lineages, such as ZS10589 (under PF7263) and ZS227 (most of it is under Z18271) found a little bit all over the place, namely in Calabria, in Campania and in Palermo, some of this seems to be fairly recent in origin however I could be wrong on this (this could also count for M9119, the Jewish branch under YSC76 mentioned above).

While I am mainly talking about clusters which can tentatively assigned to a specific origin, this largely underestimates the diversity of J1 in Italy, in fact there are several Italian individuals assigned to basal branches of YSC234 (ZS241* and L858*).

Some cases are more puzzling, especially in Sicily where we find Z2223 (around Corleone) and Z1828* (around Palermo). There also is a decent amount of lineages that seem to be Armenian, Syrian or Mesopotamian in origin, including Z1842>ZS3089 (found in Palermo) and CTS1460 (found in Messina and Syracuse) though the former (ZS3089) is unlikely to be Armenian IMO.

Any new insights based on the new Roman paper?

Vesko
12-25-2019, 09:29 AM
Hi my friends,
I am new in the forum but this theme attracted my attention.
I made Big Y at FTDNA and my group is J-FGC8216.

I am from Bulgaria, my paternal lineage for the last 6 generations has been living in the North-West part of Bulgaria (between Vratza and Sofia).
J1 is found in around 3% of Bulgarians. I am curious to get more information for my origin.
I need your help to find out when this group migrated on the Balkans?
If you need more details from my test I will send them to you.

Thanks in advance :)

J1 DYS388=13
12-25-2019, 07:27 PM
That's a difficult question, since there are so few known cases of J-FGC8216. A small collection is at
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8216/
There you see it doesn't correspond to any ethnicity. Its age is estimated at 3,800 years. That's a lot of time to spread out. My guess would be your line is from a non-Arab Ottoman who was not truly Turkish, but rather from the Middle East.

levantino II
12-25-2019, 10:55 PM
It's possible that your ancestor came with Ottomans, but I don't believe. In my opinion, most of Balkan J1 lines come during Romans and Byzantines. There is some documents about planned settlement different Muslim groups especially from eastern borders of Ottoman empire, but we didn't found any traces of that, in genofond of any Balkan nation, except in some Balkan Muslims

There is no much scientific papers about colonisation of population from Asian Roman provincies on Balkan. Something wrote Alexander Panayotov about Jews in Balkan provincies

https://www.academia.edu/9135114/Jews_and_Jewish_communities_in_the_Balkans_and_the _Aegean_until_the_twelfth_century

There is also Tibor Grull with work about Jews in Danubian (I talk about Jews but I am thinking about Semites in complete)

https://www.academia.edu/31131371/Jewish_presence_in_the_Danubian_provinces_of_the_R oman_Empire

About colonisation during Byzantine time, ultimate work for me is:"The transfer of populations as a policy in the Byzantine Empire" by Peter Charanis. You should register to reed it for free, but for me it was mind opening work. We have some confirmed PF7257 haplotypes connected with Armenians, and there is also few ungrouped haplotypes. I also noticed few J1 haplotypes on the Bulgarian side of Balkan mountain, so I believed it was some kind of refugie for Roman population during great migration, or some Byzantine military district along Via militaris

https://www.jstor.org/stable/177624?seq=1

35618

You should send your BAM file to YFull for better analysis, and, if you want, you can send me STR values to chech if there is something close in Serbian DNA project and YHRD database

By:wave:

konian lusitanum
12-26-2019, 04:46 AM
i'm j -fgc8223, i'm not from middle east that clad mutated in iraque , SUMERIANS

konian lusitanum
12-26-2019, 04:52 AM
you are lucky in the same y37 test the guys not even could find my haplogroup , whatta disgrace FTDna is , , as you said its a puzzle indeed

konian lusitanum
12-26-2019, 04:56 AM
i did from yseq and so far i'm happy the way they work to find out my haplogroup , much better than ftdna

Vesko
12-26-2019, 07:16 AM
Hi levantino,

Thanks for your opinion and links, I will check them.
Both of your suggestions seems possible J-FGC8216 to be transferred to Balkans, but I agree with you that its less possible my line to come with Ottomans. The colonization during the Eastern Roman Empire seems more realistic as we have sources confirming this.
As I read the distribution of J-FGC8216 in the Mediterranean is mostly connected with Phoenicians, is it possible my line to be transferred to Balkans with them?
I will send you my STR values .

Thanks for your efforts and help :)

Vesko

35625

levantino II
12-26-2019, 08:19 AM
Hi levantino,

Thanks for your opinion and links, I will check them.
Both of your suggestions seems possible J-FGC8216 to be transferred to Balkans, but I agree with you that its less possible my line to come with Ottomans. The colonization during the Eastern Roman Empire seems more realistic as we have sources confirming this.
As I read the distribution of J-FGC8216 in the Mediterranean is mostly connected with Phoenicians, is it possible my line to be transferred to Balkans with them?
I will send you my STR values .

Thanks for your efforts and help :)

Vesko

35625

Yes, but in some broader sense. I believed that maritime people stay mainly near sea, especially it was much more benefit from the life near border. On the other hand, some other populations from North Levant were much more mobile, and it is possible that they share same genes with coastal population. My personal favorites were Itureans, population from Mount Lebanon who served in Roman army as auxiliary archers. For one moment I believed that my line, J1 PF7263 could descend from them. Few more works about Easterners

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iturea

https://www.academia.edu/4623198/Ex_Oriente_ad_Danubium._The_Syrian_auxiliary_units _on_the_Danube_frontier_of_the_Roman_Empire

There is one good thing about our lines. We steam from territory where literature first appeared, so it is more expectable to have ancestors mention in some inscription with all good and bad stories about them, then with some other haplogroups who just have archaeological finds descripted as some cultures

I will check your data during the day.

By

levantino II
12-26-2019, 11:52 AM
Hello again

I talk with the people from Serbian DNA project, and we don't have haplotypes close to yours. I also checked some scientific papers including "Y-chromosome diversity in modern Bulgarians but there is close haplotypes in that work. In YHRD also. So, you look pretty isolated with no close matches in temporary databases. I wish I had better news.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

Vesko
12-27-2019, 10:27 AM
Hi levantino,

I have never heard about Itureans and is interesting to read for them. Thanks for the Roman sources, I am interested in ancient history, especially Romans. The history of Eastern Roman Empire from its establishment by Konstantin (who was born in Nish, today in Serbia) till it was destroyed by the Ottomans, for 12 centuries was very close connected with Bulgarian history as we shared common land and population.

Thanks for your efforts with the guys from Serbia. it seems that for the moment I am isolated case on the Balkans, but take into account that the tested people in the Balkan countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Turkey, Romania) are pretty low, especially ones who did Big Y. More people have to be tested in order to have more clear picture in the region.
On the other hand the results from DNA test made last years in Bulgaria put Bulgarians very close to Italians as a whole, especially the population in mid and North Italy.

As I have basic knowledge in genetics, want to ask if its possible, using the mutations from my Big Y to be traced the migration path of my line from Levant to Balkans?

Vesko :)

Kelmendasi
12-27-2019, 01:04 PM
i'm j -fgc8223, i'm not from middle east that clad mutated in iraque , SUMERIANS
J-FGC8223 can't be linked with the Sumerians, as it is a subclade YSC234. YSC234 clades are best associated with Semitic speakers, and it is certain that J-YSC234 was present in Proto-Semitic speakers. Sumerians probably had some J1, but I highly doubt it was P58+ for the most part. Maybe they had some basal P58 clades.

Based on distribution, it seems like J-FGC8223 can be linked with the Northwestern Semitic speaking groups. Perhaps even with those who speak a Canaanite language such as the Phoenicians and Jews (Hebrew).

levantino II
12-27-2019, 02:41 PM
Hi levantino,

I have never heard about Itureans and is interesting to read for them. Thanks for the Roman sources, I am interested in ancient history, especially Romans. The history of Eastern Roman Empire from its establishment by Konstantin (who was born in Nish, today in Serbia) till it was destroyed by the Ottomans, for 12 centuries was very close connected with Bulgarian history as we shared common land and population.

Yes, history of Romans and Near East is interesting for all of us who steam from that area. Almost every mountain had it's tribe, or wider community with some identity what make print in some historical period. It's some kind of ancient Game of thrones;)


Thanks for your efforts with the guys from Serbia. it seems that for the moment I am isolated case on the Balkans, but take into account that the tested people in the Balkan countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, Turkey, Romania) are pretty low, especially ones who did Big Y. More people have to be tested in order to have more clear picture in the region.
On the other hand the results from DNA test made last years in Bulgaria put Bulgarians very close to Italians as a whole, especially the population in mid and North Italy.

I also think this is temporary. We have just one respectable work for Montenegro, one for Albania, one for Greece, two for Bulgaria, four for Serbia, several for Croatia (one with 1100 samples), three for Bosnia plus ordinary people who use private DNA services. Still, this is not much and we don't have proper interpretation of collected informations.


As I have basic knowledge in genetics, want to ask if its possible, using the mutations from my Big Y to be traced the migration path of my line from Levant to Balkans?

Vesko :)

Only in correlation with other samples. You should send your BAM file to YFull. It would coast you another 40$ (I think; I don't know temporary prices;)). They just have few samples so every new sample is welcome. As RCO said, there is no clear pattern for your line and it's branches so there is lot of free interpretation in temporary results

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8216/

I also made a little sheme. It looks like you have some cousins in Iraq (around Nasiryah if I see well), Lebanon (not much about them), little Italy (everybody love Italy, that's why we are on thread about Italian J1 Y-DNA) and even some Indian

35634

Also, I don't know if you are member of J1 Y-DNA project on FTDNA site and J1 Y-DNA group on FB. You should join that group even it's not so active in this moment, maybe you find someone willing to help. I just noticed that Roberto Raciti, one of the more active members on group also belong to FGC8216. It's goodthing for you, he made some charts on the group if I remember well and he can help you more than me about history and migrations of FGC8216

https://web.facebook.com/groups/JM267/

By

Vesko
12-28-2019, 09:00 AM
Hi levantino,

Yes, I am member of J1 Y-DNA project on FTDNA and also joined J1 group on FB.

These days I will send my files to YFull.

I also found that have some cousins in Iraq and Lebanon ;)

For sure will write Roberto to see what he can tell me. Italy is closer than Iraq ;)

Thanks again and will share with you if I find something new.

Vesko

Pegasusphm1
04-19-2020, 06:03 AM
Just received my Big-Y 700 results. J-FT4955 (Bari, Italy). New sibling SNP for L829

Pegasusphm1
04-22-2020, 12:46 AM
Just received my Big-Y 700 results. J-FT4955 (Bari, Italy). New sibling SNP for L829

J-FT196614

patrizio22
06-02-2020, 08:18 PM
Hello,

I posted a while ago on this thread. I'm an Italian Geno 2.0 transfer to FTDNA, plus FTDNAY67. The predicted haplogroup after the transfer was J-ZS1727 (not reliable after a geno transfer according to members here) and this snp is shown as "confirmed". After the Y67 the J1 project put me in the L823 Unclustered group but I don't know the criteria for this prediction. (I thought it was necessary the Y111 to predict L823 because of a marker typical of this subclade but perhaps I'm wrong). No history of Jewish ancestry at least from 1700, before that anything may have happened.

I wanted to purchase a J1 snp pack to find out my terminal snp and e-mailed all the J1 project admninistrators for a piece of advice, but I didn't get a single answer.

I couldn't get the hang of the different packs for me, so I ended up ordering on a whim the L823 test because they put me in that cluster, and also the Y111.

I'm getting the results end of June. In case I turned out not to be under L823, and in case the Y111 is not useful at all for an haplogroup prediction, what snp pack could I purchase? Thanks.

digital_noise
06-02-2020, 08:24 PM
Y-111 is useless for terminal subclades. If you want terminal, you need big y. I did y111 and they gave me E-M35. Even 23 and me did a more recent prediction at e-v13.

Lupriac
06-05-2020, 08:52 PM
J-FGC8223 can't be linked with the Sumerians, as it is a subclade YSC234. YSC234 clades are best associated with Semitic speakers, and it is certain that J-YSC234 was present in Proto-Semitic speakers. Sumerians probably had some J1, but I highly doubt it was P58+ for the most part. Maybe they had some basal P58 clades.

Based on distribution, it seems like J-FGC8223 can be linked with the Northwestern Semitic speaking groups. Perhaps even with those who speak a Canaanite language such as the Phoenicians and Jews (Hebrew).

Probably late to say this, but, I imagine J-CTS1460 is a very possible clade for Sumerians. It's found among Assyrians and Iraqis too.

Principe
06-05-2020, 09:21 PM
Probably late to say this, but, I imagine J-CTS1460 is a very possible clade for Sumerians. It's found among Assyrians and Iraqis too.

J-CTS1460 has been found in Kura Araxes Culture, I would imagine Hurrians and Kassites would be likelier but I can imagine some Z1842* could be Sumerian in origin or CTS1460 was brought into the area (Caucasus) via Uruk or Ubaid expansions.

Kelmendasi
06-05-2020, 09:49 PM
Probably late to say this, but, I imagine J-CTS1460 is a very possible clade for Sumerians. It's found among Assyrians and Iraqis too.
I see on FTDNA that there is an Assyrian from the UEA and another from Iraq that belong to CTS1460>YSC414. They share this cluster with a Pontic Greek from Gmşhane in the Black Sea region of Turkey. I don't know how close these two Assyrians are to the Pontic Greek, however I'd assume that they are pretty distant.

There is an Iraqi sample on Yfull who forms the cluster CTS1460>Y147362 with an Armenian, their TMRCA is ~2,900ybp. I see that there are also multiple other clusters found among the Armenians and the southern Caucasus (Transcaucasia), so it's possible that some of these clusters did expand with Armenian-speakers or with other earlier inhabitants of the region such as the Urartians and Hurrians.

There is also another sample from Iraq on FTDNA that belongs to CTS1460>BY193780 and shares this group with a sample from England. BY193780 shares Y97265 with BY37582 and its downstreams. BY37582>BY37583 is found in 2 samples from Armenia, whilst BY37582>BY37583>FT293485 is found in 2 samples from Iran.

I guess that if there are basal CTS1460 clusters among the Semitic-speaking populations of Mesopotamia that are distant to the clusters found among other populations from different areas, they could possibly be Sumerian, but an original expansion from the southern Caucasus or the surrounding area seems most likely.

Johnny ola
06-05-2020, 09:58 PM
I see on FTDNA that there is an Assyrian from the UEA and another from Iraq that belong to CTS1460>YSC414. They share this cluster with a Pontic Greek from Gmşhane in the Black Sea region of Turkey. I don't know how close these two Assyrians are to the Pontic Greek, however I'd assume that they are pretty distant.

There is an Iraqi sample on Yfull who forms the cluster CTS1460>Y147362 with an Armenian, their TMRCA is ~2,900ybp. I see that there are also multiple other clusters found among the Armenians and the southern Caucasus (Transcaucasia), so it's possible that some of these clusters did expand with Armenian-speakers or with other earlier inhabitants of the region such as the Urartians and Hurrians.

There is also another sample from Iraq on FTDNA that belongs to CTS1460>BY193780 and shares this group with a sample from England. BY193780 shares Y97265 with BY37582 and its downstreams. BY37582>BY37583 is found in 2 samples from Armenia, whilst BY37582>BY37583>FT293485 is found in 2 samples from Iran.

I guess that if there are basal CTS1460 clusters among the Semitic-speaking populations of Mesopotamia that are distant to the clusters found among other populations from different areas, they could possibly be Sumerian, but an original expansion from the southern Caucasus or the surrounding area seems most likely.

The Pontic Greek guy from Gumushane has a Jewish Kohem lineage?

Kelmendasi
06-05-2020, 10:09 PM
The Pontic Greek guy from Gumushane has a Jewish Kohem lineage?
No, this is another Pontic Greek from the town. His lineage is probably local in the area since Z1842 and Z1842>CTS1460 have been found in cultures such as the Kura-Araxes.

The Pontic Greeks from Gmşhane that are believed to have distant Jewish paternal ancestry (likely Byzantine or perhaps earlier) are J-Z18271 which ultimately is a downstream of P58 and has multiple clusters that can confidently be linked to Jewish peoples (e.g. Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews etc).

Johnny ola
06-05-2020, 10:18 PM
No, this is another Pontic Greek from the town. His lineage is probably local in the area since Z1842 and Z1842>CTS1460 have been found in cultures such as the Kura-Araxes.

The Pontic Greeks from Gmşhane that are believed to have distant Jewish paternal ancestry (likely Byzantine or perhaps earlier) are J-Z18271 which ultimately is a downstream of P58 and has multiple clusters that can confidently be linked to Jewish peoples (e.g. Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardi Jews etc).

Ok ty.I am not very familiar with J1 lineages.So,Kura-Araxes had J1 folks...hmm interesting.

konian lusitanum
06-06-2020, 12:02 AM
you are right , taking in account the time but , with who are associated that Semitic speakers of that time ? that is a good question because there is no records of other civilizations migrating to that area of the globe at the time and the Sumerians were the first civilization in size terms , lets also not forget that they certainly were not just a branch of people with a haplogroup j1 , speaking in my case my clad is down from j1- fgc-8216 and in the research that i been done in the country of my origins in some studies it points to Phoenician presence , Phoenicians did had made a big impact in the world but seems everybody trying to deny it , the same with the Sumerians

konian lusitanum
06-06-2020, 12:13 AM
i did compared your str's to mine it matches closely you are more close to Phoenician people than to anyone else no matter what someone calls them

Yaroslav
06-06-2020, 04:58 PM
Probably late to say this, but, I imagine J-CTS1460 is a very possible clade for Sumerians. It's found among Assyrians and Iraqis too.

As far as I remember from the J1 project all the Iraqi Assyrians made a common cluster with quite a young TMRCA of ~2500 years.


J-CTS1460 has been found in Kura Araxes Culture

Was there some J-CTS1460 sample from Kura Araxes? I remember Velikent man only who had 5 positive SNPs of Z1842 level: YSC0001287/CTS7598/PF4743, PF4740/M497, S13025/FGC3685, CTS3953/PF4711 and CTS7412/PF4742.

patrizio22
08-20-2020, 05:22 AM
Big Y 700 results from eastern central Italy. J-ZS176, new branch just under J-L858. Apparently "they could create this new branch because it was found that I share 5 SNPs with an anonymous sample donor from Spain who was already placed at J-L858: HG01686 from the 1000 Genomes Project.
https://www.internationalgenome.org/data-portal/sample/HG01686
This anonymous person is currently my closest paternal relative in their Big Y database"

Edit: If this is a new branch, has anyone got an idea as to how long to have a TMRCA for this SNP and where to find it? Will they send the data to Isogg? Some other?

39069

patrizio22
08-21-2020, 09:40 AM
FTDNA added my branch in the haplotree and snps section:

39081

Pegasusphm1
12-30-2020, 02:16 PM
At this point, my opinion. J1-PF4872 branch represents many / multiple migrations and reverse migrations throughout history from the Levant coastal ports to Italy. Back and forth along the sea trade routes, a continuous maritime connection. PF4872 appears to be Levant, not broader Arabia or Maghreb as well. With the advent of next-generation testing and emergence of new subclades, discussion should also address latest as well as earliest possible arrivals. Byzantine to Ottoman era trade and shipping companies leading up to the discovery of Americas when commerce shifted to the new world.