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Jean-Pierre
04-20-2017, 07:52 AM
1. R1b1 (L278) has been found in a skeleton of about 12000 BC in Villabruna, Italy (hunter-gatherers).
2. R1b1 (M415) has been found in a skeleton of about 5100 BC in Els Trocs, Spain (farmers).
3. R1b1 (L1345) has been found in a skeleton of about 2700 BC in Oblaczkowo, Poland (copper age).

Is it for me as R1b1-descendant living in Western Europe possible to know from which of the 3 groups I descend? If so, how do I proceed?

R.Rocca
04-20-2017, 01:21 PM
1. R1b1 (L278) has been found in a skeleton of about 12000 BC in Villabruna, Italy (hunter-gatherers).
2. R1b1 (M415) has been found in a skeleton of about 5100 BC in Els Trocs, Spain (farmers).
3. R1b1 (L1345) has been found in a skeleton of about 2700 BC in Oblaczkowo, Poland (copper age).

Is it for me as R1b1-descendant living in Western Europe possible to know from which of the 3 groups I descend? If so, how do I proceed?

More than likely, none of the above. Villabruna looks like a dead end, El Trocs is of a completely different branch of R1b (V88) than the European one you belong to and the Polish one is too young. For your reference, much more probable ancestors:

Sample: RISE564
Culture: Bell Beaker
Location: Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
Date: "Early" Bell Beaker based on materials
Haplogroup Assignment: P312+ U152+

Sample: RISE471
Culture: Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture
Location: Untermeitingen, Germany
Date: Dating of the Süddeutsche Hügelgräberbronzezeit (South German Barrow Bronze Age), is radiocarbon dated to ~1610-1450 BC for Untermeitingen
Haplogroup Assignment: P312+ U152+ L2+

Jean-Pierre
04-21-2017, 06:25 AM
Thank you for your respons, Richard. Since a few years, and with our current knowledge, I as a Belgian R-L2 person do also beleave that I descend from the Bell Beakers. But with those results of the pre-copper-age skeletons, I was wandering if we as L2 people could completely rule out descendance from European hunter-gatherers from the Paleoliticum or from European farmers from the Neoliticum.

Celt_??
04-21-2017, 07:08 AM
Please delete

Celt_??
04-21-2017, 07:11 AM
More than likely, none of the above. Villabruna looks like a dead end, El Trocs is of a completely different branch of R1b (V88) than the European one you belong to and the Polish one is too young. For your reference, much more probable ancestors:

Sample: RISE564
Culture: Bell Beaker
Location: Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
Date: "Early" Bell Beaker based on materials
Haplogroup Assignment: P312+ U152+

Sample: RISE471
Culture: Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture
Location: Untermeitingen, Germany
Date: Dating of the Süddeutsche Hügelgräberbronzezeit (South German Barrow Bronze Age), is radiocarbon dated to ~1610-1450 BC for Untermeitingen
Haplogroup Assignment: P312+ U152+ L2+

Thank you. Could be helpful for me too since I am R1b-U152+, L2+, L20+ .
A few months ago, someone posted a speculation that L20 was centered west of the Rhine River in northeastern France / Belgium, similar to where the Belgii lived during Roman times.

Any thoughts on that speculation, Richard?