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Rathna
06-22-2013, 08:03 AM
From Boattini et al. 2013 we have 5 haplotypes from Sardinia: 3 R-M269* and 2 R-L23*.
Olbia Tempio/Nuoro, tested 40: 2 R-M269* (5%)
1 R-L23* (2,5%)

Oristano, tested 42: 1 R-M269* (2,38%)
1 R-L23* (2,38%)
The R-L23* of Oristano is an outlier:

864 Oristano 12 23 16 10 12 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 13 15 12 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

These are the markers values in YHRD format:
16 13-29 23 10 13 12 12-14
No close match on YHRD. The closest are some Chinese but with DYS438=10, then some Asian haplogroup.
The other R-L23 from Sardinia (Olbia Tempio/Nuoro) is this:

806 OlbiaTempio/Nuoro 12 25 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 13 15 12 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

in YHRD format
14 13-29 25 10 13 12 12-14
My haplotype is this (Gioiello Tognoni: KV7Y2, Pisa, Italy):
15 13-29 24 10 13 12 11-14
We clearly see that these haplotypes are ancient R-L23 of the Tyrrhenian coast from which probably arose the subclades of R-L23. We may hypothesize that the ancestral values of my haplotype were:
15 13-29 24 10 13 12 12-14
The haplotype from Oristano is an outlier. Also the R-L51* was an outlier:
14 13-29 24 11 13 13 11-14
but with more luck.

Rathna
06-22-2013, 09:43 AM
And how is an outlier this R-L51* from Pistoia? And there the R-L51 could be the 7,69%: 1 out 13 people tested:
377 Pistoia 14 23 14 11 11 14 13 13 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 15 13 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

DYS393=14
DYS390=23
DYS426=13 (like all the others)
DYS388=13
DYS438=13

Probably many surprises could come from Tuscans!

dartraighe
06-22-2013, 09:49 AM
From Boattini et al. 2013 we have 5 haplotypes from Sardinia: 3 R-M269* and 2 R-L23*.
Olbia Tempio/Nuoro, tested 40: R-M269* (5%)
1 R-L23* (2,5%)

Oristano, tested 42: 1 R-M269* (2,38%)
1 R-L23* (2,38%)
The R-L23* of Oristano is an outlier:

864 Oristano 12 23 16 10 12 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 16 15 19 13 15 12 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

These are the markers values in YHRD format:
16 13-29 23 10 13 12 12-14
No close match on YHRD. The closest are some Chinese but with DYS438=10, then some Asian haplogroup.
The other R-L23 from Sardinia (Olbia Tempio/Nuoro) is this:

806 OlbiaTempio/Nuoro 12 25 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 19 13 15 12 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

in YHRD format
14 13-29 25 10 13 12 12-14
My haplotype is this (Gioiello Tognoni: KV7Y2, Pisa, Italy):
15 13-29 24 10 13 12 11-14
We clearly see that these haplotypes are ancient R-L23 of the Tyrrhenian coast from which probably arose the subclades of R-L23. We may hypothesize that the ancestral values of my haplotype were:
15 13-29 24 10 13 12 12-14
The haplotype from Oristano is an outlier. Also the R-L51* was an outlier:
14 13-29 24 11 13 13 11-14
but with more luck.

Sardinia seems to be an important part of R1b history.
R-M269*,R-L23* and R-L51* are people who havent found any SNPs downstream that are known at present.
It took me six years to find a downstream SNP of U106* and I am now Z156*.

Rathna
06-22-2013, 10:11 AM
Sardinia seems to be an important part of R1b history.
R-M269*,R-L23* and R-L51* are people who havent found any SNPs downstream that are known at present.
It took me six years to find a downstream SNP of U106* and I am now Z156*.

Actually this isn't true. We have now the SNPs of Geno 2.0, those signed PF (Paolo Francalacci who gave 10,000 Sardinian samples), and now we have:
downstream R-M269, the three SNPs found in the Jewish cluster, but also in a Greek and in an American of probably Greek descent, I have spoke about a lot on Worldfamilies:
PF7558, PF7562, PF7563
and probably they will be also amongst these three Sardinians tested by Boattini I spoke about above
Downstream R-L23 we have Z2103 to Z2110
Downstream R-L51 we have Z2111 to Z2120
Some of these SNPs have also a Sardinian signature with PF.

alan
06-22-2013, 10:28 AM
Thanks to the title of this thread I now have Johny Mathis 'when a star was born' going through my head in midsummer.

Rathna
06-22-2013, 11:59 AM
Thanks to the title of this thread I now have Johny Mathis 'when a star was born' going through my head in midsummer.

Of course I lack all you have: background, people, songs, the language itself, etc. But we are speaking of genetics, and you too, if look at it carefully, may see that this "Pistoiese" R-L51* has the highest variance found so far amongst the R-L51* all over the world! And this probably is worth something.

R.Rocca
06-22-2013, 12:17 PM
Of course I lack all you have: background, people, songs, the language itself, etc. But we are speaking of genetics, and you too, if look at it carefully, may see that this "Pistoiese" R-L51* has the highest variance found so far amongst the R-L51* all over the world! And this probably is worth something.

Has somebody run variance on these?

Rathna
06-22-2013, 12:24 PM
Has somebody run variance on these?

Richard, if you look at the markers values I posted above, you can see that also with so few markers, if we compare the variance of the 22 slowest markers of Klyosov, we would already be at 12,000 years BP for the variance in DYS426, DYS388 and DYS438. Of course I would be curious to see the 67 markers of this "Pistoiese".

TigerMW
06-22-2013, 07:32 PM
Richard, if you look at the markers values I posted above, you can see that also with so few markers, if we compare the variance of the 22 slowest markers of Klyosov, we would already be at 12,000 years BP for the variance in DYS426, DYS388 and DYS438. Of course I would be curious to see the 67 markers of this "Pistoiese".
Three STRs is a bit skimpy, particularly if we are talking about a handful of haplotypes, but I think it would be noteworthy if we've found a 426=12 L51xL11 guy. Is Pistoiese 426=12?

Rathna
06-22-2013, 08:13 PM
Is Pistoiese 426=12? We haven't a SNP test, and I think that this haplotype is a R-L51 just for its DYS426=13. Anyway the other mutations are noteworthy; DYS388=13 from 12 and DYS438=13 from 12, and these are two of the slowest markers, comprised amongst the 22 of Klyosov. I understand your skepticism, but I think that with the other hundreds of thousands R-L51 that should be in Tuscany (4% also for 1KGP, 7,69% in Pistoia Province) it will be very hard for you.

TigerMW
06-24-2013, 09:22 PM
We haven't a SNP test, and I think that this haplotype is a R-L51 just for its DYS426=13. Anyway the other mutations are noteworthy; DYS388=13 from 12 and DYS438=13 from 12, and these are two of the slowest markers, comprised amongst the 22 of Klyosov. I understand your skepticism, but I think that with the other hundreds of thousands R-L51 that should be in Tuscany (4% also for 1KGP, 7,69% in Pistoia Province) it will be very hard for you.

Very hard for me what? I guess I am skeptical to conclude much on so little information. If you are saying it will be hard for me to accept an R1b expansion out of Italy, there is no need for you to lament. I think it is definitely an alternative worth considering, a real possibility.

There may be hundreds of thousand of L51's including P312, U106, etc., etc. but I thought we were talking about L51xL11(probably Z2113) but we don't even know if we have that (SNP testing confirmed anyway.) We haven't found but a few L51xL11 folks.

In this case, we just know we have 426=13 guy so we have suspicions and a handful of markers and a lot of projections. The more important finding, in my opinion, would be a cache of SNP tested L51+ Z2113- 426=12 guys. They might be more closely related to the L11 folks who are 426=12 and Z2113-.

Percival
09-19-2013, 02:04 AM
And how is an outlier this R-L51* from Pistoia? And there the R-L51 could be the 7,69%: 1 out 13 people tested:
377 Pistoia 14 23 14 11 11 14 13 13 12 13 13 29 16 15 19 12 15 13 23 R1b1b2-M269 (xP311)

DYS393=14
DYS390=23
DYS426=13 (like all the others)
DYS388=13
DYS438=13

Probably many surprises could come from Tuscans!

This is the first time in all my database searches that I have found a match for my numbers at both DYS393 and DYS426 simultaneously, never found in ysearch or smforg etc. The test was done a few years ago. My numbers are as follows, and seem to be total outliers. I could never find a total match. Does anyone have any ideas about regional origins? or give any insight? Has anyone come across a match?

R1b, M343, subclade r1b1b2, m269 (national geographic has changed some of these designations when I checked recently)

M42 M168 M89 P128 M45 M207 P231 M343 L278

DYS383=14
DYS19=14
DYS391=11
DYS439=13
DYS389I=13
DYS389II=17
DYS388=12
DYS390=23
DYS426=13
DYS385a=11
DYS385b=14
DYS392=13

TigerMW
09-19-2013, 02:16 PM
This is the first time in all my database searches that I have found a match for my numbers at both DYS393 and DYS426 simultaneously, never found in ysearch or smforg etc. The test was done a few years ago. My numbers are as follows, and seem to be total outliers. I could never find a total match. Does anyone have any ideas about regional origins? or give any insight? Has anyone come across a match?

R1b, M343, subclade r1b1b2, m269 (national geographic has changed some of these designations when I checked recently)

M42 M168 M89 P128 M45 M207 P231 M343 L278

DYS383=14
DYS19=14
DYS391=11
DYS439=13
DYS389I=13
DYS389II=17
DYS388=12
DYS390=23
DYS426=13
DYS385a=11
DYS385b=14
DYS392=13

Welcome. Are you in one of the projects and can you share your kit#? It's helpful to have 67 STRs or more and to have a National Geno 2 test done. Are those under consideration?

Percival
09-20-2013, 02:38 PM
Welcome. Are you in one of the projects and can you share your kit#? It's helpful to have 67 STRs or more and to have a National Geno 2 test done. Are those under consideration?

Thank you Mike. Fascinating forum. I will research your suggestion, and get on it. I wonder meanwhile, if anyone has any insight, on those numbers at all. Are they outliers? on the older side of R1B? generally more related to Northern, central or eastern european R1b? Any insight (even generalized) is welcome.