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rms2
04-24-2017, 02:26 PM
There is a rumor out that an R1b-U106 has been discovered in an Iron Age Wielbark culture burial in Drozdowo, Poland.

Wielbark U106 Rumor (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=228608&viewfull=1#post228608)

I don't know if this is true, but you might want to discuss the possibility.

Some scholars connect Wielbark to the Goths, and the Gothic historian Jordanes claimed the Goths came originally from Sweden.

Gravetto-Danubian
04-24-2017, 02:34 PM
There is a rumor out that an R1b-U106 has been discovered in an Iron Age Wielbark culture burial in Drozdowo, Poland.

Wielbark U106 Rumor (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=228608&viewfull=1#post228608)

I don't know if this is true, but you might want to discuss the possibility.

Some scholars connect Wielbark to the Goths, and the Gothic historian Jordanes claimed the Goths came originally from Sweden.

I1 and U106 are definitely looking like Germanic markers. It's details of their pre-Iron Age history which still need clarifying, but I think U106 reached Scandinavia in the late 3rd Millenium with northern Beaker groups. Battle Axe is looking to be R1a-Z645 by and large, and its autosomal link is also with the East Baltic rather than central Europe.

rms2
04-24-2017, 05:06 PM
I'm not so keen on U106 in Bell Beaker, but that's a possibility. I still think U106 may surface in Corded Ware.

Anyway, it is interesting that we have a U106 in the Bronze Age Nordic Battle Axe cemetery at Lilla Beddinge in Sweden and now probably a U106 in an Iron Age Wielbark burial in Poland. If Wielbark really is connected to the Goths, and if the Goths did come from Sweden, that is certainly interesting for U106.

Jean M
04-24-2017, 05:30 PM
I1 and U106 are definitely looking like Germanic markers. It's details of their pre-Iron Age history which still need clarifying, but I think U106 reached Scandinavia in the late 3rd Millenium with northern Beaker groups. Battle Axe is looking to be R1a-Z645 by and large, and its autosomal link is also with the East Baltic rather than central Europe.

A couple of days ago I wrote a Y-DNA section at the end of chapter 4 of the draft new book on the Anglo-Saxons. It might stay there, or might get moved, but anyway here it is.

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Despite the relatively small number of ancient DNA samples from Scandinavia so far, by the end of the Nordic Bronze Age, we can see in its people examples of the three Y-DNA haplogroups that predominate in Scandinavian men today. As has been mentioned (p. 67), R1a1a1b (Z645/S224) appears in two men buried around 2500 BC in Scandinavia. [Allentoft et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015] It is the ancestor of the R1a1a1b1a3 (Z284/S221) that we find today in men of Scandinavian descent. Its subclade R1a1a1b1a3a (L448/S200) is the dominant type in Norway and also in Scotland, where it appears linked to Viking settlers. This is not the only form of R1a in present-day Scandinavia. The much rarer R1a1a1a (CTS7083/L664/S298) is found in all countries around the North Sea. Three males buried in a Corded Ware grave at Eulau (Saxony-Anhalt, Germany) carried an R1a haplotype that appears to be immediately ancestral to the rare R1a1a1a. [Haak 2008] Corded Ware was later replaced in this region by Bell Beaker, but the lineage could have survived in a limited way further north.

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R1b-U106 was found in a man buried about 2275-2032 BC at Lilla Beddinge in Sweden, as already mentioned (see p. 68). The brother of R1b-U106 is the huge R1b-P312 haplogroup, which is equally well represented in modern Scandinavia, but as it dominates western Europe overall, we need to focus on particular subclades which may be specific to Scandinavia, for example R1b1a1a2a1a2d (L238/S182), which is found throughout the region, or R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b2 (L165/S68), which is found in Scandinavia and the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland, which suggests that this is a Norse marker which arrived in the Isles with Vikings.[Moffat and Wilson 2011]

With Y-DNA I1 (M253), we come to the most distinctive marker of Germanic speakers. This is a haplogroup with a long history. It formed among European hunter-gatherers, but was absorbed in a minor way by farmers entering Europe. We find it in an early farmer in Hungary about 5000 BC. [Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2015] Yet all modern I1 men so far tested descend from a common ancestor who lived about 2600 BC. [YFull calculation] Where he lived we cannot be certain, but his haplogroup was present in the Nordic Bronze Age. One man carrying Y-DNA I1 was buried at Angmollan in Sweden about 1300 BC.[Allentoft 2015 and personal communication from author] The haplogroup is found today wherever Germanic speakers spread.


I1 distribution map will go in here, when I find one that is up to date.

[Edited: realised that I have missed out the sample of R1a1a1b at Ölsund [Mittnik2017] and the fact that the R1a1a1b at Kyndeløse actually is R1a1a1b1a3 (Z284/S221). Correcting draft.]

Radboud
04-24-2017, 05:46 PM
I'm not so keen on U106 in Bell Beaker, but that's a possibility. I still think U106 may surface in Corded Ware.


The third possibility would be the Globular Amphora culture. A fourth possibility would be an unknown steppe-derived group/culture but that scenario is not likely.

Wing Genealogist
04-24-2017, 05:54 PM
Given what I mentioned earlier about a likely split in U106 (between Z381+ and Z381-) I would be very interested to see if the U106 individuals found can be further classified as Z381+/-.

The U106 Project notes mostly Z381+ folks in the area of Eastern Europe (notably the "Ivanhoe" cluster of L47>Z159>S3251>FGC8563>FGC8576>FGC8590>FGC8579>BY3316, and the "Null 425" group of Z9>Z331>Z330>Z326). However, the Ivanhoe cluster clearly appears to be "relatively" recent (estimated formation date 547 AD with a 95% CI of between 5 BC — 1015 AD) and the Null 425 group may have likewise emigrated to the area sometime after the Slavs entered Eastern Europe.

While I may well be wrong, it is possible the Z381- portion of U106 was originally living in this area, and the later Slavic expansion may have caused (or at least contributed to) the bottleneck we are seeing in this portion of U106.

rms2
04-24-2017, 10:42 PM
I realize this is an old source, but sometimes the older sources are actually pretty good, for one thing because they weren't afraid to admit that migration actually occurred. Anyway, Francis Owen, a Germanic language expert and professor at the University of Alberta, ascribed the origin of the original Germanic peoples to the melding of Corded Ware and what he called the Northern Megalithic Culture. The following is from his book, The Germanic People: Their Origin, Expansion and Culture, page 55:



There is no evidence of any subsequent invasion of Northern Europe after that of the Corded Ware people. It follows, then, that the Germanic culture, people and language were the results of these two factors: the Northern Megalithic and the Corded Ware-Single Grave cultures.

Jean M
04-24-2017, 11:39 PM
Francis Owen, a Germanic language expert and professor at the University of Alberta, ascribed the origin of the original Germanic peoples to the melding of Corded Ware and what he called the Northern Megalithic Culture.

Megaliths were built by Neolithic farmers (almost always), so today we don't see 'megalithic culture' so much in the literature. Alan has mentioned that a few times. But not to worry unduly. Essentially I'm saying something similar, except with Bell Beaker in Demark added and some other bits and pieces. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10134-Origins-of-Germanic

Kopfjäger
04-25-2017, 12:11 AM
Megaliths were built by Neolithic farmers (almost always), so today we don't see 'megalithic culture' so much in the literature. Alan has mentioned that a few times. But not to worry unduly. Essentially I'm saying something similar, except with Bell Beaker in Demark added and some other bits and pieces. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10134-Origins-of-Germanic

I think a lot of that P312 ended up in Denmark/Scandinavia via the Bell Beaker commodities (flint in Northern Jutland) trade, and the combination of R1b/R1a/I1 created the Germanic languages.

George
04-25-2017, 12:26 AM
There is a rumor out that an R1b-U106 has been discovered in an Iron Age Wielbark culture burial in Drozdowo, Poland.

Wielbark U106 Rumor (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=228608&viewfull=1#post228608)

I don't know if this is true, but you might want to discuss the possibility.

Some scholars connect Wielbark to the Goths, and the Gothic historian Jordanes claimed the Goths came originally from Sweden.

One should also keep in mind two other possibilities: (1) Sometimes ancient historians (and not just them) identified a given people with its aristocracy. The Jordanes story might go back to a tale relating the arrival of the royal clans, not necessarily of an entire population. There are BTW very good examples of this "historiographic" technique in the Kyivan Tale of Bygone Years. (2) A Swedish (Gotland) friend of mine told me that there was a great deal of "back and forth" movement between Eastern Scandinavia and the Polish Baltic shores in the first millennium BCE. Which he said, explained the ubiquity of the "Got" geography. == Anyway we'll see if there is more clarity when further Wielbark and Chernyahiv DNA surfaces...

Gravetto-Danubian
04-25-2017, 12:27 AM
A couple of days ago I wrote a Y-DNA section at the end of chapter 4 of the draft new book on the Anglo-Saxons. It might stay there, or might get moved, but anyway here it is.

15411



I1 distribution map will go in here, when I find one that is up to date.

[Edited: realised that I have missed out the sample of R1a1a1b at Ölsund [Mittnik2017] and the fact that the R1a1a1b at Kyndeløse actually is R1a1a1b1a3 (Z284/S221). Correcting draft.]

Where's that lovely U106 heat-map from ?

rms2
04-25-2017, 12:43 AM
I think a lot of that P312 ended up in Denmark/Scandinavia via the Bell Beaker commodities (flint in Northern Jutland) trade, and the combination of R1b/R1a/I1 created the Germanic languages.

I think some of the P312 in Scandinavia is the product of later movements. We will need ancient y-dna results to tell what came with Bell Beaker and what did not. I think L238 is firmly Scandinavian; otherwise, everything is up for grabs.

rms2
04-25-2017, 12:56 AM
Please delete.

Kopfjäger
04-25-2017, 02:43 AM
everything is up for grabs.

Fair enough, Rich! :beerchug:

Jean M
04-25-2017, 08:58 AM
Where's that lovely U106 heat-map from ?

It is illustration no. 98 in Ancestral Journeys, drawn by Drazen Tomic (the cartographer used on AJ and Blood of the Celts) from a map created by our very own Rich Rocca.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 09:19 AM
I think a lot of that P312 ended up in Denmark/Scandinavia via the Bell Beaker commodities (flint in Northern Jutland) trade, and the combination of R1b/R1a/I1 created the Germanic languages.

Yes exactly. That was my guess before we had ancient DNA, but it is now looking a lot more solid from just a handful of aDNA results. Obviously I have only got as far as the Nordic Bronze Age in chapter 4. In the Jastorf culture there could have been more P312 absorbed from La Tene. Then as the Germani spread further afield in the Post-Roman period, the different strands could have absorbed a few new Y-DNA haplogroups from the peoples with whom they came in contact as they moved, which would be different between east and west Europe. So by the time the Goths (for example) took Dacia, they might not have the exact same percentage of (for example) R1a as their ancestors in Sweden.

(As for autosomal DNA, that would vary from place to place and tribe to tribe too, as the men took local wives.)

In short, the Germani were a very mixed people to start off with and just went on getting more mixed as they spread. So I would just treat the Y-DNA haplogroups most specific to Bronze Age Scandinavia as clues to their movements, rather than trying to fix on some magic formula.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 09:31 AM
One should also keep in mind two other possibilities: ...The Jordanes story might go back to a tale relating the arrival of the royal clans, not necessarily of an entire population.

I did not rely on Jordanes in my coverage of the Goths in AJ, I assure you. He actually seemed quite uncertain about their origins, as well he might be after so much time had elapsed. Here (yet again) is what I say about them.


The first language to split away was East Germanic. The Goths, Gepids, Vandals and Burgundians all seem to have spoken forms of East Germanic, though the only written record is of Gothic. No language survives from this group. .... With the Goths and Vandals the Germani enter history. The trail they blazed across Europe scorched the edges of civilization, which duly took note. The very earliest records we have of these peoples are mere jottings in comparison with the pages written on their wars with Rome. In the days of Roman security, Pliny the Elder described the Vandili as a grouping of Germanic people, which included the Burgodiones, Varinnae, Charini and Gutones. We can recognise two of these peoples, the Burgundians and Goths, among those Germanic tribes who later took over parts of the former Western Roman Empire. We should not expect much, if any, genetic distinction between these peoples. They were of the same stock, Scandinavian in origin. None was clannish to the point of exclusivity. A successful Germanic warlord could attract fighters from neighbouring groups, or even former enemies, to swell his warband. Any substantial army was polyethnic.

Once the Goths took possession of chunks of civilization, they could have both their past and present recorded for posterity in flattering terms. Cassiodorus, a Roman in the service of Theodoric the Great, king of the Ostrogoths (reigned 471-526), wrote a 12-volume history of this people. It does not survive, but we have a summary of it written by Jordanes, a 6th-century Roman bureaucrat of Gothic extraction. Jordanes knew little of the early history of his people. There is a tone of uncertainty about his statement that the Goths are said to have come forth long ago from the island of Scandza (Scandinavia) to mainland Europe (specifically an island in the river Vistula, in the case of the Gepids, who were of Gothic origin) and from there to the coast of the Black Sea.

Yet there is no reason to doubt that there was a movement of Goths from Sweden to the mouth of the Vistula. By the time Classical sources first note this people, they appear in both places, though under variant names. Ptolemy places the Gutae (Gautae) in southern Scandia c. 150 AD. Southern Sweden historically formed Gautland (Götland), the land of the Gautar in Old Norse, whose name is retained in the present region of Götaland, Sweden. Ptolemy also mentions the Gythones living on the east bank of the Vistula, while Tacitus renders the name as Gotones. The suffix -one may mean young or small, indicating a offspring group of the Scandinavian parent. It was dropped as the Goths emerged as an independent force further south.

Pliny the Elder quotes Pytheas (who wrote c.320 BC):

Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the ocean ... at one day's sail from this territory is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring ... the inhabitants ... sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

Amber explains the particular attraction of this region to the Goths. Initially the chief source of amber was eastern Jutland. But by the first century AD, amber from the southern and eastern Baltic was feeding the demand from Rome. Around the mouth of the Vistula in modern Pomerelia (Poland), the Nordic-influenced Wielbark culture (c. 30 to 400 AD) was once thought to reflect the arrival of the Goths. Yet Pytheas tells us that the Gutones were living there centuries earlier. Archaeologists have pointed to the continuity of the Wielbark culture from earlier cultures in the same area. The influence from eastern Sweden dates back into the Late Bronze Age. That is just the time when we would expect a southern exodus from Sweden as the climate deteriorated.

The amber trade may have introduced Goths to faraway places. The main amber routes ran up the Vistula and Oder Rivers to the Danube. Another amber route travelled overland from the Baltic as far as the head of the Dnieper, then down river to the Black Sea. The pull of the south drew the Goths up the Vistula during the 2nd and 3rd centuries AD, or so it seems from the spread of Wielbark culture elements. Then the predominantly Germanic Chernyakhov (or Cernjachov) culture emerged north of the Black Sea in the later 3rd and 4th centuries AD, while the number of settlements in the original Gothic heartland around the Vistula gradually decreased. Alternative views of the Goths have argued against the traditional migration story. Yet without migration it is difficult to account for the development of the Gothic language.


For references, see the original.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 09:34 AM
For the linguistic evidence, see D. H. Green, Language and History in the Early Germanic World (1998), chap. 9 : The migration of the Goths. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RONb2alF0rEC&pg=PA446&lpg=PA446&dq=Language+and+History+in+the+Early+Germanic+Worl d&source=bl&ots=gGbEgLZTK6&sig=y0TZo-B6Vm3_y3FpkYtb3BtS5J4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKrIm-p7_TAhXqJcAKHbRGBowQ6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q&f=false

It includes a word for 'hemp' (cannabis) borrowed into Germanic. Should I have a little fun with this in the new book, I wonder? :biggrin1:

GoldenHind
04-25-2017, 06:47 PM
A couple of days ago I wrote a Y-DNA section at the end of chapter 4 of the draft new book on the Anglo-Saxons. It might stay there, or might get moved, but anyway here it is.

15411



I1 distribution map will go in here, when I find one that is up to date.

[Edited: realised that I have missed out the sample of R1a1a1b at Ölsund [Mittnik2017] and the fact that the R1a1a1b at Kyndeløse actually is R1a1a1b1a3 (Z284/S221). Correcting draft.]

One comment I might make is that while R1b-L238 is largely confined to Scandinavia, it does not appear to be found in any significant extent in Denmark. Out of over 100 people in the FTDNA L238 project, there is only one who gives Denmark as his Y-DNA homeland, compared to 32 from Norway and 22 from Sweden. Ken Nordtvedt, who first identified the STR signature (which he termed R1b-Nordic) and which was later identified as L238, said it was primarily found in Norway, with a lesser number in Sweden and even fewer in Denmark.

While I concede this is not a scientific survey, it suggests to me L238 may have a distinctive history, and might have got to Norway from somewhere other than Jutland.

Also I am curious about the source of your map of haplogroup distribution in Scandinavia.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 08:13 PM
One comment I might make is that while R1b-L238 is largely confined to Scandinavia, it does not appear to be found in any significant extent in Denmark.

I seem to have got the idea that it is all over Scandinavia from Moffat and Wilson 2011, 181-3, which does not actually say that, now I come to check. I have revised the text to read:


... particular subclades which may be specific to Scandinavia, for example R1b1a1a2a1a2d (L238/S182), and R1b1a1a2a1a2a1b2 (L165/S68), both found in Scandinavia and the Northern and Western Isles of Scotland, which suggests that these are Norse markers which arrived in the Isles with Vikings.

We may get a better idea of its origins as more aDNA comes in. If we don't before I hand over text, then that speculation without aDNA might get removed, or at least moved to a later chapter, where I mention the Vikings.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 08:15 PM
Also I am curious about the source of your map of haplogroup distribution in Scandinavia.

That is from Wikimedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe

The sources used are listed and go up to 2016. If there is one more up to date, please do let me know.

Jean M
04-25-2017, 09:05 PM
For those interested in the archaeology of Wielbark, Marcin Woźniak has some interesting recent papers available (in Polish and English) at https://mshm.academia.edu/MarcinWo%C5%BAniak

Jean M
07-01-2017, 03:09 PM
There is a rumor out that an R1b-U106 has been discovered in an Iron Age Wielbark culture burial in Drozdowo, Poland.

I've been out of the loop. At a quick scan of the forum, I see no sign of the paper yet. I haven't missed it, have I?

Michał
07-01-2017, 05:55 PM
I've been out of the loop. At a quick scan of the forum, I see no sign of the paper yet. I haven't missed it, have I?
As far as I know (from rumors circulating on many different Polish forums), the above-mentioned R1b-U106 result was supposed to be found by another team of researchers who investigated the Wielbark site in village Drozdowo, in NE Poland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozdowo,_Podlaskie_Voivodeship). Also, the rumor says it was based on testing some panels of individual SNPs (a PCR-based test), so it was not a part of the Figlerowicz's project, as the Figlerowicz's team uses NGS and focuses on testing Wielbark/Przeworsk samples (and Piast period samples) from Greater Poland, although they apparently got some additional DNA samples from the Masłomęcz group in SE Poland (which is a regional subgroup of the expanding Wielbark culture). In other words, the four Wielbark results we have right now from the Figlerowicz data for Kowalewko in Greater Poland (ie. I1, I2, G-P303 and G-L30) are not the ones that were supposed to include R1b-U106. Unfortunately, I don't know which team of researchers investigates that Drozdowo site in NE Poland.

T101
07-01-2017, 09:32 PM
Thanks Michal. The rumor mill has proven to have been very spot-on as of late, and that makes a lot more sense of there being two different Wielbark sites and two fairly distinct groups: one with R1b-U106 and (I1-Z63?) that moved quickly through the area to the Ukraine, and another stay-at-home group that contained a lot of farmer G, rare Mesolithic I2, and northern I1-Z60 that would primarily stay in Sweden with only some lines going to England and Scotland.

Btw where's my R1a!!! C'mon not even one western z280 ;)