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swid
04-25-2017, 12:32 AM
Most of the other subclades of H have their own threads, so I'm starting one for H3ac.

There's not a whole lot of information out there on H3ac...not terribly surprising, it seems, as it appears to be a) a fairly small group and b) it was only defined in 2012.

Hopefully the current and future FGS sales bring in more H3ac people, so we can get a better idea about its history.

kingjohn
04-25-2017, 11:57 AM
http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h3aa-av_genbank_sequences.htm
i also belong to a rare very small group of mtdna h3 mine is h3ap
we share a common ancestor along the maternal line sometime in the past
i believe it originated in iberia or northen morocco anyway mtdna h3 is extremely rare in middle east .....
regards
adam

C J Wyatt III
04-25-2017, 03:07 PM
http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h3aa-av_genbank_sequences.htm
i also belong to a rare very small group of mtdna h3 mine is h3ap
we share a common ancestor along the maternal line sometime in the past
i believe it originated in iberia or northen morocco anyway mtdna h3 is extremely rare in middle east .....
regards
adam

I have wondered if the mtDNA experts have gone too far in subdividing H3a's. I see things which suggest that mtDNA mutations and back mutations happen at a far higher rate than generally believed. Perhaps you (kingjohn) and swid are related in a much more recent time frame.

Jack Wyatt

MacUalraig
04-25-2017, 03:38 PM
I have wondered if the mtDNA experts have gone too far in subdividing H3a's. I see things which suggest that mtDNA mutations and back mutations happen at a far higher rate than generally believed. Perhaps you (kingjohn) and swid are related in a much more recent time frame.

Jack Wyatt

Perhaps you can share your observations? They might have more general use.

swid
04-25-2017, 04:02 PM
I have wondered if the mtDNA experts have gone too far in subdividing H3a's. I see things which suggest that mtDNA mutations and back mutations happen at a far higher rate than generally believed. Perhaps you (kingjohn) and swid are related in a much more recent time frame.


Jack, H3ac and H3ap aren't branches of H3a - they're separate branches directly below H3 itself. If I counted correctly, there's 38(!) branches below H3 on the v17 Phylotree build (http://phylotree.org/tree/R0.htm). Given the small size of the mtDNA genome, I think we'll see many more clades where it's not possible to refine the phylogeny.

kingjohn
04-25-2017, 04:11 PM
correct it is not the same branch but we are all sisters who descendent from h3
http://haplogroup.org/mtdna/rsrs/l123456/l23456/l2346/l346/l34/l3/n/r/r0/hv/h/h3/
h3ao { a sister}for example was found in bell beaker remains in eastern germany....
regards
adam

C J Wyatt III
04-25-2017, 04:19 PM
Jack, H3ac and H3ap aren't branches of H3a - they're separate branches directly below H3 itself. If I counted correctly, there's 38(!) branches below H3 on the v17 Phylotree build (http://phylotree.org/tree/R0.htm). Given the small size of the mtDNA genome, I think we'll see many more clades where it's not possible to refine the phylogeny.

Thanks for the correction. I took a look and see what you are talking about. This stuff is a pretty complex weave, but I think moving up from H3a to H3 is going to make my case stronger. Let me contemplate it for a while.

Jack

C J Wyatt III
04-25-2017, 04:25 PM
Perhaps you can share your observations? They might have more general use.

Thanks, I'll post something on that soon. Maybe me and my H5 mother are closer to your H5r* than is the general consensus.

Jack

C J Wyatt III
04-25-2017, 10:12 PM
OK, the maternal line is one of the possible X-DNA lines. A X-match to one kit from a haplogroup cannot imply that the connection is via the maternal line. I have a belief that the more kits that one matches on the 'X one-to-many' from a single mtDNA haplogroup, the more likely at least some of them have a common ancestor which has the same haplogroup and happens to be the MRCA in the match with the kit that was used for the 'X one-to-many'.

When I run the 'X one-to-many' for my mother's kit (T436420) using the default parameter of 7.0 cM minimum segment and 500 SNP's, I get a total of sixty-five kits that are H3 or H3 subclades. The breakdown is:

H3 (31)
H3a (3)
H3a1 (1)
H3aa (1)
H3ag (1)
H3b1b (1)
H2b1b1 (3)
H3b3 (1)
H3c (2)
H3f (1)
H3g (5)
H3g1 (5)
H3h (1)
H3h2 (2)
H3h3 (1)
H3h3a (1)
h3p (1)
H3q (1)
H3u (1)
H3y (1)
H3z1 (1)

Fourteen kits have estimates to MRCA on the autosomal side. These range between 7.2 and 7.7 generations to MRCA, so we are talking about something that happened say about 300 years back. They are many rare subclades here that the mtDNA experts might say originated thousands of years ago. I do not think that is plausible with so many of them showing up in my mother's results. I believe a common male ancestor mated with one or more enslaved H3 females resulting in what we see here, with mutations and back-mutations changing the subclades in recent times.

Jack Wyatt

Asrai
04-23-2018, 11:25 PM
Hello,
I am part of the haplogroup H3AC. Though I am uncertain if 'unique' is a proper qualifier for this group. Surely, there are hundreds of thousands more.
Kind Regards,
Katherine