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Principe
05-01-2017, 12:41 AM
This thread is made for the purpose of discussing J2 in Southern Italy, the following regions to be covered Sicily, Calabria, Basilicata, Puglia, Campania, Molise and Abruzzo, with 1 exception Frosinone in Lazio.

One important thing to keep in mind, this is not a definite 100% accurate portrayal since sample size is no larger than 500, but at the same time it is very important as we can start to see trends for specific regions.

In terms of origin, as J2 has many branches there is not 1 source for all this J2 in Southern Italy, it will be the mixture of many sources ranging from Bronze Age to Medieval migrations from various different areas, I will present the information and others can speculate origins for specific clades.

In my research J2a is much more dominate than J2b in the South, and I found J2 as the most common haplogroup in the following Provinces and regions, Salerno (Campania), Basilicata (whole), Puglia (whole), Siracusa (Sicily), Ragusa (Sicily), Catania (Sicily), and Messina (Sicily).

In terms of J2a and J2b split its roughly 88% J2a and 12% J2b.

Almost all of J2b is J2b>L283>Z600>Z597>Z638, it is found in almost in the entire South except Southern Sicily (Agrigento and Caltanissetta,) the region of Basilicata and Puglia (except the Salento region of Lecce, which speaks a Griko language), and Salerno and Avellino in Campania. It seems to peak in Catania/Messina/Reggio Calabria and has another hotspot around Benevento/Molise/Abruzzo/Lazio.

The remaining J2b is under the J2b-M205 subclade, all of it is found in Sicily, in Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento and Enna.

I will continuing posting for J2a in the next Post.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 01:00 AM
I am going to add my input as we go. Hope this is helpful. Thank you for this thread, I have wanted it for a while!


In my research J2a is much more dominate than J2b in the South, and I found J2 as the most common haplogroup in the following Provinces and regions, Salerno (Campania), Basilicata (whole), Puglia (whole), Siracusa (Sicily), Ragusa (Sicily), Catania (Sicily), and Messina (Sicily).

Much of the J2a in these regions is likely from the Bronze Age. Once you remove the small Greek input from Catania and Messina, these regions are perhaps the most "purely" Sicilian in the sense of having no Norman input of any significance, limited Italian resettlement from any region other than Calabria which is close to identical to them culturally/linguistically/genetically to begin with, and limited North African input. So most J2 in NE Sicily has probably been there since prehistoric times and is very ancient.


Almost all of J2b is J2b>L283>Z600>Z597>Z638, it is found in almost in the entire South except Southern Sicily (Agrigento and Caltanissetta,) the region of Basilicata and Puglia (except the Salento region of Lecce, which speaks a Griko language), and Salerno and Avellino in Campania. It seems to peak in Catania/Messina/Reggio Calabria and has another hotspot around Benevento/Molise/Abruzzo/Lazio.

This J2b subclade is almost surely Greek or even possibly Illyrian, though I would not discount its presence in Italy even further back, due to its presence in Central-South Italy where Greek settlement was less. Its lack of presence in Agrigento and Caltanissetta is that these regions were the least Hellenized on the entire island, and that the "Greeks" in these regions were mostly Hellenized Sicilians from the east coast. Agrigento and Caltanissetta actually have a lot of very old Bronze Age haplogroups such as G, from the Caucasus, as well as some North African subclades of different haplogroups... they were part of a different sphere of influence than eastern Sicily and have a lot more in common with Malta.


The remaining J2b is under the J2b-M205 subclade, all of it is found in Sicily, in Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento and Enna.

Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?

Principe
05-01-2017, 01:38 AM
Now for J2a, the two most common branches come under J2a-L558 and J-L24 lineages, as there will be much more break down.

To start, the pre J2a-L558 lineages under J2a-Z2227 which include J2a-M47 and J2a-FGC15901.

J2a-M47 seems to be rare and is only found in Salerno with 3 samples.

J2a-FGC15901 seems to be somewhat more common with 9, with three being in Catania/Messina, two in Calabria (Cosenza and Catanzaro), 2 in Abruzzo (Chieti) and 1 in Molise (Isernia).

Now to J2a-L588 lineages.

J2a-Y8378 is found in only person in Agrigento.

J2a-M319, is a more common J2a in Southern Italy, with its two peaks being in Sicily and Lecce (Salento, Griko speakers, it is the most common J2a lineage), it is also found in Calabria (Cosenza), Foggia (Puglia) and Salerno (Campania) where the individual has tested J2a-S18115.

For J2a-M67 lineages there is much to cover, I will split it into J2a-Z467, J2a-Z500 and J2a-Z7671.

For J2a-Z467 there is a split between J2a-S25258 and J2a-L210 lineages, J2a-S25258 is slightly more common than J2a-L210 lineages. J2a-S25258 again can be further split into J2a-S21160 which is rare and is only found in Potenza (Basilicata) and both Benevento and Napoli (Campania), and the J2a-SK1336 lineage which is as common as J2a-M319 in the South. J2a-SK1336 is more strongly found in Sicily and Calabria, Catania, Palermo and Cosenza. It also is found in Basilicata (both Potenza and Matera), Puglia (Taranto), Campania (Napoli) and Lazio (Frosinone).

As for J2a-L210, it can be split between J2a-L210 (xZ489) and J2a-Y15222 (which I belong to). They seem to be split evenly in terms of frequency, J2a-L210 (xZ489) is found in Sicily and Campania (Messina, Caltanissetta, Ragusa and Napoli). The other J2a-Z482>Y15222 is found in Basilicata (Matera), Puglia (Bari), Calabria (Cosenza) and Sicily (Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento, and Caltanissetta).

J2a-Z500 lineages seem to be the common lineages of J2a-M67 in Southern Italy, unfortunately not many have tested further, though the vast majority seem to be under J2a-M92, there is one J2a-Z515 found in Caserta (Campania), so far the ones who tested further seem to be under J2a-CTS2906 currently only in Catania (Sicily) and Caserta (Campania). For J2a-M92 generally its highest frequency is in Campania (all evenly), the second highest is in Puglia (Taranto, Bari and Lecce), it is also the second most common J2a in the Griko speakers of Salento (Lecce), then Sicily would be the next common (a peak in Catania and Messina) and also found in Trapani, Palermo and Agrigento, and finally in Calabria with Cosenza and Reggio.

J2a-Z7671 is the least common of the J2a-M67 lineages, all are under J2a-CTS900 lineages, with Sicily having the most (only in Agrigento and Trapani), Basilicata (Potenza) he is under the J2a-CTS3261 lineage, Campania (Napoli) and Calabria (Reggio).

The third post will cover the remainder of J2a in Southern Italy.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 01:43 AM
What historical movements or regions might be the source of some of the J2 subclades above?

Principe
05-01-2017, 01:52 AM
I am going to add my input as we go. Hope this is helpful. Thank you for this thread, I have wanted it for a while!



Much of the J2a in these regions is likely from the Bronze Age. Once you remove the small Greek input from Catania and Messina, these regions are perhaps the most "purely" Sicilian in the sense of having no Norman input of any significance, limited Italian resettlement from any region other than Calabria which is close to identical to them culturally/linguistically/genetically to begin with, and limited North African input. So most J2 in NE Sicily has probably been there since prehistoric times and is very ancient.



This J2b subclade is almost surely Greek or even possibly Illyrian, though I would not discount its presence in Italy even further back, due to its presence in Central-South Italy where Greek settlement was less. Its lack of presence in Agrigento and Caltanissetta is that these regions were the least Hellenized on the entire island, and that the "Greeks" in these regions were mostly Hellenized Sicilians from the east coast. Agrigento and Caltanissetta actually have a lot of very old Bronze Age haplogroups such as G, from the Caucasus, as well as some North African subclades of different haplogroups... they were part of a different sphere of influence than eastern Sicily and have a lot more in common with Malta.



Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?

My pleasure, in terms of J2a it really depends, you have to look at specific subclades to determine what came in where and when, for me personally J2a-SK1336, J2a-FGC15901, and J2a-M319 seem to indicate a Greek origin just by looking at where they are found, some hard to fully to say, some J2a will be Eastern Med (Jewish, Phoenician and Syrian) and others will be bronze age pre Italic, as well as some might even be Italic the best bet is J2a-L70.

To answer for J2b-L283 in Southern Italy I think it will be a split between many things and only a Yfull could fully determine the origin, I think some it will have came in the spread of Italic migrations, others will be Greek and others will be Illyrian.

The J2b-M205 lineages are not further tested it peaks both in the Middle East and the Balkans, it all depends.

Principe
05-01-2017, 01:58 AM
What historical movements or regions might be the source of some of the J2 subclades above?

I am going to continue posting on the subject tomorrow, once I add the rest of J2, I will write my opinions on the movements and who brought what and when.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 02:58 AM
I am going to continue posting on the subject tomorrow, once I add the rest of J2, I will write my opinions on the movements and who brought what and when.

That will be very interesting and I look forward to it. I am especially interested to find out if a lot of the J2 in Palermo/Agrigento is directly from the Levant, rather than mediated through the Balkans.

J Man
05-01-2017, 03:53 AM
J2a here with direct paternal line roots from the Calabria region of Italy! :)

Pribislav
05-01-2017, 11:28 AM
Where does this subclade peak outside of Italy?

I would say in Western Balkans, in Serbian DNA Project J2b-M205 is currently 63/1283=4,91%. All of them belong to subclade Y22059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/).

Trojet
05-01-2017, 01:58 PM
I would say in Western Balkans, in Serbian DNA Project J2b-M205 is currently 63/1283=4,91%. All of them belong to subclade Y22059 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22059/).

According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 02:03 PM
According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html

This is a more likely place of origin for a subclade found solely in western Sicily, rather than Serbia IMO.

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 04:06 PM
According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html

One of the EBA samples from 'Ayn Ghazal, I1730, was J2b1. So I definitely think this marker was more common in the Levant by the past.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 04:10 PM
One of the EBA samples from 'Ayn Ghazal, I1730, was J2b1. So I definitely think this marker was more common in the Levant by the past.

So in the context of Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento, would you attribute it to Phoenicians?

The most organized way of sorting through this thread is to list the subclades, the part of Italy they occur, and then propose an origin based on where they are found outside of Italy today.

Nibelung
05-01-2017, 04:45 PM
However relevant, there was Selinunte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinunte) in modern Trapani, and the colony's territory extended as far as the Platani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platani_(river)).

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 04:51 PM
However relevant, there was Selinunte (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinunte) in modern Trapani, and the colony's territory extended as far as the Platani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platani_(river)).

I think E1b1b is a better marker of Greek ancestry than J2. South Italy is higher in J2 than Greece is, and has a more diverse range of subclades.

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 06:59 PM
So in the context of Trapani, Palermo, and Agrigento, would you attribute it to Phoenicians?

The most organized way of sorting through this thread is to list the subclades, the part of Italy they occur, and then propose an origin based on where they are found outside of Italy today.

While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.


I think E1b1b is a better marker of Greek ancestry than J2. South Italy is higher in J2 than Greece is, and has a more diverse range of subclades.

E-V13? Perhaps... Other branches of E-M35.1? Unlikely, J2a-M319 and J2a-M92 remain more convincing contenders.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 08:15 PM
While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.

According to this map and others, there is a J2 hot spot right near Palermo and nearby towns (Carini, Capaci, etc) and I wonder if this is attributable to Phoenicians. I would be really interested in seeing the subclades. I have some ancestry in this area.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DHFjD7y3i0Y/Tdp9ol50DVI/AAAAAAAAGp4/bWSnGK2VZv8/s1600/J2+map.png

Dorkymon
05-01-2017, 08:22 PM
Somewhat relevant

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6563-The-Origin-of-Romanians-(Vlachs)&p=230462&viewfull=1#post230462

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 08:24 PM
I would advise against taking material from "The Genetic Atlas" too seriously.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 08:28 PM
I would advise against taking material from "The Genetic Atlas" too seriously.

Is it a biased source?

Agamemnon
05-01-2017, 08:29 PM
Is it a biased source?

Oh yes :nod:

Principe
05-01-2017, 10:54 PM
The further breakdown of J2a-L24 lineages and the remaining J2a.

J2a-PF7431 found in roughly 6 samples and is mainly concentrated between Campania, Basilicata and Puglia (Napoli, Matera and Bari).

J2a-FGC35508 seems to be fairly common, so far found in all Southern provinces except Calabria and Molise, in Sicily only 1 so far (Agrigento), in Abruzzo there is a hotspot in L'Aquila, Campania (Napoli and Avellino) and Puglia (Foggia).

As a specific lineage J2a-L70 is by far the most representing close to 20% of all J2a in Southern, it is found in every region and province in South, it was also the common J2a lineage in the remote Italian villages tested in Lazio and Abruzzo. The two common downstreams of J2a-L70 in Southern Italians is J2a-PF5456 and J2a-Z2177.

J2a-F3133 lineages are rare in Italy and have not been further tested, so far only found in Calabria (Catanzaro).

J2a-L192 lineages seem to be rarer in the South than in the North, in the South it is spread out sporadicly two hotspots exist in the South 1 in Cosenza (Calabria) and the other in Napoli (Campania).

J2a-PF5172 as at least 4 lineages in Italy further breaking down to J2a-FGC16096, J2a-PF5174, J2a-PF7421 and J2a-PH1222.

J2a-PH1222 is only found in Agrigento, J2a-PF7421 is only found in Potenza (Basilicata) and J2a-PF5174 only in Salerno.

J2a-FGC16096 is the most spread out of the J2a-PF5172 lineages, its highest hotspot is in Campania (all provinces), and was also found in Bari and Palermo.

J2a-Z6046 lineages are split into three, J2a-PH4959, J2a-SK1363 and J2a-Z6048.

J2a-PH4959 is only found in Isernia (Molise).

J2a-SK1363 is found in Napoli and Foggia (Puglia).

J2a-Z6048 is by far the most of the three lineages and has its highest hotspot in Campania around Napoli and Salerno, found also in Trapani/Palermo/Agrigento (Sicilia), and Foggia (Puglia).

The last J2a branch is under the J2a-PF5008, with all belonging under J2a-PF7384, its highest frequency and the vast majority is found in Sicily in all provinces, and appears in Calabria (Cosenza), Campania (Napoli) and Lazio.

JerryS.
05-01-2017, 11:16 PM
it is my understanding the Y haplogroups determination from autosomal DNA is a bit of a guessing game? unless there is just a Y DNA test and just a mt DNA test, haplogroups tend to blend in the autosomal sample?

Principe
05-01-2017, 11:21 PM
To answer at least the origin of J2b-M205 in Sicily, my personal belief is that it is Levantine in origin, we find J2b-M205 lineages in Sardegna under the J2b-PF7300 which was found in the ancient Levant, whether the Phoenicians brought it specifically it is difficult to say, as some could be Phoenician in origin while others can be later on. Very important additional information about this is we find one in Enna the region is named after Ennus the Syrian slave who led the rebellion against his Roman masters, and his main partner was Cleon a slave of Cilician descent, for anybody more interested in the First Serville War here is the brief wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War. What is to be noticed is that the two main chiefs of the revolt were from the East Med and were both under Greek realm before becoming slaves, it seems logically that most slaves brought to Southern Italy would have been Greek speakers as majority of the South spoke Greek at the time, the origins of most slaves would have came from Greek realm (Southern Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt).

Principe
05-01-2017, 11:23 PM
J2a here with direct paternal line roots from the Calabria region of Italy! :)

That's great J-Man fellow J2 brother, have you tested further? Are you negative for J2a-FGC15901 or J2a-M47?

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 11:26 PM
To answer at least the origin of J2b-M205 in Sicily, my personal belief is that it is Levantine in origin, we find J2b-M205 lineages in Sardegna under the J2b-PF7300 which was found in the ancient Levant, whether the Phoenicians brought it specifically it is difficult to say, as some could be Phoenician in origin while others can be later on. Very important additional information about this is we find one in Enna the region is named after Ennus the Syrian slave who led the rebellion against his Roman masters, and his main partner was Cleon a slave of Cilician descent, for anybody more interested in the First Serville War here is the brief wikipedia page on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Servile_War. What is to be noticed is that the two main chiefs of the revolt were from the East Med and were both under Greek realm before becoming slaves, it seems logically that most slaves brought to Southern Italy would have been Greek speakers as majority of the South spoke Greek at the time, the origins of most slaves would have came from Greek realm (Southern Balkans, Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt).

A lot of Byzantine "Greeks" in Sicily were likely Greek speaking West Asians. This could also explain high "eastern" R1b in Calabria and eastern Sicily.

Enna was, as far as I know, named after the region's Greek name, originally "Hennaion".

Principe
05-01-2017, 11:46 PM
While there's a fair chance J2b1-M205 might've arrived with the Phoenicians, I would not necessarily vouch for such an association without a clearer picture of this marker's phylogeny.



E-V13? Perhaps... Other branches of E-M35.1? Unlikely, J2a-M319 and J2a-M92 remain more convincing contenders.

Aga yes they do, J2a-M319 is almost surely Greek in Southern Italy, J2a-M92 is a bit tricker only because people have not tested further, but surely one of the J2a-M92 lineages is Greek, it peaks in areas where Ionic Greeks settled, Campania and Messina/Catania/Reggio also it is the second most common J2a in Griko speakers of the Salento region in Lecce only after J2a-M319, and though on most maps it shows that area to be settled by Doric Greeks, the Griko language is a descendent of Ionic there is more to it, I believe also that J2a-M92 is found higher in places where Ionics settled in general, though it is not found or is extremely rare in Modern Greece. I would say there is good chances that a good portion if not majority of J2a-M92 in Southern Italy is Greek but not exclusively as some might be Eastern Mediterranean or older Bronze Age migrations.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 11:49 PM
Aga yes they do, J2a-M319 is almost surely Greek in Southern Italy, J2a-M92 is a bit tricker only because people have not tested further, but surely one of the J2a-M92 lineages is Greek, it peaks in areas where Ionic Greeks settled, Campania and Messina/Catania/Reggio .

Many of these Greeks were Hellenized Aegean islanders and western Anatolians. But there is still a presence of J2 subclades peaking in Albania and northern Greece in southern Italy, too.

Principe
05-01-2017, 11:50 PM
A lot of Byzantine "Greeks" in Sicily were likely Greek speaking West Asians. This could also explain high "eastern" R1b in Calabria and eastern Sicily.

Enna was, as far as I know, named after the region's Greek name, originally "Hennaion".

Yeah it appears you are right with the Enna etymology, I personally think the high Eastern R1b-Z2103 lineages in Calabria and Eastern Sicily is Greek, and could be an accumulation of the two.

Sikeliot
05-01-2017, 11:52 PM
Yeah it appears you are right with the Enna etymology, I personally think the high Eastern R1b-Z2103 lineages in Calabria and Eastern Sicily is Greek, and could be an accumulation of the two.

It is higher in southern Italy than in Greece. It may have been carried by Greek speaking people, but they were likely not of Greek origin themselves. Eastern R1b is high in Pontic Greeks for instance who are Hellenized Caucasus people.

Nibelung
05-02-2017, 12:15 AM
Sea Peoples?

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 12:20 AM
Sea Peoples?

Most migration of the "Sea Peoples" were people from the Mediterranean islands (Crete, Sicily, possibly Sardinia) moving east. So if anything, they would have brought "European" DNA to the Near East.

What is clear is some of the J2 in southern Italy was native, some was Levantine, and some Greek. We need a neat way of breaking down the subclades and their origins. But we also need to reconcile history and haplogroups with autosomal DNA. Northeast Sicily and Calabria (as well as most of the Aegean islanders) do not plot autosomally near mainland Greeks, so we should also consider who the Greek speaking people there really came from.

Nibelung
05-02-2017, 12:26 AM
Yeah, concerning the Sea Peoples, I regretted it as soon as posted, knowing too little about the region and time period, but they're always exciting anyways.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 12:49 AM
It is higher in southern Italy than in Greece. It may have been carried by Greek speaking people, but they were likely not of Greek origin themselves. Eastern R1b is high in Pontic Greeks for instance who are Hellenized Caucasus people.

That doesn't make any sense.

Principe
05-02-2017, 12:52 AM
It is higher in southern Italy than in Greece. It may have been carried by Greek speaking people, but they were likely not of Greek origin themselves. Eastern R1b is high in Pontic Greeks for instance who are Hellenized Caucasus people.

All good points, but remember lineages die, maybe R1b-Z2103 might have been more prevalent in Ancient Greeks than modern ones, but then again maybe Greek R1b initially was R1b-PF7562 like Albanians, I found quite a bit of it in Southern Italy in my research, and theres also the fact that Southern Italians score higher East Med than Mainland Greeks, surely this is a fact that cannot be ignored.

Principe
05-02-2017, 12:54 AM
it is my understanding the Y haplogroups determination from autosomal DNA is a bit of a guessing game? unless there is just a Y DNA test and just a mt DNA test, haplogroups tend to blend in the autosomal sample?

Jerry there is specific Y dna tests, I personally find it important and it is my preferred interest, you can test your Y with ftdna if you haven't done so already.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 01:00 AM
That doesn't make any sense.

I mean there could have been people arriving in Italy who spoke Greek and had a Greek identity, but they were genetically not from mainland Greece but Hellenized native people from elsewhere. Based on autosomal DNA this is most likely.

JerryS.
05-02-2017, 01:03 AM
Jerry there is specific Y dna tests, I personally find it important and it is my preferred interest, you can test your Y with ftdna if you haven't done so already.

ive done the autosomal with Ancestry because I didn't have the money for two different tests.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 01:04 AM
The other possibility is haplogroups have a "founder effect" and the autosomal component gets diluted over time.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 01:14 AM
I mean there could have been people arriving in Italy who spoke Greek and had a Greek identity, but they were genetically not from mainland Greece but Hellenized native people from elsewhere. Based on autosomal DNA this is most likely.

I see no reason to assume that R1b-Z2103 was absent from the earliest Greek-speaking communities, unless we're dealing with specific branches that clearly are Near Eastern in origin.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 01:15 AM
I see no reason to assume that R1b-Z2103 was absent from the earliest Greek-speaking communities, unless we're dealing with specific branches that clearly are Near Eastern in origin.

I am trying to justify the lack of genetic plotting with mainland Greeks, when we are finding Greek haplogroups in eastern Sicily. There has to be some reason.

Principe
05-02-2017, 01:25 AM
Bronze Age sources for J2 start and begin with the Castelluccio culture in Southern Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castelluccio_culture

Then was followed by an Armenian or Anatolian like movement (possibly Hurrian or Hattic like peoples). Linked to the Oenotrians and the Elymians, there are those who will say that those two were Italic, I highly doubt it, the Oenotrians have an apparent affinity to Arcadia which was according to the ancient Greeks Pelasgic in origin, they likely spread Viticulture to both Italy and Greece (I am talking general) as this would have been the Aegean/Mediterranean civilization which existed in the Bronze Age. Elymians would have also been related to this group in my opinion. The Etruscans were also related to them and either came later or from somewhere else in Europe, there is no way they develop haruspicy on their own, even if there will be an argument for the Greeks introducing it to them, the Greeks did not practice it, and it was originally used by Sumerians and Hurrians to which later Indo-European Anatolian groups used and Italy having strong links to East Med and Caucasus, these migrations came in earlier and later (Etruscans) from the Indo-European migrations into Italy, also another crucial point Italians score high Armenian Bronze Age admixture in the MDLP 11 calculators.

Then there is some J2 that came in with Italic tribes that could have either be absorbed in the Steppes or in Europe on their way to Italy.

Then there is the Phoenicians who brought some J2 into Italy as well, aside from the 3 colonies in Sicily, they were great trading partners and allies with Phoenicians and later Carthigians, as Phoenician merchants would have lived in Etruscan cities and vice versa, there is also the case of the Greek trading colony of Ischia which had native Italians, Greek and Phoenicians living in there.

Then it goes without any doubt Greeks would further bring J2 in Southern Italy and other places in Italy concerning the Central and Northern parts. This would be continued later on with Byzantines.

Then came the Roman period where there was Greek speaking East Med populations like Syrians and Cilicians as we see in the example of the First Servile War, and we have Jews coming into Italy and having established communities which would basically last until the Inquisition (though many conversos and crypto Jews would remain, such as my paternal ancestors).

Medieval era would have brought input from the Byzantine periods and later Arbereshe migrants also would have brought some J2b lineages.

This basically sums up the J2 story in Italy and why it is so highly diversified.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 01:30 AM
The Elymians, Sicels, Sicani and Oenotrians might've been Italic in origin, however. That's also a possibility.

Principe
05-02-2017, 01:31 AM
ive done the autosomal with Ancestry because I didn't have the money for two different tests.

If you get the chance to do it, its worth it, transfer your kit to ftdna and purchase a basic Y str test preferably Y25 at minimum and wait until the father's day special which should be in June.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 01:39 AM
The Elymians, Sicels, Sicani and Oenetrians might've been Italic in origin, however. That's also a possibility.

Sicanians were pre-Indo European and also were the predominant Bronze Age culture on Malta. Siculi were Italic. But Elymians were probably Anatolian, their language shows some relationship to Hittite.

I always envisioned the Elymians to be Armenian-like.

Principe
05-02-2017, 01:42 AM
The Elymians, Sicels, Sicani and Oenetrians might've been Italic in origin, however. That's also a possibility.

The Sicels I think were Italic and the Sicani were probably Celtic there is the myth that they originally came from Spain, but further investigation needs to be done to clarify that. Elymians I am not sure and I think would've have been similar to the Oenotrians, for me the Oenotrians were not Italic, if they spoke an Indo-European language it was not Italic as they were pushed out by the incoming Italic tribes (Lucanians, Bruttians, etc...) and them being associated with Viticulture is another interesting factor for me, did the early Indo-Europeans drink wine?

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 01:53 AM
The jury is still out on this, after having reviewed some of the evidence I think that Sicel and Elymian definitely were Indo-European languages, and that the former might well've been Italic or para-Italic. The latter possibly could be para-Italo-Celtic (hence the resemblance to Ligurian), however Anatolian is also worthy of consideration.

Much like Messapic, Venetic and North Picene, the data is scarce and does not allow us to make far-reaching conclusions, much less to elaborate by using these mysterious languages as a starting point.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 01:55 AM
The Sicels I think were Italic and the Sicani were probably Celtic

What basis do you have for this? Based on autosomal DNA this is unlikely to me. The strong similarity of Sicily to Crete implies they were closer to Minoans, who were also not Indo-European.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 01:58 AM
What basis do you have for this? Based on autosomal DNA this is unlikely to me. The strong similarity of Sicily to Crete implies they were closer to Minoans, who were also not Indo-European.

Population genetics has no bearing on the likeliness of a given genetic relationship in linguistics, though it can (strongly) suggest that a given theory is more plausible than the next it cannot confirm or infirm it. Let's not muddy the waters here.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 02:00 AM
Population genetics has no bearing on the likeliness of a given genetic relationship in linguistics, it can suggest that a given theory is more plausible but it cannot confirm or infirm it. Let's not muddy the waters here.

Celtic languages are Indo-European. I have seen no persuasive evidence that Sicanians were Indo-European at all.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 02:08 AM
Celtic languages are Indo-European. I have seen no persuasive evidence that Sicanians were Indo-European at all.

I've heard of at least one Italian linguist (Antonio Sciarretta) who classified Sicanian as IE and proposed a genetic relationship with Ligurian, I am not saying that I support this (as a rule of thumb, I tend to take what Italian linguists say with a grain of salt). But that's above the point, which is that the data is too scarce to make any firm pronouncement on the classification of these languages.

Principe
05-02-2017, 02:17 AM
The jury is still out on this, after having reviewed some of the evidence I think that Sicel and Elymian definitely were Indo-European languages, and that the former might well've been Italic or para-Italic. The latter possibly could be para-Italo-Celtic (hence the resemblance to Ligurian), however Anatolian is also worthy of consideration.

Much like Messapic, Venetic and North Picene, the data is scarce and does not allow us to make far-reaching conclusions, much less to elaborate by using these mysterious languages as a starting point.

Good point, maybe it is too early to make assessments, though when it comes to the Etruscans I would think it is a safe bet. There is still much archaeology to be done in Southern Italy, am really curious to see the developments.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 02:19 AM
South Italy may have Celtic-like ancestry from Italic people (as the two are linked) but Sicanian has never been classified and doubtful it was related to Celtic in any way.

The question I still have is why we do not plot with mainland Greeks if haplogroups match there.

Principe
05-02-2017, 02:22 AM
What basis do you have for this? Based on autosomal DNA this is unlikely to me. The strong similarity of Sicily to Crete implies they were closer to Minoans, who were also not Indo-European.

Similar to what Aga said, the language they spoke might not really reflect the dna of the people, the Sicani language could have been Celtic language, could have been brought by a group of colonists, and the locals to which the Sicani came just adopted the language without changing the dna, similar case with R1b-U152 could have been the lineage of the Sicels but it is much lower than R1b-Z2103 in Eastern Sicily.

Principe
05-02-2017, 02:30 AM
South Italy may have Celtic-like ancestry from Italic people (as the two are linked) but Sicanian has never been classified and doubtful it was related to Celtic in any way.

The question I still have is why we do not plot with mainland Greeks if haplogroups match there.

Greeks are less represented in dna, that is a tough question to answer.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 02:50 AM
Greeks are less represented in dna, that is a tough question to answer.

What is also interesting is Crete and Aegean islands seem to have y-dna subclades matching Italy, not Greece for some haplogroups.

JerryS.
05-02-2017, 03:03 AM
What is also interesting is Crete and Aegean islands seem to have y-dna subclades matching Italy, not Greece for some haplogroups.

Crete (Kriti) was once a Venetian (N. Italian) colony.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 03:49 AM
Crete (Kriti) was once a Venetian (N. Italian) colony.

That could explain it.

All I know is, if we believe the Sicani and Elymians were actually European in origin, then we have some real explaining to do to get to the modern day genetic structure of Sicily. We also have to get past the gap between them and mainland Greeks. The only alternative, if we accept European origin for Sicani and Elymians AND presume large Greek influence, is to assume a large, historical era migration from the Levant (Phoenician or even from the Arab conquest).

And I guess we need to see if y-dna bears this out or not. If it does not, then we must conclude the prehistoric populations could not have been as European as we think.

vettor
05-02-2017, 03:50 AM
Crete (Kriti) was once a Venetian (N. Italian) colony.

it was under Venice for nearly 500 years , it was the only place the venetian allowed wives and children to live apart from italy and istria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Candia

there are DNA papers on the haplogroups that venetian brought to crete...........most R1b

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

the longest seige in military history happened there ....21 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Candia

vettor
05-02-2017, 03:55 AM
sorry i am too slow , typing with left hand only and i broke my right wrist (main hand), ....from cheering , hit wall , as i found out i will be a grandfather early october

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 04:02 AM
If anyone knows about Cretan subclades of J2 it'd be interesting to see if they match with southern Italy. I think there are Cretan-specific subclades, even.

Asimakidis
05-02-2017, 08:07 AM
Crete was also repopulated with Anatolian Greeks during Nikephoros II Phocas. It is not a coincidence that both Pontic Greeks and Cretan Greeks both have the same musical instrument "the lyra" , even if they use it somehow differently..

Bane
05-02-2017, 08:41 AM
If anyone knows about Cretan subclades of J2 it'd be interesting to see if they match with southern Italy. I think there are Cretan-specific subclades, even.

http://i.imgur.com/9jWYDSn.gif

source: Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2007.00414.x/full)



http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/images/5201769f2.gif

source: Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html)

Principe
05-02-2017, 11:38 AM
What is also interesting is Crete and Aegean islands seem to have y-dna subclades matching Italy, not Greece for some haplogroups.

I was even looking at Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, they match as well with Southern Italian clades especially J2a.

Principe
05-02-2017, 11:42 AM
sorry i am too slow , typing with left hand only and i broke my right wrist (main hand), ....from cheering , hit wall , as i found out i will be a grandfather early october

Auguri Vettor, that must be a nice feeling.

Principe
05-02-2017, 11:46 AM
If anyone knows about Cretan subclades of J2 it'd be interesting to see if they match with southern Italy. I think there are Cretan-specific subclades, even.

The most common J2a in Crete is J2a-M319, not sure about its distribution among other Greeks, as it seems to be far less common in Pontic Greeks.

Principe
05-02-2017, 01:20 PM
I would like to add as well, that my research has given me a similar conclusion to Maciamo of Eupedia with J2a-Z435 (downstream of J2a-L70) in particular J2a-PF5456 and J2a-Z2177 as being Roman or Italic clades, they are found everywhere, and J2a-Z435 as a total represents roughly 18% of all J2 in Southern Italy. J2b-L283 clades will have multiple origins as well, in Molise, Abruzzo, Frosinone, Benevento and Caserta I see it as being Italic as well, only in the South it can vary between Illyrian-Albano and Greek, and of course Italic.

J Man
05-02-2017, 03:02 PM
That's great J-Man fellow J2 brother, have you tested further? Are you negative for J2a-FGC15901 or J2a-M47?

This is me.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP879*/

id:YF03165ITA [IT-CS]

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 03:35 PM
I was even looking at Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, they match as well with Southern Italian clades especially J2a.

This could be due to common Neolithic origins as well.

Principe
05-02-2017, 03:51 PM
This is me.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP879*/

id:YF03165ITA [IT-CS]

Your result is interesting, your subclade probably came into Italy with a Bronze Age Armenian like population.

Principe
05-02-2017, 03:53 PM
This could be due to common Neolithic origins as well.

It could be, for me J2 starts in Italy during the Bronze Age, Neolithic Italy had no J2, J2 was only found in 1 Neolithic European ancient remain.

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 03:58 PM
It could be, for me J2 starts in Italy during the Bronze Age, Neolithic Italy had no J2, J2 was only found in 1 Neolithic European ancient remain.

I mix up those terms -- Bronze Age and Neolithic. My apologies.

What is also worth noting is some suspect that Neolithic Greece was more similar to Sardinia, which means that Sicily could have been too. In this case, all of the West Asian haplogroups like J2 would have come to both much later.

J Man
05-02-2017, 04:28 PM
Your result is interesting, your subclade probably came into Italy with a Bronze Age Armenian like population.

My closest STR matches are with Arabs, Armenians and a family who's surname is Courson.

BMK
05-02-2017, 05:15 PM
According to this study J2b1-M205 is 5.9% in Cyprus and apparently quite frequent also in the southern Levant:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s13323-016-0032-8/fulltext.html

J2b1-M205 among the Greek-Cypriots from that study.
https://s16.postimg.org/c6etykiph/image.jpg

Sikeliot
05-02-2017, 05:25 PM
J2b1-M205 among the Greek-Cypriots from that study.
https://s16.postimg.org/c6etykiph/image.jpg


Likely a Levantine link then, to both (western) Sicily and Cyprus.

Agamemnon
05-02-2017, 06:19 PM
I was even looking at Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, they match as well with Southern Italian clades especially J2a.

Also noticed that some time ago.

Principe
05-02-2017, 10:04 PM
I mix up those terms -- Bronze Age and Neolithic. My apologies.

What is also worth noting is some suspect that Neolithic Greece was more similar to Sardinia, which means that Sicily could have been too. In this case, all of the West Asian haplogroups like J2 would have come to both much later.

No worries about it :) I associate Neolithic haplogroups as more G and some T (Vettor can specify on this).

Principe
05-02-2017, 10:07 PM
My closest STR matches are with Arabs, Armenians and a family who's surname is Courson.

Is there a specific country in the Arab world where you get most of your matches? Or region that can help?!

Principe
05-02-2017, 10:13 PM
Also noticed that some time ago.


Yup they have the J2a-FGC35503, J2a-M319, J2a-M92, even the upstream of my subclade J2a-L210, J2a-PH1222 and J2a-FGC15865, but I would think the connections be older.

Edward J
05-03-2017, 01:09 PM
FGC35503 here...I am at the split from J-Z39975 (3,700 ybp) at J-Z39975* in Yfull. Two of us at this SNP, both with a German paternal line.

Principe
05-03-2017, 11:33 PM
FGC35503 here...I am at the split from J-Z39975 (3,700 ybp) at J-Z39975* in Yfull. Two of us at this SNP, both with a German paternal line.

Ah there might be something to it, this is more or less the time of BR2 lived, maybe suggesting some J2a's and possibly J2b's entered the Steppe area or started migrating from Anatolia around roughly this time period 4500-3500 ybp. What do you think? What do your str matches look like and what ethnic backgrounds?

Edward J
05-04-2017, 12:35 PM
Ah there might be something to it, this is more or less the time of BR2 lived, maybe suggesting some J2a's and possibly J2b's entered the Steppe area or started migrating from Anatolia around roughly this time period 4500-3500 ybp. What do you think? What do your str matches look like and what ethnic backgrounds?

Thanks for the input. I only two STR matches that also have German origins. Here is screen grab of my grouping in the L24 project, which shows 'interestingly near' kits. There appears to be a small European cluster in this group. Only one my matches is in the group and is confirmed to be J-Z39975*. If I ever do big Y, we would start a new branch on this node.


15570

Principe
05-04-2017, 01:21 PM
Thanks for the input. I only two STR matches that also have German origins. Here is screen grab of my grouping in the L24 project, which shows 'interestingly near' kits. There appears to be a small European cluster in this group. Only one my matches is in the group and is confirmed to be J-Z39975*. If I ever do big Y, we would start a new branch on this node.


15570

It makes sense too, your split is before J2a-L70 which is mainly European, to me some of J2a-L70`s downstreams look to be absorbed by Indo-Europeans, they probably lived in the Northern Caucasus and that`s why it still exists in Pontic Greeks, maybe J2a-Z387 lineages could be linked to Maïkop culture?

Edward J
05-04-2017, 01:48 PM
North Caucasus was also where I was guessing for Z-387.

Principe
05-04-2017, 02:44 PM
I would also add J2a-CTS900 in that region as well, as we see with BR2 in Hungary later on, the history of J2 is very complex. Would be interesting to see how much J2 was in the Maïkop Culture.

Principe
05-05-2017, 04:56 PM
Now getting to the potential origins of these clades in Italy, I break it down it down into a couple of parts.

Since the discussing of J2a-Z435 and J2a-FGC35508, along with J2b-L283 related lineages and downclades most of these three would have been brought through Italic Tribes, and were probably absorbed by I.E. migrations on their way into Europe, these three along with J2a-CTS900 related clades could have made up a good portion of the Maykop culture, whatever was not brought in from the Italics, was brought in by the Greeks or Illyrians, to know 100% for each instance a deeper snp test would be needed for further information.

I think J2a-PF5172 and J2a-Z6046 lineages in Italy have a dual identity, with some of it coming in the Bronze Age and others coming in Roman Era, similar to the other lineages above, deep snp testing needs to be done to know the exact origin and when it came in, some will be Bronze Age while others relatively much more recent (200 BC-400 AD).

The Etruscans brought in J2a-F3133 lineages like J2a-L192, and some J2a-L558 lineages such as J2a-Z515 and J2a-L210 (earlier split), most of the brother clades of these would also come in with Greek and Eastern Mediterranean migrations in later periods.

The Greeks as discussed early, brought in quite a few J2a's in Southern and minor J2b-L283 related lineages, the extent of how much they brought will need further inspection of deep snp testing, as the current data is showing these 4 J2a's seem to have been brought in by the Greeks, J2a-M319, a subclade of J2a-M92, J2a-SK1336 and J2a-FGC15901, they all peak in areas of Greek colonization, these are the best candidates in my opinion.

In terms of Phoenician, Jewish, Syrian and other J2a and J2b-M205 that was brought into Italy, further snp testing needs to be see where they match, but the rest of J2a and J2b-M205 should be of Middle Eastern descent ranging from the Phoenician colonization until the Middle Ages. Two Jewish J2a lineages are J2a-Y15222 (under the J2a-L210 branch) and J2a-L243 (under the J2a-PF7431) are found, they are even found close to each other in 4 instances, until now other J2 Jewish lineages in Southern Italy have been found but further snp testing or more testers can find more. In the cases of J2b-M205 and J2a-M47 these are just an example of guaranteed lineages that resulted in Italy's long history with connections of the Eastern Mediterranean, as J2b-M205 was discussed earlier in the thread with a possible Phoenician-Syrian connection, J2a-M47 will likely have a similar connection, and many others that I listed.

Larth
05-05-2017, 05:32 PM
The Etruscans brought in J2a-F3133 lineages like J2a-L192, and some J2a-L558 lineages such as J2a-Z515 and J2a-L210 (earlier split), most of the brother clades of these would also come in with Greek and Eastern Mediterranean migrations in later periods..

This is just your personal opinion.

Principe
05-05-2017, 05:58 PM
This is just your personal opinion.

Yes it is, this is what I came up with from my personal research. Would like to see some ancient DNA prove these.

Larth
05-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Yes it is, this is what I came up with from my personal research. Would like to see some ancient DNA prove these.

Where do J2a-L192, J2a-Z515 and J2a-L210 peak in Italy?

Principe
05-05-2017, 07:59 PM
Where do J2a-L192, J2a-Z515 and J2a-L210 peak in Italy?

J2a-L192 is the result of one person who did snp testing, its upstream J2a-Z7700 is found all over or as I wrote it J2a-F3133, its peak is Central-North Italy, in the South in Campania, with the other two J2a-Z515 was found in Campania as well, and also in Toscana, there is also many J2a-M92 that didn't test further we don't full know the extent of how many will turn out to be J2a-Z515, regardless J2a-M92 highest frequency is Campania also. For J2a-L210 they will mostly be J2a-CTS7505 and another J2a-Z478 which is under J2a-Z482, J2a-L210 lineages will have a complicated history in Italy, my downstream is found in Basilicata, Puglia, Cosenza and Southern Sicilia and overall is rare and is Jewish, there is another J2a-L210 line which is found primarily in Sicily and matches Syrians, Cretans and Lebanese, the other two which I think are linked to the Etruscans of course are found in Campania and Le Marche where they are the most similar to the J2a-L210 lineage which I believe came in with the Etruscans, as I am sure you know the Etruscans also had colonies in Campania, which makes those two much more of a stronger possibility.

Edward J
05-05-2017, 08:23 PM
Thanks for your work on this!!!

Larth
05-05-2017, 08:50 PM
J2a-L192 is the result of one person who did snp testing, its upstream J2a-Z7700 is found all over or as I wrote it J2a-F3133, its peak is Central-North Italy, in the South in Campania, with the other two J2a-Z515 was found in Campania as well, and also in Toscana, there is also many J2a-M92 that didn't test further we don't full know the extent of how many will turn out to be J2a-Z515, regardless J2a-M92 highest frequency is Campania also. For J2a-L210 they will mostly be J2a-CTS7505 and another J2a-Z478 which is under J2a-Z482, J2a-L210 lineages will have a complicated history in Italy, my downstream is found in Basilicata, Puglia, Cosenza and Southern Sicilia and overall is rare and is Jewish, there is another J2a-L210 line which is found primarily in Sicily and matches Syrians, Cretans and Lebanese, the other two which I think are linked to the Etruscans of course are found in Campania and Le Marche where they are the most similar to the J2a-L210 lineage which I believe came in with the Etruscans, as I am sure you know the Etruscans also had colonies in Campania, which makes those two much more of a stronger possibility.

99% of these places are not Etruscan areas to begin with. You still have very few numbers. Most of these lineages can be just Bronze-Age migrations. There no historical and archeological proofs of an Etruscan mass-migration, Etruria was already massively inhabited, even by IE speakers. Even the greatest supporters of a migationist theory now only speak of an elite migration, a tiny minority, and there is now a great consensus that Etruscan language was related to the Rhaetic language spoken in the Alps, and their link dates back before the Bronze Age.

J2 in Italy is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas. Among the Etruscan colonies in Campania very few were esclusively Etruscan. The continuity in Campania was between the Villanovan settlements of Campania and the Etruscan cities.

The black in the map is the largest area of ​​influence ever reached, but not everyone in the black area spoke Etruscan as the first language.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Tyrsenian_languages.svg/800px-Tyrsenian_languages.svg.png

Principe
05-05-2017, 08:51 PM
Thanks for your work on this!!!

My pleasure I try my very best :)

Principe
05-05-2017, 08:59 PM
99% of these places are not Etruscan areas to begin with. You still have very few numbers. Most of these lineages can be just Bronze-Age migrations. There no historical and archeological proofs of an Etruscan mass-migration, Etruria was already massively inhabited, even by IE speakers. Even the greatest supporters of a migationist theory now only speak of an elite migration, a tiny minority, and there is now a great consensus that Etruscan language was related to the Rhaetic language spoken in the Alps, and their link dates back before the Bronze Age.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Tyrsenian_languages.svg/800px-Tyrsenian_languages.svg.png

Explain how they practiced Haruspicy? Which was original Sumerian, then practiced by Hurrians, then adopted by Anatolian Bronze Age cultures, and finally the Etruscans, you can't say the Greeks introduced it to them, because the Greeks did not practice Haruspicy. The Etruscan language even has similarity with Hurrian and Nakh languages, yes to point that it was not a massive migration, and local peoples were absorbed. And so?? They are close by, you don't think people moved? Tyrsenian language family is not Indo-European and is at least Bronze Age migrations from the Middle East, for me this language group is related to either Hattic or Hurrian and they came from the area of the fertile crescent. There is lingual and dna proof.

Larth
05-05-2017, 09:11 PM
Explain how they practiced Haruspicy? Which was original Sumerian, then practiced by Hurrians, then adopted by Anatolian Bronze Age cultures, and finally the Etruscans, you can't say the Greeks introduced it to them, because the Greeks did not practice Haruspicy.

Cultural contacts or religious elite.


The Etruscan language even has similarity with Hurrian and Nakh languages, yes to point that it was not a massive migration, and local peoples were absorbed. And so?? They are close by, you don't think people moved? Tyrsenian language family is not Indo-European and is at least Bronze Age migrations from the Middle East, for me this language group is related to either Hattic or Hurrian and they came from the area of the fertile crescent. There is lingual and dna proof.

Dismissed theory. You can relate Etruscan with Hattic, Hurrian but you'll clash with the fact that J2 in Italy is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas.

Tyrsenian language family is related to the Raethic language.

Agamemnon
05-05-2017, 09:25 PM
Dismissed theory. You can relate Etruscan with Hattic, Hurrian but you'll clash with the fact that J2 in Italy is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas.

I've seen no such proposal, what I've seen so far is a proposed link to Eteocretan on the one hand and a link to NE Caucasian and Hurrian (grouped into what Starostin and Diakonoff have dubbed the "Alarodian" family).


Tyrsenian language family is related to the Raethic language.

Rhætic is a Tyrsenian language, it isn't merely "related" to the Tyrsenian family.

Larth
05-05-2017, 09:28 PM
I've seen no such proposal, what I've seen so far is a proposed link to Eteocretan on the one hand and a link to NE Caucasian and Hurrian (grouped into what Starostin and Diakonoff have dubbed the "Alarodian" family).

And some have also included the Basque language. All dismissed theories (it was Principe to mention Hattic).



Rhætic is a Tyrsenian language, it isn't merely "related" to the Tyrsenian family.

It was pretty obvious that Rhætic is a Tyrsenian language.

Agamemnon
05-05-2017, 09:33 PM
And some have also included the Basque language. All dismissed theories (it was Principe to mention Hattic).

None are "dismissed". They merely have not gained acceptance given the non-compelling nature of the evidence put forth to support these theories. The only "dismissed" theory I can think of is the one linking Tyrsenian to the Anatolian branch of IE languages.



It was pretty obvious that Rhætic is a Tyrsenian language.

Then why did you say that it is "related" to the Tyrsenian language family?

vettor
05-05-2017, 09:43 PM
99% of these places are not Etruscan areas to begin with. You still have very few numbers. Most of these lineages can be just Bronze-Age migrations. There no historical and archeological proofs of an Etruscan mass-migration, Etruria was already massively inhabited, even by IE speakers. Even the greatest supporters of a migationist theory now only speak of an elite migration, a tiny minority, and there is now a great consensus that Etruscan language was related to the Rhaetic language spoken in the Alps, and their link dates back before the Bronze Age.

J2 in Italy is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas. Among the Etruscan colonies in Campania very few were esclusively Etruscan. The continuity in Campania was between the Villanovan settlements of Campania and the Etruscan cities.

The black in the map is the largest area of ​​influence ever reached, but not everyone in the black area spoke Etruscan as the first language.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Tyrsenian_languages.svg/800px-Tyrsenian_languages.svg.png

The lemnian Stelae is younger in age than etruscan, so clearly it was erected by etruscan traders.

Rhaetic and etruscan association is a fabrication based on one alphabet finding in Belluno Italy ..........Rhaetic along with magre` is a close cousin to Euganei ( proto Venetic )

J2 in Italy is associated with the Sabellic and Sabian peoples of central and south Italy .............they have a south-caucasus association

Larth
05-05-2017, 09:44 PM
None are "dismissed". They merely have not gained acceptance given the non-compelling nature of the evidence put forth to support these theories. The only "dismissed" theory I can think of is the one linking Tyrsenian to the Anatolian branch of IE languages.

Ok, if you prefer, those theories have not gained acceptance. Does it sound better to you?



Then why did you say that it is "related" to the Tyrsenian language family?

Do you like very much to split hairs, right?


The lemnian Stelae is younger in age than etruscan, so clearly it was erected by etruscan traders.

Rhaetic and etruscan association is a fabrication based on one alphabet finding in Belluno Italy ..........Rhaetic along with magre` is a close cousin to Euganei ( proto Venetic )

You always confuse script with the language. There are a lot of scholars who disagree with you. Euganei were probably non-Indoeuropean, moreover.


The term Rhaetic refers to the language and alphabet used in the eastern pre-alpine and alpine district in Northern Italy during the Iron Age (from the 5th to the 1st century B.C.). Overall about 230 inscribed objects have been found, containing about 280 texts. Many of the inscriptions (20%) are tokens or numbers. UThe geographic area where Rhaetic epigraphy has been found includes Trentino, Northern and Southern Tirol, the Engadin Valley and part of northwestern Veneto. The most important epigraphic sites are Sanzeno and Cles in the Non Valley (Trentino), Magrè near Vicenza, San Giorgio in Valpolicella near Verona (Veneto), Sluderno, Settequerce and S. Lorenzo di Sebato (South Tirol). In Austria, some inscriptions come from the district of Innsbruck (Demlfeld, Steinberg am Rofan). The areas of Rhaetic writing fit the archaeological definition both of the Fritzens-Sanzeno culture on one hand and the Magrè culture on the other.

Most Rhaetic inscriptions contain few letters, sometimes written in two or three lines. The inscriptions with the greatest number of letters are the bronze situla (bucket) from Cembra, with 50 letters and the small fish figure of bronze from Sanzeno, with 25 letters. Many texts are unfortunately very fragmentary and full of blanks, so that a thorough understanding of the texts is not yet possible. Since the texts are written in scriptio continua, without spaces between the words, it is a very laborious task to isolate every single word. Most words are attested only once or twice, so that it is sometimes impossible to assign them to a specific word class. In the many instances of proper names, instead, morphological traits have been identified. /p>

Thanks to recent linguistic analysis, the language expressed in the Rhaetic inscriptions is today considered as belonging to a new, non-Indo-European linguistic family, called Common Tyrrhenic, which includes Etruscan and the language of the Island of Lemnos as well.

http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Scrittura&id=63&lang=en



J2 in Italy is associated with the Sabellic and Sabian peoples of central and south Italy .............they have a south-caucasus association

I don't know if this association is valid, but surely J2 is more common in non-Etruscan areas in Italy.

Agamemnon
05-05-2017, 09:49 PM
Ok, if you prefer, those theories have not gained acceptance. Does it sound better to you?

It's not that it "sounds better", it's just a fact. In order to be disproven, you'd have to actually demonstrate that these theories are invalid.



Do you like very much to split hairs, right?

The wording is important here, otherwise you run the risk of confusing people.

Agamemnon
05-05-2017, 10:07 PM
The lemnian Stelae is younger in age than etruscan, so clearly it was erected by etruscan traders.

Rhaetic and etruscan association is a fabrication based on one alphabet finding in Belluno Italy ..........Rhaetic along with magre` is a close cousin to Euganei ( proto Venetic )

J2 in Italy is associated with the Sabellic and Sabian peoples of central and south Italy .............they have a south-caucasus association

Lemnian is most definitely not a dialect of Etruscan, though the two are undeniably related Lemnian is a language of its own. Just because the earliest Etruscan inscriptions predate the Lemnos stele by a hundred years or so does not mean that Lemnian is an Etruscan dialect.

Rhætic could possibly be a mixed language (Etruscan and IE), but again, the evidence is scarce and does not allow us to draw conclusions. It's possible some lineages such as J2a-Z435 were associated with other Italic-speaking peoples (Samnites, Umbrians, etc) and not only Latino-Faliscan, in fact I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:07 PM
Cultural contacts or religious elite.



Dismissed theory. You can relate Etruscan with Hattic, Hurrian but you'll clash with the fact that J2 in Italy is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas.

Tyrsenian language family is related to the Raethic language.

Actually neither, there is more likely a migration.

It is not dismissed, and sure like I said people move around.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:12 PM
None are "dismissed". They merely have not gained acceptance given the non-compelling nature of the evidence put forth to support these theories. The only "dismissed" theory I can think of is the one linking Tyrsenian to the Anatolian branch of IE languages.


Then why did you say that it is "related" to the Tyrsenian language family?

Thank you Aga, I read the theory that tries linking Etruscan to the Alarodian family, I believe the author who wrote it was Ed Robertson it made much sense, you can even see the dna is matching with the area of which the Hurrians lived.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:15 PM
The lemnian Stelae is younger in age than etruscan, so clearly it was erected by etruscan traders.

Rhaetic and etruscan association is a fabrication based on one alphabet finding in Belluno Italy ..........Rhaetic along with magre` is a close cousin to Euganei ( proto Venetic )

J2 in Italy is associated with the Sabellic and Sabian peoples of central and south Italy .............they have a south-caucasus association

Vettor, I wrote which J2 is Italic, you can see I wrote in a previous post, there is principally 4 J2 lineages which can be associated with being absorbed by Indo-Europeans, and I linked it to the Maykop Culture which is exactly the Southern Caucasus. All other J2 has different origins in Italy, and you can see my theories in the same post.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:21 PM
Ok, if you prefer, those theories have not gained acceptance. Does it sound better to you?




Do you like very much to split hairs, right?



You always confuse script with the language. There are a lot of scholars who disagree with you. Euganei were probably non-Indoeuropean, moreover.



http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Scrittura&id=63&lang=en




I don't know if this association is valid, but surely J2 is more common in non-Etruscan areas in Italy.

I don't get why your starting an argument over here, were discussing the possible origins of J2 in Italy, Aga is taking a rational and scientific approach and your bashing him, there is a reason the theory is not dismissed.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:25 PM
Lemnian is most definitely not a dialect of Etruscan, though the two are undeniably related Lemnian is a language of its own. Just because the earliest Etruscan inscriptions predate the Lemnos stele by a hundred years or so does not mean that Lemnian is an Etruscan dialect.

Rhætic could possibly be a mixed language (Etruscan and IE), but again, the evidence is scarce and does not allow us to draw conclusions. It's possible some lineages such as J2a-Z435 were associated with other Italic-speaking peoples (Samnites, Umbrians, etc) and not only Latino-Faliscan, in fact I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case.

Makes perfect sense, and is more or less what my personal research has shown. Thanks for clarifying the Lemnian language and its place in the Tyrsenian language family group.

Larth
05-05-2017, 10:26 PM
The wording is important here, otherwise you run the risk of confusing people.

:lol:


Lemnian is most definitely not a dialect of Etruscan, though the two are undeniably related Lemnian is a language of its own. Just because the earliest Etruscan inscriptions predate the Lemnos stele by a hundred years or so does not mean that Lemnian is a dialect of Etruscan.

Rhætic could possibly be a mixed language (Etruscan and IE), but again, the evidence is scarce and does not allow us to draw conclusions. It's possible some lineages such as J2a-Z435 were associated with other Italic-speaking peoples (Samnites, Umbrians, etc) and not only Latino-Faliscan, in fact I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case.

This is just your opinion. Wording is important here, right?



Actually neither, there is more likely a migration.

It is not dismissed, and sure like I said people move around.

Neither accepted.


Thank you Aga, I read the theory that tries linking Etruscan to the Alarodian family, I believe the author who wrote it was Ed Robertson it made much sense, you can even see the dna is matching with the area of which the Hurrians lived.

Ed Robertosn is not scholar, he is a nice Esperantist, even if he is often cited on wikipedia as source.

Principe
05-05-2017, 10:30 PM
:lol:



This is just your opinion. Wording is important here, right?




Neither accepted.



Ed Robertosn is not scholar, he is a nice Esperantist, even if he is often cited on wikipedia as source.

His work is what is important, he actually was demonstrated the lingual connections between the two, and the reason its not accepted is because of irrational nationalists like you.

Agamemnon
05-05-2017, 10:43 PM
:lol:

I don't know what's so funny about that.


This is just your opinion. Wording is important here, right?


I'm merely stating facts here, not my personal opinion. And yes, the wording is important, you'll notice that I am not making baseless claims, I can easily demonstrate what I'm saying if need be.


His work is what is important, he actually was demonstrated the lingual connections between the two, and the reason its not accepted is because of irrational nationalists like you.

Well, no. The reason such proposals are not accepted is because the evidence put forth to sustain them simply isn't compelling. Nonetheless, he might well be onto something.

Larth
05-05-2017, 11:55 PM
His work is what is important, he actually was demonstrated the lingual connections between the two, and the reason its not accepted is because of irrational nationalists like you.

All what I understand is that wording is important here only when it is in favor of your own ideas. Ed Robertson, in the direction of Nakh-Daghestanian languages, has just tried to rivitalize old theories of Soviet/Post Soviet scholars: Starostin, Orel, Diakonoff. Those theories were born in a nationalist context indeed.

For more than 100 years, scholars from many countries around the world have debated over the Etruscan origins for nationalist purposes. Aleksandr Dmitrievich Chertkov, a Russian academic, said that the Etruscans spoke a Slavic language; Slovenian scholar Jože Škulj that Etruscans, Veneti and Slovenians have a common ancestor. The list is long, ranges from north-east Europe to the Caucasus. In a sense, one can say that the first of this long list was Herodotus.

My English is not impeccable, but I read more than 100 books about the Etruscans. And I, at least so far, was just discussing the J2 that you attributed to the Etruscans. On the rest, I have not read it yet.

Just an example.


(Jože Škulj) What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared 90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans (Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets, but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions ([avli 1996).



I'm merely stating facts here, not my personal opinion. And yes, the wording is important, you'll notice that I am not making baseless claims, I can easily demonstrate what I'm saying if need be..

I'm speechless and in deep admiration.

Agamemnon
05-06-2017, 12:35 AM
All what I understand is that wording is important here only when it is in favor of your own ideas. Ed Robertson, in the direction of Nakh-Daghestanian languages, has just tried to rivitalize old theories of Soviet/Post Soviet scholars: Starostin, Orel, Diakonoff. Those theories were born in a nationalist context indeed.

You'd have a point if you were talking about Nostratic or Dené-Caucasian (Starostin & Orel are familiar names in both cases), in this context not quite.


I'm speechless and in deep admiration.

Well, good for you I guess.

Principe
05-06-2017, 01:25 AM
All what I understand is that wording is important here only when it is in favor of your own ideas. Ed Robertson, in the direction of Nakh-Daghestanian languages, has just tried to rivitalize old theories of Soviet/Post Soviet scholars: Starostin, Orel, Diakonoff. Those theories were born in a nationalist context indeed.

For more than 100 years, scholars from many countries around the world have debated over the Etruscan origins for nationalist purposes. Aleksandr Dmitrievich Chertkov, a Russian academic, said that the Etruscans spoke a Slavic language; Slovenian scholar Jože Škulj that Etruscans, Veneti and Slovenians have a common ancestor. The list is long, ranges from north-east Europe to the Caucasus. In a sense, one can say that the first of this long list was Herodotus.

My English is not impeccable, but I read more than 100 books about the Etruscans. And I, at least so far, was just discussing the J2 that you attributed to the Etruscans. On the rest, I have not read it yet.

Just an example.






I'm speechless and in deep admiration.

There's nothing wrong with your english, considering if its your second or third language its pretty good, the Hurrian connection makes sense, I'm not saying its 100% valid or true, I'm just stating that there is a connection both dna wise and linguistically, from the works of Robertson as an example, which I doubt was nationalistic, he's attempt to connect the two was done in an academic approach, and we see related J2a lines (J2a-L192, J2a-L210 and J2a-M92) in both Armenian and Kurdish Y, which would have absorbed the Hurrian dna, also keep in mind what I said about Haruspicy again this is the area which it came from. Maybe even some G and other lineages as well are associated with it. I would also say all Tyrsenian language speakers carried this Y dna.

vettor
05-06-2017, 06:59 AM
Ok, if you prefer, those theories have not gained acceptance. Does it sound better to you?




Do you like very much to split hairs, right?



You always confuse script with the language. There are a lot of scholars who disagree with you. Euganei were probably non-Indoeuropean, moreover.



http://lila.sns.it/mnamon/index.php?page=Scrittura&id=63&lang=en




I don't know if this association is valid, but surely J2 is more common in non-Etruscan areas in Italy.

The Raeti appear to have learned the art of writing from the Veneti rather than the Etruscans . While Raetic inscriptions are only known from the 5th century onward, at a time when Etruscan inscriptions have appeared in the very North, some features of the Raetic script strongly suggest a Venetic source.
As in Venetic, different alphabet variants are used for writing the Raetic language. Some of the similarities with Venetic can only be demonstrated for the Magrè alphabet, which appears to be close to the Archaic Venetic alphabet, although the use of (somewhat idiosyncratic) syllabic punctuation indicates an acquaintance with a phase 2 Venetic source. It is not yet clear whether or in how far all Raetic alphabet variants are derived from the same model. It cannot be excluded that it used different Venetic varieties.
Linguistically Raetic inscriptions are written in two alphabets. These alphabets differ from each other in the use of graphic variants of a handful of letters, but share certain features which set them apart from the other North Italic alphabets and can therefore be considered typically Raetic. They are traditionally named after the most important find places, i.e. Magrè and Sanzeno.
The areas in which the Magrè and Sanzeno alphabets are used are neatly separated: Magrè-type inscriptions come from the South and the North of the Raetic realm, more precisely the valleys of the Alpine foothills connecting the area of Trento with the Padan plain, and the Wipp, Puster and Inn valleys of North Tyrol plus the Northern Limestone Alps. The Sanzeno alphabet is used in the central area, i.e. the Nonsberg, the upper Etsch valley (including the Unterland and the Vinschgau) and the Eisack valley, with tributary valleys and the surrounding highlands.

Awale
05-06-2017, 07:49 AM
I would also say all Tyrsenian language speakers carried this Y dna.

Do we have any actual Y-DNA on Etruscans and the like? Like... ancient DNA?

Principe
05-06-2017, 04:43 PM
Do we have any actual Y-DNA on Etruscans and the like? Like... ancient DNA?

No ancient DNA of the Etruscans or Tyrsenian speakers has been tested yet, it would be nice, would solve this debate.

Principe
05-07-2017, 11:59 PM
I was taking a look at Anatolian Greek results, to see which specific J2a can be found in Ionian Greek samples, I was able to find J2a-FGC15901 and J2a-SK1336 like I predicted, even J2a-M92 which when looking at the results seem to be under J2a-PF7412 subclade at least a step closer. Though I did not find any J2a-M319.

dominique_nuit
05-09-2017, 05:39 PM
Hello -- This is a fascinating thread -- and though it is not my intention to "derail" the conversation, it has been dormant it seems for about 8 days now

Therefore, maybe we can step back and look at the question of Southern Italy more broadly. There are at least SIX major populations before the Romans in the South =

(1) the hunter-gatherers, presumably haplogroup I2

(2) the Neolithic farmers, haplogroup G2a2 downstream of CTS342

(3) the Italic tribes, in particular Osco-Umbrians & Bruttians -- presumably mostly R1b lineages but perhaps with some absorption of J2a at formation (Maykop culture) or en route

(4) the Etruscans, primarily in Tuscany but with some presence stretching down to Campania

(5) Greek colonizers, presumably J2a-centered

(6) Phonenicians, presumably J1-centered???

Perhaps I am a G2a2 chauvinist, but doesn't it seem likely that the Tyrsenian languages were Neolithic in origin?

Also, with regard to the South and Calabria in particular, could we theorize that the Oenotrians & Ausonians were G2a2 and Tyrsenian-speakers? Whereas the Oscans & Bruttians were IE-peoples?

vettor
05-09-2017, 05:58 PM
Hello -- This is a fascinating thread -- and though it is not my intention to "derail" the conversation, it has been dormant it seems for about 8 days now

Therefore, maybe we can step back and look at the question of Southern Italy more broadly. There are at least SIX major populations before the Romans in the South =

(1) the hunter-gatherers, presumably haplogroup I2

(2) the Neolithic farmers, haplogroup G2a2 downstream of CTS342

(3) the Italic tribes, in particular Osco-Umbrians & Bruttians -- presumably mostly R1b lineages but perhaps with some absorption of J2a at formation (Maykop culture) or en route

(4) the Etruscans, primarily in Tuscany but with some presence stretching down to Campania

(5) Greek colonizers, presumably J2a-centered

(6) Phonenicians, presumably J1-centered???

Perhaps I am a G2a2 chauvinist, but doesn't it seem likely that the Tyrsenian languages were Neolithic in origin?

Also, with regard to the South and Calabria in particular, could we theorize that the Oenotrians & Ausonians were G2a2 and Tyrsenian-speakers? Whereas the Oscans & Bruttians were IE-peoples?

you have also a high % ( some say 20) of T1a1 from central italy on the adriatic side which are said to be associated with the ancient sabellic/sabines people...........my guess is that because they are inter mingled with J2 in the area , then both must have come from south-caucasus lands ........pre roman or pre etruscan times

BMK
05-09-2017, 06:14 PM
Hello -- This is a fascinating thread -- and though it is not my intention to "derail" the conversation, it has been dormant it seems for about 8 days now

Therefore, maybe we can step back and look at the question of Southern Italy more broadly. There are at least SIX major populations before the Romans in the South =

(1) the hunter-gatherers, presumably haplogroup I2

(2) the Neolithic farmers, haplogroup G2a2 downstream of CTS342

(3) the Italic tribes, in particular Osco-Umbrians & Bruttians -- presumably mostly R1b lineages but perhaps with some absorption of J2a at formation (Maykop culture) or en route

(4) the Etruscans, primarily in Tuscany but with some presence stretching down to Campania

(5) Greek colonizers, presumably J2a-centered

(6) Phonenicians, presumably J1-centered???

Perhaps I am a G2a2 chauvinist, but doesn't it seem likely that the Tyrsenian languages were Neolithic in origin?

Also, with regard to the South and Calabria in particular, could we theorize that the Oenotrians & Ausonians were G2a2 and Tyrsenian-speakers? Whereas the Oscans & Bruttians were IE-peoples?

:bounce:

J Man
05-09-2017, 06:28 PM
Is there a specific country in the Arab world where you get most of your matches? Or region that can help?!

Saudi Arabia. If you want to call them ``matches``.

vettor
05-09-2017, 06:43 PM
Saudi Arabia. If you want to call them ``matches``.

one needs to check YFull for suadi arabians for J2 and see the age of the marker there............my guess is that it is young

Larth
05-09-2017, 06:44 PM
No ancient DNA of the Etruscans or Tyrsenian speakers has been tested yet, it would be nice, would solve this debate.

We don't have Y-DNA, but ancient Etruscans have been tested. For example we have an autosomal PCA. One Etruscan individual is in the modern Iberian cluster (IBS), another one is between modern Tuscans (TSI) and modern Iberians (IBS), and a third Etruscan is more north-eastern shifted than modern Tuscans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/05/2500-year-old-etruscans.html

I have also another PCA from an Italian paper not published yet. I will later post it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rfyRUeQKSE/VUp1FtC48DI/AAAAAAAAKE0/aprJv89-94k/s1600/etruscans.jpg

Principe
05-09-2017, 08:58 PM
Saudi Arabia. If you want to call them ``matches``.

Are they only Y12 matches? Or do you have matches at higher levels with Saudi Arabians?

J Man
05-09-2017, 09:02 PM
Are they only Y12 matches? Or do you have matches at higher levels with Saudi Arabians?

At 111 markers the closest of these Arab men is a marker mismatch of 19 with me.

Principe
05-09-2017, 09:10 PM
Hello -- This is a fascinating thread -- and though it is not my intention to "derail" the conversation, it has been dormant it seems for about 8 days now

Therefore, maybe we can step back and look at the question of Southern Italy more broadly. There are at least SIX major populations before the Romans in the South =

(1) the hunter-gatherers, presumably haplogroup I2

(2) the Neolithic farmers, haplogroup G2a2 downstream of CTS342

(3) the Italic tribes, in particular Osco-Umbrians & Bruttians -- presumably mostly R1b lineages but perhaps with some absorption of J2a at formation (Maykop culture) or en route

(4) the Etruscans, primarily in Tuscany but with some presence stretching down to Campania

(5) Greek colonizers, presumably J2a-centered

(6) Phonenicians, presumably J1-centered???

Perhaps I am a G2a2 chauvinist, but doesn't it seem likely that the Tyrsenian languages were Neolithic in origin?

Also, with regard to the South and Calabria in particular, could we theorize that the Oenotrians & Ausonians were G2a2 and Tyrsenian-speakers? Whereas the Oscans & Bruttians were IE-peoples?

More or less what you said, Phoenicians would have also carried J2 and E for sure. In terms of Greek colonizers it depends which areas, J2a lineages might have the principle lineages amongst Ionic, Arcadian, Achaean and Cretan/Rhodes versus Northwestern and Doric Greeks would have been lower in J2a in my opinion, they would have been more J2b, I2, E-V13, and R1b-PF7562 rich, while also I can G-M406 and R1b-Z2103 coming in with J2a lineages.

I don't think the Tysenian languages were Neolithic in origin, more Bronze Age related, but haplogroup G would have been involved I think, which ever lines were not Neolithic farmers in my opinion probably spread with J2a later.

I don't know much about the Ausonians, but the Oenotrians I would think personally have a better chance of being Tyrsenian speakers, and yes Bruttians and Oscans would have been IE-peoples.

Principe
05-09-2017, 09:13 PM
At 111 markers the closest of these Arab men is a marker mismatch of 19 with me.

Did this person do a BigY? You split less than 3000 years with your Arab matches in my opinion, that's just based off your str, it also depends which of these markers you have a difference, like CDY A and B pretty ignorable but having let's say DYS14, DYS393 and like DYS464 a through b than it could be further back the relation.

Principe
05-09-2017, 09:15 PM
one needs to check YFull for suadi arabians for J2 and see the age of the marker there............my guess is that it is young

J2 has an been in the Middle East quite old.

Principe
05-09-2017, 09:19 PM
We don't have Y-DNA, but ancient Etruscans have been tested. For example we have an autosomal PCA. One Etruscan individual is in the modern Iberian cluster (IBS), another one is between modern Tuscans (TSI) and modern Iberians (IBS), and a third Etruscan is more north-eastern shifted than modern Tuscans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2015/05/2500-year-old-etruscans.html

I have also another PCA from an Italian paper not published yet. I will later post it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1rfyRUeQKSE/VUp1FtC48DI/AAAAAAAAKE0/aprJv89-94k/s1600/etruscans.jpg

Sure would like to see that PCA, and let me just clear something, I am not saying Etruscans were a complete foreign entity in Italy, what the Etruscans were in my opinion recent Middle Eastern Migrants that mixed with Villanovans, the language and religion were foreign, there was some foreign dna in Etruscans to what extant we cannot know, those three Etruscans could have been locals who lived in Etruscan cities, who adopted Etruscan life and culture. To me there's no doubt it was a fusion.

dominique_nuit
05-10-2017, 03:10 AM
you have also a high % ( some say 20) of T1a1 from central italy on the adriatic side which are said to be associated with the ancient sabellic/sabines people...........my guess is that because they are inter mingled with J2 in the area , then both must have come from south-caucasus lands ........pre roman or pre etruscan times

The difficulty is that the Sabines were Oscan-speakers, and Oscan is an IE language. And by "difficulty," I mean a MAJOR difficulty. That is, the Neolithic G2a2 people of Italy are generally held to have retreated to, or stayed in, mountainous areas. And yet the Oscan-speaking Sabines also appear to have been a mountainous people, they were in the Apennines. Therefore, we are left with three basic scenarios:

#1 -- prior to Romanization of Italy, the R1b IE-Speakers had already merged with indigenous G2a2 peoples to form the Sabines & related "Italic" tribes-- and other T1a1 and J2a peoples were also absorbed --- in other words, the ETHNOGENESIS of the ITALIAN PEOPLE was already in an advanced stage circa 1000 BC

#2 -- the Oscan-speaking Sabines occupied the Apennines SEPARATELY & AT ODDS with indigenous G2a2 peoples /// in this scenario, T1a1 and J2a peoples would have been absorbed by IE-peoples EN ROUTE to Italy

#3 -- and this is the RADICAL THESIS -- a PRE-proto-IE language was brought to Italy by J2a peoples at the dawn of the Bronze Age by the ANATOLIAN ROUTE per Colin Renfrew -- and this branch of IE evolved in isolation from other IE languages into the ITALIC TONGUES -----> however, I know nothing about linguistics, and I am not sure how this thesis would be treated by experts in the field ---> and yet, how much Osco-Umbrian script actually survives for analysis?

#3a - and this is a RADICALIZATION of the #3 thesis -- a very primitive version of proto-IE was carried from Anatolia by the G2a2 Neolithic settlers, which is to say, the Oenotrians and other G2a2 peoples evolved into the Osco-Umbrian peoples, and later emigrants from Anatolia were also primitive IE speakers, and as such (relatively) easily absorbed into the emerging Italic groups

J Man
05-10-2017, 03:20 AM
Did this person do a BigY? You split less than 3000 years with your Arab matches in my opinion, that's just based off your str, it also depends which of these markers you have a difference, like CDY A and B pretty ignorable but having let's say DYS14, DYS393 and like DYS464 a through b than it could be further back the relation.

His BigY test is actually being done right now. It will be interesting to see his results once they come in and compare them to my YFull results.

dominique_nuit
05-10-2017, 06:40 AM
I don't think the Tysenian languages were Neolithic in origin, more Bronze Age related, but haplogroup G would have been involved I think, which ever lines were not Neolithic farmers in my opinion probably spread with J2a later.

Why not hypothesize a proto-Tyrsenian/proto-Kartvelian language in Anatolia/Armenia prior to the diffusion of G2a2? ----> the G2a2 peoples that migrate to Caucasus develop the Kartvelian languages today found in Georgia ------> the G2a2 that migrates to West Mediterranean become speakers of diverse Tyrsenian languages, including Raetian, Etruscan, languages of Sardinia, probably Balearic Isles and eastern Iberia, and Calabria


I don't know much about the Ausonians, but the Oenotrians I would think personally have a better chance of being Tyrsenian speakers, and yes Bruttians and Oscans would have been IE-peoples.

I imagine the Oenotrians as inhabitants of the area south of Lucania. My sense from my admittedly limited readings of the history is that there was 3-way warfare circa 500 BC among (1) Greeks along the coast-lines, (2) Oscan-speaking IE-peoples heading south along the Apennines, and (3) indigenous Oenotrians who were likely Tyrsenian-speaking G2a2-peoples

The other possibility is that the Oenotrians were absorbed into the Oscan group at a much earlier date

Principe
05-11-2017, 02:52 AM
Why not hypothesize a proto-Tyrsenian/proto-Kartvelian language in Anatolia/Armenia prior to the diffusion of G2a2? ----> the G2a2 peoples that migrate to Caucasus develop the Kartvelian languages today found in Georgia ------> the G2a2 that migrates to West Mediterranean become speakers of diverse Tyrsenian languages, including Raetian, Etruscan, languages of Sardinia, probably Balearic Isles and eastern Iberia, and Calabria



I imagine the Oenotrians as inhabitants of the area south of Lucania. My sense from my admittedly limited readings of the history is that there was 3-way warfare circa 500 BC among (1) Greeks along the coast-lines, (2) Oscan-speaking IE-peoples heading south along the Apennines, and (3) indigenous Oenotrians who were likely Tyrsenian-speaking G2a2-peoples

The other possibility is that the Oenotrians were absorbed into the Oscan group at a much earlier date

Your ideas are very plausible, I would wait until we get some Minoan Y DNA to make a final statement on this, but it does look like G2a2 and I2a were busy during the Neolithic period.

Padre Organtino
05-14-2017, 02:53 PM
Why not hypothesize a proto-Tyrsenian/proto-Kartvelian language in Anatolia/Armenia prior to the diffusion of G2a2? ----> the G2a2 peoples that migrate to Caucasus develop the Kartvelian languages today found in Georgia ------> the G2a2 that migrates to West Mediterranean become speakers of diverse Tyrsenian languages, including Raetian, Etruscan, languages of Sardinia, probably Balearic Isles and eastern Iberia, and Calabria



I imagine the Oenotrians as inhabitants of the area south of Lucania. My sense from my admittedly limited readings of the history is that there was 3-way warfare circa 500 BC among (1) Greeks along the coast-lines, (2) Oscan-speaking IE-peoples heading south along the Apennines, and (3) indigenous Oenotrians who were likely Tyrsenian-speaking G2a2-peoples

The other possibility is that the Oenotrians were absorbed into the Oscan group at a much earlier date

Cool idea except Kartvelian branch of G2a is kinda very removed from European ones in time (split happened like 9 thousand years ago AFAIK)

So we would need the existence of some kind of deep macro family like Afroasiatic for that to be true. Think this is unlikely

Ebizur
05-14-2017, 03:21 PM
Cool idea except Kartvelian branch of G2a is kinda very removed from European ones in time (split happened like 9 thousand years ago AFAIK)

So we would need the existence of some kind of deep macro family like Afroasiatic for that to be true. Think this is unlikelyCould you inform me which branch of G2a is considered to be the "Kartvelian branch"? I see six G2a samples from Georgia on the current version of the YFull tree, which belong to five different clades that do not coalesce to a common ancestor more recent than that of G-P15 as a whole (TMRCA 18,100 ybp).

Larth
05-14-2017, 09:45 PM
I've heard of at least one Italian linguist (Antonio Sciarretta) who classified Sicanian as IE and proposed a genetic relationship with Ligurian, I am not saying that I support this (as a rule of thumb, I tend to take what Italian linguists say with a grain of salt). But that's above the point, which is that the data is too scarce to make any firm pronouncement on the classification of these languages.

If you have to judge a whole category, at least check if he is a true Italian linguist. :) Is there any Italian linguist named Antonio Sciaretta?

The only Antonio Sciarretta I've found is an engineer from Abruzzo passionate about linguistics as a hobby, with some publications especially on ancient toponomastics. He has been a researcher at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, but it is a department of engineering.

Unfortunately, there have been few inscriptions of the Sicanian language. But the connection between the Sicanian language and the ancient Ligurian is old (Varvaro, Alessio, Schmoll...), based mainly on a toponymic comparison, it is certainly not a hypothesis of Sciarretta.

Agamemnon
05-14-2017, 09:54 PM
If you have to judge a whole category, at least check if he is a true Italian linguist. :) Is there any Italian linguist named Antonio Sciaretta?

The only Antonio Sciarretta I've found is an engineer from Abruzzo passionate about linguistics as a hobby, with some publications especially on ancient toponomastics. He has been a researcher at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, but it is a department of engineering.

Unfortunately, there have been few inscriptions of the Sicanian language. But the connection between the Sicanian language and the ancient Ligurian is old (Varvaro, Alessio, Schmoll...), based mainly on a toponymic comparison, it is certainly not a hypothesis of Sciarretta.

He's far more credible than established linguists like Mario Alinei, that's for a start.

Larth
05-14-2017, 09:58 PM
He's far more credible than established linguists like Mario Alinei, that's for a start.

Mario Alinei was a professor at Utrecht University, send your grievances to the Dutch university system (I personally find Alinei's theories very ridiculous). :)

Agamemnon
05-14-2017, 10:25 PM
Mario Alinei was a professor at Utrecht University, send your grievances to the Dutch university system (I personally find Alinei's theories very ridiculous). :)

He has a large following among Italian linguists, but that's above the point really, I could come up with other examples. Experience has taught me to take what Italian linguists say with a grain of salt (same thing for the Muscovite school, mind you), personally I have nothing against Italians (far from it).

Larth
05-14-2017, 11:02 PM
He has a large following among Italian linguists, but that's above the point really, I could come up with other examples. Experience has taught me to take what Italian linguists say with a grain of salt (same thing for the Muscovite school, mind you), personally I have nothing against Italians (far from it).

Well, maybe a following among Italian amateur linguists, from an academic point of view he is respected because he is an old man, but Alinei's theories aren't accepted by most of the Italian linguists (and most of the linguists in the world, I'd say). I never read enthusiastic about his work. And it could not be different, given the huge distortions in his work.

Then, having practically never taught in Italy, Alinei never even had an academic following in Italy. If his work has been read it's due to xenophilia, because he has taught in one of the most important Dutch universities.

On the other hand, Italian linguists are divided on everything, like the anthropologists and historians (who are both producing almost or nothing). The only ones who have been together for a long time are archaeologists, but this more in the past. The truth is that Italy is not producing much anymore, like the Muscovite school. Among the few noteworthy works is the one on the Raetic language (The Demlfeld plate, De Simone and Marchesini).

vettor
05-15-2017, 06:25 AM
Mario Alinei was a professor at Utrecht University, send your grievances to the Dutch university system (I personally find Alinei's theories very ridiculous). :)

I agree..............his theory that genetics corresponds to languages in all facets is ridiculous

if we take the area of the north levant as an example...............
late bronze age it was Luwian ...a IE language

~1000BC it became land of the phoenicians ...a semitic people

the phoenician alphabet was introduced to the Greek Euboean people and is the foundation of alphabets used by western languages today .............how can one even contemplate that this mishmash of languages can be reflected by changes of genetics..........clearly the logical approach is that the remaining luwian populace where absorbed into phoenicians society along with their IE language and a proto-luwian/semetic form of language developed, over time , this language infested the lands where phoenicians had colonies. Where does the genetics come via this ?

Padre Organtino
05-29-2017, 05:19 PM
Could you inform me which branch of G2a is considered to be the "Kartvelian branch"? I see six G2a samples from Georgia on the current version of the YFull tree, which belong to five different clades that do not coalesce to a common ancestor more recent than that of G-P15 as a whole (TMRCA 18,100 ybp).

G2a1a branch shared with Ossetians

Principe
06-01-2017, 05:29 PM
I think now with the results of Bronze Age Sidon and the Egyptian Mummies it is safe to say that J2b-M205 in Sicily is of Levantine/Middle Eastern origin.

Sikeliot
06-01-2017, 05:43 PM
I think now with the results of Bronze Age Sidon and the Egyptian Mummies it is safe to say that J2b-M205 in Sicily is of Levantine/Middle Eastern origin.


Where on the island is that subclade common?

Principe
06-01-2017, 05:49 PM
Where on the island is that subclade common?

I think it's pretty spread out, right now I don't have access to my written notes, I remember seeing in Enna and Trapani.

gdl
07-23-2017, 11:31 AM
Hi,
I came to the whole genetic thingh, because I'm very interested in genealogy and started looking for my "half-unknown" grandfather. My paternal grandmother is from eastern Sicily and was married with a man from the mainland, from Bari, but because this men moved to America 4-6 years before my father was born he can't be my grandfather even if he is officially my grandfather and I have his surname. My y-dna haplogroup is J-M67 (23andme)
and on WeGene it says J2a1b, what should be the same. Now does that mean that my grandfather might be possibly Sicilian with greek heritage? Is it possible to say with what probability he came from Sicily, and if yes where is this haplogroup mostly found. My grandmother is from Catania, so he could be from there somewhere, too. Because by my italian relatives on 23andme I can tell that everybody has sicilian heritage, not from the mainland.
Thank you,

gdl

Sikeliot
07-23-2017, 12:47 PM
Hi,
I came to the whole genetic thingh, because I'm very interested in genealogy and started looking for my "half-unknown" grandfather. My paternal grandmother is from eastern Sicily and was married with a man from the mainland, from Bari, but because this men moved to America 4-6 years before my father was born he can't be my grandfather even if he is officially my grandfather and I have his surname. My y-dna haplogroup is J-M67 (23andme)
and on WeGene it says J2a1b, what should be the same. Now does that mean that my grandfather might be possibly Sicilian with greek heritage? Is it possible to say with what probability he came from Sicily, and if yes where is this haplogroup mostly found. My grandmother is from Catania, so he could be from there somewhere, too. Because by my italian relatives on 23andme I can tell that everybody has sicilian heritage, not from the mainland.
Thank you,

gdl


Greek heritage in Sicily is best measured by haplogroup E1b1b, because while almost every invading group in Sicily save some Germanic tribes would have carried J2, not all carried E1b (which would be either Greek or Arbereshe most likely).

Principe
07-23-2017, 05:15 PM
Hi,
I came to the whole genetic thingh, because I'm very interested in genealogy and started looking for my "half-unknown" grandfather. My paternal grandmother is from eastern Sicily and was married with a man from the mainland, from Bari, but because this men moved to America 4-6 years before my father was born he can't be my grandfather even if he is officially my grandfather and I have his surname. My y-dna haplogroup is J-M67 (23andme)
and on WeGene it says J2a1b, what should be the same. Now does that mean that my grandfather might be possibly Sicilian with greek heritage? Is it possible to say with what probability he came from Sicily, and if yes where is this haplogroup mostly found. My grandmother is from Catania, so he could be from there somewhere, too. Because by my italian relatives on 23andme I can tell that everybody has sicilian heritage, not from the mainland.
Thank you,

gdl

gdl,

In terms of your Grandfather's line being of Greek heritage it is a possibility, as many Greeks settled in Eastern Sicily during antiquity, Catania being one of the largest cities of Magna Graecia, do you know the particular village where your grandmother came from? As there is some people on ftdna who tested from the surrounding area which are under J-M67 subclades, including one very deep tested SK1336 which would be M67>Z467>S25258>SK1336 this lineage at the moment is a good candidate for ancient Greek line, as for another J-M67 lineage found not far from Catania would be M92, which would be M67>Z500>M92 not as deep tested unfortunately. If you are really interested in learning more about your Y-line, I would suggest transferring your results to ftdna and buying a Y25 or Y37 str test to see more or less which lineage you belong too or take the M67 package that would probably be the best option, there are other M67's lineages as well that you can belong too, the first two are the ones I suggest based on what seems more likely based on current results from the proximity of your area. It would seem unlikely based on the timing that your grandfather is Barese, but one thing Puglia is one of the least tested regions of Italy. If you got more questions, just ask away!

Principe

Principe
09-21-2018, 09:19 PM
Just a quick update and this includes all of Italy

On ftdna there are 358 Italians in the J2 project which is actually good enough to be equivalent to a scientific paper to get an accurate analysis

Anyways I'll base it on para subclades per frequency

1. J2a-L70, n=61
2. J2a-M92, n=51
3. J2b-L283, n=37
4. J2a2-PF5008, n=28
5. J2a-S25258 (Z6271 & SK1337), n=20
6. J2a-M319, n=18
7. J2a-Z7700, n=17
8. J2a-L210, n=14
9. J2a-PF5191, n=14
10. J2a-YP879, n=13
11. J2a-Z6048, n=13
12. J2a-Z7671, n=10
13. J2a-FGC35503, n=9
14. J2a-Z6057, n=7
15. J2b-M205, n=6
16. J2a-Y6240, n=5
17. J2a-PF4888, n=5
18. J2a-PF5172, n=4
19. J2a-Y8378, n=3
20. J2a-M47, n=2

There are 21 that are hard to place based on the off str's

L70 and M92 are by far the most common J2's in Italy, L70 is triple as common as the 5th most common branch and M92 more than double.

Kanenas
09-21-2018, 10:21 PM
The Greek sources consider Sicanians to have been 'Iberians', Elymians to have been 'Trojans', Sicels to have been from mainland Italy, not necessarily Italic but it seems theoretically possible.

If we assume that is broadly correct (it can be wrong ofc) there are at least 3 movements from Iberia, mainland Italy and NW Anatolia.

I have considered the possibility that the Sicanians were the descendants of Beaker culture in Sicily. And Elymians moved during or a little after the 'Bronze Age collapse'.

Either way, that is based on ancient sources which can be wrong but I it seems possible to me that there were 3 separate movements of distinct populations to Sicily before the known later movements.

Sikeliot
09-21-2018, 10:59 PM
The Greek sources consider Sicanians to have been 'Iberians', Elymians to have been 'Trojans', Sicels to have been from mainland Italy, not necessarily Italic but it seems theoretically possible.

If we assume that is broadly correct (it can be wrong ofc) there are at least 3 movements from Iberia, mainland Italy and NW Anatolia.

I have considered the possibility that the Sicanians were the descendants of Beaker culture in Sicily. And Elymians moved during or a little after the 'Bronze Age collapse'.

Either way, that is based on ancient sources which can be wrong but I it seems possible to me that there were 3 separate movements of distinct populations to Sicily before the known later movements.

Sicanians were obviously not Iberians. There are only very limited Iberian haplogroups in Sicily, and the Bell Beaker Sicilian sample we have, has too much Near Eastern input already to have been an Iberian descendant. My guess is Sicanians were more similar to Mycenaeans or Minoans but with a greater Sardinian shift, based on the Bell Beaker sample.

Knowledge of the Elymian language is limited but evidence we have, suggests links to Trojan and Hittite. Sicel was likely Italic, yes.

AntonK
10-16-2018, 05:31 PM
There is a paper in Nature relevant to this thread. It is called: "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean." Because I can't post links you'll have to Google it. :)

Asante
02-05-2019, 12:18 AM
That hapologroup in southern Europeans is most likely associated with the 800 Moorish (African and Semitic Arabs) occupation of the region.

Asante
02-05-2019, 12:19 AM
I agree..............his theory that genetics corresponds to languages in all facets is ridiculous

if we take the area of the north levant as an example...............
late bronze age it was Luwian ...a IE language

~1000BC it became land of the phoenicians ...a semitic people

the phoenician alphabet was introduced to the Greek Euboean people and is the foundation of alphabets used by western languages today .............how can one even contemplate that this mishmash of languages can be reflected by changes of genetics..........clearly the logical approach is that the remaining luwian populace where absorbed into phoenicians society along with their IE language and a proto-luwian/semetic form of language developed, over time , this language infested the lands where phoenicians had colonies. Where does the genetics come via this ?

Great points!

J Man
02-05-2019, 03:28 PM
That hapologroup in southern Europeans is most likely associated with the 800 Moorish (African and Semitic Arabs) occupation of the region.

Which haplogroup are you talking about exactly?