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Tresyl
06-29-2013, 01:27 PM
Hello all,
Any H18 or someone from the community that could give some info on this unfrequent haplogroup? It seems that H18 originated in the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula?)

Rathna
06-29-2013, 05:04 PM
Hello all,
Any H18 or someone from the community that could give some info on this unfrequent haplogroup? It seems that H18 originated in the Middle East (Arabian Peninsula?)

From the samples present in "Ian Logan spreadsheet" doesn't seem that its origin is in the Near East:
1. AY495116(European) Coble H18 07-JAN-2008 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G G4048A A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
2. EF657723 mtDNA542(Europe) Herrnstadt H18 14-JUL-2007 A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G
3. EF660997(Italy) Gasparre (INCOMPLETE) H18 04-JUL-2007 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G C10870T G13708A G14364A T15209C A15326G T16519C
4. HM852833(Iranian37) Schoenberg H18 17-MAR-2011 T60A G85A A263G A750G A1438G A4769G G7598A A8860G G13708A A15326G T16519C
5. JQ701918 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C 523.1C 523.2A A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A T14992C A15326G T16519C
6. JQ702305 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G C2393T A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A C14574T A15326G T16519C
7. JQ703531(Netherlands) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16209C T16519C
8. JQ704205(Netherlands) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G T2638C A4769G A8860G A13105G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
9. JQ704344 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G11719A C13515T G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
10. JQ704443(France) Behar H18 07-APR-2012 A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
11. JQ705490 Behar H18 07-APR-2012 C150T A263G 309.1C 309.2C 315.1C G709A A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G G13708A G14198A G14364A A15326G T16519C
- 23andMe ('atelepen') H18 194T 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 15326G 16519C

Rathna
06-29-2013, 05:17 PM
Nor the samples used by Behar 2012b:

Haplogroup,"h18"
SampleId,"NCBI Id","Results Verified","Unresolved Options","Partial Descendents","Private Mutations","Topologically Missing","Country","Geography","Ancestry","Reference","Contact"
MC360,"JQ701918","1","","","T14992C ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC747,"JQ702305","1","","","C2393T C14574T ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC1373,"","1","","","315.1C 522.1A 522.2C","","Germany","","","",""
MC1973,"JQ703531","1","","","T16209C ,",Netherlands","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2647,"JQ704205","1","","","T2638C ,G13105A(L2'3'4'6) ","Netherlands","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2786,"JQ704344","1","","","C13515T ,A11719G(R0) ","","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC2885,"JQ704443","1","","","","","France","","","Behar 2012b",""
MC3932,"JQ705490","1","","","C150T G709A G14198A ,",",",",Behar 2012b",""
MC14491,"AY495116","1","","","G4048A ,",",",",Coble 2004",""

Rathna
06-29-2013, 05:32 PM
The Iranian sample of the "Ian Logan Spreadsheet", lacking G14364A, isn't H18:

4. HM852833(Iranian37) Schoenberg H18 17-MAR-2011 T60A G85A A263G A750G A1438G A4769G G7598A A8860G G13708A A15326G T16519C

GailT
06-29-2013, 07:14 PM
The Iranian sample of the "Ian Logan Spreadsheet", lacking G14364A, isn't H18

This sample could be ancestral to H18 which would make it more useful for identifying the geographic origin of H18. There is also an H18 sample in the FTDNA project from Turkey. I think an origin of H18 in the Near East seems likely, although we need a much larger sample size to be confident.

Rathna
06-29-2013, 10:49 PM
In the mtDNA haplotree of Behar 2012b, G13708A has mutated 33 times, G14364A only 6, then statistically I'd say that the Iranian sample probably isn't the ancestor of H18, but of course I agree with you that we need more samples, but you should see that the H haplotypes are much more in Europe than in Middle East. How many samples do you need for dismissing your prejudices? It seems that neither Mr. Greenspan is so sure of his:

Haplogroups ... can tell us a lot about our most distant ancestors and even give us an idea of 'when' our ancestors became Jews. As romantic as it is to presume that all of our ancestors stood at Mt. Sinai waiting for Moses to reappear, in truth only some of our ancestors were Jews 3200 years ago--Haplogroups can give us instant clues of when and perhaps where our ancestors joined the Jewish people. The lecture will deal primarily on Ashkenazim, both males and females.

Rathna
06-30-2013, 12:40 PM
H18 3309.6 3665.7

This is the age that Behar 2012b assigns to this haplogroup.

The Iranian sample has 3 mutations that the European ones haven’t: T60A, G85A and G7598A and hasn’t 2 mutations that all the European ones have: 315.1C and G14364A, then 5 mutations and 2 in the Coding Region.
They would have in common only G13708A.

All this doesn’t fit neither with the Behar’s age nor with the logic.

You wasn’t so open about my mutation in H26, and it is much rarer than G13708A.
This is the prejudice: to be biased in one’s judgement!

GailT
06-30-2013, 11:40 PM
In the mtDNA haplotree of Behar 2012b, G13708A has mutated 33 times, G14364A only 6, then statistically I'd say that the Iranian sample probably isn't the ancestor of H18

Yes, I think you are correct, and I will exclude both HM852833 and HM765461 from H18, and I'll recalculate the age estimate using only the H18 samples in GenBank and the FTDNA project. Can you remind me what the issue was with H26? I'm happy to correct any mistakes, and I welcome any critical comments on the mtDNA haplogroup analysis.

thanks,
Gail

GailT
07-01-2013, 12:18 AM
I have 10 FMS results for H18, and only six with known ancestry: 2 from Netherlands, and one each from UK, France, Italy, and Turkey. The average number of mutations is 1.5 over the full genome, which gives me an age estimate of about 4000 ybp using the Soares method.

I'd like to see a much larger sample size. There are at least 20 more people who tested as H18 at FTDNA but have not shared their results. We have a very large oversampling bias from Europe, especially northwestern Europe. So the fact that 3 of the samples are from France, Italy and Turkey might suggest an origin of H18 in southern Europe or the Mediterranean region around 4000 years ago.

Rathna
07-01-2013, 06:42 AM
Can you remind me what the issue was with H26?


I spoke erroneously of hg. H26, because I wrote about it too, but the hg. is that erroneously labelled H13a1. See eng.molgen, Another mtDNA H from the Italian Refugium?

"I said that the mutations A11069G is so rare that it would be astonishingly that it were happened twice only in hg. H".

GailT
07-02-2013, 03:40 AM
Yes, we still have just the three A11069G samples, the Italian and Swede/Finn with 3 additional shared mutations, and another Italian who only shares A11069G with the other two. It's clear that there is considerable diversity of H in Italy. I have not tried to quantify the diversity compared to other regions, nor tried to normalize for sample size.

If H arrived in Italy during the early Neolithic, that allows considerable time for some of these very rare H* lineages to have developed in Italy and then spread from there. We have nearly 100 very rare named H subclades and un-named H* lineages, many represented by a single sample, and we continue to find new ones as more people test. I think that we can conclude that H experienced explosive population growth during the Neolithic, that many H subclades arose in the Near East, or shortly after the expansion of farmers from the Near East into Europe. There might be other possibilities as well, including arrival of some H in southern Europe during the Mesolithic. I think the actual migrations might be more complex than we can reconstruct, and I'm very open to changing my opinions when we get larger sample sizes, especially from under sampled regions, and more ancient mtDNA.

Tresyl
07-04-2013, 11:42 AM
My H18 results:

Extra Mutations
T199C
309.1C
315.1C
522.1A
522.2C
T10604C

Missing Mutations
G13105A


RSRS values:

HVR1 DIFFERENCES FROM RSRS
A16129G
T16187C
C16189T
T16223C
G16230A
T16278C
C16311T

HVR2 DIFFERENCES FROM RSRS
G73A
C146T
C152T
C195T
T199C
A247G
309.1C
315.1C
522.1A
522.2C

CODING REGION DIFFERENCES FROM RSRS
A769G
A825t
A1018G
G2706A
A2758G
C2885T
T3594C
G4104A
T4312C
T7028C
G7146A
T7256C
A7521G
T8468C
T8655C
G8701A
C9540T
G10398A
T10604C
T10664C
A10688G
C10810T
C10873T
C10915T
A11719G
A11914G
T12705C
G13276A
T13506C
T13650C
G13708A
G14364A
T14766C

GailT
07-04-2013, 03:04 PM
Tresyl - have you joined the FTDNA H and H-Discovery projects? If you join the project and check the box to share the CR results with the project admin, I can compare you to other people in H18.

Gail

My H18 results:

Extra Mutations
T199C
309.1C
315.1C
522.1A
522.2C
T10604C

Missing Mutations
G13105A

Rathna
07-04-2013, 03:35 PM
It isn't easy to understand these RSRS data, but you could verify if your data as to rCRS are these:

T199C 309.1C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G T2638C A4769G A8860G T10604C A13105G G13708A G14364A A15326G

In this case the closest to you should be this sample from Netherland:
JQ704205 Behar Haplogroup [H18] 07-APR-2012
A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G T2638C A4769G A8860G A13105G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C
for its mutation A13105G even though you differ for T199C, T10604C, C16519T

Then an European sample and a proof more that this haplogroup is European.

Tresyl
07-05-2013, 01:18 PM
GailT, I'm member of the H & HV project and checked the box to share my results with the project admin. My kit number is 133712

Tresyl
07-05-2013, 01:26 PM
Rathna, my rCRS data is indeed close to the Netherland sample:


HVR1 DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
16519C

HVR2 DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
199C
263G
309.1C
315.1C

CODING REGION DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
750G
1438G
4769G
8860G
10604C
13105G
13708A
14364A
15326G

Rathna
07-05-2013, 02:43 PM
Rathna, my rCRS data is indeed close to the Netherland sample:


HVR1 DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
16519C

HVR2 DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
199C
263G
309.1C
315.1C

CODING REGION DIFFERENCES FROM rCRS
750G
1438G
4769G
8860G
10604C
13105G
13708A
14364A
15326G

Thanks. Then you have 16519 C and not T, then you match more the sample from Netherland, but of course the back mutation in 13105 is the most coercive.

16519C is a mutation in rCRS but not in RSRS. From this a little confusion.

GailT
07-05-2013, 05:47 PM
GailT, I'm member of the H & HV project and checked the box to share my results with the project admin. My kit number is 133712

Thanks, and I also added you to the H-Discovery project for rare subclades of H. You share 13105 with two people from the Netherlands, and you have 2 extra mutations that are unique for H18. I now have 15 members in H18 with an average of 1.33 extra mutations and an age estimate of about 3500 years, perhaps with an origin in the Mediterranean region around that time.

Tresyl
07-05-2013, 11:40 PM
Thanks, and I also added you to the H-Discovery project for rare subclades of H. You share 13105 with two people from the Netherlands, and you have 2 extra mutations that are unique for H18. I now have 15 members in H18 with an average of 1.33 extra mutations and an age estimate of about 3500 years, perhaps with an origin in the Mediterranean region around that time.

Thanks GailT. Where can I find the H-Discovery project?

GailT
07-06-2013, 05:22 AM
Thanks GailT. Where can I find the H-Discovery project?

In your FTDNA account it will be listed next to H & HV in your list of projects.

Gail

Rathna
07-07-2013, 10:07 AM
Thanks, and I also added you to the H-Discovery project for rare subclades of H. You share 13105 with two people from the Netherlands, and you have 2 extra mutations that are unique for H18. I now have 15 members in H18 with an average of 1.33 extra mutations and an age estimate of about 3500 years, perhaps with an origin in the Mediterranean region around that time.

I don't know if Gail T has amongst her 15 H18 this sample from Tuscany (from 1KGP):

NA20755: A93G A263G A750G A1438G A4769G A8860G A10136G A10190G G13708A G14364A A15326G T16519C

Rathna
07-07-2013, 02:17 PM
And what to think about this haplotype?

NA20802:
A73G T152C A263G A750G A1438G A4769G T6632C T7861C A8860G G14364A A15326G A16219G C16242N T16325C T16519C

Give a glance to the 105 Tuscans tested by the 1KGP, not only for the 3,81% HV, 28,57% H, 17,14% H1, 1,90% H3, 1,90% V, but also for the high variability and new subclades of H*.

twestern
07-20-2013, 02:39 AM
I just got my results from 23andme. They said I was H18 and the mtDNA Haplogroup Analyzer at http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/ seems to confirm it:

----------

1) H18

Defining Markers for haplogroup H18:
HVR2: 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 14364A 15326G
HVR1:

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup H18 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 13708A 14364A ⇨ H18 ⇨ 13105G (16519C)

Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
Matches(8): 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 14364A 15326G
Extras(1): 13105G (16519C)


2) H

Defining Markers for haplogroup H:
HVR2: 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 15326G
HVR1:

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup H (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 13105G 13708A 14364A (16519C)

Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
Matches(6): 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 15326G
Extras(3): 13105G 13708A 14364A (16519C)
----------------

Rathna
07-20-2013, 04:47 AM
Of course your data are very interesting. For your 13105G you are linked to these French, Dutch and now Northern England: Also this could be a witness of the migration from Italy, found in so many other haplogroups.

GailT
07-20-2013, 06:16 PM
Sorry I missed this post - I have not yet looked at the 1KGP H samples, but it would be very interesting to see how the percentage of H* varies among the different population groups.

The 1KGP test for mtDNA seems pretty accurate - there were only a couple of cases where the results missed mutations that should have been present.

Rathna
07-20-2013, 07:05 PM
Sorry I missed this post - I have not yet looked at the 1KGP H samples, but it would be very interesting to see how the percentage of H* varies among the different population groups.

The 1KGP test for mtDNA seems pretty accurate - there were only a couple of cases where the results missed mutations that should have been present.

Gail, of course to find all the H* would be a great work. I have examined only Tuscan population so far. Anyway we have the results of the 5 European populations:
CEU (n=103)
H 28.16%
H1 16.50%
H3 4.85%
FIN ((n=97)
H 14.43%
H1 19.59%
H3 2.06%
GBR (n=94)
H 20.21%
H1 13.83%
H3 9.57%
TSI (n=105)
H 28.57
H1 17.14%
H3 1.90%
IBS (n=14)
H 21.43%
H1 14.29%
H3 14.29%

Elspeth
01-15-2015, 05:24 PM
I am also H18: UK. Keen to learn more about this haplogroup.

OldAl
08-07-2015, 03:10 PM
H18b, very interesting.

OldAl
08-07-2015, 03:21 PM
In addition, I've seen a lot of H18 people on my relative finder on 23andme with maternal ancestry in Michigan. My direct maternal line goes to Scotland, I believe.

OldAl
08-08-2015, 06:32 PM
1) H18b

Defining Markers for haplogroup H18b:
HVR2: 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13105G 13708A 14364A 15326G
HVR1:

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup H18b (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 13708A 14364A ⇨ H18 ⇨ 13105G ⇨ H18b ⇨ (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(8): 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13105G 13708A 14364A
Extras(0): (16519C)
Untested(1): 15326


2) H18

Defining Markers for haplogroup H18:
HVR2: 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 14364A 15326G
HVR1:

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup H18 (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 13708A 14364A ⇨ H18 ⇨ 13105G (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(7): 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 13708A 14364A
Extras(1): 13105G (16519C)
Untested(1): 15326


3) H

Defining Markers for haplogroup H:
HVR2: 263G
CR: 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G 15326G
HVR1:

Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup H (plus extra markers):
H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 13105G 13708A 14364A (16519C)

Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
Matches(5): 263G 750G 1438G 4769G 8860G
Extras(3): 13105G 13708A 14364A (16519C)
Untested(1): 15326

OldAl
11-07-2015, 05:52 PM
Recently learned that the direct maternal line likely goes back to England.

Ralna
01-13-2018, 02:08 AM
Hello everyone.
anyone?
This is an old thread but just about all I can find about H18 besides academic papers. I found out I have this mtDNA type through 23 and Me. This paper about haplogroup H in Caucasus and Western Asia found six H18 individuals in the middle east: 5 in the Arabian peninsula, 1 in Syria, out of initial 6199 samples in region narrowed it to just 1219 H individuals. 1 of 28 hg H Syrians were H18. 5 of 52 hg H samples in Arabian peninsula were H18, a notably higher incidence overall compared to the rest of the region. The H18 group is shown as an orange band on a chart in the paper.

I am not allowed to post links, but anyone can google and find this free paper from 2006. Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective Free
"A total of 6,199 samples were screened for the absence of 7025 AluI restriction site (induced by a T to C transition at np 7028), indicative of hg H. Of these, 1,219 fell to hg H and 545 samples were involved to detailed clustering. "

Saetro
01-17-2018, 12:46 AM
Hello everyone.
anyone?
This is an old thread but just about all I can find about H18 besides academic papers. I found out I have this mtDNA type through 23 and Me. This paper about haplogroup H in Caucasus and Western Asia found six H18 individuals in the middle east: 5 in the Arabian peninsula, 1 in Syria, out of initial 6199 samples in region narrowed it to just 1219 H individuals. 1 of 28 hg H Syrians were H18. 5 of 52 hg H samples in Arabian peninsula were H18, a notably higher incidence overall compared to the rest of the region. The H18 group is shown as an orange band on a chart in the paper.

I am not allowed to post links, but anyone can google and find this free paper from 2006. Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective Free
"A total of 6,199 samples were screened for the absence of 7025 AluI restriction site (induced by a T to C transition at np 7028), indicative of hg H. Of these, 1,219 fell to hg H and 545 samples were involved to detailed clustering. "

This paper is Roostalu (et al) 2006 https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/24/2/436/1148196

Technology has advanced and terminology also, with a major revision in 2012 from Behar http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929712001462
Look towards the bottom for the link to Supplement in which you will find the date of formation of H18 around page 103.

Academic articles can be hard work, but rewarding with these dates and also some good maps sometimes.
Google Scholar has some handy features.
For example, you could locate that earlier Roostalu paper and then look for papers that refer to it (under "cited") and then filter for recent dates to find the latest work.

H18 is certainly rare. Good luck.

Ralna
05-11-2021, 04:42 PM
Adding more info on H18 and its subclade H18b, here are a few other finds: H18 is found in ancient DNA samples. One each in London and Denmark plague cemeteries. Look for your more in your haplogroup here, by clicking on haplogroup to rank the columns. Papers linked (a database in Czech republic) https://amtdb.org/samples

H18 in two different cemeteries, in a study of Longobards (Lombards). This is a group of "barbarian" people and their allies, who have a legend they migrated from southern Scandinavia. They invaded the declining Roman Empire and ruled the Italian peninsula for at least a couple hundred years, spreading into Iberia. https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/16/longobards-ancient-dna-from-pannonia-and-italy-what-does-their-dna-tell-us-are-you-related/

Last but not least, Ian Logan's spreadsheet. Not updated that often, but still relevant: http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h18_genbank_sequences.htm I also posted this info under H18b

Ralna
05-11-2021, 04:55 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437654/ the paper about two populations in Andalusia. The spreadsheet you can click at the very end, has six individuals with H18 haplogroup assignment, I would not rule out that some or all could be 18b as I can't see any mention of the marker that's used to distinguish them, which is of recent use.

Of course none of this gives me any idea how it connects with my very northern European heritage, other than they think Iberian folk were a large portion of those who populated the British Isles. A connection with those Lombards, mentioned earlier? I suppose it's possible. The area was an important mining and trading center, with rich artifacts and horse sacrifices found.