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View Full Version : Take R1b L21+, L720+ for example: Gaels, but what does it tell us?



History-of-Things
06-30-2013, 04:17 PM
OK, I'm being self-indulgent and starting a thread about a very specific Y-chromosome SNP, namely mine (R1b L21+ DF21+ L720+). It is however a very interesting instance. Here is an SNP found by Walk with the Y that is still "Dark Ages" (or late Roman, if that is appropriate for beyond the pale, to beginnings of High Medieval, by conventional ways of reckoning). What however can be said from it?

Jim Wilson (of Britain's DNA/Scotland's DNA) estimates it would be found in 0.08% of the British population. To my astonishment this still would equal something like 50,000 people. It by all accounts appears Gaelic. Our bunch:

O'Neil: Documented ancestor connected with Tipperary but a branch of an Ulster family
McQuilkin: Rathlin Island
MacLellan: Balemore on North Uist, Scotland
MacInnes: Morvern, Scotland
Davidson: 19th c. Glasgow

plus the New World colonists:
two MacIntosh associated with Nova Scotia
Singleton, Farris, Williams--very closely related and possibly from a single immigrant ancestor despite different (and likely somewhat altered) surnames, in all likelihood part of the so-called "Scots-Irish" settlement of Virginia's Shenandoah Valley.
McDonald of Texas

I am not privy to the results that Britain's/Scotland's DNA have turned up, and the Genographic results have been botched and not corrected so far.

So the sum of the results is, well, stretched initially from, perhaps, Antrim through the Scottish Isles to the west coast of Scotland. As some know my distant kinsman O'Neil sees possible familial relationships between the different clans and so on. I'm more inclined to focus on the geography myself, due to our relative perceptions of how useful surnames can or cannot be in isolation. I do consider myself lucky to have such an apparently geographically specific SNP.

Can any of this evidence be really taken to infer social position or networks? Does it just represent how far the normal range of one family in a fairly distinct regional culture can spread in, say, 1500 years? If we can say no more about the contours of such a recent SNP, how can we hope to say anything about a more ancient one?

Dubhthach
06-30-2013, 06:53 PM
Well you have to remember that Ireland and Scotland formed one ethno-linguistic space for a very long time. Someways it's like thinking about the history of Scandinavia. Movement occurred freely between the two, this is particulary evident with the likes of Gallowglasses and Redshanks coming to fight as mercanaries in Ireland. In the early 12th century probably the most geographically widespread language spoken in Ireland and Britain was not English (as it is today) but instead "Middle Irish".

Regarding genographic project what issues are you seeing at the moment. It might be worth asking ScotlandsDNA if they have include L720 in their new chip/product. Obviously the more people tested the more likely you will find matches.

History-of-Things
07-01-2013, 03:11 AM
Well you have to remember that Ireland and Scotland formed one ethno-linguistic space for a very long time. Someways it's like thinking about the history of Scandinavia. Movement occurred freely between the two, this is particulary evident with the likes of Gallowglasses and Redshanks coming to fight as mercanaries in Ireland. In the early 12th century probably the most geographically widespread language spoken in Ireland and Britain was not English (as it is today) but instead "Middle Irish".

Regarding genographic project what issues are you seeing at the moment. It might be worth asking ScotlandsDNA if they have include L720 in their new chip/product. Obviously the more people tested the more likely you will find matches.

ScotlandsDNA has L720 on their chip (thanks to me) but I do not have access to their data. We have been testing the SNP long enough that I don't expect many great divergences in the future. The genographic project botched my test by their own admission, so we have to wait around until they find another person with the SNP for them to test, since even for their own benefit they won't rerun tests.

I agree with your statement and think in this instance that the distribution actually expresses a geo-political realm of a sort, and one that existed as arguably distinctive until the 15th century.

I can't say that I think the family of brothers actually helps demarcate much else, though. The range of surnames suggests later existence within a clan system but not the origin of the family per se, in my opinion. Does the distribution actually express the Dal Riata? Or simply the spread of a family across a culturally united realm over centuries? Of course some might even say it could have something to do with Roman period Britain, because some people think the Epidii were Gaels.

I think it must be a rather average size family for its age. Attributing its existence or spread to anything in particular seems problematic. I raise this as an examination with a more recent SNP of the sort of things people are apt to attribute to older SNPs. This is intended as a methodological inquiry as much as it is a search for answers (I'm relatively happy to say my paternal line would seem to be Scots at this point).

Saltwaterdiva
05-17-2015, 06:57 PM
How interesting! My male cousins, Mc/MacLellans with ancestral origins in South Uist, are also positive at L720. I believe I've seen your kit in the surname project at FTDNA. Our line immigrated to Prince Edward Island in Canada in 1790 from a small coastal community near Ben Corrodale on the east coast of South Uist. The male ancestor who made the trip across the pond was married to a Stewart from North Uist and I've always been curious as to how a North Uist woman and a South Uist man would have met in the 1700's. Perhaps he was kin to your John McLellan from Balemore?

Leitir Fura
06-23-2016, 11:03 AM
I am R1b - L21 (S145) >DF21 (S192) >(S299) (L720) with ancestors from Skye that go back to Morvern in 1500, (migrated to Skye by c 1510 I suspect), and all MacInnes like me. If you would like more info let me know.

Leitir Fura
07-02-2016, 04:52 AM
Where did you get the DNA test from that indicated that O'Neil was positive L720+... and also where did the McQuilkin: Rathlin Island result come from please... ? Estimate now with positive tests is 0.13% of male population...

oneillabu
07-05-2016, 10:57 PM
Where did you get the DNA test from that indicated that O'Neil was positive L720+... and also where did the McQuilkin: Rathlin Island result come from please... ? Estimate now with positive tests is 0.13% of male population...

I see you have been busy posting and that you actually have given your surname as McInnes so you can disregard my request for your details on the other thread

To answer your question I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO COMMERCIALLY TEST for L720 on 10/05/2011 after it was discovered in Jonathan Farris's DNA so I take it from your comment that you are shocked to be associated with the Irish, this does not surprise me given my experience with the Clan McInnes project, below is the contents of an email I sent to the project on Thu 06/10/2011 23:10, YES THAT IS NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO



Hi, my name is Seamus O’Neill from Ireland. I have been working for sometime on what appears to be an ancient Dalriada cluster of which three to date including myself, a Farris, and a MacLellan have all have tested positive for the new SNP DF21. There is a cluster in your project group that seems to fit this group well with the following kit numbers

66587
197174
89266
161880
36977
205362

Is there any chance that any one of these members could be persuaded to test for DF21 which costs $29 from FTDNA, the signs are very good for a positive result based on matches to the group on some key markers. I have included a link to the DF21 project if you want to take a look. Thank you for your time.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-DF21/default.aspx?section=yresults

Kind Regards
Seamus O’Neill


I RECEIVED NO RESPONSE TO THIS EMAIL, OR TO OTHER SIMILAR EMAILS I SENT TO THE PROJECT OVER THE PERIOD OF A YEAR

This left me in no doubt that this was an Anti-Irish attitude which is fine by me, I subsequently contacted through YSearch a very nice McInnes chap who had no problem in ordering the L720 test which sure enough was positive and he also joined the DF21 project which proved that the attitude of the project (which I have no doubt is the same as your own) was not shared by all the people in the project.

To suggest that L720 is Scottish Pictish in origin and originated in Scotland simply underlines you own desire not to be associated with Ireland however this theory is completely refuted by the extremely high amount of Irish surnames that are displayed in the upstream SNP's that exist between S5488 and S7200, indeed it actually goes from nearly 100% Irish pre-S7200 to 90% Scottish post-S7200 SNP which support the Book of Ballymote pedigree showing the Scottish line to Erc splitting from the Irish line at Aongus Tuirimheach 81st Monarch who had a Son Fiacha Fearmara from whom stem the Dal Riada (229 BC Approx) This is absolutely supported by the number of non-matching SNP's between the L720 people and the S7200 cluster and also the Genetic distance between STR markers.

You are incorrect to state that L720 is the terminal SNP for this cluster, there are two distinct clusters, namely your own group and the O'Neill cluster, you do not have the following SNP's 13225167, 19446955, 21230642, 23636846, these are unique to the O'Neill's and R-Z16305 which seems to define your group, also there are distinct STR marker differences between the two groups such as a DYS444 value of 13 and others for your group. The origin of your group is most likely the Driscoll clan in Ireland who are of the Dal Fiatach line, you will find an L720+ Driscol from Cork in the Driscol project group that shares you distinct STR pattern and with whom you share a common ancestor from 1500 years ago.

If you feel you are a Scottish Pict that is your prerogative but at least try to support this with some actual research besides wishful thinking

Leitir Fura
07-06-2016, 08:21 AM
I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin. So be it. I have no problem being associate with the Irish but I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be. I don't mind either way which way the outcome lies but being new to this I was only taking it that L720 / S299 and a common ancestor appears to have been Scottish and as indicated by others, but with the proviso that it is really too early to tell. As for down stream markers from L720 I have not been advised of any proven ones, and that ScotlandDNA advise that my terminal SNP is S299, which is L720.
As you are obviously more knowledgeable than me maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible...? Any help appreciated. Clinton mhic Aonghais

oneillabu
07-06-2016, 05:48 PM
I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin. So be it. I have no problem being associate with the Irish but I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be. I don't mind either way which way the outcome lies but being new to this I was only taking it that L720 / S299 and a common ancestor appears to have been Scottish and as indicated by others, but with the proviso that it is really too early to tell. As for down stream markers from L720 I have not been advised of any proven ones, and that ScotlandDNA advise that my terminal SNP is S299, which is L720.
As you are obviously more knowledgeable than me maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible...? Any help appreciated. Clinton mhic Aonghais


I see by comment made by others that you like to lead with the chin
You mean to say people don't like me? how will I sleep tonight knowing this. Well when people claim that DF21 originated in Belgium 2000 years ago based on one individual and there are Genetic distances between Irish clusters with marker mismatches of over 50% at 111 then common sense tells you that DF21 has been in Ireland for over 4000 years so I was simply arguing for the truth, Rathlin proved I was right for both DF21 and S5488, yes I have fought many heated battles on this forum and won most of them so I apologise to no one for this



I do not think at this early stage that you can assume anything as you seen to be

This is really very simple, If a ship full of Native American's came to Ireland 1000 years ago and adopted Irish surnames then based on their DNA matches for this period and using your West Scotland logic for L720 you could define a Native Irish cluster however all upstream matches will clearly lead back to North America and their true origin, you can clearly see this with S5488 because the progression from Irish to Scottish surnames is very clearly defined and can leave one in no doubt as to the Irish origin of this line.



maybe you can advise me how I can convert my ScotlandDNA SNP results to STR values, or is this not possible.

FTDNA will convert only from the old Sorensons database so they cannot help, you can send your deep ancestry results to the Scottish DNA project for their research (link below) but they will not be able to give you STR markers, the one advantage that you have is that you know your SNP type so a simple 12 marker test with FTDNA would be enough to allow you to join the DF21 project, you can increase your markers each time there is a sale on at FTDNA.


https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/scottishdna/about/background

Leitir Fura
07-07-2016, 09:09 PM
Thanks for your help in understanding. I like you have the never give up gene .... Apologies if the following question is stupid. Has anyone predicated an approximate age four a common ancestor that is L720...? Was it around the time of the creation of the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland? What are the current predictions for S5488, L7200, etc as no doubt these change with more data? Any help in understanding appreciated.. Trying to get my head around this time wise ...

oneillabu
07-07-2016, 10:34 PM
Thanks for your help in understanding. I like you have the never give up gene .... Apologies if the following question is stupid. Has anyone predicated an approximate age four a common ancestor that is L720...? Was it around the time of the creation of the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland? What are the current predictions for S5488, L7200, etc as no doubt these change with more data? Any help in understanding appreciated.. Trying to get my head around this time wise ...

The most accurate prediction for Genetic Distances would have to be FTDNA because obviously they have researched this very thoroughly, they give a maximum distance of 10 at 111 markers within the timeframe of surnames which I understand to be 800 years so if we double this to say 1600 years we get a GD of 20. The distance between myself and McLellan of Uist who has tested to 111 markers is 18 which is on the money for 1500 years, this is also consistent for other L720 people that have tested to 111 markers so it seems to be accurate. The distance between the S7200 people and the L720 people points to 220 BC or 700 years earlier which remarkably seems to reflect the pedigree for Fiacha Fearmara from the Book of Ballymote which shows a split takes place around 229 BC from Aongus Tuirimheach to the Dalriada line to Erc.

Apologies if I seemed abrupt in earlier posts, some of these Scottish (and Irish) projects who will not advise their members as to the best course of research to follow really piss me off, they do not own their members right to their true ancestry, if the project admin has personal agendas then they have no business being a project admin and should look into their own research and allow a more objective person to do the job.

Sealgair
07-08-2016, 12:22 PM
Leitir Fura,

Now that YFull has two S7200 samples to work with they will probably update the tree with an age prediction for S7200 soon.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

R-S5488 / Y11277 formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybpinfo

R-S5488*
R-S7200
id:YF06201(new)
id:YF02822
R-S20620 / Y15097 * Y15088 * Y15095+21 SNPsformed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
id:YF03427USA [US-SC]
id:YF02537IRL [IE-KY]
R-Z16294 / Y17455 * Z16294formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpinfo
R-Z16294*
id:YF05006ENG
id:YF04997
R-Y17454 / Z16284 * Y17454 * Z16293+6 SNPsformed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
id:YF04178IRL [IE-KK]
id:YF02548IRL [IE-WH]

[After posting I noticed the formatting was lost on the tree section. The link does work so you can see a clean copy of the tree at their site.]

Dubhthach
07-08-2016, 04:19 PM
Leitir Fura,

Now that YFull has two S7200 samples to work with they will probably update the tree with an age prediction for S7200 soon.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

R-S5488 / Y11277 formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybpinfo

R-S5488*
R-S7200
id:YF06201(new)
id:YF02822
R-S20620 / Y15097 * Y15088 * Y15095+21 SNPsformed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 600 ybpinfo
id:YF03427USA [US-SC]
id:YF02537IRL [IE-KY]
R-Z16294 / Y17455 * Z16294formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybpinfo
R-Z16294*
id:YF05006ENG
id:YF04997
R-Y17454 / Z16284 * Y17454 * Z16293+6 SNPsformed 3400 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
id:YF04178IRL [IE-KK]
id:YF02548IRL [IE-WH]

[After posting I noticed the formatting was lost on the tree section. The link does work so you can see a clean copy of the tree at their site.]

More direct link here:
https://yfull.com/tree/R-S5488/

As you mentioned only two S7200 men on yfull, as one is new they haven't let calculated a date, given that Alex Williamson has 15 S7200 samples on his tree if a bunch of these could be gotten to get their data analysed with YFull it would
(a) help refine age of S7200
(b) help refine S5488 -- though i imagine given it's one step down from DF21 it's probable that it occurred fairly soon after DF21. (within 1-4 generations)

Leitir Fura
07-17-2016, 05:50 AM
Thanks for this.... I guess this whole process id one of time and lots more people testing.

Leitir Fura
07-17-2016, 05:55 AM
Thanks .... Are you saying that L720 points to around 500 AD...? or have I got this wrong?

Dubhthach
07-17-2016, 03:10 PM
Thanks for this.... I guess this whole process id one of time and lots more people testing.

I see they have gotten three extra S7200 men added to their tree. As a result they have following prediction for the clade:
formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 2500 ybp

https://yfull.com/tree/R-S7200/

Don't know if any of those samples are L720+

Leitir Fura
08-16-2016, 06:19 AM
The more I study this and plot L720 / S299 + candidates true likely origins on a map the more highly likely it appears that the original L720 / S299 common ancestor was Pictish and originated in the Highlands or area of the Caladonii, or the Creones to the south west, and not in Ireland, or Dal Riata. I would bet that more future positive candidates that come to light for this subtype can have a valid case made likewise. As for the odd Irish O'Neill who test positive maybe they were descended from a later Scottish Gallowglass type who spent one too many nights with an Irish maiden and was forced to stay and change his name ... Nothing like a bit of Scottish common sense to upset Éirinn go Brách....or as my gran used to say... The proof will be in the puddingB)

oneillabu
08-16-2016, 11:33 PM
The more I study this and plot L720 / S299 + candidates true likely origins on a map the more highly likely it appears that the original L720 / S299 common ancestor was Pictish and originated in the Highlands or area of the Caladonii, or the Creones to the south west, and not in Ireland, or Dal Riata. I would bet that more future positive candidates that come to light for this subtype can have a valid case made likewise. As for the odd Irish O'Neill who test positive maybe they were descended from a later Scottish Gallowglass type who spent one too many nights with an Irish maiden and was forced to stay and change his name ... Nothing like a bit of Scottish common sense to upset Éirinn go Brách....or as my gran used to say... The proof will be in the puddingB)

Wow thats incredible, years of diligent research, hundreds of spreadsheets carefully matching slow markers and checking Genetic Distances and to think that there was someone out there who could have saved me all them wasted hours with Scottish Common sense.

Back in the real world we find that the Neilan from Clare and Myself share 21 SNP's which include the following SNP's 13225167, 19446955, 21230642, 23636846, we also find that none of the L720 Scottish people have these, also the Genetic Distance between myself and Neilan is 13 at 111 markers which mean we stem from a common O'Neill ancestor dating from the 10th Century, there were no Scottish Gallowglass in Ireland until the 13th Century, you really do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of ancient ancestry regarding Genetic Distance and SNP mutations so here is a simple narrative to help you

Lets say that a Native American person came to Ireland a thousand years ago and his DNA had an SNP mutation called NA2, now when surnames came into use this persons ancestors obviously used Irish surnames so a cluster of NA2 people formed who appear as Native Irish based on their surnames and their various locations around Ireland, now lets say that this person finds that NA2 is a downstream SNP from a parent NA1 SNP and we find that there are no Irish in the parent NA1 only North American matches. If we use a bit of "Irish common sense" here we find that this DNA type originated in North America.

Now lets apply this logic into the S5488 people, here we find that over two thousand years ago the various downstream branches of S5488 are all Irish such as the Ely O'Carroll, O'Connor Corcomroe etc and we then find that a downstream branch S7200 has a very high concentration of Scottish surnames and we also know that a migration from Ireland to Scotland took place then common logic dictates that this Scottish cluster is from this migration especially when the Genetic distances between the early Irish and later Scottish support this, simple stuff and not to hard to grasp.

I also suggest that you read up on Scottish surnames and their various origins because there is not a single Pictish name in either the S7200 or L720 cluster, indeed some of them are actually Scottish Norman names so there is absolutely no validity to your claim

Éirinn agus Alba go Brágh

Leitir Fura
08-17-2016, 01:19 AM
I love your obvious enthusiasm to prove everyone else wrong by assumption... Next you will be telling me that every indigenous strain in Scotland came from Ireland. I will let those obviously a lot more educated than you and the actual evidence tell the story ultimately.. What u have is nothing more than conjecture as I have regarding likely origin.... but the names do point out what I am saying no matter what you say. So please don't continually blow hard about the tree that shakes and changes in the wind of time. Like the Irish scribes you seem hell bent on forcing your theory of Irish Scoti descent on all Scots when the evidence does not support it or even point that way. I suggest you start dealing in fact instead of myth concerning Dal Riata also... Next you will be telling me that mhic Aonghais came from the Isle of Islay.

Leitir Fura
08-17-2016, 05:59 AM
Oh one thing you might like to enlighten me on is where L7200 and S5488 originated and at approx what dates?

Dubhthach
08-17-2016, 01:42 PM
I'm assuming Neilan has done BigY? Has he submitted his BigY data to Alex's ytree or to yfull?

It doesn't seem like any L720 men have submitted their data to YFULL, adding in a number of them would help with resolving age of S7200 and S5488

https://yfull.com/tree/R-S5488/

oneillabu
08-17-2016, 06:49 PM
I love your obvious enthusiasm to prove everyone else wrong by assumption... Next you will be telling me that every indigenous strain in Scotland came from Ireland. I will let those obviously a lot more educated than you and the actual evidence tell the story ultimately.. What u have is nothing more than conjecture as I have regarding likely origin.... but the names do point out what I am saying no matter what you say. So please don't continually blow hard about the tree that shakes and changes in the wind of time. Like the Irish scribes you seem hell bent on forcing your theory of Irish Scoti descent on all Scots when the evidence does not support it or even point that way. I suggest you start dealing in fact instead of myth concerning Dal Riata also... Next you will be telling me that mhic Aonghais came from the Isle of Islay.




I love your obvious enthusiasm to prove everyone else wrong by assumption... Next you will be telling me that every indigenous strain in Scotland came from Ireland. I will let those obviously a lot more educated than you and the actual evidence tell the story ultimately..

I was under the impression that DNA WAS EVIDENCE unless of course you wish to ignore SNP's, STR Mutations and Genetic Distance etc


Like the Irish scribes you seem hell bent on forcing your theory of Irish Scoti descent on all Scots when the evidence does not support it or even point that way. I suggest you start dealing in fact instead of myth concerning Dal Riata

Ah the mask has dropped at last, I call it Dal Riada denial, you know people in search of this pure Scottish strain who engage in various forms of self delusion and ignore the ancient writings of the Venerable Bede and Adomnan, I have even heard it said that St Columba was a Scottish Pict, there are some good books that help with this condition such as "Studies in the History of Dalriada" by John Bannerman and "Kings and Kingship in Early Scotland" by Marjorie Anderson as well as the early entries in the various Annals of Ireland (which you believe are all fakes)


Next you will be telling me that mhic Aonghais came from the Isle of Islay.

I was under the impression the Clan McInnes people were buried on St Columba's Isle of Iona, maybe this was proof that St Columba was a Scottish Pict as the Dal Riada denial brigage believe

Leitir Fura
08-18-2016, 12:54 AM
You may want to bully your way through the world to get you theories accepted but time will tell... DNA research has NOT proven what you say as you know full well. The administrator on this forum should pull you into line for generally abusing others with your egotistical supposed superior intellect and constant ranting which I am afraid to say leaves a lot to be desired...You can invent people with L720 SNP's as much as you like but until the evidence is on the table with them actually dipping in their pockets and getting the test done to verify the assertion all you record is nothing more than CONJECTURE and certainly not proof of anything. The next book you read I suggest should be the one authored by Dale Carnegie.

OK lets get back on a rational footing....

You have stated and I quote ....

To suggest that L720 is Scottish Pictish in origin is completely refuted by the extremely high amount of Irish surnames that are displayed in the upstream SNP's that exist between S5488 and S7200, indeed it actually goes from nearly 100% Irish pre-S7200 to 90% Scottish post-S7200 SNP

Please remember what you actually said ….100% pre S7200 (being DF21) to 90% Scottish.

Firstly can I ask what are these upstream SNP’s that exist between S7200 and S5488. Maybe you could enlighten me, or do you have some knowledge others do not?

Secondly they didn’t have clann names in c 220 BC when S7200 was formed, or in c 2600BC to 2200BC as the horizon of DF21 / S192 so to base your comment on 11 century names is surely meaningless.

Next with regard to the British Isles - L21, and almost all DF21, is found outside Anglo-Saxon regions. L21 is spread through what were formerly or still are Celtic regions. DF21 has a small presence in modern day England, just enough to show that it too was once Celtic, and a good showing on the Celtic countries of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, (as does L21 - Wales 47% Irish 38%, Scotland, 25%, England 17%). To say that pre S7200 that DF21 is nearly 100% Irish is, therefore, patently not born out by the facts and is untrue. This is nothing more than selective wording and generalisation, I believe, to justify your personal view.

Interestingly, as the author, you then go onto say that post-S7200 SNP the candidates are 90% Scottish. Once again in truth we do not know this, but we suspect they are at least based on the known names TESTED as being L720 +.

So how one then makes the wild leap to say that L720 is Irish with those testing positive being descended from Dal Riata and those of King Eirc in northern Ireland is amazing. It could be just as conceivable that L720 is Scottish in origin as the majority of the names suggest.

oneillabu
08-18-2016, 05:17 PM
You may want to bully your way through the world to get you theories accepted but time will tell... DNA research has NOT proven what you say as you know full well. The administrator on this forum should pull you into line for generally abusing others with your egotistical supposed superior intellect and constant ranting which I am afraid to say leaves a lot to be desired...You can invent people with L720 SNP's as much as you like but until the evidence is on the table with them actually dipping in their pockets and getting the test done to verify the assertion all you record is nothing more than CONJECTURE and certainly not proof of anything. The next book you read I suggest should be the one authored by Dale Carnegie.

OK lets get back on a rational footing....

You have stated and I quote ....

To suggest that L720 is Scottish Pictish in origin is completely refuted by the extremely high amount of Irish surnames that are displayed in the upstream SNP's that exist between S5488 and S7200, indeed it actually goes from nearly 100% Irish pre-S7200 to 90% Scottish post-S7200 SNP

Please remember what you actually said ….100% pre S7200 (being DF21) to 90% Scottish.

Firstly can I ask what are these upstream SNP’s that exist between S7200 and S5488. Maybe you could enlighten me, or do you have some knowledge others do not?

Secondly they didn’t have clann names in c 220 BC when S7200 was formed, or in c 2600BC to 2200BC as the horizon of DF21 / S192 so to base your comment on 11 century names is surely meaningless.

Next with regard to the British Isles - L21, and almost all DF21, is found outside Anglo-Saxon regions. L21 is spread through what were formerly or still are Celtic regions. DF21 has a small presence in modern day England, just enough to show that it too was once Celtic, and a good showing on the Celtic countries of Wales, Ireland and Scotland, (as does L21 - Wales 47% Irish 38%, Scotland, 25%, England 17%). To say that pre S7200 that DF21 is nearly 100% Irish is, therefore, patently not born out by the facts and is untrue. This is nothing more than selective wording and generalisation, I believe, to justify your personal view.

Interestingly, as the author, you then go onto say that post-S7200 SNP the candidates are 90% Scottish. Once again in truth we do not know this, but we suspect they are at least based on the known names TESTED as being L720 +.

So how one then makes the wild leap to say that L720 is Irish with those testing positive being descended from Dal Riata and those of King Eirc in northern Ireland is amazing. It could be just as conceivable that L720 is Scottish in origin as the majority of the names suggest.



If presenting actual evidence is classed as bullying then what are you engaged in? YOU HAVE PRODUCED NOTHING to back up you Scottish Pictish L720 origin except for some vague locational origin theory based on the current location of tested L720 people, you state that my DNA is the result of some liaison between a Scottish Pictish Gallowglass who had his wicked way with some Irish Girl, you then state that I am inventing L720 people and then you make the completely ludicrious statement that the Dal Riada migration never took place and is simply a Myth AND I AM INSULTING YOU by producing clear evidence of STR patterns and Genetic distances matched to certain Irish and Scottish surnames? Here are the facts once again

In the L720 section of the DF21 project all of the following have tested positive for L720 as well as myself

256952 Patrick Neal
277910 Patrick Neylon
278909 Patrick Neilan
228771 Donald MacIntosh
229077 Angus MacIntosh
22006 William Bell(e) Davidson
140820 John MacLellan N Uist
247731 Angus McLellan South Uist,
382859 Angus McLure
183551 Peter McDonald
33803 Neil McQuilkin Rathlin Island
197174 Neil MacInnes
120966 June Singleton
53766 Isaac Farris

Out of these 15 people 5 are Irish, 2 from North America, 7 are Scottish

Here are tested L720 people in other projects with the link to each project (these are the ones that you implied I made up)

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/giles/results
136568 Gillis (I have five other untested Gillis people with the same STR pattern)


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/McPherson/default.aspx?section=yresults
222733 McPherson

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/weird/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
207482 Weir

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/morrowdna/default.aspx?section=yresults
47226 Morrow (There is a cluster of four of these Irish Morrow's)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Driscoll?iframe=yresults
N44995 James Driscoll Timoleague, Cork, Ireland

Overall tested number is 20 people 7 are Irish, 2 from North America, 10 are Scottish

Are you seriously trying to tell me that this is a Scottish Pictish cluster, that is a lot of randy wandering Gallowglass mercenaries and where did all the rest of these Picts go?

The vast majority of these people were contacted by me regarding testing and in every single case I was correct in my assumption that they were L720+, in the case of 207482 Weir he had only tested to 25 markers which shows how clearly defined this STR pattern is, now lets look at the Irish L720 and Scottish L720 signature with regards to distinctive markers

First of all for anyone that has tested to 111 markers you will that the very slow marker DYS462 has a value of 12 which defines the L720 cluster

In the case of the Scottish people they have the following distinctive markers that the O'Neill cluster do not have

DYS464A = 14 (14-15-16-18)
DYS444 = 13

Note that the O'Driscol match from Cork actually has these Mutations which indicate that his ancestors are the source of the Scottish L720

THIS PROVES THAT THE O'NEILL CLUSTER IS A SEPARATE IRISH LINE AND HAD NO SCOTTISH ANCESTORS

Regarding the upstream SNP's and S5488, this is widely available, look at the DF21 project and the surnames in the S5488 section or look at the link below

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5488/

The only one taking a wild leap is you, with this fictitious L720 Pictish Clan that have vanished out of Scotland, REMEMBER THAT DF21 is Irish in origin proven by the Rathlin find and S5488 is nearly as old as DF21, if you look at the pattern of Cist burial chambers in Ireland you will see that it was widely distributed across Ireland so where does that leave your Scottish Pictish L720 theory, in the bin I would say, if you want to see Scottish Pictish DNA look at L1065.

Leitir Fura
08-18-2016, 10:27 PM
I not disputing that L720 could have origins in Ireland or Scotland ... The jury is still out on that no matter what you bluster about and I don't mind where it sits. I guess I just get sick and tired of your abuse and innuendo that is incorrect by you not sticking to simple fact and introducing your bullying ways. Factually for me your last statement says it all .... REMEMBER THAT DF21 is Irish in origin proven by the Ratlin find. It does nothing of the kind.... Rathlin was a trading base for axes and the existence of Rathlin 1 there (and the other two) could have been for any number of reasons. I does not mean they were born there nor that they even lived there. I will leave it a that... Maybe you can enlighten me... How does someone who does not test positive for S5488 come to be positive for L720

Gray Fox
08-18-2016, 10:46 PM
(Reminder to all)

Remain civil towards each other and do not personalize the discussion. This is the one and only warning.

Leitir Fura
08-19-2016, 01:37 AM
Just to correct something that I find offensive is you making statements that are patently untrue

then you make the completely ludicrious statement that the Dal Riada migration never took place and is simply a Myth

I have NEVER said the Dal Riata migration never occurred and it is this sort of misreading and then misquoting as a direct insult that I find extremely offensive. Please re-read what was actually said. I also notice you have selectively taken names of L720. I notice you have left me out as I test positive, or are you only FTDNA selective, and what about you, or do you not test positive ? Then what about all the McInnes's with the same profile you have also missed, or are these not considered?

I have had a quick look and this what I have based on your names and other likely candidates. Can you add to this please or count any out?

A look at L720 / S299 candidates …


140820 John MacLellan N Uist (S)
247731 Angus McLellan South Uist (S)
Total = 2 (S)
The MacLellans of Uist is represented in Scottish Gaelic as MacGilleFhialain;
and these MacLellans were also known in Gaelic as Clann Iain Mhoir.

The founder of Clan Donald of Dunyveg was John Mor Tanister MacDonald, or Iain Mhoir, was the second son of John MacDonald also known as Good John of Islay, Lord of the Isles, 6th chief of Clan Donald and 1st Lord of the Isles through his marriage to Margaret Stewart. John Mor Tanister MacDonald married Margaret Bisset, heiress of the Seven Glens of Antrim. By his marriage he added these territories in Ireland to those he already possessed in Islay and Kintyre in Scotland. In Ireland he became the chief of the Clan MacDonnell of Antrim. He and his descendants became known as Lords of Dunnyvaig and the Glens. Their seat in Dunyvaig was on the Island of Islay and in the Glens they were seated in Antrim.

382859 Angus McLure (S)
In the Scottish clan system, McClures are a sept of Clan MacLeod of Harris,
which may have a connection with the MacLellans Total = 1 (S)

183551 Peter McDonald (S)
In the Scottish clan system, McDonalds have a connection with the 
MacInnes’s of Morvern at the time of Somerled
Total = 1 (S)

33803 Neil McQuilkin - Rathlin Island
Total = 1 (?)
With a small genetic distance (3 at 37 markers) to Neil MacInnes of 
Morvern this maybe a name change

120966 June Singleton
53766 Isaac Farris
Total = 2 (?)
Both likely name changes due to migration - 
possibly in the aftermath of American Revolutionary Wars


228771 Donald MacIntosh (S)
229077 Angus MacIntosh (S)
22006 William Bell(e) Davidson (S)
MacPherson (S)
Total = 4 (S)
According to Clan Chattan Association of the UK, clans 
that make up the Clan Chattan are as follows …
• Clan Davidson
• Clan Farquharson
• Clan MacBean
• Clan MacGillivray
• Clan MacIntyre of Badenoch
• Clan Mackintosh
• Clan MacLean of Dochgarroch (the Macleans of the North)
• Clan MacPhail
• Clan Macpherson
• Clan Macqueen
• Clan MacThomas
• Clan Shaw of Tordarroch

MacIntosh, McPherson and Davidson associations are here. MacGillivray also has a link to MacInnes

197174 Neil MacInnes (S)
ScotDNA Clinton McInnes (S)
FTDNA McInnes Lineage 'B' (4) (S)
Total = 6 (S)

Gillis (5) (S)
Total = 5 (S)
As for the question of where the Gillis came from before they migrated to Skye, there are a couple of interesting theories. The Gillis on the mainland of Scotland are said to be descended from the same progenitor as is Clan Chattan. Gilliechattan Mor O’Gualve was the first Chief of Clan Chattan. Where the mainland Gillis line splinters off from that of the Macphersons, is from Ewen Ban, who was the ancestor of the Macphersons. Ewen Ban had three sons - the first was Kenneth c1376, who was the ancestor of the Cluny Macphersons; the second was John, who was the ancestor of Pitmain Macphersons; and the third was Elias, called Gillies, 1st of Invereshie, who was the ancestor of the mainland Gillis.

Here in lies the connection with the MacIntoshes, Davidson, and possibly the Morrows.

Morrow (4) (?)
Total = 4 (?)
MacMorrow is found in both the Lowlands and the Highlands of Scotland. Many Morrows in Ireland will be descended from the Scottish branch as well as the Irish branch, due to the Plantation of Ulster during the 17th century when Scottish Morrows would have settled in the Irish province of Ulster, giving rise to the Scots-Irish people. Recorded in the spellings of Morrow, Morrowe, and Marrow, whilst there are several theories as to the origin of this surname, some have suggested it is English, locational, and although well recorded in Ireland it is not of Irish origins. It has been claimed that some of the Irish clan MacMurrough from Wexford have changed their name to Morrow, and this may be so, but it is also true that many English settlers called Morrow were also recorded in the same region.

More than likely Scottish origin but will defer to (?) at this time

Weir (S)
Total =1 (S)
The name Weir, like many lowland Scottish names, is of Norman origin, and may therefore be a name change, or an early migration of this individuals ancestors taking on the Weir name.

256952 Patrick Neal
Total = 1 (S)
Neal is simply a name variation of McNeil. Clan MacNeil, also known in Scotland as ‘Clan Niall’, is a highland Scottish clan, particularly associated with the Outer Hebridean island of Barra. The early history of Clan MacNeil is obscure, however despite this the clann claims to descend from the legendary Irish King Niall of the nine hostages which is unproven at this time. There is, however, a branch of the clan in Argyll (McNeill/MacNeill) that some historians have speculated was more senior in line.


277910 Patrick Neylon
278909 Patrick Neilan
Total = 2 (I)
Neylon and Neilan are very confusing surnames, which can be either Irish or English, although the roots are completely different. In general it is accepted that if the name is spelt Neylan, Neilan, Nelon, Neylon and Neiland, it is Irish and derives from the ancient gaelic O'Naillain, loosely translating as 'The descendant of the son of Neil', a reference to the saga known as 'Nail of the nine hostages', from whom the famous O'Neill clan claim their descent over fifteen centuries. I understand this name was first found on the west coast of Ireland in County Clare.

Driscoll (Cork)
Total = 1 (I)

20 Scottish
7 Unknown
3 Irish

RobertCasey
08-19-2016, 02:40 PM
Here is some additional information that I have on L720:

There is another L720+ submission in the Williams project - 43774
277910, 229077 and N44996 do not report L720+ in the YSNP reports
There is one YSEQ that tested L720+ - YSEQ ID 1966 (anyone know the FTDNA ID ?)

Eight of the L720+ submissions are less than 67 markers:
136568, 183551, 197174, 207482, 228771, 247731, 33803 and 47226
These should be upgraded to 67 markers so the accuracy of prediction could be increased.

The 67 marker signature of L720 appears to be eight markers (excluding CDYa/b). These
are based on 10 positive submissions and 70 % or higher match to be included in the
signature:

391 <= 10, 464a <= 14, 464c <= 16, 464d >= 18,
456 >= 17, 576 <= 17, 413a <= 22 and 444 >= 13

At signature match = 8, GD = 6 to 11 ------ 10 matches at accuracy of 95 %
At signature match = 7, GD = 7 to 16 ------ 11 matches at accuracy of 90 %
At signature match = 6, GD = 6 to 10 ------ 13 matches at accuracy of 50 %

For lower accuracy, the cutoff was when the accuracy reached 50 %.

In the higher accuracy range, there were the following geographies reported by users:

Scotland = 13, Ireland = 3, Denmark = 1 and Spain = 1.
Denmark had GD of 10 and Spain had GD of 13 (the highest in this range).

In the lower accuracy range, I filtered out the negatives revealing:

Scotland = 8, Ireland = 5 and Germany = 1.
Germany had GD = 10 (the highest in the range)

Of the 195 L720 negative submissions, 194 were not relevant as these
were way below the signature match. The only relevant negative
test was: 336942 found in the Irish project.

Recommendations:

1) There are a eight L720 positive submissions that need to be upgraded to 67 markers.
These upgrades would greatly help refine the L720 signature for higher accuracy.
2) There are 13 excellent testing candidates for L720 that should be tested that are
90 % or higher odds of testing positive
3) There are 6 speculative testing candidates in the six of eight matches which are
in the 50/50 range. Two are Sinclairs that has already tested L720 negative. Even
though these are speculative, they would reveal the most about the L720 signature.

Assumptions:

1) Due to time constraints, non-matches are only from the terminal YSNPs found
in the YSTR report - so there are probably a lot of missing negative results.
2) I did not include 389-1 >= 14 in the signature since only 60 % of the positive
submissions matched this marker signature. Also omitted was 449 >= 30 which
only had a 50 % of tested submissions matching this signature value.
3) The geographies were based on user input only. Examining the surnames would
probably improve the geographical assignments.
4) I did not include data for the one known son of L720 which would improve
the quality of the analysis.

From a historical analysis of my original December, 2011 review of L720:

389-1 >= 14 was not part of the original L720 fingerprint.
449 >= 30 was removed due only having a 50 % match of tested submissions.
570 <= 16 fell to 30 % matches and was removed.
CDYb <= 37 was removed as I no longer believe these are reliable for signatures.

The original analysis had only three positive submissions for L720.

Observations about the age of L720 and its father, S7200:

1) L720 remains a very predictable YSNP via binary logistic regression.
Predictable YSNPs are usually between 1,200 and 2,500 years of age.
However, Alex's chart shows 21 equivalent YSNPs, so this indicates
that this is another YSNP that barely survived the Dark Ages and it
is probably much older than most predictable YSNPs.
2) L7200 has a very small signature of four markers. It also has
very high counts for five other markers. This usually implies
a YSNP that is not reliable for YSNP prediction unless numerous
signatures were used. Since this YSNP only has one equivalent
YSNP, the range of the age would be more reliable to predict.

There is a significant signature convergence between L720 and R1a. However,
the high genetic distance can easily filter out this convergence. It is no longer
required to test L21 positive in order for signature matches to be correct as
long as you add genetic distance filters and have been predicted for any
R haplogroup.

Here is link to the analysis:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/temp/L720_20160819A.xlsx

oneillabu
08-19-2016, 03:21 PM
Just to correct something that I find offensive is you making statements that are patently untrue

then you make the completely ludicrious statement that the Dal Riada migration never took place and is simply a Myth

I have NEVER said the Dal Riata migration never occurred and it is this sort of misreading and then misquoting as a direct insult that I find extremely offensive. Please re-read what was actually said. I also notice you have selectively taken names of L720. I notice you have left me out as I test positive, or are you only FTDNA selective, and what about you, or do you not test positive ? Then what about all the McInnes's with the same profile you have also missed, or are these not considered?

I have had a quick look and this what I have based on your names and other likely candidates. Can you add to this please or count any out?

A look at L720 / S299 candidates …


140820 John MacLellan N Uist (S)
247731 Angus McLellan South Uist (S)
Total = 2 (S)
The MacLellans of Uist is represented in Scottish Gaelic as MacGilleFhialain;
and these MacLellans were also known in Gaelic as Clann Iain Mhoir.

The founder of Clan Donald of Dunyveg was John Mor Tanister MacDonald, or Iain Mhoir, was the second son of John MacDonald also known as Good John of Islay, Lord of the Isles, 6th chief of Clan Donald and 1st Lord of the Isles through his marriage to Margaret Stewart. John Mor Tanister MacDonald married Margaret Bisset, heiress of the Seven Glens of Antrim. By his marriage he added these territories in Ireland to those he already possessed in Islay and Kintyre in Scotland. In Ireland he became the chief of the Clan MacDonnell of Antrim. He and his descendants became known as Lords of Dunnyvaig and the Glens. Their seat in Dunyvaig was on the Island of Islay and in the Glens they were seated in Antrim.

382859 Angus McLure (S)
In the Scottish clan system, McClures are a sept of Clan MacLeod of Harris,
which may have a connection with the MacLellans Total = 1 (S)

183551 Peter McDonald (S)
In the Scottish clan system, McDonalds have a connection with the 
MacInnes’s of Morvern at the time of Somerled
Total = 1 (S)

33803 Neil McQuilkin - Rathlin Island
Total = 1 (?)
With a small genetic distance (3 at 37 markers) to Neil MacInnes of 
Morvern this maybe a name change

120966 June Singleton
53766 Isaac Farris
Total = 2 (?)
Both likely name changes due to migration - 
possibly in the aftermath of American Revolutionary Wars


228771 Donald MacIntosh (S)
229077 Angus MacIntosh (S)
22006 William Bell(e) Davidson (S)
MacPherson (S)
Total = 4 (S)
According to Clan Chattan Association of the UK, clans 
that make up the Clan Chattan are as follows …
• Clan Davidson
• Clan Farquharson
• Clan MacBean
• Clan MacGillivray
• Clan MacIntyre of Badenoch
• Clan Mackintosh
• Clan MacLean of Dochgarroch (the Macleans of the North)
• Clan MacPhail
• Clan Macpherson
• Clan Macqueen
• Clan MacThomas
• Clan Shaw of Tordarroch

MacIntosh, McPherson and Davidson associations are here. MacGillivray also has a link to MacInnes

197174 Neil MacInnes (S)
ScotDNA Clinton McInnes (S)
FTDNA McInnes Lineage 'B' (4) (S)
Total = 6 (S)

Gillis (5) (S)
Total = 5 (S)
As for the question of where the Gillis came from before they migrated to Skye, there are a couple of interesting theories. The Gillis on the mainland of Scotland are said to be descended from the same progenitor as is Clan Chattan. Gilliechattan Mor O’Gualve was the first Chief of Clan Chattan. Where the mainland Gillis line splinters off from that of the Macphersons, is from Ewen Ban, who was the ancestor of the Macphersons. Ewen Ban had three sons - the first was Kenneth c1376, who was the ancestor of the Cluny Macphersons; the second was John, who was the ancestor of Pitmain Macphersons; and the third was Elias, called Gillies, 1st of Invereshie, who was the ancestor of the mainland Gillis.

Here in lies the connection with the MacIntoshes, Davidson, and possibly the Morrows.

Morrow (4) (?)
Total = 4 (?)
MacMorrow is found in both the Lowlands and the Highlands of Scotland. Many Morrows in Ireland will be descended from the Scottish branch as well as the Irish branch, due to the Plantation of Ulster during the 17th century when Scottish Morrows would have settled in the Irish province of Ulster, giving rise to the Scots-Irish people. Recorded in the spellings of Morrow, Morrowe, and Marrow, whilst there are several theories as to the origin of this surname, some have suggested it is English, locational, and although well recorded in Ireland it is not of Irish origins. It has been claimed that some of the Irish clan MacMurrough from Wexford have changed their name to Morrow, and this may be so, but it is also true that many English settlers called Morrow were also recorded in the same region.

More than likely Scottish origin but will defer to (?) at this time

Weir (S)
Total =1 (S)
The name Weir, like many lowland Scottish names, is of Norman origin, and may therefore be a name change, or an early migration of this individuals ancestors taking on the Weir name.

256952 Patrick Neal
Total = 1 (S)
Neal is simply a name variation of McNeil. Clan MacNeil, also known in Scotland as ‘Clan Niall’, is a highland Scottish clan, particularly associated with the Outer Hebridean island of Barra. The early history of Clan MacNeil is obscure, however despite this the clann claims to descend from the legendary Irish King Niall of the nine hostages which is unproven at this time. There is, however, a branch of the clan in Argyll (McNeill/MacNeill) that some historians have speculated was more senior in line.


277910 Patrick Neylon
278909 Patrick Neilan
Total = 2 (I)
Neylon and Neilan are very confusing surnames, which can be either Irish or English, although the roots are completely different. In general it is accepted that if the name is spelt Neylan, Neilan, Nelon, Neylon and Neiland, it is Irish and derives from the ancient gaelic O'Naillain, loosely translating as 'The descendant of the son of Neil', a reference to the saga known as 'Nail of the nine hostages', from whom the famous O'Neill clan claim their descent over fifteen centuries. I understand this name was first found on the west coast of Ireland in County Clare.

Driscoll (Cork)
Total = 1 (I)

20 Scottish
7 Unknown
3 Irish



Just to correct something that I find offensive is you making statements that are patently untrue

then you make the completely ludicrious statement that the Dal Riada migration never took place and is simply a Myth
I have NEVER said the Dal Riata migration never occurred and it is this sort of misreading and then misquoting as a direct insult that I find extremely offensive. Please re-read what was actually said.


Here is what you actually said

"I suggest you start dealing in fact instead of myth concerning Dal Riata"

This can be interpreted a number of ways however I accept that you are saying that in your opinion all L720 people are Scottish Picts and came from Scotland
to Ireland either as Gallowglass or otherwise and that the Dal Riada migration involved other DNA types, I believe I have firmly refuted this by pointing out
unique STR and SNP mutations that the O'Neill cluster have that are absent from Scottish matches which means that there is no Scottish connection with one line of L720 based on the evidence to date.



I also notice you have selectively taken names of L720. I notice you have left me out as I test positive, or are you only FTDNA selective, and what about you, or do you not test positive ? Then what about all the McInnes's with the same profile you have also missed, or are these not considered?


You need to read your own postings, once again here is what you said

"You can invent people with L720 SNP's as much as you like but until the evidence is on the table with them actually dipping in their pockets and getting the test done to verify the assertion all you record is nothing more than CONJECTURE and certainly not proof of anything."

Here you accuse me of making up L720 matches so I gave you evidence of all 20 tested people with links to everyone outside of the project to refute this, regarding your own DNA I do not have you in my L720 Database, I do not know your kit number, your name, your STR pattern, nothing, you have not joined the DF21 project so how could I possibly know anything.

Regarding the Clan McInnes project people, I contacted them on numerous occasions about members of the L720 cluster and never once received a reply, I can only assume it is for the same reasons that you refute any Irish connection for L720 which is fine, I consider the McInnes L720 cluster as extremely important because the Genetic Distances within the Cluster show a very old McInnes ancestor, it would be nice to deal with genuine people who would actively encourage their members to test to 111 markers and work with people instead of their own agenda and old bigotries that have no place in DNA research.

THE ONLY REASON THAT WE KNOW THAT THESE MCINNES ARE L720 IS BECAUSE OF ME, I contacted through YSearch a very nice McInnes chap who agreed to test for L720 he had no problem in joining the DF21 project, it is a pleasure to work with people like that.



I have had a quick look and this what I have based on your names and other likely candidates. Can you add to this please or count any out?


There is a McClellan, kit number 166258 who is untested but 100% L720+

There is an Ward from Ireland (G6W63) who is non FTDNA tested however he has DYS462 = 12, DYS464a = 14-15-16-18 and the Scottish cluster DYS444 = 13, again he is 100% L720+ in my opinion

I have a Thom (Clan Chattan name) from Scotland who declined to test who I found in YSearch (BNDU8) who has the Scottish signature and again is 100% L720+ in my opinion

I have a Bothwell from Ireland who does not respond to emails which is a shame because this name can stem from Bothanius Kin of St Columba and he seems to have elements of both the Irish and Scottish L720 signature including the Scottish DYS444 = 13

I have two Irish O'Carroll's (28445, 200192) who have only tested to 37 markers but have all the elements of the Scottish L720 signature

Other points of interest, the surname Weir according to Scots Kith and Kin is not Norman but associated with Clan McNaughton or MacFarlane

Regarding McQuilkin, it is possible that this is simply a variation of McKilian which is a Clan Chattan name however the McQuilkin of Antrim were associated with the O'Neill's of Antrim

Regarding Morrow, this surname in Ireland can be a variation of the Ulster Murphy name

One the subject of the O'Neill's the name Neal was frequently used in Ireland together with Nail, Neel, Neale, Neyle, Neil, Niel etc most of these variation were used out of necessity because of persecution as an attempt to disguise their name, the Irish were forced to drop the O or Mac from their names during the (so-called) Famine times, In the case of my own Great Great Great Grandfather, he had six children and everyone of them had a different spelling variation of O'Neill such O'Nail, O'Neal, Neil, Neale, O'Neil so this was very frequent. I have studied thousands of O'Neill Baptismal records from the mid 1600's to the early 1800's and have seen so many differant variations, I have seen the O'Neill's of Ulster in St Columbs in Derry in the 1600's alternating their name between O'Neill and McNeil in the same family, there are not many Scottish McNeil's in Ireland and they never had any reason to drop the Mc from their names so that is a non-runner

Regarding the Neilon's in Ireland, this is almost exclusively a Clare name and I have found documented evidence that these are the same as the O'Neill's of Thomond who changed their name to Nihell, the L720 Neylon's are an old family from Clare and are the same Neilon's that were hereditary physicians to the O'Brien's of Thomond who were descended form Brian Boru, indeed there is an ancient connection between the O'Neill's of Ulster and the O'Briens dating back to Maolseachlainn of the Southern Ui Neill who was the High King of Ireland and this family frequently intermarried with the O'Briens

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Nealon

I believe the O'Neill L720 line is the actual DNA of St Columba of Iona and St Maolrubha of Applecross and this is Dal Riada/Dal Fiatach in origin as were the original Ui Neill of Ulster until they were deposed in the Eight Century

http://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/maelrubha-saint

oneillabu
08-19-2016, 07:24 PM
Hi Robert. thanks for the analysis, I already have these in my spreadsheet, 136568, 183551, 197174, 207482, 228771, 247731, 33803 and 47226

The Williams match I was aware of because Jonathan Farris has tried some time ago to see if they would test, they come from a similar area in North America as Jonathan and match very close, Farris is a Scottish name associated with Perthshire I think.

Regarding these markers, this is the point I was making regarding the O'Neill cluster and the differences with the Scottish/Irish cluster however in the Clan McInnes cluster you will see differant 464 values such as 14-14-15-16, 14-16-16-18, 14-14-15-16 and in the case of McPherson he has 14-15-16-17, the 413a value of the cluster is actually 21 not 22 however in the case of McLure he has a value of 23 which I believe is just a single mutation from 21. The 444 value of 13 is a key marker in determining the most likely Irish origin of the second line, we have O'Driscol, Ward, and two very likely O'Carroll's who have only tested to 37 markers. I would really like to see as many as possible L720 people upgrading to 111 markers which would help enormously

391 <= 10, 464a <= 14, 464c <= 16, 464d >= 18,
456 >= 17, 576 <= 17, 413a <= 22 and 444 >= 13

I am very reluctant to contact project groups about people testing because no matter how polite you are or what way you word the request it is down to the Administrator to contact the person and this does not happen in some cases even though they tell you the opposite, there are quiet a few McDonalds and Septs of McDonald like McCaul that are L720+ such as &KLMOQ &CZAPG &9hhxh taken from the McDonald project before it became top secret, this really annoys me that their Admin can access everyone else's results and do not reciprocate in kind, the only people they are letting down are their own members who have a right to know their origins.

There is a person in YSearch who tested with Sorensons whose ancestors came from Mayo, his surname is Rutledge which in Mayo is the strange Anglicisation of Red Chief, this name is associated with the original Kings of Donegal and the name Maolruadh an example being Prince Maolruaidh of Tir-Conall from over a thousand years ago, I contacted this Rutledge chap who declined to change to FTDNA on the grounds of cost however he told me that his ancestors Grave plot had both Rutledge and Mulderry side by side, now the name Mulderry is an Anglicisation of Maoldearg which also means Red Chief, this Rutledge I am almost 100% certain if L720+ and matches the O'Neill cluster with 464 = 15-15-16-18 and 444 =12 as well as DYS462 = 12 and all usual markers matching, this could possible be be the original line of St Maolruadh and St Columba, below is an entry from Religio Scotia

The statement that Colum's original name
was Fox (Crimthan) has been fully discussed elsewhere.^ But
it recalls to us that we have another saint said to be a descendant
of Niall in Scotland. Maolruadh, Malrubius, Malrube — Mulray
— Mourie — Maree. The first three spellings are Irish and show
that the writer had in his mind two words, maol, ' bald,' ruadh,
' red.' The second three spellings were explained by an old
residenter near Loch Maree in Ross-shire, where the saint is at
home, so to say, as meaning, "my king" {mo righ), or " the
great king " [a mhor righ). Now the sanctuary of this saint is
a small island with a spring in it over which there is a sacred
tree, in a loch. A commentator describes it as a genuine case
of a " divine king connected with an oak-tree and a wonder
working well."

Thanks for the info on L720

Leitir Fura
08-19-2016, 10:40 PM
'I believe I have firmly refuted this by pointing out unique STR and SNP mutations that the O'Neill cluster have that are absent from Scottish matches which means that there is no Scottish connection with one line of L720 based on the evidence to date.'

Can u expand on what you are saying above please.... absent from what Scottish matches ... and what are the two lines of L720 you are obviously referring to?

On the matter of an Irish association I don't think anyone refutes any possible Irish connection with L720 the object surely is to establish when TMCRA occurred and where it likely occurred.

With regard to my results from ScotlandDNA I gave them to you sometime back on this forum. If you are only going to deal with FTDNA results that is fine. What is the cost to test to 111 markers and I may get the test done to help with the cause if you need this detail as I already test positive for L720, but not S5488 (unless it has another handle)?

In the meantime I will let you get on with your important work and I wish you luck. When the jury is back in and lots more have tested I will accept whatever the finite proven answer is and I hope that with more definitive evidence others can get to it. Your answer to point one interests me in the meantime.

oneillabu
08-20-2016, 05:50 PM
'I believe I have firmly refuted this by pointing out unique STR and SNP mutations that the O'Neill cluster have that are absent from Scottish matches which means that there is no Scottish connection with one line of L720 based on the evidence to date.'

Can u expand on what you are saying above please.... absent from what Scottish matches ... and what are the two lines of L720 you are obviously referring to?

On the matter of an Irish association I don't think anyone refutes any possible Irish connection with L720 the object surely is to establish when TMCRA occurred and where it likely occurred.

With regard to my results from ScotlandDNA I gave them to you sometime back on this forum. If you are only going to deal with FTDNA results that is fine. What is the cost to test to 111 markers and I may get the test done to help with the cause if you need this detail as I already test positive for L720, but not S5488 (unless it has another handle)?

In the meantime I will let you get on with your important work and I wish you luck. When the jury is back in and lots more have tested I will accept whatever the finite proven answer is and I hope that with more definitive evidence others can get to it. Your answer to point one interests me in the meantime.


Can u expand on what you are saying above please.... absent from what Scottish matches ... and what are the two lines of L720 you are obviously referring to?
On the matter of an Irish association I don't think anyone refutes any possible Irish connection with L720 the object surely is to establish when TMCRA occurred and where it likely occurred.


Below are the first 25 markers for the O'Neill cluster
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18

Below are some of the Scottish People

Gillis
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 18

McIntosh
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 15 18

McPherson
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 17

Davidson
13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 18

McDonald
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 18

McLellan
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 13 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 15 16 18

Weir
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 18

McInnes
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 21 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14 14 15 16

If you look at the last four markers (DYS464) you can see that all the Scottish people have a value of 14 for the first of these four markers, this is particularly significant in the case of the McInnes people because they have quiet a few differant DYS464 combinations such as those shown below

14 14 15 16
14 14 16 16
14 16 16 18
14 15 16 18
14 14 16 17

This points to a much older ancestor for these McInnes people however none of the people with Scottish surnames have the 15-15-16-18 that the O'Neill cluster has, now you may argue that this may be a mutation to 15 from 14 for the O'Neill's however if we look at the marker DYS444 (the last one shown below) we find that we again have a marker value that is unique to the Scottish people as shown below

O'Neill Cluster

21 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12

All Scottish matches

21-23 16 10 12 12 15 8 13

Now the DYS444 marker is a very slow marker and can define an ancient cluster so we now have two markers that the Scottish people have that the O'Neill people do not have, if you combine this with the fact that there is a Genetic Distance of 13 between the O'Neill and Neylon match so it would require four differant mutations on two differant people who share a common ancestor of over 1000 years ago, then this completely eliminates the possibility that the O'Neill people originally had the Scottish signature and it mutated to its present value so therefore we have a separate L720 line for the O'Neill's.

So how long ago did this split take place, this is where testing to 111 markers comes in because the more people that test the larger the amount of people we have from which to calculate and average Genetic Distance, as stands at the moment there are only four L720 people who have tested to 111 including myself so for example if I check the Genetic Distance between myself and O'Driscol who has the Scottish signature I get a GD of 18 and if I do the same for McLellan I get a GD of 17 which straight away shows a consistency, now if we look at the FTDNA calculation for 111 markers to within the time-frame of surnames which is probably 800 years we find that a Genetic Distance of 10 will bring us back 800 years so if we were to use say a figure of 5 STR mutations for every 400 years we would need 20 STR mutations to bring us back 1600 years, the average for L720 so far from 3 people is 20 so you can see that this is very much within the time that the Dal Riada migration took place.


With regard to my results from ScotlandDNA I gave them to you sometime back on this forum. If you are only going to deal with FTDNA results that is fine. What is the cost to test to 111 markers and I may get the test done to help with the cause if you need this detail as I already test positive for L720, but not S5488 (unless it has another handle)?


If you do not know your STR markers then you really have no choice but to avail of one of the FTDNA sales such as the present one which gives you Family Finder and 67 marker test for $327 (link below), regarding S5488 because you already know that you are L720+ then you are S5488+ by default as well as all other SNP's between L720 and S5488

https://www.familytreedna.com/sale.aspx

Leitir Fura
08-21-2016, 05:25 AM
Thank you....
Test Candidate Genetic Distance Neill MacInnes Morvern 84U2X at 37 markers

McInnes Uig Skye QG5SX 3
MacInnes John Nova Scotia 3
MacQuilken Rathlin Isle XKNTX 3
McLure Angus b1749 4
MacDonald Peter Texas 4
McLellan Balemore Nth Uist R6V44 6
McLellan Uist 7
Weir 7
James Discoll Cork Ireland N44955 8
L720 unknown Ireland 10
MacInnes Paisley Renfrewshire WRPZN 11
MacInnes Moidart 65DKQ 11
MacInnes Ballachulish KA22E 12
MacInnes Mull R2E6A 13
Angus -Gamrie SDZ95 13
Keech (unknown) 7F6VW 13
O'Neill Limerick 32H76 13
MacInnes Argyle 84U2X 14
MacInnes (unknown) K2ZJC 14
MacInnes Tobermoray Mull SPDNP 17
MacInnes Prince Edward Island 556YV 17
MacInnnes GCQK9 18
MacInnes Bona Bornia JE5E2 18
MacInnes Ardtornich T3TKV 19
MacInnes Argyle DPHJS 19
O'Neill Blayney QSBZR 20
O'Neil Ireland NXQ7G 20
Cramer (unknown) UDMU5 26
MacMaster (unknown) FZ47S 26
MacInnes (unknown) 49ZK6 29
MacInnes *R1a1a 31
MacInnes Barra UN5C8 33


Please correct me if I have this wrong...

The first five on the list have a small genetic distance to L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern at only three (3) or four (4). Those at four (4) all appear to all have a common male ancestor with Neil dating from around 1500, at the time we know many McInnes’s migrated from Skye, and possibly elsewhere, while those with a distance of only three (3), at around the time of the first Jacobite Uprising. Does this suggest that the MacQuilken on Rathlin Isle’s may have escaped to that island and changed his name around this time?

The more interesting, however, is the last McInnes on Barra who has the greatest genetic distance between himself and L720 Neil McInnes from Morvern, that relates to TMRCA being back around 4060 years (33 at 116) = 2050BC. This would have been around the time our Beaker ancestors first arrived in Britain, indicating there was not any later genetic association between McInnes in Morvern and the line of McInnes on Barra. With the introduction of clann names not coming into vogue until the 11th century this suggests, (along with others on the list) that there is no direct association between bloodlines and the clann name.

Likewise with the Irish O’Neill with a genetic distance of 20 representing a TMRCA back around 55 generations (or 1925 years), at between the 1st century AD, (at 35 years per generation), or 365 AD (at 30 years per generation). This looks like it lines up with the initial migrants from Ireland that formed the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata, but that may not necessarily be the case. Those McInnes’s with a genetic distance of 17 to 19 represent a generational gap of around 47 to 51 generations and are more in line with the dating for the formation of Dal Riata, while O’Neill and Keech at a genetic distance of 13 represent around 28 generations or 1035 to 1175. This is around the time of actual clann naming.

L720 Driscoll of Cork in Ireland, with only a genetic distance of 8, with L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern, indicates TMCRA as being around 26 generations back or around 1100 to 1250, or in the time of Somerled.

Finally . Should my ScotlandDNA STR results show up S5488.. as they show up 7200 and L720?

Your thoughts please...

Leitir Fura
08-21-2016, 05:28 AM
Thank you....
Test Candidate Genetic Distance Neill MacInnes Morvern 84U2X at 37 markers

McInnes Uig Skye QG5SX 3
MacInnes John Nova Scotia 3
MacQuilken Rathlin Isle XKNTX 3
McLure Angus b1749 4
MacDonald Peter Texas 4
McLellan Balemore Nth Uist R6V44 6
McLellan Uist 7
Weir 7
James Discoll Cork Ireland N44955 8
L720 unknown Ireland 10
MacInnes Paisley Renfrewshire WRPZN 11
MacInnes Moidart 65DKQ 11
MacInnes Ballachulish KA22E 12
MacInnes Mull R2E6A 13
Angus -Gamrie SDZ95 13
Keech (unknown) 7F6VW 13
O'Neill Limerick 32H76 13
MacInnes Argyle 84U2X 14
MacInnes (unknown) K2ZJC 14
MacInnes Tobermoray Mull SPDNP 17
MacInnes Prince Edward Island 556YV 17
MacInnnes GCQK9 18
MacInnes Bona Bornia JE5E2 18
MacInnes Ardtornich T3TKV 19
MacInnes Argyle DPHJS 19
O'Neill Blayney QSBZR 20
O'Neil Ireland NXQ7G 20
Cramer (unknown) UDMU5 26
MacMaster (unknown) FZ47S 26
MacInnes (unknown) 49ZK6 29
MacInnes *R1a1a 31
MacInnes Barra UN5C8 33


Please correct me if I have this wrong...

The first five on the list have a small genetic distance to L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern at only three (3) or four (4). Those at four (4) all appear to all have a common male ancestor with Neil dating from around 1500, at the time we know many McInnes’s migrated from Skye, and possibly elsewhere, while those with a distance of only three (3), at around the time of the first Jacobite Uprising. Does this suggest that the MacQuilken on Rathlin Isle’s may have escaped to that island and changed his name around this time?

The more interesting, however, is the last McInnes on Barra who has the greatest genetic distance between himself and L720 Neil McInnes from Morvern, that relates to TMRCA being back around 4060 years (33 at 116) = 2050BC. This would have been around the time our Beaker ancestors first arrived in Britain, indicating there was not any later genetic association between McInnes in Morvern and the line of McInnes on Barra. With the introduction of clann names not coming into vogue until the 11th century this suggests, (along with others on the list) that there is no direct association between bloodlines and the clann name.

Likewise with the Irish O’Neill with a genetic distance of 20 representing a TMRCA back around 55 generations (or 1925 years), at between the 1st century AD, (at 35 years per generation), or 365 AD (at 30 years per generation). This looks like it lines up with the initial migrants from Ireland that formed the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata, but that may not necessarily be the case. Those McInnes’s with a genetic distance of 17 to 19 represent a generational gap of around 47 to 51 generations and are more in line with the dating for the formation of Dal Riata, while O’Neill and Keech at a genetic distance of 13 represent around 28 generations or 1035 to 1175. This is around the time of actual clann naming.

L720 Driscoll of Cork in Ireland, with only a genetic distance of 8, with L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern, indicates TMCRA as being around 26 generations back or around 1100 to 1250, or in the time of Somerled.

Finally . Should my ScotlandDNA STR results show up S5488.. as they show up 7200 and L720?

Your thoughts please...

Leitir Fura
08-21-2016, 05:34 AM
Thank you....
Test Candidate Genetic Distance Neill MacInnes Morvern 84U2X at 37 markers

McInnes Uig Skye QG5SX 3
MacInnes John Nova Scotia 3
MacQuilken Rathlin Isle XKNTX 3
McLure Angus b1749 4
MacDonald Peter Texas 4
McLellan Balemore Nth Uist R6V44 6
McLellan Uist 7
Weir 7
James Discoll Cork Ireland N44955 8
L720 unknown Ireland 10
MacInnes Paisley Renfrewshire WRPZN 11
MacInnes Moidart 65DKQ 11
MacInnes Ballachulish KA22E 12
MacInnes Mull R2E6A 13
Angus -Gamrie SDZ95 13
Keech (unknown) 7F6VW 13
O'Neill Limerick 32H76 13
MacInnes Argyle 84U2X 14
MacInnes (unknown) K2ZJC 14
MacInnes Tobermoray Mull SPDNP 17
MacInnes Prince Edward Island 556YV 17
MacInnnes GCQK9 18
MacInnes Bona Bornia JE5E2 18
MacInnes Ardtornich T3TKV 19
MacInnes Argyle DPHJS 19
O'Neill Blayney QSBZR 20
O'Neil Ireland NXQ7G 20
Cramer (unknown) UDMU5 26
MacMaster (unknown) FZ47S 26
MacInnes (unknown) 49ZK6 29
MacInnes *R1a1a 31
MacInnes Barra UN5C8 33


Please correct me if I have this wrong...

The first five on the list have a small genetic distance to L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern at only three (3) or four (4). Those at four (4) all appear to all have a common male ancestor with Neil dating from around 1500, at the time we know many McInnes’s migrated from Skye, and possibly elsewhere, while those with a distance of only three (3), at around the time of the first Jacobite Uprising. Does this suggest that the MacQuilken on Rathlin Isle’s may have escaped to that island and changed his name around this time?

The more interesting, however, is the last McInnes on Barra who has the greatest genetic distance between himself and L720 Neil McInnes from Morvern, that relates to TMRCA being back around 4060 years (33 at 116) = 2050BC. This would have been around the time our Beaker ancestors first arrived in Britain, indicating there was not any later genetic association between McInnes in Morvern and the line of McInnes on Barra. With the introduction of clann names not coming into vogue until the 11th century this suggests, (along with others on the list) that there is no direct association between bloodlines and the clann name.

Likewise with the Irish O’Neill with a genetic distance of 20 representing a TMRCA back around 55 generations (or 1925 years), at between the 1st century AD, (at 35 years per generation), or 365 AD (at 30 years per generation). This looks like it lines up with the initial migrants from Ireland that formed the Scottish kingdom of Dal Riata, but that may not necessarily be the case. Those McInnes’s with a genetic distance of 17 to 19 represent a generational gap of around 47 to 51 generations and are more in line with the dating for the formation of Dal Riata, while O’Neill and Keech at a genetic distance of 13 represent around 28 generations or 1035 to 1175. This is around the time of actual clann naming.

L720 Driscoll of Cork in Ireland, with only a genetic distance of 8, with L720 Neil McInnes of Morvern, indicates TMCRA as being around 26 generations back or around 1100 to 1250, or in the time of Somerled.

Finally . Should my ScotlandDNA STR results show up S5488.. as they show up 7200 and L720?

Your thoughts please...

oneillabu
08-21-2016, 08:00 PM
It may be a useful exercise between L720 McInnes people to check them at 37 markers however I would try to avoid speculating otherwise even at 67 markers because it can change dramatically on one marker alone for example DYS710 can fluctuate wildly, take Doyle who is S7200+ and myself there are five mutations on this one marker alone, he has a value of 32 and I have a value of 37, if you look at the GD between Doyle and me at 37 markers we have a massive 15 mutations however there are only 2 mutations between us on the next 30 markers bringing the total at 67 to 17 so you can see how unreliable comparisons at these lower levels are, this is why I only bother with 111 marker comparisons because they give a much more accurate picture. There is absolutely no point in making comparisons between non DF21 people and DF21+ people, these comparisons are meaningless

I don't know if ScotlandDNA test for S5488 however I would not worry about the upstream branches, just concentrate on L720 for now

RobertCasey
08-25-2016, 05:04 AM
I attempted to chart all the L720 tested submissions and the L720 predicted submissions at 67 markers. It appears that all the Irish submissions fell into the older part of the haplotree under L720 and most of the Scottish submissions fell under Z16305. This chart is still probably missing two or three valid predicted submissions but I would love to hear what you think about the progression of YSTRs in this haplotree:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/temp/L720_Chart_20160823D.pdf

Leitir Fura
08-25-2016, 11:50 PM
This is brilliant and it has inspired me as an L720+McInnes to get a FFDNA test done to 111 markers so we can see where the McInnes's fit in.
The more you add to this and update it, it will truely tell the story as Sean says, and to then home in on TMCRA for L720 and where it occurred, but from what you have I take it that it falls in line with what Sean is saying...

I take it that you did not include L720+ 
MacInnes 
Niel c1750 Morvern FTDNA 
197174 due to not sufficient markers having been tested?

RobertCasey
08-27-2016, 06:18 PM
I take it that you did not include L720+ 
MacInnes 
Niel c1750 Morvern FTDNA 
197174 due to not sufficient markers having been tested?

I only include 67 markers as merging in 37 marker submissions can be too problematic. Eventually, I will look into adding 111 marker data as well but this whole process is very manual in nature and needs to be automated. I have written up a functional specification for coding this tool and I am looking for a programmer to help develop this tool.

I am not related to L720, but have always found this YSNP to be very interesting to analyze due to its limited scope for a predictable YSNP, its challenging signature to develop and its lack of divergence from other haplogroups. I originally used a eight marker signature and then switched to a nine marker signature. After completing the chart, I find that the modal for this group is definitely not the same as the signatures associated with this branch. As you can see, L720 has only a signature of six markers but Z16305 has a signature of nine markers. Since there are more Z16305 predicted submissions, the modal implies that L720 is nine markers which the chart finds to be not true after all.

Leitir Fura
08-29-2016, 01:59 AM
For clarity what are the specific six markers of L720, also can u expand on your comment..

'After completing the chart, I find that the modal for this group is definitely not the same as the signatures associated with this branch'.

Any help in understanding is appreciated... Thanks

RobertCasey
08-29-2016, 06:29 AM
For L720, the signature is:

391 (11>10), 464c (17>16), 464d (17>18), 456 (16>17), 576 (18>17), 413a (23>21)

See the chart for the evolution to Z16305 which is nine markers:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L21/temp/L720_Chart_20160823D.pdf

Leitir Fura
10-16-2017, 06:08 AM
It has been over a year since you sent through your excellent chart...Have you had a chance to update it by any chance, and have you learnt anything more about L720 and its downstream cousins.. ???

Regards

Leitir Fura

Leitir Fura
01-22-2019, 12:05 AM
My McInnes results to 111 markers are... Can you tell me where these lie on your chart please

DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385,DYS426,DYS388,DY S439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II,DYS458,DYS459,DYS455, DYS454,DYS447,DYS437,DYS448,DYS449,DYS464,DYS460,Y-GATA-H4,YCAII,DYS456,DYS607,DYS576,DYS570,CDY,DYS442,DY S438,DYS531,DYS578,DYF395S1,DYS590,DYS537,DYS641,D YS472,DYF406S1,DYS511,DYS425,DYS413,DYS557,DYS594, DYS436,DYS490,DYS534,DYS450,DYS444,DYS481,DYS520,D YS446,DYS617,DYS568,DYS487,DYS572,DYS640,DYS492,DY S565,DYS710,DYS485,DYS632,DYS495,DYS540,DYS714,DYS 716,DYS717,DYS505,DYS556,DYS549,DYS589,DYS522,DYS4 94,DYS533,DYS636,DYS575,DYS638,DYS462,DYS452,DYS44 5,Y-GATA-A10,DYS463,DYS441,Y-GGAAT-1B07,DYS525,DYS712,DYS593,DYS650,DYS532,DYS715,DYS 504,DYS513,DYS561,DYS552,DYS726,DYS635,DYS587,DYS6 43,DYS497,DYS510,DYS434,DYS461,DYS435
" 13"," 24"," 14"," 10"," 11-14"," 12"," 12"," 12"," 14"," 13"," 30"," 20"," 9-10"," 11"," 11"," 25"," 15"," 19"," 30"," 14-15-16-18"," 11"," 11"," 19-23"," 17"," 15"," 18"," 16"," 36-38"," 12"," 12"," 11"," 9"," 15-16"," 8"," 10"," 10"," 8"," 10"," 9"," 12"," 21-23"," 16"," 10"," 12"," 12"," 13"," 8"," 13"," 22"," 20"," 13"," 12"," 11"," 13"," 11"," 11"," 12"," 12"," 35"," 15"," 9"," 16"," 12"," 24"," 26"," 19"," 12"," 11"," 14"," 12"," 12"," 9"," 13"," 12"," 10"," 11"," 12"," 30"," 12"," 12"," 24"," 13"," 10"," 10"," 19"," 15"," 18"," 12"," 24"," 17"," 12"," 15"," 24"," 12"," 23"," 18"," 10"," 14"," 17"," 9"," 13"," 11"