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gstockman
05-09-2017, 07:58 PM
The YFull FAQ on STR interpretations/matches says "close matches are matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.1, and distant matches are matches with genetic distance of 0.1 to 0.2."
At the moment I have one "close" match. It's calculated to be a genetic distance of 0.028, or 11/389.
Can anyone with one or more close STR matches at YFull as well as some knowledge of relationship, such as 6th or 10th cousin, comment on how close a relationship exists for 0.028?

Maximus
05-30-2017, 02:05 PM
Very close... This is approximately if it were 3/111 distance by ftdna. I think empirical ~350-400 ybp. For accurate calculation, it is necessary to know the mutation rates of each marker from those 389.

gotten
05-30-2017, 03:23 PM
You can use the McDonald TMRCA calculator: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm and fill in the amount of markers, the non-matching markers according to the infinite alleles method (any difference is only counted as 1, which is actually used by Yfull) and guess a mutation rate. You can use the one for Y111 (0.0026) as an estimate.

11 out of 389 is between 2 and 9 generations ago with 90% confidence (if we assume the mutation rate of 0.0026 holds for 500 markers and 31 years per generation)

For reference, I have a match of 11 out of 426 that has a SNP-based TMRCA of 200 YBP and the shared ancestor was actually born in 1766.

asquecco
06-01-2017, 10:36 AM
The YFull FAQ on STR interpretations/matches says "close matches are matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.1, and distant matches are matches with genetic distance of 0.1 to 0.2."
At the moment I have one "close" match. It's calculated to be a genetic distance of 0.028, or 11/389.
Can anyone with one or more close STR matches at YFull as well as some knowledge of relationship, such as 6th or 10th cousin, comment on how close a relationship exists for 0.028?

In my case, a Kit [B] with genealogical MRCA born 1606 is GD 3/111 and 9/327 with my Kit [A].
With the same surname I have another close match [Kit C] with GD 4/111 and 19/353 and I'm trying to guess when our MRCA was born.
Considering the common 304 STRs out of 500 STRs for the 3 BIG Y Kits, I have:
KITs A&B: difference 9/304 => genealogical MRCA 1606
KITs A&C: difference 14/304 => genealogical MRCA ??
KITs B&C: difference 15/304 => genealogical MRCA ??
By the way it seems to me YFull counts as GD = 1 a STR differing 2 (eg: 25 vs 27)

MitchellSince1893
06-01-2017, 03:19 PM
A case study on the 111 marker test that may be helpful

http://linealarboretum.blogspot.com/2016/07/are-111-marker-tests-better-at.html


CONCLUSION

While 111 markers aided in fine tuning our connectivity to those sharing our genetic and genealogical roots, genetic distance was not an accurate predictor of most relationships. Outliers can and do happen, as experienced with a GD=0; however, 78% of the participants at a GD=0 fell within the predicted level of six generations or less with a p ≤ .01, Two did not, and as explained earlier, this was due to convergence. We have seen close relatives (5th cousins and closer) having genetic distances up to 5, while 13th cousins, once removed have a GD=0.

Basta
03-18-2018, 08:23 PM
I have zero close matches, the closest distant match is:

Compared STRs: 352
Differences: 38
Distance: 0.108

How close/far is that?

alhan
06-29-2018, 07:46 AM
The STR results for my VCF shows the closest match at 31 difference in 230 compared STRs which has a distance of 0.135.

I've used the TRMCA Calculator referred in this thread and and the bars show between 12 and 29 generation.
Assuming worst case which is 29th generation and again assuming 31 years per generation I got ~900 years.

Is this calculation true for TMRCA?

And my second question; when my BAM file is full processed, is it more likely to have a close match?

gotten
06-29-2018, 09:33 PM
I've used the TRMCA Calculator referred in this thread and and the bars show between 12 and 29 generation.
Assuming worst case which is 29th generation and again assuming 31 years per generation I got ~900 years.

Is this calculation true for TMRCA?

And my second question; when my BAM file is full processed, is it more likely to have a close match?

The calculation only holds if we can assume the mutation rate of Y111 is usable for all Yfull STRs. I'm pretty sure that is not the case and likely many of the Yfull STRs are slower than Y111. So the true TMRCA will be longer ago. But it's a first guess to getting a TMRCA from all Yfull STRs.

When your bam is fully processed I will expect that some close STR matches will disappear as a lot of the faster mutating STRs will become available and push the Genetic Distance beyond the threshold of 0.1 (faster mutating STRs generally have a larger number of repeats, which are more difficult to measure).

firemonkey
06-29-2018, 11:08 PM
No close matches. Closest distant 272 38 0.14

Cofgene
06-29-2018, 11:44 PM
The calculation only holds if we can assume the mutation rate of Y111 is usable for all Yfull STRs. I'm pretty sure that is not the case and likely many of the Yfull STRs are slower than Y111. So the true TMRCA will be longer ago. But it's a first guess to getting a TMRCA from all Yfull STRs.

When your bam is fully processed I will expect that some close STR matches will disappear as a lot of the faster mutating STRs will become available and push the Genetic Distance beyond the threshold of 0.1 (faster mutating STRs generally have a larger number of repeats, which are more difficult to measure).


The processing of the BAM by YFull will be no different than what is done by FTDNA. The restriction on what size of STRs can be extracted is the length of the sequencing read. That has not changed. YFull's analysis is a regurgitation of what FTDNA has provided in terms of STRs and variants.

Individuals will not get a "closer" match unless there is a result from a non-FTDNA supplied BAM present in the comparison. You are initially more likely to have a result present in the FTDNA system since the majority of the results originate from that supplier.

JonikW
06-30-2018, 10:27 AM
The processing of the BAM by YFull will be no different than what is done by FTDNA. The restriction on what size of STRs can be extracted is the length of the sequencing read. That has not changed. YFull's analysis is a regurgitation of what FTDNA has provided in terms of STRs and variants.

Individuals will not get a "closer" match unless there is a result from a non-FTDNA supplied BAM present in the comparison. You are initially more likely to have a result present in the FTDNA system since the majority of the results originate from that supplier.

My only Big Y SNP match isn't an STR match on FTDNA but is on YFull, where he appears as my only close match. Someone kindly explained on the Z140 thread here why that's the case. Way beyond my own understanding.

alhan
06-30-2018, 10:34 AM
I have just Y12 in FTDNA matching algorithm. Close to 400 matches (exact matches and one step for Y12).

Since FTDNA does not provide matches for STR panel 2 to 5 for BigY clients without Y111 like myself. I do not really know if I have any close matches.

This is why even though I am a FTDNA customer, YFull provides me the real deal.

Going back to TMRCA, the calculation I have with YFull STRs is about 900 years. Ok lets assume faster mutation rates and double the TMRCA estimate. 1800 years STR TMRCA estimate is still lower than my SNP TMRCA estimation of 2400 years.

I s it wrong to compare STR estimate with SNP estimation?

07-08-2018, 07:08 PM
Does anybody know how long it takes to get your full STRs results and matches, once you have uploaded your Bam file, and upgraded from vcf?

07-09-2018, 09:33 AM
Nudge up.

JonikW
07-09-2018, 04:04 PM
Nudge up.

I got my STR results and matches a couple of weeks after initial SNP results.

07-09-2018, 05:36 PM
I got my STR results and matches a couple of weeks after initial SNP results.

Thanks, on my upgraded menu I got an STR tab, and it says processing, but saying that when I look at my STR menu, I actually have 14 distant matches. Think these STR results though are from my vcf, not my updated BAM. Little bit confused what it all means tbh.

07-11-2018, 05:18 PM
Looks like YFull was reading my mind or post? This was posted on their STR page today :-

“Dear friends! We apologize for the delay of the STR results for the VCF upgrades. This is due to the fact that we have received a large number of BAM files at a time, and our processing for the highest quality includes manual quality control of alleles. Right now we are working on improving our innovative STR engine. We believe that we will finish it in 3 months and publish the STRs results extracted from the BAM file. Hope for your understanding. Together we make the service even more technologically and better! (11 Jul 2018)*

msmarjoribanks
07-11-2018, 06:55 PM
I just checked. Looks like two weeks between it being received and downloaded and SNP results and another 3 weeks after that for STR results and matches.

07-11-2018, 07:15 PM
I just checked. Looks like two weeks between it being received and downloaded and SNP results and another 3 weeks after that for STR results and matches.
From yfulls msg, because of the large number of BAM upgrades from vcf, we could be looking at October time.

msmarjoribanks
07-11-2018, 07:28 PM
Wow, that's going to require some patience!

LarryMc
07-11-2018, 07:53 PM
My “close” str matches per YFull aren’t valid as SNP comparisons show no common ancestor!

msmarjoribanks
07-14-2018, 07:37 PM
Are you sure you have looked are back far enough? (I'm not sure what you mean by SNP comparisons in this context, so might be missing something.) If you read upthread in this thread you can see that even close matches may have the MRCA quite far back, although in genealogical time.

This is useful: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm

07-15-2018, 07:08 PM
My “close” str matches per YFull aren’t valid as SNP comparisons show no common ancestor!

With my distant matches, I note we only share the snp R-Z283 but then deviate, I think the age of that snp is over 4000 yrs old.
But YFull says they are working on their STR engine, not sure what could change for your close matches. What is the estimate for the age of common ancestor?

alhan
07-24-2018, 07:47 AM
I still feel like I am lost.

I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

Here are the facts;
- I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
- I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
- I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
- I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
- I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
- I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

And questions;

Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

- Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
- As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
- I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
- Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
- I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
- This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?

07-24-2018, 10:39 AM
I still feel like I am lost.

I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

Here are the facts;
- I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
- I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
- I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
- I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
- I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
- I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

And questions;

Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

- Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
- As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
- I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
- Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
- I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
- This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?

I am in the same boat as you, in trying to understand all this.
I was under the impression that the snp are the real deal, so this would be your closest match. Especially Since the STR, divert down a different branch in your haplotype tree.

I believe YFull are working on upgrading your STR from your BAM, and changing the STR engine software, so could be by October, all your STR matches disappear or change, but I am no expert.

Hope someone who is willl pipe up here.

07-24-2018, 10:40 AM
I still feel like I am lost.

I would appreciate if one can shed some light on this.

Here are the facts;
- I have done Y12 and then BigY with FTDNA
- I do not have a BigY match on FTDNA system (due to 30 nonmatching variants constraint)
- I have loaded my VCF to YFull (because of delays in FTDNA BAM submittals)
- I have got my SNP matches on YFull (my closest match's TMRCA 2500 ybp)
- I have recently upgraded to Y111 and waiting for my results (I wonder if I will have any close YDNA matches and what it will mean)
- I have started getting STR matches in YFull (mostly distant ones (38 distant matches)

And questions;

Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

- Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??
- As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?
- I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?
- Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?
- I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?
- This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?

I am in the same boat as you, in trying to understand all this.
I was under the impression that the snp are the real deal, so this would be your closest match. Especially Since the STR, divert down a different branch in your haplotype tree.

I believe YFull are working on upgrading your STR from your BAM, and changing the STR engine software, so could be by October, all your STR matches disappear or change, but I am no expert.

Hope someone who is willl pipe up here.

deadly77
07-24-2018, 11:16 AM
Close matches are defined by YFull as matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.1, and distant matches as matches with a genetic distance of 0.1 to 0.2. This is not to be confused with the genetic distance used by FTDNA in their STR matches. The formula at YFull for calculating genetic distance is the number of differences divided by the number of Compared STRs. For example: 49/392 = 0.125. https://www.yfull.com/faq/str-matches/

So this is a back of the envelope calculation that doesn't take account of the mutation rates of individual STRs. We have a fair bit of an idea on the mutation rates of several of the Y111 STRs at FTDNA as they have been compared in databases and projects over the years - some are fast mutating markers, some are very stable and slow mutating. We don't have a lot of knowledge currently about the mutation rates of additional markers outside of Y111 than can be extracted from the BAM by YFull or the Y500 by FTDNA. Some of these may be fast mutating, so you can get a match with someone through a back mutation or a parallel mutation , some of these may be slow mutating STR markers and so you can match with someone because the marker hasn't changed through the generations while SNP mutations have occurred in the lines of descent. In both cases the STR data could make a relationship between two samples appear to be closer than it is compared to the SNP data (STR convergence) . So it is possible to get a close STR match to someone who isn't a close SNP match. It's also possible to work the other way where a SNP match has enough mutations that move the relationship from close to distant under this criteria (STR divergence). YFull only includes samples that have an estimated age of 5000 ybp or younger (using TMRCA from the YTree) in the STR matches report, so you shouldn't get anything super wacky like a R1b individual matching a I1 individual, but there is scope to match people within a overall subclade branch that may not necessarily be your own terminal.

Until we have a better idea about the mutation rate of the extra STRs, I'd focus on the SNP data as more reliable and then look into the STR data of the SNP matches to see if there can be a bit more fine tuning. For the STR close matches that are not SNP matches, I'd put looking at those on the backburner as more likely to be false positives due to STR convergence.

msmarjoribanks
07-24-2018, 01:15 PM
Actually I have one critical question at this point. I am pretty sure that this has been discussed I will ask it any way.

- Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??

SNP tells you your specific subclade. It's important for understanding ancient origins, although we don't yet know enough about some subclades that are less common. Eventually it should be refined enough that your closest SNP matches and closest STR matches will likely overlap, and your closest SNP matches will be meaningful (some are now, as with some that have been attached to clans), but for a great many of us our closest SNP match is a very long time ago (your 2500 ybp), so that is interesting in trying to start understanding ancient origins or migration patterns (my dad's is even longer ago, and I think it's quite possible many people in France who aren't testing would be matches as DF63 and its branches seem to be a bit more continental than some other subclades of L21) so it can be very frustrating.


- As I stated above I have three SNP matches in YFull, closest one's TMRCA is 2500 ybp, and he is not an STR match in YFull, why?

Not a close enough match. 2500 ybp is very distant.


I do share the last step of my haplogroup with my SNP match I know this is important but should I consider my SNP match as the closest possible YDNA match to me?

Until you get closert SNP matches, your STR matches (who haven't also done BigY -- I don't think this applies if they've done BigY, see below, then it just shows you more about how close they are) are likely going to be closer and more helpful for testing, but sounds like your subclade is rarer so you won't have particularly close matches or not many. Sometimes, though, you get close STR matches that aren't SNP matches just because they haven't done BigY. My dad's closest STR matches on FTDNA (37 with 0, 2 and 3 GB, 67 with 6 and 7 GD) haven't done BigY, for example. And only the 37 with 0GD is likely to be close and its hard to say without more than a 37 on his part.


- Today I've got a close STR match in YFull with a distance of 0.1 (231 compared STRs, 23 difference). How close is this?

I don't remember off-hand, but the link I posted in my prior post gives information. I vaguely recall that it's so-called genealogical time but can vary a lot, from pretty close to MRCA of 500 years back. But check the link!


- I already have read the posts in this thread and according to the TMRCA calculator suggested in the previous pages "this match has a chance of being 16th generation (with a probability of 11%)" what does this mean?

Is this from my link? Check the box that says create list, and it should tell you the change of the match being at a certain generation or before. So -- without getting into the weeds -- if you have 111 match and 3 GD, it will say it's 1.6% chance of being 1 generation back, but 48% chance of being no more than 5 generations back, and 96% chance of being no more than 12 generations back. But that still could mean a long way back. If you put in your numbers from YFull it will give you an estimate like that.

I put in your 23 and 231, and, yeah, got 1.6% at 10 generations, 46% at 16 generations, and 96% at 23 generations, so quite far back, and you can also look at the age of your common subclade (from the SNP) to get an estimate cap on distance.


- This close STR match of YFull has a different subclade. He is R-YP4078, and I am R-FGC64132. The sequence is same for both of us down until R-Z282. Then my match differs to be R-Z282 > R-Z280 > R-Z24902 > R-YP561 > R-YP4094 and my line goes like this R-Z282 > R-Y17491 > R-YP4858 > R-FGC64132. Is it possible to have a closer STR match then an SNP match?

If he hasn't done the tests, yes. But if you've done the tests, then your SNP match would seem like he must be closer -- but I'd like other opinions on this, since I'm not sure, I just can't see how it could be otherwise.

alhan
07-25-2018, 11:20 AM
I put in your 23 and 231, and, yeah, got 1.6% at 10 generations, 46% at 16 generations, and 96% at 23 generations, so quite far back, and you can also look at the age of your common subclade (from the SNP) to get an estimate cap on distance.


Thank you very much for the detailed answer appreciate that.

According to the TMRCA calculator you referred the calculations tell me that 96 percent chance of being in the last 23 generations.
Can I assume 31 years per generation and tell that 23x31 = 713 years (as a very rough figure, ignoring the fact that the mutation rates differ and all other details) for TMRCA according to STR variation.

700 years something quite far back but still seems pretty close to me, at least closer than what I expected. Especially considering that our common SNP lines differed about 4600 years ago.

I have found another calculator that is in line with SNP aging. It is right here;

http://www.dna.cfsna.net/HAP/MLE.htm

Here are the results;

Generations Ago 63 < 87.8 < 124
Years Ago 1950 < 2720 < 3840
Year of Birth 1891 BC < 761 BC < 10 AD
Probability TMRCA = MLE 2.2%
τ << 1 0.11

2720 years for TMRCA sounds more appropriate. But I am not in a position to judge how these calculators work and compare, so I will leave it as it is. And wait for YFull to fully process my BAM file and give final STR set.

msmarjoribanks
07-25-2018, 12:13 PM
It's all a huge estimate, so I'd think the greater distance is likely correct given the SNP results.

MacUalraig
07-25-2018, 05:07 PM
- Where should I look for matches, which one is more important and which one tells me what??


Firstly I would await the BAM analysis and then only look at the SNP match list and ignore everyone who differs from your terminal haplogroup (unless maybe the one step removed branch is known to be very recent eg << 1000y).

The YFull STR match list suffers from the same problem as the FTDNA one, it jumbles up people with conflicting haplogroups. Arguably it is worse since everyone gets a slightly different set of markers for comparison. The only thing worth doing with it is manually picking out the entries that again, match your terminal haplogroup (or you could filter them in a spreadsheet if you prefer).

msmarjoribanks
07-25-2018, 05:51 PM
This got me interested in checking out my dad's matches again.

SNP -- interestingly the terminal subclade is one up from the one he gets at The Big Tree and FTDNA. The match is the closest one I see at The Big Tree, though, with a country of origin = Cuba (so probably Spain before that), and TMRCA of 3500 (so not close!).

STRs -- no close matches, of course. Distant matches have countries of origin from all over: Scotland, England, Czech Republic, Sweden, Ireland, Denmark, Germany, France, many more. Sigh. The SNP match isn't my closest distance; he's .151, and there are about 17 closer ones, with the closest at .132. That closest one is still only 1% chance of a match within 14 generations, and 95% chance within 28 generations. Checking subclade, he's a subclade of DF13, and my dad is a subclade of DF63, so basically they are both L21, which is not a close match at all. Probably some coincidences making the STR match look closer than it really is.

I wish there was a way to filter out STR matches that didn't match my dad's subclade down to a certain level, although probably not just the terminal given how few there are. I'd at least like to have just DF63, and then maybe more after that (the subsets of DF63 that might be interesting would be BY592 or CTS5454).

Basta
08-03-2018, 02:40 PM
Are you sure you have looked are back far enough? (I'm not sure what you mean by SNP comparisons in this context, so might be missing something.) If you read upthread in this thread you can see that even close matches may have the MRCA quite far back, although in genealogical time.

This is useful: http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm
How to use this with FTDNA Y-STR matches and Big Y matches?

Basta
08-03-2018, 02:54 PM
I have found another calculator that is in line with SNP aging. It is right here;

http://www.dna.cfsna.net/HAP/MLE.htm


Is this OK approach for genetic distance 1 on 25 markers (FTDNA)?

Input:


Compared STRs 25
Genetic Difference 1
Mutation Rate 0.0015 somewhere I read there is one change every 20 generations
Years Per Generation 31
Age of Testers 60


Result:

Generations Ago 5 < 13.6 < 65
Years Ago 160 < 420 < 2020
Year of Birth 61 BC < 1540 AD < 1800 AD
Probability TMRCA = MLE 2.7%
τ << 1 0.04

alhan
08-07-2018, 06:26 AM
Is this OK approach for genetic distance 1 on 25 markers (FTDNA)?

Input:


Compared STRs 25
Genetic Difference 1
Mutation Rate 0.0015 somewhere I read there is one change every 20 generations
Years Per Generation 31
Age of Testers 60


Result:

Generations Ago 5 < 13.6 < 65
Years Ago 160 < 420 < 2020
Year of Birth 61 BC < 1540 AD < 1800 AD
Probability TMRCA = MLE 2.7%
τ << 1 0.04

I am not an expert on this obviously. But I don't think 25 markers will be enough to use this calculator effectively (or the TIP report in FTDNA on that respect).
But I do not have a scientific explanation, just gut feeling.

Besides TIP on FTDNA still seems kind of irrelevant in terms of generations. My closest STR matches on FTDNA are YDNA25 matches with two step distance; TIP report tells me 90% chance of having a common ancestor within 17 generations. (Around 500 years??)
When I use Fergus calculator I get;

Generations Ago 28 < 69.5 < 219
Years Ago 870 < 2150 < 6790
Year of Birth 4831 BC < 201 BC < 1090 AD
Probability TMRCA = MLE 0.8%
τ << 1 0.08

FTDNA's 17 generations vs Fergus's 70 generations.

My gut feeling tells me it should be closer to Fergus's estimation. 17 generations imply around 500 years which is pretty low. Around 2000 years seem more likely.

firemonkey
10-16-2018, 04:30 AM
Am reviving this as have now got close STR match/same haplogroup E-Y45878 . STR distance 0.068 . Is it possible to get a better estimate of TMRCA with this?

firemonkey
10-17-2018, 03:21 AM
Bump. Can any kind person answer my question.

12-12-2018, 07:01 PM
So looks like Yfull have completed their new STR engine, I now have zero close and distant matches, anybody else care to comment?

Dave-V
12-12-2018, 11:53 PM
Am reviving this as have now got close STR match/same haplogroup E-Y45878 . STR distance 0.068 . Is it possible to get a better estimate of TMRCA with this?

Apologies [email protected], I just saw firemonkey's earlier question and wanted to address that.

There isn't a straightforward way to get TMRCA estimation from YFull's STR match report. That's not really their fault, the problem is the inconsistent reporting of STR values makes it difficult to compare across tests - some have 22 differences out of 395 compared STRs, while another has 22 differences out of 388 compared STRs, etc, etc. The overall mutation rate will vary considerably if you don't have a consistent set of STRs to use. So they report their "distance" measure as a loose correlation to relatedness.

What you'd really need is not the overall mutation rate but every individual mutation rate for each STR. Those are published for the first 111 of FTDNA's STRs and a few others here and there, but not for the whole set of STRs that YFull pulls out of the BAM files. I'm sure YFull probably has enough data to at least approximate those by now but that wouldn't be good enough as a scientific reference.

Anyway even if you DID have the individual mutation rates for all those STRs, you could then calculate a TMRCA between two kits; but even with ~400 markers to rely on, a TMRCA between only two data points isn't very useful. The error range would be huge - 50%? 60%? I'm guessing there but whatever TMRCA number you arrived at would be near-useless. You need a bigger sample size and a more consistent set of data.

I've had pretty good results with the TMRCA calculations that the SAPP tool runs on STR data, but for that to work you need ALL the available STR values from every kits that you want to compare, and all the kits have to have as many STRs as possible in common, plus you need the individual mutation rates for each STR. SAPP seems to produce decent TMRCA estimates in general with the standard caveats that they're always just estimates still with an error range, and that there will always be outliers.

I have the mutation rates for the first 111 markers and a start at mutation rates for the full 561 that FTDNA report, so if you had a set of FTDNA kit data those can be run through to get TMRCA estimates. But you need the actual STR values for all the markers for every kit you want to compare. I don't think anyone has mutation rates for the YFull set of markers though.

Anyway, probably a longer answer than you were looking for.

12-13-2018, 04:39 PM
So looks like Yfull have completed their new STR engine, I now have zero close and distant matches, anybody else care to comment?

Bump.

msmarjoribanks
12-16-2018, 07:09 AM
My dad has 1 SNP match (but not really close, MRCA estimated at 3500).

I don't recall the prior results, but now 0 close and 500 distant STR matches. The closest (0.129) only shares haplogroups through L21 (my dad is DF63, he is DF13).

The closest SNP match is 35th on the STR list, and the ones above him share common haplogroups either only to L21 or sometimes only to P312 and in a couple of cases only to R-L151, so I think distant STR matches can be ignored, at least for R1b.

12-16-2018, 04:44 PM
My dad has 1 SNP match (but not really close, MRCA estimated at 3500).

I don't recall the prior results, but now 0 close and 500 distant STR matches. The closest (0.129) only shares haplogroups through L21 (my dad is DF63, he is DF13).

The closest SNP match is 35th on the STR list, and the ones above him share common haplogroups either only to L21 or sometimes only to P312 and in a couple of cases only to R-L151, so I think distant STR matches can be ignored, at least for R1b.

Thanks for the reply, this thread is not very popular..
I am a bit annoyed to be still given 1 close match, as I am at R-Z283* and the match is below R-Z282, and way downstream of that, clearly it’s not really close is it? Or?

Dave-V
12-16-2018, 06:39 PM
Thanks for the reply, this thread is not very popular..
I am a bit annoyed to be still given 1 close match, as I am at R-Z283* and the match is below R-Z282, and way downstream of that, clearly it’s not really close is it? Or?

That would mean you and your “close match” diverged on separate lines some 4900 years ago (YFull’s estimate for Z283 TMRCA) so no, not really close :-).

Unfortunately some lines have a prolific number of descendants, other fewer. You can only hope that it’s a temporary situation and vast numbers of your actual more recent matches are all considering getting their Y-DNA tested as we speak. Or even just one.

I’m in a relatively similar situation where my male line diverged away from L513 some 3800 years ago (or as my wife would say, “branched off the human species”). I was lucky to get several more recent matches back to about the 1600s so we’ve been able to make some progress on the line from then forward, but there’s over 3000 years before then that we may never bridge. I do empathize though with having no matches.

Some people have made in-roads in finding potential Y-DNA matches through autosomal testing and identifying potential Y-DNA matches who have (or whose relatives have) done autosomal but not Y-testing, and then convincing the appropriate male relative or tester to take a Y-DNA test. It’s at least one way to potentially speed things up.

msmarjoribanks
12-17-2018, 08:22 AM
Thanks for the reply, this thread is not very popular..
I am a bit annoyed to be still given 1 close match, as I am at R-Z283* and the match is below R-Z282, and way downstream of that, clearly it’s not really close is it? Or?

I wish everyone would at least give their numbers and thoughts about how close they are!

On yours, doesn't seem like it's actually close at all. Can you repeat how many close and distant matches you have?

I think the STR matches can be misleading for R1b since back-mutations make some look closer than they are. At FTDNA, the vast majority of my dad's 12 and 25 matches are meaningless (although granted they drop way off at 37). For more common/numerous subclades I think there's a problem with false matches even at 67, which might relate to YFull close matches being not really that close. R1a may well be similar.

On SNP, for my dad, close matches seem to require same subclade through R-A7811, which was formed 4200 YBP (although estimated TMRCA is 3500). Estimates are weird, though, as DF63 is two levels up and also estimated as formed 4200 YBP, and it is supposedly the earliest mutation after L21, which is estimated at 4500 YBP (and we will likely learn more about that before too long, could be older).

12-17-2018, 12:32 PM
I wish everyone would at least give their numbers and thoughts about how close they are!

On yours, doesn't seem like it's actually close at all. Can you repeat how many close and distant matches you have?

I think the STR matches can be misleading for R1b since back-mutations make some look closer than they are. At FTDNA, the vast majority of my dad's 12 and 25 matches are meaningless (although granted they drop way off at 37). For more common/numerous subclades I think there's a problem with false matches even at 67, which might relate to YFull close matches being not really that close. R1a may well be similar.

On SNP, for my dad, close matches seem to require same subclade through R-A7811, which was formed 4200 YBP (although estimated TMRCA is 3500). Estimates are weird, though, as DF63 is two levels up and also estimated as formed 4200 YBP, and it is supposedly the earliest mutation after L21, which is estimated at 4500 YBP (and we will likely learn more about that before too long, could be older).

Before the STR engine update I had about 400 distant, and about 12 close matches but the only SNP in common I had with them was R-Z283, which is approx 4K yrs old, then they deviated down a different SNP track which I was always Negative for.
After the STR engine update, Currently I have 500 distant matches, but just the 1 close match, again this close match only has the common R-Z283, then this one deviates to R-Z282, and then way downstream, so again close at 4K yrs? Sounds a stretch
For this compared STR 143, differences 14, so equates to a distance of 0.098

msmarjoribanks
12-17-2018, 04:17 PM
Yeah, I agree. Have they said what counts as close? I'm guessing maybe less than .1 difference (all my dad's are greater than 0.1, and are distant). But of course that can be misleading/coincidence, as the subclade information tells you.

12-17-2018, 04:32 PM
Yeah, I agree. Have they said what counts as close? I'm guessing maybe less than .1 difference (all my dad's are greater than 0.1, and are distant). But of course that can be misleading/coincidence, as the subclade information tells you.

Yes it’s based on the ratio of differences of STR of over compared STR, in my case 14/143 = 0.098.
So as it’s less that 0.1 they define it as a close match.

FionnSneachta
12-19-2018, 11:42 AM
My dad has 4 close STR matches (only because I encouraged my dad's closest Big Y matches to upload to YFull). They range from a distance of 0.02 (8/396) to 0.048 (18/374). His closest STR match who shares the same terminal SNP is estimated to have a TMRCA based on SNPs of 150 ybp while the other three matches are 400 ybp. They share my dad's surname or are an NPE.

The current theory is that the closest match's 3x great grandfather and my 3x great grandfather (both born in the 1830s) were first cousins making us share 5x great grandparents. We can't be certain of it since we don't have a paper trail to back it up. I don't know the name of my 3x great grandfather's father (although I suspect he may have been Patrick based on certain information) but my match knows the father of his 3x great grandfather from a marriage record. I found a birth around the right time for a child with the same name as the match's 3x great grandfather and same father's name in the same townland as my ancestor. The mother's surname is also the same surname as my mum's grandmother which could explain why mum autosomally matches my dad's closest SNP and STR match.

My dad's closest matches beyond these 4 are all distant matches ranging from 0.11 (33/299) in the UK to 0.159 (53/334) in Ireland. Based on SNPs there was a common ancestor with the closest distant match 4200 ybp (R-DF13) and for the 0.159 match it was 4500 ybp (R-P312). There's lots of other countries scattered in between including Colombia, Poland, Sweden, France, Spain, Norway, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, Brazil, Italy, Czech Republic, Mexico, Netherlands, Romania, Ukraine, and Algeria.

vettor
01-18-2019, 09:56 PM
is v 7.0 of Yfull got a glitch?

i went from 6 distant STR matches to 35

still zero for positive ones though

01-18-2019, 10:05 PM
is v 7.0 of Yfull got a glitch?

i went from 6 distant STR matches to 35

still zero for positive ones though

For me at least YFull, now seems to be working very well, I have a new close match from Northern Ireland a McDonald.

284 14 0.049 YF16634 new William John McDonald b.1834 and d. 1908 Ireland R-Y128147

Our new Haplogroup is about 750 years old.

Afshar
01-19-2019, 08:16 PM
The new distant matches are confusing, the distances do not correlate with the distances on the tree. The philippine P even seems to be a distant match

FionnSneachta
01-21-2019, 09:05 PM
The STR matches seem to make sense for me still. They haven't really changed with my four close matches still ranging from 0.02 to 0.048 and we all have a common ancestor from around the 1500s (375 ybp). The 500 distant matches range from 0.11 to 0.159 but there seems to have been a bit of a change since the last match on the page doesn't have an Irish flag.

Basta
01-23-2019, 02:00 PM
is v 7.0 of Yfull got a glitch?

i went from 6 distant STR matches to 35

still zero for positive ones though
I went from zero close matches to three.

FionnSneachta
02-08-2019, 11:13 AM
Today my dad has gone from 4 close matches to 8. I wouldn't be surprised if the extra 4 disappear again. The new matches and my dad have a last shared SNP of R-DF13 so about 4000 year ago. Does anyone notice the numbers for compared STRs changing every now and again? For two of my dad's matches there were 409 and 410 STRs compared. Now, they're 326 and 327 respectively. My dad's closest match used to be 8/409 (0.02) but is now 3/326 (0.009). My dad is a genetic distance of 3 with this match at Y-111.

FionnSneachta
02-09-2019, 01:12 PM
Just noticed a neat little update with YFull for my group in the recent update. On the YTree, they have separated out R-ZP77 (R-FGC6562) into two groups. My group under R-ZP77a all have DYS694=9. This is interesting for looking at STRs to form branches. It's going back to before a time of interest for me but at least it shows that they do take STRs into account when making the tree and could identify something similar for closer matches in the future. As a result of this, I've also got a new SNP match who is under R-ZP77a. The TMRCA 3400 ybp is still long ago but closer than people who are under R-ZP77 (rather than R-ZP77a) who have a TMRCA 3600 ybp.

rafc
02-10-2019, 10:31 AM
I also noticed they have added STR's to the tree. Seems like a good addition, although in at least one case it has lead to a merging of two unrelated branches.

FionnSneachta
02-10-2019, 02:05 PM
My dad now has 11 STR matches. I think I remember it being mentioned before that the Big Tree or McDonald were looking into using STRs in the tree so maybe that's why YFull seems to be interested in using STRs now.

Afshar
02-11-2019, 08:19 PM
I got 2 A00b matches :) aside from all the Qs

FionnSneachta
02-12-2019, 03:55 PM
My dad's STR matches had a large surge. There are now 163 close matches. His closest match now has a difference of 3 with 484 STRs compared giving a distance of 0.006. I still don't know the connection to this match. The differences are at CDY and DYS413 which are both found on palindromic regions. The last difference is at DYS712 but I don't know what the mutation rate is like for that STR. My dad's earliest known ancestor was born about 1830 while the match's earliest known ancestor was born about 1810.

McDonald (http://faculty.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/tmrca.htm) gives this as the TMRCA based on STRs so there's a possibility that the ancestor was 9 generations ago:
Generations Probability Cumulative
1 0.539734 0.540
2 0.345824 0.886
3 0.093479 0.979
4 0.017747 0.997
5 0.002776 1.000
6 0.000384 1.000
7 0.000049 1.000
8 0.000006 1.000
9 0.000001 1.000
10 0.000000 1.000

vettor
02-12-2019, 05:25 PM
I went from 9 STR matches to 35
then uploaded by FTDNA STR
I dropped to 6 matches
and now it is 13 STR matches

the SNP matches has always remained at 6


what does the pale blue squared numbers represent?

FionnSneachta
02-12-2019, 05:49 PM
I went from 9 STR matches to 35
then uploaded by FTDNA STR
I dropped to 6 matches
and now it is 13 STR matches

the SNP matches has always remained at 6


what does the pale blue squared numbers represent?

The blue squared numbers in your STR results are values obtained from the FTDNA STR upload but YFull weren't able to determine a value for this marker based on the BAM file upload. For example, if I hover the mouse over the value for DYS393 it says 'FTDNA: 13 | YFull 13?' or for DYS392 it says 'FTDNA: 13 | YFull: n/a'.

I think I know why the STR matches have changed for my dad. When looking at STR results, there are 780 STRs and towards the bottom of the page, there are lots of STRs typed in red with * which means that they're new STRs. I wonder if that has to do with the new Big Y-700 with YFull now reporting the extra STRs that are reported with Big Y-700.

02-12-2019, 06:17 PM
I just went up to 32 close matches, not sure how valuable it is, as the common SNP is R-Z283, which is very old, just the 1 McDonald is a young new SNP of 750 yrs.

vettor
02-12-2019, 06:37 PM
The blue squared numbers in your STR results are values obtained from the FTDNA STR upload but YFull weren't able to determine a value for this marker based on the BAM file upload. For example, if I hover the mouse over the value for DYS393 it says 'FTDNA: 13 | YFull 13?' or for DYS392 it says 'FTDNA: 13 | YFull: n/a'.

I think I know why the STR matches have changed for my dad. When looking at STR results, there are 780 STRs and towards the bottom of the page, there are lots of STRs typed in red with * which means that they're new STRs. I wonder if that has to do with the new Big Y-700 with YFull now reporting the extra STRs that are reported with Big Y-700.

So the red script ones are yfull or more ftdna ?

And, if the pale blue are "differences" between ftdna and yfull, where do we stand then with these STR matches

FionnSneachta
02-12-2019, 06:55 PM
So the red script ones are yfull or more ftdna ?

And, if the pale blue are "differences" between ftdna and yfull, where do we stand then with these STR matches

YFull accept the values that FTDNA have provided in the STR uploads. The STR matches are based on all your STR values including those in the blue box.

The red script are reported by YFull. You're able to view the STRs by all, 37, 67, 111, FTY or YSEQ. The STRs in red are not found in FTY so that means they're reported by YFull rather than coming from your STR upload.

I've also just included an image of the STRs we're referring to just in case there's any confusion.

28893

curiousII
02-12-2019, 11:31 PM
I just went up to 32 close matches, not sure how valuable it is, as the common SNP is R-Z283, which is very old, just the 1 McDonald is a young new SNP of 750 yrs.

I had one close match after I uploaded my YSEQ WGS. The only group I was in was the Z2573. Then I joined both the DF27 and the Anglo-Saxon/Norman groups. That was just a couple of days ago. My close match list is presently at 360 and rising every day.

Being WAMH my Family Tree 12 Marker matches are, present count, 7,712. I don't know how YFull does its calculations (I sort of do now after reading this thread), but I certainly hope it doesn't mirror Family Tree's methods. Not criticizing Family Tree, but I don't try to contact their y-DNA matches much at all anymore.

Presently my closest YFull match is 23 differences out of 355 compared STRs, distance 0.065. Before my joining these groups the one match I had was 0.067. He's downstream from Z2572.

I'm probably more Norman than Anglo-Saxon with my haplogroup, but Z2573's said to be from the Pyrenees and it doesn't include the Basque Marker so I must've had some relative passing through there before he crossed the Channel. My family names are common British ones; maybe I'll be of some use to their group. From the group description:

The purpose of this new group is to look for Anglo-Saxon, Norman and Pre-Viking genetics in people who have a good paper record of Anglo-Saxon and Norman ancestry. Those who have surnames associated with Anglo-Saxon and Norman ancestry. Those whose ancestors have lived in geographic lands occupied by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, and Normans. The group brings together all haplogroups, to enable research into which specific haplogroups share that ancestry.

Pre-Vikings is probably haplogroup I. That's not me, but the Pyrenees are in the Norman realm of influence. Or maybe they've settled on DF27 being from Quedlinberg instead of Iberia. There goes that argument again.

Just for fun: http://www.normanconnections.com/en/explore/map-of-the-anglo-norman-world/

msmarjoribanks
02-13-2019, 12:16 AM
I wonder if it's glitching, though. I went on and saw 4 STR close matches (vs. 0), was excited, and clicked on one to compare it and saw it was DF27 (which shouldn't be close). Got interrupted and then came back and they were gone.

msmarjoribanks
02-13-2019, 12:23 AM
I had one close match after I uploaded my YSEQ WGS. The only group I was in was the Z2573. Then I joined both the DF27 and the Anglo-Saxon/Norman groups. That was just a couple of days ago. My close match list is presently at 360 and rising every day.

Being WAMH my Family Tree 12 Marker matches are, present count, 7,712. I don't know how YFull does its calculations (I sort of do now after reading this thread), but I certainly hope it doesn't mirror Family Tree's methods. Not criticizing Family Tree, but I don't try to contact their y-DNA matches much at all anymore.

My dad has 9002 12-marker matches now. I only look at them out of curiosity to see how many. He only has 25 25-marker matches (only 1 is 0 GD), 3 37-marker matches (the 0 25 guy and two others), and 3 67-marker matches (the 0 25 guy again, plus two different matches with distances of 6 and 7). The 0 25 guy turns out to be a 111-marker match too, but with a GD of 4.

With R1b, and probably with any of them, 12 markers doesn't give you much. In theory having so many more markers at YFull should be more informative. But we don't have any close matches, so hard to say.

FionnSneachta
02-13-2019, 12:31 AM
I had one close match after I uploaded my YSEQ WGS. The only group I was in was the Z2573. Then I joined both the DF27 and the Anglo-Saxon/Norman groups. That was just a couple of days ago. My close match list is presently at 360 and rising every day.

Being WAMH my Family Tree 12 Marker matches are, present count, 7,712. I don't know how YFull does its calculations (I sort of do now after reading this thread), but I certainly hope it doesn't mirror Family Tree's methods. Not criticizing Family Tree, but I don't try to contact their y-DNA matches much at all anymore.

I haven't actually joined any projects on YFull. I'll have to see if any look relevant. The method would be the same as FTDNA really except that they take into account STRs beyond Y-111 as well. My dad is also WAMH and has 16,524 at Y-12. I just know not to take any notice of these matches so it doesn't bother me that there's loads of matches at that level. I just know that the vast majority are irrelevant. I'd only take notice and contact matches at the Y-37 level or higher. Even then at Y-37 since there are 119 matches, I only take notice of those at a genetic distance of 2 or closer. I'd only pay attention to matches beyond GD 2 at Y-37 if the match shared my surname.

Out of all my dad's 163 STR matches, only the top four are relevant. The most distant one of these matches is 0.027 and we're thought to have a common ancestor around the 1500s. Beyond that, they're all too distant despite being labelled 'close'. The match just needs to be 0.1 or less to be considered close. My dad's fifth highest match is a distance of 0.071 with the last shared SNP being DF13 which is estimated by YFull to be 4,200 ybp. I know that all of these extra matches are irrelevant and they're not going to offer me any revelations but if I wasn't keeping an eye on them, I wouldn't have noticed the extra STRs being compared for the four matches that I actually care about.

FionnSneachta
02-13-2019, 12:33 AM
I wonder if it's glitching, though. I went on and saw 4 STR close matches (vs. 0), was excited, and clicked on one to compare it and saw it was DF27 (which shouldn't be close). Got interrupted and then came back and they were gone.

It is possible. I've seen matches appear and disappear like that before. We'll just have to wait and see if all the matches stay or disappear over the next few days or if there's any difference to the number of STRs compared.

vettor
02-13-2019, 12:59 AM
I wonder if it's glitching, though. I went on and saw 4 STR close matches (vs. 0), was excited, and clicked on one to compare it and saw it was DF27 (which shouldn't be close). Got interrupted and then came back and they were gone.

I seem to also get some glitching......i have STR matches , with a sizemore from wales a mckee from ireland and a stockdell from scotland........they do have my branch of T1a2 but not my SNP

curiousII
02-13-2019, 05:42 AM
My dad's fifth highest match is a distance of 0.071 with the last shared SNP being DF13 which is estimated by YFull to be 4,200 ybp. I know that all of these extra matches are irrelevant and they're not going to offer me any revelations but if I wasn't keeping an eye on them, I wouldn't have noticed the extra STRs being compared for the four matches that I actually care about.

Speaking of SNP matches, I have none on my WGS upload (YF17098). That's my YSEQ Whole Genome Sequence 15x; my haplogroup with that is Z2573. On my Family Tree Big Y (YF11733) I have 100 SNP matches; with that test I'm haplogroup R1b>P312. Completely different testing from company to company and test to test. On YF11733 I have only 31 close STR matches. My closest match there is 37/443 at 0.084.

Interesting comparison between tests: YF11733 and YF17098 are 0/462 with a distance of 0.0. That's from my STR match list, obviously. My WGS/YF17098 SNP match list is empty, I share no matching SNPs with myself on my other test, Big Y YF11733 nor vice versa. I have 100 SNP Big Y/YFull SNP matches, true, but I'm not one of them.

This part of YFull is more fun than GEDmatch. Plus they have a comparison tool to see where the two tests differ. That's right under "SNP Matches" on the left navigation bar right over "Y Report," which is also a great tool for comparison purposes. Here there's 944 compared known SNPs with whole stacks of white crosses in green fields on YSEQ's test (proving a positive result) and opposite a white question mark on a blue background denoting "no call" on the Big Y test. LIterally hundreds of postive SNPs with a WGS compared to the Big Y's no calls.

From the "Statistics" page ("BY" is Big Y on the left, "YS" is YSEQ's WGS):

YF11733/Big Y YF17098/WGS

BY38 YS38

ChrY BAM file size:
0.18 Gb 0.12 Gb

Reads (all): 3336273 1770780

Mapped reads:
3336273 (100.00%) 1770780 (100.00%)

Unmapped reads: 0 0

Length coverage:
12532135 bp (47.44%) 26325871 bp (99.66%)

Min depth coverage: 1X 1X
Max depth coverage: 178X 308X
Mean depth coverage: 28.94X 9.65X
Median depth coverage: 28X 8X
Length coverage for age: 7685087 bp 8342314 bp
No call: 13882908 bp 89172 bp
SNPs (all): 142476 142476
Positive: 2052 (1.44%) 2974 (2.09%)
Negative: 15760 (11.06%) 15264 (10.71%)
Ambiguous: 20 (0.01%) 62 (0.04%)
No call: 3712 (2.61%) 12 (0.01%)
STRs (all): 780 780
Reliable alleles: 586 (75.13%) 644 (82.56%)
Uncertain alleles: 38 (4.87%) 51 (6.54%)
N/A: 156 (20.00%) 85 (10.90%)
Novel SNPs (all): 96 43
Best quality: 16 32
Acceptable quality: 11 9
INDELs: 0 0
Ambiguous quality: 12 2
One read!: 57 0
Low quality: 0 0

firemonkey
02-13-2019, 06:51 AM
I've now got 3 'close' matches but only one (England) is my haplogroup E-Y45878 0.052.

The other two are Finland E-84587 0.087 and Albania E-BY4590 0.098

MacUalraig
02-13-2019, 03:24 PM
I've got one kit I manage (a WGSx15 YSEQ) who now has 721 STRs, he already had the greatest Y chromosome 'length' of 26388221 bases. Incidentally he had one of the LOWEST DNA QA figures from YSEQ prior to sequencing.

My own kits have 663 (Y Elite) and 688 (WGSx30) respectively. As usual the accuracy of the matching is hit and miss and close matches include fellow FGC5862 members and a guy from DF97.

vettor
02-14-2019, 07:33 PM
YFull accept the values that FTDNA have provided in the STR uploads. The STR matches are based on all your STR values including those in the blue box.

The red script are reported by YFull. You're able to view the STRs by all, 37, 67, 111, FTY or YSEQ. The STRs in red are not found in FTY so that means they're reported by YFull rather than coming from your STR upload.

I've also just included an image of the STRs we're referring to just in case there's any confusion.

28893

I checked all my pale blue ones and all except one have same number between ftdna and yfull with ?

one has
DYS385.2 from ftdna of 13 , while yfull has 15 ............this is a major change in my ftdna and can lead to different matches....even though I stay in the same SNP branch
13 put me with central germans
15 puts me with belgiums

FionnSneachta
02-14-2019, 08:39 PM
I checked all my pale blue ones and all except one have same number between ftdna and yfull with ?

one has
DYS385.2 from ftdna of 13 , while yfull has 15 ............this is a major change in my ftdna and can lead to different matches....even though I stay in the same SNP branch
13 put me with central germans
15 puts me with belgiums

All of my values are either querying the same value or it's just not available. Which value is displayed in the blue box, 13 or 15? The value that's shown in the blue box is the one that would be accepted as true and used for matching. However, I would think that if there's uncertainty on what the correct STR value is for that marker that YFull wouldn't use that marker for matching. The STRs don't generally change the SNP branch. There's only a few branches on YFull that have been determined to have a unique STR marker. How can you tell 13 puts you with central Germans while 15 puts you with Belgians? You could send a query to YFull about the result if you're concerned about it.

vettor
02-14-2019, 10:31 PM
All of my values are either querying the same value or it's just not available. Which value is displayed in the blue box, 13 or 15? The value that's shown in the blue box is the one that would be accepted as true and used for matching. However, I would think that if there's uncertainty on what the correct STR value is for that marker that YFull wouldn't use that marker for matching. The STRs don't generally change the SNP branch. There's only a few branches on YFull that have been determined to have a unique STR marker. How can you tell 13 puts you with central Germans while 15 puts you with Belgians? You could send a query to YFull about the result if you're concerned about it.

The number is 13

because ftdna matches of 13-13 have me with Brucke ( hanover ) faser ( hesse) radich ( hesse ), while 13-15 will have me closer to bernot ( walloon) and Perry ( cornwall )

I have used their ancestors names and locations

FionnSneachta
02-14-2019, 11:25 PM
The number is 13

because ftdna matches of 13-13 have me with Brucke ( hanover ) faser ( hesse) radich ( hesse ), while 13-15 will have me closer to bernot ( walloon) and Perry ( cornwall )

I have used their ancestors names and locations

That makes sense looking at it from the FTDNA project results. I was wondering if I had missed some feature on YFull that would allow you to view the STRs of matches. It looks like they're using FTDNA's 13 for matching then. I'm guessing that YFull have a ? after 15 which mean that they weren't confident on the result. That would be why they've gone with FTDNA's reported value.

vettor
02-14-2019, 11:52 PM
That makes sense looking at it from the FTDNA project results. I was wondering if I had missed some feature on YFull that would allow you to view the STRs of matches. It looks like they're using FTDNA's 13 for matching then. I'm guessing that YFull have a ? after 15 which mean that they weren't confident on the result. That would be why they've gone with FTDNA's reported value.

correct , there is a ?

a lot of the other pale blue have n/a ......actually , more than half

firemonkey
02-15-2019, 11:37 AM
I now have 37 close matches but only one is the same haplogroup as me. I wonder how close these matches really are.

England 6
Germany 4
USA 3
Finland 1
Greece 1
Ireland 1
The Netherlands 1
Montenegro 2
Portugal 1
Gibraltar 1
UAE 1
Macedonia 1
Saudi Arabia 1
Spain 1
Malta 1
Bulgaria 5
Albania 3

FionnSneachta
02-15-2019, 12:55 PM
I now have 37 close matches but only one is the same haplogroup as me. I wonder how close these matches really are.

England 6
Germany 4
USA 3
Finland 1
Greece 1
Ireland 1
The Netherlands 1
Montenegro 2
Portugal 1
Gibraltar 1
UAE 1
Macedonia 1
Saudi Arabia 1
Spain 1
Malta 1
Bulgaria 5
Albania 3

You're able to check how close they are if you click on their terminal Hg. More than likely they're not close matches. YFull say that only samples that have an estimated age of 5000 ybp or younger (using TMRCA from the YTree) are included in matching. My dad has some matches in the STR list who only have P312 in common with him which is 4500 ybp. I don't think that there's much point in paying much attention to STR maches on YFull unless they share your terminal haplogroup. It's different with FTDNA since not all STR matches have Big Y so you do need to look at STR matches to determine if they could be a close match and encourage them to upgrade to Big Y. On YFull, you're able to see all of the haplogroups of your STR matches so you know straight away that a lot of the matches are irrelevant.

The new STR matches aren't a glitch. YFull announced this on Facebook:

A few months ago, we began full-scale scinetific searches of new Y-STR markers on several criteria. The marker should not be shorter than 3 repetitions and the marker should be mutable, that is, mutate at least in one sample with a high level of confidence. Today we add 193 new Y-STR markers to the list (now total 780). These are mostly slow markers because all the fast markers were previously found and known. New markers have names within DYR299 <-> DYR858. This is the first batch of new markers. Other markers will be added later. All new markers will be added to the results on the "STR results" page as they are calculated for a sample. All STR matches will also be recalculated, taking into account new markers and excluding palindromes and synonyms. This will make match results more accurate.

As time goes on, they may change the matching criteria again though since there is such an increase in match numbers. It will likely change again anyway since they are to add more markers. The added STRs are slow markers so I don't think you'd really expect to see an STR difference with close SNP matches for these markers. That might make them have to adjust their calculation for STR matches since if they're slow, then matches from a long time ago could share these matches which seems to be the case with the large increase in matches.

firemonkey
02-19-2019, 12:31 PM
My matches have now changed to 1 close and 9 distant.

FionnSneachta
02-19-2019, 05:11 PM
My matches have now changed to 1 close and 9 distant.

They've adjusted the matching threshold which was needed with all these extra STRs. This is the new criteria for close and distant matches:

Close matches are defined by YFull as matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.055, and Distant matches as matches with a genetic distance of 0.055 to 0.09.

The threshold has been lowered to 0.055 from 0.1 previously. I'm now back to 4 close matches and now only have 34 distant matches. I'm glad that they made that change since there were more than just 'close' matches being included.

curiousII
02-19-2019, 06:16 PM
So, did YFull just change its matching criteria or something? On my WGS STR matches I was up to around 370 close matches and the standard 500 distant matches. Now the only close match I have is me on my Big Y test and my distant matches are down to 90 with the closest at 0.065, a person who used to be on my close match page. Matter of fact, the farthest match I have on that page is 0.09. I thought close matches were under 0.1, the rest were relegated to the distant match list.

Is that just me? This sure seems like what they did at Family Tree when they did the Big Y revision a while back. Really sorry, but distant matches like what that new Anglo-Saxon/Norman "long term" group is about includes deep ancestry, doesn't it? I matched eight of those members out of the 88 that are in that group both at close and distant matches and the difference in my two tests (YSEQ WGS and FTDNA Big Y) showed the different regions of the chromosome that the matches showed up on. Meaning some matches were on my Big Y, some on my WGS.

I had a whole stack of Parrish matches, too. Looks like most of them are gone now. What's up with all this, anyway?

edit: I'm not trying to borrow money from family members. Don't worry.

FionnSneachta
02-19-2019, 06:45 PM
So, did YFull just change its matching criteria or something? On my WGS STR matches I was up to around 370 close matches and the standard 500 distant matches. Now the only close match I have is me on my Big Y test and my distant matches are down to 90 with the closest at 0.065, a person who used to be on my close match page. Matter of fact, the farthest match I have on that page is 0.09. I thought close matches were under 0.1, the rest were relegated to the distant match list.

Is that just me? This sure seems like what they did at Family Tree when they did the Big Y revision a while back. Really sorry, but distant matches like what that new Anglo-Saxon/Norman "long term" group is about includes deep ancestry, doesn't it? I matched eight of those members out of the 88 that are in that group both at close and distant matches and the difference in my two tests (YSEQ WGS and FTDNA Big Y) showed the different regions of the chromosome that the matches showed up on. Meaning some matches were on my Big Y, some on my WGS.

I had a whole stack of Parrish matches, too. Looks like most of them are gone now. What's up with all this, anyway?

edit: I'm not trying to borrow money from family members. Don't worry.

They've changed the matching criteria of close matches to be up to 0.055 and distant matches up to 0.09. The change was made because the additional STRs that were added resulted in a massive surge of close matches. My dad's close matches went from 4 to 173 because of the new STRs. Due to the change in matching criteria, my dad is back to 4 close matches which is right for him since we're supposed to all share a common ancestor from around the 1500s.

curiousII
02-19-2019, 07:20 PM
They've changed the matching criteria of close matches to be up to 0.055 and distant matches up to 0.09. The change was made because the additional STRs that were added resulted in a massive surge of close matches. My dad's close matches went from 4 to 173 because of the new STRs. Due to the change in matching criteria, my dad is back to 4 close matches which is right for him since we're supposed to all share a common ancestor from around the 1500s.

Right, thanks. When my first Family Finder came back I was around 59% British. They revised that with their new algorithm and booted me off the island and made me NW European instead. Then with my Big Y they cut back on their matching criteria and, out of my 1,100+ matches, I now have none. Now on YFull my only close match is me on my other test.

My cousin's son (Mom's side) came back as U106>Z306, now Family Tree's moved him to Z307 which is still in this project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/patriots-and-royalty/about/results if not specifically in the kings cluster (from what I've found). All these revisions of haplogroups and UK-ness hasn't entirely orphaned me, but now YFull has followed suit with Family Tree as far as UK relatives go.

Is this some kind of Norman/Anglo-Saxon argument or something? Honestly just guessing when I asked to join that group as I'm not y haplogroup I, but I did match 1/10th of that group's members at both close and distant.

I match that cousin's kid at 425 cM. They can't boot that out of me and I'm not trying to borrow money. Plus that's my mom's side and not my y-DNA. Do Normans and Anglo-Saxons argue in the UK or something?

02-19-2019, 07:40 PM
Cool, well I am glad they have got rid of my distant matches which were almost meaningless.
Now I still have 1 close match and 1 distant match.

vettor
02-19-2019, 07:49 PM
I now have zero for both close and distant

msmarjoribanks
02-19-2019, 09:14 PM
My dad now has 0 close matches and 2 distant matches (both of which are L21-DF13, while he is L21-DF63). His only SNP match (which is not very close -- TMRCA estimated at 3500) is not one of the two distant STR matches.

timberwolf
02-19-2019, 09:30 PM
I now have one close match who is from Gloucestershire and four distant, from Wales, Scotland, Sweden and the US. Last time I checked I had 19 close matches so a bit of a difference.

firemonkey
02-21-2019, 10:44 AM
Now 1 close (England) and 2 distant (England and Germany) .

RVBLAKE
02-21-2019, 11:08 AM
My matches have now changed to 1 close and 9 distant.

My YFull matches are going through a bewildering series of changes. Almost on a daily basis my matches change dramatically. A few days ago I had 300 distant matches, today only 3 or 4. I have no idea what is going on there.

curiousII
02-21-2019, 03:35 PM
My YFull matches are going through a bewildering series of changes. Almost on a daily basis my matches change dramatically. A few days ago I had 300 distant matches, today only 3 or 4. I have no idea what is going on there.

And now my matches have been decrease again. My WGS distant match list is down to 42 after it'd climbed back up to 90 or so, and my Big Y distant matches are now only 17. Both tests used to show 500 distant matches which I took to be the default limit. Guess not.

I sure seem to be getting the boot out of that Anglo-Saxon/Norman group, I'm sure I don't match anyone there now. Same thing happened when I thought I was Celtic. Whatever the argument is about where DF27 began, I don't have the Basque Marker and I have 425 cM of my cousin's kid's U106>Z307 y-haplogroup. If YFull tries to boot that out of me I can probably get it CRISPRed back in!

Right?

digital_noise
02-21-2019, 04:37 PM
Same with me. I only ever had 1 or 2 close matches. But I had 200+ Distant. Now both are 0.

FionnSneachta
02-21-2019, 08:17 PM
My YFull matches are going through a bewildering series of changes. Almost on a daily basis my matches change dramatically. A few days ago I had 300 distant matches, today only 3 or 4. I have no idea what is going on there.

YFull added extra STRs

A few months ago, we began full-scale scinetific searches of new Y-STR markers on several criteria. The marker should not be shorter than 3 repetitions and the marker should be mutable, that is, mutate at least in one sample with a high level of confidence. Today we add 193 new Y-STR markers to the list (now total 780). These are mostly slow markers because all the fast markers were previously found and known. New markers have names within DYR299 <-> DYR858. This is the first batch of new markers. Other markers will be added later. All new markers will be added to the results on the "STR results" page as they are calculated for a sample. All STR matches will also be recalculated, taking into account new markers and excluding palindromes and synonyms. This will make match results more accurate.

They've adjusted the matching threshold which was needed with all these extra STRs. My dad had previously had 4 close STR matches. With the new STRs, he had 173 STR matches with most having a TMRCA 4,500 ybp (R-DF13). With the new threshold added, he's now back at 4 close matches. The criteria could change again in the future so that people will have a similar number of matches as previously before the additional STRs were added. This is the new criteria for close and distant matches:

Close matches are defined by YFull as matches with a genetic distance of less than 0.055, and Distant matches as matches with a genetic distance of 0.055 to 0.09.

The close matches threshold has been lowered to 0.055 from 0.1 previously while distant matches are now at 0.09.

Sylvain
03-21-2019, 09:22 AM
I feel less lost reading the last messages posted in this thread … My results noted as of November 27, 2018 were 47 close matches and 500 distant matches. Now my results are 0 close matches and 8 distant matches. The problem with Yfull is not that they made that change, which I assume (as a non-expert) was an absolute necessity. The problem is that they have not informed its members (and the public) properly. At some point in time this year, they completely revised the content of the FAQ « Q: What is YFull's STR Comparison Methodology? », but they have left at the end of the same : « Last updated on March 28, 2018. » !

03-21-2019, 01:19 PM
I feel less lost reading the last messages posted in this thread … My results noted as of November 27, 2018 were 47 close matches and 500 distant matches. Now my results are 0 close matches and 8 distant matches. The problem with Yfull is not that they made that change, which I assume (as a non-expert) was an absolute necessity. The problem is that they have not informed its members (and the public) properly. At some point in time this year, they completely revised the content of the FAQ « Q: What is YFull's STR Comparison Methodology? », but they have left at the end of the same : « Last updated on March 28, 2018. » !
I seem to at least gets email updates from them, are you on their emails list?
Here is my last email:-

Hello Stephen Grant-Davies!
News from YFull.com

New feature. "Upload STRs" from FTDNA and YSEQ.

Now it is possible to upload STR haplotypes from CSV files that were tested using the Sanger method and other methods from FTDNA and YSEQ labs.

If in the BAM file any STR marker was not extracted or low confidence, then in this marker the STR allele will be replaced with the correct result that you uploaded (FTDNA or YSEQ). These markers will be highlighted in blue on the "STR results" page. When you hover over this marker, additional information will appear. From the data file with STR results that will downloaded from FTDNA (Big Y-500) we will use 111 markers, but only for those markers that were not extracted or low confidence in the BAM file. STR results from YSEQ will be taken at least 12 markers (it eliminates errors when data uploading). In the future, it is planned to use "FTY" markers downloaded from FTDNA (Big Y-500), and the data from YSEQ will be downloaded directly from the YSEQ website by API with the personal permission of the sample owner in YSEQ. In this case, we will use from 1 marker and more downloaded from YSEQ.

Why upload STR data to YFull database? This STR data will be used when searching for STR matches. A match score will become more reliable as a larger number of markers will be compared. All results with a low confidence or not extracted in the 111 marker panel will be fully used. There will also be other additional improvements. Upload the STR data is easy. They can be deleted or reloaded at any time.

"Upload STRs" page - https://www.yfull.com/ls-upload-strs/

New feature. "Comparisons" tool.

More and more people are testing their DNA sample in different laboratories ordering different quality products. And two and three and four sequences of one person made in different laboratories are not uncommon. The new "Comparisons" page is a handy tool for comparing two or more sequences of one person. Information is presented in a compact and intuitive interface.
"Comparisons" page - https://www.yfull.com/comparisons/

New feature. STR branches.

Very slowly mutated STR markers are very similar to SNP. These STRs can be trusted. We have selected the most stable STR mutations to create new branches in the YTree or combine already existing branches. You can see two on the YTree at the moment:

J-Y19681a | DYS476=10
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19681/

C-Y12782a | DYS632=9
https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-Y12782/

In the next version of the YTree about 100 such branches more will appear in different haplogroups.



New samples:
1. new sample ERS2374306 in subclade R-Y39884*
2. new sample ERS2374410 in subclade R-Y41571
3. new sample ERS2374286 in subclade R-Z2124

To unsubscribe please click http://www.yfull.com/settings/account/

Sylvain
03-21-2019, 05:01 PM
Thanks for the tip, Stephen, but I never got such email updates from YFull. I just checked my settings using the "unsubscribe" link in your last email: all the 7 "origin settings" are properly ticked:

1/Show on the YTree:
Displaying sample ID on the YTree
2/Show STRs:
Displaying STRs in the groups
3/Show SNPs:
Displaying SNPs in the groups
4/Show browser for group admin:
Displaying browser in the groups
5/Show browser for group:
Displaying browser in the groups
6/Subscribe to news:
Subscribe to news about sample and close YTree subclades
7/Receive PM (personal messages):

Any better idea?

Also, no matter that an email update was timely sent or not, re: STR Comparison Methodology, the date of the update as shown in the FAQ page is wrong and misleading ...

Sylvain
03-21-2019, 05:02 PM
Thanks for the tip, Stephen, but I never got such email updates from YFull. I just checked my settings using the "unsubscribe" link in your last email: all the 7 "origin settings" are properly ticked:

1/Show on the YTree:
Displaying sample ID on the YTree
2/Show STRs:
Displaying STRs in the groups
3/Show SNPs:
Displaying SNPs in the groups
4/Show browser for group admin:
Displaying browser in the groups
5/Show browser for group:
Displaying browser in the groups
6/Subscribe to news:
Subscribe to news about sample and close YTree subclades
7/Receive PM (personal messages):

Any better idea?

Also, no matter that an email update was timely sent or not, re: STR Comparison Methodology, the date of the update as shown in the FAQ page is wrong and misleading ...

msmarjoribanks
03-21-2019, 05:12 PM
My dad now has 0 close matches and 2 distant matches (both of which are L21-DF13, while he is L21-DF63). His only SNP match (which is not very close -- TMRCA estimated at 3500) is not one of the two distant STR matches.

This has dropped to 0 close and 1 distant, and the distant is still DF13 and not one of the DF63s. Basically no true matches (which is what FTDNA says).

Tonev
04-17-2019, 02:05 PM
You're able to check how close they are if you click on their terminal Hg. More than likely they're not close matches. YFull say that only samples that have an estimated age of 5000 ybp or younger (using TMRCA from the YTree) are included in matching. My dad has some matches in the STR list who only have P312 in common with him which is 4500 ybp. I don't think that there's much point in paying much attention to STR maches on YFull unless they share your terminal haplogroup. It's different with FTDNA since not all STR matches have Big Y so you do need to look at STR matches to determine if they could be a close match and encourage them to upgrade to Big Y. On YFull, you're able to see all of the haplogroups of your STR matches so you know straight away that a lot of the matches are irrelevant.

The new STR matches aren't a glitch. YFull announced this on Facebook:


As time goes on, they may change the matching criteria again though since there is such an increase in match numbers. It will likely change again anyway since they are to add more markers. The added STRs are slow markers so I don't think you'd really expect to see an STR difference with close SNP matches for these markers. That might make them have to adjust their calculation for STR matches since if they're slow, then matches from a long time ago could share these matches which seems to be the case with the large increase in matches.

Hello,
Does that FB announcement explain the fact that my DYS 464 (1,2,3,4) from FTDNA Y-37 was not uploaded in YFULL? ( "... All STR matches will also be recalculated, taking into account new markers and excluding palindromes and synonyms. ...")

Tonev
04-17-2019, 02:11 PM
I checked all my pale blue ones and all except one have same number between ftdna and yfull with ?

one has
DYS385.2 from ftdna of 13 , while yfull has 15 ............this is a major change in my ftdna and can lead to different matches....even though I stay in the same SNP branch
13 put me with central germans
15 puts me with belgiums

I have a similar situation after my FTDNA Y-37 upload with value of DYS576=15 (in YFULL), аnd DYS576=16 (in FTDNA Y-37)

FionnSneachta
04-17-2019, 05:27 PM
Hello,
Does that FB announcement explain the fact that my DYS 464 (1,2,3,4) from FTDNA Y-37 was not uploaded in YFULL? ( "... All STR matches will also be recalculated, taking into account new markers and excluding palindromes and synonyms. ...")

Did you 'Upload STRs' separate to the BAM file? If you have and they're not there, then I don't know. I'd suggest that you contact YFull if you want to know why.

Tonev
04-18-2019, 05:16 AM
That is the real situation- although not all results are ready (mT-DNA, age estimation), yet the STR results were published. With a number of STRs marked as "Loci is not available", 20 among the first 111. So I sent a message to YFULL for a possible error with uploading the FTDNA 37 STRs yesterday.
As a matter of fact, I browsed the raw data of FGC59302, which is a position, that for instance belongs to DYS 464.1. YFULL describes it as available acordingly. I checked the same position at YBROWSE too, and there was a remark that it is "Not found on the YFull Ytree".

digital_noise
05-07-2019, 08:34 PM
I have a sort of dummy question that I dont understand, regarding STR matches.

There are 2 others aside from myself in E-BY14160* on YFull. Neither are close or distant matches to me, however I have 5 other distant matches that are in subclades further down from mine. How can they be distant matches yet none of the other E-BY14160's are?