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MitchellSince1893
05-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Per new papers. Quotes from what Richard Rocca found so far.

New Bell Beaker U152+ Samples:

-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE

For reference
-I0805 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Quedlinburg, Germany, U152>PF6658 2467-2142 BCE Mean 2305 BCE
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Cant find any dates for this site but based on this reference it has to be no earlier than 2500 BCE and no later than 1800 BCE. Lacking anything more concrete, a Mean of 2150 BCE
-RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE



In their large-scale study on radiocarbon dating of the Bell Beakers, J. Müller and S. Willingen established that the Bell Beaker Culture in Central Europe started after 2500 BC

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10492-Largest-study-of-Bell-Beaker-aDNA-coming&p=233560&viewfull=1#post233560


My prediction of the Beglietkeramik samples belonging to the L2 subclade looks pretty strong as all these BB U152+ samples are also L2+

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10492-Largest-study-of-Bell-Beaker-aDNA-coming&p=233565&viewfull=1#post233565

R1b1a1a2a1a2b1=R-U152>L2 in ISOGG tree version 11.110 (21 April 2016) which was used as reference in paper

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2017, 03:36 PM
I updated the samples with dates Richard provided in an email

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2017, 08:56 PM
For reference, a quick map showing the 7 known U152 Bell Beaker sample locations above.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c2/9c/f8/c29cf8ceb72099bbf402fa15bb6e9474.png

Note 1 Two samples are at same location in southern Germany, hence 6 rather than 7 pins.

15835

Note 2. RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE isn't on the map but it would be directly west (left) of the blue midpoint pin right below the red pin shown.

Osiris
05-10-2017, 10:18 PM
I love this stuff, being an L2 myself. It's unanswerable but I wonder if any of these guys heard of the first carrier of L2. With such a spread you'd think he would be hidden too far back in the past but maybe I'm underestimating the ability of people to spread out within a century or two. Living memory in my family went back 150 years (5 generations) before I started writing things down.

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2017, 10:18 PM
IMO Yfull's dates are sometimes skewed by tiny sample sizes of some branches being averaged in with branches with large samples sizes, which affects the higher up branch date.

If you look at tree version 5.03, L2 was formed 4400 ybp or 2450 BC. To me that seems a little too late based how widespread L2 was 100 to 200 years later. It's not impossible but it does seem optimistic.

Z49 is the largest branch of L2 and Z142 is the largest branch of Z49...at least in the FTDNA project.

If we start with the overall average for Yfull's 27 Z142 samples (rather than averaging the individual Z142 branch averages) and work back to L2, adding 144.41 years per SNP we get the following dates

Z142 formed around 4314 ybp (2364 BCE)
Z49 formed around 4458 ybp (2508 BCE)
L2 formed around 4603 ybp (2653 BCE)
U152 formed 4747 ybp (2797 BCE)

This would give L2's descendants about 10 generations to be in all the locations shown on the map above. At a rate of 2.5 sons per generation having 2.5 sons on average, there would be almost 10000 L2 men after 10 generations.
Or L2 and/or some of his recent descendants had multiple wives and scores of children.

Of course these dates would have to mesh with U152's parent branch P312 and sister branches. I haven't reconciled the above dates with the other P312 branches...so caveat emptor

TigerMW
05-10-2017, 10:37 PM
Was the Hungarian L2+ guy considered Eastern/Cspel Bell Beaker?

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2017, 11:52 PM
Was the Hungarian L2+ guy considered Eastern/Cspel Bell Beaker?

He was found at the Békásmegyer site, which, looking at this source, may be Csepel .
https://www.academia.edu/5785869/Funerary_Rituals_Social_Relations_and_Diffusion_of _Bell_Beaker_Csepel-Group


Distribution of Burial Rite of Bell Beaker Csepel Group on North part of Budapest and surroundings 1: Budakalász-
Csajerszke. 2: Békásmegyer...

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2017, 03:21 PM
Once Richard Rocca is able to get access to the samples we may discover additional SNPs below L2. This would help to improve age estimates. I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two SNPs younger than U152》L2 on some of these samples...hopefully ones from non-extinct lines.

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2017, 04:28 PM
Whoa! Just found something very interesting in the supplementary table for the The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe paper
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962.figures-only

They have dates for RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553) Midpoint is 2542 BCE

I believe this would be the oldest dates for U152 and for P312?

TigerMW
05-11-2017, 04:34 PM
Whoa! Just found something very interesting in the supplementary table for the The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe paper
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962.figures-only

They have dates for RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
2572–2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553) Midpoint is 2542 BCE

I believe this would be the oldest dates for U152 and for P312 for that matter.
Thank you. This is Bavaria, not far from the Czech Rep. and Austria.

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2017, 05:09 PM
Thank you. This is Bavaria, not far from the Czech Rep. and Austria.

Yes. Right next to the Danube River, 20 miles/30 kms northwest of the Austrian/German border.

Ravai
05-11-2017, 08:30 PM
For reference, a quick map showing the 7 known U152 Bell Beaker sample locations above.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c2/9c/f8/c29cf8ceb72099bbf402fa15bb6e9474.png

Note 1 Two samples are at same location in southern Germany, hence 6 rather than 7 pins.

15835

Note 2. RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE isn't on the map but it would be directly west (left) of the blue midpoint pin right below the red pin shown.

Hello MitchellSince1893,

What are the exact locations of these samples?

BB_Central_Europe BB_Germany_BAV E09569 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 J1c2 2397-2149 calBCE Germany
BB_Central_Europe NA I3597 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 T2f 2300-2150 BCE Germany

Thanks

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2017, 08:46 PM
Hello MitchellSince1893,

What are the exact locations of these samples?

BB_Central_Europe BB_Germany_BAV E09569 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 J1c2 2397-2149 calBCE Germany
BB_Central_Europe NA I3597 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 T2f 2300-2150 BCE Germany

Thanks
Sample ID/Lat/Long/Dates/Location
RISE563 48.691 13.069 2572–2512 calBCE Osterhofen-Altenmarkt
I3875 44.476 6.369 2459–2242 BCE Villard
I2365 47.59916 19.05456 2465-2205 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer
I3589 48.8833 12.5332 2300–2150 BCE Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
I3597 48.8833 12.5332 2300–2150 BCE Alburg-Lerchenhaid, Spedition Häring, Stkr. Straubing, Bavaria
E09569 48.32 10.89 2397–2149 calBCE Unterer Talweg 85 (Augsburg)
I0805 51.79 11.14 2467–2142 calBCE Quedlinburg

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2017, 09:37 PM
Here is some additional details for the 5 men U152>L2 men (one was an infant and I've included info about his mother)


The dolmen of Villard (Lauzet-Ubaye, France)
The tomb excavated during 4 months from 1980 to 1983 is located at an altitude of 1267 m near the Morgon relief. It is composed of a rectangular funerary chamber made of 6 slabs and a cover slab, an entrance corridor and a tumulus of around 12 m in diameter. A total 2575 human remains were discovered in the chamber. At least, 25 individuals (16 adults and 9 juveniles) were buried successively in the grave. Partial articulated bodies represent only 5% of the remains, as most of the bones are disarticulated. A single sedimentary layer was observed but two levels of human remains organization were distinguished. Grave goods are scarce compared to the number of individuals: two incomplete Bell Beakers vessels, a copper dagger, a wrist-guard, few lithic tools and ornaments. The first radiocarbon date provided by a human 14 remain from the base of the funerary layer is in accordance with the grave goods (Ly 9995: 3895+/- 35)33. The second radiocarbon date, from the top of the layer (Ly 9994: 3515+/-40)33, indicates that the tomb was, at least, reused during the middle Bronze age. Two disarticulated cranium from the oldest funerary level were sampled: Ÿ I3874/Vil-Lauz-1435: 2459–2242 BCE. Adult, genetically female. Ÿ I3875/Vil-Lauz-1316: 2459–2242 BCE. Adolescent, genetically male.


Budapest-Békásmegyer...Grave 452 (I2365, GEN 11a): Burial of an adult male lying of his left side, in contracted position, excavated in 1982. The skeleton was incomplete, and oriented north-northwest to south-southeast, with hyper-flexed legs. Pottery grave goods (a Bell Beaker, an urn, a bowl, and a jug) were situated beside the lower leg, at the southern part of the grave pit. Other grave goods include an arrowhead, and two stone tools.I2365/GEN_11a/Grave452: 2465-2205 calBCE [2465-2205 calBCE (3858±32 BP, DeA-6762); 2465-2213 calBCE (3858±32 BP, DeA-7220)]


Alburg (Lerchenhaid-Spedition Häring, City of Straubing, Bavaria, Germany)...I3589/Grave 3: 2300–2150 BCE. Left-sided, N-S oriented, crouched burial;inventory consists of bone pin, 5 decorated bow-shaped bone pendants, 2 fragmented boar’s tusks and 11 flints, all deposited behind the back; anthropologically adult man.

I3594/Grave 9: 2300–2150 BCE. Half-way supine with flexed legs, half-way slightly right-hand side crouched burial, south-north oriented; inventory consists of broad metope-decorated beaker, 10 V-formed perforated bone buttons and 3 flints;anthropologically adult woman. Genetic data show that she is a first-degree relative of I3597/...Grave 12 I3597/Grave 12: 2300–2150 BCE. Left-sided crouched burial; anthropologically an infant


Unterer Talweg 85 (Augsburg, Germany)...The site of “Unterer Talweg 85” (due to a change of the street numbers after the excavation, the site is sometimes also known as “Unterer Talweg 49”) is situated in Haunstetten, a quarter of Augsburg to the very south of the city and only 300 m north of Unterer Talweg 58-62, from which individuals are also included in this study. The cemetery consists of two small groups of burials, group I with 5 graves and group II with 2 graves, both situated roughly 20 m apart from each other. Group I, the so-called northern group, was excavated in 2001. Three single burials were radiocarbon dated and their 2 sigma ranges fall between 2465 and 2152 calBCE40. We obtained genetic data from the dentine of the individual in grave I/3 (feat. 1343). This was a male individual in contracted position with an arrowhead and several pieces of flint as grave goods. E09569/Grave I/3: 2397–2149 calBCE (3819±24, MAMS-18949)

Ravai
05-13-2017, 08:18 AM
Good morning,

I borrowed Volker Heyd's map of the Bell Beaker phenomenon and added the red dots where U152> L2 specimens have been found. The coordinates are not precise, they are made by hand.

15903

Regards

Larth
05-31-2017, 01:35 AM
Per new papers. Quotes from what Richard Rocca found so far.


For reference
-I0805 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Quedlinburg, Germany, U152>PF6658 2467-2142 BCE Mean 2305 BCE
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Cant find any dates for this site but based on this reference it has to be no earlier than 2500 BCE and no later than 1800 BCE. Lacking anything more concrete, a Mean of 2150 BCE
-RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE

Are those samples on Gedmatch?

TigerMW
06-16-2017, 02:52 AM
What are the leading hypotheses now on U152's origin and early expansions, particularly vis a vis Italy?

I've got doctors in statistics and research telling me that the early diversity of U152 is in Italy so all of the U152 in the East Bell Beakers must have come from the south of the Alps.

MitchellSince1893
06-16-2017, 03:32 AM
While, PF6658, Z36, Z56, all have above average percentages in Italy, L2 (the largest U152 subclade) is below average in Italy. So far none of the oldest samples are from Italy.
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152, 2572-2512 BCE Mean 2542 BCE
-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE.

Note that all of them except for RISE563 are U152>L2 and their geographic midpoint is in Bavaria i.e. north of the Alps.

Back in 2008 David Faux said, "locations exhibiting highest STR variance are Germany and Slovakia" Now we've come a long ways since then, but maybe he was on to something e.g. melding of Corded Ware/Yamnaya/Beaker in Moravia.

I also wonder about the area of eastern Romania, Moldova, and Western Ukraine. Based on FTDNA data, this area appears to have a lot of U152 SNP diversity.

Haven't answered your question, but to me L2 just doesn't fit the bill for a Italian origin or for early rapid growth. Maybe L2 went north of the Carpathians, and other clades such as Z36 went south taking a Danube route with an origination in/near Western Ukraine?

Spoke about this in this thread

The present diversity of U152 subclades found on the eastern slopes the Carpathians in the red circle on bottom map (using data we do have in the absence ancient samples).

In that circle we find U152>L2, U152>PF6658, U152>Z56, 2 samples that are U152+ L2-,Z56-Z36-, but we presently find little to no U152>ZZ45. It's almost as if ZZ45 wasn't around until the group entered Moravia. Not a lot of U152 samples in the small circled area, but a lot of diversity within the samples we presently have in that area.

The two samples found in NE Romania that are negative for L2, Z56, and Z36 (largest subclade of ZZ45) are particularly of interest

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=239581&viewfull=1#post239581

I don't think U152, or any subclades directly under U152 originated in Italy. That would have occurred in Central/Eastern Europe. However a few SNPs down some subclades may have had explosive growth once they arrived in Italy in the late 3rd and 2nd millennium BC. For the most part, L2 may have arrived in Italy with the Urnfield and later Celtic movements.

Just my two cents.

haleaton
06-16-2017, 04:07 PM
Are those samples on Gedmatch?

This link has samples on GEDMATCH Archaic comparisons:

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html

Any word on when NGS raw data is realeased for further analysis?

R.Rocca
06-16-2017, 07:19 PM
What are the leading hypotheses now on U152's origin and early expansions, particularly vis a vis Italy?

I've got doctors in statistics and research telling me that the early diversity of U152 is in Italy so all of the U152 in the East Bell Beakers must have come from the south of the Alps.

Remember, this is the oldest P312 found to date, and given these data points, there is little to no chance this guy came from Italy...

Sample:...........................RISE563
Haplogroup:.....................P312+ U152+
Dating:............................2572-2512 calBCE (3955±35 BP, Poz-84553)... (recently produced C14 date from Olalde et al makes him the earliest known P312 sample to date)
Culture:...........................Bell Beaker East - Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany
Isotope Analysis:...............was a migrant based on this skeleton's use in a prior isotope study
Autosomal Composition:.....plots with Corded Ware samples and modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians and Mordovians

On the flip side, we have this sample...

Sample:...........................I2478
Haplogroup:.....................P312+ (Olalde could not call the U152 position and did not call DF27, so ti could be either, but not L2+)
Dating:............................2200–1930 calBCE (3671±40 BP, LTL-5035A)
Culture:...........................Bell Beaker - Guidorossi, Parma, Italy
Autosomal Composition:.....Has only about half of the steppe ancestry as other P312+ samples. Still, that is a lot more than zero steppe ancestry which is what the contemporary Remedello Culture samples have.

This is Olade's analysis of the Italian P312+ Bell Beaker sample...


Population discontinuity in northern Italy
Our Beaker Complex individual from Parma is slightly shifted towards populations with
steppe ancestry in the PCA (Fig 1b). We tested for symmetry between BB_Italy_Par
and Remedello_CA3 (Table S2), a culture preceding the Beaker Complex in northern
Italy. Several steppe-like populations such as EHG (Z=4.6) or Yamnaya_Samara
(Z=3.9) share more alleles with BB_Italy_Par than with Remedello_CA, indicating that
our Italian Beaker Complex individual harbors a steppe-related ancestry component not
present in the previous Remedello culture.

Italy has diversity of U152, but it is because it has a nearly even split of most of U152 subclades, where's countries north of the Alps are more than 50% L2+

ArmandoR1b
06-16-2017, 07:38 PM
Per new papers. Quotes from what Richard Rocca found so far.

For reference
-I0805 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Quedlinburg, Germany, U152>PF6658 2467-2142 BCE Mean 2305 BCE
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe U152 from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Cant find any dates for this site but based on this reference it has to be no earlier than 2500 BCE and no later than 1800 BCE. Lacking anything more concrete, a Mean of 2150 BCE
-RISE471 Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany, 1675-1515 BCE

R1b1a1a2a1a2b1=R-U152>L2 in ISOGG tree version 11.110 (21 April 2016) which was used as reference in paper


Are those samples on Gedmatch?


This link has samples on GEDMATCH Archaic comparisons:

http://www.y-str.org/p/ancient-dna.html



Felix stopped updating the Y-STR.org page last year and he never uploaded those to Gedmatch. See http://www.y-str.org/2016/07/focusing-on-trumpet-call-from-now-on.html

R.Rocca uploaded two of those -


I added the following two samples to GEDmatch:

T644357 = RISE563 Bell Beaker, Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany
Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+

T722032 = RISE471 Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany (no date given but traditionally ~1610-1450 BC)
Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+L2+

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8672-List-of-ancient-samples-on-GEDmatch&p=192104&viewfull=1#post192104


Any word on when NGS raw data is realeased for further analysis?
The New Bell Beaker U152+ Samples will be at https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/datasets once the paper has been officially published.

MitchellSince1893
06-16-2017, 09:56 PM
double post

MitchellSince1893
06-16-2017, 09:59 PM
Here is what T644357 RISE563 (currently oldest P312 and U152) looks like in the K36 tool found in this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10813-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps

16956

Closest to present day Dutch and Danish, followed by English and Scottish

haleaton
06-16-2017, 11:39 PM
I wonder if we spent more time updating L2 subclades on the ISOGG Tree scientists would have gone deeper in their paper, so we would not have to wait.

MitchellSince1893
06-17-2017, 01:34 AM
I wonder if we spent more time updating L2 subclades on the ISOGG Tree scientists would have gone deeper in their paper, so we would not have to wait.

I guess I'm fortunate. On the ISOGG tree they go down to 1 branch above my current terminal branch...all the way down to R1b1a1a2a1a2b1c1b3a1 FGC12401/Y10984, which is 6 levels below L2

Ravai
06-17-2017, 07:42 AM
Here is what T644357 RISE563 (currently oldest P312 and U152) looks like in the K36 tool found in this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-rates-on-maps

Do the colors put them by hand or is there a program that interprets the values?

Thanks

Regards

Celt_??
06-17-2017, 12:39 PM
Here is what T644357 RISE563 (currently oldest P312 and U152) looks like in the K36 tool found in this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10813-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps

16956

Closest to present day Dutch and Danish, followed by English and Scottish

So why do you think the map doesn't show the usual high percentages for Northern Italy and Switzerland that present day R-U152 distribution maps usually demonstrate?

MitchellSince1893
06-17-2017, 02:31 PM
Do the colors put them by hand or is there a program that interprets the values?

Thanks

RegardsNo program...done by hand.


So why do you think the map doesn't show the usual high percentages for Northern Italy and Switzerland that present day R-U152 distribution maps usually demonstrate?
Just a guess, but as there was a ~95% replacement of the original population of the British Isles, and no subsequent replacement later, the British Isles remain similar to the original Bell Beaker arrivals.

As to rest of of Northern Europe; e.g. Denmark and Netherlands, maybe the combination of P312 and U106 had a similar effect. U106 has it's highest percentage in the Netherlands and the pre-Germanic and later Germanic U106 invaders remained similar to the original Bell Beaker/Yamnaya admixture.

Switzerland and Italy may not have been impacted as much by the arrival of U152; that is, there wasn't as huge of a population replacement and there was probably a lot more admixture as various groups came into the area after the original arrival of U152. The proximity to the Roman Empire may have had a larger admixture impact on these areas.

Again this is just a guess...but hopefully an educated one.

Just ran the numbers on T722032 = RISE471 Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany (no date given but traditionally ~1610-1450 BC) Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+L2+. It was noticeably different result from RISE563...closer to what you would expect with a peak in south central France, with north central and northwest France, and Switzerland being the next highest.

When I have time, I will create a more detailed map later today for the results...but here is the original screenshot.
16966

Celt_??
06-17-2017, 04:15 PM
Thank you very much for the detailed reply!

MitchellSince1893
06-17-2017, 05:45 PM
Colored map for T722032 = RISE471 Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany 1691-1519 BC Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+L2+ (EDIT Date updated)
16971

R.Rocca
06-18-2017, 11:46 AM
Colored map for T722032 = RISE471 Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany (no date given but traditionally ~1610-1450 BC) Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+L2+
16971

While previously lacking, the Olalde paper did give a radiocarbon for RISE 471. It is 1691-1519 calBCE.

Osiris
07-04-2017, 02:20 AM
Would the earlier L2 (2300 BCE) men be more likely to have downstream mutations in common with modern men than the 1500 BCE man?

wombatofthenorth
07-08-2017, 05:36 AM
While, PF6658, Z36, Z56, all have above average percentages in Italy, L2 (the largest U152 subclade) is below average in Italy. So far none of the oldest samples are from Italy.
-RISE563 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152, 2572-2512 BCE Mean 2542 BCE
-I3875 BB_Southern_France France U152>L2 2459-2242 BCE Mean 2351 BCE
-I2365 BB_Central_Europe Hungary U152>L2 2465-2205 BCE Mean 2335 BCE
-E09569 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2397-2149 BCE Mean 2273 BCE
-I3589 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE
-I3597 BB_Central_Europe Germany U152>L2 2300-2150 BCE Mean 2225 BCE.

Note that all of them except for RISE563 are U152>L2 and their geographic midpoint is in Bavaria i.e. north of the Alps.

Back in 2008 David Faux said, "locations exhibiting highest STR variance are Germany and Slovakia" Now we've come a long ways since then, but maybe he was on to something e.g. melding of Corded Ware/Yamnaya/Beaker in Moravia.

I also wonder about the area of eastern Romania, Moldova, and Western Ukraine. Based on FTDNA data, this area appears to have a lot of U152 SNP diversity.

Haven't answered your question, but to me L2 just doesn't fit the bill for a Italian origin or for early rapid growth. Maybe L2 went north of the Carpathians, and other clades such as Z36 went south taking a Danube route with an origination in/near Western Ukraine?

Spoke about this in this thread


http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=239581&viewfull=1#post239581

I don't think U152, or any subclades directly under U152 originated in Italy. That would have occurred in Central/Eastern Europe. However a few SNPs down some subclades may have had explosive growth once they arrived in Italy in the late 3rd and 2nd millennium BC. For the most part, L2 may have arrived in Italy with the Urnfield and later Celtic movements.

Just my two cents.

For what it is worth I'm U152->L2->L20 and mostly Latvian ancestry (so far strictly paternal traced in Latvia to a seemingly Latvian serf around 1800).
Have not done BigY, what few sub-L20 SNPs we have had tested between Geno 2.0, 23 and Geno 2.0 NG are all negative.
At STR25 we have only 4 matches (3 from Slovakia all traced to someone born in Slovakia around the year 1600 and 1 to someone with a different surname than the Slovakian ones to far southern Poland not really so far from the Slovakian group).
At STR37 2 of 3 Slovakian same surname group matches go away and we are left with one of those at distance 4 and the far southern Polish one at distance 3.
At STR67 the far southern polish match went away (the Slovakian ones have not tested to this level but since they were 1 step farther from us at 37 and they are closer to the Polish one than we were at 37 we expect that they'd also go away at 67).

So we are basically stuck with no matches at STR67 and some very odd branch of R-L20 that was in the Baltics somehow. It would be so cool to figure out where it came from somehow.

My dad's autosomal tests hint at probably some bit of ancestry from somewhere in the greater Romanian/western-Ukrainian area. He has one distant autosomal match that has traced every line as being born in Slovenia to at least the year 1800. With Baltic Germans and some Polish in Latvia who could certainly have some of that. He has one distant match that seems very Danish and another that seems very Belgian. He has distant matches that seem to be all Colonial US or Irish/maybe Scottish.

At STR12 we are an exact match for a direct George Washington descendant and a close match to Nial of the Nine (And get the badge at FTDNA, although it turns out to be ridiculous since Nial of the Nine is not L2 much less L20 and on a totally different M269 sub-branch so STR12 doesn't mean so much).

R.Rocca
07-08-2017, 02:02 PM
Would the earlier L2 (2300 BCE) men be more likely to have downstream mutations in common with modern men than the 1500 BCE man?

It would be the other way around... the younger the sample the longer it had time to develop new mutations. The older samples may have been dead ends. When discussing ancient DNA though, the third dimension that is of extreme importance is the quality of the DNA. A low quality sample may have a lot of data missing thus making it impossible to determine if it was derived for relevant downstream mutations.

Ravai
07-09-2017, 09:11 AM
Colored map for T722032 = RISE471 Middle Bronze Age Tumulus Culture, Untermeitingen, Germany 1691-1519 BC Haplogroup: R-P312+U152+L2+ (EDIT Date updated)
16971

It makes enough sense, look at the hypothesis about my haplogroup.

17459

Regards

haleaton
07-10-2017, 03:38 AM
It would be the other way around... the younger the sample the longer it had time to develop new mutations. The older samples may have been dead ends. When discussing ancient DNA though, the third dimension that is of extreme importance is the quality of the DNA. A low quality sample may have a lot of data missing thus making it impossible to determine if it was derived for relevant downstream mutations.

Do we know if they actually measured say L2 or took the SNPs that were determinable and use the ISOGG tree to find convenient groupings?

MitchellSince1893
09-19-2017, 05:10 PM
In case you are curious what the oldest known U152/P312 sample RISE563, looks like compared to modern pops. Shockingly very NW European. I thought he would look more Central European. Not sure what to make of it...

RISE563 was found in Bavaria near Austrian border just off the Danube.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11663-K36-based-oracle-with-ancients&p=288711&viewfull=1#post288711

Pylsteen
09-19-2017, 05:41 PM
In case you are curious what the oldest known U152/P312 sample RISE563, looks like compared to modern pops. Shockingly very NW European. I thought he would look more Central European. Not sure what to make of it...

RISE563 was found in Bavaria near Austrian border just off the Danube.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11663-K36-based-oracle-with-ancients&p=288711&viewfull=1#post288711


To me, the distribution looks like inbetween Corded Ware and Bell Beaker.

MitchellSince1893
09-19-2017, 06:02 PM
One thought is maybe during the 3rd millennium BC, most of Central Europe looked a lot like present day NW Europe, and as successive waves came in from the East over the last few thousand years, Central Europe began to look different with only the fringe of this area (areas/countries bordering the North Sea , UK & Ireland) being mostly unaffected...remaining genetically similar to the past.

MitchellSince1893
09-19-2017, 08:22 PM
Forgot I had done RISE563 before. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11570-Analysis-of-the-Iberian-R1b-DF27-haplogroup&p=270436&viewfull=1#post270436

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16956&d=1497673991

hadleyro
10-19-2017, 01:06 AM
Greetings - most of this is beyond me as I'm just learning about SNPs so please forgive my initial ignorance. My father tested with Living DNA and was given a haplogroup of R-U152 and a subclade R-L2. I've done a Y111 test with FTDNA and was given M269 but I understand FTDNA only looks at the first 12 markers. How could we do moving forward to find out more and best participate with this group and use our larger data set to correlate data from our families FTDNA surname project? It has stalled and seems as if no one is moving forward in finding deeper roots. Cheers for any feedback the group can provide.

Osiris
10-19-2017, 08:13 AM
At FTDNA I would join the U152 project and send the admin a message saying you were tested positive for L2 at another company. They can give advise on the best way to proceed. Of course your budget will also affect how you want to proceed. But at least joining the project is free.

MitchellSince1893
10-19-2017, 11:36 AM
Greetings - most of this is beyond me as I'm just learning about SNPs so please forgive my initial ignorance. My father tested with Living DNA and was given a haplogroup of R-U152 and a subclade R-L2. I've done a Y111 test with FTDNA and was given M269 but I understand FTDNA only looks at the first 12 markers. How could we do moving forward to find out more and best participate with this group and use our larger data set to correlate data from our families FTDNA surname project? It has stalled and seems as if no one is moving forward in finding deeper roots. Cheers for any feedback the group can provide.

The next step in testing would be for you to do the BigY test, or L2 SNP Pack test. Former is more expensive but it will tell you more.

kw5368
10-19-2017, 04:52 PM
Greetings - most of this is beyond me as I'm just learning about SNPs so please forgive my initial ignorance. My father tested with Living DNA and was given a haplogroup of R-U152 and a subclade R-L2. I've done a Y111 test with FTDNA and was given M269 but I understand FTDNA only looks at the first 12 markers. How could we do moving forward to find out more and best participate with this group and use our larger data set to correlate data from our families FTDNA surname project? It has stalled and seems as if no one is moving forward in finding deeper roots. Cheers for any feedback the group can provide.

Take your STRs from your Y-111 and run them through the Nevgen predictor: http://www.nevgen.org/ Make sure you go to the settings to the left and select R1b and select L2 in the dropdown box for your known SNP. You can copy and paste your STRs into the box if you have them in a file or enter them manually.

I have found this predictor to work very well and will give you an idea of what SNP pack you might want to buy next. If you decide to go Big Y, they will probably have a good sale around Christmas.

Ken

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2018, 05:02 AM
From the supplemental data in the recently release final Olade et al paper. These are all U152>L2

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/85/44/7985440efd6d9f68b77f8e532a651994.png

Map of these locations (only 1 pin per location)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/79/1f/58/791f588feb2705423cdf1a2f96078bfe.png

Jean-Pierre
02-22-2018, 06:42 AM
The one in Southern France probably came back from his vacation at the Côte d'Azur !

MitchellSince1893
02-22-2018, 05:31 PM
Richard Rocca maintains an ancient U152 dna map located here. https://www.google.com/maps/@46.943775,8.1326243,5.75z/data=!4m2!6m1!1s1RHkzeURhYIvWNnnoqTACynMuSPc?hl=en

R.Rocca
02-22-2018, 07:49 PM
This map has just the Bell Beaker samples. Guess my Bell Beaker East (Begleitkeramik users) hypothesis from many years ago was spot on huh? :D

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?hl=en&mid=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&ll=47.771149051546736%2C12.711779999999976&z=6

Shamash
02-22-2018, 07:49 PM
As far as our subclade is concerned nothing downstream from L2 (Z49>Z142>etc.) has been found in ancient samples yet?

Osiris
02-24-2018, 08:56 AM
I can't wait for the news. I had a little fun though. I downloaded the BAM files for E09569 and I3875 and managed to look at them in the NCBI Genome Workbench. I saw the L2 SNP and poked around looking for anything below that based on the Big Tree but couldn't find anything other than a lot of negative SNPs. It's certainly not easy and I certainly could have missed a lot. I wonder how our gurus get things done as I'm sure they have other tools then the brute force I was using. Certainly my extreme gratitude to them for the work I'm sure they're doing now.

R.Rocca
02-25-2018, 02:33 AM
I checked known SNPs one and two levels down from L2 and this is what I came up with:

Sample E09569: P312+ L2+ BY2825+
Augsburg, Bavaria, 2396–2148 calBCE

Sample I5833: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5835

Sample I5835: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5833

Sample I4886: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2205–2042 calBCE

Sample I4888: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2190–2029 calBCE

Sample I4889: P312+ L2+ Z384+ Z367- Z258-
Prague, Czech Republic, 2281–2062 calBCE

Sample I7251: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- Z382-
Brandýsek, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Sample I7287: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- 22432368-
Radovesice, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Obviously the Z384+ and Z258+ calls contradict each other. If I had to guess, I'd say the two Czech Z258+ samples are valid. The big shock is that there were no Z49 samples.

Jean-Pierre
02-25-2018, 08:01 AM
Obviously the Z384+ and Z258+ calls contradict each other. If I had to guess, I'd say the two Czech Z258+ samples are valid. The big shock is that there were no Z49 samples.

Can Z258 not be a subclade of Z384?

Shamash
02-25-2018, 08:26 AM
The big shock is that there were no Z49 samples.

Do you have an idea why? Sampling bias or maybe something else?

asquecco
02-25-2018, 01:55 PM
I checked known SNPs one and two levels down from L2 and this is what I came up with:

Sample E09569: P312+ L2+ BY2825+
Augsburg, Bavaria, 2396–2148 calBCE

Sample I5833: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5835

Sample I5835: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5833

Sample I4886: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2205–2042 calBCE

Sample I4888: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2190–2029 calBCE

Sample I4889: P312+ L2+ Z384+ Z367- Z258-
Prague, Czech Republic, 2281–2062 calBCE

Sample I7251: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- Z382-
Brandýsek, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Sample I7287: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- 22432368-
Radovesice, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Obviously the Z384+ and Z258+ calls contradict each other. If I had to guess, I'd say the two Czech Z258+ samples are valid. The big shock is that there were no Z49 samples.

I think very few L2 samples show Z49 values.
If I'm not wrong, among I2365 I3589 I3597 I3875 I4889 I5519 I5529 I5659 I6480 I6580 I6581 I7212 I7286 I7289 I was only able to see Z49 reported (ancestral) in I4889 I5519 I6480.
I will check the other samples soon.

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2018, 03:56 PM
I checked known SNPs one and two levels down from L2 and this is what I came up with:

Sample E09569: P312+ L2+ BY2825+
Augsburg, Bavaria, 2396–2148 calBCE

Sample I5833: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5835

Sample I5835: P312+ L2+ DF110+
Irlbach, Bavaria, Germany, ~2500–2000 BCE
Note: First-degree relative of I5833

Sample I4886: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2205–2042 calBCE

Sample I4888: P312+ L2+ BY3483+
Prague, Czech Republic, 2190–2029 calBCE

Sample I4889: P312+ L2+ Z384+ Z367- Z258-
Prague, Czech Republic, 2281–2062 calBCE

Sample I7251: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- Z382-
Brandýsek, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Sample I7287: P312+ L2+ Z258+ Z367- 22432368-
Radovesice, Czech Republic, ~2500–2200 BCE

Obviously the Z384+ and Z258+ calls contradict each other. If I had to guess, I'd say the two Czech Z258+ samples are valid. The big shock is that there were no Z49 samples.

Just some quick observations of the above and other Bell Beaker samples:

1. This may be our first sign of the SNP order of the Z384, Z258, and Z367 branch with Z384 occurring first, then Z258, 2nd, then, Z367. But it could also be that I4889, I7251, and I7287 are all on extinct lines.
2. If this is indeed the order for this branch then it would mean that Z384 is no older than 2281 BC, Z258 is no older than ~2260BC, and Z367 is no older than ~2240BC based on the I4889 result.

3. U152>L2 most likely lived before 2200 BC based on the above date ranges and the I3875 L2+ result (2459–2242 BCE, Villard, France)
4. RISE563 had a question mark for L2, so it may in the 2500 BC range or earlier.

5. The absence of Z49 (currently the largest branch of L2 in the FTDNA U152 project) could be for multiple reasons. Just a few that came to mind. I'm sure there are many more.
a. Z49 wasn't in these areas
b. Z49's rapid growth occurred post bell beaker
c. Z49 was in these areas but missed out on the random Olade sample lottery.
d. Z49 was not part of the upper Bell Beaker hierarchy
e. The Z49 SNP mutation occurred later than the other L2 subclades listed above.
--ytree.net aka Alex Williamson's Bigtree has 95% confidence interval for Z49 is 2800 BC to 1858 BC.
--Iain McDonald doesn't have a Z49 date range but Z49>Z142 is 3148 BC — 1979 BC
--yfull's best guess date is 4190 years before present (ybp) or 2240 BC (click on info box located here https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z49/ )

R.Rocca
02-25-2018, 04:04 PM
I think very few L2 samples show Z49 values.
If I'm not wrong, among I2365 I3589 I3597 I3875 I4889 I5519 I5529 I5659 I6480 I6580 I6581 I7212 I7286 I7289 I was only able to see Z49 reported (ancestral) in I4889 I5519 I6480.
I will check the other samples soon.

But Z68 is negative as well on some samples.

R.Rocca
02-25-2018, 04:37 PM
Just some quick observations of the above and other Bell Beaker samples:

2. If this is indeed the order for this branch then it would mean that Z384 is no older than 2281 BC, Z258 is no older than ~2260BC, and Z367 is no older than ~2240BC based on the I4889 result.


But there could be a contemporary Z384+Z258+ man who wasn't buried in any of these cemeteries. I think the fully formed clade could have lived on the Rhine.



5. The absence of Z49 (currently the largest branch of L2 in the FTDNA U152 project) could be for multiple reasons. Just a few that came to mind. I'm sure there are many more.
a. Z49 wasn't in these areas
b. Z49's rapid growth occurred post bell beaker
c. Z49 was in these areas but missed out on the random Olade sample lottery.
d. Z49 was not part of the upper Bell Beaker hierarchy.

a. The likeliest scenario IMO.
b. I think it is too old for that and it's star-like pattern suggests an early and successful Bell Beaker expansion. As in the case of Z348, it may be that it was living on the Rhine and not on the upper Danube.

asquecco
02-25-2018, 05:05 PM
But Z68 is negative as well on some samples.

We need to double check. I used "BAM Analysis Kit" to extract SNPs in csv format files from 30 L2 samples.
I found only 6 of them reporting Z49 and 1 of them reporting Z68. All of them were ancestral.
Here is the converted data:
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/Olade_et_al_L2_A.zip
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/Olade_et_al_L2_B.zip

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2018, 05:27 PM
But there could be a contemporary Z384+Z258+ man who wasn't buried in any of these cemeteries. I think the fully formed clade could have lived on the Rhine.
True. That's why I said "it could also be that I4889, I7251, and I7287 are all on extinct lines."




a. The likeliest scenario IMO.
b. I think it is too old for that and it's star-like pattern suggests an early and successful Bell Beaker expansion. As in the case of Z348, it may be that it was living on the Rhine and not on the upper Danube.

That's a good point. Understanding the pitfalls of using present day distribution, the FTDNA Z49 project map does show a clustering in this area
21745

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1wfe7tN3dkuKMojEUD6Pw9pqI_1aEZLCk&ll=48.800291876172956%2C10.056567233398482&z=4

And here was a map I did back in 2015. Located in this thread https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2729-Z49-where-did-it-come-from-How-did-it-expand&p=91449&viewfull=1#post91449

If I was to redo that exercise, I think it would come out further east near the Rhine
https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5024&d=1434920223

MitchellSince1893
02-25-2018, 05:41 PM
I have a bad memory. In this thread from 2015, I posted https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2729-Z49-where-did-it-come-from-How-did-it-expand&p=72066&viewfull=1#post72066


So maybe the origin of Z49 was with the Upper Rhine Bell Beaker folks to the east of the Z49 center point?

Either too many posts or I'm just getting old.

geiserich
02-25-2018, 08:10 PM
There are only some subclades of L2 on the Upper Danube. The other subclades of L2, especially Z49 originated elsewhere, probably near the Rhine. As a consequence, we can say the origin of L2 can`t be on the Upper Danube. Do you believe the origin of L2 may be rather in the East, near the steppe or at another place? (Don`t forget the U152-PF6658 in a North-German Bell Beaker in Quedlinburg I0805).
Probably L2 and U152 originated in the same region.
By the way, the other main subclades of U152, like Z36, Z56 and Z193(PF6658) are missing in these Bell Beaker too.
What do you think?

Jean-Pierre
02-25-2018, 08:32 PM
"3. U152>L2 most likely lived before 2200 BC based on the above date ranges and the I3875 L2+ result (2459–2242 BCE, Villard, France)"

I read another date for the I3875 skeleton: 2134–1947 calBCE.

So, if I'm not mistaken we have L2+ from about 2350 BC in Hungary and the Czech Republic, from about 2300 BC in Poland, from about 2250 BC in Germany, and from about 2050 BC in South-France.
According to these facts, I believe that L2 originated in or to the South-East of Hungary.

167273
02-25-2018, 08:57 PM
Maybe sample i2478 from Parma could be something like Z56?
if someone look at him seeper, according study is U152,but not L2?.

theImmortal
02-25-2018, 10:48 PM
We need to double check. I used "BAM Analysis Kit" to extract SNPs in csv format files from 30 L2 samples.
I found only 6 of them reporting Z49 and 1 of them reporting Z68. All of them were ancestral.
Here is the converted data:
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/Olade_et_al_L2_A.zip
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/Olade_et_al_L2_B.zip

Thanks for creating these. Perhaps someone else already did this, but curiosity got the better of me. I merged them all into a single spreadsheet and searched them for every SNP downstream of Z49 listed on the Big Tree. Came up with a big fat nothing (i.e., none of the kits were derived for any SNP downstream of Z49).

Then I did the same for U152, and the only SNP derived, other than L2, was CTS9733 (and was found to be derived in 5 out of 5 cases).

Based on a quick Google search, this appears to be an irrelevant SNP, but I have two hyperactive toddlers who need attention at the moment, so I don't have time to look into it. If anyone wants it, here's (https://www.dropbox.com/s/58wctf6c5lhwy57/All%20Olade%20Files%20-%20compared%20to%20all%20U152%20downstream%20SNPs. xlsx?dl=0) the Excel file.
After running the queries, I converted the columns that contained functions to plain text, since this file is at about 50% of Excel's max row limit, and not doing so makes everything take five minutes.

MitchellSince1893
02-26-2018, 02:58 AM
There are only some subclades of L2 on the Upper Danube. The other subclades of L2, especially Z49 originated elsewhere, probably near the Rhine. As a consequence, we can say the origin of L2 can`t be on the Upper Danube. Do you believe the origin of L2 may be rather in the East, near the steppe or at another place? (Don`t forget the U152-PF6658 in a North-German Bell Beaker in Quedlinburg I0805).
Probably L2 and U152 originated in the same region.
By the way, the other main subclades of U152, like Z36, Z56 and Z193(PF6658) are missing in these Bell Beaker too.
What do you think?
JMO but I think the P312 > U152 path was somewhere in or near this region. As to where P312, U152, L2 and other U152 subclades appeared is hard to say. Maybe there was a rapid movement from the Steppes to the present day Visegrad area (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia) circa 2800 BC and then they may have settled there for a while (2800-2600 BC) before expanding further West. This is all conjecture at this point.
21751
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266234&viewfull=1#post266234

I'm not sure where exactly Z36, Z56, Z193 were during this period. We will probably have to wait for additional ancient samples to come in. Richard Rocca reminded me that I0805 had 1 read positive for PF6658 and 1 read negative, so we don't know for sure that I0805 was indeed PF6658.


"3. U152>L2 most likely lived before 2200 BC based on the above date ranges and the I3875 L2+ result (2459–2242 BCE, Villard, France)"

I read another date for the I3875 skeleton: 2134–1947 calBCE.

So, if I'm not mistaken we have L2+ from about 2350 BC in Hungary and the Czech Republic, from about 2300 BC in Poland, from about 2250 BC in Germany, and from about 2050 BC in South-France.
According to these facts, I believe that L2 originated in or to the South-East of Hungary.

Unless I cut and pasted the wrong sample from the pre-print paper, it looks like they changed the dates for I3875

The midpoint date for many of the Czech samples is 2350 BC, Hungary was 2335 BC and Poland's oldest was 2300 BC.

Richard had previously mentioned in another post this interesting fact about the Olomouc-Slavonin site in the Czech Republic.


This is quite an interesting sequence I've been looking at... Globular Amphorae Culture > Moravian Corded Ware > Moravian Bell Beaker

The settlement at Olomouc-Slavonín and possibly other sites show a mix of Corded Ware pottery with "Begleitkeramik" pottery without the decorated Bell Beaker pottery as can be seen here: https://www.academia.edu/1223032/The...f_Bell_Beakers

The only radiocarbon Corded Ware Culture dates I could find for Olomouc-Slavonín are as follows:
2840 BC ± 60
2610 BC ± 70
2550 BC ± 50

Source: https://www.academia.edu/26079634/_N...ogical_Context

Also from the Czebreszuk paper...

It is important to mention the special character of some Corded Ware cemeteries in central Moravia. Their assemblages and body positioning are keeping the traditions of the CordedWare burial rite, however, their orientation is up to the Bell Beaker fashion (north-south, south-north) . Another puzzle is also the lack of clearly Beaker burial contexts. To your point Alan, we also need to account for how archery became so important to R-L51+ men. In Moravia at least, there is a evidence of Moravian Bell Beaker arrow-making techniques being the same as that of the Moravian Corded Ware...

Evolution of the Moravian Bell Beaker culture is reflected in its lithic assemblages. During earlier phases (I and I/ II), arrowheads dominate (Kopacz, Přichystal, Šebela 2009, Plates XXV: 4, 5; XXVI: 3; XXXIV: 5). They are usually manufactured from imported lithics (Jurassic silicites from the Cracow-Częstochowa Upland, silicites from glacial sediments) as well as from local raw materials (cf. Kopacz, Přichystal, Šebela 2009, 109, 128). Characteristic elements of the lithic industry include flat invasive retouch applied to arrowheads and a flake reduction technique which already appears during the final stage of the Moravian Corded Ware culture.
Here is a map of Moravia and the expansions of Bell Beaker from/to surrounding areas...
http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Moravian_BB_Expansion.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=242380&viewfull=1#post242380

MitchellSince1893
02-26-2018, 03:04 AM
The present day distribution of Z56, Z36, L2, and PF6658 may provide a clue to their ancient origins...then again it may not

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?36-R1b-U152-Updates-News&p=155764&viewfull=1#post155764

L2 is above the U152 average in Poland and the Czech Rep
Z36 is above the U152 average in Germany, the Czech Rep, Hungary, Switzerland and Italy.
Z56 is above the U152 average in Poland, France, Italy, and Spain
Z193,PF6658 is above the U152 average in Poland

I'm hesitant to post this image below, concerned it will be taken as "fact" Rather the subclades with "?" represent possibly confirmed testing i.e.I0805 & I0806 DF27/PF6658 in N. Central Germany; or guesses on my part
21761

Celt_??
02-26-2018, 04:04 AM
I'm hesitant to post this image below, concerned it will be taken as "fact" Rather the subclades with "?" represent possibly confirmed testing i.e.I0805 & I0806 DF27/PF6658 in N. Central Germany; or guesses on my part
21761

What does "Reflux" mean? And are the arrows from Brittany, France, to The Netherlands and southwest coast of England implying a possible origin of L21 in Brittany with an eventual spread to England and Holland? If not, what do the arrows represent other than Beaker trade routes?

What does the blue area (of "reflux") in the southern half of England refer to in your scheme? Thanks a million, Mark.

MitchellSince1893
02-26-2018, 05:20 AM
What does "Reflux" mean? And are the arrows from Brittany, France, to The Netherlands and southwest coast of England implying a possible origin of L21 in Brittany with an eventual spread to England and Holland? If not, what do the arrows represent other than Beaker trade routes?

What does the blue area (of "reflux") in the southern half of England refer to in your scheme? Thanks a million, Mark.

It's not my map. I just added the subclade labels. Original map found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture Details here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Diffusione_cultura_vaso_campaniforme.svg

Celt_??
02-26-2018, 08:59 AM
It's not my map. I just added the subclade labels. Original map found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture Details here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Diffusione_cultura_vaso_campaniforme.svg

OK, now I understand whats going on. The arrows are to be ignored. Thanks.

Pylsteen
02-26-2018, 10:32 PM
It would be nice to find Z56 too, although it is maybe 1/8 of U152 at most. Some would say it is Italic, and although indeed there are many Italian and Sardinian examples, many subbranches today are German, British, French etc. instead. IMO, it was probably spread already throughout the Tumulus period area (East France/South Germany ?) with of course later spreads (Hallstatt, La Tene, perhaps Villanova for Z72, which does look Italic/Roman, but its age may also indicate a founder effect from Gallia Cisalpina IMO). Or to say it differently, more samples are desirable.

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2018, 03:27 AM
I was asked by the U152>L2>Z41150+ Z49- Project admin to calculate the geographic mid pt for his subclades. Using the U152 maps and the http://www.geomidpoint.com/ site

I got the mid point for each subclade and then I got the mid point for all of these midpoints.

The result was a point N 50.332617, E 6.99401, 26 miles West of the Rhine, River, just south of a village called Dees, Germany

21801

So it may be that L2>Z41150 (both Z49+ and Z49-) was part of the Middle/Upper Rhine Bell Beaker Group

Celt_??
02-27-2018, 04:01 AM
Thanks. I merged them all into a single spreadsheet and searched them for every SNP downstream of Z49 listed on the Big Tree. Came up with a big fat nothing (i.e., none of the kits were derived for any SNP downstream of Z49).

Then I did the same for U152, and the only SNP derived, other than L2, was CTS9733 (and was found to be derived in 5 out of 5 cases).

Whoa! CTS9733 is my surname's terminal SNP. Thanks a million for doing your experiment. Do you have their ID numbers, locations and calculated ages?

CTS9733 / S3856 is downstream of L20. It has a present day distribution from the British Isles to Sweden in the north to Italy and France and Portugal in the south. Here is Alex's chart from The Big Tree:

21802

Jean-Pierre
02-27-2018, 08:17 AM
"I got the mid point for each subclade and then I got the mid point for all of these midpoints".

Could you tell us the names of the five subclades?

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2018, 01:17 PM
"I got the mid point for each subclade and then I got the mid point for all of these midpoints".

Could you tell us the names of the five subclades?

Z41150> A6454, only has 1 location on the map in Scotland so didn't use it

U152> L2> Z41150> BY4245 map...just south of Paris


DF90 Center Point N 49.621105E 10.061448


Z41150> FGC11577 only had 2 points. center pt N 50.899984, E 12.777582


Z41150> FGC22501 center point N 51.198528 E 6.208139 near Niederkrüchten, Germany


S1567...only 2 pts. Center pt N 50.978195 E 3.633391

MitchellSince1893
02-27-2018, 01:30 PM
In this post Richard Rocca mentions U152>L2 in Scotland. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10565-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-And-The-Genomic-Transformation-Of-Northwest-Europe-Olalde&p=355784&viewfull=1#post355784

On his updated map of ancient U152 there are now 2 samples in Scotland https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=15zJwudMOPqf20VVXXNXkm4qydzTP3VW0&ll=53.86986333636788%2C2.94608280615239&z=6

I5516 P312+ FGC4183+ Scotland_CA_EBA 1866–1615 calBCE (3400±35 BP, SUERC-2869) Doune, Perth and Kinross, Scotland FGC4183 is a subclade of U152>L2

I2656_d L2+ DF110? Scotland_Late Bronze Age 1278–979 calBCE (2930±50 BP, GU-2762) Longniddry, Grainfoot, East Lothian, Scotland

This should give pause for those that still think U152 in Britain mostly arrived during the Roman period and later. No doubt that some did arrive during this period, but it's been my thought that while U152 could have arrived during the British Bell Beaker period (2500-1700 BC), a sizable proportion arrived during the late Bronze Age, Iron Age arrivals.

So I may need to revise my thoughts a little as well because technically I5515 lived during the early Bronze Age (2500-1500 BC) and possibly late Bell Beaker period, while I2656 overlaps the Middle (1500-1000 BC) and Late Bronze Age (1000-700 BC) in Britain

theImmortal
02-27-2018, 04:07 PM
Whoa! CTS9733 is my surname's terminal SNP. Thanks a million for doing your experiment. Do you have their ID numbers, locations and calculated ages?

CTS9733 / S3856 is downstream of L20. It has a present day distribution from the British Isles to Sweden in the north to Italy and France and Portugal in the south. Here is Alex's chart from The Big Tree:

21802

Sweet! I'm glad that turned out to be useful to someone. Here is the additional info from the Excel spreadsheet available on Nature.com, not behind a paywall.

Kit IDs; mtDNA haplogroup; location; and age (from SupplementaryTable1):

I4885: (U5a1i) (Prague 8, Kobylisy, Ke Stírce Street) (Czech Rep.) (2289–2143 calBCE (3790±20 BP, PSUAMS-2843))
I6580: (K1a1b2b) (Jordanów Śląski) (2300–2150 BCE)
I7205: (H10+(16093)) (Radovesice) (2500–2200 BCE)
I7269: (T2e) (Brandýsek) (2500–2200 BCE)
I7289: (U8b1b1) (Radovesice) (2500–2200 BCE)

Only I4885 had more specific age data, as you can see. It is also says that I4885 is "2-3d_rel_I4886" which I'm assuming means that I4886 was a 2nd-3rd cousin based on autosomal DNA analysis. This kit, I4886, was from the same site, is also L2, has an mtDNA haplogroup listed as H6a, and has more specific age data as well: 2205–2042 calBCE (3740±20 BP, PSUAMS-2844).

I don't really understand why a kit would be 2205-2042 calBCE, but then be 3740+/- 20 BP, nor do I know what PSUAMS stands for.

asquecco
02-27-2018, 06:23 PM
Thanks for creating these. Perhaps someone else already did this, but curiosity got the better of me. I merged them all into a single spreadsheet and searched them for every SNP downstream of Z49 listed on the Big Tree. Came up with a big fat nothing (i.e., none of the kits were derived for any SNP downstream of Z49).

Then I did the same for U152, and the only SNP derived, other than L2, was CTS9733 (and was found to be derived in 5 out of 5 cases).

Based on a quick Google search, this appears to be an irrelevant SNP, but I have two hyperactive toddlers who need attention at the moment, so I don't have time to look into it. If anyone wants it, here's (https://www.dropbox.com/s/58wctf6c5lhwy57/All%20Olade%20Files%20-%20compared%20to%20all%20U152%20downstream%20SNPs. xlsx?dl=0) the Excel file.
After running the queries, I converted the columns that contained functions to plain text, since this file is at about 50% of Excel's max row limit, and not doing so makes everything take five minutes.

"BAM Analysis Kit" also creates files with "Y-DNA Novel Variants" (considered as novel when this utility was released).
Here is the list of these Novel Variants for the 30 samples I considered:
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/BB-L2-SAMPLES-Novel_Variants.xlsx

I2365 G A Y30912
I5833 G A DF110
I4889 G A FGC26711
I2365 C T Z15024

Being "Z49/S8183 et al." from a North Italian Carno-Celtic place, I'm interested in these old L2 samples.

Osiris
02-27-2018, 06:46 PM
Z41150> A6454, only has 1 location on the map in Scotland so didn't use itWish we were a little easier to find. Seems we had a lot of early immigrants to the US and our continental cousins haven't tested yet. We seem to have a very early split between a line that went to Scotland/Ireland and another that stayed on the continent. Then for the continentals a university linguist guessed we came from around the Kingdom of Saxony based on writing in an old family bible and we have a Sardinian man in the 1000 genomes project from about halfway back to L2. Doesn't really give a midpoint just a very very very light smear over all of Europe which isn't particularly useful.

theImmortal
02-27-2018, 07:01 PM
"BAM Analysis Kit" also creates files with "Y-DNA Novel Variants" (considered as novel when this utility was released).
Here is the list of these Novel Variants for the 30 samples I considered:
http://digilander.libero.it/asquecco/Olade_et_al_2018/BB-L2-SAMPLES-Novel_Variants.xlsx

I2365 G A Y30912
I5833 G A DF110
I4889 G A FGC26711
I2365 C T Z15024

Being "Z49/S8183 et al." from a North Italian Carno-Celtic place, I'm interested in these old L2 samples.

Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, if I run my novel variants from my Big Y page against Column A in Sheet 1 of this file, it will tell me if any novel variants were run and detected in any of the 30 L2 kits? (I didn't find any, not surprisingly...)

Celt_??
02-27-2018, 07:09 PM
Sweet! I'm glad that turned out to be useful to someone. Here is the additional info from the Excel spreadsheet available on Nature.com, not behind a paywall.

Thank you again. Just to confirm, these 5 men were L2+ and you found then CTS9733+. Were these 5 also positive for the important SNP L20 which is downstream from L2?

When you have time would you share the link to Supplementary Table 1? I had a complimentary look at the Nature article but couldn't find any links to that Tables.

asquecco
02-27-2018, 07:40 PM
Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, if I run my novel variants from my Big Y page against Column A in Sheet 1 of this file, it will tell me if any novel variants were run and detected in any of the 30 L2 kits? (I didn't find any, not surprisingly...)

That's correct but Big Y Unnamed Variants positions are Hg38 if you download them from FTDNA. In the spreadsheet you must use Hg19.
For this reason in the spreadsheet (folder Novel-R-Y5383) I played with my Big Y and FGC Novel SNPs downloaded from YFull (Hg19).

R.Rocca
02-27-2018, 08:13 PM
"3. U152>L2 most likely lived before 2200 BC based on the above date ranges and the I3875 L2+ result (2459–2242 BCE, Villard, France)"

I read another date for the I3875 skeleton: 2134–1947 calBCE.

So, if I'm not mistaken we have L2+ from about 2350 BC in Hungary and the Czech Republic, from about 2300 BC in Poland, from about 2250 BC in Germany, and from about 2050 BC in South-France.
According to these facts, I believe that L2 originated in or to the South-East of Hungary.

Yes, but the oldest U152+ sample we have is RISE563 Bell Beaker (2571–2341 calBCE [3955±35 BP, Poz-84553]) from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany. Given that there was no read for L2 on that sample and that the other sample was L2+ (estimated date of 2500–2000 BCE), it could be that RISE563 was L2+ as well.

Also, consider that the next oldest P312 sample is all the way in the Netherlands:

I5748 Bell Beaker (2579–2233 calBCE [3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C]), De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland

theImmortal
02-27-2018, 08:27 PM
Thank you again. Just to confirm, these 5 men were L2+ and you found then CTS9733+. Were these 5 also positive for the important SNP L20 which is downstream from L2?

When you have time would you share the link to Supplementary Table 1? I had a complimentary look at the Nature article but couldn't find any links to that Tables.

So this is the link to download the Excel file (https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature25738-s3.xlsx).

None of those 5 kits were derived for L20, and all of them except I6580 were tested for it. And yes, they're all L2+. In total, 18 out of 30 L2+ kits were tested for L20, and none of them came back as derived. It's possible that CTS9733 is an unreliable SNP.

I think you know this already, but if you dig into it, be aware that an L20 kit was used to create the reference values for the Y-chromosome. So these kits all show the reference as "A" and the genotype as "G," but still not derived, and this is correct. If the genotype were "A" then they would be derived, even though the reference is also "A."

ACTUALLY... (I'm not deleting the above because I think this is helpful). Here's what I think happened.

The kits that were tested for and reported as derived for CTS9733 show as 19045124-C-T. Alex Williamson has CTS9733 as 19045124-T-C.

I bet the L20 kit that was used to create the reference values actually had the CTS9733 mutation, but this does not account for that. Perhaps asquecco can help with this, because I don't know how he created the spreadsheets I'm using.

R.Rocca
02-27-2018, 09:01 PM
So this is the link to download the Excel file (https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature25738-s3.xlsx).

None of those 5 kits were derived for L20, and all of them except I6580 were tested for it. And yes, they're all L2+. In total, 18 out of 30 L2+ kits were tested for L20, and none of them came back as derived. It's possible that CTS9733 is an unreliable SNP.

I think you know this already, but if you dig into it, be aware that an L20 kit was used to create the reference values for the Y-chromosome. So these kits all show the reference as "A" and the genotype as "G," but still not derived, and this is correct. If the genotype were "A" then they would be derived, even though the reference is also "A."

ACTUALLY... (I'm not deleting the above because I think this is helpful). Here's what I think happened.

The kits that were tested for and reported as derived for CTS9733 show as 19045124-C-T. Alex Williamson has CTS9733 as 19045124-T-C.

I bet the L20 kit that was used to create the reference values actually had the CTS9733 mutation, but this does not account for that. Perhaps asquecco can help with this, because I don't know how he created the spreadsheets I'm using.

Here is the long winded explanation: One of the men that provided science with the DNA to create the reference genome sequence was L2+ Z367+ L20+ CTS9733+. So, when programs read the base sequence for CTS9733, the values are reversed. The ancestral (negative) value for CTS9733 is 'T' and the derived (positive) value is 'C'.

asquecco
02-27-2018, 09:13 PM
So this is the link to download the Excel file (https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nature25738-s3.xlsx).

None of those 5 kits were derived for L20, and all of them except I6580 were tested for it. And yes, they're all L2+. In total, 18 out of 30 L2+ kits were tested for L20, and none of them came back as derived. It's possible that CTS9733 is an unreliable SNP.

I think you know this already, but if you dig into it, be aware that an L20 kit was used to create the reference values for the Y-chromosome. So these kits all show the reference as "A" and the genotype as "G," but still not derived, and this is correct. If the genotype were "A" then they would be derived, even though the reference is also "A."

ACTUALLY... (I'm not deleting the above because I think this is helpful). Here's what I think happened.

The kits that were tested for and reported as derived for CTS9733 show as 19045124-C-T. Alex Williamson has CTS9733 as 19045124-T-C.

I bet the L20 kit that was used to create the reference values actually had the CTS9733 mutation, but this does not account for that. Perhaps asquecco can help with this, because I don't know how he created the spreadsheets I'm using.

"BAM Analysis Kit" software reported CTS9733 derived based on the (wrong) assumption there is a C (Reference) to T (Genotype) mutation.
As shown by ISOGG YBrowse, the real mutation is T to C:
http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=chrY;start=16933244;end=16933244;name=CTS 9733;class=Sequence;feature_id=74336;db_id=chrY%3A database
So this mutation reported by the utility must be rejected.

Jean-Pierre
02-28-2018, 05:18 AM
"Yes, but the oldest U152+ sample we have is RISE563 Bell Beaker (2571–2341 calBCE [3955±35 BP, Poz-84553]) from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Germany. Given that there was no read for L2 on that sample and that the other sample was L2+ (estimated date of 2500–2000 BCE), it could be that RISE563 was L2+ as well.

Also, consider that the next oldest P312 sample is all the way in the Netherlands:

I5748 Bell Beaker (2579–2233 calBCE [3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C]), De Tuithoorn, Oostwoud, Noord-Holland"

Yes, I know this thanks to you. The east-west cline of where L2 showed up was just striking me. But I agree that we have not enough samples to make conclusions.

R.Rocca
03-14-2018, 01:32 PM
Bell Beaker sample I6480, which was already known to be P312+ and L2+ is positive for 17210676(G>T). He is dated to ~2500–1900 BCE from Velké Přílepy, Czech Republic.

Ytree shows the fully formed block that 17210676(G>T) belongs to (A19718 = 6373740(C>T), A19725 = 16216981(G>A)) contains samples from Romania, Italy and England, so definitely a wide and old but sparse distribution. While the fully formed block may be too young (~2107.91 YBP), the parent block is L2 itself (~4340.14 YBP).

asquecco
03-18-2018, 10:41 PM
"BAM Analysis Kit" software reported CTS9733 derived based on the (wrong) assumption there is a C (Reference) to T (Genotype) mutation.
As shown by ISOGG YBrowse, the real mutation is T to C:
http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=chrY;start=16933244;end=16933244;name=CTS 9733;class=Sequence;feature_id=74336;db_id=chrY%3A database
So this mutation reported by the utility must be rejected.

To improve this BAM analysis, after reading this article:
https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/yleaf-software-for-human-y-chromosomal-haplogroup-inference-from-next-generation-sequencing-data/
I installed Yleaf as explained here:
https://www.erasmusmc.nl/genetic_identification/resources/Yleaf/
and then I processed all the 228 male BAM files available from Olalde et al. 2018.
For those interested in checking Yleaf outcome, here are the output files:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dImXjIElnJuMzQ4m3N6gxk7_t_qknblU

theImmortal
03-20-2018, 02:15 PM
To improve this BAM analysis, after reading this article:
https://indo-european.eu/2018/03/yleaf-software-for-human-y-chromosomal-haplogroup-inference-from-next-generation-sequencing-data/
I installed Yleaf as explained here:
https://www.erasmusmc.nl/genetic_identification/resources/Yleaf/
and then I processed all the 228 male BAM files available from Olalde et al. 2018.
For those interested in checking Yleaf outcome, here are the output files:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dImXjIElnJuMzQ4m3N6gxk7_t_qknblU

What's the best software program to use to read the output files?

ArmandoR1b
03-20-2018, 03:35 PM
What's the best software program to use to read the output files?
I opened one with with Excel. They are tab separated files.

Osiris
09-14-2018, 11:09 PM
Would it be a good idea to get a sticky thread about discussion of U152 positive samples from ancient and medieval DNA papers?

Jean-Pierre
09-15-2018, 06:43 AM
Yes, for me it would be a good idee. Or even L2 positive ancient DNA samples.