PDA

View Full Version : J-FGC3723 origins and current distribution



Shamash
05-11-2017, 11:07 PM
Hi everybody,

I would like to dedicate this specific thread to my own small but nevertheless interesting subclade FGC3273. I would also like to stimulate a discussion about its possible origins and its current distribution and discuss actual new results. The reason I decided to open a new thread is a brandnew result: FTDNA kit 438809, the only Yemeni Jewish kit in the J1 y-DNA project (with Levitical status!) has just turned out J-FGC3708 and we'll see soon if he's also FGC3706 which happens to be my subclade. Actually he's Z18258- and also Z18256- which is the other relevant subclade under FGC3708. Right now we have a FGC3723 concentration in Yemen and Saudi Arabia (Hijaz). The distribution map shows you that it could be present sporadically all over the Middle East. We have a Greek sample, a Portuguese one, a whole cluster in the Southern German speaking area (Germany and Austria). Quite a lot of Arabs with a Hashemite (Quraish) oral tradition, a Kurdish Jewish Kit and three Yemeni Jewish samples one with Levitical roots. One clade under Z18256 belongs to the Yafi tribe in Yemen but also other tribes like Madhhij, Ans, Akk, Nimr, Thaqif and Shammar and some others are present within FGC3723 and many samples claim a Himyarite origin! The clade is also present in Eritrea and Ethiopia maybe due to Sabaean colonies in the 2nd millennium BCE.

The current distribution map can be found here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ax-JxL_RhhkLrxl-lOwAsu3oGBQ&hl=en_US&ll=31.574202679588527%2C22.371183599999995&z=4

The y-DNA results within the J1 project are here:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults

Akra20m
05-11-2017, 11:47 PM
Hello
Interesting to see that you have J1-FGC3706 as your paternal haplogroup. We have J-FGC3708 as common SNP. Do you have any family history that links you to the middle east (assuming of course this subclade originated in the this region) ?
btw I also have Himyarite ancestry.

Agamemnon
05-12-2017, 12:26 AM
An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.

fished
05-12-2017, 02:03 AM
How old is this subclade?

Agamemnon
05-12-2017, 02:08 AM
How old is this subclade?

FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.

fished
05-12-2017, 02:14 AM
FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.

I wonder how it wound up in Germany and Austria. Do any Ashkenazim belong to this subclade?

wandering_amorite
05-12-2017, 05:06 AM
An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.

Had never heard of Razihi, and had no clue anyone thought there were extant descendants of Old South Arabian. Thanks for the info! Surprising little material to browse online.

Shamash
05-12-2017, 06:43 AM
Hello
Interesting to see that you have J1-FGC3706 as your paternal haplogroup. We have J-FGC3708 as common SNP. Do you have any family history that links you to the middle east (assuming of course this subclade originated in the this region) ?
btw I also have Himyarite ancestry.

Hi nice to meet you! I have no ties to the Middle East, my family is Austrian and I have no idea how we ended up being here. FGC3723 was first discovered a few years ago in the FullGenomes y-DNA sequence of my sample and I am still continuing to research it. It's a rather interesting and surprising subclade of FGC11.

Shamash
05-12-2017, 06:45 AM
I wonder how it wound up in Germany and Austria. Do any Ashkenazim belong to this subclade?

No, as fas as I know it's not present in Ashenazim, but in Mizrahim (Oriental Jews) as we have three Yemeni Jewish Kits and one Kurdish Jewish kit. The Kurdish Jewish kit's linguistic background is Aramaic.

There are quite a few origin scenarios possible: my ancestor could have been a Yemeni soldier ending up in the Roman army or a Frankincense trader. Just remember that Minaean (Old South Arabian) inscriptions have been on the Greek island of Delos! In addition he could have been - at least in theory - also Yemeni Jewish. But this is all mere speculation and none of the scenarios could be true as well as we still don't know the distribution pattern of FGC3723 4000 and 3000 years ago. But the Yemeni Old South Arabian association is quite strong I'd say.

Shamash
05-12-2017, 06:53 AM
FGC3723's TMRCA is about 5,000 years old.

My personal guess is that it is quite a few centuries younger as FGC11 as a whole is estimated to be only 4600 years old, FGC3708 ca. 4300 years and FGC3706 (my subclade) ca. 3200 years while Z18256 is about 3800 years old. My closest SNP-match (FGC3706+) at the moment is a Yemeni kit belonging to the Al-Rassi family claiming descent from Ali. We'll see in a month if the Yemeni Jewish kit will eventually turn out to be also FGC3706+. All these dates are from Victar's J1 tree.

Sorry for the three consecutive posts. Would have prefered the multiquote function.

Shamash
05-25-2017, 10:36 AM
An association with Old South Arabian is extremely likely, IMO FGC3723 will be found in Razihi speakers.

Thanks for mentioning Razihi, which meanwhile is believed to be a direct descendant of OSA altough it is still not very researched. Angela Watson published 2011 a paper investigating the ties between modern Yemeni dialects and OSA referencing and quoting examples from Razihi:

South Arabian and Yemeni dialects

ABSTRACT
It has traditionally been assumed that with the Islamic conquests Arabic overwhelmed the original ancient languages of the Peninsula, leaving the language situation in the south-western Arabian Peninsula as one in which dialects of Arabic are tinged, to a greater or lesser degree, with substrate features of the ancient South Arabian languages. The ancient Arab grammarians had clear ideas concerning the difference between the non-Arabic languages of the Peninsula and Arabic, including the -t feminine nominal ending in all states and -n versus the -l definite article.. Today, however, we read about ‘Arabic’ dialects that exhibit large proportions of ‘non-Arabic’ features. Here I compare phonological, morphological, lexical and syntactic data from several contemporary varieties spoken within historical Yemen – within the borders of current Yemen into southern ‘Asīr – with data from Ancient South Arabian, Sabaean, and Modern South Arabian, Mehri, as spoken in the far east of Yemen. On the basis of these comparisons I suggest that Arabic may not have replaced all the ancient languages of the Peninsula, and that we may be witnessing the rediscovery of descendants of the ancient languages.

The Yemeni and ‘Asīri dialects considered are:
Yemen: Rāziḥīt, Minabbih, Xašir, San‘ani, Ġaylħabbān
‘Asīr: Rijāl Alma‛, Abha, Faifi

Keywords: Arabic, Semitic, Ancient South Arabian, Modern South Arabian, lateral sibilants, relative clauses

Shamash
08-03-2017, 06:31 AM
Kit 438809, Kobashi (Yemeni jewish), turned out fgc3706- but is fgc3708+ and fgc3695- thus breaking up the fgc3708-node. FGC3723 is getting more and more substructured.

17905

This is FTDNA's most recent haplotree taking this into account:

17906

Shamash
10-09-2017, 08:08 PM
Not related to my subclade but nevertheless cool & interesting: a genetic Cohen from Yemen, FTDNA kit 476158, Al-Abdali from Wadi Yahar, عبدالله العبدلي العبادل-وادي يهر , J-Z18271, negative for the downstream SNPs: ZS237, S12192 & Z18290.

Doesn't seem Jewish to me at this point but the sample is very likely of Jewish descent.

Thus IMO it could be very probable that Israelites took part in the Judaization of Himyar.

So we have Levitical Yemeni Jewish samples in Israel that most likely descend from converted Himyarites on the one hand and modern Muslim Arab samples from Yemen that most likely descend from Israelites! Isn't that exactly we want population history to be like? Why simple if it can be complex? :P

Agamemnon
10-09-2017, 08:38 PM
Not related to my subclade but nevertheless cool & interesting: a genetic Cohen from Yemen, FTDNA kit 476158, Al-Abdali from Wadi Yahar, عبدالله العبدلي العبادل-وادي يهر , J-Z18271, negative for the downstream SNPs: ZS237, S12192 & Z18290.

Doesn't seem Jewish to me at this point but the sample is very likely of Jewish descent.

Thus IMO it could be very probable that Israelites took part in the Judaization of Himyar.

So we have Levitical Yemeni Jewish samples in Israel that most likely descend from converted Himyarites on the one hand and modern Muslim Arab samples from Yemen that most likely descend from Israelites! Isn't that exactly we want population history to be like? Why simple if it can be complex? :P

I'm quite certain that Yemeni Jews have some Israelite ancestry, in fact I suspect that they are related to the Jewish tribes of Yathrib for instance (the Bani Qurayza were of Kohanic descent for example, so they probably carried J1-Z18271). This individual is probably descended from Yemeni Jews.

Shamash
10-09-2017, 08:40 PM
I'm quite certain that Yemeni Jews have some Israelite ancestry, in fact I suspect that they are related to the Jewish tribes of Yathrib for instance.

Absolutely! Christian Julien Robin wrote in 2004 an essay on that including like you do Yathrib (modern Medina) as a crucial point in the Judaization process of Yemen: Himyar and Israel.

Download link:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297116742_Himyar_and_Israel

sam-iJ-ZS1727
10-10-2017, 12:57 AM
The J-FGC3723 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10579-J-FGC3723-origins-and-current-distribution/page2) is found especially in tribes of Himyarite Origin. in the year 380 (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/380) AC , King Abîkarib As'ad Converted to Judaism and decided to ban Polytheism from his Kingdom. In the 6th century Ac, religious troubles between yemeni christian an jews were at their summit. King Kaleb the Abyssinian invaded Himyar and put a christian Vassal. After the invasion most of yemeni jews fled the country.

Shamash
02-02-2018, 01:56 PM
A few new FGC3723+ samples have been added to the map.

Interesting the fact that all these do not stem from the Southwestern part of the Arabian peninsula:

* One sample hails origin from Arcadia in mainland Greece.

* One from the Diyala province of Iraq.

* A few from the Persian gulf area (Bahrain, Qatar and Dammam in KSA).

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ax-JxL_RhhkLrxl-lOwAsu3oGBQ&hl=en_US&ll=32.626237858710645%2C22.371183599999995&z=4

Noteworthy: the complete lack of FGC3723+ samples in the Levant so far!

21163

Shamash
05-20-2018, 06:52 AM
Noteworthy: the complete lack of FGC3723+ samples in the Levant so far!



Last but not least we got our first Levantine FGC3723+ sample from Northwest Jordan. Interestingly negative for all subclades. BigY results are pending.

Edit: The sample stems from Anjara and the FGC3723 distribution map has been updated!

Agamemnon
05-20-2018, 10:24 AM
Last but not least we got our first Levantine FGC3723+ sample from Northwest Jordan. Interestingly negative for all subclades. BigY results are pending.

Going off the contemporary data we are already seeing signs that the Levant was YSC234's diversity hotspot, I expect this to extend all the way back to L862 once we get more ancient data from the Levant.

Shamash
05-20-2018, 11:52 AM
Going off the contemporary data we are already seeing signs that the Levant was YSC234's diversity hotspot, I expect this to extend all the way back to L862 once we get more ancient data from the Levant.

Agamemnon, looks like the Levant is one of our ancestral homelands! :)

Lupriac
09-14-2018, 07:00 PM
There are quite a few origin scenarios possible: my ancestor could have been a Yemeni soldier ending up in the Roman army or a Frankincense trader. Just remember that Minaean (Old South Arabian) inscriptions have been on the Greek island of Delos!

The thing is, the Romans tried to bring down the wealthy Yemeni kingdoms but they couldn't after long time. They named Yemen "Arabia Felix", Happy Arabia. I don't think the Romans were able to capture anyone from there.

Maybe your ancestor was a Yemeni soldier enlisted in Sassanian army. Then after some battle, he was captured by the Romans, and assigned as a soldier to serve at the infamous German frontier, or he could have been freed and settled in modern-day Austria.

Also what if your ancestors belonged to the Sabaeans, who migrated to Levant after the great dam was destroyed. The dam's destruction was far beyond repair, so their descendants would become Romans from so on. And remember many Syrians (Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians in general) were enlisted in the Roman army and fought on several frontiers and even settled after conquests.

Recent archaeological findings suggest that simple earth dams and a canal network were constructed as far back as 2000 BC. The Great Dam of Ma'rib dates back to about the 8th century BC and is considered the oldest known dam in the world, being counted as one of the most wonderful feats of engineering in the ancient world. It is between three mountains, and the flood waters all flow to the one location, and because of that the water only discharges in one direction; and the ancients blocked that place with hard rocks and lead.

Shamash
09-16-2018, 08:10 PM
Maybe your ancestor was a Yemeni soldier enlisted in Sassanian army. Then after some battle, he was captured by the Romans, and assigned as a soldier to serve at the infamous German frontier, or he could have been freed and settled in modern-day Austria.

Also what if your ancestors belonged to the Sabaeans, who migrated to Levant after the great dam was destroyed. The dam's destruction was far beyond repair, so their descendants would become Romans from so on. And remember many Syrians (Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians in general) were enlisted in the Roman army and fought on several frontiers and even settled after conquests.

"Shamash the Sabaean", I think I like the idea! ;) I'm kidding...

Shamash
09-17-2018, 09:12 AM
Also what if your ancestors belonged to the Sabaeans, who migrated to Levant after the great dam was destroyed. The dam's destruction was far beyond repair, so their descendants would become Romans from so on. And remember many Syrians (Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians and Jordanians in general) were enlisted in the Roman army and fought on several frontiers and even settled after conquests.

Recent archaeological findings suggest that simple earth dams and a canal network were constructed as far back as 2000 BC. The Great Dam of Ma'rib dates back to about the 8th century BC and is considered the oldest known dam in the world, being counted as one of the most wonderful feats of engineering in the ancient world. It is between three mountains, and the flood waters all flow to the one location, and because of that the water only discharges in one direction; and the ancients blocked that place with hard rocks and lead.

Honestly I think that the mass-migration of Sabaeans to the north after the break of the dam of Marib (Sayl al-ʿarim as far as I remember) is Arabic folk lore. From archaeological, linguistic and inscriptional records quite the contrary seems to be true and Arabic speaking people from the north migrated to Yemen. The originally non-Arabic south of the peninsula got more and more arabicized by migrants in the first centuries CE. Eventually it does not account for periods later in history when Yemenis were actively participating in the Islamic conquest and could be found nearly everywhere in the Islamic world.

But this doesn't resolve my lineage's riddle. I personally am inclined to believe that my ancestor was a Middle Eastern soldier moved to the Germanic Limes in order to protect the borders of the Roman Empire and there is no solid proof that he might have been from Yemen. The Yemeni association of FGC3723 is strong though. But again we would need to know the distribution pattern of FGC3723 3200-3000 years ago to make better assumptions.

Lupriac
09-17-2018, 05:16 PM
Honestly I think that the mass-migration of Sabaeans to the north after the break of the dam of Marib (Sayl al-ʿarim as far as I remember) is Arabic folk lore. From archaeological, linguistic and inscriptional records quite the contrary seems to be true and Arabic speaking people from the north migrated to Yemen. The originally non-Arabic south of the peninsula got more and more arabicized by migrants in the first centuries CE. Eventually it does not account for periods later in history when Yemenis were actively participating in the Islamic conquest and could be found nearly everywhere in the Islamic world.

But this doesn't resolve my lineage's riddle. I personally am inclined to believe that my ancestor was a Middle Eastern soldier moved to the Germanic Limes in order to protect the borders of the Roman Empire and there is no solid prove that he might have been from Yemen. The Yemeni association of FGC3723 is strong though. But again we would need to know the distribution pattern of FGC3723 3200-3000 years ago to make better assumptions.

Sabaeans were not exactly Arabs, as they spoke a separate semitic language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaean_language).

As for the note, thanks for reminding me of it! Your haplogroup and subclade specifically (J1-Y6370) is a downstream of J1-FGC11. If I recall correctly FGC11 has been found among a 3,700 years old Phoenician skeleton in a burial jar. It is usually thought that the FGC11 lineage formed among early Arabic people (Adnanites), Mesopotamians and Phoenicians after they migrated from Mesopotamia, and they were Arabized in the late periods of Neolithic Era (quoted).

As for the Yemenis, they are mostly under J1-L93 which is much more ancient than FGC11 and it migrated down to South Arabia around 6,000-9,000 BCE.

So I guess the most likely hypothesis for your origins is probably a Syrian soldier from the area of ancient Phoenicia/Lebanese coast, who entered the Roman army specifically from one of the legions: Legio V Macedonica or Legio III Gallica which were based in here and went to a European frontier, and probably continued from there till they reached and settled for once in Austria.

My regards, and good luck! :)

Agamemnon
09-17-2018, 05:33 PM
Sabaean isn't South Semitic, it most definitely is a Central Semitic language like all the Epigraphic South Arabian languages (Qatabanian, Hadhramitic, Minaean, Razihi, etc). In fact, there's no such thing as "South Semitic".

Sorry for being a pedant, but I feel this is an important detail which needs to be stressed (as there is a correlation to be found here between the Semitic language tree and J1-L862's phylogeny).

Lupriac
09-17-2018, 05:46 PM
Sabaean isn't South Semitic, it most definitely is a Central Semitic language like all the Epigraphic South Arabian languages (Qatabanian, Hadhramitic, Minaean, Razihi, etc). In fact, there's no such thing as "South Semitic".

I must have mixed it up with (old) South Arabian. Although on Wikipedia, there is a branch specified as "South Semitic" and it was itself a subset of "Western semitic languages"? And Thanks for the correction!

Shamash
08-04-2019, 10:53 AM
After many years a new 67 marker match from the Czech Republic has popped up recently at FTDNA. My match carries the German surname Müller. The genetic distance is 7. I only got two 67 marker matches so far. The Roman era migration scenario got a little more weight through this. All my matches (37 & 67 markers) got German surnames and stem from from the Southern part of Germany and Austria.

BenDofair
09-17-2019, 06:41 AM
Hello everyone,

I really enjoyed your discussion. I did the big-y and my result turned out FGC3695, which is a downstream for FGC3723.
I'm from Shahran tribe, which is one of the largest tribes in southern Saudi Arabia. I actually had 0 matches on all markers except for 12. I hope this may help you guys.

Shamash
10-13-2019, 03:54 PM
Hello everyone,

I really enjoyed your discussion. I did the big-y and my result turned out FGC3695, which is a downstream for FGC3723.
I'm from Shahran tribe, which is one of the largest tribes in southern Saudi Arabia. I actually had 0 matches on all markers except for 12. I hope this may help you guys.

Welcome to our little but nevertheless fascinating subclade!

Shamash
10-13-2019, 03:58 PM
After many years a new 67 marker match from the Czech Republic has popped up recently at FTDNA. My match carries the German surname Müller. The genetic distance is 7. I only got two 67 marker matches so far.

He just turned out to belong to the same subclade as myself: FGC3706! :-)

Shamash
12-21-2019, 09:40 AM
Important update for my subclade:

After having tested Y700 my Czech match and I went from FGC3706 to FGC3712. The FTDNA haplotree has been updated. The new node downstream from FGC3706 contains 22 SNPs. Still 16 private variants downstream from the new FGC3712 node on average: 11 in my sample, 21 in Müller's sample (isn't that a huge SNP difference?). We have 12 STR differences on 656 STR. I would like to know your suggestions concerning a possible reasonable TMRCA of the European group! I am aware that two samples offer only a limited plausibility. So under FGC3706 there is one Yemeni sample (Al-Rassi), my one and finally the Czech one. I think this could be meaningful for making a first educated guess on the migration period from the Middle East to Central Europe. I attach the Block tree section with my subclade and the updated FGC3723 Haplotree. I would be grateful for your comments or observations. I've been waiting 8 years for something like this to happen! :)

35544

35545

Ilgar
12-24-2019, 10:55 PM
Congrats for good news ! Have you uploaded your sample to YFull ?

Shamash
12-25-2019, 12:51 AM
Congrats for good news ! Have you uploaded your sample to YFull ?

Thanks, this is exciting news for me! Yes my sample is already part of the Yfull-tree: it's sample YF01457

Here's a screenshot of the actual FGC3723 (Yfull J-Y6370 Tree):

35601

Some other user here (Dave-V) suggested this TMRCA for my subclade (but with caution): 600 AD. Sounds reasonable.

35602

So my ancestor could very well have been a Sabean or Himyarite. But how he made it to Austria is still a riddle to me?

Shamash
01-15-2020, 06:14 AM
FGC3723 TMRCA change in Yfull's latest update:

It has been pushed back from 3800 ybp to 4500ybp

35862

Shamash
03-28-2020, 07:20 PM
FGC3723 TMRCA change in Yfull's latest update:
Everything's back to normal. Most FGC3723 subclades seem to expand in the middle of the second millennium bp. A little later at ca. 1200 ypb the first kingdoms in Southern Arabia begin to appear, we are at the dawn of Southern Arabian civilization. In my opinion this expansion is clearly linked to a big migration from the north:

36993

Shamash
04-30-2020, 06:29 PM
Update:

My closest Middle Eastern y-DNA match Al-Rassi Al-Hassani Al-Qurayshi from northern Yemen (FGC3706+) has got a new y-DNA match from Shibam Kawkaban which is a highly picturesque place that lies 40km northwest of Sana'a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawkaban

In my opinion FGC3706 could turn out to be a potential Sabaean y-DNA marker. But we'll have to wait for other results and better TMRCAs...

The local Almaqah-temple in Shibam Kawkaban was dedicated to Almaqah ba'l ʿAwwām and is thought of as a daughter temple of the Awwam, the Maḥram Bilqis in Marib.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awwam

Shamash
05-12-2020, 07:14 PM
Update:

We have our own FGC3723 Subclade Project now! :)

If you are FGC3723+ please join the new FTDNA J1-FGC3723 Y-DNA Project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/j1-fgc3723/about

:)

Shamash
07-09-2020, 08:11 AM
Update:

My closest Middle Eastern y-DNA match Al-Rassi Al-Hassani Al-Qurayshi from northern Yemen (FGC3706+) has got a new y-DNA match from Shibam Kawkaban which is a highly picturesque place that lies 40km northwest of Sana'a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kawkaban

In my opinion FGC3706 could turn out to be a potential Sabaean y-DNA marker. But we'll have to wait for other results and better TMRCAs...

The local Almaqah-temple in Shibam Kawkaban was dedicated to Almaqah ba'l ʿAwwām and is thought of as a daughter temple of the Awwam, the Maḥram Bilqis in Marib.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awwam

As expected the Zeid sample from Shibam Kawkaban in Northern Yemen has turned out FGC3706+ as myself and Al-Rassi! :)

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1-FGC3723?iframe=yresults

See also the attached screenshot:

38372

MJD108
08-26-2020, 10:14 PM
Hello to everyone. I manage the DNA research for my wife's family. Her brother (David Reininger) just got final result from YSEQ today: SNP J1-FGC3712. Earliest known male ancestor Georges Reininger, born before 1690 in Intzlingen Germany (quite near Basel Switzerland), died in Alsace France, where his family remained until early 1900's emigration to USA. I've joined the FTDNA group for FGC3723 and been in touch via email with its administrator. Very interested to learn more about earlier origins.

Shamash
02-15-2021, 08:41 PM
Hi everybody, a few updates concerning my subclade FGC3706/FGC3712:

Concerning the origin of FGC3706 (the SNP upstream from FGC3712) we now have two samples from Northern Yemen: one from Shibam Kawkaban the other from Al-Mahwit:

43332

Both cities are only 70km away from each other which is striking as far as the possible origin of my subclade is concerned. My working hypothesis now is that we might come from Northern Yemen.

In addition we got a few new FGC3706/FGC3712 members and we managed to get all Big Y-tested FGC3706-samples to upload their raw data to Yfull.

Yfull delivered a first preliminary TMRCA for FGC3712 which should be refined with the next updates:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC3729/

43334

Now comes the interesting thing: the first calculation for FGC3712 (which happens to be the Central European subclade of FGC3723 with exclusively German surnames) gives us a TMRCA of ca. 650 CE.

This FGC3706 node will be broken up with the next updates. You may get an impression when clicking on the LIVE-version of the tree:

43333

The TMRCA of our FGC3712-ancestor (who might or might not have been the one that migrated from the then Himyarite Empire to Europe) is compatible with the fall of the Himyarite Empire in ca. 630 CE.

I mean this all is still very hypothetical but I begin to question myself if the fall of the Himyarite Empire and the migration of my ancestor could have to do with each other?

Might it have been the reason for leaving what is modern Yemen?

I've read that many Himyarite Jews and Christians left the country with the Islamic expansion.

So far I thought that my ancestor could have been a Himyarite/Sabaean soldier in the Roman army a scenario which I won't discard until we have better data.

What are your thoughts on this?

Shamash
05-02-2021, 07:32 AM
Update to the Yfull-tree. Last but not least all samples available in my subclade have been considered in the calculation of the TMRCA for FGC3712 and FGC3706:

44522

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6369/

The new calculated TMRCA for our Central European outlier subclade FGC3712/FGC3703 is 1500ybp while the TMRCA with our closest Yemeni FGC3706 match has been pushed back to ca. 3300ybp.

This means that there is a huge timeframe between the formation time and TMRCA of ca. 1800 years in which our ancestors could have entered Europe on many different occasions... :-/

As a consequence FGC3712/FGC3703 could even be a late Bronze Age/early Iron age arrival to the European genetic landscape but why in god's name do we have then only members with German surnames? If my subclade entered Europe so early I would expect it to be widerly spread in Europe and not only in the German speaking area.

:-(

hartaisarlag
05-02-2021, 04:43 PM
Update to the Yfull-tree. Last but not least all samples available in my subclade have been considered in the calculation of the TMRCA for FGC3712 and FGC3706:

44522

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y6369/

The new calculated TMRCA for our Central European outlier subclade FGC3712/FGC3703 is 1500ybp while the TMRCA with our closest Yemeni FGC3706 match has been pushed back to ca. 3300ybp.

This means that there is a huge timeframe between the formation time and TMRCA of ca. 1800 years in which our ancestors could have entered Europe on many different occasions... :-/

As a consequence FGC3712/FGC3703 could even be a late Bronze Age/early Iron age arrival to the European genetic landscape but why in god's name do we have then only members with German surnames? If my subclade entered Europe so early I would expect it to be widerly spread in Europe and not only in the German speaking area.

:-(

The blanks will be filled in, in time!

Shamash
05-24-2021, 05:03 PM
Some more news concerning the origin of FGC3723:

The majority of Big Y tested basal FGC3723-clades are either from Yemen or Southern Saudi Arabia which makes historical Greater Yemen the most likely origin place and not the Southern Levant as previously suspected by myself.

See also the Y-DNA Results Page of our J1-FGC3723 y-DNA Project:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1-FGC3723?iframe=yresults

leorcooper19
05-25-2021, 02:08 PM
The majority of Big Y tested basal FGC3723-clades are either from Yemen or Southern Saudi Arabia which makes historical Greater Yemen the most likely origin place and not the Southern Levant as previously suspected by myself.

Careful now, the same was said for R1b-M269 in Western Europe before ancients proved it came from the east. J-FGC3723's parent J-FGC11 now has a basal ancient Lebanese from c. 3700 ybp. Considering J-FGC3723 is only three SNPs downstream from J-FGC11, I think it's quite likely that the MRCA still lived far north of Yemen. The fact that basal clades are remaining mainly Yemeni only goes to show how much of a sink the Arabian Peninsula was for these northern lineages.

That said, I could be misunderstanding your point, as you may have been discussing your specific subclade of J-FGC3723, J-FGC3712. Given the closest divergence with a Yemeni is c. 3300 ybp, I think it's still reasonable to assume that your MRCA with that individual lived in the north (probably Southern Levant or inland Jordan/Syria). I would be interested in knowing when exactly these lineages came down into modern Saudi Arabia/Yemen.

Shamash
05-25-2021, 04:29 PM
Careful now, the same was said for R1b-M269 in Western Europe before ancients proved it came from the east. J-FGC3723's parent J-FGC11 now has a basal ancient Lebanese from c. 3700 ybp. Considering J-FGC3723 is only three SNPs downstream from J-FGC11, I think it's quite likely that the MRCA still lived far north of Yemen. The fact that basal clades are remaining mainly Yemeni only goes to show how much of a sink the Arabian Peninsula was for these northern lineages.

That said, I could be misunderstanding your point, as you may have been discussing your specific subclade of J-FGC3723, J-FGC3712. Given the closest divergence with a Yemeni is c. 3300 ybp, I think it's still reasonable to assume that your MRCA with that individual lived in the north (probably Southern Levant or inland Jordan/Syria). I would be interested in knowing when exactly these lineages came down into modern Saudi Arabia/Yemen.

I have always been aware of the FGC11* MBA Lebanese sample from Sidon (I was amongst the first to acknowledge its importance here btw) but there is no FGC3723 left in the Levant now and what is a possible scenario is that one or a few FGC11* lineages migrated from the Southern Levant to Yemen where (or on the way) in consequence FGC3723 developped.

I agree with you that we don't know what the distribution pattern in the Brone Age was but again ALL basal FGC3723 clades have a strong Yemeni connection and NONE a Levantine.

So IMO your scenario is possible but equally good mine until we have ANY aDNA from the Arabian Peninsula.

I am also aware of R1b and its origin in the East but there has always been some R1b in the East (Russia) unlike FGC3723 in the Levant...

leorcooper19
05-25-2021, 06:57 PM
I have always been aware of the FGC11* MBA Lebanese sample from Sidon (I was amongst the first to acknowledge its importance here btw) but there is no FGC3723 left in the Levant now and what is a possible scenario is that one or a few FGC11* lineages migrated from the Southern Levant to Yemen where (or on the way) in consequence FGC3723 developped.

Yes that is indeed possible, but only if the migration in question took place between the TMRCA of J-FGC11 and the TMRCA of J-FGC3723, which is a pretty short window (approximately 250 to 600 years). @Aga or others, can you provide some insight here? When would FGC11 clades have migrated south into the Peninsula en masse? Or rather does it depend on the subclade? If so, what time frames are we looking at for J-FGC3723?


I agree with you that we don't know what the distribution pattern in the Brone Age was but again ALL basal FGC3723 clades have a strong Yemeni connection and NONE a Levantine.

But wouldn't you say that's equally the case for J-FGC3723's brother branches downstream J-FGC11? All are most heavy and diverse in Southern Arabia, but all must have come from the north at some time frame. Even so, there are hints at J-FGC11 mostly diversifying in the north and then only later coming south towards Yemen. Please check out the following branches; I think it's likelier they stayed relatively north and everyone else moved south, rather than everyone moving south with some moving north, given the ultimate origin is in the north. There are lots of smaller hints like these, such as lone Lebanese, Jordanian, and Palestinian individuals scattered throughout the phylogeny but outside of what are clearly young, sub-1700 ybp Arabian expansion clades.
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2121/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y142146/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT56715/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS10412/

True, none are in J-FGC3723, but we are simply not at a high enough level of testing in the Levant to make an argument based on the absence of evidence.


So IMO your scenario is possible but equally good mine until we have ANY aDNA from the Arabian Peninsula.

I am also aware of R1b and its origin in the East but there has always been some R1b in the East (Russia) unlike FGC3723 in the Levant...

Fair enough, we are indeed all just guessing while waiting for relevant aDNA. I just think there's enough evidence against a clear presence in Greater Yemen for the MRCA of J-FGC3723 to confidently state it quite yet.

KLMDG
05-25-2021, 09:16 PM
Yes that is indeed possible, but only if the migration in question took place between the TMRCA of J-FGC11 and the TMRCA of J-FGC3723, which is a pretty short window (approximately 250 to 600 years). @Aga or others, can you provide some insight here? When would FGC11 clades have migrated south into the Peninsula en masse? Or rather does it depend on the subclade? If so, what time frames are we looking at for J-FGC3723?



But wouldn't you say that's equally the case for J-FGC3723's brother branches downstream J-FGC11? All are most heavy and diverse in Southern Arabia, but all must have come from the north at some time frame. Even so, there are hints at J-FGC11 mostly diversifying in the north and then only later coming south towards Yemen. Please check out the following branches; I think it's likelier they stayed relatively north and everyone else moved south, rather than everyone moving south with some moving north, given the ultimate origin is in the north. There are lots of smaller hints like these, such as lone Lebanese, Jordanian, and Palestinian individuals scattered throughout the phylogeny but outside of what are clearly young, sub-1700 ybp Arabian expansion clades.
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2121/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y142146/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT56715/
- https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS10412/

True, none are in J-FGC3723, but we are simply not at a high enough level of testing in the Levant to make an argument based on the absence of evidence.



Fair enough, we are indeed all just guessing while waiting for relevant aDNA. I just think there's enough evidence against a clear presence in Greater Yemen for the MRCA of J-FGC3723 to confidently state it quite yet.

for the Syrian sample under
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y142146/
are from Banu Al-Muhallab of Azd tribe , which is one of the Yemenite tribes that moved northward with the conquest and had high-rank under Umayyad rule here's the announcement of his sample
https://twitter.com/BallaithAl/status/1247619702098026496

as for the other one https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS10412/
the Jordanians from tribe of Judham .. one of the Kahlani Sabaean tribes , also have Oral tradition of southern Arabian origin .. one of their samples announced :
https://twitter.com/T__Dahil/status/1259226063479156739

as for https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2121/ , many believe that they are part of the Proto-Arabs that converted to Judaism early on for that they are one of the 4 branches of FGC8712 , 3 of them are Arabian in the Peninsula
would this be a cause of them being in non-Arab lands ? perhaps
for that there is a "brother" of their ancestor FGC12 that seems to be fully Arabian thus far , which is
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC54321/

that's why in my humble opinion , you can not use the links in your post as indication of Northern origin of FGC3723 or FGC12
for that the Levantine clans have oral origin of Southern Arabia
and their tribes names are known to be of Kahlani Sabaean origin (such as the case for Judham, and the Banu Al-Muhallab of Azd tribe)

leorcooper19
05-26-2021, 12:32 PM
for the Syrian sample under
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y142146/
are from Banu Al-Muhallab of Azd tribe , which is one of the Yemenite tribes that moved northward with the conquest and had high-rank under Umayyad rule here's the announcement of his sample
https://twitter.com/BallaithAl/status/1247619702098026496

as for the other one https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS10412/
the Jordanians from tribe of Judham .. one of the Kahlani Sabaean tribes , also have Oral tradition of southern Arabian origin .. one of their samples announced :
https://twitter.com/T__Dahil/status/1259226063479156739

I appreciate the insight here, thank you! Given these traditions, it now does seem more likely they were in the south at some point.


as for https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS2121/ , many believe that they are part of the Proto-Arabs that converted to Judaism early on for that they are one of the 4 branches of FGC8712 , 3 of them are Arabian in the Peninsula
would this be a cause of them being in non-Arab lands ? perhaps
for that there is a "brother" of their ancestor FGC12 that seems to be fully Arabian thus far , which is
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC54321/

But what does "Proto-Arabs that converted to Judaism early on" really mean? Wouldn't that suggest that the branch was still quite close to the Levant? That's all my point is at the end of the day; even one example of this phenomenon would cast doubt on any claim of deep origins in Yemen/southern Arabia for any particularly old branch of J-FGC11. Besides, what about the Armenian? Was he another, separate proto-Arab line that converted to Judaism, given the divergence between the Ashkenazi Jews and the Armenian is older than Judaism itself? Either way, I think it shows that clades like J-FGC8712 were much more to the north near the Levant than in the Arabian Peninsula.

Lupriac
05-26-2021, 04:25 PM
Levantines aren't nearly as tested as peninsular Arabs. In addition, most of Syrian J1-FGC12's belong to well known tribes. If I'm not mistaken, most of the tested individuals are tested by specific projects, and tribes might get more attention due to their history and diverse structure. That being said, there's definitely some interesting positions on the tree for tested Levantine individuals.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8810*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4415*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8812*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT309072/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT55695/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y5322/

IronHorse
05-27-2021, 05:50 PM
There should be J1 subclades for Ethiopic speaking peoples yes ? they don't test as much as Peninsular Arabs, so maybe the few Ethiopians and Eritreans from this subclade qualify it as such ?

KLMDG
05-28-2021, 08:47 AM
But what does "Proto-Arabs that converted to Judaism early on" really mean? Wouldn't that suggest that the branch was still quite close to the Levant? That's all my point is at the end of the day; even one example of this phenomenon would cast doubt on any claim of deep origins in Yemen/southern Arabia for any particularly old branch of J-FGC11. Besides, what about the Armenian? Was he another, separate proto-Arab line that converted to Judaism, given the divergence between the Ashkenazi Jews and the Armenian is older than Judaism itself? Either way, I think it shows that clades like J-FGC8712 were much more to the north near the Levant than in the Arabian Peninsula.

how i see the "proto-Arabs" including (J-FGC8712) is the same way i see mobile Bedouin Arabian tribes until recent history that they are always on the move depends on the rain season - weather - trade and political climate, so it's almost impossible to point at one spot and call it a day as if they going to stay there for a good period of time , let's take Annizah tribe descendant of Asad bin Rabi'ah (أسد بن ربيعة) for example which is mostly nomadic until the oil era that was roaming from Najd to Northern Arabia all the way to Levant and Iraq (west of Euphrates) feeding their herd and trading

the first mention of Asad bin Rabi'ah their ancient ancestor was in fact in the South of Arabia , in Shabwa - Hadramawt - Yemen today and the proof that i have is

1) his name in this rock inscription in Shabwah the capitol of Hadramawt kingdom > http://dasi.cnr.it/index.php?id=30&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=336787506&recId=1618&mark=01618%2C001%2C001

2) the fact that Annizah tribe belong to this Y-DNA > https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC19901/
that meet up with their cousins (according to Ibn Kalbi, Ibn Hazm , Al-Hamadani) 'Asir bin Arashah bin Unnaz bin Wa'il (عسير بن أراشة بن عنز بن وائل) that are under this Y-DNA > https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y13964/

which makes me very confident that the descendants of Asad bin Rabi'ah are under those lines , the most interesting thing is the up-stream which is this Y-DNA (downstream of FGC1695)
> https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y10723/
have a good number of samples from Shabwah ... which is where the rock inscription was found

Yes his descendants are today in various lands ('Asir - Najd - N.Arabia - Levant) but that doesn't change the fact their ancient ancestor was indeed in the very south of Arabia

my argument is ... this is how mobile pastoralist Arabians and their ancestors were
always on the move, which is the same case of the first "Arabs" the kingdom of Qedar (Gindibu and his men) as well as the ancestors of J-ZS2121 which has Jews .. perhaps they are descendants of early proto-Arabs that as their are moving for better lands met with a certain Jewish group and converted and embraced the new culture / identity , as time moved on they moved elsewhere from Turkey to Eastern Europe and whatnot for various reasons
:: remember that ZS2121 is the only line out of 4 under FGC8712 that is outside the Arabian Peninsula / Non-Arabian ::

hope you understand why i still hold my opinion that all the samples you mentioned can not make me see FGC3723 or FGC1695 being from the North .. but in fact from Southern Arabia
of course at the end we (FGC11) are from an early migration (2200-1800 BCE ?) from land of Canaan to deeper in-land Arabia

but FGC11 descendants / tribes being in the Arabian peninsula longer than some may believe , which shows in our oral tradition that our clans came from Yemen (2000-3000 years ago as our tribes are forming) which includes the Levantine samples you sent
almost all do indeed have Oral tradition of Yemenite tribe migrating north-ward

KLMDG
05-28-2021, 09:01 AM
Levantines aren't nearly as tested as peninsular Arabs. In addition, most of Syrian J1-FGC12's belong to well known tribes. If I'm not mistaken, most of the tested individuals are tested by specific projects, and tribes might get more attention due to their history and diverse structure. That being said, there's definitely some interesting positions on the tree for tested Levantine individuals.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8810*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4415*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC8812*/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT309072/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT55695/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y5322/

same argument can be used for Yemen
very under-tested
but as we test, we find them up-stream / basal for Arabian Y-DNA lines
i think we can agree that this going to take a bit more time until the image is clear .. as well as hopefully Ancient samples from Iraq and Arabian Peninsula

Shamash
06-04-2021, 02:33 PM
New Big Y result for a kit associated with my specific subclade from Hajjah in Northern Yemen. It belongs to the Hashid branch of the Hamdan tribal federation.

It is together with a kit from the Asir-Region in KSA (former Greater Yemen) under FGC3733*:

See also it's preliminary position on the Yfull-tree:

45006

Nahdi
06-14-2021, 01:09 PM
It is so clear that fgc3723 is Israel and fgc11 is Ibrahim. The son if Israel originally ware in Yamin