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wandering_amorite
05-12-2017, 08:32 PM
Hi all,

Writing on behalf of my good friend, who just got his 23andMe results back. N is of Indian parentage (both from Bombay). His mother is Bhatia and his father is part Bhatia, part-other, and according to family lore, part-Afghan.

N scores 95% South Asian, 2.8% Middle Eastern, and 1.4% European (half of which is assigned NW European); most interesting to us is the fact that he has several hundred matches of British and other NW European ancestry.

The various GEDmatch calculators seem to place Pashtun, Burusho, Kashmiri, Kalash, Punjabi Brahmins, and Punjabi Jats as his top population matches. One Oracle estimates that he's 62.5% Gujarati and 37.5% Pashtun. Another generates 96.5% Punjabi Khatri and 3.5% British.

I know it'd be pretty hard to sort out the different proportions of ancestry from different South Asian groups—but a northward pull, perhaps confirming the lore about Afghan ancestry, seems likely. As for British/NW European ancestry, though—how common is that? Looks like the signal is real.

Looking to hear from people familiar with North Indian/Pakistani 23andMe and GEDmatch results.

Cheers,
wandering_amorite

JerryS.
05-12-2017, 08:42 PM
in the last 300 years the British were all over the world.... its not uncommon for people even in remote areas to have some "Bob's your uncle" in them.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 11:38 PM
in the last 300 years the British were all over the world.... its not uncommon for people even in remote areas to have some "Bob's your uncle" in them.

Lmao what an ignorant statement. British were never allowed to mix with majority of South Asians due to religious and cultural restrictions. It is very common for Indians, especially North Indians/Pakistanis to show European in their results. It is because of Shared ancestry with present day West asians and europeans. Let me simplify for you:

A has two sons, B and C. A lives in Eurasia, He sends B to Europe and C to South Asia. They both have lots of kids in their new homelands. Later on in future one of the descendants of C decides to take ancestry test and finds a match with B's descendant. He gets confused and ask on a forum for help. And then someone pops up telling him about Bob is your uncle. But in reality both share common ancestor. Uncle Bob never liked curry.

So no, your friend does not have british ancestry. Bhatias are found among all over North west South Asia. Your friend's ancestry is full South Asian.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 11:39 PM
Hi all,

Writing on behalf of my good friend, who just got his 23andMe results back. N is of Indian parentage (both from Bombay). His mother is Bhatia and his father is part Bhatia, part-other, and according to family lore, part-Afghan.

N scores 95% South Asian, 2.8% Middle Eastern, and 1.4% European (half of which is assigned NW European); most interesting to us is the fact that he has several hundred matches of British and other NW European ancestry.

The various GEDmatch calculators seem to place Pashtun, Burusho, Kashmiri, Kalash, Punjabi Brahmins, and Punjabi Jats as his top population matches. One Oracle estimates that he's 62.5% Gujarati and 37.5% Pashtun. Another generates 96.5% Punjabi Khatri and 3.5% British.

I know it'd be pretty hard to sort out the different proportions of ancestry from different South Asian groups—but a northward pull, perhaps confirming the lore about Afghan ancestry, seems likely. As for British/NW European ancestry, though—how common is that? Looks like the signal is real.

Looking to hear from people familiar with North Indian/Pakistani 23andMe and GEDmatch results.

Cheers,
wandering_amorite

Ask your friend to run their data on gedmatch. I score high East European, and no Ivan is not my uncle.

Magnetic
06-04-2017, 11:48 PM
1.4 % uncle bob . we wuz uncle bob n shiet

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 02:42 AM
Lmao what an ignorant statement. British were never allowed to mix with majority of South Asians due to religious and cultural restrictions. It is very common for Indians, especially North Indians/Pakistanis to show European in their results. It is because of Shared ancestry with present day West asians and europeans. Let me simplify for you:

A has two sons, B and C. A lives in Eurasia, He sends B to Europe and C to South Asia. They both have lots of kids in their new homelands. Later on in future one of the descendants of C decides to take ancestry test and finds a match with B's descendant. He gets confused and ask on a forum for help. And then someone pops up telling him about Bob is your uncle. But in reality both share common ancestor. Uncle Bob never liked curry.

So no, your friend does not have british ancestry. Bhatias are found among all over North west South Asia. Your friend's ancestry is full South Asian.

now who's being ignorant?

Kulin
06-05-2017, 02:47 AM
now who's being ignorant?

The one's who did marry British men, mostly soldiers/civil servants were mostly local women who converted to Christianity. Most of the population on the other hand were Hindu/Muslim, which restricted marital relations in a big way. You have like 2 million Anglo-Indians in the modern day now out of like 1.7 billion total South Asian population.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 02:56 AM
The one's who did marry British men, mostly soldiers/civil servants were mostly local women who converted to Christianity. Most of the population on the other hand were Hindu/Muslim, which restricted marital relations in a big way. You have like 2 million Anglo-Indians in the modern day now out of like 1.7 billion total South Asian population.

aside from marriage and converts, you also had prostitution. I know some don't like to admit that but no matter how holier than thou some try to paint any group, whores were around in every group of people. the prostitution was only good for uneasy occupations. in case of invasion there was unrestrained rape.

was any of this enough to forever alter DNA? I don't know. was it enough to ensure some have DNA from them? that's obvious now.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 03:32 AM
now who's being ignorant?

Again, they only had babies with their servants or prostitutes which is known as anglo Indian community, majority of it left when british left. We're so Racist that we don't marry outside our caste or ethnicity. It is a known fact. There is a reason our community preserved its roots unlike Hispanics who took spanish identity.

Rajasthan and haryana jats score 18% european, Uncle bob didn't had affair with millions of girls.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 03:34 AM
aside from marriage and converts, you also had prostitution. I know some don't like to admit that but no matter how holier than thou some try to paint any group, whores were around in every group of people. the prostitution was only good for uneasy occupations. in case of invasion there was unrestrained rape.

was any of this enough to forever alter DNA? I don't know. was it enough to ensure some have DNA from them? that's obvious now.

If you did some research on anglo Indian community, you wouldn't have made such ignorant statement. I'm not here to attack you, simply educating you on something you don't know.

Kulin
06-05-2017, 03:35 AM
@MDL, lol don't get too worked up :D

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 04:20 AM
@MDL, lol don't get too worked up :D

Bruh this is kind of annoying when people can't accept we have euro from thousands of years. We're the other end of Indo european community.

The only thing separates us with them is our ASI. Rest is same.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 04:35 AM
If you did some research on anglo Indian community, you wouldn't have made such ignorant statement. I'm not here to attack you, simply educating you on something you don't know.

I appreciate the knowledge.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 04:36 AM
Bruh this is kind of annoying when people can't accept we have euro from thousands of years. We're the other end of Indo european community.

The only thing separates us with them is our ASI. Rest is same.

what is ASI?

Kulin
06-05-2017, 04:41 AM
what is ASI?

ASI/ASE = Ancestral South Indian/Ancestral South Eurasian....the indigenous hunter-gatherer component native to Southern Asia.

MitchellSince1893
06-05-2017, 04:42 AM
I have two Indian women ancestors (5th and 6th great grandmothers) that had children with British men in India (one civil servant and one soldier). Their names are unknown to me, but their dna shows up in a couple of segments for my father. On their children's British Indian birth certificates the fathers are listed but the mothers' names are left blank. My 50% Indian 5th great grandmother was an Anne Green (b. 1775 in Calcutta), and my 50% Indian 4th great grandmother, Margaret Walker (b. 1820 in Calcutta?). Their granddaughter/daughter was Margaret H Wilson who would have been 37.5% Indian (b. 1847 in Calcutta)

I hope one day I can know the identity of these women, or at least have a dna match to a shared descendant.


From what I read, in pre-Victorian times (1700s and early 1800s) it was more socially acceptable for these relationships from a British perspective.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 04:45 AM
I have two Indian women ancestors (5th and 6th great grandmothers) that had children with British men in India (one civil servant and one soldier). Their names are unknown to me, but their dna shows up in a couple of segments for my father. On their children's British Indian birth certificates the fathers are listed but the mothers' names are left blank. My 50% Indian 5th great grandmother was an Anne Green (b. 1775 in Calcutta), and my 50% Indian 4th great grandmother, Margaret Walker (b. 1820 in Calcutta?). Their granddaughter/daughter was Margaret H Wilson who would have been 37.5% Indian (b. 1847 in Calcutta)

I hope one day I can know the identity of these women, or at least have a dna match to a shared descendant.


From what I read, in pre-Victorian times (1700s and early 1800s) it was more socially acceptable for these relationships from a British perspective.

The Anglo Indian community was mostly from Calcutta (Russel peters is an example), Bombay and parts of Southern India. Reason why Christianity is more known in these area.

:)

MitchellSince1893
06-05-2017, 04:47 AM
The Anglo Indian community was mostly from Calcutta (Russel peters is an example), Bombay and parts of Southern India. Reason why Christianity is more known in these area.

:)

Do you know if these women were typically of a particular Indian ethnic group?. My dad sometimes gets a Persian looking result from some gedmatch tools on these segments.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 04:48 AM
what is ASI?

Kulin explained really well, the closest present day sister population to ASI is Onge people of Andaman Islands. ASI is closely related to East Eurasians. That is why you see ASI sometimes popping up in south east asian results.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 04:48 AM
ASI/ASE = Ancestral South Indian/Ancestral South Eurasian....the indigenous hunter-gatherer component native to Southern Asia.

I have a consistent 1% south Asian result on all of my DNA calculators on GEDmatch. I don't know if its from the Ottomans/Turks and brought to Italy, or if its from the English.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 04:50 AM
Do you if these women were typically of a particular Indian ethnic group?. My dad sometimes gets a Persian looking result from some gedmatch tools on these segments.

That I don't know. They were servants to the officers. They can be from any family. An educated and forward thinking family of that time probably allowed the marriage. The wealthy saw marriage as beneficial for their ties with British. There is no way to know except historical records of your ancestor.

Kulin
06-05-2017, 04:52 AM
I have a consistent 1% south Asian result on all of my DNA calculators on GEDmatch. I don't know if its from the Ottomans/Turks and brought to Italy, or if its from the English.

I've seen numerous European samples with 1% or around that level. I think it's pretty normal and not something exotic at all. Also the "South Asian" in most calculators includes the ASE + Caucasus like ancient component, so not really ASE alone.


Do you know if these women were typically of a particular Indian ethnic group?. My dad sometimes gets a Persian looking result from some gedmatch tools on these segments.



A big portion of Anglo-Indians are actually Anglo-Bengalis. Two of the most prominent ones I could think of now, are the O'Brien brothers. Both of them are politicians (interestingly in opposing parties).

Derek O'Brien

http://images.indianexpress.com/2016/04/derek-obrien-759.jpg


Barry O'Brien

https://www.cesc.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/power-quiz-6.jpg

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 04:52 AM
I have a consistent 1% south Asian result on all of my DNA calculators on GEDmatch. I don't know if its from the Ottomans/Turks and brought to Italy, or if its from the English.

It can be excessive ANE leaking into south Indian component, or Native american link as well. People with Native american ancestry sometimes show SI in their results, vice versa south asians sometimes see native american in their results.

It can be false positive as well, as anything less than 3% is sometimes noise.

SI component is not purely ASI, it is a mix of ASI and Caucasian. There is no data for ASI population hence present day Indian tribals are used as a proxy to make SI component in calculators.

MitchellSince1893
06-05-2017, 04:58 AM
An interesting article on British-Indian marriages during this period
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/09/britishidentity.india

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 05:01 AM
An interesting article on British-Indian marriages during this period
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/09/britishidentity.india

I remember reading it before, they mentioned Calcutta, Bombay, Madras (chennai) as main hubs for Anglo Indians. Which historically makes sense as they were major ports, merchants and businessmen lived on ports.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 05:02 AM
no native American at all. ive updated my post with additional charts.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 05:06 AM
I have a consistent 1% south Asian result on all of my DNA calculators on GEDmatch. I don't know if its from the Ottomans/Turks and brought to Italy, or if its from the English.

Could be of any side, some turks do score 2-5% South Asian, on other hand long forgotten anglo Indian ancestry can be a possibility too. Can you check your results on ANEk7?

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 05:15 AM
Could be of any side, some turks do score 2-5% South Asian, on other hand long forgotten anglo Indian ancestry can be a possibility too. Can you check your results on ANEk7?

I don't see that calculator on GEDmatch. *** found it, hang on. Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions

ANE 15.11
ASE 2.55

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 05:44 AM
I don't see that calculator on GEDmatch. *** found it, hang on. Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions

ANE 15.11
ASE 2.55

ASE 2.11, yea there's definitely some south Asian. You should do some ancestor hunting.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 06:13 AM
ASE 2.11, yea there's definitely some south Asian. You should do some ancestor hunting.

2.55, but yeah, there's a definite drop of it, cousin. LOL

I did. it stops at 1886 in a few villages in the Crotone comune in Calabria [came to America in 1907]. the English and German lineage goes back to Kent [1757 came to America] and Bremen [1855 came to America] with no inkling of anything other than those two regions (the only none English and German are one Scotsman on the English side, and two German speaking Swiss, and one Czech woman on the German side). the Italian side is from the Crotone area of Calabria which was subject to many visitors.

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 06:22 AM
what is the difference between Indian and Bengali? is just a region of India, yes?

ffoucart
06-05-2017, 08:24 AM
Just in case, for fun (but not only):

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/06/prince-william-may-have-little-to-no-indian-ancestry/#.WTUUudSLSt8

For French and South Asians, look at Francoise CHANDERNAGOR:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7oise_Chandernagor

but also to (for the other way):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbons_of_India

Magnetic
06-05-2017, 11:27 AM
there are more differences than only ASI that seperates south asians from europeans and also west asians . mediterranean components for once . south asians score very little

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 11:54 AM
there are more differences than only ASI that seperates south asians from europeans and also west asians . mediterranean components for once . south asians score very little

Mediterranean component is a modern component just like SW asian on some calculators, basically alleles specific to certain modern day populations. The ancients like CHG, ENF, ANE, WHG is present in West Asians, Europeans and South Asians in variety of degrees depending on the region.


If you can name an ancient component other than ASE/ASI, please go ahead.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 12:01 PM
what is the difference between Indian and Bengali? is just a region of India, yes?

India is a country, created by combining different kingdoms of South Asia, its not a race or ethnicity. Bengali is an ethnicity. People from Bengal region are called bengalis. They have their own language, culture, food, customs, history and beliefs.

Bengal region is divided in West Bengal and Bangladesh now. A person from Kolkata (Culcutta) will be ethnically Bengali but his country of citizenship would be India. Similarly a persom from Dhaka would be ethnically Bengali but his country of citizenship would be Bangladesh.

Just like how Russia is, it has different ethnicities like Slavs, Siberians, kazakhs, tatars but theorncountry of citizenship is Russia.

Magnetic
06-05-2017, 12:04 PM
Mediterranean component is a modern component just like SW asian on some calculators, basically alleles specific to certain modern day populations. The ancients like CHG, ENF, ANE, WHG is present in West Asians, Europeans and South Asians in variety of degrees depending on the region.


If you can name an ancient component other than ASE/ASI, please go ahead.

if you want to take ancients as reference then ...

ENF and WHG is low in south asians from what I have seen .

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.15
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 19.04
3 SE_Asian 12.7
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.16
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.7
6 Siberian_E_Asian 3.58
7 WHG 2.65
8 SW_Asian 1.11
9 W_African 0.89


---


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ASI 52.53
2 CHG 26.44
3 E_Asian 9.01
4 ENF 5.3
5 WHG 2.59
6 Beringian 1.29
7 Sub-Saharan 1.13
8 Oceanian 0.95
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Siberian 0.13

JerryS.
06-05-2017, 12:16 PM
India is a country, created by combining different kingdoms of South Asia, its not a race or ethnicity. Bengali is an ethnicity. People from Bengal region are called bengalis. They have their own language, culture, food, customs, history and beliefs.

Bengal region is divided in West Bengal and Bangladesh now. A person from Kolkata (Culcutta) will be ethnically Bengali but his country of citizenship would be India. Similarly a persom from Dhaka would be ethnically Bengali but his country of citizenship would be Bangladesh.

Just like how Russia is, it has different ethnicities like Slavs, Siberians, kazakhs, tatars but theorncountry of citizenship is Russia.

could you tell by DNA if somebody was Indian or Bengali? what I mean is there a ethnical difference like there is between Norwegian and Italian, or is more of a cultural difference?

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 12:16 PM
if you want to take ancients as reference then ...

ENF and WHG is low in south asians from what I have seen .

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.15
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 19.04
3 SE_Asian 12.7
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.16
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.7
6 Siberian_E_Asian 3.58
7 WHG 2.65
8 SW_Asian 1.11
9 W_African 0.89


---


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ASI 52.53
2 CHG 26.44
3 E_Asian 9.01
4 ENF 5.3
5 WHG 2.59
6 Beringian 1.29
7 Sub-Saharan 1.13
8 Oceanian 0.95
9 Amerindian 0.62
10 Siberian 0.13


That is because it uses Caucasian Hunter gatherer population. Which is again high in South Asians depending on region. Check out this spreadsheet for ANE K7 and K8 by eurogenes. I personally have 40% ENF on them, with some south asians having as much as 46%.

Also you missed my point again, I said in previous post that the mixture varies on region, base components are still same except one.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 12:22 PM
could you tell by DNA if somebody was Indian or Bengali? what I mean is there a ethnical difference like there is between Norwegian and Italian?

Yes the ethnical differences in South Asia is sometimes more stronger than european countries, for e.g. I'm a Punjabi, that's my ethnicity. My country of citizenship is India, so that makes me Indian. A person from East Indian state like Manipur has nothing in common with me except country of citizenship. He speak way different language (difference as strong as English and Russian), have completely different culture and food and relogion. Looks East Asian but still is Indian nonetheless.

And no, thr bengalis tend to score very high SE asian and NE asian, sometimes higher SI than other Indians because of their location. That's the only difference in results.

Here you can check results of South Asians and some west asians on different calculators.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/htmlview#

Magnetic
06-05-2017, 12:24 PM
That is because it uses Caucasian Hunter gatherer population. Which is again high in South Asians depending on region.

I didnt say otherwise . CHG was not the point and yes it is high in south asians . CHG (actually Iran_Neo more so . less the Caucasus variant which europeans and west asians score more of) and ASI are the main components south asians score . I said mediterranean or if you want to use ancient component then take neolithic anatolian farmers or ENF . that along with WHG are very low


Check out this spreadsheet for ANE K7 and K8 by eurogenes. I personally have 40% ENF on them, with some south asians having as much as 46%.

ANE K7 is outdated and the ENF there is actually rather CHG stuff or mixed with it . I analyzed it and used several kit numbers I have . as you can see the other calculators show what I am saying . I am not saying this to make you miss uncle bob btw. :) if you want to feel like uncle bob + asi then go ahead it is your decision . I am just pointing out things for the sake of truth.



Also you missed my point again, I said in previous post that the mixture varies on region, base components are still same except one.

I didnt miss any point . especially not "again" :D I just said that your claim ASI is the only thing that divides south asians from europeans or west asians is not true

bryan
06-05-2017, 12:25 PM
Indians are a treeway mix of West Asian/European (Iran Neolithic/WHG/EHG) ASI (Ancestral South Indian/Onge) and SE Asian (Cambodian, Malay)

bones
06-05-2017, 01:50 PM
its worth noting though that Onge is extremely distant from ASI despite being technically the closest surviving population today. The difference is almost as big as between modern east and west eurasians.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-05-2017, 02:30 PM
Indians are a treeway mix of West Asian/European (Iran Neolithic/WHG/EHG) ASI (Ancestral South Indian/Onge) and SE Asian (Cambodian, Malay)

SE asian is east eurasian and shows up in tribals/east Indian population (Bengali), or in 1-2% in other populations. Still related to ASI.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-05-2017, 06:29 PM
All my recent ancestry as far as I know is European British and I consistently get percentages from the NW Pakistan region Baloch/Kalash etc. I think it's "ancient" (probably) so something maybe that could be shared with Europeans from a long time ago, possibly Steppe - related? John

Pylsteen
06-05-2017, 07:14 PM
Very interesting. I have a line of Dutch who worked for the Dutch East India Company. He married, I think near Nagapattinam with a Christian woman, who had a Portuguese name, though I think there is a large chance that she has Asian blood. In the Napoleontic time, their granddaughter married a British seaman in Madras. After their son married again a Christian "native" woman, they migrated to the Dutch colony (current Indonesia). It's all very mixed, but I notice that the native women are generally all Christian. I also thought about from which tribes they would originate, but I think that's a foolish question because it seems logical that the Europeans met them within the cities; if these women were born in the cities (like Madras), their ancestors would probably be people from many places across the country, that had immigrated at some point to the city.

(!)--SSA--(!)
06-05-2017, 08:42 PM
The one's who did marry British men, mostly soldiers/civil servants were mostly local women who converted to Christianity. Most of the population on the other hand were Hindu/Muslim, which restricted marital relations in a big way. You have like 2 million Anglo-Indians in the modern day now out of like 1.7 billion total South Asian population.

I doubt you have 2 million Anglo-Indians in the world. See my other post.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10767-Pakistani-My-Heritage-DNA-Results!&p=242816&viewfull=1#post242816

Most of the Anglo-Indians outside India are now mixed or mixing more and more with the people where they live, and in India they are mixing further with Indians. So they loose their Anglo-Indian identity whether in India or outside India, and their numbers are reducing not increasing since 1950s.

(!)--SSA--(!)
06-05-2017, 08:50 PM
I have two Indian women ancestors (5th and 6th great grandmothers) that had children with British men in India (one civil servant and one soldier). Their names are unknown to me, but their dna shows up in a couple of segments for my father. On their children's British Indian birth certificates the fathers are listed but the mothers' names are left blank. My 50% Indian 5th great grandmother was an Anne Green (b. 1775 in Calcutta), and my 50% Indian 4th great grandmother, Margaret Walker (b. 1820 in Calcutta?). Their granddaughter/daughter was Margaret H Wilson who would have been 37.5% Indian (b. 1847 in Calcutta)

I hope one day I can know the identity of these women, or at least have a dna match to a shared descendant.


From what I read, in pre-Victorian times (1700s and early 1800s) it was more socially acceptable for these relationships from a British perspective.

You might be able to trace your women ancestors further starting in Calcutta and also British Library records in London.

Read this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/alistair-mcgowan.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/d3ac8fa2478878c599886027b731521fc17ca88e.jpg
Alistair McGowan has always wondered about his dark colouring, which often leads him to be mistaken for French or Italian. He wonders if he has any Indian blood, an idea which his father, George, always vehemently denied, explaining away the colouring by claiming Portuguese blood long ago. But George was born and grew up in India, and on his birth certificate is listed as 'Anglo-Indian'. Thus the scene is set for a true voyage into the unknown.

Alistair heads to India, the only place where he feels he will be able to uncover the truth. With his uncle, Rusty, he explores his father's childhood home in Calcutta. He also discovers from a local historian that the term 'Anglo-Indian' means that one of the women in the family was Indian at some time in the family's history. Travelling around India to search for baptism, marriage and military records, to meet family historians and other McGowans, and to visit towns in which his family lived and cemeteries in which they were buried, Alistair traces his family back through the generations, contrasting their English-sounding names to their increasingly Indian appearance in photographs. And when he reaches Ralph McGowan he notices something strange. Ralph was born in 1836 to a Suetonius McGowan - but the mother's name is missing from the baptism entry. Suetonius is simply listed as a magistrate. This is different to the baptism entries that Alistair has found for his other ancestors.

But help is at hand. With the assistance of a local historian, Alistair finds a reference to Suetonius McGowan in a religious pamphlet. He learns that Suetonius married a noble Muslim lady, whose name was omitted from the baptism record because she refused to convert to Christianity. And thus the mystery is solved: here is the Indian link that Alistair had felt sure he would find. He does have Indian blood after all.

But Alistair is also keen to go further back and investigate his Scottish sounding name, McGowan. When did the McGowans come to India, and why did they come all the way from Scotland? It is a book of Christian tombs and monuments that holds the key to this mystery. Through it, Alistair learns that Suetonius's father was also called Suetonius, and was born in Bengal in 1775. Alistair now knows of six generations of McGowans born in India. He discovers that Suetonius's parents were John McGowen and Mary de Cruz - so there may have been a Portuguese link after all. But there is no sign that John was born in India, so the trail there has come to an end.

Back in England, Alistair takes his query about John to a military historian at the British Library. He learns from the records that John McGowan went to India as a private soldier, and worked his way up to the rank of major. But the muster books for Fort St George have another surprise in store. There is a column stating the country of origin of the soldiers - and John McGowan came from Ireland.

Bang go Alistair's visions of his Scottish roots - but it has been a magnificent journey all the same, and has laid some long-standing question to rest.

sweuro
06-05-2017, 08:51 PM
South Asians have steppe admixture.

MitchellSince1893
06-06-2017, 12:50 AM
...He learns that Suetonius married a noble Muslim lady, whose name was omitted from the baptism record because she refused to convert to Christianity. And thus the mystery is solved: here is the Indian link that Alistair had felt sure he would find. He does have Indian blood after all.

That is interesting. It may explain why the mothers weren't listed on my own ancestor's records.

Jessie
06-06-2017, 02:08 AM
You might be able to trace your women ancestors further starting in Calcutta and also British Library records in London.

Read this. http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/alistair-mcgowan.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/d3ac8fa2478878c599886027b731521fc17ca88e.jpg
Alistair McGowan has always wondered about his dark colouring, which often leads him to be mistaken for French or Italian. He wonders if he has any Indian blood, an idea which his father, George, always vehemently denied, explaining away the colouring by claiming Portuguese blood long ago. But George was born and grew up in India, and on his birth certificate is listed as 'Anglo-Indian'. Thus the scene is set for a true voyage into the unknown.

Alistair heads to India, the only place where he feels he will be able to uncover the truth. With his uncle, Rusty, he explores his father's childhood home in Calcutta. He also discovers from a local historian that the term 'Anglo-Indian' means that one of the women in the family was Indian at some time in the family's history. Travelling around India to search for baptism, marriage and military records, to meet family historians and other McGowans, and to visit towns in which his family lived and cemeteries in which they were buried, Alistair traces his family back through the generations, contrasting their English-sounding names to their increasingly Indian appearance in photographs. And when he reaches Ralph McGowan he notices something strange. Ralph was born in 1836 to a Suetonius McGowan - but the mother's name is missing from the baptism entry. Suetonius is simply listed as a magistrate. This is different to the baptism entries that Alistair has found for his other ancestors.

But help is at hand. With the assistance of a local historian, Alistair finds a reference to Suetonius McGowan in a religious pamphlet. He learns that Suetonius married a noble Muslim lady, whose name was omitted from the baptism record because she refused to convert to Christianity. And thus the mystery is solved: here is the Indian link that Alistair had felt sure he would find. He does have Indian blood after all.

But Alistair is also keen to go further back and investigate his Scottish sounding name, McGowan. When did the McGowans come to India, and why did they come all the way from Scotland? It is a book of Christian tombs and monuments that holds the key to this mystery. Through it, Alistair learns that Suetonius's father was also called Suetonius, and was born in Bengal in 1775. Alistair now knows of six generations of McGowans born in India. He discovers that Suetonius's parents were John McGowen and Mary de Cruz - so there may have been a Portuguese link after all. But there is no sign that John was born in India, so the trail there has come to an end.

Back in England, Alistair takes his query about John to a military historian at the British Library. He learns from the records that John McGowan went to India as a private soldier, and worked his way up to the rank of major. But the muster books for Fort St George have another surprise in store. There is a column stating the country of origin of the soldiers - and John McGowan came from Ireland.

Bang go Alistair's visions of his Scottish roots - but it has been a magnificent journey all the same, and has laid some long-standing question to rest.

Not sure why it would be strange that McGowan came from Ireland. It is an Irish name after all. :) I know it is in Scotland as well but there is a lot of crossover in the names and a lot of immigration to Scotland from Ireland. A very interesting story though. Billy Connolly also traced some ancestry to India.

pegasus
06-06-2017, 02:29 AM
I think if the French or Spanish were the Colonialists in the subcontinent, there would have been FAR more mixing.
The "North Euro" component in S/SC Asians is not really from Northern Europe its from Pontic Steppe in Southern Ukraine of Yamnaya people. Who themselves were largely a mix between a West Asian population (CHG) closely related to Neolithic Iranians and the other half from EHGs who mainly derive their genome from North Asiatic Siberians like MA1 and AG3
Northern European like Baltic countries and even Scots have a lot of that Yamnaya like ancestry and in modern calculators its assigned as North Euro, British, etc.

Kulin
06-06-2017, 02:58 AM
I think if the French or Spanish were the Colonialists in the subcontinent, there would have been FAR more mixing.
The "North Euro" component in S/SC Asians is not really from Northern Europe its from Pontic Steppe in Southern Ukraine of Yamnaya people. Who themselves were largely a mix between a West Asian population (CHG) closely related to Neolithic Iranians and the other half from EHGs who mainly derive their genome from North Asiatic Siberians like MA1 and AG3
Northern European like Baltic countries and even Scots have a lot of that Yamnaya like ancestry and in modern calculators its assigned as North Euro, British, etc.

My ancestral town (Chittagong), a former Portuguese colony has quite a few enclaves of Christians, who have clearly some visible Portuguese ancestry, though of course not all of them. I think the same would probably apply for other Portuguese held territories like Goa & Daman & Diu.

MitchellSince1893
06-06-2017, 05:00 AM
Just found this book online: A Distant Sovereignty: National Imperialism and the Origins of British India

Excerpt from pp 129-130, says most of these women are either Luso-Indians (mixed Indian and Portuguese ancestry) or Muslim women of aristocratic backgrounds rather than Hindu women.
16697

SpinosaurusN3H1
06-10-2017, 08:06 PM
MonkeyDLuffy

1)All major Indian castes and religious groups across regions, whether Dravidian speakers or Indo-Aryan are quite homogenous when mtDNA and Y-DNA are concerned except Tibeto-Burmese groups. On the contrary what I've observed that European Y-Dna seems quite heterogenous when major groups like e.g. Albanian, Finnish and Irish are taken together.

2)Manipur is not an East Indian State, but North East Indian state. East Indian states are Indo-Aryan dominated regions like Bihar, Jharkhand, West Bengal and Orissa. The people there are culturally and genetically South Asian. North East India is dominated by Tibeto-Burmese speaking tribals/groups who are ethnically, genetically and physically much different than basic South Asians except for non-Tribal Assamese who are more like Indians.

3)Manipuris wouldn't be ideal for comparison here as far as religion, culture, food habits and genetics are concerned since they are Vaishnavite Hindus, have a caste system, heavy influence of Indian gods, have Indianised names, and even have a significant percentage of R1a probably because of migration of Brahmins from other parts of India. It would be better to compare to say tribes of Nagaland or Arunachal Pradesh and linguistically the difference would be more "English vs European Turkic" than "English vs Russian".

4)In HarappaWorld, I've seen Gujaratis and Southern Indian caste groups have higher SI than Bengalis. Bengalis, including Brahmins showed similar levels of SI to other Gangetic Plains people like that from UP and Bihar.

5)I've seen the doc and found only two Bengali samples over and over in different tests. How can these be used to generalize high East Eurasian among Bengalis. People from Uttaranchal and Nepal in Harappa has much higher East Eurasian admixture. Bengali is both an ethnic as well as a Geographical identifier. A lot non-Bengali tribals and social groups from West Bengal call themselves Bengali when out of their homestate. Moreover there is a sharp contrast between Bangladeshis and West Bengalis when Eastern mtDNA is concerned which showed 10% among Bangladeshi but only 1% among West Bengalis. For that matter many Northern Indian and Southern Indian groups have shown much higher East Eurasian mtDNA than West Bengalis. Bengali Brahmins in Harappa have East Eurasian component percentages similar to people from Bihar, UP, Kashmir people.

Bluey
09-03-2017, 11:07 PM
Bruh this is kind of annoying when people can't accept we have euro from thousands of years. We're the other end of Indo european community.

The only thing separates us with them is our ASI. Rest is same.

Your looks, culture, religion and genetics make you all very distinct from European populations. Not to be blunt or anything, but I don't believe any European believes there's kinship between the two groups.


The Anglo Indian community was mostly from Calcutta (Russel peters is an example), Bombay and parts of Southern India. Reason why Christianity is more known in these area.

:)

Apostle Thomas is the reason why there is an ancient community of Syriac Christians in the southern part of the Sub continent.

jortita
09-04-2017, 03:51 AM
Your looks, culture, religion and genetics make you all very distinct from European populations. Not to be blunt or anything, but I don't believe any European believes there's kinship between the two groups.



Apostle Thomas is the reason why there is an ancient community of Syriac Christians in the southern part of the Sub continent.

Fortunately, Bluey, there are many Europeans and people of European origin on Anthrogenica with more scientific understanding that do not necessarilly agree with you feel a sense of kinship with South Asians. In my case, most Europeans when they meet me here in Bangkok where I live, think I am Thai and hence definitely distinctive but to me the looks of North Indians and Europeans are very similar which cannot be disputed

Roaring
09-04-2017, 12:09 PM
ASE 2.11, yea there's definitely some south Asian. You should do some ancestor hunting.

He doesn't necessarily has Indian ancestry, it's normal level for euros.

wgjkkwjkf
09-04-2017, 12:56 PM
MonkeyDLuffy

1)All major Indian castes and religious groups across regions, whether Dravidian speakers or Indo-Aryan are quite homogenous when mtDNA and Y-DNA are concerned except Tibeto-Burmese groups. On the contrary what I've observed that European Y-Dna seems quite heterogenous when major groups like e.g. Albanian, Finnish and Irish are taken together.

2)Manipur is not an East Indian State, but North East Indian state. East Indian states are Indo-Aryan dominated regions like Bihar, Jharkhand, West Bengal and Orissa. The people there are culturally and genetically South Asian. North East India is dominated by Tibeto-Burmese speaking tribals/groups who are ethnically, genetically and physically much different than basic South Asians except for non-Tribal Assamese who are more like Indians.

3)Manipuris wouldn't be ideal for comparison here as far as religion, culture, food habits and genetics are concerned since they are Vaishnavite Hindus, have a caste system, heavy influence of Indian gods, have Indianised names, and even have a significant percentage of R1a probably because of migration of Brahmins from other parts of India. It would be better to compare to say tribes of Nagaland or Arunachal Pradesh and linguistically the difference would be more "English vs European Turkic" than "English vs Russian".

4)In HarappaWorld, I've seen Gujaratis and Southern Indian caste groups have higher SI than Bengalis. Bengalis, including Brahmins showed similar levels of SI to other Gangetic Plains people like that from UP and Bihar.

5)I've seen the doc and found only two Bengali samples over and over in different tests. How can these be used to generalize high East Eurasian among Bengalis. People from Uttaranchal and Nepal in Harappa has much higher East Eurasian admixture. Bengali is both an ethnic as well as a Geographical identifier. A lot non-Bengali tribals and social groups from West Bengal call themselves Bengali when out of their homestate. Moreover there is a sharp contrast between Bangladeshis and West Bengalis when Eastern mtDNA is concerned which showed 10% among Bangladeshi but only 1% among West Bengalis. For that matter many Northern Indian and Southern Indian groups have shown much higher East Eurasian mtDNA than West Bengalis. Bengali Brahmins in Harappa have East Eurasian component percentages similar to people from Bihar, UP, Kashmir people.

Brother who would you say are true Bengalis? As you said a lot non-Bengali tribals and social groups from West Bengal call themselves Bengali when out of their homestate,

Shadogowah
09-04-2017, 02:00 PM
I have a consistent 1% south Asian result on all of my DNA calculators on GEDmatch. I don't know if its from the Ottomans/Turks and brought to Italy, or if its from the English.

You are forgetting the gypsies.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-04-2017, 02:44 PM
He doesn't necessarily has Indian ancestry, it's normal level for euros.

Depends which European ethnicity they're from. The ASE can come with gypsies as well.

Roaring
09-04-2017, 07:53 PM
Depends which European ethnicity they're from. The ASE can come with gypsies as well.

Ethnicity doesn't really matter, absolute majority of European results i've seen has couple percents of ASE.

ANE 20.39
ASE 2.26
WHG-UHG 67.98
East_Eurasian 4.36
West_African 0.53
East_African 0.77
ENF 3.71

ANE 18.17
ASE 1.61
WHG-UHG 63.61
East_Eurasian 3.68
West_African -
East_African 0.71
ENF 12.21

ANE 17.99
ASE 3.26
WHG-UHG 65.29
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.55
East_African -
ENF 12.91

ANE 19.16
ASE 3.62
WHG-UHG 63.66
East_Eurasian 1.02
West_African -
East_African 0.63
ENF 11.92


4 results of my grandparents f.e.

surbakhunWeesste
09-04-2017, 08:45 PM
Brother who would you say are true Bengalis? As you said a lot non-Bengali tribals and social groups from West Bengal call themselves Bengali when out of their homestate,

Dang, you dared.

Reza
09-04-2017, 08:55 PM
Dang, you dared.

I'm confused what any of this is about..?

surbakhunWeesste
09-04-2017, 09:11 PM
I'm confused what any of this is about..?

If I start explaining, you might get more confused tbh, anyhoe, let me try:

How can there is a "true" anything in terms of a person's ethnic identity? But that's just my opinion and imo there is nothing scientific about what I just mentioned nor what the OP asked, be it in terms of admixture or cultural identity, its just farce to me, oh well

wgjkkwjkf
09-04-2017, 09:40 PM
If I start explaining, you might get more confused tbh, anyhoe, let me try:

How can there is a "true" anything in terms of a person's ethnic identity? But that's just my opinion and imo there is nothing scientific about what I just mentioned nor what the OP asked, be it in terms of admixture or cultural identity, its just farce to me, oh well

The person I replied to said some people were not true Bengalis but say they are Bengali which is why I asked him who he considers to be true Bengalis. There must be Bengalis and non-Bengalis, or everyone is a Bengali? Sorry if I said something wrong.

surbakhunWeesste
09-04-2017, 10:06 PM
The person I replied to said some people were not true Bengalis but say they are Bengali which is why I asked him who he considers to be true Bengalis. There must be Bengalis and non-Bengalis, or everyone is a Bengali? Sorry if I said something wrong.

lol, nah man,i poked my nose, mah bad. Now, we are turning into legit Canadians with the "sorry".

MonkeyDLuffy
09-04-2017, 11:02 PM
Ethnicity doesn't really matter, absolute majority of European results i've seen has couple percents of ASE.

ANE 20.39
ASE 2.26
WHG-UHG 67.98
East_Eurasian 4.36
West_African 0.53
East_African 0.77
ENF 3.71

ANE 18.17
ASE 1.61
WHG-UHG 63.61
East_Eurasian 3.68
West_African -
East_African 0.71
ENF 12.21

ANE 17.99
ASE 3.26
WHG-UHG 65.29
East_Eurasian -
West_African 0.55
East_African -
ENF 12.91

ANE 19.16
ASE 3.62
WHG-UHG 63.66
East_Eurasian 1.02
West_African -
East_African 0.63
ENF 11.92


4 results of my grandparents f.e.

Russian is understandable why they show ase as they've more east eurasian than west Europeans. Do you have any british or french person results?

spruithean
09-04-2017, 11:15 PM
Russian is understandable why they show ase as they've more east eurasian than west Europeans. Do you have any british or french person results?

I score ANE 16.52 and ASE 2.40 and my ancestry is primarily Dutch+Irish/British-Isles for multiple generations, as far as I know.

My entirely Dutch cousin scores ANE 15.66/ASE 1.11

Roaring
09-05-2017, 12:32 AM
Russian is understandable why they show ase as they've more east eurasian than west Europeans. Do you have any british or french person results?

Mixed Brittish family:
My results:
15.46% ANE
1.79% ASE
60.71% WHG-UHG
0.15% East_Eurasian
0.01% West_African
1.29% East_African
20.59% ENF

Paternal Grandfather:
16.16% ANE
2.00% ASE
63.97% WHG-UHG
0.08% East_Eurasian
0.10% West_African
0.33% East_African
17.36% ENF

Father:
14.91% ANE
2.11% ASE
64.21% WHG-UHG
0.30% East_Eurasian
0.31% West_African
0.14% East_African
18.02% ENF

Paternal Grandmother:
14.20% ANE
2.72% ASE
65.35% WHG-UHG
0.43% East_Eurasian
0.38% West_African
0.01% East_African
16.91% ENF


Albanian:


ANE 11.32
ASE 0.81
WHG-UHG 44.24
East_Eurasian 1.13
West_African -
East_African -
ENF 42.50

French\Irish:

ANE 15.39
ASE 1.85
WHG-UHG 62.47
East_Eurasian -
West_African -
East_African 0.77
ENF 19.52

MonkeyDLuffy
09-05-2017, 01:01 AM
Thanks for the results! That's interesting indeed, never thought ASE can be found as far as British isles.

JerryS.
09-05-2017, 01:52 AM
You are forgetting the gypsies.


Depends which European ethnicity they're from. The ASE can come with gypsies as well.

yes, it could very well be from gypsies. I have a little of a mixed back ground, the Italian part was allegedly from the Balkans at one time... which could account for some gypsy....

TB1977
09-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Roma type Gypsy ancestry isnt as rare as follks think. Really famous Romani last names like Smith, Wood, Rienheart and Rosenburg are easilly sold as Gadje names to everyone, including family inquiring about geneology. Fact: Gypsies are a very commmon ethnic group througout europe. You have a better chance having Romani ancestors than say hungarian or irish using the law of averages id bet. (Expecting flack but ill stand by the statement)

Amerijoe
09-06-2017, 01:00 AM
I'm a Scottish chap with some Asian flavor. My new terminal snp is YP6291<Y15121<Z2123<Z93. Under Y15121 I have 3 matches from India, 2 are Sri Lankan Tamils. I'm positive for M750 which is in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Himalayas and negative for L657. Positive for L342.2. I also have matches in Russia as well as Middle East. So in essence as far India is concerned, I'm learning my confusion is not alone. This would seem to be ancient in nature and not a result of some British incursion to India. Any and all thoughts would be welcomed. Here is my K7 for reference.
Population
ANE 15.87
ASE 2.72
WHG-UHG 62.51
East_African 0.80
ENF 18.10

JerryS.
09-06-2017, 01:27 AM
Roma type Gypsy ancestry isnt as rare as follks think. Really famous Romani last names like Smith, Wood, Rienheart and Rosenburg are easilly sold as Gadje names to everyone, including family inquiring about geneology. Fact: Gypsies are a very commmon ethnic group througout europe. You have a better chance having Romani ancestors than say hungarian or irish using the law of averages id bet. (Expecting flack but ill stand by the statement)


LOL, yeah those names clearly did not originate in England or Germany, they came from India.....

spruithean
09-06-2017, 01:31 AM
LOL, yeah those names clearly did not originate in England or Germany, they came from India.....

They are likely adopted surnames. There is an American family which was originally from England that belongs to Y haplogroup H of the Romani variety. Their surname is Locke and they are related to other confirmed Romani families with names like Campbell and other British sounding names.

It's not too far-fetched for those mentioned surnames to belong to Romani families and Romani diaspora. People adopted surnames generally found in the area they lived either to blend in or acquire some level of "protection".

JerryS.
09-06-2017, 05:44 AM
They are likely adopted surnames. There is an American family which was originally from England that belongs to Y haplogroup H of the Romani variety. Their surname is Locke and they are related to other confirmed Romani families with names like Campbell and other British sounding names.

It's not too far-fetched for those mentioned surnames to belong to Romani families and Romani diaspora. People adopted surnames generally found in the area they lived either to blend in or acquire some level of "protection".

meaning they are originally surnames of U.K. origin, not Romani origin like purported before.

spruithean
09-06-2017, 10:58 AM
meaning they are originally surnames of U.K. origin, not Romani origin like purported before.

Yes, but the people who adopted them were Romani (the Romani families in question, not everyone with whatever surname in the list). Genetics and surnames don't always blend perfectly together, especially Y-DNA and surnames in a lot of cases. Take Scottish clan DNA studies for instance. The Clan Donald alone has individuals considered part of the "native" clansmen and then a large amount of people do not fit into this group.

TB1977
09-06-2017, 04:29 PM
Spruthian has the right of it. Names like Wood and Reinheart are adopted names. These same surnames have become famous in Gypsy comunities. Wood being a famous Welsh Romany Gypsy clan whos singers and musicians have played for the Royalty of England. Django Reinheart is the Gypsy who created gypsy jazz ... look up him and his family the Rienhearts and Rosenbergs on you tube. 😉

TB1977
09-06-2017, 04:45 PM
Amerijoe, id say the safe bet is you have Romani ancestors based on what you provided as evidence. Two good books to read are My Life as a Gypsy by Manfri Fredrick Wood and The Book of Boswell by Gordon Boswell. They are great insight into Wagon Time and a sense of how, when and why, gorger and romany mixed back in the day.

I myself am Rom and count my family within the Wood Vitsa (clan) and im happy to talk to anyone interested in gypsy roots (travelers too )

name1000
09-06-2017, 05:14 PM
Lmao what an ignorant statement. British were never allowed to mix with majority of South Asians due to religious and cultural restrictions. It is very common for Indians, especially North Indians/Pakistanis to show European in their results. It is because of Shared ancestry with present day West asians and europeans. Let me simplify for you:

A has two sons, B and C. A lives in Eurasia, He sends B to Europe and C to South Asia. They both have lots of kids in their new homelands. Later on in future one of the descendants of C decides to take ancestry test and finds a match with B's descendant. He gets confused and ask on a forum for help. And then someone pops up telling him about Bob is your uncle. But in reality both share common ancestor. Uncle Bob never liked curry.

So no, your friend does not have british ancestry. Bhatias are found among all over North west South Asia. Your friend's ancestry is full South Asian.

Well technically whites were never allowed to mix with blacks in the US. Yet African Americans have about 20% European DNA.

parasar
09-06-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm a Scottish chap with some Asian flavor. My new terminal snp is YP6291<Y15121<Z2123<Z93. Under Y15121 I have 3 matches from India, 2 are Sri Lankan Tamils. I'm positive for M750 which is in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Himalayas and negative for L657. Positive for L342.2. I also have matches in Russia as well as Middle East. So in essence as far India is concerned, I'm learning my confusion is not alone. This would seem to be ancient in nature and not a result of some British incursion to India. Any and all thoughts would be welcomed. Here is my K7 for reference.
Population
ANE 15.87
ASE 2.72
WHG-UHG 62.51
East_African 0.80
ENF 18.10

No doubt.
Y15121 is too old.

YP6291 based on its current TMRCA looks completely from the Isles.
Does anyone know the ancestry of YF10722?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6291/

TB1977
09-06-2017, 05:36 PM
Well said name1000 in fact Roma from the Balkans were slaves for 400+ years and the various groups of Roma there are darker or ligher in skin color if ancestors were house or field slaves. Same as African Americans.

Amerijoe
09-06-2017, 06:49 PM
No doubt.
Y15121 is too old.

YP6291 based on its current TMRCA looks completely from the Isles.
Does anyone know the ancestry of YF10722?
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP6291/

Yes, YF10722 is an Irish fellow we just brought on board. Also, there are two other Brits who may be candidates, but refuse to participate, no matter the attractiveness of the offer. Prior to the British and Irish placements, my closest match was a Polish fellow with Prussian heritage at a TMRCA of 3700 years. These new results finally bring me back to the Isles. The two Scottish matches are both mine.

therrien.joel
09-07-2017, 02:12 PM
Just found this thread, so I'm joining the game a bit late but I did have a question about the Eurogenes ANI K7 that was mentioned earlier. My background is essentially 1/2 French Canadian, 1/4 English, 1/8 Irish & 1/8 Finnish however none of my population percentages based on that admixture match very well; I always have an excess of West or Central Asian and DNAland indicates ~3% Central Asian. I did not pay much attention to the ANI calculator because it did not have an oracle/spreadsheet associated with it. But now maybe it might be one more sliver of evidence that something isn't quite right with the above mentioned ancestry? Here is what I get:

Population
ANE 15.20
ASE 1.93
WHG-UHG 62.53
East_Eurasian 1.10
West_African 0.65
East_African 0.25
ENF 18.33

Any thoughts?

TB1977
09-07-2017, 05:04 PM
Best answer: your a gyppo like me. :) But we are not super special as Romany and Irish Gypsies + random homless, fair people etc were basically outlawed in Britian and subject to Transportation to the Colonies in US, Cannada, The Carribian and Australia.

Brittian dumped 2/3 of its prisioners into the Colonies before the US revolution and undoubtedly many were Romany and Irish Travellers.

One law allowed for the arrest of Egyptians and fake Egyptians living in the manner of Egyptians. Thats anybody living in a tent or wagon really...

The New World did offer itinerants of all kinds the chance to gain land and the benifits thereof. Many Gypsies and Travellers would arrive in the New World with a skillset well suited to the frontier life and were often classed as Whites in cencus etc.

Check websites like Romany Roots, Pavee Point (great Irish Traveler site) and Romany Jib for more insight. Several have lists of the well known Romanichal surnames. Folks are suprised to see names like Smith, Cooper, Price, Roberts, and Wood. Expecting a name like Bratovich or some other "Transilvanian" sounding name is a fast trip to a lost lead. The best rule of thumb is resident gypsy groups have surnames blending into the surounding dominant ethnic group. Recent arrivals having greater chance of a name sounding forigne and ethnically seperate. Example of aliases that become our native names such as Petalengro becoming Smith (a literal translation from Romani to English)

Irish Travellers are not south asian they are irish so wont be responsible for the querants south asian dna..Romany folks would. But often Travelers are called " not a Gypsy" in genealogical circles. Thats totally absurd and really, flat unaccaptable for a group focused on research not politics. Right now half of the bad gypsy type press, half the hate as well is carried by Irish Travellers not " Proper Romany Gypsies' such as myself. To this day they experiance predjudice while being labled Gypsy. We should acknoledge that. And remember how fluid terms such as hawker, gypsy, travelling ... really were back in the day.

Romani or Romany = India / Paki / Punjabi / Rajistani people long on a diaspora and long called Gypsy. But not the only group so labled by other valid cultures. Irish travellers were travellin doin the gypsy thang long before Romany folks got there for example.

therrien.joel
09-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Wish my grandmother were still of sound mind, I could ask her. I used to have long talks with her about the heritage on her side back when I was a kid and I recall she mentioned some slavic roots, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

therrien.joel
09-08-2017, 03:13 PM
Best answer: your a gyppo like me. :) But we are not super special as Romany and Irish Gypsies + random homless, fair people etc were basically outlawed in Britian and subject to Transportation to the Colonies in US, Cannada, The Carribian and Australia.

Brittian dumped 2/3 of its prisioners into the Colonies before the US revolution and undoubtedly many were Romany and Irish Travellers.

One law allowed for the arrest of Egyptians and fake Egyptians living in the manner of Egyptians. Thats anybody living in a tent or wagon really...

The New World did offer itinerants of all kinds the chance to gain land and the benifits thereof. Many Gypsies and Travellers would arrive in the New World with a skillset well suited to the frontier life and were often classed as Whites in cencus etc.

Check websites like Romany Roots, Pavee Point (great Irish Traveler site) and Romany Jib for more insight. Several have lists of the well known Romanichal surnames. Folks are suprised to see names like Smith, Cooper, Price, Roberts, and Wood. Expecting a name like Bratovich or some other "Transilvanian" sounding name is a fast trip to a lost lead. The best rule of thumb is resident gypsy groups have surnames blending into the surounding dominant ethnic group. Recent arrivals having greater chance of a name sounding forigne and ethnically seperate. Example of aliases that become our native names such as Petalengro becoming Smith (a literal translation from Romani to English)

Irish Travellers are not south asian they are irish so wont be responsible for the querants south asian dna..Romany folks would. But often Travelers are called " not a Gypsy" in genealogical circles. Thats totally absurd and really, flat unaccaptable for a group focused on research not politics. Right now half of the bad gypsy type press, half the hate as well is carried by Irish Travellers not " Proper Romany Gypsies' such as myself. To this day they experiance predjudice while being labled Gypsy. We should acknoledge that. And remember how fluid terms such as hawker, gypsy, travelling ... really were back in the day.

Romani or Romany = India / Paki / Punjabi / Rajistani people long on a diaspora and long called Gypsy. But not the only group so labled by other valid cultures. Irish travellers were travellin doin the gypsy thang long before Romany folks got there for example.

Do you know of any good resources for GEDmatch kit numbers associated with Romany people? I've seen a few and when I do try one-to-one matches with more liberal tolerances, I see a reasonable number of hits. Trying to find similar collections for peopledirectly from South Asia too.

TB1977
09-08-2017, 04:38 PM
Donald Locke is an American Romnichal who runs a Romany DNA project and i think i still have his kit number. Ill try to find but better yet is to contact him and his project. Hes got tons of info and knoledge to share.
My own ged kit A706675 and ged genisis PS8972581

Searcher
09-08-2017, 07:29 PM
I have 0.8% Northwestern European DNA (with 0.2% identified Finnish ancestry) and I don't doubt the possibility its presence since my other results are 2.2% East Asian (0.2% Mongolian, 0.2% Japanese, 4.2% Southeast Asian). Since my European and East Asian results are located in the Uralo-Altaic region, I could probably trace a few ancestors in the region of Central/East-Central Asia. Maybe Genghis Khan? That would be cool.

therrien.joel
09-08-2017, 07:52 PM
I have 0.8% Northwestern European DNA (with 0.2% identified Finnish ancestry) and I don't doubt the possibility its presence since my other results are 2.2% East Asian (0.2% Mongolian, 0.2% Japanese, 4.2% Southeast Asian). Since my European and East Asian results are located in the Uralo-Altaic region, I could probably trace a few ancestors in the region of Central/East-Central Asia. Maybe Genghis Khan? That would be cool.

I have developed a new form of oracle that is designed to start with someone who "knows" their ancestry and wants to find traces of other ethnicities that are throwing off the population percentages. I basically developed it because my own admixture won't work on oracles (known mixing at great-grandparent level) making it nearly impossible to tease out this Central Asian component that was showing up. It gave pretty consistent results for my own case across multiple calculators. If you want I can run it on your own kit and see if anything specific pops up. Wouldn't mind testing it some more, see if it works for others. I would only need a GEDmatch kit # and your best understanding of what your known admixture is.

TB1977
09-09-2017, 01:19 PM
Wow. That new oricale sounds awesome. Im excited by the possibility. You can run my #s but im possibly too much of a mutt for early testing?

Searcher might be great for this tho. And they say Gengis Khan has a ton of Western decendants. So its a possibility for sure.

therrien.joel
09-09-2017, 01:52 PM
Wow. That new oricale sounds awesome. Im excited by the possibility. You can run my #s but im possibly too much of a mutt for early testing?

Searcher might be great for this tho. And they say Gengis Khan has a ton of Western decendants. So its a possibility for sure.

Actually I created this precisely because I am too much of a mutt myself for the oracles to work correctly, so feel free to send me a message with your kit number and your best guess for admixture. You haven't crossed the posting threshold to send PMs but apparently there is a way to still send a message.

My bad... you already shared the kit number. Question is if you know your admixture.

therrien.joel
09-09-2017, 01:57 PM
Donald Locke is an American Romnichal who runs a Romany DNA project and i think i still have his kit number. Ill try to find but better yet is to contact him and his project. Hes got tons of info and knoledge to share.
My own ged kit A706675 and ged genisis PS8972581

BTW, thanks for that. Turns out I had run across a trove of his numbers a few days ago. There are some weak matches. So far between those and the few South Asian numbers I have been able to find it's an even split, so it's hard to say whether the source is Romani or directly from India.

JerryS.
09-10-2017, 01:18 AM
I have developed a new form of oracle that is designed to start with someone who "knows" their ancestry and wants to find traces of other ethnicities that are throwing off the population percentages. I basically developed it because my own admixture won't work on oracles (known mixing at great-grandparent level) making it nearly impossible to tease out this Central Asian component that was showing up. It gave pretty consistent results for my own case across multiple calculators. If you want I can run it on your own kit and see if anything specific pops up. Wouldn't mind testing it some more, see if it works for others. I would only need a GEDmatch kit # and your best understanding of what your known admixture is.


PM inbound.

TB1977
09-11-2017, 04:04 PM
Therrien, i was just talking with Donald this weekend. His understanding of Romany Genetics is outstanding. Hes really the guy to ask. Ill ask him whats best way for you guys to connect. (I simply facebook stalked him. Lol.)

What sort of ancestry dna / 23 an me sort of admixtures do you see? For myself i see a trail of countries in my "trace regions"that align with the route from India to Brittian and ultimatly the US. Some sort of similar genetic footprints of the route to the UK would be indicative of Romany Roots. After the founders left india there was no way to add back the Asian blood as ywars and generations came and went. Some bonafied Romanichal in the UK on illigal sites living in caravans being persicuted daily as Gypsies have 0% south Asian scores now. There are male and female haplogroups that do show without a doubt that some of these 0% south asians are direct decendants of the original Romany Progenitor Group to leave India.

Picture a smaller family group not a big army moving slowly west. Despite strong endogomy traditions they dilute as they grow in numbers and move further away from Rajastan and surrounding area. However in each country they move into they retain a dark forign look until blending with locals after generations. Ont to again move and become forigne, scary gypsies again. Yes we are often dark but its relitive to the people telling the story in the past with often provincial understanding. In the US im white. In UK id be more ...exotic espicially if im dressed differently as a example.

Example is the wife of my grandmothers brother. In records the whole family generations back in multiple countries are "white" race, say on cencus etc. Their wedding anoucement callls her " the fairest brunett beauty from all Cathey" then talks abouth how great members of the comunity everyone is...

Remember too, in the UK especially the traditional Romany folks kicked people out of the clan for all sorts of reasons. Making assimilation almost the only option. Example " marrying a gorger is a crime " type stuff. However, obviously this is nuanced. So "Tina is disowned cuz ahe married a gorger but Sally married this other gorger who we all like and who is willing to learn the family way. So we love Sally and her gorger hubby who is a gorger with a gypsy hear an thats what counts after all. Sally didnt dilute our blood like Tina did, thats for sure!" (Hypothetical story highlighting the conflict and overlap in genetics and culture)

Searcher
09-11-2017, 06:32 PM
I have developed a new form of oracle that is designed to start with someone who "knows" their ancestry and wants to find traces of other ethnicities that are throwing off the population percentages. I basically developed it because my own admixture won't work on oracles (known mixing at great-grandparent level) making it nearly impossible to tease out this Central Asian component that was showing up. It gave pretty consistent results for my own case across multiple calculators. If you want I can run it on your own kit and see if anything specific pops up. Wouldn't mind testing it some more, see if it works for others. I would only need a GEDmatch kit # and your best understanding of what your known admixture is.

I would love to! I will message you with the info when I get home. Do yo want the gedmatch kit number?

therrien.joel
09-11-2017, 07:38 PM
I would love to! I will message you with the info when I get home. Do yo want the gedmatch kit number?

Yes, I would need that and a breakdown of your ancestry as you know it. Unlike other oracles, this one has to start with your best guess and it will refine the admixture from there.

Searcher
09-11-2017, 08:47 PM
Yes, I would need that and a breakdown of your ancestry as you know it. Unlike other oracles, this one has to start with your best guess and it will refine the admixture from there.

Glad we are in agreement!

Ps. I hope the mods will forgive me for making this superfluous post so I can hit 15 and finally PM you.

TB1977
09-12-2017, 07:27 PM
I forgive you. Mods need to take into account that this gypsy has trouble using the internet. Lol. The pm should be a big help.

Searcher
09-12-2017, 07:42 PM
I forgive you. Mods need to take into account that this gypsy has trouble using the internet. Lol. The pm should be a big help.

You will not be disappointed. Whatever therrien.joel did to his calculator fit the puzzle pieces together to accommodate my East Asian DNA.

therrien.joel
09-18-2017, 02:38 AM
You will not be disappointed. Whatever therrien.joel did to his calculator fit the puzzle pieces together to accommodate my East Asian DNA.

Glad to hear it. Once I get a few personal things settled and the semester is well underway (we professors don't have it any easier than the students!) I will start asking for anyone interested to let me try running it on their kits.

therrien.joel
09-18-2017, 02:42 AM
Therrien, i was just talking with Donald this weekend. His understanding of Romany Genetics is outstanding. Hes really the guy to ask. Ill ask him whats best way for you guys to connect. (I simply facebook stalked him. Lol.)

What sort of ancestry dna / 23 an me sort of admixtures do you see? For myself i see a trail of countries in my "trace regions"that align with the route from India to Brittian and ultimatly the US. Some sort of similar genetic footprints of the route to the UK would be indicative of Romany Roots. After the founders left india there was no way to add back the Asian blood as ywars and generations came and went. Some bonafied Romanichal in the UK on illigal sites living in caravans being persicuted daily as Gypsies have 0% south Asian scores now. There are male and female haplogroups that do show without a doubt that some of these 0% south asians are direct decendants of the original Romany Progenitor Group to leave India.

Picture a smaller family group not a big army moving slowly west. Despite strong endogomy traditions they dilute as they grow in numbers and move further away from Rajastan and surrounding area. However in each country they move into they retain a dark forign look until blending with locals after generations. Ont to again move and become forigne, scary gypsies again. Yes we are often dark but its relitive to the people telling the story in the past with often provincial understanding. In the US im white. In UK id be more ...exotic espicially if im dressed differently as a example.

Example is the wife of my grandmothers brother. In records the whole family generations back in multiple countries are "white" race, say on cencus etc. Their wedding anoucement callls her " the fairest brunett beauty from all Cathey" then talks abouth how great members of the comunity everyone is...

Remember too, in the UK especially the traditional Romany folks kicked people out of the clan for all sorts of reasons. Making assimilation almost the only option. Example " marrying a gorger is a crime " type stuff. However, obviously this is nuanced. So "Tina is disowned cuz ahe married a gorger but Sally married this other gorger who we all like and who is willing to learn the family way. So we love Sally and her gorger hubby who is a gorger with a gypsy hear an thats what counts after all. Sally didnt dilute our blood like Tina did, thats for sure!" (Hypothetical story highlighting the conflict and overlap in genetics and culture)

Sorry for dropping off the radar like that. Hadn't noticed the message due to an extreme level of distraction. I may have found a direct, if distant, relative that would answer the question of Romani vs Indian.

therrien.joel
09-18-2017, 09:43 PM
Sorry for dropping off the radar like that. Hadn't noticed the message due to an extreme level of distraction. I may have found a direct, if distant, relative that would answer the question of Romani vs Indian.

Just filling in the details here. I made an accidental discovery of someone in GEDmatch that ended up having two chromosome segments where he and a distant cousin form a triangulation group with me, that in combination with a number of other cases where I match him and his closer family members would lead me to believe that he is a likely distant relative. If I understand his ancestry correctly, he is Jatt which makes a direct if a bit distant link to India.

Interestingly enough, I mentioned this to a colleague of mine today who is from India. The first thing he said took me a bit by surprise, which was that if I were in certain parts of India I would blend right in. Don't know about that but I'll take his word for it. Second thing he mentioned was that Jatt people had migrated to Canada starting about 200 years ago. I am half French Canadian and the mystery ancestor was probably alive about that time. Not a smoking gun, but does give me a clue to try looking into.

TB1977
09-20-2017, 05:33 PM
This might help http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982212012602

Trixster
09-20-2017, 09:05 PM
Following this thread. I have the same in reverse for my mom. Mostly European (with Admixture). Usually tests are consistent with North and West Africa.

When I uploaded results to Gencove yesterday, the African disappeared but she got some 4% South Indian subcontinent. Seems like a misinterpretation.

I got none of that at all (and we usually do not score Indian on any other calculator)