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View Full Version : I2a+ in Britain: which boat did your ancestor get on?



Jean M
05-22-2017, 10:14 PM
I once had The Story of I on my website, but took it down as I couldn't keep it updated. I have been working on it lately in the light of all the new aDNA. We are at last getting a clearer idea of when some subclades of I2a in Britain arrived.


I2a2 (M436/P214/PF3856/S33) has been found in Mesolithic Ukraine 6500-4000 BCE. It also appears in Neolithic Britain at Banbury Lane, Northampton.
I2a2a (M223) has been found at Falkensteiner Höhle in Mesolithic Germany. There are other samples in Mesolithic Ukraine, and the Mesolithic Iron Gates.
I2a2a1 (CTS616) has been found in Neolithic Britain at Banbury Lane, Northampton.
I2a2a1a (M284) seems to have arisen in Britain, where it is most common. It is very rare in Continental Europe, where the highest frequency is found in Portugal, Britain's oldest ally. James Wilson argues that this points to an Iberian origin in the Mesolithic, but the calculated TMRCA is far too late for such a scenario, and the parent clade is not found there. Instead the flow was most probably in the other direction - to Portugal over the centuries with British merchants, diplomats, sailors and soldiers. M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland. Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, and particularly in baronial families with a credible pedigree back to a Cruithin (British) origin, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain. For example it is found in McGuinness and McCartan men descended from the Uí Echach Cobha, a lineage considered Cruithin in the 6th century AD.
I2a2a1a1a (L1195) was found in Distillery Cave, Oban, Argyll and Bute in the Neolithic, and a Bell Beaker male buried at Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham).
I2a2a1a1a1 (L126/S165) was found in a Middle Bronze Age burial on the small island of Pabay Mor, off the coast of the Isle of Lewis, Western Isles. Today it is most common in Scotland and those of Scots ancestry.





I2a1b (M423) appears in a Mesolithic male buried in what is now Loschbour in Luxembourg, two other Mesolithic samples from Sweden, and one from the Narva culture in Lithuania. It has also been found in Neolithic England at Banbury Lane, Northampton. I2a1b* is rare today, though it sired flourishing subclades.
I2a1b1 (L161.1/S185). Found in Neolithic Spain at Els Trocs. Found in Scotland in a Neolithic chamber tomb at Isbister, Orkney, and another Neolithic chamber tomb, located at the northern end of Loch Calder, near Thurso in the former county of Caithness.
I2a1b1a (L1498) Found in the Funnel Beaker culture at Esperstedt.
I2a1b2 (L621/S392). TMRCA 6600 ybp (YFull).This group was labelled Disles by Ken Nordvedt, before the SNPs were found that distinguished between the British Isles type and the Slavic type (see below).
I-CTS4002 (SK1240/YP198/S23503) on YFull. One sample from Poland on YFull. Parent of the two subclades below, which strongly suggests that it did not arise in Britain.
I-FGC20479 (YFull) TMRCA 4600 (YFull). One sample from Ireland, another from UK on YFull. Appears today in Scotland and Ireland. Moved north with an Indo-European band and arrived in Britain with the Celts?
I2a1b2a (CTS5966, CTS10228) is strongly correlated with the distribution of the Slavic languages, particularly South Slavic. TMRCA of 5300 ybp (YFull). Prior to the discovery of SNPs defining this subclade, it was labelled by Ken Nordvedt as I2a-Dinaric.

Judith
05-29-2017, 02:17 PM
Jean I am puzled, my brother's living DNA test has him as I2a1a1 (I(M26)) which shows on ISOGG as

• I2 M438/P215/PF3853/S31, L68/PF3781/S329, PF3664/Z2638
• • I2a L460/PF3647/S238
• • • I2a1 P37.2/PF4004
• • • • I2a1a CTS595
• • • • • I2a1a1 M26/PF4056, L158/PF4073/S433, L159.1/S169.1

but you have no M26 on your definition above for I2a1a1 but you do have CTS616 as the defining mutation. How many different tree variants exist?
For reference our paternal line is West Cheshire
I am still learning about this so please excuse me for yet another beginners question.

Dewsloth
05-29-2017, 04:09 PM
My 9th and 10th great grandfathers were M223/I2a2a and got on the Mayflower, I guess the urge to move west hadn't fully abated yet. :biggrin1:

Jean M
05-29-2017, 04:21 PM
Jean I am puzzled, my brother's living DNA test has him as I2a1a1 (I(M26)) which shows on ISOGG as .. but you have no M26 on your definition above for I2a1a1 but you do have CTS616 as the defining mutation.

No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:


I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.

Jean M
05-29-2017, 04:37 PM
I am still learning about this so please excuse me for yet another beginners question.

You don't need to worry about that. There are newcomers to the field (and this forum) all the time. Some may be hesitant to ask the questions that arise in their minds, so they will bless you for doing it. :)

George
05-29-2017, 04:38 PM
I2a1b2a (CTS5966, CTS10228) is strongly correlated with the distribution of the Slavic languages, particularly South Slavic. TMRCA of 5300 ybp (YFull). Prior to the discovery of SNPs defining this subclade, it was labelled by Ken Nordvedt as I2a-Dinaric.

[/LIST]

True percentage wise re South Slavs. Interestingly however northern representatives of I2a1b2a are far more numerous in absolute terms.

Judith
05-29-2017, 05:43 PM
No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:


I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.

Thank you very much! I really must learn to concentrate on these letters/ numbers since I did have my glasses on!
Eupedia is keen on the Megalithic culture spreading M26, but the ancient Ukraine sample does not support that.

lgmayka
05-29-2017, 07:32 PM
I2a1b2a (CTS5966, CTS10228) is strongly correlated with the distribution of the Slavic languages, particularly South Slavic. TMRCA of 5300 ybp (YFull). Prior to the discovery of SNPs defining this subclade, it was labelled by Ken Nordvedt as I2a-Dinaric.
The TMRCA of I-CTS10228 is only 2300 ybp (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/) (shockingly!). 5300 ybp is the so-called "formed" date--the date of initial divergence from siblings.

Jean M
05-29-2017, 08:09 PM
The TMRCA of I-CTS10228 is only 2300 ybp (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/) (shockingly!). 5300 ybp is the so-called "formed" date--the date of initial divergence from siblings.

It is too late to fix it above, but I have done so in my notes, thanks.

ArmandoR1b
05-29-2017, 11:38 PM
Eupedia is keen on the Megalithic culture spreading M26,
Not that I think Eupedia is the best site to get information from but Maciamo Hays didn't write that the Megalithic culture spread M26. At http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1a he states "I2a1a had a very wide distribution from Iberia to Scandinavia during the Mesolithic period. Later, they would have adopted agriculture by intermixing with Near Eastern newcomers." and before that he wrote "I2a1a-M26 was probably one of the main paternal lineages of the Megalithic cultures of western Europe during the Neolithic and Chalcolithic periods." So he is saying that I2a1a was widespread before the Megalithic cultures of western Europe but once it appeared I2a1a was likely one of the main paternal lineages. He is likely correct and it doesn't conflict with what Jean wrote.


but the ancient Ukraine sample does not support that.
Neither does the Hunter-Gatherer sample Motala [9] from Sweden dated to 5898-5531 BC which Maciamo references with the statement "I2a1a1a (L672) was already found in Mesolithic Sweden, which implies that I2a1a had a very wide distribution from Iberia to Scandinavia during the Mesolithic period." The page probably hasn't been updated since Vasilyevka 3 from Ukraine was published in Jones et al. 2017 and Mathieson et al. 2017 since there is no mention of the specimen.

ronzo
06-24-2017, 04:29 AM
Hello Jean
I thought I would mention my uncle who I am the admin for tested positive for L621 and negative for I-CTS4002. My terminal SNP according to FTDNA is CTS10936. I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
Thanks

Jean M
06-24-2017, 10:43 AM
I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
Thanks

Welcome to the forum Ronzo! That is very helpful. I have added it to my notes. :)

Dewsloth
09-14-2017, 11:42 PM
No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:


I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.


Huh, how about that. I found a FTDNA surname group that had Y-descendants of one of my ancestors, and John Mead Sr. (born ~1634, Kent or 1628, Watford; died February 5, 1699 in Greenwich, Fairfield, Connecticut) is listed there as I2a1 P37.


From some other descendant's notes:

John Mead, ... , the son of William and Philippa Mead, started out in his younger years being what we would call a juvenile delinquent. He even spent time in a New Haven jail. It was said of him on record, “he was an excitable young man and a public nuisance.”

bix
09-15-2017, 01:23 AM
No - what I have for CTS616 is I2a2a1, not I2a1a1. Here is what I have for your brother's line:


I2a1 (P37.2/PF4004) I2a1* is rare today. The earliest example so far discovered was in Mesolithic Ukraine 8280-7967 calBCE. One sample was found in a Pitted Ware hunter-gatherer, and another at Motala in Mesolithic Sweden 5898-5531 BC. Two examples of I2a1 have been found in the DNA of Neolithic farmers. They were among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC is the very last phase of the Neolithic in the region before the arrival of the Bell Beaker culture. Ken Nordtvedt considers their haplotypes consistent with I2a1a (M26).
I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.
I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Portugal.


As you can see, it is unclear whether your brother's haplogroup would have arrived in Britain in the Neolithic or with Bell Beaker or both. Frankly I would go for Bell Beaker, as there is no Cardial Ware in the British Neolithic. But the big BB paper turned up a surprise by suggesting some Iberian influence on the British and Irish Neolithic. Time will tell.

Am I mistaken or wasn't I-M26 found among Mesolithic Motala remains?

Also, I would point out that Bichon, way up in the Jura far from any coast, was (called at least) CTS-595, a few mutations short of an M26.

I would offer that I2a could have hopped on the Impressa Ware boat anywhere along the Adriatic, or even farther west.

Anatolia is nice enough, if I2a came from there, why did they all leave... or are there some there still.

Just wondering.

Jean M
09-15-2017, 08:24 AM
Am I mistaken or wasn't I-M26 found among Mesolithic Motala remains? ... Anatolia is nice enough, if I2a came from there, why did they all leave... or are there some there still.


Palaeolithic. The first big question is where Y-DNA haplogroup I2 was sheltering from the cold during the worst of the Ice Age. Given that the haplogroup is strongly European in distribution, I would bet on somewhere in southern Europe, perhaps south-eastern Europe. The Grotte de Bichon seems too far north to be winter quarters. The sample there was more likely roaming during the summer.
Mesolithic. I2 subclades spread north in the Mesolithic, as the climate warmed. We can picture some I2 hunter-gatherers following the herds of cold-adapted animals like reindeer as they moved to Scandinavia. But some stayed in the Balkans, perhaps taking advantage of the ample fishing in the Danube or other rivers. This probably would be where the first contact with farmers took place, for:
Neolithic. There are bursts of new lineages in I2 at c. 8,000 years ago = 6000 BC, as farming reached the Danube Basin. So it seems that at least some I2 foragers adopted farming from incoming farmers, or joined their communities. KO1 is an example of this - a man carrying I2a in a Koros farming community in Tiszaszölös-Domahaza, Hungary in 5781-5715 calBCE.
Impressed Ware. But how did I2a1a (M26) get on board the Impressed Ware movement? That's the puzzle, for Impressed Ware seems to have come from the Levant. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia, and looks like a founder effect. So I was looking east of Sardinia. If it was Anatolia, that would be explained by Mesolithic drift along the coast from Europe, I think, rather than Anatolia being the LGM refuge. But as you say, there are other possibilities for the place I2 fell in with Impressed Ware farmers.