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View Full Version : Interesting Pennsylvania Dutch (German) Ethnicity estimate. Why so British?



Hayden
05-25-2017, 11:48 AM
Hello, this is my first time posting instead of just lurking. I thought I would share some of my family results on the off chance someone other than myself might find them interesting. And hopefully to get some feedback on why the results may of came back the way they did. I am also curious to know if others who are of Pennsylvania Dutch descent or from in and around Rhineland-Palatinate in western Europe have had similar results or wildly different ones.

A bit of a quick background on PA Dutch curtsy of wikipedia.

The Pennsylvania Dutch (Pennsilfaanisch Deitsch) are a cultural group formed by early German-speaking immigrants to Pennsylvania and their descendants. The word "Dutch" does not refer to the Dutch people (Nederlanders) or their descendants, but to Deitsch (in dialect) or Deutsch (in German). Most emigrated to the U.S. from Germany or Switzerland in the 17th and 18th century. Over time, the various dialects spoken by these immigrants fused into a unique dialect of German known as Pennsylvania German or Pennsylvania "Dutch". At one time, more than one-third of Pennsylvania's population spoke this language.

My family tree information is pretty full. Thanks in large part to my dads Genealogy hobby, I have information on 247 direct ancestors on my fathers side and 214 on my mothers. Between my fathers work tracing back in time and Ancestry DNA’s cousin matching feature that has helped to confirm the various paper trials I can say my father is very Pennsylvania Dutch, in fact it looks as though he could well be 100%

So I was pretty confused when I got these results back from his DNA test:

95% European
27% Great Britain
20% Europe West
17% Iberian Peninsula
11% Scandinavia
8 % Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
6% Italy/Greece
5% Europe East
2% European Jewish
5% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 60% confidence
Settlers of the Susquehanna River Valley - 20% confidence

I didn’t expect it to come back 100% western European, far from it. I have a reasonable understanding of European history and I expected a wide variety of groups to be represented. But only 20% Europe West? And why so much British? Sure the English were largely decedents from the French and German so maybe it just classified based on the presumably close Genetic Distance? If that is the case, what explains the 8% Irish?

This was made all the more confusing after getting my mothers test results back.

98% European
61% Europe West
20% Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
5% Italy/Greece
4% Iberian Peninsula
2% European Jewish
2% Europe East
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
<1% Great Britain
2% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 95% confidence

My mother has 1/4 of a mixture of Welsh, Irish and English according to her family tree, and as much as 75% PA Dutch. Her results on their own were not that surprising. The Irish showed up about what was expected. Having less than 1% GB was a little odd at first, but then I realized all of her English ancestors I knew of were either on the welsh border like Herefordshire, or from the north, like Cheshire, Lancashire, and Yorkshire. That DNA could likely be lumped in with the Irish, Welsh, and Scottish. It was mainly odd in its stark contrast to my fathers. The 61% Europe West seems correct, but higher than expected given typical native average is only 48%. The oddest part to me was that all the Germanic ancestors on both sides of my family came from the same regions of Germany and western Europe in general. the only difference being that my mother had a pair of 4th Great-grandparents who came over from Prussia (Neuwied, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany) in 1860, instead of the early to mid 1700’s like the rest of our Western European ancestors.

When I uploaded the kits to GedMatch and ran a few tests, they didn’t look so different anymore.

Father's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 44.07
2. Baltic - 20.08
3. West_Med - 16.64
4. East_Med - 8.03
5. West_Asian - 7.53
6. Red_Sea - 1.32
7. Siberian - 0.89
8. South_Asian - 0.44
9. Oceanian - 0.35
10. Northeast_African - 0.24
11. Sub-Saharan - 0.23
12. Amerindian - 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. South_Dutch - 2.65
2. West_German - 3.07
3. French - 5.02
4. Southeast_English - 7.81
5. Southwest_English - 8.89
6. North_German - 9.68
7. Orcadian - 9.8
8. North_Dutch - 10.38
9. Danish - 10.56
10. Irish - 10.59
11. Austrian - 10.72
12. West_Scottish - 10.91
13. East_German - 12.54
14. Spanish_Cataluna - 12.58
15. Norwegian - 12.84
16. Swedish - 13.87
17. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon - 13.92
18. Spanish_Galicia - 13.94
19. Portuguese - 13.97
20. Spanish_Cantabria - 14.92

Mother's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 43.56
2. Baltic - 24.37
3. West_Med - 15.36
4. East_Med - 7.6
5. West_Asian - 6.28
6. East_Asian - 1.17
7. Red_Sea - 0.83
8. Sub-Saharan - 0.43
9. Amerindian - 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. West_German - 2.68
2. South_Dutch - 2.78
3. Southeast_English - 7.04
4. North_German - 7.05
5. Austrian - 7.62
6. French - 8.02
7. North_Dutch - 8.41
8. Danish - 8.46
9. Orcadian - 8.67
10. Southwest_English - 8.88
11. East_German - 9.04
12. Irish - 9.73
13. West_Scottish - 10.32
14. Norwegian - 10.44
15. Swedish - 10.8
16. Hungarian - 12.28
17. North_Swedish - 14.62
18. Spanish_Cataluna - 15.54
19. Serbian - 16.39
20. Spanish_Galicia - 16.63

So my father does cluster with the West German after all? If this is the case, whats going on with the Ancestry results?

Here are a list of my Father's direct ancestors surnames:
Angstadt
Breil
Breidegam
Braun
Brombacher
Brunner
Busch
Christ/Christmann
Derr
Dietrich
Drach
Ebbert
Erlander
Essig
Fegley/Vögli
Fies
Fischer
Frey/Frei
Gaertner/Gärtner
George/Georg
Haas
Hantz
Heffner
Hilbert
Holben
Kassel
Keller
Kistler
Klein
Kunkel
Kurtz
Lentz/Lenz
Leitheiser/Leithauser
Levan
Martz/Mertz
Maul
Meck/Mack
Moser/Musser
Moyer
Orstel/Borstel
Rausch
Reider
Ritter
Ruppert
Sassemanhausen
Schlockerman
Schmitt
Schneider
Schuster
Schwab
Steinbruch
Strauch
Wagner
Weber
Weiss
Weidner
Will
Zimmerman
Zode


And here are my Mother's direct ancestor surnames:

Adams
Buck
Bittenbender
Clingman
Cawley
Cox
Defrehn
Dewalt
Dieffenbauch
Diehl
Drach
Dugan
Ebbert
Engel
Faust
Fryman
Gearhart
George
Gilbert
Gross
Haeuser
Harter
Heller
Henry
Hertzel
Hess
Hoffman
Hutton
Keiper
Keller
Kneple
Lawall
Longfield
Longenberger
Lowe
Mason
Melick
Maurer/Mowery
Metzger
Miller
Naulin
Parr
Philips
Price
Prosser
Puberbach
Readler
Reese
Reichard
Reider
Richard
Robinholt/Rabenold
Schlosser
Schober
Schwin
Sell
Shuman
Smith
Springer
Tanner
Umstead
Van Hise
Walter
Weaver
Weber
Wenner
Young

sktibo
05-25-2017, 08:28 PM
The short answer is that for northern Europeans, it's a bad calculator. the Great Britain category is a mix of Scand, Irish, and probably Europe West. People often get Europe West when expecting Britain.
It can't seem to effectively tell apart French, British, Germans, and Dutch.

C J Wyatt III
05-25-2017, 08:36 PM
Maybe a male Pennsylvania Dutch came over without a wife and married a non-Dutch woman who he gave a Dutch family history.

I think I have an example of that with my maternal line.

Jack Wyatt

Hayden
05-25-2017, 10:12 PM
Thank you both for your replies.


The short answer is that for northern Europeans, it's a bad calculator. the Great Britain category is a mix of Scand, Irish, and probably Europe West. People often get Europe West when expecting Britain.
It can't seem to effectively tell apart French, British, Germans, and Dutch.

Interesting! I am glad to know, in a way, that it may not be as large an outlier as I thought. I have been thinking, mostly, that their calculations are simply off since I viewed the results on GedMatch with various other calculators. I think it would of been easier to reconcile in mind if my parents results were more similar. Its just odd when every known line in the family goes back to Western Germany around the Rhine, if not from nearby Switzerland, Alsace France, or to French Huguenots that had been living in Germany. All from areas that are right in the center of what they consider Europe West. But I can certainly understand that groups in the area are closely related, thus difficult to distinguish.


Maybe a male Pennsylvania Dutch came over without a wife and married a non-Dutch woman who he gave a Dutch family history.

I think I have an example of that with my maternal line.


I definitely won't rule out the possibility that some of my ancestors could of married non Europe West individuals, It just seems unlikely that it would happen to a high enough frequency to make a huge contribution to the gene pool. In part because I would think my swarthy, German speaking farmers would have trouble landing English Girls. They also were all pretty much Lutheran or German Reform. My Mother's PA Dutch families moved from the heavy German area of Pa, in and around Berks county, (Where my Fathers families are all from) to a slightly more diverse area further north where they started speaking English, if not exclusively English. Then they started to get married to people regardless of origins. One of the reasons I thought their results were bizarre, at least my Dad's in comparison.

The first thing I did when my fathers results came back, after a brief moment of bewilderment, was to make sure may dad was actually related to all the family lines in his family tree. I was able to confirm pretty far back on every major branch of his family using cousins, and distant cousin matches. So it certainly isn't the result of some recent infidelity. That would of at least simplified the matter in some respects, lol.

Also I thought I would note that my fathers Y-DNA Haplogroup is J2b, which does help to explain the 5% Caucasus. He also has a nearly perfect match (one mutation) with a distant cousin from California that confirms their common relationship with a paternal ancestor in Oberdiebach, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany that was born in the late 1600's.

emmental
05-25-2017, 10:14 PM
My ancestry is overwhelmingly PA Dutch. All but two of my ancestors nine generations back (colonial times) were in the US before the revolution. The other two immigrated before 1800. Only three of these (less than 1%) had British ancestry. My heritage is mostly: (1) Dutch and North German (Kempen, Dordrecht, Goch) Mennonites, who immigrated to Germantown, Philadelphia in the late 17th century with surnames such as op den Graeff, Godschalk, Rittenhouse, Custer, Hendricks and Tyson; (2) Swiss and South German Mennonites who immigrated to Montgomery, Bucks, Northampton and Berks Counties in the 18th Century with surnames such as Landis, Moyer, Fretz, Oberholtzer, Kolb, Clemmer, Clemens, Derstine, Detweiler, Funk, Hiestand, Hunsberger and Hunsicker; and (3) a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl.

All of these ancestors were born within a thirty mile radius of where I was born.

Most of the calculators on GED Match list me as North Atlantic of some type. The original results from my FTDNA My Origins was mostly Scandinavian. I was pleased when I heard they were updating My Origins. I was disheartened to see the new results listed as 71% British Isles and 27% Southeast Europe. Can't wait to see what the next update will bring.

sktibo
05-25-2017, 10:18 PM
Interesting! I am glad to know, in a way, that it may not be as large an outlier as I thought. I have been thinking, mostly, that their calculations are simply off since I viewed the results on GedMatch with various other calculators. I think it would of been easier to reconcile in mind if my parents results were more similar. Its just odd when every known line in the family goes back to Western Germany around the Rhine, if not from nearby Switzerland, Alsace France, or to French Huguenots that had been living in Germany. All from areas that are right in the center of what they consider Europe West. But I can certainly understand that groups in the area are closely related, thus difficult to distinguish.


People with Germanic ancestry rarely get reasonable AncestryDNA results. I don't think there is a company that really does a good job with that ethnic type. However, I don't think Ancestry here is entirely wrong, there is common genetic ground between all of these NW European areas, and a recent study has just shown that this common ground goes deeper than we once thought it did.

Hayden
05-25-2017, 11:25 PM
My ancestry is overwhelmingly PA Dutch. All but two of my ancestors nine generations back (colonial times) were in the US before the revolution. The other two immigrated before 1800. Only three of these (less than 1%) had British ancestry. My heritage is mostly: (1) Dutch and North German (Kempen, Dordrecht, Goch) Mennonites, who immigrated to Germantown, Philadelphia in the late 17th century with surnames such as op den Graeff, Godschalk, Rittenhouse, Custer, Hendricks and Tyson; (2) Swiss and South German Mennonites who immigrated to Montgomery, Bucks, Northampton and Berks Counties in the 18th Century with surnames such as Landis, Moyer, Fretz, Oberholtzer, Kolb, Clemmer, Clemens, Derstine, Detweiler, Funk, Hiestand, Hunsberger and Hunsicker; and (3) a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl.

All of these ancestors were born within a thirty mile radius of where I was born.

Most of the calculators on GED Match list me as North Atlantic of some type. The original results from my FTDNA My Origins was mostly Scandinavian. I was pleased when I heard they were updating My Origins. I was disheartened to see the new results listed as 71% British Isles and 27% Southeast Europe. Can't wait to see what the next update will bring.

Thanks for sharing, that is very interesting. My father was also born within a similarly small radius of where most his ancestors had lived, with a few small exceptions. He was born north of Germantown on the border of Berks and Lehigh, not unexpectedly, most of his ancestors are from East Berks, and West Lehigh. I have yet to find confirmation of any family members being Mennonite but a few of my ancestors did come on ships from areas of south-western Germany that were supposed Mennonite hot-spots. I would say on my fathers side their were probably more German Reformed, than Lutheran. But they shared many Union Churches so there was mixing there. (That did get me thinking that I think my mothers side was possibly more Lutheran and that could maybe explain some difference in the DNA results. Only in the aspect they may not of ran in all the same circles as I thought they had.)

It is funny you say "a smattering of Swiss and South German Lutherans and Reformed with surnames such as Dotterer, Decker, Faust and Diehl." My Grandmother on my mother sides maiden name is Diehl and we are a Descendants of a Diehl who married a Faust. (He was also kidnapped at two by Native Americans durring the French & Indian war, but thats another story.)

Interestingly enough, my father had FTDNA done a few years ago (mostly to get his Y-DNA Haplogroup) and I remember he also had Scandinavian as his largest group listed. I never really trusted it though. It was only after I got my results back from ancestry and they looked, at a glace to be nearly spot on, that I decided to get him retested through them hoping to get a more accurate picture.

My results were:

Europe 98%
Europe West 54%
Ireland 11%
Great Britain 10%
Scandinavia 8%
Iberian Peninsula 7%
Italy/Greece 6%
Low Confidence Region
Europe East 1%
European Jewish < 1%
West Asia 2%
Low Confidence Region
Caucasus 2%


People with Germanic ancestry rarely get reasonable AncestryDNA results. I don't think there is a company that really does a good job with that ethnic type. However, I don't think Ancestry here is entirely wrong, there is common genetic ground between all of these NW European areas, and a recent study has just shown that this common ground goes deeper than we once thought it did.

Do you by chance any links, or a name for the study yo a referring to? The wanna-be anthropologist inside me is fascinated.

Ron from PA
05-26-2017, 03:01 AM
My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.

sktibo
05-26-2017, 03:20 AM
My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.

more proof that 23andme is the gold standard for accuracy IMO.

Hayden
05-26-2017, 04:39 AM
My ancestry is PA colonial. I estimate 60-65% PA Dutch. Ancestry gives me 43% Britain 21% Europe West. 23andMe gives me 48.8% German with 28.8% broadly NW Euro. 23 and most Gedmatch calculators find me a mainly SW German. But several Ancestry, FTDNA, Tribecode, DNA tribes and the new PuntDNL calculator see me as British/English.

Thank you, that is very insightful.

geebee
05-26-2017, 07:00 AM
Strictly speaking, neither Ancestry nor 23andMe actually has a "German" category. Ancestry has "Europe West", and 23andMe has "French & German". Europe West is arguably the better name, since it's more inclusive.

So, what does Ancestry actually say about this Europe West category? Well, first they tell us that this component is "primarily found in Belgium, France, Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein".

However, something people often seem to miss is that Ancestry doesn't say that this component is only located in these places. They note that it's "also found in England, Denmark, Italy, Slovenia, Czech Republic".

Now, from my paper trail I know that I should have inherited about 1/4 Pennsylvania German and 1/4 Scots-Irish from my father, since he was pretty much half-and-half. From my mother, I should have inherited close to 1/4 British (more English); 1/8 Minorcan Spanish; 1/16 Alsatian; and varying small amounts of French, Irish, Swiss, and Native American.

So what I actually have at Ancestry is 44% Europe West, 25% Great Britain, 9% Ireland, 9% Iberian Peninsula, and numerous "trace" or "low confidence" results.

In Europe, these include: 3% Scandinavia (which is likely actually German or British, or both); 2% Italy/Greece (could be part of the Minorcan ancestry); less than 1% European Jewish; and less than 1% Finland/Northwest Russia.

I also have trace or low confidence regions in Asia, America, and West Asia: 1% Asia Central and less than 1% Asia South; 1% Native American; and 3% Caucasus.

Contrasting this with 23andMe, I have 90.7% Northwestern European -- 43.5% British & Irish; 22.4% French & German; 0.4% Finnish; and 24.4% "broadly" Northwestern European.

I have only 5.1% Southern European, which seems somewhat lower than I think it should be. That's in the form of just 1.9% Iberian, 0.8% Italian, and 2.3% "broadly" Southern European.

Then I have 2.0% East Asian & Native American, which is actually all just Native American.

So, which do I think is more reasonable? Well, my British & Irish percentage at 23andMe probably isn't too far off. It's a bit higher than Ancestry's 25% British + 9% Irish = 34%. On the other hand, 23andMe's French & German seems quite low, and their Southern European component (especially the Iberian) also seems low.

At the same time, though, I appreciate very much being able to see the location of the actual segments. It makes it much easier to compare to family members. Just getting a percentage is pretty much unverifiable, whereas I can actually trace a few of my segments at 23andMe to specific ancestors.

For example, there's a segment on chromosome 15 that 23andMe identifies as Native American, and it's in the same location as a segment I share with another person at 23andMe. The segment is also identified as Native American for him, and we happen to have the same Native American ancestor: Magdalaine Pany Baudreau. Actually, Magdalaine's mother was Native American; her father was a French Canadian transplant to French Louisiana.

This doesn't prove that the segment came from Magdalaine (or her mother), but it's certainly possible. I know that at Ancestry, I'm in more than one DNA Circle connected to granddaughters of Magdalaine. Most of the members of the circles show at least trace amounts of Native American ancestry, and some actually show more.

(Most members of these circles have multiple paths back to Magdalaine. I only have two, that I know of.)

EDIT: I might also mention that "Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania" is one of my four Genetic Communities. My "membership confidence" is rated as "likely" (60%). Interestingly, most of the "names associated with this community" happen to be German.

Edward J
05-26-2017, 01:10 PM
My father is largely of PA colonial ancestry lots of PA Dutch, but lots of intermarriage with colonial Irish/Scots/English. It muddies the water a bit that his only two more recent immigrant ancestors were from England and Germany.
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razyn
05-26-2017, 02:23 PM
The newish company LivingDNA is partnering with some German genealogical group to attempt a project there similar to the POBI database. It should eventually be helpful for those of us with a lot of German ancestry from colonial times. If ethnicity is the primary concern, Ancestry's autosomal database works better for more recent immigrants, from Germany or elsewhere.
https://www.livingdna.com/en-gb/blog/254/new-living-dna-project-aims-map-germany-s-genetic-history?utm_content=bufferb97f0&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

geebee
05-26-2017, 05:35 PM
Focusing just on my Y line, the first two generations seem to have married women who were exclusively of German ancestry. This includes the immigrant himself, Johan Buchhammer, who arrived at Philadelphia in 1749 and settled in what was to become Montgomery County.

Johan's son Jacob migrated first to Berks County, where he married Anna Maria -- who was likewise exclusively of German origin. By 1830, Jacob and two or more sons were living in Bedford County. One of these sons, my 3rd great grandfather John Bookhamer, moved to Huntingdon County.

John married Susannah Gregg, who was half Scots-Irish (her mother was of German origin). Their son George Washington Bookhammer was the first of several of that name in my family. George married Clarissa White, who was of Scots-Irish origin; and their first son -- also named George Washington -- married Alma Mogle.

George and Alma were my father's paternal grandparents. While Alma carried a German surname, her mother was named Alfaretta Keith -- and was of Scottish or Scots-Irish origin. Their son Wilson -- my grandfather -- married a woman whose surname was Yingling, although she too had both German and Scots-Irish ancestry.

It's this sort of thing that makes 23andMe very much mistaken in my ancestry timeline. On the basis of my 43.5% British & Irish component, they tell me that I


... most likely had a parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent who was 100% British & Irish. This person was likely born between 1870 and 1930.

As you can see, at least on my surname line there's been admixture in all of the generations they mention as possibly 100%. My father's other lines, as far as I've been able to tell, don't seem very different from this.

Ironically, because my Iberian percentage is so low (less than 2%, with only a little additional Southern European), the closest they tell me my 100% Iberian ancestor could have been is a third great grandparent -- and possibly even a 4th, 5th, or 6th great grandparent.

In fact, both of my maternal grandmother's grandfathers were immigrants from the Spanish island of Minorca. These were 2nd great grandfathers to me. And in both cases, I know their families lived in Minorca for many generations.

I think part of the problem is that not even all persons who are genuinely "100%" of a certain ancestry are going to show that way. That's because these labels are typically applied to entire countries, and what's being labeled may actually just be a component found within that country. It may be typical for people who live there, but not necessarily exclusive.

In fact, you can see this very well at Ancestry. My largest component there was Europe West, at 44%. This is the component that probably is most similar to 23andMe's French & German -- although 23andMe only gives me 22.4% of this.

If you click on the label, Europe West, and then "see details", you'll see a page with a lot of explanatory material for the category. At the top of the page are two tabs, "Region History" and "Genetic Diversity". You'll be in the "Region History" tab already, so click on the "Genetic Diversity" tab.

Once you do that, you'll see several graphics and explanatory material. The first graphic shows how you compare to a "typical native" of the region. For Europe West, I again see that I have 44% of this component -- which to me says I'm basically half. Only, I also see that the "typical native" of Europe West doesn't actually have much more than that: just 48%.

In fact, out of their "416 DNA samples from individuals who are from the Europe West region and whose family history suggests they have a long history in the Europe West region", there were folks who actually scored 0 in the Europe West category.

Now, this might lead a person to conclude that these folks aren't really part of Europe West. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the Europe West component doesn't fully encompass all ancestry of natives of the region, but only some of the ancestry. And, of course, for some it will be all of their ancestry, though for most it will be between "nothing" and "all".

The last thing I'll mention is that all of these ancestral categories have been developed using folks living in the region today. They also consider whether the ancestors are from the same region, but I'm not sure they necessarily go back much further than grandparents.

However, if you have colonial American ancestry, you're talking about people a lot further removed than just grandparents. So here's my question: for those of us with, say, "Pennsylvania Dutch" ancestry, do we really know how they would score in a component like Europe West, relative to modern inhabitants of the region?

My guess is that they'd score about the same -- but that actually means they'd have different scores, and only some of them would wind up with "100%". Most would not, but would get something closer to the 48% "typical natives" score today. Some might get 0, which would not mean they weren't really from that region. It would simply mean they had little of whatever the main component is, of most persons from the region.

Also remember, Ancestry is looking at the entire region. There might well be "pockets" within the region in which the ancestry is not typical for the region as a whole. That doesn't mean the folks living there are really from somewhere else; it just means they probably tended to intermarry within their local community, and did not blend much with others from the larger region.

Hayden
05-26-2017, 11:54 PM
I might also mention that "Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania" is one of my four Genetic Communities. My "membership confidence" is rated as "likely" (60%). Interestingly, most of the "names associated with this community" happen to be German.

I was a little surprised to see the overwhelmingly amount of German surnames too. William Penn really did a good job of recruiting farmers along the Rhein. I think Mennonites, like those in emmental’s family in Germantown were the first to immigrate. And then they poured in. Most of the immigration to PA (and Country) from other Countries came in the decades after the revolution. Pre Revolution PA was mostly filled with Palatines, and people from the British Isles, (a lot of them being Quakers, like Penn.) Some Dutch too, though smaller numbers from very early immigration when Pa was still west New Jersey.


In fact, out of their "416 DNA samples from individuals who are from the Europe West region and whose family history suggests they have a long history in the Europe West region", there were folks who actually scored 0 in the Europe West category.

Now, this might lead a person to conclude that these folks aren't really part of Europe West. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the Europe West component doesn't fully encompass all ancestry of natives of the region, but only some of the ancestry. And, of course, for some it will be all of their ancestry, though for most it will be between "nothing" and "all".

The last thing I'll mention is that all of these ancestral categories have been developed using folks living in the region today. They also consider whether the ancestors are from the same region, but I'm not sure they necessarily go back much further than grandparents.

However, if you have colonial American ancestry, you're talking about people a lot further removed than just grandparents. So here's my question: for those of us with, say, "Pennsylvania Dutch" ancestry, do we really know how they would score in a component like Europe West, relative to modern inhabitants of the region?

My guess is that they'd score about the same -- but that actually means they'd have different scores, and only some of them would wind up with "100%". Most would not, but would get something closer to the 48% "typical natives" score today. Some might get 0, which would not mean they weren't really from that region. It would simply mean they had little of whatever the main component is, of most persons from the region.

Also remember, Ancestry is looking at the entire region. There might well be "pockets" within the region in which the ancestry is not typical for the region as a whole. That doesn't mean the folks living there are really from somewhere else; it just means they probably tended to intermarry within their local community, and did not blend much with others from the larger region.

These are very good points.


My father is largely of PA colonial ancestry lots of PA Dutch, but lots of intermarriage with colonial Irish/Scots/English. It muddies the water a bit that his only two more recent immigrant ancestors were from England and Germany.
16300

Thanks for sharing your results!


The newish company LivingDNA is partnering with some German genealogical group to attempt a project there similar to the POBI database. It should eventually be helpful for those of us with a lot of German ancestry from colonial times. If ethnicity is the primary concern, Ancestry's autosomal database works better for more recent immigrants, from Germany or elsewhere.


That is really exciting to know.

I am curious if there was an big or small impact from living along the Rhein, from the Roman Empire for example. Also how much an Impact the 30 years war had, since it is claimed many towns were completely replaced with foreigners. My Lawall ancestors (French Huguenots) moved from France to Erbes-Büdesheim for example.



Erbes-Büdesheim:
“In the time of the Thirty Years' War it was likely completely emptied of people. After this great war, many Reformed, but also some Catholic, foreigners were brought in from Switzerland, the Netherlands, Belgium and the Lower Rhine region under Charles I Louis, Elector Palatine’s population policies.” ~wikipedia

I don’t know what will be able to be gleamed, really, but I will be very interested to see what they discover and to check out what sort of results people get back. Sure, I am interested in part because of family history, but I am also curious about the region in general. It will be nice to compare results to historical context.

Stephen1986
05-27-2017, 12:06 AM
It would be interesting to see if some of my Canadian cousins from southern Ontario have done any of the main tests, as they are a mixture of British/Irish plus Mennonites who were originally from Pennsylvania but moved to southern Ontario. I think they were originally Swiss rather than German, though.

Hayden
05-27-2017, 12:17 AM
It would be interesting to see if some of my Canadian cousins from southern Ontario have done any of the main tests, as they are a mixture of British/Irish plus Mennonites who were originally from Pennsylvania but moved to southern Ontario. I think they were originally Swiss rather than German, though.

Swiss ancestry is very common in the PA Dutch communities, so I wouldn't expect it to be wildly uncharacteristic. Not only just from our ancestors that came directly from Switzerland, but also because of the Thirty Year War (1618-1648), many of the people that immigrated from the Rhineland-Palatinate already had Swiss ancestry. At least to my understanding.

C J Wyatt III
05-27-2017, 01:24 AM
It would be interesting to see if some of my Canadian cousins from southern Ontario have done any of the main tests, as they are a mixture of British/Irish plus Mennonites who were originally from Pennsylvania but moved to southern Ontario. I think they were originally Swiss rather than German, though.

Do you know anything about ones who went from Lancaster Pa to Ft. Erie Ontario? I have a Christian Hershey in my tree who did that.

Jack Wyatt

Stephen1986
05-27-2017, 01:32 AM
Do you know anything about ones who went from Lancaster Pa to Ft. Erie Ontario? I have a Christian Hershey in my tree who did that.

Jack Wyatt

I don't, sorry, I only know of a few of the earlier Pennsylvania to Ontario individuals and they were all Mennonites as far as I know.

C J Wyatt III
05-27-2017, 01:47 AM
I don't, sorry, I only know of a few of the earlier Pennsylvania to Ontario individuals and they were all Mennonites as far as I know.

Christian Hershey was a Mennonite. Apparently he had a cousin, who was another Christian Hershey and that one is buried at Ft. Erie. I think mine went to Ft. Erie with his second wife and left a daughter there (my GG gm), but came back to Lancaster and died there.

Jack

Baltimore1937
05-28-2017, 06:28 AM
On my maternal side, I have Pennsylvania German and real Dutch, along with Anglo input. One name, Cline, could be derived from PA German, or from Dutch. I've seen an alternate spelling of Kleyn in Ancestry trees, which looks rather Dutch.

Dewsloth
05-28-2017, 06:36 AM
i have one line that starts across the border from PA in Harpers Ferry, with the surname "Fertig" -- might be German / Penn Dutch?

Hayden
05-28-2017, 11:42 PM
On my maternal side, I have Pennsylvania German and real Dutch, along with Anglo input. One name, Cline, could be derived from PA German, or from Dutch. I've seen an alternate spelling of Kleyn in Ancestry trees, which looks rather Dutch.

It is pretty tough to discern based on spelling, especially with non-Anglo names. In part because some families purposely chose to use a more anglo version of their last name. Examples of this in my own family are Maurer to Mowery, Schneider to Snyder, Vögli to Fegley, Schlosser to Slusser.

But I have even more examples of name changes in my family from result of how a English person(s) spelled the name, they thought they heard, on official documents. This was most common among ancestors and cousins that moved to areas that were no longer German dominated. In PA dutch country the census takers, etcetera, were familiar with these names. When they move away from the area I often see a different spelling of the name on the paper trail, sometimes several. Rabenold became Robinholt, and sometimes was written as Robinhood, and Drach became Traugh. Less extreme examples are Reider to Rider, Reichard to Richard, and Defrehn to Defrain and yes even distant cousins with Klein to Cline.

Klein is a common surname in the region. The most common way I see that name spelled is Klein in PA Dutch county, that is also the German word for small. Odds are that was likely the original way your Cline’s spelled their name, but I don’t want to presume.


i have one line that starts across the border from PA in Harpers Ferry, with the surname "Fertig" -- might be German / Penn Dutch?

The family could have PA Dutch roots, since it is a German surname. It all depends if they came originally to colonial Pennsylvania. I think it is a good rule of thumb to at least check out southeastern pa for german ancestors if you can’t find immigration records for them in the 1800’s and are sure they didn’t immigrate more recently.

Dewsloth
05-29-2017, 12:05 AM
The family could have PA Dutch roots, since it is a German surname. It all depends if they came originally to colonial Pennsylvania. I think it is a good rule of thumb to at least check out southeastern pa for german ancestors if you can’t find immigration records for them in the 1800’s and are sure they didn’t immigrate more recently.

Thanks! I have found Fertigs across the border in PA in the right time frame. My ancestor, Jacob Fertig b~1809 at Harpers Ferry is probably a family member, but I haven't found hard evidence on his parents.

geebee
05-29-2017, 12:49 AM
It is pretty tough to discern based on spelling, especially with non-Anglo names. In part because some families purposely chose to use a more anglo version of their last name. Examples of this in my own family are Maurer to Mowery, Schneider to Snyder, Vögli to Fegley, Schlosser to Slusser.

But I have even more examples of name changes in my family from result of how a English person(s) spelled the name, they thought they heard, on official documents. This was most common among ancestors and cousins that moved to areas that were no longer German dominated. In PA dutch country the census takers, etcetera, were familiar with these names. When they move away from the area I often see a different spelling of the name on the paper trail, sometimes several. Rabenold became Robinholt, and sometimes was written as Robinhood, and Drach became Traugh. Less extreme examples are Reider to Rider, Reichard to Richard, and Defrehn to Defrain and yes even distant cousins with Klein to Cline.

Klein is a common surname in the region. The most common way I see that name spelled is Klein in PA Dutch county, that is also the German word for small. Odds are that was likely the original way your Cline’s spelled their name, but I don’t want to presume.



The family could have PA Dutch roots, since it is a German surname. It all depends if they came originally to colonial Pennsylvania. I think it is a good rule of thumb to at least check out southeastern pa for german ancestors if you can’t find immigration records for them in the 1800’s and are sure they didn’t immigrate more recently.

Another thing to keep in mind is that different regions of Germany often used different spellings for names -- both first and last. In addition to that, the spelling in use by the immigrant might not match the one in use in the place he or she immigrated from, but maybe the place-of-origin of the name.

And just as standardized spellings are a relatively recent phenomenon in English -- post colonial, anyway -- it's also recent in a number of other languages.

If you look at a list of the top most common surnames in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_most_common_surnames_in_Germany), one thing you'll see is that many of the top names are regional variants of the same name.

This is likely one of the reasons you don't see any German surnames in the top 100 U.S. surnames. This, and how many variations were introduced here.

For example, my surname has been spelled Buchhammer, Buchhamer, Buchamer, Buchheimer, Buckammer, Buckheimer, Buckhimer, Bochamer, Bookhammer, Bookhamer, Bookheimer, and Boughamer -- and this is not an exhaustive list.

The #1 surname in Germany is Müller, but the #2 name -- Schmidt -- would displace it if all variations were included: Schmitt is #26; Schmitz is #28; and Schmid is #32. Contrast this with the U.S., where there is only a single variant of Smith even in the top 1000 surnames.

(While you're looking for German names, consider other letters that could also be used even to begin the name. For example, Buchheim and Puchheim are basically the same name.)

EDIT: Among the variants of my surname, a spelling like "Boughamer" can be especially challenging. You can tell just by looking at the name whether the "Bough" should sound more or less like "Book", except perhaps with the hard "g" sound replacing the "k"; of whether it should rhyme with "cow". Part of the confusion is that one of the other significant PA colonial ancestries was Scotsh-Irish, and the Irish grapheme "gh" has a very similar sound to the German grapheme "ch".

2nd EDIT: As I was remembering, the Vietnamese name Nguyen is actually the 57th most-common surname in the U.S. Clearly, there are not more Vietnamese Americans than German Americans.

3rd EDIT: As I understand it, the idea that the English misheard "Deutsch" or "Deitsch" for "Dutch" is a myth -- not that I think anyone said it here. "Dutch" was the general English term for all the inhabits of a region that included both the low countries and what is now Germany.

When it was necessary to make a distinction, and English speaker could use the term "Low Dutch" for the people we now consider the "real" Dutch -- the inhabitants of the Netherlands. Germans were "High Dutch". This was based on the comparative elevations of the two regions. http://blog.dictionary.com/demonym/

Hayden
05-29-2017, 12:54 AM
Thanks! I have found Fertigs across the border in PA in the right time frame. My ancestor, Jacob Fertig b~1809 at Harpers Ferry is probably a family member, but I haven't found hard evidence on his parents.

Great, I am glad you may of found a lead. Finding proof of parentage can be pretty tricky, it is so much easier when they don't move around so much. Maybe you'll have more luck after doing research on a few of the Fertig families in area. Google searching looking for PA county histories and a surname can sometimes help too. Good luck, I hope I haven't lead completely astray, lol.

Hayden
05-29-2017, 01:03 AM
Another thing to keep in mind is that different regions of Germany often used different spellings for names -- both first and last -- and a spelling might not even match the region a person immigrated from, but could match a region that family was from even earlier.

And just as standardized spellings are a relatively recent phenomenon in English -- post colonial, anyway -- it's also recent in a number of other languages.

As an aside, the many different German spellings of the same surname -- compounded by different Anglicizations of the same name -- is probably one of the reasons you don't see any German surnames in the top 100 U.S. surnames. It doesn't reflect the percentage of German Americans, just how many variations there be.

For example, my surname has been spelled Buchhammer, Buchhamer, Buchamer, Buchheimer, Buckammer, Buckheimer, Buckhimer, Bochamer, Bookhammer, Bookhamer, Bookheimer, and Boughamer -- and this is not an exhaustive list.

The #1 surname in Germany is Müller, but the #2 name -- Schmidt -- would displace it if all variations were included: Schmitt is #26; Schmitz is #28; and Schmid is #32. Contrast this with the U.S., where there is only a single variant of Smith even in the top 1000 surnames.

(While you're looking for German names, consider other letters that could also be used even to begin the name. For example, Buchheim and Puchheim are basically the same name.)

EDIT: Among the variants of my surname, a spelling like "Boughamer" can be especially challenging. You can tell just by looking at the name whether the "Bough" should sound more or less like "Book", except perhaps with the hard "g" sound replacing the "k"; of whether it should rhyme with "cow". Part of the confusion is that one of the other significant PA colonial ancestries was Scotsh-Irish, and the Irish grapheme "gh" has a very similar sound to the German grapheme "ch".

These are all great points.

And just to add on, it is true even names like Snyder which, often, were originally Schneider in America, did also exist, (in some cases) as Snyder in Germany and the Netherlands as an example.

I also see Germans (PA Dutch anyway) use names like Mertz, Martz, or Meck, Mack (could be a result of dropping a umlaut "ea") almost interchangeably. Even on headstones of members of the same family.

geebee
05-29-2017, 01:59 AM
Yeah, I had an uncle who used to say that our more distant cousins who spelled "Bookhammer" with just one "m" were, um, "orthographically challenged". (My uncle said it in different words.) After all, everybody knows "hammer" has two m's.

But of course the name has no connection to hammers. It also has no direct connection to books. Buch is the German equivalent of book, of course, but the connection is really to "Buche", which is a beech tree.

"Hammer" is the equivalent in the Austro-Bavarian dialect to the "Heimer" of Standard German. "Heim" means "home", and "-er" (just as in English) means "one who is from that place". (Like a New Yorker.)

So basically, Buchhammer would have been used for a person from Buchham -- or as it would be spelled now, from Buchheim. There happen to be multiple places by that name in modern Germany, plus at least one more in Austria.

Just to complicate things a bit further, while the name doesn't have an umlaut over the u in Germany, I've once or twice seen it spelled that way in older U.S./colonial records.

And to get back to Müller -- which can also spelled as Möller -- sometimes you see it spelled with the umlaut simply dropped, so Muller or Moller. Other times it becomes Mueller or Mohler. And still other times it simply becomes Miller.

But, in Germany that last one is also a variant you see. So it's possible that a German family named Miller didn't undergo an Americanization of their surname, but used the same spelling even in Germany. Of course .. there were also those whose surname in the "Old Country" was spelled according to wherever they happened to live at the time.

Dewsloth
05-29-2017, 04:36 AM
Speaking of "old county" name variations, my Y-line german ancestors decided they wanted to be distinguished from another family with an identical surname so they changed their last letter from "i" to "y" about 150 years ago. OTOH, i'm not even sure if the "i" was just a leftover patronymic latinization by a priest somewhere writing the surname in the 1600s or so.

Edward J
05-29-2017, 01:43 PM
The changes in spelling when looking at PA German lines can be maddening! I have seen mine (potentially) as Schmehl, Schemel, Smael, Schmall, Schnell, Schmale, and the list goes on. Makes it difficult when trying to find German/Prussian Records.

One my lines (Deibler), had the following variations: Daubenbiss, Debelbesin, Debelbiss, Deivilbiss, Deubelbiss, Deubelbeiss, Deufelbeiss, Dewelbiss, Diebelbiss, Divel, Divelbiss, Divilbiss, Teubel, Teubelbiss, Teufel, Teuffel, Teufelbess, Teuffelbeß, Teuffelbeß, Teuffelbiss.

razyn
05-29-2017, 02:18 PM
i have one line that starts across the border from PA in Harpers Ferry
The border, in that case, is the state of Maryland. Admittedly, it's a small and peculiarly shaped state, looks more like a congressional district in the deep south, but anyway it's a state. Cross the Potomac at Harper's Ferry, PA is still a right smart piece. Possibly, teeming with Fertigs.

Dewsloth
05-29-2017, 03:04 PM
The border, in that case, is the state of Maryland. Admittedly, it's a small and peculiarly shaped state, looks more like a congressional district in the deep south, but anyway it's a state. Cross the Potomac at Harper's Ferry, PA is still a right smart piece. Possibly, teeming with Fertigs.

Good point. Harpers Ferry is about 50 miles south of Gettysburg. And "Jacob Fertig" might as well be "John Smith" of that area. For all I know, this may be his father:

John Fertig
Birth: Sep. 6, 1762
Chester County
Pennsylvania, USA
Death: Mar. 31, 1840
Luzerne County
Pennsylvania, USA

A death notice appeared in Die Stimme de Volks, a German language newspaper printed at Orwigsburg:

"31 March 1840 Sugarloaf Twp., Luzerne County - John Fertig one-time inhabitant of Union Township, Schuylkill County served in the Revolutionary War, was an honoured citizen and treasured by all who knew him. April 1 his bones were laid to rest at the cemetery at Frieden's Church [now Trinity Black Creek Twp.]. May his ashes rest in peace."

John is among Captain Beatty's Company in the second Battalion of Chester County Militia Commanded by Col. Thomas Bull who were ordered on an immediate tour of duty on September 24, 1781. See Publications of the Pennsylvania Archives, Fifth Series, Volume 5, page 542.

He married Martaretha Ache and they had the following children:

1. Henry Furtig b 21 May 1786
2. Sarah Furtig Furman b 1790
3. John Furtig
4. Jacob Furtig


Family links:
Parents:
Hans Johannes John Fertig (1736 - 1831)

Hayden
05-29-2017, 05:50 PM
Good point. Harpers Ferry is about 50 miles south of Gettysburg. And "Jacob Fertig" might as well be "John Smith" of that area. For all I know, this may be his father:

When I did a quick search yesterday, I also zeroed in on the Fertig family in Chester county as good possibility. If the number of family trees with Hans Johannes John Fertig on ancestry.com is any indication, it sure seems like he had a lot of descendants, or people that at least have reason to think they are related. I am sure there are other possibilities to consider, but I do think they are worthwhile to investigate, as you have.

Hayden
05-29-2017, 06:37 PM
Since I think I can post images now I thought I would post the comparisons of my families FTDNA MyOrigins to Ancestry's Ethnicity Estimate. My father actually had his DNA tested with them, My mother's and my own are just the result from uploading our raw DNA files. I forgot all about the FTDNA results until this comment from emmental reminded me.


Most of the calculators on GED Match list me as North Atlantic of some type. The original results from my FTDNA My Origins was mostly Scandinavian. I was pleased when I heard they were updating My Origins. I was disheartened to see the new results listed as 71% British Isles and 27% Southeast Europe. Can't wait to see what the next update will bring.

My dad also originally had Scandinavian as his highest result, I think it was only around 30% though. Here is his results after their update compared with ancestry.

Dad's

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4203/34069098613_2013e2991d_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4244/34808752232_3e3995ab32_b.jpg
The high Iberian is at least is pretty consistent.


Mom's

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4226/34716526462_e8bca57f66_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4223/34808753112_e0634cda9a_b.jpg


Mine

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4270/34129916264_1a21f977ee_z.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4252/34840594821_b6a09b6ede_b.jpg
This was just funny.


I look forward to getting tested with Living DNA after they complete their German DNA Research Project, I will at least get better understanding about my parents haplogroups. My father just has an estimation for his Y, J-M172.

Edward J
05-29-2017, 07:19 PM
Since I think I can post images now I thought I would post the comparisons of my families FTDNA MyOrigins to Ancestry's Ethnicity Estimate. My father actually had his DNA tested with them, My mother's and my own are just the result from uploading our raw DNA files. I forgot all about the FTDNA results until this comment from emmental reminded me.



My dad also originally had Scandinavian as his highest result, I think it was only around 30% though. Here is his results after their update compared with ancestry.

Dad's

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4203/34069098613_2013e2991d_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4244/34808752232_3e3995ab32_b.jpg
The high Iberian is at least is pretty consistent.


Mom's

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4226/34716526462_e8bca57f66_b.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4223/34808753112_e0634cda9a_b.jpg


Mine

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4270/34129916264_1a21f977ee_z.jpg
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4252/34840594821_b6a09b6ede_b.jpg
This was just funny.


I look forward to getting tested with Living DNA after they complete their German DNA Research Project, I will at least get better understanding about my parents haplogroups. My father just has an estimation for his Y, J-M172.

Did you have STRs tested at FTDNA? We are J2 PA Dutch as well, which is a pretty small group at the moment.

Dewsloth
05-29-2017, 08:02 PM
When I did a quick search yesterday, I also zeroed in on the Fertig family in Chester county as good possibility. If the number of family trees with Hans Johannes John Fertig on ancestry.com is any indication, it sure seems like he had a lot of descendants, or people that at least have reason to think they are related. I am sure there are other possibilities to consider, but I do think they are worthwhile to investigate, as you have.

Much appreciated. :)
This link just about made my head explode (click if you dare, welcome to the rabbit hole):
http://www.fertich.org/fertig.john.chester.co.1.htm

Hayden
05-29-2017, 09:22 PM
Did you have STRs tested at FTDNA? We are J2 PA Dutch as well, which is a pretty small group at the moment.

Yes actually, and I don’t mind sharing. My father has already provided information to public YDNA projects.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4199/34975734675_e8e23a9782_b.jpg
This is one of the public projects. Him and his super distant cousin are the Simon Schneider line.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/schneider?iframe=yresults

It does seem pretty rare in the region of Europe West, definitely not what we expected. When my fathers distant cousin in California got his Y-Dna tested in the late 90's (Early days with Nat Geo, I believe) they said he likely wasn't descended from the paternal line he thought he was. Luckily, when my dad found out about his side of the family, and vise versa they proved both their lines back to their first common ancestor in the Rhineland-Paletinate in the 1600s. Only took about 20 years...


Much appreciated. :)
This link just about made my head explode (click if you dare, welcome to the rabbit hole):
http://www.fertich.org/fertig.john.chester.co.1.htm

Holy… Wow! That is just crazy that anyone found and put all of that together. Looks complicated, lol.

Edward J
05-29-2017, 11:02 PM
Yes actually, and I don’t mind sharing. My father has already provided information to public YDNA projects.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4199/34975734675_e8e23a9782_b.jpg
This is one of the public projects. Him and his super distant cousin are the Simon Schneider line.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/schneider?iframe=yresults

It does seem pretty rare in the region of Europe West, definitely not what we expected. When my fathers distant cousin in California got his Y-Dna tested in the late 90's (Early days with Nat Geo, I believe) they said he likely wasn't descended from the paternal line he thought he was. Luckily, when my dad found out about his side of the family, and vise versa they proved both their lines back to their first common ancestor in the Rhineland-Paletinate in the 1600s. Only took about 20 years...


R
Holy… Wow! That is just crazy that anyone found and put all of that together. Looks complicated, lol.

Great thanks!! You can see mine as the lone J2 in the Small project. https://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/small/results

GED match M143516 and M397644.

Ron from PA
06-02-2017, 12:12 PM
I sent a Ancestry sample to My Heritage to see what they would say. Came back 96% North West Euro, which while way inflated catches my PA Dutch as my top Ancestry, while Ancestry itself only gives me 21% Europe West.

Finn
05-28-2019, 06:43 PM
Hello, this is my first time posting instead of just lurking. I thought I would share some of my family results on the off chance someone other than myself might find them interesting. And hopefully to get some feedback on why the results may of came back the way they did. I am also curious to know if others who are of Pennsylvania Dutch descent or from in and around Rhineland-Palatinate in western Europe have had similar results or wildly different ones.

A bit of a quick background on PA Dutch curtsy of wikipedia.


My family tree information is pretty full. Thanks in large part to my dads Genealogy hobby, I have information on 247 direct ancestors on my fathers side and 214 on my mothers. Between my fathers work tracing back in time and Ancestry DNA’s cousin matching feature that has helped to confirm the various paper trials I can say my father is very Pennsylvania Dutch, in fact it looks as though he could well be 100%

So I was pretty confused when I got these results back from his DNA test:

95% European
27% Great Britain
20% Europe West
17% Iberian Peninsula
11% Scandinavia
8 % Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
6% Italy/Greece
5% Europe East
2% European Jewish
5% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 60% confidence
Settlers of the Susquehanna River Valley - 20% confidence

I didn’t expect it to come back 100% western European, far from it. I have a reasonable understanding of European history and I expected a wide variety of groups to be represented. But only 20% Europe West? And why so much British? Sure the English were largely decedents from the French and German so maybe it just classified based on the presumably close Genetic Distance? If that is the case, what explains the 8% Irish?

This was made all the more confusing after getting my mothers test results back.

98% European
61% Europe West
20% Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
5% Italy/Greece
4% Iberian Peninsula
2% European Jewish
2% Europe East
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
<1% Great Britain
2% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 95% confidence

My mother has 1/4 of a mixture of Welsh, Irish and English according to her family tree, and as much as 75% PA Dutch. Her results on their own were not that surprising. The Irish showed up about what was expected. Having less than 1% GB was a little odd at first, but then I realized all of her English ancestors I knew of were either on the welsh border like Herefordshire, or from the north, like Cheshire, Lancashire, and Yorkshire. That DNA could likely be lumped in with the Irish, Welsh, and Scottish. It was mainly odd in its stark contrast to my fathers. The 61% Europe West seems correct, but higher than expected given typical native average is only 48%. The oddest part to me was that all the Germanic ancestors on both sides of my family came from the same regions of Germany and western Europe in general. the only difference being that my mother had a pair of 4th Great-grandparents who came over from Prussia (Neuwied, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany) in 1860, instead of the early to mid 1700’s like the rest of our Western European ancestors.

When I uploaded the kits to GedMatch and ran a few tests, they didn’t look so different anymore.

Father's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 44.07
2. Baltic - 20.08
3. West_Med - 16.64
4. East_Med - 8.03
5. West_Asian - 7.53
6. Red_Sea - 1.32
7. Siberian - 0.89
8. South_Asian - 0.44
9. Oceanian - 0.35
10. Northeast_African - 0.24
11. Sub-Saharan - 0.23
12. Amerindian - 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. South_Dutch - 2.65
2. West_German - 3.07
3. French - 5.02
4. Southeast_English - 7.81
5. Southwest_English - 8.89
6. North_German - 9.68
7. Orcadian - 9.8
8. North_Dutch - 10.38
9. Danish - 10.56
10. Irish - 10.59
11. Austrian - 10.72
12. West_Scottish - 10.91
13. East_German - 12.54
14. Spanish_Cataluna - 12.58
15. Norwegian - 12.84
16. Swedish - 13.87
17. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon - 13.92
18. Spanish_Galicia - 13.94
19. Portuguese - 13.97
20. Spanish_Cantabria - 14.92

Mother's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 43.56
2. Baltic - 24.37
3. West_Med - 15.36
4. East_Med - 7.6
5. West_Asian - 6.28
6. East_Asian - 1.17
7. Red_Sea - 0.83
8. Sub-Saharan - 0.43
9. Amerindian - 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. West_German - 2.68
2. South_Dutch - 2.78
3. Southeast_English - 7.04
4. North_German - 7.05
5. Austrian - 7.62
6. French - 8.02
7. North_Dutch - 8.41
8. Danish - 8.46
9. Orcadian - 8.67
10. Southwest_English - 8.88
11. East_German - 9.04
12. Irish - 9.73
13. West_Scottish - 10.32
14. Norwegian - 10.44
15. Swedish - 10.8
16. Hungarian - 12.28
17. North_Swedish - 14.62
18. Spanish_Cataluna - 15.54
19. Serbian - 16.39
20. Spanish_Galicia - 16.63

So my father does cluster with the West German after all? If this is the case, whats going on with the Ancestry results?

Here are a list of my Father's direct ancestors surnames:
Angstadt
Breil
Breidegam
Braun
Brombacher
Brunner
Busch
Christ/Christmann
Derr
Dietrich
Drach
Ebbert
Erlander
Essig
Fegley/Vögli
Fies
Fischer
Frey/Frei
Gaertner/Gärtner
George/Georg
Haas
Hantz
Heffner
Hilbert
Holben
Kassel
Keller
Kistler
Klein
Kunkel
Kurtz
Lentz/Lenz
Leitheiser/Leithauser
Levan
Martz/Mertz
Maul
Meck/Mack
Moser/Musser
Moyer
Orstel/Borstel
Rausch
Reider
Ritter
Ruppert
Sassemanhausen
Schlockerman
Schmitt
Schneider
Schuster
Schwab
Steinbruch
Strauch
Wagner
Weber
Weiss
Weidner
Will
Zimmerman
Zode


And here are my Mother's direct ancestor surnames:

Adams
Buck
Bittenbender
Clingman
Cawley
Cox
Defrehn
Dewalt
Dieffenbauch
Diehl
Drach
Dugan
Ebbert
Engel
Faust
Fryman
Gearhart
George
Gilbert
Gross
Haeuser
Harter
Heller
Henry
Hertzel
Hess
Hoffman
Hutton
Keiper
Keller
Kneple
Lawall
Longfield
Longenberger
Lowe
Mason
Melick
Maurer/Mowery
Metzger
Miller
Naulin
Parr
Philips
Price
Prosser
Puberbach
Readler
Reese
Reichard
Reider
Richard
Robinholt/Rabenold
Schlosser
Schober
Schwin
Sell
Shuman
Smith
Springer
Tanner
Umstead
Van Hise
Walter
Weaver
Weber
Wenner
Young

Interesting story Hayden. My oldest ancestors with the same surname as I have were in the early 17th century among so called Groninger Oud Vlamingen, or Ukke Wallist, they were a very strict sect.

See:
https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Groningen_Old_Flemish_Mennonites

These ancestors were alderman the Ukke Wallists meetings were held in their barn (it's been attested in 1642). But being a strict group later generation left or had to leave this anabaptist communities (my family became in the generations after that sudden Franciscan Catholic). There seems to be Mennonites in Alexanderwohl in Kansas that still feel connected to the Groninger Oud Vlamingen.....http://alexanderwohl.org/about-us/#History

geebee
05-31-2019, 06:48 AM
Hello, this is my first time posting instead of just lurking. I thought I would share some of my family results on the off chance someone other than myself might find them interesting. And hopefully to get some feedback on why the results may of came back the way they did. I am also curious to know if others who are of Pennsylvania Dutch descent or from in and around Rhineland-Palatinate in western Europe have had similar results or wildly different ones.

A bit of a quick background on PA Dutch curtsy of wikipedia.


My family tree information is pretty full. Thanks in large part to my dads Genealogy hobby, I have information on 247 direct ancestors on my fathers side and 214 on my mothers. Between my fathers work tracing back in time and Ancestry DNA’s cousin matching feature that has helped to confirm the various paper trials I can say my father is very Pennsylvania Dutch, in fact it looks as though he could well be 100%

So I was pretty confused when I got these results back from his DNA test:

95% European
27% Great Britain
20% Europe West
17% Iberian Peninsula
11% Scandinavia
8 % Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
6% Italy/Greece
5% Europe East
2% European Jewish
5% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 60% confidence
Settlers of the Susquehanna River Valley - 20% confidence

I didn’t expect it to come back 100% western European, far from it. I have a reasonable understanding of European history and I expected a wide variety of groups to be represented. But only 20% Europe West? And why so much British? Sure the English were largely decedents from the French and German so maybe it just classified based on the presumably close Genetic Distance? If that is the case, what explains the 8% Irish?

This was made all the more confusing after getting my mothers test results back.

98% European
61% Europe West
20% Ireland
Low Confidence Regions
5% Italy/Greece
4% Iberian Peninsula
2% European Jewish
2% Europe East
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
<1% Great Britain
2% Caucasus

Genetic Communities™
Settlers of Colonial Pennsylvania - 95% confidence
Settlers of the Poconos & North Jersey - 95% confidence

My mother has 1/4 of a mixture of Welsh, Irish and English according to her family tree, and as much as 75% PA Dutch. Her results on their own were not that surprising. The Irish showed up about what was expected. Having less than 1% GB was a little odd at first, but then I realized all of her English ancestors I knew of were either on the welsh border like Herefordshire, or from the north, like Cheshire, Lancashire, and Yorkshire. That DNA could likely be lumped in with the Irish, Welsh, and Scottish. It was mainly odd in its stark contrast to my fathers. The 61% Europe West seems correct, but higher than expected given typical native average is only 48%. The oddest part to me was that all the Germanic ancestors on both sides of my family came from the same regions of Germany and western Europe in general. the only difference being that my mother had a pair of 4th Great-grandparents who came over from Prussia (Neuwied, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany) in 1860, instead of the early to mid 1700’s like the rest of our Western European ancestors.

When I uploaded the kits to GedMatch and ran a few tests, they didn’t look so different anymore.

Father's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 44.07
2. Baltic - 20.08
3. West_Med - 16.64
4. East_Med - 8.03
5. West_Asian - 7.53
6. Red_Sea - 1.32
7. Siberian - 0.89
8. South_Asian - 0.44
9. Oceanian - 0.35
10. Northeast_African - 0.24
11. Sub-Saharan - 0.23
12. Amerindian - 0.19

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. South_Dutch - 2.65
2. West_German - 3.07
3. French - 5.02
4. Southeast_English - 7.81
5. Southwest_English - 8.89
6. North_German - 9.68
7. Orcadian - 9.8
8. North_Dutch - 10.38
9. Danish - 10.56
10. Irish - 10.59
11. Austrian - 10.72
12. West_Scottish - 10.91
13. East_German - 12.54
14. Spanish_Cataluna - 12.58
15. Norwegian - 12.84
16. Swedish - 13.87
17. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon - 13.92
18. Spanish_Galicia - 13.94
19. Portuguese - 13.97
20. Spanish_Cantabria - 14.92

Mother's Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1. North_Atlantic - 43.56
2. Baltic - 24.37
3. West_Med - 15.36
4. East_Med - 7.6
5. West_Asian - 6.28
6. East_Asian - 1.17
7. Red_Sea - 0.83
8. Sub-Saharan - 0.43
9. Amerindian - 0.41

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1. West_German - 2.68
2. South_Dutch - 2.78
3. Southeast_English - 7.04
4. North_German - 7.05
5. Austrian - 7.62
6. French - 8.02
7. North_Dutch - 8.41
8. Danish - 8.46
9. Orcadian - 8.67
10. Southwest_English - 8.88
11. East_German - 9.04
12. Irish - 9.73
13. West_Scottish - 10.32
14. Norwegian - 10.44
15. Swedish - 10.8
16. Hungarian - 12.28
17. North_Swedish - 14.62
18. Spanish_Cataluna - 15.54
19. Serbian - 16.39
20. Spanish_Galicia - 16.63

So my father does cluster with the West German after all? If this is the case, whats going on with the Ancestry results?

Here are a list of my Father's direct ancestors surnames:
Angstadt
Breil
Breidegam
Braun
Brombacher
Brunner
Busch
Christ/Christmann
Derr
Dietrich
Drach
Ebbert
Erlander
Essig
Fegley/Vögli
Fies
Fischer
Frey/Frei
Gaertner/Gärtner
George/Georg
Haas
Hantz
Heffner
Hilbert
Holben
Kassel
Keller
Kistler
Klein
Kunkel
Kurtz
Lentz/Lenz
Leitheiser/Leithauser
Levan
Martz/Mertz
Maul
Meck/Mack
Moser/Musser
Moyer
Orstel/Borstel
Rausch
Reider
Ritter
Ruppert
Sassemanhausen
Schlockerman
Schmitt
Schneider
Schuster
Schwab
Steinbruch
Strauch
Wagner
Weber
Weiss
Weidner
Will
Zimmerman
Zode


And here are my Mother's direct ancestor surnames:

Adams
Buck
Bittenbender
Clingman
Cawley
Cox
Defrehn
Dewalt
Dieffenbauch
Diehl
Drach
Dugan
Ebbert
Engel
Faust
Fryman
Gearhart
George
Gilbert
Gross
Haeuser
Harter
Heller
Henry
Hertzel
Hess
Hoffman
Hutton
Keiper
Keller
Kneple
Lawall
Longfield
Longenberger
Lowe
Mason
Melick
Maurer/Mowery
Metzger
Miller
Naulin
Parr
Philips
Price
Prosser
Puberbach
Readler
Reese
Reichard
Reider
Richard
Robinholt/Rabenold
Schlosser
Schober
Schwin
Sell
Shuman
Smith
Springer
Tanner
Umstead
Van Hise
Walter
Weaver
Weber
Wenner
Young

Well, a lot has happened since this post. If anything, the situation has gotten even worse for many of us with significant colonial-era German ancestry.

Pre-2018 update, my largest component was Europe West at 44%. This was followed by Great Britain at 25%, Ireland at 9%, and Iberian Peninsula at 9%. I also had -- of course -- various trace ancestries. Of these, the only one that actually bears mentioning is Native American, at just 1%.

Now for comparison purposes, here is what my paper trail percentages should be (calculated in most cases out to 3rd great grandparents or further):


German: 34.4%
Alsatian 6.2%
French 3.1%
Swiss 1.2%

If we take (Palatine) German, Alsatian, French, and Swiss together as part of "Europe West" we get 44.9%.

British & Irish (combined) 40.6%

Menorcan Spanish 12.5%

Native American 2.0%

So after the update, I have 80% England, Wales, and Northwestern Europe; 11% Ireland; 6% Germanic Europe; 2% Native American -- North, Central, South; and 1% Finland. ("Finland/Northwest Russia" did appear in the previous estimate, but at less than 1%.)

Here are the surnames of my 3rd great grandparents:


Bookhammer (immigrant ancestor's surname was Buchhammer)
Mogle
Carls
Fry
Shoenfelt
Clapper (appears twice)
Hetrick
Yingling
Woomer
Foutz

Gregg
White
Smith
Keith
Walker
Babcock
Mumford
Horner
Haywood
Muncy
Bowling
Sizemore
Collett
Ryan

Pons i Coll ("i" in Catalan is the same as "y" in Spanish)
Olivas
Canet
Manent

Reeb
Peter

Ladner

Note:

The surnames "White" and "Smith" could be virtually anything, but I've counted them as "British".

So, looking at the 10 names in the first list -- yes, there are 9 but remember that one appears twice -- these are basically German. The 14 names in the next list might be regarded as "British" except possibly for Ryan, which is Irish. However, the surnames "White" and "Smith" could actually be anything. And, the Ryan in my list was actually a mix of Irish, French, and Native American.

Reeb and Peter both came from Alsace-Lorraine, though they are basically also German names. So is Ladner, though my immigrant ancestor was actually German Swiss. My 3rd great grandmother by this surname was married to my Ryan 3rd great grandfather. She was also his 2nd cousin, and shared the same Native American ancestry and also some French ancestry.

My Bowling 3rd great grandmother and my Sizemore 3rd great grandfather were 1st cousins. I believe both surnames are of British origin, but these two ancestors were also descended from the same Native American ancestor.

While a few of my 3rd great grandparents were definitely already admixed, there really does not appear to have been much admixture overall prior to this generation. So, one would think that I ought to be seeing more than 6% Germanic Europe, but it's obvious that most of my German and related ancestry (Alsatian, Swiss) is being lumped in as part of England, Wales and Northwestern Europe.

Because of the inclusion of "Northwestern Europe" and considering the map of the region, this actually would make sense. The only problem is, as a practical matter Ancestry still insists on treating "England, Wales and Northwestern Europe" as being equivalent to the old category of "Great Britain". They actually characterized this category for me as having "increased" by 55%, to the current total of 80%. But it clearly is not simply an increase, but a blending of (some of) Great Britain and (most of) Europe West. Yet if you look at the "read more" for the new category, Ancestry talks about nothing but Great Britain.

Also, there is absolutely no accounting for my four Menorcan Spanish 3rd great grandparents. These four people represent half of my maternal grandmother's ancestry. Both of my grandmother's parents were half Menorcan, meaning that each would have had one complete set of chromosomes that were of Spanish origin. It is virtually impossible that my grandmother inherited her DNA almost exclusively from non-Spanish grandparents.

On paper, at least, this inheritance for me should be about 12.5%. Yet Ancestry shows none of it. I could understand if they showed it as French, given the history of the whole Catalan region of Spain -- including the island of Menorca. But as part of "England, Wales and Northwestern Europe"? No. Ancestry's old calculation of 9% "Iberian Peninsula" made a lot more sense.

So the bottom line is, Ancestry completely missed by (roughly) 1/8 Spanish ancestry, and is interpreting most of my colonial-era German and Swiss ancestry as something other than "Germanic Europe". Probably "Northwestern Europe" makes sense, but then they should stop pretending that this is somehow part of "British" ancestry. It isn't the result of British immigration to the continent, but of continental immigration to Great Britain.

This might seem like a little deal to those whose ancestry is almost entirely British, but less than half of my ancestry is British (even when British and Irish are treated as a combined category, since in my case it's very hard to distinguish them). More of my ancestry actually is from the old "Europe West" region -- 44 or 45% when taken together.

EDIT:

My "communities" include


"Pennsylvania Settlers" -- all of whom arrived in America during the colonial era; these are on my father's side

"Eastern Kentucky and Northwest Tennessee Settlers" -- mainly, if not exclusively, on my maternal grandfather's side

"Mid-Atlantic States Settlers" -- on both parents' sides

"Pennsylvania, Ohio, & Indiana Settlers" -- both parents' sides

I do not seem to have a genetic community associated with my maternal grandmother's side, even though I do have a lot of DNA matches on her side. This may be partly due to the fact that three of her grandparents were immigrants -- two from Menorca and one from Alsace-Lorraine. The fourth grandparent had roots in the region that date back to about 1700. (And of course, much earlier for the Native American part of her ancestry.)

Many of my cousins on this side would accordingly have a lot more ancestry from this region.

tomz
05-31-2019, 12:23 PM
Well, a lot has happened since this post. If anything, the situation has gotten even worse for many of us with significant colonial-era German ancestry.

Pre-2018 update, my largest component was Europe West at 44%. This was followed by Great Britain at 25%, Ireland at 9%, and Iberian Peninsula at 9%. I also had -- of course -- various trace ancestries. Of these, the only one that actually bears mentioning is Native American, at just 1%.

Now for comparison purposes, here is what my paper trail percentages should be (calculated in most cases out to 3rd great grandparents or further):


German: 34.4%
Alsatian 6.2%
French 3.1%
Swiss 1.2%

If we take (Palatine) German, Alsatian, French, and Swiss together as part of "Europe West" we get 44.9%.

British & Irish (combined) 40.6%

Menorcan Spanish 12.5%

Native American 2.0%

So after the update, I have 80% England, Wales, and Northwestern Europe; 11% Ireland; 6% Germanic Europe; 2% Native American -- North, Central, South; and 1% Finland. ("Finland/Northwest Russia" did appear in the previous estimate, but at less than 1%.)

Here are the surnames of my 3rd great grandparents:


Bookhammer (immigrant ancestor's surname was Buchhammer)
Mogle
Carls
Fry
Shoenfelt
Clapper (appears twice)
Hetrick
Yingling
Woomer
Foutz

Gregg
White
Smith
Keith
Walker
Babcock
Mumford
Horner
Haywood
Muncy
Bowling
Sizemore
Collett
Ryan

Pons i Coll ("i" in Catalan is the same as "y" in Spanish)
Olivas
Canet
Manent

Reeb
Peter

Ladner

Note:

The surnames "White" and "Smith" could be virtually anything, but I've counted them as "British".

So, looking at the 10 names in the first list -- yes, there are 9 but remember that one appears twice -- these are basically German. The 14 names in the next list might be regarded as "British" except possibly for Ryan, which is Irish. However, the surnames "White" and "Smith" could actually be anything. And, the Ryan in my list was actually a mix of Irish, French, and Native American.

Reeb and Peter both came from Alsace-Lorraine, though they are basically also German names. So is Ladner, though my immigrant ancestor was actually German Swiss. My 3rd great grandmother by this surname was married to my Ryan 3rd great grandfather. She was also his 2nd cousin, and shared the same Native American ancestry and also some French ancestry.

My Bowling 3rd great grandmother and my Sizemore 3rd great grandfather were 1st cousins. I believe both surnames are of British origin, but these two ancestors were also descended from the same Native American ancestor.

While a few of my 3rd great grandparents were definitely already admixed, there really does not appear to have been much admixture overall prior to this generation. So, one would think that I ought to be seeing more than 6% Germanic Europe, but it's obvious that most of my German and related ancestry (Alsatian, Swiss) is being lumped in as part of England, Wales and Northwestern Europe.

Because of the inclusion of "Northwestern Europe" and considering the map of the region, this actually would make sense. The only problem is, as a practical matter Ancestry still insists on treating "England, Wales and Northwestern Europe" as being equivalent to the old category of "Great Britain". They actually characterized this category for me as having "increased" by 55%, to the current total of 80%. But it clearly is not simply an increase, but a blending of (some of) Great Britain and (most of) Europe West. Yet if you look at the "read more" for the new category, Ancestry talks about nothing but Great Britain.

Also, there is absolutely no accounting for my four Menorcan Spanish 3rd great grandparents. These four people represent half of my maternal grandmother's ancestry. Both of my grandmother's parents were half Menorcan, meaning that each would have had one complete set of chromosomes that were of Spanish origin. It is virtually impossible that my grandmother inherited her DNA almost exclusively from non-Spanish grandparents.

On paper, at least, this inheritance for me should be about 12.5%. Yet Ancestry shows none of it. I could understand if they showed it as French, given the history of the whole Catalan region of Spain -- including the island of Menorca. But as part of "England, Wales and Northwestern Europe"? No. Ancestry's old calculation of 9% "Iberian Peninsula" made a lot more sense.

So the bottom line is, Ancestry completely missed by (roughly) 1/8 Spanish ancestry, and is interpreting most of my colonial-era German and Swiss ancestry as something other than "Germanic Europe". Probably "Northwestern Europe" makes sense, but then they should stop pretending that this is somehow part of "British" ancestry. It isn't the result of British immigration to the continent, but of continental immigration to Great Britain.

This might seem like a little deal to those whose ancestry is almost entirely British, but less than half of my ancestry is British (even when British and Irish are treated as a combined category, since in my case it's very hard to distinguish them). More of my ancestry actually is from the old "Europe West" region -- 44 or 45% when taken together.

EDIT:

My "communities" include


"Pennsylvania Settlers" -- all of whom arrived in America during the colonial era; these are on my father's side

"Eastern Kentucky and Northwest Tennessee Settlers" -- mainly, if not exclusively, on my maternal grandfather's side

"Mid-Atlantic States Settlers" -- on both parents' sides

"Pennsylvania, Ohio, & Indiana Settlers" -- both parents' sides

I do not seem to have a genetic community associated with my maternal grandmother's side, even though I do have a lot of DNA matches on her side. This may be partly due to the fact that three of her grandparents were immigrants -- two from Menorca and one from Alsace-Lorraine. The fourth grandparent had roots in the region that date back to about 1700. (And of course, much earlier for the Native American part of her ancestry.)

Many of my cousins on this side would accordingly have a lot more ancestry from this region.

I find their England, Wales/Northwestern European category a bit frustrating as well, and I feel, at this stage of the game they could have been more precise, and broken it down more.

Bollox79
05-31-2019, 02:27 PM
Hmm on my father's side (and especially his mother's side) I have a lot of Lutheran German and even some Mennonite ancestry (his whole side is from Pennsylvania - Lutheran German/Prussian and Scots-Irish mainly with some Mennonite) and I get as communities at Ancestry: Pennsylvania settlers which includes parts of Ohio and Northern Maryland and also Susquehanna River valley settlers (all my father's side). I get Northeastern State Settlers with sub groups Rhode Island and SE Mass settlers (my Mom's mother's father's family were very early Colonials to that area - founding members of Westerly Rhode Island and other places and officers in militia etc)... New England and Easter Great Lake Settlers (we have Irish/Scots Highlander from Ontario on Mom's father's side)... and the two Euro communities I get are Munster and Leinster in Ireland (my mother's father was about 75% Gaelic Irish and the rest Scots Highlander and maternal line was from Ireland).

I get about 49% Ireland and Scotland, 22% Germanic Europe, 21% NW Euro, 4% France and 2% each Norway and Sweden. The NW Euro category is strange in that is that English or Dutch - probably both since they are so similar? That is what I am assuming... and more Southern Scotland etc... as I do have ancestry from the Lowlands as well on my father's side... in addition to Ferguson which judging from my distant cousin matching at both Ancestry and FTDNA - are probably Fergusons of the Highland variety from Argyll...

Bollox79
05-31-2019, 03:20 PM
Speaking of Pennsylvania Dutch (German) ancestors I have some good pictures from my father's side - first the Burd family I get my middle name from - judging from family tradition (and distant cousin matching) they appear to the same family as Col. James Burd from Orminston who settled in PA (I get a pretty good cluster of Border families that the Burds married into like Clan Pringle, Erskine and Haliburton)... anyway they married with Lutheran Germans and served in our conflicts and were from Perry count, PA: 30683

Those Burds from Perry married with the Wolfe/Wolf family originally from Northhampton (I have noticed that happened a lot in my Lutheran German families - they first settled there and then moved West)... the Wolfes were possibly from Alsace at one point, but before that Hesse according to research. Their immigrant ancestor was a Captain in the Rev. and many were soldiers in the following conflicts! This is my 4th Great Grandmother Mary Magdalena Wolf(e)... who married John Burd: 30684

My Weavers seem to be very likely to be German and more than one line of male Weavers (not Y-DNA tested as I know of yet) who were Captains in the Rev... show up in my distant cousin match list, so I have my father's cousin or 2nd cousin testing to see which of those male Weaver lines show up in his and I'll approach them about testing an SNP to see if they are at least a match. Here is my 2nd GGF George Webster Weaver - German and Scots-Irish (his mother was a Scottish Ferguson!): 30685

His son was my GGF Charles Burd Weaver Sr. - his mother was Ninevah Burd (from that Scottish/German family from Perry) 30686



My father's mothers side were Houcks (often spelled and I think it was pronounced "Hawk" in the census)... I think the ancestor from Northampton (around the Lehigh area) was possibly a son of a Captain Hawk... an Adam Houck or Hawk - and they spent some time out West also farming... and fought in the different Wars etc... The Houcks mixed with the Prussian Mefforts (Meffords) who were married with the Mennonite Oberholtzers and Gute (Good) from around Brecknock, Lancaster! Here are the Houcks (this would be my Grandmother's Grandfather and Grandmother and family - she is 99 might make it to 100 this year!): 30687

Bollox79
05-31-2019, 03:22 PM
Last bit of previous post: Some pictures of Mefforts I have been able to find! First picture is of Corporal Henry Meffort who served in the 83rd Regiment, Pennsylvania Infantry, Company F, and the 2nd picture is his father Jacob Meffort! Henry's brother was a Private Jacob Charles Meffort and a Veteran of our Civil War... and one of his brothers was Rev. John L Meffort. 30688 30689

One thing I have learned about these Lutheran German families from my ancestry in PA... they were religious and they were hard working and surprisingly patriotic! All of the men in the war generations usually served or some of them did anyway! Many more than I thought - they rival my Mom's colonial side for number of Veterans!

Ahh and last, but not least is my Grandfather a Weaver/Burd and and his mother was a German Switzer (Schweitzer) who married with Yinger/Jungers and Keisters/Kisters from York, PA - also Scottish Cummings and Prussian Heffelmans: 30690

Cheers,
Charlie

Edit: Update for Corporal Henry B. Meffert's Civil War service: Promoted to Corporal, May 20, 1862; wounded at Gaines' Mill, Va., June 27, 1862; discharged September 18, for wounds received at Bull Run, Va., August 30, 1862: https://www.pa-roots.com/pacw/infantry/83rd/83dcof.html

geebee
05-31-2019, 05:31 PM
I find their England, Wales/Northwestern European category a bit frustrating as well, and I feel, at this stage of the game they could have been more precise, and broken it down more.

At the very least, they really need to be clearer about who is in the reference panels. Right now, the panels all use the same names as the category. This isn't necessarily appropriate. The category name -- or DNA component name -- can appropriately reflect where the component is seen, regardless of where the reference panel samples are from. But the reference panel should be based on just that -- the location of the samples. So regardless of where the category/component is seen, you shouldn't include any name as part of the reference panel name unless you actually have samples from that region.

For example, suppose a lots of people located chiefly in both France and Great Britain match a particular reference panel. You might decide to call the component they're matching "France and Great Britain". But the reference panel itself should only be called "France and Great Britain" if it includes samples from both places.

So if Ancestry calls the panel as well as the component "England, Wales and Northwestern Europe", they are at a minimum implying that it contains samples from all three of these places. (If it also contains a few samples from nearby places like Scotland or Ireland, that isn't too much of a problem.)

Right now, though, there's no way to be sure. Ancestry just tells us how many samples are in the panel -- 1,519 in the case of the England, Wales, and Northwestern Europe reference panel. How many of these are from England? How many of them are from Wales? And, not just how many are from "Northwestern Europe", but how many from France; how many from Belgium; how many from Germany; or wherever else the samples are from. Or, if all the samples are actually just from Great Britain, Ancestry ought not to call the panel the same thing as the category. The name implies something different depending on whether you're talking about the panel or the category.

geebee
05-31-2019, 07:54 PM
Speaking of Pennsylvania Dutch (German) ancestors I have some good pictures from my father's side - first the Burd family I get my middle name from - judging from family tradition (and distant cousin matching) they appear to the same family as Col. James Burd from Orminston who settled in PA (I get a pretty good cluster of Border families that the Burds married into like Clan Pringle, Erskine and Haliburton)... anyway they married with Lutheran Germans and served in our conflicts and were from Perry count, PA: 30683

Those Burds from Perry married with the Wolfe/Wolf family originally from Northhampton (I have noticed that happened a lot in my Lutheran German families - they first settled there and then moved West)... the Wolfes were possibly from Alsace at one point, but before that Hesse according to research. Their immigrant ancestor was a Captain in the Rev. and many were soldiers in the following conflicts! This is my 4th Great Grandmother Mary Magdalena Wolf(e)... who married John Burd: 30684

My Weavers seem to be very likely to be German and more than one line of male Weavers (not Y-DNA tested as I know of yet) who were Captains in the Rev... show up in my distant cousin match list, so I have my father's cousin or 2nd cousin testing to see which of those male Weaver lines show up in his and I'll approach them about testing an SNP to see if they are at least a match. Here is my 2nd GGF George Webster Weaver - German and Scots-Irish (his mother was a Scottish Ferguson!): 30685

His son was my GGF Charles Burd Weaver Sr. - his mother was Ninevah Burd (from that Scottish/German family from Perry) 30686



My father's mothers side were Houcks (often spelled and I think it was pronounced "Hawk" in the census)... I think the ancestor from Northampton (around the Lehigh area) was possibly a son of a Captain Hawk... an Adam Houck or Hawk - and they spent some time out West also farming... and fought in the different Wars etc... The Houcks mixed with the Prussian Mefforts (Meffords) who were married with the Mennonite Oberholtzers and Gute (Good) from around Brecknock, Lancaster! Here are the Houcks (this would be my Grandmother's Grandfather and Grandmother and family - she is 99 might make it to 100 this year!): 30687

Your ancestry seems a lot like my paternal ancestry. Pennsylvania Dutch mixed in with Scottish/Scots-(Scotch-)Irish. But I think that's a pretty common blend for folks in Pennsylvania with colonial ancestry. My Germans were mostly Lutheran with some Reformed -- sometimes in union churches that were actually both, or two congregations sharing one building and one pastor. (Sometimes meeting together but keeping two different rolls.)

My great, great grandfather on my paternal line was George Washington Bookhammer I. (My great grandfather was also George Washington Bookhammer (II), as was one of my grandfather's younger brothers.) He was with the 184th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry during the Civil War, and was presumably part of the Appomattox Campaign. (Certainly his regiment was, and I presume he was with them since it was during his enlistment period.)

I'm actually from Central Pennsylvania, specifically Blair County; but I'm located in the Pittsburgh area now. Technically, I don't have a German surname, but a Pennsylvania surname -- since that's where my ancestor's surname was transformed from its original German.

Bollox79
06-01-2019, 05:31 AM
Your ancestry seems a lot like my paternal ancestry. Pennsylvania Dutch mixed in with Scottish/Scots-(Scotch-)Irish. But I think that's a pretty common blend for folks in Pennsylvania with colonial ancestry. My Germans were mostly Lutheran with some Reformed -- sometimes in union churches that were actually both, or two congregations sharing one building and one pastor. (Sometimes meeting together but keeping two different rolls.)

My great, great grandfather on my paternal line was George Washington Bookhammer I. (My great grandfather was also George Washington Bookhammer (II), as was one of my grandfather's younger brothers.) He was with the 184th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry during the Civil War, and was presumably part of the Appomattox Campaign. (Certainly his regiment was, and I presume he was with them since it was during his enlistment period.)

I'm actually from Central Pennsylvania, specifically Blair County; but I'm located in the Pittsburgh area now. Technically, I don't have a German surname, but a Pennsylvania surname -- since that's where my ancestor's surname was transformed from its original German.

Ok cool another PA Dutchman... that would all be my father's side with an East German and Isles line each mixed in - and my mother's side is very early Colonials in the NE and and Gaelic Irish and Scots Highlander Jacobites and a maternal line from Ireland...

Yep Lutheran or Reformed or both sounds familiar... Weaver I assume was Weber - but requires testing some of those families from PA - including on from Centre county I think a Captain Michael Weaver of the Rangers in the Rev. who ended up in Centre - that line shows up often in my PA cousin matching! Mine are mostly from the Northampton and Susquehanna river valley Perry Lancester etc... Scots-Irish from Cumberland etc! Mom's is all from the NE and Ontario...

A total sum of my "German PA" surnames in my Dad's side: Weaver/Weber, Switzer/Schweitzer (on more than one line), Houck, Meffert or Mefferd, Heffelman, Wolfe/Wolf, Wertz, Bender/Painter, Faber/Farver, Giering, Bielman, Dietermuller, Keister/Kester, Yinger/Junger, Grove, Oberholtzer, Gute/Good, Lutterbeck, Seigler to name the ones I know! Also Dierhammer or Durhammer in there with the Wolfs... (your Bookhammer reminded me of that one!)...

Finn
06-01-2019, 07:14 AM
@Baltimore, indeed Kleyn could be from Dutch Klein(e). I know personally people with a such like surname.
@Dewsloth Fertig looks German, I saw in your posting also a Ferte or de la Ferte....looks more French.

I guess in much of these cases Dutch and Deutsch (of course not the same) were in mixed use in the US?

geebee
06-02-2019, 02:33 AM
Ok cool another PA Dutchman... that would all be my father's side with an East German and Isles line each mixed in - and my mother's side is very early Colonials in the NE and and Gaelic Irish and Scots Highlander Jacobites and a maternal line from Ireland...

Yep Lutheran or Reformed or both sounds familiar... Weaver I assume was Weber - but requires testing some of those families from PA - including on from Centre county I think a Captain Michael Weaver of the Rangers in the Rev. who ended up in Centre - that line shows up often in my PA cousin matching! Mine are mostly from the Northampton and Susquehanna river valley Perry Lancester etc... Scots-Irish from Cumberland etc! Mom's is all from the NE and Ontario...

A total sum of my "German PA" surnames in my Dad's side: Weaver/Weber, Switzer/Schweitzer (on more than one line), Houck, Meffert or Mefferd, Heffelman, Wolfe/Wolf, Wertz, Bender/Painter, Faber/Farver, Giering, Bielman, Dietermuller, Keister/Kester, Yinger/Junger, Grove, Oberholtzer, Gute/Good, Lutterbeck, Seigler to name the ones I know! Also Dierhammer or Durhammer in there with the Wolfs... (your Bookhammer reminded me of that one!)...

Centre is getting pretty close to where my ancestors were. If fact, some of them were in Centre in at least one census. But they mostly wound up in Huntingdon, Blair, Bedford, and Clearfield.

My mother's maiden name was Weaver, and it was supposed to have been from German Weber. I even know the "who" all the way back to my 3rd great grandfather ... except that the guy wasn't my 3rd great grandfather. In fact, it turns out that my mother actually should have been born a Babcock. Her father was either part of an unofficial and unacknowledged adoption, or else he wasn't actually her biological father. I'm still working on determining which.

In the meanwhile, I do at least know who my mother's Babcock grandparents were. In any case, it turns out that there's a lot more English on my mother's side than we'd believed -- and not much German. Her "German" ancestry turns out to be in the form of an Alsatian great grandmother, and some more distant Swiss ancestry. Otherwise, my German ancestry is all on my father's side.

EDIT:

Meant to also mention that where you have Jinger/Yinger, I have some Juengling/Yingling ancestors. Some of the other names weren't in my tree, but can be found in my father's hometown of Williamsburg (PA, that is -- they have a sign outside of town that says "the other historic Williamsburg").

Bollox79
06-02-2019, 03:58 AM
Centre is getting pretty close to where my ancestors were. If fact, some of them were in Centre in at least one census. But they mostly wound up in Huntingdon, Blair, Bedford, and Clearfield.

My mother's maiden name was Weaver, and it was supposed to have been from German Weber. I even know the "who" all the way back to my 3rd great grandfather ... except that the guy wasn't my 3rd great grandfather. In fact, it turns out that my mother actually should have been born a Babcock. Her father was either part of an unofficial and unacknowledged adoption, or else he wasn't actually her biological father. I'm still working on determining which.

In the meanwhile, I do at least know who my mother's Babcock grandparents were. In any case, it turns out that there's a lot more English on my mother's side than we'd believed -- and not much German. Her "German" ancestry turns out to be in the form of an Alsatian great grandmother, and some more distant Swiss ancestry. Otherwise, my German ancestry is all on my father's side.

EDIT:

Meant to also mention that where you have Jinger/Yinger, I have some Juengling/Yingling ancestors. Some of the other names weren't in my tree, but can be found in my father's hometown of Williamsburg (PA, that is -- they have a sign outside of town that says "the other historic Williamsburg").

Ok cool... yes I am "assuming" that my Weavers are actually Weavers - testing Weavers around PA will hopefully tell me that if I can find their descendants and have them test an SNP to let me know if they are in my current (old) group and if so I'd approach them about more testing... for what it is worth it does seem to stay "Weaver/Weber" back to the 4th GGF Adam Weaver listed in my signature! The Captain Michael Weaver/Weber line from Centre (this guy and his family: https://www.geni.com/people/Michael-Weaver-Sr/6000000001737644660) shows up an awful lot in my cousin matches... and there was a Captain Martin Weaver/Weber banging around were my 4th GGF was born/from in Dauphin... but that family really doesn't show up - no good records on them other than a lot of census for Martin and eldest son George in Paxtang in Dauphin... and a lot of records about his Revolutionary war unit etc... Martin's eldest son being a George and my 4th GGF Adam's Grandson was a George Weaver - so perhaps a connection, but they don't list names on the census that far back only the head of the household - though Martin did die and his assets went to Orphan court... maybe Adam was involved in that?!? I'd like eventually the question with DNA testing!

Speaking of Babcock that is a very common surname of early Colonial settlers in the NE - my mother's mother's father's side (both of my Grandmother's paternal (mother and father of her father) lines from that old colonial gene pool and the paternal line of her maternal - that was Wheeler - but her actually maternal line is Irish!) has more than one line of them with Maxsons, Pendletons, Clark/Clarkes, Brownells, Richmonds, Foster/Forrester, Wyman, Brown, Smith, Fuller, Burnham, Greenman, Sherman, Sisson, Bowler, Rogers, Robinson, Miller, Coggeshall, and Wheeler to name a few... many were some the very early families to that area and were often involved in the politics and were officers in the militia etc even fighting in King Philip's War and the founding of Westerly, Rhode Island! Almost all of the intermarried and many appear to trace back to English nobility... but I have not personally really researched intently... I have mainly made sure these connections were actually per these families - getting my Ancestry DNA test done HAS helped me make some connections per the colonial families!

Yes when I first saw Yinger/Junger in my tree (and have made the connection via DNA) I thought of Yingling ;-)... some of the Mennonites from Lancaster were Swiss Mennonites before they perhaps spent a gen or two in Germany or just came straight over - there is a bit of that further back in my father's mother's side... I DO know my particular Weaver line is not the English one from the NE and that goes back to a Clement Weaver and possibly Wales (but are U106 like I am) or another set of Weavers from PA who are also U106, but not my subgroup and the Weaverland Swiss Weavers are U152!

If you feel like it and have your kit or kits on Gedmatch genesis - run them against my kit: T819374 and my Grandmother Houck's kit (She is 99 may make it to 100 this year!): ET5463914 - see if our PA ancestors crossed paths at all :-)!

Cheers,
Charlie (Cathal Dubh)

Finn
06-02-2019, 12:31 PM
sorry what the wrong thread....