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jeanL
06-14-2017, 03:54 AM
Am I missing something? If he could only be assigned to R1b1-L278, then aren't L754, L388 and P297 some big holes to fill before we get to how many derived and ancestral alleles he had at the M269 level?

Evidently, Blätterhöhle wasn't even derived for L754, L388 and P297, let alone M269. Lipson et al would have called him R1b1a if he was derived for L754 at least, would they not?

All I can get from the paper was that the status of L754, L388 and P297 was not checked; there is nothing in the paper that said that it was ancestral. In fact; it not only says that it might have been an R1b-M269 equivalent; but it had numerous of the derived SNPs leading to R1b-M269. I'm sure if they got it down to the R1b-M269 line; they must have checked the P297 and other lines before that.

rms2
06-14-2017, 08:11 AM
All I can get from the paper was that the status of L754, L388 and P297 was not checked; there is nothing in the paper that said that it was ancestral. In fact; it not only says that it might have been an R1b-M269 equivalent; but it had numerous of the derived SNPs leading to R1b-M269. I'm sure if they got it down to the R1b-M269 line; they must have checked the P297 and other lines before that.

Where does it say it might have been an M269 equivalent and had "numerous . . . derived SNPs leading to R1b-M269"? Certainly not in what you quoted. There's no indication it was derived for L754, L388, and P297. Apparently that is why they only got as far as L278 and R1b1.

Jean M
06-14-2017, 09:51 AM
No one has actually cracked open any kurgans on the Pontic steppe or in the Carpathian Basin yet to try and get some Yamnaya y-dna from them. Everything thus far has been pretty eastern, with the exception of one from SE Bulgaria that was I2a2a1b1b.

I2a2a1b1b (L699) This haplogroup appears in Mesolithic Ukraine at Vovnigi 5473-5326 calBCE, classified as part of the Azov-Dnepr pottery-making hunter-gatherer culture. Later this haplogroup appears in the Yamnaya extension up the Danube in Bulgaria 3012-2900 calBCE, in an individual genetically a mixture of EEF, EHG, and Samara Yamnaya. Another example (I2a2a1b1b2 according to Malyshev) appears a Late Yamnaya or Catacomb man who was buried at Ulan IV, kurgan 4, in Russia, between 2849 and 2146 BC.

Jean M
06-14-2017, 11:05 AM
I should mention here that I need to correct AJ re arsenical copper. I had followed the crowd on this, but my ideas were turned upside down by reading Betancourt, P. P. 2006.... Two very important points are made:

1. Arsenic did not make for a harder metal.
2. It is doubtful whether metal-workers even identified arsenic in the Copper Age.


Would you believe it! I have now found a thesis from last year that challenges point 2 pretty dramatically. Loïc C. Boscher, Reconstructing the Arsenical Copper Production Process in Early Bronze Age Southwest Asia. UCL. discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1529309/1/Boscher_Loic_e-thesis%20Final%20copy.pdf

I am still reading it, but thought I had better correct myself immediately. Sorry to interrupt the thread.

rms2
06-14-2017, 11:25 AM
Regarding the Blätterhöhle R1b1-L278, it seems that such R1b dead ends are vanishingly rare in central and western Europe in the Neolithic period, along with the occasional R1b-V88 in Iberia. They are buried by the great bulk of Neolithic non-R1b results, mostly I2a and G2a.

Apparently R1b spent the LGM in a SE European refuge, as it shows up 14k years ago in NE Italy just north of the headwaters of the Adriatic, in Mesolithic Romania at the Iron Gates, and in Mesolithic Ukraine at Vasil'evka. By the Neolithic it appears to be restricted mainly to Ukraine and the Baltic, where it has shown up plentifully thus far and not just as the rare odd-man-out in a cave among the bones of I2as.

Look, for example, at all the R1b results from the Sredny Stog culture at the Ukrainian site of Dereivka, believed by some scholars to have been the fountainhead of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

Subsequently, where does R1b-L23 first appear? In Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, two cultures credited with the spread of Indo-European languages and culture.

I think all the indications are that R1b-M269 and R1b-L23 arose on the Ukrainian steppe.

16847

R1b Dereivka and Vasil'evka (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1opz8pHASkZynRDUP105sq9L0hBWvg8tgG4MX4yoJs0I/edit#)

jeanL
06-14-2017, 12:25 PM
Where does it say it might have been an M269 equivalent and had "numerous . . . derived SNPs leading to R1b-M269"? Certainly not in what you quoted. There's no indication it was derived for L754, L388, and P297. Apparently that is why they only got as far as L278 and R1b1.



This Blatterhole_MN individual was derived for six SNPs within the P clade (L781, L741, P226, P237, P239, M45), one SNP characteristic for haplogroup R (P227), one for R1 (P238), and the sole representing SNP for R1b (M343). Subclade R1b1 was defined by L278. R1b1a1a2 showed both derived and ancestral alleles of characteristic SNPs. Thus, he could only be assigned to haplogroup R1b1.

R1b1a1a2 aka R1b-M269. So from the quote it doesn't say anything about the status of L754, L388, and P297; so we don't know one way or the other. It does say that it showed both ancestral and derived alleles of characteristic SNPs for R1b1a1a2(M269). I said; we need the BAM files; but if you have someone showing several derived alleles of R1b1a1a2(aka M269) then I think the upstream SNPs can be inferred.

R.Rocca
06-14-2017, 01:07 PM
R1b1a1a2 aka R1b-M269. So from the quote it doesn't say anything about the status of L754, L388, and P297; so we don't know one way or the other. It does say that it showed both ancestral and derived alleles of characteristic SNPs for R1b1a1a2(M269). I said; we need the BAM files; but if you have someone showing several derived alleles of R1b1a1a2(aka M269) then I think the upstream SNPs can be inferred.

Yup, looks like this might be a "pre-R1b1a1a2" sample. As I said with the Iron Gates samples, it will be interesting to see if they belong to their own separate subclade.

TigerMW
06-14-2017, 01:14 PM
I think where I disagree with you with regard to P312 and U106 is how long that cultural unity persisted and to what extent. They might have begun in the same steppe milieu but something happened along the way to divert U106 into the Germanic trajectory and away from the Italo-Celtic trajectory.
I'm in agreement that U106 went on a different cultural trajectory than P312 and this probably was fairly early (for it to be in Swedish Boat Axe). I would extend this divergence in cultural trajectories down a level or two within P312 as well.

The strong, yet different geographical localizations of L21 versus U152 versus L238 and to some degree versus DF19, DF99 and DF27 indicates these each quickly diverged from each other.

There are no strong early branching alignments than I can see, for example, L21 and L238 together, or L21 and DF19 together, or U152 and DF27 together. To me U106 was just another divergence.

I am not a "Celtic from the West" advocate by any means, but I think it is likely that some of the tribes diverged on their own paths but then were brought together in trade/exchange under a lingua franca (language of business/trade) or two. Obviously, there was a period where Celtic was the lingua franca and another period where Latin was the primary lingua franca.

rms2
06-14-2017, 02:09 PM
R1b1a1a2 aka R1b-M269. So from the quote it doesn't say anything about the status of L754, L388, and P297; so we don't know one way or the other. It does say that it showed both ancestral and derived alleles of characteristic SNPs for R1b1a1a2(M269). I said; we need the BAM files; but if you have someone showing several derived alleles of R1b1a1a2(aka M269) then I think the upstream SNPs can be inferred.

I don't see how all three SNPs, L754, L388, and P297, can be inferred for a sample that "showed both derived and ancestral alleles" of R1b1a1a2. And evidently they cannot, because Lipson et al would not go any further than R1b1-L278.

For all we know, Blätterhöhle was ancestral for those three, as well, but had a couple of odd derived results at the M269 level (maybe just one).

Jean M
06-14-2017, 02:23 PM
.. I think it is likely that some of the tribes diverged on their own paths but then were brought together in trade/exchange under a lingua franca (language of business/trade) or two. Obviously, there was a period where Celtic was the lingua franca ..

What is the evidence of Celtic as a lingua franca at all, let alone that it would explain entire tribes switching to it from their mother tongue? Some archaeologists have seized on this idea as a way of explaining the inexplicable e.g. the Celtic languages arriving in the British Isles without any population movement. It doesn't at all. Traders who regularly ply a particular route are likely to pick up enough of the local languages (if different from their own) to get by. The lingua franca in big, polyglot markets is most likely to be the local language or that spoken as a second language by the majority of market-goers. It does not mean that entire tribes switch en masse from their native tongue to the trading language.

Proto-Germanic borrowed some words from Celtic, including a word for foreigner, *walhaz, which is particularly interesting, as it is taken from the name of a Celtic tribe, the Volcae. This implies that the Germani saw the Celtic-speakers as foreigners. Linguists can date this borrowing to probably before the 3rd century BC. Derivations of *walhaz were later used to describe speakers of Celtic and Romance languages. Old English Wealhas gave us the names 'Welsh' and 'Wales'. Modern German Welsch may signify French or Italian. The same origin provided the name Walloon for a Romance language spoken in Belgium today. It would seem that the Volcae were in close contact with Germani when Proto-Germanic was developing. Since the Celts to the south of Germani in what is now Poland were called the Lugii, we may guess that the Volcae lived on the southern border of the Jastorf culture in what is now Germany.

Webb
06-14-2017, 03:43 PM
What is the evidence of Celtic as a lingua franca at all, let alone that it would explain entire tribes switching to it from their mother tongue? Some archaeologists have seized on this idea as a way of explaining the inexplicable e.g. the Celtic languages arriving in the British Isles without any population movement. It doesn't at all. Traders who regularly ply a particular route are likely to pick up enough of the local languages (if different from their own) to get by. The lingua franca in big, polyglot markets is most likely to be the local language or that spoken as a second language by the majority of market-goers. It does not mean that entire tribes switch en masse from their native tongue to the trading language.

Proto-Germanic borrowed some words from Celtic, including a word for foreigner, *walhaz, which is particularly interesting, as it is taken from the name of a Celtic tribe, the Volcae. This implies that the Germani saw the Celtic-speakers as foreigners. Linguists can date this borrowing to probably before the 3rd century BC. Derivations of *walhaz were later used to describe speakers of Celtic and Romance languages. Old English Wealhas gave us the names 'Welsh' and 'Wales'. Modern German Welsch may signify French or Italian. The same origin provided the name Walloon for a Romance language spoken in Belgium today. It would seem that the Volcae were in close contact with Germani when Proto-Germanic was developing. Since the Celts to the south of Germani in what is now Poland were called the Lugii, we may guess that the Volcae lived on the southern border of the Jastorf culture in what is now Germany.

I find the Volcae the most interesting Celtic group. I picture them as being predominately DF27. Joke, but not really.

TigerMW
06-14-2017, 05:31 PM
I don't see how all three SNPs, L754, L388, and P297, can be inferred for a sample that "showed both derived and ancestral alleles" of R1b1a1a2. And evidently they cannot, because Lipson et al would not go any further than R1b1-L278.

For all we know, Blätterhöhle was ancestral for those three, as well, but had a couple of odd derived results at the M269 level (maybe just one).
I agree this is uncertain without more information. I'd want to see the derived calls for the M269 SNP equivalents as there are so many of them. Some of these may be junky and recurrent. Some may be low quality reads.

Keep in mind that in NGS testing even with reportedly high reliability on good DNA samples (not necessarily aDNA) there are false positives. When you scan millions of locations, a low error rate still results in false positives.

Beyond the quality of the SNPs and the test reads it would be good to get a ratio of good derived versus good ancestral calls for M269 equivalents.

Romilius
06-14-2017, 07:23 PM
For those duelling about Blatterhohle, on Eupedia Genetiker showed results for that R1b from Romanian Mesolithic: the sample seems to be pre-V88 or V88.

R.Rocca
06-14-2017, 09:57 PM
For those duelling about Blatterhohle, on Eupedia Genetiker showed results for that R1b from Romanian Mesolithic: the sample seems to be pre-V88 or V88.

Link please?

rms2
06-15-2017, 11:14 AM
Link please?

I think this (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34173-does-R1b-V88-originate-from-the-Iron-Gate/page2) is it. It's at Eupedia. I can't see it now because the site says I have exceeded my limit of looking without signing up, and I don't want to sign up.

rms2
06-15-2017, 11:38 AM
I agree this is uncertain without more information. I'd want to see the derived calls for the M269 SNP equivalents as there are so many of them. Some of these may be junky and recurrent. Some may be low quality reads.

Keep in mind that in NGS testing even with reportedly high reliability on good DNA samples (not necessarily aDNA) there are false positives. When you scan millions of locations, a low error rate still results in false positives.

Beyond the quality of the SNPs and the test reads it would be good to get a ratio of good derived versus good ancestral calls for M269 equivalents.

Right, and even if Blätterhöhle was some kind of pre-M269, I'm not sure how significant that is. Even fully fledged M269 is pretty old, much older than Blätterhöhle. Some odd haplogroup that diverged somewhere upstream of that in the body of a wandering HG who was the ancestor of the Blätterhöhle man doesn't seem to have much significance. The preponderance of the evidence points to a SE European R1b refuge probably centered on the Ukrainian steppe.

M269 and L23 aren't showing up in Neolithic farmers in central and western Europe or the Balkans, at least not so far. They have shown up in Yamnaya and Bell Beaker, and R1b has shown up in Mesolithic Vasil'evka and Neolithic Sredny Stog in Ukraine.

Romilius
06-15-2017, 12:38 PM
Link please?

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/

rms2
06-15-2017, 01:18 PM
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/

Just looking really quickly, I see several positive calls for PF6279, which is V88. I have not checked all the rest.

Jean M
06-15-2017, 01:48 PM
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-sc1/

SC1 is not Blätterhöhle. It is a Mesolithic sample from the site of Schela Cladovei in the Iron Gates region of southwestern Romania.

The Blätterhöhle R1b is BLA 16 / I1593.

rms2
06-15-2017, 02:23 PM
SC1 is not Blätterhöhle. It is a Mesolithic sample from the site of Schela Cladovei in the Iron Gates region of southwestern Romania.

The Blätterhöhle R1b is BLA 16 / I1593.

He knew that. Check out Post 263 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=246804&viewfull=1#post246804).

The link he posted was in answer to Rich's request.

epoch
06-15-2017, 06:11 PM
What is the evidence of Celtic as a lingua franca at all, let alone that it would explain entire tribes switching to it from their mother tongue? Some archaeologists have seized on this idea as a way of explaining the inexplicable e.g. the Celtic languages arriving in the British Isles without any population movement. It doesn't at all. Traders who regularly ply a particular route are likely to pick up enough of the local languages (if different from their own) to get by. The lingua franca in big, polyglot markets is most likely to be the local language or that spoken as a second language by the majority of market-goers. It does not mean that entire tribes switch en masse from their native tongue to the trading language.

Proto-Germanic borrowed some words from Celtic, including a word for foreigner, *walhaz, which is particularly interesting, as it is taken from the name of a Celtic tribe, the Volcae. This implies that the Germani saw the Celtic-speakers as foreigners. Linguists can date this borrowing to probably before the 3rd century BC. Derivations of *walhaz were later used to describe speakers of Celtic and Romance languages. Old English Wealhas gave us the names 'Welsh' and 'Wales'. Modern German Welsch may signify French or Italian. The same origin provided the name Walloon for a Romance language spoken in Belgium today. It would seem that the Volcae were in close contact with Germani when Proto-Germanic was developing. Since the Celts to the south of Germani in what is now Poland were called the Lugii, we may guess that the Volcae lived on the southern border of the Jastorf culture in what is now Germany.

Caesar mentioned the Volcae Tectosages entering Middle Germany and settling there:



And there was formerly a time when the Gauls excelled the Germans in prowess, and waged war on them offensively, and, on account of the great number of their people and the insufficiency of their land, sent colonies over the Rhine. Accordingly, the Volcae Tectosages, seized on those parts of Germany which are the most fruitful [and lie] around the Hercynian forest, (which, I perceive, was known by report to Eratosthenes and some other Greeks, and which they call Orcynia), and settled there. Which nation to this time retains its position in those settlements, and has a very high character for justice and military merit; now also they continue in the same scarcity, indigence, hardihood, as the Germans, and use the same food and dress; but their proximity to the Province and knowledge of commodities from countries beyond the sea supplies to the Gauls many things tending to luxury as well as civilization. Accustomed by degrees to be overmatched and worsted in many engagements, they do not even compare themselves to the Germans in prowess.

http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/caesar/gallic_e6.html#24

Jean M
06-15-2017, 08:09 PM
Caesar mentioned the Volcae Tectosages entering Middle Germany and settling there

Yes I know. I think he was muddled. Here's my draft text on the subject:


Since the Celts to the south of Germani in what is now Poland were called the Lugii, we may guess that the Volcae lived on the southern border of the Jastorf culture in what is now Germany. By the time that Roman authors were grappling with Celtic tribal names, the expanding Germani had ejected the Celts from a large area of Germania. Two tribes of Volcae were known in southern Gaul. Caesar tells us that a branch of the Volcae Tectosages had migrated from Gaul to the Hercynian Forest in Germania. They certainly appear in both places by this time, but who can be sure of the direction of migration? Caesar was not to know that a large part of the Germania of his day had been Celtic-speaking centuries earlier.

Ravai
06-16-2017, 07:24 AM
Good morning Jean M, Is it possible to find DNA from the Lugii? Do you know if there were burial or were cremated?

epoch
06-16-2017, 07:56 AM
On the admixture of Bell Beaker, this overlooked gem from the Olalde study...


For Beaker Complex in Iberia, populations outside Iberia are strongly rejected as sources and only Iberian populations (Iberia_MN, Iberia_Chalcolithic_MIR) show a good fit.The other Chalcolithic Iberian population, Iberia_Chalcolithic_ALA, fails as a source likely because it harbours more hunter-gatherer ancestry (Extended Data Fig. 2) than do other Iberian populations. In contrast, for Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia, models using Iberian populations as a source for their Neolithic ancestry are rejected. We obtain a good fit for Globular_Amphora_LN and TRB_Sweden_MN, two populations with a hunter-gatherer component close to KO1 on the cline defined by LaBraña1-KO1 (Extended Data Fig. 2; Table S5), and beyond Loschbour on the cline defined by LaBraña1-Loschbour (Table S6). Other central European populations such as Germany_MN or Hungary_LCA are rejected, but their fit can be improved by adding KO1 as a third source (Table S8), suggesting that the true admixing population likely had more hunter-gatherer ancestry than either Germany_MN or Hungary_LCA.

So we have a rejection of German and Hungarian Neolithics as the input into non-Iberian Bell Beaker and instead have a better fit for more northern/eastern populations in GAC and TRB. I would reject their inclusion of the Hungarian KO1 as a third population since it is three thousand years older (5780-5640 calBCE) than the population we are looking for.

There are three issues there that should be considered if we are to make such very straight forward conclusions from this quote. First, the paper tries to identify Neolithic pops on their WHG admixture because the "Anatolian part" appears to similar. We saw from the Lipson 2017 paper as well as from Mathieson 2017, which claimed that early LBK migrated through the Balkans without picking up much WHG, that a large part of Middel Neolithic Farmers (MNF) WHG admixture has been picked up locally, so that does make sense. But that also means that the rejection of German_MN is not to be taken literally. It just means we need to find a population with some more WHG. The surprising case of Blatterhohle shows that we might find far more, alltough . The rejection of Iberian makes far more sense as the WHG admixture in it is far more La Brana related. (Table S6 shows all non Ibarian MNF's need negative La Brana admixture).

Secondly, the paper states that they grouped all non-Iberian samples to increase power, which obviously makes sense with such small differences. But it might swamp all kind of local differences.

Thirdly KO1 has recently been considered a tad admixted. We saw some Anatolian admixture - actually forgot which paper it was, I'lll check later - and in Mathieson there is a hint of EHG admixture in KO1 in Figure 2 (Not mentioned at all in the text though!)

TigerMW
06-16-2017, 04:50 PM
... If P312 came up the Danube Valley via Yamnaya into Bell Beaker, and U106 came around the north side of the Carpathians with Corded Ware, that would make perfect sense and explain a lot, like why U106 isn't showing up in Bell Beaker.
Assuming P312 came up the Danube Valley, which makes sense, what is the case AGAINST U106 to have leaked from the Middle Danube/Carpathian Basin/Moravia into Corded Wares lands through the East Bell Beakers or some form of Hungarian Yamnaya?

rms2
06-16-2017, 05:12 PM
Assuming P312 came up the Danube Valley, which makes sense, what is the case AGAINST U106 to have leaked from the Middle Danube/Carpathian Basin/Moravia into Corded Wares lands through the East Bell Beakers or some form of Hungarian Yamnaya?

No case against it that I can think of. It just seems more likely to me that U106 would have been part of Corded Ware east of the Carpathians rather than making a late entry from the south.

Of course, if all of L151 was in Corded Ware, it's a whole different story, and maybe that's the case. We could have U106 in northern CW, while the P312 tribe or tribes formed the nucleus of that western part of CW that became Bell Beaker.

Jean M
06-16-2017, 07:55 PM
Good morning Jean M, Is it possible to find DNA from the Lugii? Do you know if there were burial or were cremated?

I'm sorry to say that I have not investigated this. My assumption that the Lugii were Celtic-speakers is based only on archaeology and etymology.


Meanwhile Celts had settled in enclaves on fertile soils in what is now south-west Poland (Silesia) and southern Poland. A people called the Lugii, with a number of subgroups, were noted in this region by Tacitus in AD 98. The 'Lug' element appears widely in the names of Celtic places and tribes, reflecting the worship of a god of that name. In this case, a Celtic interpretation of the name is reinforced by a reference in Ptolemy's Geography to a town in the area named Lougidounon, an obvious Celtic construction from 'Lugi' and 'dunon' (fort).

rms2
06-17-2017, 11:14 AM
Forgive my going off topic a little, but I was wondering.

If the Volcae Tectosages made bratwurst, did they call them Volcae Tecto-sausages? ;)

rms2
06-18-2017, 08:57 PM
Forgive my going off topic a little, but I was wondering.

If the Volcae Tectosages made bratwurst, did they call them Volcae Tecto-sausages? ;)

Geez. I guess Tectosages reminds no one else of sausages? Am I not pronouncing Tectosages correctly?

rms2
06-18-2017, 09:07 PM
So . . . I think the strongest argument for a Corded Ware origin for Bell Beaker is the fact that Globular Amphora and TRB are the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker. That points to a path through Corded Ware territory.

Nibelung
06-18-2017, 09:36 PM
Where's the I1 then, unless that's specific to Scandinavian & Finnish Battle Axe?

MJost
06-19-2017, 03:51 AM
So . . . I think the strongest argument for a Corded Ware origin for Bell Beaker is the fact that Globular Amphora and TRB are the best fit for the Neolithic farmer component in Bell Beaker. That points to a path through Corded Ware territory.

True as per Haak 2015 "Our results make a compelling case for the steppe as a source of at least some of the Indo-European languages in Europe by documenting a massive migration ∼4,500 years ago associated with the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, which are identified by proponents of the steppe hypothesis as vectors for the spread of Indo-European languages into Europe"...


According to some expert facts found in this book, "Woodland in the Neolithic of Northern Europe: The Forest as Ancestor" by Gordon Noble

https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice%22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%20the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false

(https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice%22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%20the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false)"by the late Mesolithic, rich woodland environments has taken hold across most of northern Europe" So northern Europe 4th millennium be was still heavy forest that extended across Central European as a mixed forest ecoregion extending from eastern Germany to northern Moldova where the Eurasia Steppe begins.

So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.

The southern Danube plains was most likely the path to central Europe for 1000 years by R1b Men and pushed up the Rhine into north central Germany where the current BB sites are.

Haak 2015 also states: "...Our results support a view of European pre-history punctuated by two major migrations: first, the arrival of the first farmers during the Early Neolithic from the Near East, and second, the arrival of Yamnaya pastoralists during the Late Neolithic from the steppe. ... and "..."This second resurgence must have started during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age period itself, as the Bell Beaker and Unetice groups had reduced Yamnaya ancestry compared to the earlier Corded Ware, and comparable levels to that in some present-day Europeans (Fig. 3). Today, Yamnaya related ancestry is lower in southern Europe and higher in northern Europe,..."

MJost - Watterson

razyn
06-19-2017, 05:31 AM
So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.
As much as I'd like to say something about meeting the nicest people on a Honda, I'm not going to take the low road, here.

rms2
06-19-2017, 11:12 AM
True as per Haak 2015 "Our results make a compelling case for the steppe as a source of at least some of the Indo-European languages in Europe by documenting a massive migration ∼4,500 years ago associated with the Yamnaya and Corded Ware cultures, which are identified by proponents of the steppe hypothesis as vectors for the spread of Indo-European languages into Europe"...


According to some expert facts found in this book, "Woodland in the Neolithic of Northern Europe: The Forest as Ancestor" by Gordon Noble

https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice%22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%20the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false

(https://books.google.com/books?id=5IMHDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22after+the+ice%22+Gordon+Noble&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMyJ70-cjUAhVB1oMKHc8vBTMQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q=%22after%20the%20ice%22%20Gordon%20Noble&f=false)"by the late Mesolithic, rich woodland environments has taken hold across most of northern Europe" So northern Europe 4th millennium be was still heavy forest that extended across Central European as a mixed forest ecoregion extending from eastern Germany to northern Moldova where the Eurasia Steppe begins.

So begs that question, how did the Yamaha who were distinctive culture of pastoralists, who had ox-driven wagons with wheels and whose warriors rode horses made it through all this forest to get to Germany.

The southern Danube plains was most likely the path to central Europe for 1000 years by R1b Men and pushed up the Rhine into north central Germany where the current BB sites are.

Haak 2015 also states: "...Our results support a view of European pre-history punctuated by two major migrations: first, the arrival of the first farmers during the Early Neolithic from the Near East, and second, the arrival of Yamnaya pastoralists during the Late Neolithic from the steppe. ... and "..."This second resurgence must have started during the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age period itself, as the Bell Beaker and Unetice groups had reduced Yamnaya ancestry compared to the earlier Corded Ware, and comparable levels to that in some present-day Europeans (Fig. 3). Today, Yamnaya related ancestry is lower in southern Europe and higher in northern Europe,..."

MJost - Watterson

I think how much of a barrier European forest was depends on the density of the under story vegetation. Since the forest was pretty old by the 3rd millennium BC, chances are it had a lot of really large trees with a high canopy that shaded out a lot of under story growth. Thus passage through the forest on horseback and by wagon might not have been all that difficult.

Kopfjäger
06-19-2017, 07:21 PM
As much as I'd like to say something about meeting the nicest people on a Honda, I'm not going to take the low road, here.

HAHAHA Yamaha. Mark, that was pretty dopey! I'm a Harley guy, got my 883 at home - an iron horseman, staying true to my horse-riding, steppe ancestors!

We really do need results from kurgans closer to Central Europe, but maybe the western fringes of Corded Ware has some surprises.

R.Rocca
06-20-2017, 07:38 PM
From "Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia" by Jan Turek and Jaroslav Peška...


The introduction of Bell Beakers into the material culture
of Eneolithic populations in Central Europe did not bring
any great change in the settlement pattern. There are certain
formal differences in between the Corded Ware and
Bell Beaker material culture and burial rites, however these
changes occurred within the same symbolic system. It is
probable that the origin of the Bell Beaker Culture in Bohemia
and Moravia is as a result of internal changes within
the same society. It seems that some Corded Ware cultural
norms, such as strict burial customs or a taboo of digging
underground for other than funerary purposes (TUREK,
1995a; NEUSTUPNY 1997; 1998) were gradually becoming
less orthodox during the Bell Beaker period and subsequent
Early Bronze Age

TigerMW
06-20-2017, 09:42 PM
From "Bell Beaker settlement pattern in Bohemia and Moravia" by Jan Turek and Jaroslav Peška...

There are certain formal differences in between the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker material culture and burial rites, however these changes occurred within the same symbolic system. It is probable that the origin of the Bell Beaker Culture in Bohemia and Moravia is as a result of internal changes within the same society.
What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
Well, Constantine the Great converted.

rms2
06-21-2017, 12:28 AM
What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
Well, Constantine the Great converted.

What exactly does Kurgan Bell Beaker owe to early Iberian Bell Beaker?

If the taking of Iberian Bell Beaker wives was how the process occurred, why is it that Kurgan Bell Beaker bears little or no resemblance to Iberian_EN? Instead, its Neolithic farmer component is most like Globular Amphora and TRB.

It really does look like the Iberian contribution was ideas rather than people. But what were those ideas?

MitchellSince1893
06-21-2017, 01:11 AM
What does this imply?

The possibility that a Moravian group with aspects of Corded Ware culture, and other aspects that were different e.g. north-south burials; over time adopted other material inputs that resulted in creation of the eastern Bell Beaker culture?

That's my attempt at connecting the dots in this thread

R.Rocca
06-22-2017, 12:29 PM
What does this imply? This is tortured so I should probably stop. Do we see various kinds of women with Bell Beaker West heritages converting Corded Ware men in the Czech Rep to the new religion and practices? only to have them come back to bite the western people as newly minted Bell Beaker East people.
Well, Constantine the Great converted.

Regarding religion, I think no such conversion took place. If we take the stelae at Sion, we see the older ones being destroyed around 2450 BC which is when the Bell Beaker East people seem to have arrived. This may have been a violent event, where the old religion (perhaps practiced by Western Bell Beaker and Remedello Culture people?) was repudiated in favor of Indo-European gods and the warrior class.

R.Rocca
06-22-2017, 07:20 PM
For the record, Y-DNA of Bell Beaker in Hungary:

I3528 / GEN85 / Grave276: G2a2a1a2a1
I4178 / GEN_58, Grave 552: R1b1a1a2 [M269]
I2364 / GEN_10a, Grave 219/B: H2
I2365 / GEN_11a, Grave45: R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 [U152 > L2]
I2786 / GEN_56, Grave 133: I2a2a
I2741 / GEN_20, Grave 49: I2a1a1
I2787 / GEN_59, Grave 688: R1b1a1a2a2 [CTS1078 / Z2103]


It is not the R1b that causes pause, it is the non-majority of the R1b samples. To further complicate matters, the oldest dated male (I3528) belongs to the G2a2a1a2a1. The Z2103+ man may have been a direct Yamnaya migrant, and the U152+L2+ man a migrant from Moravian Bell Beaker, which is where archaeologists put Hungarian Bell Beaker's origin.

So, the issue still stands... of the three areas where L23+L51+ would have traveled from east to west and back again, and where one would expect an an absolute majority of L23+ (Hungarian Bell Beaker, Balkan Yamnaya and Vucedol), thus far has been anything but a clear trail for L23+L51+.

razyn
06-22-2017, 09:06 PM
It is not the R1b that causes pause, it is the non-majority of the R1b samples. To further complicate matters, the oldest dated male (I3528) belongs to the G2a2a1a2a1. The Z2103+ man may have been a direct Yamnaya migrant, and the U152+L2+ man a migrant from Moravian Bell Beaker, which is where archaeologists put Hungarian Bell Beaker's origin.

So, the issue still stands... of the three areas where L23+L51+ would have traveled from east to west and back again, and where one would expect an an absolute majority of L23+ (Hungarian Bell Beaker, Balkan Yamnaya and Vucedol), thus far has been anything but a clear trail for L23+L51+.

And also "for the record," (quoting JeanM, whose list of samples disappears in a response to R.Rocca): here's Alex's phylogenetic path for L2: R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139

Those additional SNPs/variants or what have you may not appear on every tree, many of them having been restricted for the solace of overworked statisticians and lab techs; but each one represents at least a generation, and perhaps [indeed, one strongly suspects] several. Each fork on Alex's more bushy tree represents time, not necessarily in or even near that burial place. This L2 guy in Hungary does not represent the rosy-fingered dawn of P312 (as distinguished from Z2103, M269*, or whoever else has turned up) in eastern Europe. He probably had cousins already all over the place -- not to mention ancestors, east and (maybe) west, or in fact any direction from where we happen to have found his remains. Anyway, his DF27 close relatives are pleased to see his data point mapped.

Romilius
06-23-2017, 05:44 AM
And also "for the record," (quoting JeanM, whose list of samples disappears in a response to R.Rocca): here's Alex's phylogenetic path for L2: R-P312/S116 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152/S28 > L2/S139

Those additional SNPs/variants or what have you may not appear on every tree, many of them having been restricted for the solace of overworked statisticians and lab techs; but each one represents at least a generation, and perhaps [indeed, one strongly suspects] several. Each fork on Alex's more bushy tree represents time, not necessarily in or even near that burial place. This L2 guy in Hungary does not represent the rosy-fingered dawn of P312 (as distinguished from Z2103, M269*, or whoever else has turned up) in eastern Europe. He probably had cousins already all over the place -- not to mention ancestors, east and (maybe) west, or in fact any direction from where we happen to have found his remains. Anyway, his DF27 close relatives are pleased to see his data point mapped.

Is that L2 from Hungary the oldest among U152 and derived lines ancient samples?

R.Rocca
06-23-2017, 05:59 PM
Here is a Yamnaya Culture burial (or the related Budzhak culture depending on the paper you read) from Alkaliya, Ukraine. It is incredibly interesting in that it has some Corded Ware analogies (flint axe) but also seems to be an archer's burial complete with a quiver and, based on the drawing, perhaps a bow(?). The crescent shape at the top of the quiver is similar to the decorated boar's tusk pendants that are so common in the eastern Bell Beaker province. Some have speculated that the decorated boar's tusks are indeed parts of a quiver...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Alkaliya_Yamnaya_Burial.png

MitchellSince1893
06-23-2017, 06:25 PM
Is that L2 from Hungary the oldest among U152 and derived lines ancient samples?

RISE563 in Bavaria (20 miles from the Austrian border on the Rhine River) is the oldest known U152 2572-2512 BC.

rms2
06-23-2017, 08:14 PM
Here is a Yamnaya Culture burial (or the related Budzhak culture depending on the paper you read) from Alkaliya, Ukraine. It is incredibly interesting in that it has some Corded Ware analogies (flint axe) but also seems to be an archer's burial complete with a quiver and, based on the drawing, perhaps a bow(?). The crescent shape at the top of the quiver is similar to the decorated boar's tusk pendants that are so common in the eastern Bell Beaker province. Some have speculated that the decorated boar's tusks are indeed parts of a quiver...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Alkaliya_Yamnaya_Burial.png

I'm tempted to ask my wife to bury me Yamnaya or Bell Beaker style, but I probably won't, since I'm not a pagan.

Plus it would probably be kind of expensive to have a mound raised over my grave.

I had a buddy back when I was a cop who was a veteran of the U.S. Army Green Berets. He told me he wanted to be buried with some weapons in case he needed them on the other side.

He also served as our Dungeon Master when we played Dungeons and Dragons. He was good at it, too.

Romilius
06-23-2017, 09:20 PM
RISE563 in Bavaria (20 miles from the Austrian border on the Rhine River) is the oldest known U152 2572-2512 BC.

Thanks... but... are you sure? Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys doesn't give RISE563 as U152+... And Altenmarkt (Osterhofen) is on the Danube river...

Probably, but I'm not sure, the oldest is that from Hungary (I2365), or that from France (I3875)...

Romilius
06-23-2017, 09:22 PM
Here is a Yamnaya Culture burial (or the related Budzhak culture depending on the paper you read) from Alkaliya, Ukraine. It is incredibly interesting in that it has some Corded Ware analogies (flint axe) but also seems to be an archer's burial complete with a quiver and, based on the drawing, perhaps a bow(?). The crescent shape at the top of the quiver is similar to the decorated boar's tusk pendants that are so common in the eastern Bell Beaker province. Some have speculated that the decorated boar's tusks are indeed parts of a quiver...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Alkaliya_Yamnaya_Burial.png

Very interesting... so it would be useful to test that skeleton from Alkaliya...

MitchellSince1893
06-23-2017, 10:03 PM
Thanks... but... are you sure? Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys doesn't give RISE563 as U152+... And Altenmarkt (Osterhofen) is on the Danube river...

Probably, but I'm not sure, the oldest is that from Hungary (I2365), or that from France (I3875)...

It's Richard Rocca's RISE563 analysis in 2015

So far, it looks like RISE563 cannot be classified as anything but U152+. There are many positions that have no data, but where they do exist, they do not match any known SNPs below U152.http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand&p=90402&viewfull=1#post90402

MitchellSince1893
06-23-2017, 11:32 PM
Here is a Yamnaya Culture burial (or the related Budzhak culture depending on the paper you read) from Alkaliya, Ukraine. It is incredibly interesting in that it has some Corded Ware analogies (flint axe) but also seems to be an archer's burial complete with a quiver and, based on the drawing, perhaps a bow(?). The crescent shape at the top of the quiver is similar to the decorated boar's tusk pendants that are so common in the eastern Bell Beaker province. Some have speculated that the decorated boar's tusks are indeed parts of a quiver...


Richard I came across an old post of your's from 2015

The earliest branches of U152 probably expanded somewhere in coastal SE France or NW Italy during the Late Copper Age. From there, there was a secondary expansion that occurred during the Bell Beaker "reflux" period. This expansion probably gave rise to Z36 somewhere in the central Alpine passes between Italy and Switzerland and L2 somewhere in the Eastern Bell Beaker Province (S. Germany, E. Switzerland, Bohemia, Hungary)...
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand&p=6230&viewfull=1#post6230

And this from your first post in this thread

In my opinion, all of these data points make the western-most periphery of Corded Ware the front-runner for finding not only the earliest R-U106, but also the predecessor of R-P312 Bell Beakers. A peripheral Corded Ware "province" in the Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland would certainly give enough time for the diverse groups we see by about 2400 BC to form.... since P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152 > L2 was already present from France to Hungary

Based on the recent ancient dna samples and your research associated with this thread, has this altered your thought on where the "earliest branches of U152 probably expanded" from? Specifically are you still thinking it's in western Europe (e.g. Eastern France, Switzerland, Low Countries), or are you leaning towards a more eastern location (e.g. Moravia, Poland, or Ukraine)?

R.Rocca
06-24-2017, 12:07 PM
Richard I came across an old post of your's from 2015

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand&p=6230&viewfull=1#post6230

And this from your first post in this thread

Based on the recent ancient dna samples and your research associated with this thread, has this altered your thought on where the "earliest branches of U152 probably expanded" from? Specifically are you still thinking it's in western Europe (e.g. Eastern France, Switzerland, Low Countries), or are you leaning towards a more eastern location (e.g. Moravia, Poland, or Ukraine)?

The quote from 2015 was based on my assumption that R-L11 men came from the east and into Iberia and from there P312 branched out somewhere around SE France/NW Italy in the form of U152. Olalde et al has shown that P312 could not have expanded out of Iberia. Also, the P312 Bell Beaker that does show up in Iberia and Italy is heavily diluted of steppe ancestry. So, while I've been beating the Begleitkeramik = R-L2+ drums for years, it could very well be that other R-U152 branches expanded from there as well. Also remember that Olalde's automated SNP caller did not produce any data for U152 save for one single negative result on an L21+ sample, so I fully expect that many more of the Bell Beaker East samples will also show U152+ when the BAMs are analyzed.

Isidro
06-24-2017, 12:38 PM
The Olalde et ALL 2017 paper has been a major shift in thinking once again and I suspect it won't be the last one pointing the origin of P312 in multiple directions including the Corded Ware, a reasonable presumption and an acceptable replacement to many for the Steppe R1b-L23 direct road to W Europe.
There are a few things that can be said solidly about R1b-L23+:

All Bell Beakers in Europe are not R1b+, some are L23, and as it turns out as important as it might have been to the British Isles migration very limited in scope and clearly show that Bell Beakers were a lot more than just R1b+P312, so the round peg that tried to fit the expansion of Bell Beakers exclusively with P312 chimera should be ruled out already. It was a decade run that has run dry but it seems like a lost limb people still like feeling there is something there.

rms2
06-24-2017, 01:00 PM
Huh?

By far nearly all the Kurgan Bell Beaker samples have been R1b at least and most have been R1b-P312. The ones that were not R1b had, with one exception, low to no steppe dna.

The following is from page 66 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:



Outside Iberia, Beaker Complex individuals present a striking uniformity in paternal lineages, with 37 out of 44 males (excluding relatives) belonging to haplogroup R1b (Supplementary Table 3). Where R1b downstream mutations could be determined (n=22), all but one were derived for the R1b-S116 mutation.

And Corded Ware is a steppe culture, by the way.

R.Rocca
06-24-2017, 01:03 PM
The Olalde et ALL 2017 paper has been a major shift in thinking once again and I suspect it won't be the last one pointing the origin of P312 in multiple directions including the Corded Ware, a reasonable presumption and an acceptable replacement to many for the Steppe R1b-L23 direct road to W Europe.
There are a few things that can be said solidly about R1b-L23+:

All Bell Beakers in Europe are not R1b+, some are L23, and as it turns out as important as it might have been to the British Isles migration very limited in scope and clearly show that Bell Beakers were a lot more than just R1b+P312, so the round peg that tried to fit the expansion of Bell Beakers exclusively with P312 chimera should be ruled out already. It was a decade run that has run dry but it seems like a lost limb people still like feeling there is something there.

This is a thread about P312, so of course that is the focus. Many who were for the decade pushing L23's birth and expansion in Iberia from well before Bell Beaker are now limbless.

Isidro
06-24-2017, 01:06 PM
Huh Huh?.
The part of my comment where it states that not all Bell Beakers are R1b-L23 by far, maybe I should simplify it a bit: R1b-L23 caught the wave of Bell Beakers, they were not the originators, nor the metallurgic magicians feats so easily attributed to them, so I don't get not seeing that as clear as day.

Isidro
06-24-2017, 01:10 PM
I don't think you have the right to say (with any substanciated intellectual weight) the final chapter on P312 expansion, and I agree about the Bell Beaker non expansion from Iberia for P312, and unless the Universe has smiled at those P312 tested branches dating 4.500 years ago as actually being founders or close to , it does point to an expansion falling in Neolithic times, details of their route TBD.


This is a thread about P312, so of course that is the focus. Many who were for the decade pushing L23's birth and expansion in Iberia from well before Bell Beaker are now limbless.

rms2
06-24-2017, 01:13 PM
Huh Huh?.
The part of my comment where it states that not all Bell Beakers are R1b-L23 by far, maybe I should simplify it a bit: R1b-L23 caught the wave of Bell Beakers, they were not the originators, nor the metallurgic magicians feats so easily attributed to them, so I don't get not seeing that as clear as day.

R1b-L23, which in the case of Bell Beaker largely means R1b-P312, was evidently not in on early Iberian Bell Beaker, but was pretty obviously carried by the men who were in on the beginnings of Kurgan Bell Beaker, or Bell Beaker East, for those who prefer that name.

And that kind of steppe-culture-Bell-Beaker evidently emerged from the Eastern European complex that involved Corded Ware, Yamnaya and a bunch of other spin-off and subsidiary cultures.

rms2
06-24-2017, 01:25 PM
This is a thread about P312, so of course that is the focus. Many who were for the decade pushing L23's birth and expansion in Iberia from well before Bell Beaker are now limbless.

Well, legless at least. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcrOPgDfiPA

R.Rocca
06-24-2017, 02:27 PM
I don't think you have the right to say (with any substanciated intellectual weight) the final chapter on P312 expansion, and I agree about the Bell Beaker non expansion from Iberia for P312, and unless the Universe has smiled at those P312 tested branches dating 4.500 years ago as actually being founders or close to , it does point to an expansion falling in Neolithic times, details of their route TBD.

I beg to differ. As per the rules that govern this site (and likely the laws that govern the server where it is hosted), I do have the "right" to speculate on what those chapters are... and it's the reason why I started this thread. If you don't enjoy the thread, then you have the right to ignore it. If I provide speculative insights on what those next chapters may look like and I am proven wrong, then so be it.... and I'll be the first one to admit when I'm wrong as I've done plenty of times and will so again.

kinman
06-24-2017, 03:42 PM
So, while I've been beating the Begleitkeramik = R-L2+ drums for years, it could very well be that other R-U152 branches expanded from there as well.

Hi Richard,
When you say "expanded from there as well", I'm curious how big an area you mean by "there". I see L2 as originating near the Danube River in southern Germany, but should I perhaps be looking at a larger area?

Romilius
06-24-2017, 04:36 PM
I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...

MitchellSince1893
06-24-2017, 04:49 PM
The quote from 2015 was based on my assumption that R-L11 men came from the east and into Iberia and from there P312 branched out somewhere around SE France/NW Italy in the form of U152. Olalde et al has shown that P312 could not have expanded out of Iberia. Also, the P312 Bell Beaker that does show up in Iberia and Italy is heavily diluted of steppe ancestry. So, while I've been beating the Begleitkeramik = R-L2+ drums for years, it could very well be that other R-U152 branches expanded from there as well. Also remember that Olalde's automated SNP caller did not produce any data for U152 save for one single negative result on an L21+ sample, so I fully expect that many more of the Bell Beaker East samples will also show U152+ when the BAMs are analyzed.
I eagerly await the results.

I guess my question to you, (which I understand is only an educated opinion, based on the available data), are you thinking as you mentioned in your first post of this thread

In my opinion, all of these data points make the western-most periphery of Corded Ware the front-runner for finding not only the earliest R-U106, but also the predecessor of R-P312 Bell Beakers. A peripheral Corded Ware "province" in the Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland would certainly give enough time for the diverse groups we see by about 2400 BC to form.... since P312 > Z40481 > ZZ11 > U152 > L2 was already present from France to Hungary

Or has your opinion shifted further east based on your research on the Budzhak culture? I understand that we are potentially talking about two separate issues: Origin vs rapid growth, i.e. an origin in eastern Europe, followed by migration then rapid growth from a point near Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland?

rms2
06-24-2017, 05:24 PM
I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...

Weren't those pretty late? I don't recall the dates, but I seem to recall it was mid to late 2nd millennium BC. That's too late to attach much significance to their lack of CHG.

David Mc
06-24-2017, 10:37 PM
Well, legless at least. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcrOPgDfiPA

I see what you did there. :-)

ffoucart
06-24-2017, 10:55 PM
I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...

We'll see. But the Steppe component is defined as basically a mix of EHG+CHG (half each). So if there is no CHG, this is not Steppe admixture.

rms2
06-25-2017, 11:25 AM
I see what you did there. :-)

Yes, for those who have been around dna discussion forums awhile, some will remember the metaphor of the R1b FC Ice Age Refuge as "The Zombie that Refused to Die". When Rich talked about those who have argued for the past decade for an Iberian origin for L23 being limbless, I immediately thought of that "Bicycle Girl" segment of the very first episode of The Walking Dead. I realized she had not lost all her limbs, only her legs, but that seemed appropriate, since that would enable her to still reach a computer keyboard and type.

If I knew how to play around with video clips, I would dub in a voice for Bicycle Girl growling and gasping out, "Curse you, Olalde! Curse you!" ;)

R.Rocca
06-25-2017, 12:25 PM
I'm even more persuaded that one of the answers lies in Martiniano's paper about West Iberia... but it seems nobody is interested in...

I recall that the steppe admixture was not high in BA samples... and they lack CHG component. So, a question must pop up: "How can they have a steppe admixture, if that steppe admixture is built with CHG component and those samples lack it?"...

The CHG situation is interesting, but not just in Bell Beaker samples. In their K10 figure, it looks like EHG is mixed in with WHG, so little can be said about the the EHG/CHG split. However, German Bell Beakers seem to have less (half?) the amount of CHG of German Corded Ware samples. Also, German Corded Ware samples seem to have about double(?) the CHG that Estonian Corded Ware samples have. Without seeing the EHG/CHG breakdown it is hard to draw many conclusions for Bell Beaker, but it makes one wonder if the first Bell Beaker P312 didn't come from an area where the ratio was higher in EHG.

rms2
06-25-2017, 12:28 PM
We'll see. But the Steppe component is defined as basically a mix of EHG+CHG (half each). So if there is no CHG, this is not Steppe admixture.

I went back and looked really quickly at that paper. A couple of things struck me: 1) No R1b-L23 (no R1b at all actually) in its Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples; 2) R1b-V88 and R1b-P312 in the Middle Bronze Age; and 3) the dates for the Middle Bronze Age remains are 1740-1430 BC.

The midpoint for those Middle Bronze Age remains is 1585 BC. That is about a thousand years after the spread of non-Iberian Bell Beaker, which evidently was the source of R1b-P312. That is too late for those Portuguese Middle Bronze Age remains to have much to tell us about the origin of R1b-P312, except the general thing that none was found among the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberian remains tested in that study.

We know the older R1b-P312 Bell Beaker remains all had CHG.

Since that paper has only appeared as a pre-print, it is possible the lack of CHG was an error, but even if it was not, a thousand years is time enough to alter autosomal inputs pretty significantly, especially if the CHG level wasn't all that high to begin with.

Romilius
06-25-2017, 02:32 PM
I went back and looked really quickly at that paper. A couple of things struck me: 1) No R1b-L23 (no R1b at all actually) in its Neolithic and Chalcolithic samples; 2) R1b-V88 and R1b-P312 in the Middle Bronze Age; and 3) the dates for the Middle Bronze Age remains are 1740-1430 BC.

The midpoint for those Middle Bronze Age remains is 1585 BC. That is about a thousand years after the spread of non-Iberian Bell Beaker, which evidently was the source of R1b-P312. That is too late for those Portuguese Middle Bronze Age remains to have much to tell us about the origin of R1b-P312, except the general thing that none was found among the Neolithic and Chalcolithic Iberian remains tested in that study.

We know the older R1b-P312 Bell Beaker remains all had CHG.

Since that paper has only appeared as a pre-print, it is possible the lack of CHG was an error, but even if it was not, a thousand years is time enough to alter autosomal inputs pretty significantly, especially if the CHG level wasn't all that high to begin with.

R-V88 in Middle Bronze age?

rms2
06-25-2017, 05:17 PM
R-V88 in Middle Bronze age?

I just looked quickly and saw R1b1a2, which I believe is the current longhand for R1b-V88.

Romilius
06-25-2017, 07:57 PM
I just looked quickly and saw R1b1a2, which I believe is the current longhand for R1b-V88.

But... from Martiniano's paper?

rms2
06-25-2017, 08:06 PM
But... from Martiniano's paper?

Yes. Like I said, a quick look. As I recall, R1b1a2 used to be the longhand for R1b-M269, so that might be what was meant rather than V88.

rms2
06-25-2017, 09:27 PM
I mentioned this over on another thread, but it's appropriate for repeating here. The pottery of that branch of Corded Ware called Protruding Foot Beakers sure looks a lot like Bell Beaker pottery.

17200

R.Rocca
06-26-2017, 03:31 PM
I guess my question to you, (which I understand is only an educated opinion, based on the available data), are you thinking as you mentioned in your first post of this thread

Or has your opinion shifted further east based on your research on the Budzhak culture? I understand that we are potentially talking about two separate issues: Origin vs rapid growth, i.e. an origin in eastern Europe, followed by migration then rapid growth from a point near Low Countries, Alsace or Switzerland?

With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).

anglesqueville
06-26-2017, 04:36 PM
I mentioned this over on another thread, but it's appropriate for repeating here. The pottery of that branch of Corded Ware called Protruding Foot Beakers sure looks a lot like Bell Beaker pottery.

17200

17212 .... Cucuteni. Don't want to suggest anything ( of course ;) )

rms2
06-26-2017, 05:09 PM
17212 .... Cucuteni. Don't want to suggest anything ( of course ;) )

Could be a stylistic influence on Yamnaya, but I don't think Cucuteni people used cord impressions on their pottery. PFB were made by Single Grave Corded Ware people in northern Europe nowhere near Cucuteni-Tripolye, so the influence would have to be indirect.

Romilius
06-26-2017, 05:14 PM
With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).

Interesting... I was wondering if Catacomb culture has anything to do with expansion of P312 or L51 from east to west.

anglesqueville
06-26-2017, 06:32 PM
Could be a stylistic influence on Yamnaya, but I don't think Cucuteni people used cord impressions on their pottery. PFB were made by Single Grave Corded Ware people in northern Europe nowhere near Cucuteni-Tripolye, so the influence would have to be indirect.

Yes, that was at most a very adventurous ... insinuation (?). Afaik Cucuteni ceramics were not impressed at all. The idea of a stylistic influence on Yamna, or better pre-Kurgan cultures ( likely Sredny-Stog) is of course what I have in my head. But nothing really serious.

R.Rocca
06-26-2017, 07:03 PM
The collective burials of Iberian Bell Beaker contained non-R1b males. If we can assume with some level of confidence that the earliest R-L51+ Bell Beaker men would have maintained the Yamnaya (or Corded Ware) tradition of single burial, then radiocarbon dates of single graves from short lived materials are of the utmost importance. When searching the RADON radiocarbon database by just these two parameters (http://radon.ufg.uni-kiel.de), the oldest radiocarbon dates seem to be from Alsace, NE France and the Low Countries. I mapped them to here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en&hl=en&authuser=0&authuser=0&mid=1o7PtB8X7_R-eb0wfxev16ESgt7c&ll=47.33847252491671%2C1.1364057992218477&z=5

I stopped at the 3940+/-50 BP date which is around the date of the oldest P312 thus far. As can be seen, the Samborzec sample from the Kiev lab is an outlier and is likely due to a lab error as the Polish authors have pointed out. I don't know what the sampling bias is (if any) of the database, but the distribution sure is telling. Perhaps its time to dust off and re-read up on articles on "Das Dutch Model"??? ;)

TigerMW
06-26-2017, 07:06 PM
With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).
I'm trying to find the details of this but some place Heyd stated that the Rhenish area was a core area of the East Bell Beakers but I could not understand the chronology of this "core" area. It is interesting that there is more WHG in the Rhenish Bell Beakers.

I just don't see how L151 comes out of the Mediterranean areas. Some still think Italy.

alan
06-26-2017, 07:43 PM
It does seem possible that women travelled in the opposite direction along the same route as the Grand Pressigny flint daggers from the Loire area which got as far as the Swiss Alps and the Rhine (actually the Weser). That network stretched south to the French-Spanish border too and in theory females carrying pottery traditions could have moved along that network there from as far as from Holland, north Germany and Switzerland (CW areas) Perhaps such ripples could explain both aspects of the genesis of the beaker pot shape and perhaps the corded beakers in east and north Iberia (now known to also earlier than elsewhere) are echos of this. I suspect the badly understood and poorly dated archaeology of NW and Atlantic France might be hiding missing links

alan
06-26-2017, 09:19 PM
It does seem possible that women travelled in the opposite direction along the same route as the Grand Pressigny flint daggers from the Loire area which got as far as the Swiss Alps and the Rhine (actually the Weser). That network stretched south to the French-Spanish border too and in theory females carrying pottery traditions could have moved along that network there from as far as from Holland, north Germany and Switzerland (CW areas) Perhaps such ripples could explain both aspects of the genesis of the beaker pot shape and perhaps the corded beakers in east and north Iberia (now known to also earlier than elsewhere) are echos of this. I suspect the badly understood and poorly dated archaeology of NW and Atlantic France might be hiding missing links

Just a thought but in case where objects seem to be passing in one direction but there appears to be nothing reciprocal going the opposite direction,the possibility this imbalance was filled by wives should be considered. Interestingly the earliest Brehon law tracts on marriage in Ireland show that unlike dowries where the bride's family did the paying out when their daughter married, the Irish had a system where the contract was sealed by the prospective groom paying his desired bride's father coibche which was payment equal to half of the latter's honour price in goods. This put responsibility on the bride's father and wider kin to make sure the contract was upheld or they would have to pay compensation. That legal responsibility falling on relatives is very typical of Brehon law which often was structured so the wider kin had an incentive to police wayward kin. Anyway the key thing is that goods flowed from the groom to the prospective wife's father before the bride moved to her husband's house. Anyway if you apply that to archaeology then goods will flow in the opposite direction to the wife (who was usually the potter). The higher up the social scale the greater the distance the wife would usually move.. anyway my suspicion is in the beaker period metal may have been a typical payment by the husband to be and when he acquired his wife her pottery skills came with her

anglesqueville
06-26-2017, 09:36 PM
The collective burials of Iberian Bell Beaker contained non-R1b males. If we can assume with some level of confidence that the earliest R-L51+ Bell Beaker men would have maintained the Yamnaya (or Corded Ware) tradition of single burial, then radiocarbon dates of single graves from short lived materials are of the utmost importance. When searching the RADON radiocarbon database by just these two parameters (http://radon.ufg.uni-kiel.de), the oldest radiocarbon dates seem to be from Alsace, NE France and the Low Countries. I mapped them to here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?hl=en&hl=en&authuser=0&authuser=0&mid=1o7PtB8X7_R-eb0wfxev16ESgt7c&ll=47.33847252491671%2C1.1364057992218477&z=5

I stopped at the 3940+/-50 BP date which is around the date of the oldest P312 thus far. As can be seen, the Samborzec sample from the Kiev lab is an outlier and is likely due to a lab error as the Polish authors have pointed out. I don't know what the sampling bias is (if any) of the database, but the distribution sure is telling. Perhaps its time to dust off and re-read up on articles on "Das Dutch Model"??? ;)

The little ;) maybe indicates that you might not be fully serious. For me it's a very serious proposal. For a modest amateur like me, the iberian dogma seems now to be stripped of all of its contents.

rms2
06-27-2017, 12:22 AM
The little ;) maybe indicates that you might not be fully serious. For me it's a very serious proposal. For a modest amateur like me, the iberian dogma seems now to be stripped of all of its contents.

I think Rich was serious, too, and the Dutch model is making a comeback, at least for eastern Beaker.

His "mad dash" idea I think is very insightful.

R.Rocca
06-27-2017, 12:36 AM
I think Rich was serious, too, and the Dutch model is making a comeback, at least for eastern Beaker.

His "mad dash" idea I think is very insightful.

Correct... I was being serious, but I put a wink there because as you know, the Dutch Model has been much maligned. It could be that all, some or none of the Dutch Model is correct, but certainly something worth taking a second look at.

rms2
06-27-2017, 12:43 AM
This is off topic slightly, but I just wanted to say these are fun times. Thank God I have lived to see the old crap from ten or so years ago go under.

rms2
06-27-2017, 01:25 AM
With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).

This is one of the most insightful posts I have seen. It makes all kinds of sense.

How else does one explain the steppe ancestry in Dutch and British Bell Beakers exceeding that of more eastern Bell Beakers?

Apparently there was a rush from Central Europe to the Netherlands and on to Britain, which explains the Amesbury Archer and his likely son, the Companion.

Watch new ancient y-dna results support this in coming months.

ffoucart
06-27-2017, 05:55 AM
About dowry and women, a "dowries circle" has been suggested to explain some marriages in XVIIth and XVIIIth centuries France: when a bride was given dowry, a woman from the groom family married in the 1st bride's family, or in a third family, and was given the same amount of goods (more or less). If the marriage intervened in a third family, the first family was given a bride from the third one with the same amount of goods as dowry.
Like this, no estate or wealth was transferred to another family as the debts were compensating each other.
I've seen this many times myself in many place as several families intermarried often on different generations.

This kind of tradition is not considered as specific to France or recent.

R.Rocca
06-27-2017, 07:24 PM
Here is another interesting graphic from "Upending a Totality: Re-evaluating Corded Ware Variability in Late Neolithic Europe" which I marked up:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/AOO_Chronology.png

As can be seen, Bell Beaker starts to show up in almost all Corded Ware regions by roughly 2400 BC, but All Over Ornamented Beakers appear much earlier in the Netherlands (~2600 BC). Here is a distribution of AOO beaker sites in NE France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/AOO_Distribution.png

The likelihood that Corded Ware (aka Single Grave Culture) in the Netherlands is R1a like Corded Ware further east is highly unlikely, as its modern day frequency is only 2.4% (Genome of the Netherlands). One would think that the Germanic expansions would only have added to its frequency there. It is likelier IMO that most, if not all of Corded Ware in the Netherlands was R-L11, with R-U106 of course being the leading candidate. However, that begs the question: If it was mostly or all R-U106, then why didn't a single sample get swept into Britain during the Bell Beaker expansion? Remember, Britain's Bell Beakers are AOO and have their closest parallels in Rhenish AOO Beakers from the Low Countries.

rms2
06-27-2017, 07:55 PM
. . .

The likelihood that Corded Ware (aka Single Grave Culture) in the Netherlands is R1a like Corded Ware further east is highly unlikely, as its modern day frequency is only 2.4% (Genome of the Netherlands). One would think that the Germanic expansions would only have added to its frequency there. It is likelier IMO that most, if not all of Corded Ware in the Netherlands was R-L11, with R-U106 of course being the leading candidate. However, that begs the question: If it was mostly or all R-U106, then why didn't a single sample get swept into Britain during the Bell Beaker expansion? Remember, Britain's Bell Beakers are AOO and have their closest parallels in Rhenish AOO Beakers from the Low Countries.

Another great post. Thanks.

I would really like to see some Corded Ware y-dna from that far west.

I doubt U106 had much of a presence there that long ago. Look at the one U106 result from Olalde et al: it was very late for Bell Beaker (1880-1650 BC), looked like part of an intrusive burial in an older BB area, and the U106 man and his female counterpart were buried lying on their backs, non-BB style. All the older, more classically BB burials there were P312.

MitchellSince1893
06-27-2017, 08:23 PM
This is off topic slightly, but I just wanted to say these are fun times. Thank God I have lived to see the old crap from ten or so years ago go under.

I was just thinking how far I've come in knowledge of my own paternal line in the last few years.
2012: Before DNA testing, nothing known about paternal line prior to 1893
Today: Good idea where my paternal line was ~1200-1893 AD (most likely England), and 2500-2000 BC (most likely part of the Beaker culture).

I remind myself of this when I'm tempted to get frustrated at the apparent lack of progress of breaking down my 1893 brickwall.

epoch
06-28-2017, 02:27 PM
With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).

Recently (2015) a huge (120 graves) graveyard from the Funnelbeaker culture was found in the Netherlands, in Dalfsen. It dates from that latest phase of TRB in the Netherlands (2900-2700 BC) which is contemporary to the earliest phase of Corded Ware in the Netherlands. Most bodies dissolved in the sandy soils, as usual, but some teeth and one part of a jawbone survived. Currently there seems to be an effort to extract DNA from it. I got this all from news papers, can't find more. But it would be quite interesting if it yielded something useful.

EDIT: Dutch article, maybe yields something readable through translators
http://historiek.net/spectaculair-grafveld-uit-de-steentijd-ontdekt-in-dalfsen/50295/

alan
06-28-2017, 03:38 PM
Here is another interesting graphic from "Upending a Totality: Re-evaluating Corded Ware Variability in Late Neolithic Europe" which I marked up:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/AOO_Chronology.png

As can be seen, Bell Beaker starts to show up in almost all Corded Ware regions by roughly 2400 BC, but All Over Ornamented Beakers appear much earlier in the Netherlands (~2600 BC). Here is a distribution of AOO beaker sites in NE France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/AOO_Distribution.png

The likelihood that Corded Ware (aka Single Grave Culture) in the Netherlands is R1a like Corded Ware further east is highly unlikely, as its modern day frequency is only 2.4% (Genome of the Netherlands). One would think that the Germanic expansions would only have added to its frequency there. It is likelier IMO that most, if not all of Corded Ware in the Netherlands was R-L11, with R-U106 of course being the leading candidate. However, that begs the question: If it was mostly or all R-U106, then why didn't a single sample get swept into Britain during the Bell Beaker expansion? Remember, Britain's Bell Beakers are AOO and have their closest parallels in Rhenish AOO Beakers from the Low Countries.

A good point that about it being hard to believe in a near 100% replacement of an R1a CW pop in Holland. That would need Holland to have had a rapid change c2800BC which was overturned again around 2500BC. IMO though thereason why U106 is not known in beakers in Britain must be that it was not located in coastal or river mouth locations at crossing points to Britain at the crucial period c 2400-2200BC

epoch
06-28-2017, 04:04 PM
This is off topic slightly, but I just wanted to say these are fun times. Thank God I have lived to see the old crap from ten or so years ago go under.

Harry Fokkens is a Dutch archaeologist with a Late Neolithic specialism. Somewhere in the sixties the Dutch archaeologists started to promote the Dutch Model. There was constant discussion on what was considered continuity and what not. Dutch archaeologists came up with a model of evolution from Protruded Foot Beakers to Bell Beakers which was more or less backed by C14. It got swept away by the Iberian dates, but Harry Fokkens more or less tried to revive it

Harry Fokkens is a co-author of the Olalde paper. Can you imagine how much fun this man has?

epoch
06-28-2017, 04:09 PM
A good point that about it being hard to believe near 100% replacement of an R1a CW pop in Holland. That would need Holland to have had a rapid change c2800BC which was overturned again around 2500BC. IMO though the my reason why U106 is not Knowles beakers must be that it was not located in coastal or river mouth locations at crossing points to Britain at the crucial period c 2400-2200BC

The U106 sample from De Tuithoorn was a bronze age sample, IIRC. Could have come around later.

Net Down G5L
06-28-2017, 04:20 PM
Really excellent and eye-opening post.

Makes me wonder what this upcoming paper might reveal.

Phillip Stockhammer, Corina Knipper, Alissa Mittnik, Ken Massy, Fabian Wittenborn, Stephanie Metz, Steffen Kraus, Ernst Pernicka, Johannes Krause, The Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech Valley: a Bioarchaeological Perspective.



Lech Valley south of Augsburg:

16743

Could this be the most important paper of 2017??
OK not a pan Eurasia set of new genomes but the first of (hopefully) a brand new generation of detailed multi-disciplinary area studies that will complement Olalde / Mathieson pre-prints perfectly. This paper should show us the future for archaeology studies.

Philipp Stockhammer gave an excellent presentation at the Prehistoric Society Europa Conference at the weekend.
The material is partly already published in:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139705 (RC dates and re-calibration of the central European Bronze Age)
and
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/12/15/094243 (Plague paper including Corded and Bell Beaker Y Pestis samples)
also aDNA in Olalde and Mathieson pre-prints.

The main paper is towards final draft and will hopefully be published before the year end in PNAS.

Why so important?
Augsburg area has Corded, Beaker and EBA/MBA cemeteries. They have aDNA results from 19 BB and 64 EBA samples (some BB already published in the above pre-prints). The DNA preservation/extraction is apparently excellent.
There is huge detail of archaeology/environmental/strontium, stable isotope / trace element data as well as the aDNA.

Phillip was VERY protective about the unpublished material so I am limiting what I say.......but here are some tasters to whet your appetite:

- They have such detail that they have constructed "family trees" from the mtDNA and auDNA to the level where they can allegedly identify movement of an individual from one hamlet to another ("marriage"?).
- The isotopic results are awesome and show spectacular, and important, patterns of continuity and movement.
- The BB network seems to have continuity through to the EBA. Lots of interesting detail in the metalwork, external impacts on the Beaker network etc.

Bear in mind I only saw a taster of their information and they have not yet finalised their draft.

Re: This thread....
Phillip suggested that PCA results suggest Corded Ware was present for 400 years without mixing with local farmers. Then the Bell Beaker ideology arrived and changed the dynamic so they suddenly mixed with local farmers. ie Beaker descended directly from Corded (if I understand what he presented correctly).

HOWEVER, if I understand correctly this is based on mtDNA and auDNA only and they have not had Y DNA snp calls for the bulk of their data. This could be a huge mistake especially if their local Corded samples are R1a (I think they have only tested 4 corded samples - non yet published as far as I know...and perhaps the dna preservation not so good???).

But, the archaeology Phillip presented could be interpreted in another way - with R1b BB stock arriving from the Steppe (via the Danube?) some 350-400 years after Corded and setting up in parallel. However, the authors are the ones with access to the detailed evidence..............

NB Johannes Krause is the lead geneticist for the project. Why no Y DNA calls for most of the samples Johannes? Or was the presentation by Philipp erroneous on this point.

alan
06-28-2017, 04:27 PM
Shame Holland is prob the worst country in Europe for bone survival which by the way makes RC dating graves with short life material v hard. This has forced dating by charcoal etc which can come from old heartwood which distorts results. So when lists of gold standard radiocarbon dates for beaker across Europe are drawn up few come from Holland.

alan
06-28-2017, 04:35 PM
The U106 sample from De Tuithoorn was a bronze age sample, IIRC. Could have come around later.

Yep probably did. There was a major change in northern Holland in the early Bronze Age after beaker which suggests influx from the north-east. Perhaps that was the arrival of U106. I think it was something to do with the origins of the Elp culture of Holland east and north of the Rhine but memory is hazy. The Hillversum culture west of the Rhine was different and connected with northern France and England rather than northern Europe east of the Rhine.

alan
06-28-2017, 06:00 PM
Yep probably did. There was a major change in northern Holland in the early Bronze Age after beaker which suggests influx from the north-east. Perhaps that was the arrival of U106. I think it was something to do with the origins of the Elp culture of Holland east and north of the Rhine but memory is hazy. The Hillversum culture west of the Rhine was different and connected with northern France and England rather than northern Europe east of the Rhine.

If I was to guess, U106 may have arrived in north-east Holland by c2000-1800BC but did not reach the part of Holland west and south of it (note the modern Rhine mouth is different). I suspect then U106 was therefore in the Elp culture which was connected with north Germany and Scandinavia and the Nordic Bronze network. but not in the Hillversum culture which was closely linked to northern France and Britain. Personally I think that the Rhine formed the west boundary of U106 from 2000/1800BC to 200BC.The coast west of it must have been dominated by L21 from 2400-1000BC and later. So for a long time there may have been two maritories - L21 controlling the area between the Rhine and Brittany and the isles and U106 between the Rhine and Scandinavia. By the way the western group persistently show evidence of more advanced boat technology (sewn plank c2000BC,adoption of sail around 1000BC, Veneti ships in Iron Age) than the east (glorified logboats, no sewn plank, very late adopters of sail) and it was only in the end of the Roman era this started to reverse

epoch
06-28-2017, 06:50 PM
If I was to guess, U106 may have arrived in north-east Holland by c2000-1800BC but did not reach the part of Holland west and south of it (note the modern Rhine mouth is different). I suspect then U106 was therefore in the Elp culture which was connected with north Germany and Scandinavia and the Nordic Bronze network. but not in the Hillversum culture which was closely linked to northern France and Britain. Personally I think that the Rhine formed the west boundary of U106 from 2000/1800BC to 200BC.The coast west of it must have been dominated by L21 from 2400-1000BC and later. So for a long time there may have been two maritories - L21 controlling the area between the Rhine and Brittany and the isles and U106 between the Rhine and Scandinavia. By the way the western group persistently show evidence of more advanced boat technology (sewn plank c2000BC,adoption of sail around 1000BC, Veneti ships in Iron Age) than the east (glorified logboats, no sewn plank, very late adopters of sail) and it was only in the end of the Roman era this started to reverse

There are two interpretations of the arrival of the Elp culture. Migration and adaptation. I know there are some examples of clear continuity where the typical burial of BB changed to lying on the back, the ELP way of burying, clearly followed BB burials. But the pottery change is huge. From the fine beakers to Kummerkeramik.

What I find surprising is that I know of no good predecessor of Kummerkermamik. Although Vlaardingen culture also has rather sloppy pottery such as this:

http://www.regiocanons.nl/beeld/Zuid-Holland/Zuid-Holland/_250/2.aardewerken-pot-Vlaardingencultuur-vrijs.png

Vlaardingen culture is quite near, is reputed to be a continuation of Swifterband, the Dutch Ertebolla offshoot and therefore might have that much needed extra WHG that also makes Globular Amphora such a nice admixture candidate.

R.Rocca
06-28-2017, 07:37 PM
By the way, I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge > Bell Beaker expansion also lost another battle with the Olalde pre-print... the very low frequency of mtDNA haplogroup H is shocking in English Bell Beakers (1 of 19 samples), in England-EBA (2 of 13 samples), in Scotland-EBA (0 of 4 samples) and Wales_BA (0 of 2 samples).

rms2
06-28-2017, 08:16 PM
I wish they would test some remains from the Single Grave culture (Corded Ware) in the Netherlands. I have high hopes for that upcoming paper on the Lech Valley, but Rich's argument that R1b ought to be present in Dutch Corded Ware makes me wish we could get some y-dna from that direction.

alan
06-28-2017, 08:25 PM
I wish they would test some remains from the Single Grave culture (Corded Ware) in the Netherlands. I have high hopes for that upcoming paper on the Lech Valley, but Rich's argument that R1b ought to be present in Dutch Corded Ware makes me wish we could get some y-dna from that direction.

Unfortunately much of Holland has terrible sandy acid soil conditions which are awful for bone preservation . Acid conditions not only disolve bone but destroys DNA (as does peat bog - also acidic).

rms2
06-28-2017, 09:45 PM
Unfortunately much of Holland has terrible sandy acid soil conditions which are awful for bone preservation . Acid conditions not only disolve bone but destroys DNA (as does peat bog - also acidic).

They should be able to get something. Olalde et al managed nine genomes from Oostwoud-Tuithoorn, West Friesland.

rms2
06-28-2017, 09:53 PM
They should be able to get something. Olalde et al managed nine genomes from Oostwoud-Tuithoorn, West Friesland.

Sounds like the area where they got those nine would be a good place to try for some Corded Ware genomes. From page 16 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:



In 1956 and 1957, two burial mounds were excavated at Oostwoud-Tuithoorn, with additional research in 1963, 1966 and 1978. Both burial mounds were located on a levee or crevasse splay of a large tidal creek system, about 40 km inland. The silt and clay sediments in which the skeletons were embedded provided an excellent context for bone preservation. After approximately 800 BCE the area was submerged until the building of dykes after 1000 CE. There is plenty of settlement evidence in the area from Late Vlaardingen/ Late Corded Ware groups, but few Bell Beaker associated remains. The Oostwoud-Tuithoorn burials are in that sense unique, even though they probably represent a much more extensive but difficult to detect settled landscape.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-28-2017, 09:54 PM
The Netherlands has a nicely defined sequence : Swifterband-TRB-Vlaardingen- CWC-BB

Even a few burials will suffice, making a great PHD project for some young scholar.

rms2
06-28-2017, 10:15 PM
Here is something I just noticed, orientation-wise, about the P312 Dutch Bell Beaker burials, from page 16 of the Supplementary Info:



The male individuals were all buried on their left side, facing south.

To be buried on one's left side facing south means his head is in the east and feet in the west. That is an east-west, Corded Ware orientation, right? The standard Bell Beaker orientation was north-south.

From pages 16-17:



The three females were buried on the right side, facing west or north.

The female or females on her/their right side(s) facing west had to be oriented standard BB fashion: north-south.

R.Rocca
06-29-2017, 01:39 AM
Sounds like the area where they got those nine would be a good place to try for some Corded Ware genomes. From page 16 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:

The testing on petrous bones has been a real boon for quality... one resolved to U106, and the other four resolved to P312.

lgmayka
06-29-2017, 02:07 AM
I was just thinking how far I've come in knowledge of my own paternal line in the last few years.
2012: Before DNA testing, nothing known about paternal line prior to 1893
Today: Good idea where my paternal line was ~1200-1893 AD (most likely England), and 2500-2000 BC (most likely part of the Beaker culture).

I remind myself of this when I'm tempted to get frustrated at the apparent lack of progress of breaking down my 1893 brickwall.
And just for contrast, I can reasonably state that I know no more about my patrilineage than I did 11 years ago, when Ken Nordtvedt classified me as I2a-Dinaric.

The next YFull haplotree will continue to classify me as a singleton of the I2a-Dinaric clade, which will presumably be renamed I-YP189 or some such. New entry YF09727 splits the old I-CTS10228 level: He tested negative for at least 6 of the SNPs currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion.

rms2
06-29-2017, 03:14 AM
And just for contrast, I can reasonably state that I know no more about my patrilineage than I did 11 years ago, when Ken Nordtvedt classified me as I2a-Dinaric.

The next YFull haplotree will continue to classify me as a singleton of the I2a-Dinaric clade, which will presumably be renamed I-YP189 or some such. New entry YF09727 splits the old I-CTS10228 level: He tested negative for at least 6 of the SNPs currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion.

But you already knew a lot about who your European y-dna ancestors were and where they came from, right?

Those of us brick-walled on this side of the Atlantic are able to learn a lot just by the y-dna matches we get, since we know so little to begin with. I still cannot get past my y-dna third great grandfather and Wheeling, West Virginia, 1804, but now I am pretty sure my immigrant y-dna ancestor was from Wales, and I have an actual pool of likely suspects, one of whom was my fourth great grandfather.

razyn
06-29-2017, 03:55 AM
Wheeling was just plain Virginia in 1804, not that you don't know that, but it could confuse others to write it that way so I just mention it.

rms2
06-29-2017, 03:59 AM
Wheeling was just plain Virginia in 1804, not that you don't know that, but it could confuse others to write it that way so I just mention it.

Yeah, I knew it, but I have written "part of Virginia back then" in parentheses so many times I am tired of it and just thought I would leave it at West Virginia, which is the state it's in now. It's a little like talking about Bell Beaker people living in Germany. Most of us realize there was no Germany in the 3rd millennium BC, so we should not have to repeat that caveat constantly or be forced to always write "what is now Germany". You know, it's just simpler to write "German Bell Beaker" rather than to be forced to be hyper-correct and have to write "Bell Beaker in what is now Germany".

If I write "Wheeling, Virginia" because it was part of Virginia when my third great grandfather was born there in 1804, I will either have to include a note that Wheeling is part of West Virginia now or await someone pointing out the obvious. Same thing if I do the reverse and write "Wheeling, West Virginia". I have to include a note letting everyone know that I know it was part of Virginia back then or await the inevitable correction. I wish he had just been born in Pittsburgh.

Thank God my second great grandfather was born in Beaver County, Pennsylvania (part of Pennsylvania back then). ;)

MitchellSince1893
06-29-2017, 04:35 AM
I guess technically my ancestors born prior to 1712 in present day North or South Carolina, were actually born in the Carolina Colony. Never really thought about that before. They are just listed as from NC or SC in my tree software, even though neither existed.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-29-2017, 04:46 AM
And just for contrast, I can reasonably state that I know no more about my patrilineage than I did 11 years ago, when Ken Nordtvedt classified me as I2a-Dinaric.

The next YFull haplotree will continue to classify me as a singleton of the I2a-Dinaric clade, which will presumably be renamed I-YP189 or some such. New entry YF09727 splits the old I-CTS10228 level: He tested negative for at least 6 of the SNPs currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion.

He's French !

alan
06-29-2017, 08:25 AM
Here is something I just noticed, orientation-wise, about the P312 Dutch Bell Beaker burials, from page 16 of the Supplementary Info:



To be buried on one's left side facing south means his head is in the east and feet in the west. That is an east-west, Corded Ware orientation, right? The standard Bell Beaker orientation was north-south.

From pages 16-17:



The female or females on her/their right side(s) facing west had to be oriented standard BB fashion: north-south.

This is also true of beaker burials with AOC beakers along the east coast of northern England and Scotland.

alan
06-29-2017, 08:37 AM
Sounds like the area where they got those nine would be a good place to try for some Corded Ware genomes. From page 16 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:

I hazily recall one of the 2 big books on bell beakers that came out in the last 3 years had a chapter on Dutch beakers that discussed the way beakers and CW had ecologically contrasting niches. It may be then that the beaker burials fall into areas with good preservation conditions while CW ones fall into the acid soil areas.

alan
06-29-2017, 08:58 AM
Sounds like the area where they got those nine would be a good place to try for some Corded Ware genomes. From page 16 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:

I hazily recall one of the 2 big books on bell beakers that came out in the last 3 years had a chapter on Dutch beakers that discussed the way beakers and CW had ecologically contrasting niches. It may be then that the beaker burials fall into areas with good preservation conditions while CW ones fall into the acid soil areas.

Michał
06-29-2017, 10:50 AM
And just for contrast, I can reasonably state that I know no more about my patrilineage than I did 11 years ago, when Ken Nordtvedt classified me as I2a-Dinaric.

The next YFull haplotree will continue to classify me as a singleton of the I2a-Dinaric clade, which will presumably be renamed I-YP189 or some such. New entry YF09727 splits the old I-CTS10228 level: He tested negative for at least 6 of the SNPs currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion.
Today, you have much more data indicating that your I2a-Din (I-YP189) subclade or the parental clade I-CTS10228 originate from Western Europe rather than descending from a local Eastern European (Mesolithic/Neolithic) population.

epoch
06-29-2017, 11:33 AM
I hazily recall one of the 2 big books on bell beakers that came out in the last 3 years had a chapter on Dutch beakers that discussed the way beakers and CW had ecologically contrasting niches. It may be then that the beaker burials fall into areas with good preservation conditions while CW ones fall into the acid soil areas.

The West-Frisian floodplains that yielded the Tuithoorn samples also contain CW settlements, as well as Vlaardingen and even TRB. However, I am not sure if they found preserved human remains.

EDIT: A full skeleton of a woman from the Single Grave culture was found in Sijbeskarspel in 1989, and in 1990 a male skeleton from 2500 BC was found in Hoogwoud, both West-Friesland.
On the man, who wasn't buried in typical CW style: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cees_de_steentijdman
The woman was, though: http://onh.nl/nl-NL/verhaal/19/west-friesland-bewoning-in-de-prehistorie

rms2
06-29-2017, 11:39 AM
I hazily recall one of the 2 big books on bell beakers that came out in the last 3 years had a chapter on Dutch beakers that discussed the way beakers and CW had ecologically contrasting niches. It may be then that the beaker burials fall into areas with good preservation conditions while CW ones fall into the acid soil areas.

Except in this case that passage that I quoted from Olalde et al talks about good soil for bone preservation and says there is more Corded Ware and Vlaardingen stuff there than Bell Beaker. It seems to me that is a good spot to try and get some Corded Ware remains.

alan
06-29-2017, 01:02 PM
I hazily recall one of the 2 big books on bell beakers that came out in the last 3 years had a chapter on Dutch beakers that discussed the way beakers and CW had ecologically contrasting niches. It may be then that the beaker burials fall into areas with good preservation conditions while CW ones fall into the acid soil areas.

Seems the Dutch CW/single grave burials are very heavily concentrated in cover sand areas, especially northern Netherlands although their settlements were a little more varied. That is probably why a lot of their barrows have acid soils and poor gone preservation. The beaker folk seemed more varied . However, as Rich pointed out there are exceptions. Glancing at make it seems most of that coversand is in northern Holland to the east and north of the Rhine as are most CW barrows.

Regardless I do think the Dutch CW idea is very interesting. We already have examples of U106 was on northern coasts east of the Rhine 2400-1800BC even if the cultural roots are a bit uncertain. That includes CW battle axe areas. IMO it's hardly impossible that P312 was in some CW related groups if it's close cousins U106 was. It doesn't look like P312 was in Scandinavia battle axe or landlocked CW in Germany. But Holland can't be ruled out.

epoch
06-29-2017, 01:37 PM
Seems the Dutch CW/single grave burials are very heavily concentrated in cover sand areas, especially northern Netherlands although their settlements were a little more varied. That is probably why a lot of their barrows have acid soils and poor gone preservation. The beaker folk seemed more varied . However, as Rich pointed out there are exceptions. Glancing at make it seems most of that coversand is in northern Holland to the east and north of the Rhine as are most CW barrows.

Regardless I do think the Dutch CW idea is very interesting. We already have examples of U106 was on northern coasts east of the Rhine 2400-1800BC even if the cultural roots are a bit uncertain. That includes CW battle axe areas. IMO it's hardly impossible that P312 was in some CW related groups if it's close cousins U106 was. It doesn't look like P312 was in Scandinavia battle axe or landlocked CW in Germany. But Holland can't be ruled out.

Especially since the best bell beakers are found on a large sandy complex called the Veluwe in a style that undoubtedly originated in the Netherlands, the so called Veluvian Bell Beakers. But as I updated my reaction: there are at least two skeletons found in the West-Frisian area that are at least dated from around the time of CWC. One male, buried in a completely uncharacteristic style and a woman buried in a typical CW fashion judging from the picture.

Gravetto-Danubian
06-29-2017, 02:10 PM
Seems the Dutch CW/single grave burials are very heavily concentrated in cover sand areas, especially northern Netherlands although their settlements were a little more varied. That is probably why a lot of their barrows have acid soils and poor gone preservation. The beaker folk seemed more varied . However, as Rich pointed out there are exceptions. Glancing at make it seems most of that coversand is in northern Holland to the east and north of the Rhine as are most CW barrows.

Regardless I do think the Dutch CW idea is very interesting. We already have examples of U106 was on northern coasts east of the Rhine 2400-1800BC even if the cultural roots are a bit uncertain. That includes CW battle axe areas. IMO it's hardly impossible that P312 was in some CW related groups if it's close cousins U106 was. It doesn't look like P312 was in Scandinavia battle axe or landlocked CW in Germany. But Holland can't be ruled out.

The interesting thing is CWC co-exists with the local Vlaardingen culture in Netherlands. The latter lived in the lowlands of the Rhine -Meuse delta whilst the CWC / SGC existed in the highlands north of it. In fact the Vlaardingen had coexisted with TRB until it got replaced by CWC, whilst Vlaardingen continued to exist until 2500 BC; when both transitioned into BB. Although the Vlaardingen culture can't be argued to be ancestral to BB, aspects of CWC can; at least as far as Netherlands is concernbed.

epoch
06-29-2017, 07:18 PM
The interesting thing is CWC co-exists with the local Vlaardingen culture in Netherlands. The latter lived in the lowlands of the Rhine -Meuse delta whilst the CWC / SGC existed in the highlands north of it. In fact the Vlaardingen had coexisted with TRB until it got replaced by CWC, whilst Vlaardingen continued to exist until 2500 BC; when both transitioned into BB. Although the Vlaardingen culture can't be argued to be ancestral to BB, aspects of CWC can; at least as far as Netherlands is concernbed.

Far more interestingly is that recently all kinds of required excavations due to big building projects uncovering interesting peripherical sites. We see an area of salt marshes and flood plains where all cultures have their sites. But describing it that way doesn't merit the image that is starting to build for the perimeter: We have sites that yield Vlaardingen as well as CWC or TRB pottery. We have a site - Bornwird in Frisia proper - that yielded very late TRB and CWC pottery. We have a site that is sampled in Olalde et al - Tuithoorn - that had remarkably similar auDNA for all samples whereas burial habits changed from crouched to burial on the back. Harry Fokkens recently uploaded a doc to academia.edu on the result of Malta agreement facilitated excavations which is very rich in information on the Netherlands in exactly the era we're talking about:

https://www.academia.edu/31484011/Farmers_fishers_fowlers_hunters.Knowledge_generate d_by_development-led_archaeology_about_the_Late_Neolithic_the_Early _Bronze_Age_and_the_start_of_the_Middle_Bronze_Age _2850_-_1500_cal_BC_in_the_Netherlands

Isidro
06-30-2017, 02:15 AM
Are we paying too much attention to Y-DNA origins and missing out on a much more wide approach to pre-history?. Sometimes I get the impression that the script changes on possible scenarios dictated by scattered Y-DNA results that at first glance distort and mislead real research.


I have posted an interesting link below (in Spanish) with a quote and translation, this comment was written by Carles Fox Lalueza (2013?), as I understand it a well respected scientist, expert on DNA.
I wonder if Olalde et al., Reich and other prominent DNA experts agree or disagree with what Lalueza wrote, or if he has done a reversal on his comment.


http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/el-adn-antiguo-y-la-filogenia-humana.html?m=1


The limitations of uniparental markers (mt-DNA and Y-DNA):
Uniparental markers have failed to detect real evolutionary processes: When population size remains constant for a long time, uniparental DNA tends to clump at some point, so that previous genetic events are undetectable


Original script:
Las limitaciones de los marcadores uniparentales (ADN-mt y ADN-Y):
Los marcadores uniparentales han fracasado en la detección de los procesos evolutivos reales: Cuando el tamaño de la población permanece constante durante largo tiempo, el ADN uniparental tiende a aglutinarse en algún momento, de forma que los eventos genéticos anteriores son indetectables

rms2
06-30-2017, 12:23 PM
Are we paying too much attention to Y-DNA origins and missing out on a much more wide approach to pre-history?. Sometimes I get the impression that the script changes on possible scenarios dictated by scattered Y-DNA results that at first glance distort and mislead real research.

Please don't take any of my responses the wrong way. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

Honestly, I don't think we are paying too much attention to y-dna origins. This is the y-dna haplogroups forum, after all, and the string after that is R and R1b General. So this is a subforum dedicated to paying attention to y-dna haplogroup R1b. That's its purpose.

Besides that, we regularly introduce autosomal dna into the discussion and, occasionally, mtDNA. There is a lot of archaeology in the discussions here, as well as a sprinkling of linguistics.

If one is interested in the history of his y-dna haplogroup and how it is he came to inherit it, it is not really possible to pay too much attention to it.

And I think we are at the point now at which we have moved well beyond "scattered Y-DNA results". The evidence is mounting, and the picture is becoming clearer with each new paper.



I have posted an interesting link below (in Spanish) with a quote and translation, this comment was written by Carles Fox Lalueza (2013?), as I understand it a well respected scientist, expert on DNA.
I wonder if Olalde et al., Reich and other prominent DNA experts agree or disagree with what Lalueza wrote, or if he has done a reversal on his comment.


http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/el-adn-antiguo-y-la-filogenia-humana.html?m=1


The limitations of uniparental markers (mt-DNA and Y-DNA):
Uniparental markers have failed to detect real evolutionary processes: When population size remains constant for a long time, uniparental DNA tends to clump at some point, so that previous genetic events are undetectable


Original script:
Las limitaciones de los marcadores uniparentales (ADN-mt y ADN-Y):
Los marcadores uniparentales han fracasado en la detección de los procesos evolutivos reales: Cuando el tamaño de la población permanece constante durante largo tiempo, el ADN uniparental tiende a aglutinarse en algún momento, de forma que los eventos genéticos anteriores son indetectables

I believe Lalueza Fox is talking there about the accumulation of y-dna and mtDNA as reflected in modern dna obscuring previous genetic events.

Up until the advent of effective and efficient ancient dna testing, modern dna was all we had. High frequency of a y-dna haplogroup in a particular place, for example, was often mistaken to signify the place of origin of that haplogroup or to indicate that it had spent the LGM there and had expanded afterwards from that place. That was obscuring the truth.

An obvious example is the FC Ice Age refuge. Up until recently, that is where nearly everyone thought R1b was during the LGM. Ancient y-dna has overturned that idea, which was based almost entirely on modern haplogroup frequency, as well as on the old, mistaken, 19th century notion that the Basques were some sort of relic of the Paleolithic period.

rms2
06-30-2017, 12:41 PM
I know someone will point out that the study of modern dna was already well on its way to overturning the R1b/FC Ice Age Refuge idea before the advent of ancient dna studies, and that is true. I remember it well. But the debate was still raging and probably still would be, if not for ancient dna.

epoch
06-30-2017, 10:25 PM
Recently (2015) a huge (120 graves) graveyard from the Funnelbeaker culture was found in the Netherlands, in Dalfsen. It dates from that latest phase of TRB in the Netherlands (2900-2700 BC) which is contemporary to the earliest phase of Corded Ware in the Netherlands. Most bodies dissolved in the sandy soils, as usual, but some teeth and one part of a jawbone survived. Currently there seems to be an effort to extract DNA from it. I got this all from news papers, can't find more. But it would be quite interesting if it yielded something useful.

EDIT: Dutch article, maybe yields something readable through translators
http://historiek.net/spectaculair-grafveld-uit-de-steentijd-ontdekt-in-dalfsen/50295/

I emailed the archaeologists that conducted the excavation about the prospects for DNA extraction and they responded that the samples were to degraded for DNA extraction. Such a pity.

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2017, 07:00 AM
Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I never realized how dense the Bell Beaker settlements containing Bell Beaker common ware were in the Czech Republic and Eastern Germany, compared to the rest of Europe (within the gray oval).
Figure 1 from https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/3536/3051
17321

Net Down G5L
07-01-2017, 08:32 AM
Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I never realized how dense the Bell Beaker settlements containing Bell Beaker common ware were in the Czech Republic and Eastern Germany, compared to the rest of Europe.
Figure 1 from https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/3536/3051
17321

Nice one. Not seen that article before. very interesting analysis and maps. Really emphasises the importance of the Silesian-Maloposka to Mittle-Elebe-Salle provinces that Heyd 2007 discusses.

I expec/hopet to see future isotopic and aDNA studies showing the importance of movements related to these areas.

rms2
07-01-2017, 01:59 PM
Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but I never realized how dense the Bell Beaker settlements containing Bell Beaker common ware were in the Czech Republic and Eastern Germany, compared to the rest of Europe.
Figure 1 from https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/3536/3051
17321

I know I have posted this elsewhere before, but the polypod and pedestalled bowls of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and those other kurgan or kurganized cultures seem to my untrained eye to be either based upon or very similar to the much earlier Mikhailovka style as reflected in this brazier c. 3500 BC.

17329

Compare these pedestalled bowls to the Mikhailovka brazier.

17330

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2017, 03:20 PM
I know I have posted this elsewhere before, but the polypod and pedestalled bowls of Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and those other kurgan or kurganized cultures seem to my untrained eye to be either based upon or very similar to the much earlier Mikhailovka style as reflected in this brazier c. 3500 BC.

17329

Compare these pedestalled bowls to the Mikhailovka brazier.

17330

Yes when I saw figure 3 I thought of your previous posts on this.

The Polypod Cup in the Pre-Bell Beaker Groups
The polypods of the Bell Beaker seem to have developed from footed cups in the form of a cross
(Kreuzfussschalen) in central Europe, which first appeared in the Kostolac group in Slovakia and in
northwest Hungary during the Final Neolithic. It then spread throughout the several cultures in eastern
Europe (VuËedol, ÿivnáË, Cham, Corded Ware) and were almost always decorated (Figure 3).
After their appearance in the Bell Beaker in eastern Europe, polypods rapidly spread in central
Europe via Germany where they were first found around 2500 BC and probably via northern Italy,
and then to the southern France where dates for the first multifooted cups are earlier than 2300 BC.

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/3536/3051
17331

razyn
07-01-2017, 03:26 PM
The last few posts on this thread do not look to me as if the illustrated examples of pottery are coming up the Danube and through the Iron Gates. Let alone refluxing from their Iberian roots.

rms2
07-01-2017, 05:20 PM
The prototypes could have followed the Danube up into the Carpathian Basin, however, and dispersed from there. Mikhailovka was located on the northwest shores of the Black Sea not far from the mouth of the Danube.

17333

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2017, 06:03 PM
With the ancient DNA data we have up to this point, I think so many sub-scenarios are possible, that I don't think that I have a single strong opinion on any of them. A direct Yamnaya > Bell Beaker East scenario is just as likely as a Yamnaya > Corded Ware > Bell Beaker East scenario. Even multiple Corded Ware scenarios are possible. For example:

1. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya continues up the Danube in the form of Corded Ware, crosses into the Rhine and continues into the Low Countries as Singe Grave Culture people. This would explain the 200 year overlap of Protruding Foot Beaker and All-Over-Corded beakers in the Lower Rhine. Sometimes these two are found within the same grave. It could also explain the diversity of R-L11 in the Low Countries, the autosomal preference for Funnel Beaker and Globular Amphorae Cultures and elevated WHG in non-Iberian Bell Beaker samples. This mad dash may explain the elevated steppe ancestry seen in Dutch and British Bell Beakers which is even greater than that found in more eastern Bell Beaker samples from Bavaria, the Czech Republic and Poland.

2. R-L51 & R-L11 Yamnaya finds a niche within Corded Ware and remains in a place like Moravia, diversifies there and then expands from there in all directions in the form of P312 and sublcades (including Hungary and Southern Poland).

When I saw this map, I was reminded of Richard's "mad dash" comment above. The 200 year 2700 to 2500 BC timeframe seems to fit the arrival of BB in Britain from the east via the low countries.
17334

rms2
07-01-2017, 06:07 PM
When I saw this map, I was reminded of Richard's "mad dash" comment above. The 200 year 2700 to 2500 BC timeframe seems to fit the arrival of BB in Britain from the east via the low countries.
17334

Good catch, and, as I think you and Net Down pointed out elsewhere, the Amesbury Archer could have been born and raised in Bohemia/Moravia/Silesia, as well as the Alps.

razyn
07-01-2017, 06:41 PM
The prototypes could have followed the Danube up into the Carpathian Basin, however, and dispersed from there.

They could have, if they had done that in about 3500 BC instead of six or eight hundred years later (in the Mad Dash). The red-outlined arrow on the modified map just posted by MitchellSince1893 shows (with archaeological dates) a more direct, and later, dash -- that doesn't involve the Danube/Rhine canal system, or whatever. In fact it looks somewhat like the 4800 (ybp) arrow on the "Hybrid Model" slide of Johannes Krause, in a lecture last fall. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8878-Ancient-DNA-amp-the-Proto-Indo-European-Homeland&p=193112&viewfull=1#post193112

rms2
07-01-2017, 06:49 PM
They could have, if they had done that in about 3500 BC instead of six or eight hundred years later (in the Mad Dash). The red-outlined arrow on the modified map just posted by MitchellSince1893 shows (with archaeological dates) a more direct, and later, dash -- that doesn't involve the Danube/Rhine canal system, or whatever. In fact it looks somewhat like the 4800 (ybp) arrow on the "Hybrid Model" slide of Johannes Krause, in a lecture last fall. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8878-Ancient-DNA-amp-the-Proto-Indo-European-Homeland&p=193112&viewfull=1#post193112

The "mad dash" polypod and pedestalled bowls were already in existence and well advanced by the time of said "mad dash". I said the prototypes could have come from Mikhailovka by way of the Danube Valley and the Carpathian Basin.

In other words, the style may have come from Mikhailovka up the Danube and into the Carpathian Basin and had spread to the starting line in Bohemia/Moravia/Silesia by the time of the mad dash.

It isn't likely those polypod bowls just sprang into existence right before the mad dash.

razyn
07-01-2017, 06:58 PM
I'm thinking, not all antecedents are prototypes. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy, not a rule of thumb. But, whatever. All I really meant to call attention to was the similarity of the arrows (Krause's, and Mitchell's). If DF27 shows up in Quedlinburg (Elbe valley) before it shows up in Hungary, or the Alps, or Moravia (and I have no reason to expect that pattern to hold), that will interest me more than the chronology of footed braziers.

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2017, 07:02 PM
Good catch, and, as I think you and Net Down pointed out elsewhere, the Amesbury Archer could have been born and raised in Bohemia/Moravia/Silesia, as well as the Alps.

Based on the isotropic value maps in Europe I could dig up (lots of gaps in coverage) , I extrapolated where the Amesbury Archer value range would fit. I believe areas with yellow dots, overlapping the light yellow shaded areas are the best fit. There are many unknowns in making this map so it's only my best guess and should be treated with caution.

17335

rms2
07-01-2017, 07:10 PM
I'm thinking, not all antecedents are prototypes. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy, not a rule of thumb. But, whatever. All I really meant to call attention to was the similarity of the arrows (Krause's, and Mitchell's). If DF27 shows up in Quedlinburg (Elbe valley) before it shows up in Hungary, or the Alps, or Moravia (and I have no reason to expect that pattern to hold), that will interest me more than the chronology of footed braziers.

The discussion concerned the similarity between that Mikhailovka I brazier and those polypod and pedestalled bowls. No one claimed that the Mikhailovka I brazier was a prototype merely because it came first. I said that to my untrained eye, the damned thing looks a lot like those later polypod and pedestalled bowls, and I think most of us can see that.

So it is irrelevant to cite Post hoc, ergo propter hoc in this case, because it was not based merely on temporal precedence but on the stylistic similarities, as well as the fact that we know Yamnaya traveled up the Danube Valley and settled in big numbers in the Carpathian Basin.

I was not arguing that the "mad dash" was from the Carpathian Basin to the Lower Rhine and thence to the British Isles. I merely pointed out that a particular steppe pottery style probably came from Mikhailovka originally, traveled up the Danube with Yamnaya to the Carpathian Basin, and was dispersed from there to all those kurgan and kurgan spin-off cultures.

Now, if you don't think the style came from Mikhailovka, fine. Point out how you think the Mikhailovka I brazier and those polypod and pedestalled bowls really were radically different or could not be connected.

What is the fallacy involved in citing inapplicable logical fallacies?

razyn
07-01-2017, 08:11 PM
My fallacy was in rashly attempting to modify one of the myriad imprecise assertions of someone who likes to have the last word. But really, that was what was troublesome with your version of it. The dates, arrows &c. of the archaeological evidence point from east (early) to west (late). I've agreed with you that the genetics suggest that, for most of a decade, during which btw few did. OK, Mikhailovka was early, and had polypod ceramic objects. But the archaeologically observed trail of them, with (later) dates, on the maps to which I had referred (and you had then disagreed with me) was not a trail up the Danube and into the said basin. It was a trail on the north side of all that, from east to west, several hundred years later. Further deponent saith not.

Isidro
07-01-2017, 11:25 PM
Well , no offence in my comment either but it seems like you associate me with the R1b-FC refuge idea no matter what I post, even if it is not remotely talking about it. I don't know why that is but if I had to guess a couple of things come to mind and useless to talk about it.
Truth is I am not a proponent of any particular theory or whatever you want to call it. It is also true that although a possibility, the Kurgan theory for R1b-M269-P312 I do not think it is a front runner (race is not over no matter how much you wish it with the cadre of your postings).
I know some posters have given up on making a counter point with you, I am not here to argue personally with you or anyone, but to refresh past memories; I recall Arch asking me a while back, and I mean years ago, what did I thing about Bell Beakers and R1b expansions. My response was and I have been partially right is that it seemed like it was a local development and not genetically spread cultural event, and as it turns out as of today,
that's what it looks like. On the other hand, and correct me if I am wrong; Bell beaker culture for you today takes a second stage over where R1b-P312 is found as a flavor of the day, or the publication of ancient DNA of the day. Real science...

Any way, I could go on to make a point on how much I disagree with your stands but I do think it is a lost cause.


I know someone will point out that the study of modern dna was already well on its way to overturning the R1b/FC Ice Age Refuge idea before the advent of ancient dna studies, and that is true. I remember it well. But the debate was still raging and probably still would be, if not for ancient dna.

rms2
07-02-2017, 01:12 AM
My fallacy was in rashly attempting to modify one of the myriad imprecise assertions of someone who likes to have the last word. But really, that was what was troublesome with your version of it. The dates, arrows &c. of the archaeological evidence point from east (early) to west (late). I've agreed with you that the genetics suggest that, for most of a decade, during which btw few did. OK, Mikhailovka was early, and had polypod ceramic objects. But the archaeologically observed trail of them, with (later) dates, on the maps to which I had referred (and you had then disagreed with me) was not a trail up the Danube and into the said basin. It was a trail on the north side of all that, from east to west, several hundred years later. Further deponent saith not.

Okay, so you don't think those polypod and pedestalled bowls were derived from Mikhailovka, despite what that Mikhailovka I brazier looked like c. 3500 BC and despite those pedestalled bowls from the Carpathian Basin. That's fine; we can disagree.

Yeah, I like to have the last word, especially when I think I'm right. So does everybody else, including you. I also don't like to be accused of bogus logical fallacies and to listen to crap about my "myriad imprecise assertions" (which is simply a baseless insult).

rms2
07-02-2017, 01:25 AM
Well , no offence in my comment either but it seems like you associate me with the R1b-FC refuge idea no matter what I post, even if it is not remotely talking about it. I don't know why that is but if I had to guess a couple of things come to mind and useless to talk about it.

Well, my post did not accuse you of still supporting the R1b/FC Refuge thing. I only mentioned it in connection with what Lalueza Fox wrote, as an example of modern dna obscuring the truth about the past.

I do remember that you were one of the die hard defenders of the R1b/FC Ice Age Refuge over at dna forums, so if I do associate you with that, I can hardly be blamed. What I recall in particular is how angry any questioning of that idea used to make you.



Truth is I am not a proponent of any particular theory or whatever you want to call it.

Maybe not anymore.



It is also true that although a possibility, the Kurgan theory for R1b-M269-P312 I do not think it is a front runner (race is not over no matter how much you wish it with the cadre of your postings).

I think you actually know better.




I know some posters have given up on making a counter point with you, I am not here to argue personally with you or anyone, but to refresh past memories; I recall Arch asking me a while back, and I mean years ago, what did I thing about Bell Beakers and R1b expansions. My response was and I have been partially right is that it seemed like it was a local development and not genetically spread cultural event, and as it turns out as of today,
that's what it looks like. On the other hand, and correct me if I am wrong; Bell beaker culture for you today takes a second stage over where R1b-P312 is found as a flavor of the day, or the publication of ancient DNA of the day. Real science...

Any way, I could go on to make a point on how much I disagree with your stands but I do think it is a lost cause.

I'm not sure how what you have posted is relevant to a thread whose topic is the possibility that P312 got into Bell Beaker from Corded Ware.

Probably best to ignore these kinds of occasional guest appearance sort of drive-by posts bereft of substance.

Isidro
07-02-2017, 02:05 AM
Well, my post did not accuse you of still supporting the R1b/FC Refuge thing. I only mentioned it in connection with what Lalueza Fox wrote, as an example of modern dna obscuring the truth about the past.

I do remember that you were one of the die hard defenders of the R1b/FC Ice Age Refuge over at dna forums, so if I do associate you with that, I can hardly be blamed. What I recall in particular is how angry any questioning of that idea used to make you.

I am not a die hard defender of the FC_R1b possibility, (although WHG and Neolithic spread is a real valid probable outcome) because there has been new developments in ancient DNA that question it, as they question the Kurgan option...so I have evolved and you have not...

Maybe not anymore.
Are you calling me a liar?.


I think you actually know better, which is why your posts seem so negative and irritable.

Just let it go... it seems like you are irritating yourself.




I'm not sure how what you have posted is relevant to a thread whose topic is the possibility that P312 got into Bell Beaker from Corded Ware.
That is not up to you to decide... you are not a globaly respected moderator.
Probably best to ignore these kind of occasional guest appearance sort of drive-by posts bereft of substance.

After a few hundred posts I would not call it occasional guest appearances, it is not the quantity of the posts that counts is the quality that matters...you are one example of spam posting, once made your point you should people decide by themselves without dictating what others should think.

Now, there is nothing new you can add that I already do not know, and you have made abundantly obvious through your multiple postings that some sane person with integrity would call trolling.

rms2
07-02-2017, 02:12 AM
This is tedious, and that is the best that can be said of it.

Isidro
07-02-2017, 02:15 AM
Finally you are coming to your senses... I applaud it.

This is tedious, and that is the best that can be said of it.

rms2
07-02-2017, 02:19 AM
This is tedious, and that is the best that can be said of it.


Finally you are coming to your senses... I applaud it.

So your intent was to be tedious?

Isidro
07-02-2017, 02:28 AM
This was not my monologue... unless your posts do not count.
So your intent was to be tedious?

rms2
07-02-2017, 02:32 AM
Okay, now maybe we can get back to the topic of this thread, which has to do with the possibility that P312 came from Corded Ware.

Isidro
07-02-2017, 02:43 AM
Sounds great, does anyone else care to comment on my post #375

http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot...umana.html?m=1 (http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/el-adn-antiguo-y-la-filogenia-humana.html?m=1)


The limitations of uniparental markers (mt-DNA and Y-DNA):
Uniparental markers have failed to detect real evolutionary processes: When population size remains constant for a long time, uniparental DNA tends to clump at some point, so that previous genetic events are undetectable
in relation to Corded Ware?.

Okay, now maybe we can get back to the topic of this thread, which has to do with the possibility that P312 came from Corded Ware.

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 03:12 AM
Based on the isotropic value maps in Europe I could dig up (lots of gaps in coverage) , I extrapolated where the Amesbury Archer value range would fit. I believe areas with yellow dots, overlapping the light yellow shaded areas are the best fit. There are many unknowns in making this map so it's only my best guess and should be treated with caution.

17335

A quick 'eyeballing' of your map seems to suggest Heyd's southern Beaker province North of the Danube as another possible source area for the Archer?

Gravetto-Danubian
07-02-2017, 03:20 AM
Sounds great, does anyone else care to comment on my post #375

http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot...umana.html?m=1 (http://paleoantropologiahoy.blogspot.com.es/2016/06/el-adn-antiguo-y-la-filogenia-humana.html?m=1)


The limitations of uniparental markers (mt-DNA and Y-DNA):
Uniparental markers have failed to detect real evolutionary processes: When population size remains constant for a long time, uniparental DNA tends to clump at some point, so that previous genetic events are undetectable
in relation to Corded Ware?.

It seems like a very general blog post
Of course Y DNA alone cannot give all angles; but it would be folly to exclude it.
It adds a great extra dimension to anthropological interpretations. It's indispensible imo

MitchellSince1893
07-02-2017, 03:55 AM
A quick 'eyeballing' of your map seems to suggest Heyd's southern Beaker province North of the Danube as another possible source area for the Archer?

I'm not familiar with "Heyd's southern Beaker province North of the Danube" and my attempts to google it failed.

Is it the same as the "Enclave stretching between the Middle Danube, Upper Vistula/Oderand Upper Elbe (including South Polish Bell Beakers)" found in this document?
https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland

17338

Interesting quote from said document about southern Polish Beaker and Corded Ware interactions.

Populations of southern Beakers sometimes interacted with communities of the late Corded Ware Culture(ca. 2400/2200 BC  W£ODARCZAK/ KOWALEWSKA--MARSZA£EK
1998), similar in social organisation (a model, in which men  warriors dominate). The role played by the Beakers is also stressed in the establishment of social structures of the proto-Mierzanowice Culture in Little Poland (KADROW 1995;2001) as well as the proto-Únìtice Culture in Silesia. Bell Beaker populations were characterised by their mobility. Anthropological analyses carried out in Little Poland show differences between male skeletons and those of members of local populations. It were only female skeletons that exhibited local characteristics (MACHNIK
1987, 141; BUDZISZEWSKI/ HADUCH/W£ODARCZAK 2003). These observations are consistent with opinions, severely criticised in the 1980s,considering Bell Beakers a male culture, which was

As mentioned before, maybe it was the local females that gave British Bell Beaker its GAC and TRB autosomal looking components mentioned in Olade's paper

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 04:16 AM
I'm not familiar with "Heyd's southern Beaker province North of the Danube" and my attempts to google it failed.



(2007) V. Heyd, Families, Prestige Goods, Warriors and Complex Societies: Beaker Groups of the 3rd Millennium cal BC along the Upper and Middle Danube. Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society 73, 2007, p. 321-370.

Province map on page 330

On academia.edu here:

https://www.academia.edu/1249549/_2007_V._Heyd_Families_Prestige_Goods_Warriors_and _Complex_Societies_Beaker_Groups_of_the_3rd_Millen nium_cal_BC_along_the_Upper_and_Middle_Danube._Pro ceedings_of_the_Prehistoric_Society_73_2007_p._321-370

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 04:31 AM
I'm not familiar with "Heyd's southern Beaker province North of the Danube" and my attempts to google it failed.

Is it the same as the "Enclave stretching between the Middle Danube, Upper Vistula/Oderand Upper Elbe (including South Polish Bell Beakers)" found in this document?
https://www.academia.edu/2022469/Northern_and_Southern_Bell_Beakers_in_Poland


17338

Interesting quote from said document about southern Polish Beaker and Corded Ware interactions.


As mentioned before, maybe it was the local females that gave British Bell Beaker its GAC and TRB autosomal looking components mentioned in Olade's paper


Very interesting quote on Beaker interactions - including with proto-Unetice in Silesia. Note the Mathieson pre-print has a proto-Unetice sample from Leki Male in Silesia - RISE431.SG - and it is R1b.

All looking very interesting!

MitchellSince1893
07-02-2017, 04:50 AM
(2007) V. Heyd, Families, Prestige Goods, Warriors and Complex Societies: Beaker Groups of the 3rd Millennium cal BC along the Upper and Middle Danube. Proceedings of the Prehistoric Society 73, 2007, p. 321-370.

Province map on page 330

On academia.edu here:

https://www.academia.edu/1249549/_2007_V._Heyd_Families_Prestige_Goods_Warriors_and _Complex_Societies_Beaker_Groups_of_the_3rd_Millen nium_cal_BC_along_the_Upper_and_Middle_Danube._Pro ceedings_of_the_Prehistoric_Society_73_2007_p._321-370

Screenshot for the convenience of our readers.
17339
So you are referring to the southern German province? If so, then as best as I can tell, it would be a good area for an isotropic match to the Amesbury Archer. However it wouldn't be a good match from GAC and TRB autosomal viewpoint.

I'm going to throw out a few "ifs" here.

If the Amesbury Archer was a typical BB immigrant, then based on the autosomal results from the Olade paper, he, or his recent ancestors should come from an area where they could pick up GAC / TRB-funnel beaker looking autosomal dna.

If we want to limit are search to where the archer's isotropic data is a good match (assuming I correctly interpreted the data); and where GAC and TRB existed, we are left with the area where these characteristics overlap.

I don't mean to saturate this thread with tons of maps, but here is where TRB (top map) and GAC-Globular Amphora Culture existed.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/TRB_culture_map.png
http://scimondo.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Ausbreitung_der_Schnurkeramik-Kultur.png

If we enforce this strict interpretation then present day Northeast Germany, the Czech Republic, western and southern Poland seem like the best fits.

But I admit that is a lot of "ifs"

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 04:56 AM
Very interesting quote on Beaker interactions - including with proto-Unetice in Silesia. Note the Mathieson pre-print has a proto-Unetice sample from Leki Male in Silesia - RISE431.SG - and it is R1b.


In the late Beaker / Early Bronze Age the Unetice culture expanded and 'cut' the established N-S Beaker network and tin-bronze / amber trade (according to Phillip Stockhammer in his presentation a week ago).
However, an east=west trade has long thought to have replaced it - developed between the Wessex Culture in S England and the Unetice culture. This early Beaker-proto Unetice interaction (including R1b) could help explain that Unetice-Wessex trade link.

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 05:03 AM
If we enforce this strict interpretation then present day Northeast Germany, the Czech Republic, western and southern Poland seem like the best fits.

But I admit that is a lot of "ifs"

Yes, lots of ifs - but I do agree with your analysis and think it is currently the 'best bet' scenario worth looking into more.

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 06:06 AM
For info:
Recent post by Bell Beaker Blogger on Malopolska Beaker
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

He also cites and links to this interesting paper.
https://www.academia.edu/3025920/BELL_BEAKER_CULTURE_IN_SOUTH-EASTERN_POLAND

MitchellSince1893
07-02-2017, 06:21 AM
For info:
Recent post by Bell Beaker Blogger on Malopolska Beaker
http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

He also cites and links to this interesting paper.
https://www.academia.edu/3025920/BELL_BEAKER_CULTURE_IN_SOUTH-EASTERN_POLAND

He mentions
I4251/RISE1122/grave no. 7: 2837-2672 BCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926). Male inhumation burial (25-30 years) with northwest-southeast orientation, located on the left side. The grave goods consisted of two vessels (bowl and unornamented cup), a flint blade dagger and a flint scraper.

This is one of the samples we are most interested in. Can't wait for Richard Rocca to look at this one
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10565-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-And-The-Genomic-Transformation-Of-Northwest-Europe-Olalde&p=234096&viewfull=1#post234096

Net Down G5L
07-02-2017, 07:22 AM
He mentions

This is one of the samples we are most interested in. Can't wait for Richard Rocca to look at this one
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10565-The-Beaker-Phenomenon-And-The-Genomic-Transformation-Of-Northwest-Europe-Olalde&p=234096&viewfull=1#post234096

Me too. As Richard said - it could be a game changer. Lets hope the 'outlier date' is reliable.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-02-2017, 09:13 AM
Me too. As Richard said - it could be a game changer. Lets hope the 'outlier date' is reliable.

It is not, unfortunately. It is the product of a lab which was problematically finding huge blow-out dates, not just for this culture or sample. Independent corroboration of a lower date comes from the fact that the BB influences are most perceptible in the Mierzanowice culture of southern Poland, which dates after 2400BC (e.g. the Wladorczak paper you linked).
This means that BB in Poland is indeed a generation or two after its beginning in areas to its west, whatsmore the paper argues that the BB element in south Poland is an intrusive minority- the distinctive skulls, the representaion of females in burials (whilst in CWC and MzC they are under-represented), different flint repertoire, etc).

R.Rocca
07-02-2017, 10:23 AM
It is not, unfortunately. It is the product of a lab which was problematically finding huge blow-out dates, not just for this culture or sample. Independent corroboration of a lower date comes from the fact that the BB influences are most perceptible in the Mierzanowice culture of southern Poland, which dates after 2400BC (e.g. the Wladorczak paper you linked).
This means that BB in Poland is indeed a generation or two after its beginning in areas to its west, whatsmore the paper argues that the BB element in south Poland is an intrusive minority- the distinctive skulls, the representaion of females in burials (whilst in CWC and MzC they are under-represented), different flint repertoire, etc).

G-D is right... not only did the Polish researcher confirm it to someone on this site, but when I looked into other dates provided by this lab for other cultures and compared it to that of other labs, they are consistently older.

Also, it is almost unanimous in the papers I've seen that the southern Poland and Hungarian Bell Beakers both expanded from Moravia. At this point, I'd much more interested in seeing Corded Ware samples from southern Poland to see if there was any R-L51.

rms2
07-02-2017, 11:42 AM
Screenshot for the convenience of our readers.
17339
So you are referring to the southern German province? If so, then as best as I can tell, it would be a good area for an isotropic match to the Amesbury Archer. However it wouldn't be a good match from GAC and TRB autosomal viewpoint.

I'm going to throw out a few "ifs" here.

If the Amesbury Archer was a typical BB immigrant, then based on the autosomal results from the Olade paper, he, or his recent ancestors should come from an area where they could pick up GAC / TRB-funnel beaker looking autosomal dna.

If we want to limit are search to where the archer's isotropic data is a good match (assuming I correctly interpreted the data); and where GAC and TRB existed, we are left with the area where these characteristics overlap.

I don't mean to saturate this thread with tons of maps, but here is where TRB (top map) and GAC-Globular Amphora Culture existed.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/TRB_culture_map.png
http://scimondo.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Ausbreitung_der_Schnurkeramik-Kultur.png

If we enforce this strict interpretation then present day Northeast Germany, the Czech Republic, western and southern Poland seem like the best fits.

But I admit that is a lot of "ifs"

The contribution of GAC/TRB applies to the non-Iberian BB set from Olalde et al in general, and not just to British Bell Beaker. It could have come during the Corded Ware phase (if there was one for Bell Beaker). The Archer was late enough (c.2300 BC) that he could have inherited that from his eastern ancestors and have been born and raised himself in the Alps. I'm not taking the position that he was born and raised in the Alps, just keeping the possibility open. Bell Beaker people were highly mobile.

I think the fact that the Neolithic farmer component in non-Iberian Bell Beaker has GAC/TRB as a best fit is a pretty decent argument for a Corded Ware origin for the P312 in Bell Beaker, because it seems to narrow things down to places where GAC and TRB people lived.

rms2
07-02-2017, 12:10 PM
. . . At this point, I'd much more interested in seeing Corded Ware samples from southern Poland to see if there was any R-L51.

That's what we need: the smoking gun. I would really like to see some CW/Single Grave y-dna from the Netherlands, if it's possible to get any. I would also really like to see a good-sized sample from Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin and on the actual Pontic steppe rather than way out east on the Volga-Ural steppe.

What troubles me is that thus far Corded Ware from as far west as Bergrheinfeld in south central Germany (RISE446 2829-2465 BC) has been pretty nearly monolithic in its R1a, while there has not been even a hint of R1a in Bell Beaker. On the other hand, we have one instance of R1b-Z2103 in Bell Beaker and another in Vucedol, which could be signs that Gimbutas was right and we are on the verge of finding L51 in western Yamnaya.

I'm not trying to foment an argument or to say I don't find the case for CW/P312 compelling; I just wonder.

epoch
07-03-2017, 10:21 AM
That's what we need: the smoking gun. I would really like to see some CW/Single Grave y-dna from the Netherlands, if it's possible to get any. I would also really like to see a good-sized sample from Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin and on the actual Pontic steppe rather than way out east on the Volga-Ural steppe.

What troubles me is that thus far Corded Ware from as far west as Bergrheinfeld in south central Germany (RISE446 2829-2465 BC) has been pretty nearly monolithic in its R1a, while there has not been even a hint of R1a in Bell Beaker. On the other hand, we have one instance of R1b-Z2103 in Bell Beaker and another in Vucedol, which could be signs that Gimbutas was right and we are on the verge of finding L51 in western Yamnaya.


Do we have a map with CWC samples and their Y-DNA?

rms2
07-03-2017, 12:37 PM
Do we have a map with CWC samples and their Y-DNA?

Rozenfeld (I think) created a real nice map of ancient dna results not too long ago. I thought I bookmarked it, but I can't find it at the moment.

rms2
07-03-2017, 12:51 PM
Rozenfeld (I think) created a real nice map of ancient dna results not too long ago. I thought I bookmarked it, but I can't find it at the moment.

I found it here (http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#3/43.64/103.89).

You have to scroll down to find the entries for 3000-2000 BC.

R.Rocca
07-06-2017, 02:22 PM
There is likely nothing to it, but thought I'd mention it... with the increase from 170 to 196 samples, one has to wonder if these samples changed the narrative at all??? I mention this because the first abstract from earlier this year had mentioned Corded Ware, the pre-print did not, and then the latest one does again.

Early May (Kiel Germany):


The arrival of the BBC in Britain can thus be viewed as the western continuation of the massive movement of people that brought the Corded Ware Complex and steppe ancestry into central Europe a few hundred years before.

BioRxiv Pre-Print:


We use these observations to show that the spread of the Beaker Complex to Britain was mediated by migration from the continent that replaced >90% of Britain’s Neolithic gene pool within a few hundred years, continuing the process that brought Steppe ancestry into central and northern Europe 400 years earlier.

SMBE Abstract:


The arrival of the BBC in Britain can thus be viewed as the western continuation of the massive movement of people that brought the CWC and steppe ancestry into central Europe a few hundred years before.

razyn
07-06-2017, 02:29 PM
The SMBE abstract may have been sent in months earlier, because of printing deadlines and such.

Romilius
07-06-2017, 03:52 PM
The SMBE abstract may have been sent in months earlier, because of printing deadlines and such.

Perhaps you are right... I think that only Olalde has got the answer...

rms2
07-06-2017, 04:24 PM
I don't think they have gone into how P312 got into Bell Beaker. Wish things were otherwise.

parasar
07-06-2017, 04:36 PM
There is likely nothing to it, but thought I'd mention it... with the increase from 170 to 196 samples, one has to wonder if these samples changed the narrative at all??? I mention this because the first abstract from earlier this year had mentioned Corded Ware, the pre-print did not, and then the latest one does again.

Early May (Kiel Germany):



BioRxiv Pre-Print:



SMBE Abstract:


Interesting observation.
The SMBE abstract delineates more clearly the CWC mediated influence in bringing in steppe ancestry.
"the Corded Ware Complex (CWC) who were partly contemporaries of the BBC in central and eastern Europe and who brought steppe ancestry into central Europe"

The question still remains whether they found the BBC R1b precursor in CWC.

If Yamna is not the source of Aegean IE, that means neither R1b nor R1a were involved in that first dispersal.

Romilius
07-06-2017, 09:36 PM
Interesting observation.
The SMBE abstract delineates more clearly the CWC mediated influence in bringing in steppe ancestry.
"the Corded Ware Complex (CWC) who were partly contemporaries of the BBC in central and eastern Europe and who brought steppe ancestry into central Europe"

The question still remains whether they found the BBC R1b precursor in CWC.

If Yamna is not the source of Aegean IE, that means neither R1b nor R1a were involved in that first dispersal.

And that would be very welcome, at least by me, because it will put an end to some strange R1a nazi-like supremacism in some fora, things that I don't like.

ADW_1981
07-06-2017, 10:12 PM
Based on the R1b phylogeny, it looks most of the subclades of R1b below L23+ may have been around the Carpathians in central-east Europe, and moved onto the steppes, but also south into the Balkans. I think people are not seeing the reproductive potential of the hunter-gatherers of northern Europe...

Examples: CTS9219+ has a few independent clusters, whose founder might actually be in central-northern Europe (ie: eastern Germany/Austria)

BY611+ = Italy, Balkans (well known "Alb/Grc cluster")
BY250+ = pan-northern Europe (West and East)
YY5587+ = Eastern Europe/Steppes

After the fall of LBK related cultures, the male R1b lineages were successful for some reason, including the U106/P312+ branches which aren't even mentioned above. I'm not sure why I2-M223 wasn't involved in that explosion, but I1 seems to be in NW Europe, most likely due to younger Germanic migrations.

ADW_1981
07-06-2017, 10:18 PM
If Yamna is not the source of Aegean IE, that means neither R1b nor R1a were involved in that first dispersal.

Andronovo didn't have huge amounts of CHG did it? Quite a bit lower than Yamna/Afanasievo if I recall correctly and it also had EEF which wasn't present in Yamna/Afana. I think some CW genomes were also lacking CHG unless there was some error here in an older paper.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-06-2017, 10:59 PM
Andronovo didn't have huge amounts of CHG did it? Quite a bit lower than Yamna/Afanasievo if I recall correctly and it also had EEF which wasn't present in Yamna/Afana. I think some CW genomes were also lacking CHG unless there was some error here in an older paper.

I can't recall such data.
Andronovo have possibly less CHG due to dilution with EEF and EHG, over the centuries, given that it is much younger than Yamnaya.

parasar
07-07-2017, 02:31 AM
Andronovo didn't have huge amounts of CHG did it? Quite a bit lower than Yamna/Afanasievo if I recall correctly and it also had EEF which wasn't present in Yamna/Afana. I think some CW genomes were also lacking CHG unless there was some error here in an older paper.

There is difference between Andronovo and Sintashta from many others in that they seem to lack an extra European type WHG influence also nearly absent in Northern_LNBA. They don't need to be modeled with an extra boost of WHG beyond what they have from Yamna or Afanasevo. Andronovo essentially is Yamna of the Samara variety (or Afanasevo) mixed with some eastern EEF. I may be wrong but I think CHG (Satsurblia-Kotias variety) did not influence anyone beyond the Caucasus area.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YmsvhDyWexo/Vh6f0Fv9ePI/AAAAAAAADNs/vtdZZNkdLdY/s1600/admixture-analysis.png

epoch
07-07-2017, 01:07 PM
I emailed the archaeologists that conducted the excavation about the prospects for DNA extraction and they responded that the samples were to degraded for DNA extraction. Such a pity.

There is an interesting side note though. The site yielded two polished TRB axes and one single CWC axe. The issue is that the CWC axe was found underneath a medieval field so context is not very clear.

R.Rocca
07-07-2017, 03:26 PM
While I had previously posted just Bell Beaker and Yamnaya haplogroups, I thought I would expand the list to include other later Bronze Age samples. One would think that if R-L51 had taken the Danube route, they would have left a lot of their descendants there in subsequent Bronze Age cultures...

Hungarian Bronze Age Samples
R-M343......M6-116.8....2860-2620 BC <<<--- Vucedol Period, no-call for M269, no other downstream SNPs tested
I2a2........M6-116.10...2860-2620 BC <<<--- Vucedol Period
G2a2........I3528.......2559–2301 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
R-M269......I4178.......2500-2200 BC <<<--- a high quality sample, so very likely this guy is M269(xL23)
H2..........I2364.......2470–2060 BC <<<--- this is not a typo, this guy belongs to haplogroup H2
R-L2........I2365.......2465-2205 BC <<<--- the only confirmed L51+ sample out of any of these, and typical P312 of eastern Bell Beaker
I2a2a.......I2786.......2459–2206 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
I2a1........I2741.......2458–2154 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
R-Z2103.....I2787.......2458–2202 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker, but typical "Eastern Yamnaya" Z2103
I2a1........RISE254.....2128-1909 BC
I2a2........RISE479.....2000-1500 BC
G2a.........RISE374.....1866-1619 BC
R-M269......M85.........1770-1760 BC <<<--- no downstream markers tested
I2a2........RISE247.....1746-1611 BC
J2a1........I1504.......1270-1110 BC

Croatian Bronze Age Samples
R-Z2105.....I3499.......2884-2666 BC <<<--- Vucedol Culture, typical Yamnaya R-Z2105
G2a2........I2792.......2872-2617 BC <<<--- Vucedol Culture, again, not R-L51
J2b2a.......I4331.......1700-1500 BC

Bulgarian Bronze Age Samples
I2a2........Bul4........3012-2900 BC <<<--- Yamnaya Bulgaria Outlier
G2a2........I2510.......2906-2710 BC
R1a1........I2163.......1750-1625 BC <<<--- even R1a gets into the act here, but still no R-L51

rms2
07-07-2017, 04:13 PM
But couldn't you post a similar concatenation of Corded Ware samples to date with an even greater lack of L51?

If the answer is that the right parts of Corded Ware have not been tested yet, the same answer applies with equal or greater force to Yamnaya.

I'm not arguing against a Corded Ware origin for P312. I'm all for it. I just don't think we can eliminate the possibility that Gimbutas was right. After all, Z2103 in both Vucedol and Bell Beaker could be indications that she was.

parasar
07-07-2017, 04:46 PM
While I had previously posted just Bell Beaker and Yamnaya haplogroups, I thought I would expand the list to include other later Bronze Age samples. One would think that if R-L51 had taken the Danube route, they would have left a lot of their descendants there in subsequent Bronze Age cultures...

Hungarian Bronze Age Samples
R-M343......M6-116.8....2860-2620 BC <<<--- Vucedol Period, no-call for M269, no other downstream SNPs tested
I2a2........M6-116.10...2860-2620 BC <<<--- Vucedol Period
G2a2........I3528.......2559–2301 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
R-M269......I4178.......2500-2200 BC <<<--- a high quality sample, so very likely this guy is M269(xL23)
H2..........I2364.......2470–2060 BC <<<--- this is not a typo, this guy belongs to haplogroup H2
R-L2........I2365.......2465-2205 BC <<<--- the only confirmed L51+ sample out of any of these, and typical P312 of eastern Bell Beaker
I2a2a.......I2786.......2459–2206 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
I2a1........I2741.......2458–2154 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker
R-Z2103.....I2787.......2458–2202 BC <<<--- Bell Beaker, but typical "Eastern Yamnaya" Z2103
I2a1........RISE254.....2128-1909 BC
I2a2........RISE479.....2000-1500 BC
G2a.........RISE374.....1866-1619 BC
R-M269......M85.........1770-1760 BC <<<--- no downstream markers tested
I2a2........RISE247.....1746-1611 BC
J2a1........I1504.......1270-1110 BC

Croatian Bronze Age Samples
R-Z2105.....I3499.......2884-2666 BC <<<--- Vucedol Culture, typical Yamnaya R-Z2105
G2a2........I2792.......2872-2617 BC <<<--- Vucedol Culture, again, not R-L51
J2b2a.......I4331.......1700-1500 BC

Bulgarian Bronze Age Samples
I2a2........Bul4........3012-2900 BC <<<--- Yamnaya Bulgaria Outlier
G2a2........I2510.......2906-2710 BC
R1a1........I2163.......1750-1625 BC <<<--- even R1a gets into the act here, but still no R-L51

Plus that R1a1 sample happens to be Z93+, present even today, but not that common in the region.

Regarding I4178, I don't think L23 was tested.
I don't see it listed in Supplementary Table 5. pg 277
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

R.Rocca
07-07-2017, 07:19 PM
But couldn't you post a similar concatenation of Corded Ware samples to date with an even greater lack of L51?

When we take into account all of the Yamnaya East samples and all of the Corded Ware samples, only one of the two has shown L51 samples thus far. Of two Battle Axe Culture samples, one is R1a and the other is L51, albeit U106. While we all know U106 is not P312, they share hundreds of years worth of male ancestors with each other that they do not share with Z2103.


If the answer is that the right parts of Corded Ware have not been tested yet, the same answer applies with equal or greater force to Yamnaya.

Yes, that is precisely my answer. However, I don't know that we need to give the Danube Yamnaya equal or greater force. After all, looking for L51 in R1a heavy populations (that also happen to be steppe rich) may make more sense than looking for it in areas where the great majority of the results are typical non-L51 Balkan Copper Age. Also, remember that R1a and R1b co-existed on the steppe for a long time before their expansion west.


I'm not arguing against a Corded Ware origin for P312. I'm all for it. I just don't think we can eliminate the possibility that Gimbutas was right. After all, Z2103 in both Vucedol and Bell Beaker could be indications that she was.

Finding Z2103 as a minority in Vucedol is more likely to mean that Vucedol was a "kurganized" culture, not a "kurgan" culture. That is not what one would expect of the "kurgan" Bell Beaker East people.

R.Rocca
07-07-2017, 07:24 PM
Plus that R1a1 sample happens to be Z93+, present even today, but not that common in the region.

Regarding I4178, I don't think L23 was tested.
I don't see it listed in Supplementary Table 5. pg 277
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

I4178 was tested by Olalde, which did test for L23.

rms2
07-07-2017, 08:01 PM
When we take into account all of the Yamnaya East samples and all of the Corded Ware samples, only one of the two has shown L51 samples thus far. Of two Battle Axe Culture samples, one is R1a and the other is L51, albeit U106. While we all know U106 is not P312, they share hundreds of years worth of male ancestors with each other that they do not share with Z2103.

Nordic Battle Axe is a culture derived from Corded Ware. Bell Beaker, at least according to some respected scholars, like Gimbutas and Heyd, is a culture derived from Yamnaya. So, really, we could with as much or more justification (since we have a lot more of it) cite all the P312 in Bell Beaker as proof of L51 in Yamnaya as we could cite that single U106 to prove there was L51 in Corded Ware.




Yes, that is precisely my answer. However, I don't know that we need to give the Danube Yamnaya equal or greater force. After all, looking for L51 in R1a heavy populations (that also happen to be steppe rich) may make more sense than looking for it in areas where the great majority of the results are typical non-L51 Balkan Copper Age. Also, remember that R1a and R1b co-existed on the steppe for a long time before their expansion west.

You may be right, but at least we have actual test results from Corded Ware in Europe west of the Carpathians, none of them R1b-L51 thus far. We don't have any test results from Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin, despite the fact that both Heyd and Gimbutas derive Bell Beaker from that source.




Finding Z2103 as a minority in Vucedol is more likely to mean that Vucedol was a "kurganized" culture, not a "kurgan" culture. That is not what one would expect of the "kurgan" Bell Beaker East people.

Gimbutas said Vucedol was kurganized. It was a mix of steppe migrants and Old European farmers. If she was right, that is what we should expect. But she did not say Bell Beaker came from Vucedol. She said Bell Beaker was the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol. We see R1b-Z2103 in eastern Yamnaya, Vucedol, and Bell Beaker, and a lot of R1b-L51 in Bell Beaker. The missing link could be Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin, which may have supplied the R1b-L51.

It's interesting, too, if Gimbutas is right, that we see one of the known Yamnaya haplogroups in Bell Beaker: R1b-Z2103. We don't see the known Corded Ware haplogroup, R1a, in Bell Beaker, which seems odd, given the growing number of samples, many of them from regions in which Corded Ware and Bell Beaker interacted.

rms2
07-07-2017, 08:22 PM
I know that last post sounds like I am arguing for a Carpathian Basin origin for Bell Beaker a la Gimbutas, but I'm really not. I just think it's a possibility, and we need lots of Yamnaya y-dna results from the Carpathian Basin to know one way or the other.

Personally, I now suspect that whoever the Dutch scientist was (I forget his name - Fokkens?) who thought that Bell Beaker came from Corded Ware/Single Grave/Protruding Foot Beakers was right.

R.Rocca
07-07-2017, 08:53 PM
I know that last post sounds like I am arguing for a Carpathian Basin origin for Bell Beaker a la Gimbutas, but I'm really not. I just think it's a possibility, and we need lots of Yamnaya y-dna results from the Carpathian Basin to know one way or the other.

Personally, I now suspect that whoever the Dutch scientist was (I forget his name - Fokkens?) who thought that Bell Beaker came from Corded Ware/Single Grave/Protruding Foot Beakers was right.

Some All-Over-Ornamented Bell Beakers from SE England have a protruding foot, just like those found in NE Dutch/NW German AOO Bell Beakers. Haven't seen them on the internet, but I have a book somewhere that has them. Quite interesting.

epoch
07-09-2017, 03:19 PM
I know that last post sounds like I am arguing for a Carpathian Basin origin for Bell Beaker a la Gimbutas, but I'm really not. I just think it's a possibility, and we need lots of Yamnaya y-dna results from the Carpathian Basin to know one way or the other.

Personally, I now suspect that whoever the Dutch scientist was (I forget his name - Fokkens?) who thought that Bell Beaker came from Corded Ware/Single Grave/Protruding Foot Beakers was right.

A number of Leiden scientists proposed it. Harry Fokkens showed a number of flaws in their theories, and created a revised one. If you search academia.edu you'll probaly find it. Two things are really going for the western origin. The only area's where Corded Ware settlements are known is the most Western part and Finland. And the pottery.

But the nearness of GAC and the R1b in Polish CWC is also good evidence to keep a keen eye on.

rms2
07-09-2017, 04:42 PM
I need to read this paper (https://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction) again in light of Olalde et al.

rms2
07-09-2017, 05:25 PM
I need to read this paper (https://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction) again in light of Olalde et al.

I just finished rereading it. I urge everyone to read or reread that paper. IMHO, Olalde et al tends to make Jeunesse a prophet.

He was right.

R.Rocca
07-09-2017, 05:37 PM
I just finished rereading it. I urge everyone to read or reread that paper. IMHO, Olalde et al tends to make Jeunesse a prophet.

He was right.

I am more inclined to say that Sangmeister and his "Rückstrom" theory was a prophet.

rms2
07-09-2017, 05:39 PM
I am more inclined to say that Sangmeister and his "Rückstrom" theory was a prophet.

Sangmeister assumes an Iberian origin. I think Jeunesse is right, Maritime Bell Beaker was a western peripheral development, and the disputed early Iberian rc dates are wrong.

Thus Bell Beaker always was a straight-up east-central European phenomenon derived from the Pontic steppe.

Iberia was a distraction.

razyn
07-09-2017, 06:51 PM
Iberia was a distraction.
That's a little strong, but thinking DF27 started there was a distraction. (It really does succeed better there, vis-a-vis other haplogroups, than elsewhere; but not only there, and not first there. Its present day strength among Basques was and remains a major distraction.) The Celtic-from-the-west distraction gets very little reinforcement from the aDNA.

MitchellSince1893
07-09-2017, 07:39 PM
Y-Haplogroup origins and pottery origins are not necessarily closely correlated. As previously discussed, the spread of pottery may be more tied to mtDNA.
Having said that; the protroding foot beaker trail is supportive of my current thoughts.

Regardless, I know it's simplistic and potentially flawed, but as it relates to haplogroup origin for P312 (and U106), I can't help but look at present day distributions, known archaeology, and recent papers to help inform my opinion....as illustrated by the pouring of this bottle of L11/P310 north of the Black Sea and subsequent flow from east to west.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/48/b5/ac/48b5ac28d3c73af4f02b09ebfaf226e5.png

alan
07-09-2017, 08:28 PM
Chalcolithic and beaker Iberia has one massive issue with human bone dating. It's been established that, unlike most of final Neolithic / copper age Europe, therecis a lot of indisputable evidence for major marine and riverine aspects of diet. They create a reservoir effect that systematically makes radiocarbon date too old. Add that to the problem of reuse and disturbance of their collective tombs and I would take dating of Iberia beaker fro human bone with a bucket of salt. I simply don't know when the earliest reliable date for burial with beaker in Iberia is and I doubt anyone does. It's most convincing early dates are settlement sites with dates from animal bone. It does make me wonder if there was a phase where it was first used for non burial uses only. Personally I think early Iberian beaker is a hybrid of ideas that included corded ware

alan
07-09-2017, 08:45 PM
That's a little strong, but thinking DF27 started there was a distraction. (It really does succeed better there, vis-a-vis other haplogroups, than elsewhere; but not only there, and not first there. Its present day strength among Basques was and remains a major distraction.) The Celtic-from-the-west distraction gets very little reinforcement from the aDNA.

Celts from the west always seemed bollocks to me. Always smacked of romantic Atlanticism. It is impossible to reconcile it with the unique Celto-Germanic vocab which isn't shared with Italic and which predates the proto phases of either language. It's very obvious pre proto Celtic and pre proto Germanic were close neighbours at a time when Italic was already south of the Alps or otherwise remote. That contact almost certainly happened at some point between 2200 and 1200BC. Its virtually certain pre proto Germanic was within the Nordic Bronze Age zone so this very early shared vocab indicates they interfaced in or around central Germany. By the way this vocab is not the same as the later simple borrowing of Celtic words into Germanic in the iron age.

rms2
07-09-2017, 09:23 PM
That's a little strong, but thinking DF27 started there was a distraction. (It really does succeed better there, vis-a-vis other haplogroups, than elsewhere; but not only there, and not first there. Its present day strength among Basques was and remains a major distraction.) The Celtic-from-the-west distraction gets very little reinforcement from the aDNA.

Pretty obviously I meant Iberia as the Urheimat of Bell Beaker is a distraction.

Either Iberia was the place of origin for Bell Beaker or it wasn't. If it wasn't, then calling it a distraction isn't "a little strong".

I didn't have DF27 in mind, but I never have thought DF27 originated in Iberia.

alan
07-09-2017, 09:36 PM
The key mistake was defining the culture by pottery. If they had simply been thought of as 'late single grave people' who picked up pottery from the women they married as they networked, we would having thought about this in a very different way. We would chronologically track them from east to west as spreaders of individualism in burial, a warrior image package, horse riding, tanged daggers, bracers etc. We would likely see the beaker pot as just one pottery type they picked up through marriage networks just like the other companion Ware pottery. We would have seen the early south-western users of beakers for what they were -.a totally distinct people who shared nothing in common except one pot type. If they had they would have been in agreement with what DNA has revealed.

rms2
07-09-2017, 09:38 PM
The key mistake was defining the culture by pottery. If they had simply been thought of as 'late single grave people' who picked up pottery from the women they married as they networked, we would having thought about this in a very different way. We would chronologically track them from east to west as spreaders of a final stage individualism in burial, a warrior image package, horse riding, tanged daggers, bracers etc. We would likely see the beaker pot as just one pottery type they picked up through marriage networks just like the other companion
Ware pottery. We would have seen the early south-western users of beakers for what they were -.a totally distinct people who shared nothing in common except one pot type. If they had they would have been in agreement with what DNA has refrained.,

Could be that the pottery came from the East, as well, and, as Jeunesse says, in his exercise in "archaeology-fiction", Maritime was a style from the Atlantic periphery.

From page 164:



The maritime beaker would be considered as being a «peripheral»
production, characteristic of the western margins. It is possible without greater risk to bet that its emergence would have been related to a twofold process of impoverishment and homogenization of pottery decoration linked to the distance from the area of emergence of the Bell Beaker, a well-known mechanism for other historical contexts. It obviously would not be considered as being the earliest type of decorated beaker and one would do without the stereotype of a necessary evolution from the simplest to the most baroque shape. Its success in Portugal and more generally on the Atlantic shores would be connected with a phenomenon of regionalization, quite a natural process for a culture occupying such a large territory over such a long period of time. The same applies to the other «western» traits the formation of which would be analysed as resulting from geographical distance and from interactions with local substrata.

alan
07-09-2017, 09:52 PM
The key mistake was defining the culture by pottery. If they had simply been thought of as 'late single grave people' who picked up pottery from the women they married as they networked, we would having thought about this in a very different way. We would chronologically track them from east to west as spreaders of individualism in burial, a warrior image package, horse riding, tanged daggers, bracers etc. We would likely see the beaker pot as just one pottery type they picked up through marriage networks just like the other companion Ware pottery. We would have seen the early south-western users of beakers for what they were -.a totally distinct people who shared nothing in common except one pot type. If they had they would have been in agreement with what DNA has revealed. the other thing is not to get too hung up on the beaker burial orientations. The more the you look into the clearer it is that beaker single burial orientations varied over both time and space. Here is an off th cuff thought - were beaker males buried on their left side simply because it left their right arm- the drawing arm of most archers - free?
Of

alan
07-09-2017, 10:23 PM
Could be that the pottery came from the East, as well, and, as Jeunesse says, in his exercise in "archaeology-fiction", Maritime was a style from the Atlantic periphery.

From page 164:
Intuitively it has always felt to me that central and NW European bell Beaker looks like a v close cousin or odd outgroup of corded ware. Non Iberian beaker cultures dating would allow it to be some late Corded ware related outgroup whose lrole/lifestyle/marriage patterns made them able to absorb an eclectic range of influences. I suspect this group existed for a centuries before they developed a distinctive archaeological footprint that H&H called the full beaker package. I suspect the group had the same lifestyle and outgroup specialist role for 2-3 centuries before the full beaker package gave us a material footprint tracking devise to follow them. Someone was clearly fulfilling the role of controlling trade and metals in the pre beaker CW world prior to the full beaker package and IMO it was likely the P312 or L11 lineages. The techniques of metallurgy are no different in Central Europe between CW and beaker phases. The only difference is the prominence of the metalworker/trader/warrior figure in graves is greater after 2500BC. I would still feel the pre beaker P312 or L11 lineages were specialist horse riding traders and metallurgists much as their beaker descendants in central and NW Europe and I suspect we might find these y lines in pre- beaker central and Eastern European graves which have indications of being that of metallurgists/traders

alan
07-09-2017, 10:48 PM
Could be that the pottery came from the East, as well, and, as Jeunesse says, in his exercise in "archaeology-fiction", Maritime was a style from the Atlantic periphery.

From page 164:

My view from the v similar dating of the earliest beaker pots in Iberia and the arrival of CW at the Rhine is the most likely origin of some aspects of early Iberian beaker came from contact with CW people travelling within the Grand Presigny trade network which spanned from north Germany to the French-Spanish border. I suspect the rare corded beakers of north and east Spain may be the missing link

Gravetto-Danubian
07-10-2017, 12:14 AM
My view from the v similar dating of the earliest beaker pots in Iberia and the arrival of CW at the Rhine is the most likely origin of some aspects of early Iberian beaker came from contact with CW people travelling within the Grand Presigny trade network which spanned from north Germany to the French-Spanish border. I suspect the rare corded beakers of north and east Spain may be the missing link

I agree. There is a cluster of AOC beakers in NW Iberia, which could date to early M3.


Intuitively it has always felt to me that central and NW European bell Beaker looks like a v close cousin or odd outgroup of corded ware. Non Iberian beaker cultures dating would allow it to be some late Corded ware related outgroup whose lrole/lifestyle/marriage patterns made them able to absorb an eclectic range of influences. I suspect this group existed for a centuries before they developed a distinctive archaeological footprint that H&H called the full beaker package. I suspect the group had the same lifestyle and outgroup specialist role for 2-3 centuries before the full beaker package gave us a material footprint tracking devise to follow them. Someone was clearly fulfilling the role of controlling trade and metals in the pre beaker CW world prior to the full beaker package and IMO it was likely the P312 or L11 lineages. The techniques of metallurgy are no different in Central Europe between CW and beaker phases. The only difference is the prominence of the metalworker/trader/warrior figure in graves is greater after 2500BC. I would still feel the pre beaker P312 or L11 lineages were specialist horse riding traders and metallurgists much as their beaker descendants in central and NW Europe and I suspect we might find these y lines in pre- beaker central and Eastern European graves which have indications of being that of metallurgists/traders

BB doesn't seem to correlate with metallurgy, as you have pointed out before.
In fact, copper is still rare in many parts of the BB world, eg the north (Dutch, north German). The copper traditions seem to have been in the south - SE France, Portugal inhabited by I2a2 metalsmiths. So the early north Beaker folk were perhaps drawn by this
The beaker warrior package was also not very common, perhaps apart from the Danube area. Outside that, it appears in few individuals here and there, incl. the Amesbury Archer.
I am also inclied to think that the BB 'East' group isn't the be all and end all for steppic-BB groups, because the British BB are associated with AOC (incl the A.A.) , which is rare in BB East, but is a feature of the Rhine-Rhone axis.
So i thus think the BB East group were the proto-U152s, and L21 came from the Rhine; and the question remains is what links all 3 groups (Atlantic - Maritime; Rhine-Rhone AOCs, and BB East) ?

epp
07-10-2017, 12:38 PM
My analysis of modern-day y-DNA distributions estimates that Corded Ware would most likely have resulted from contact between incoming R1b-L51 people in Northern and Eastern France and an indigenous R1a-M417 German-based population. How L51 came to be in France is hard to say, but my analysis estimates its most likely ancestry to have been Western fringe Yamna (Upper Danube), in which case it would probably have arrived via just South or North of the Alps. The analysis would suggest that (population-wise) L51 generally had the upper hand, with U152 and then U106 moving Eastwards and pushing M417 populations in the same direction, and other L51 (mainly P312) moving Westwards into Britain and Iberia.

rms2
07-10-2017, 08:30 PM
Until we get some y-dna from the Corded Ware/Single Grave culture of the Netherlands, all of this is going to be academic.

Personally, I think Rich Rocca is on the right track, although I am still holding out hope for Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin.

epp
07-10-2017, 11:03 PM
Until we get some y-dna from the Corded Ware/Single Grave culture of the Netherlands, all of this is going to be academic.
Agreed, although a limitation of archaeological dna from my perspective is that it could be tracking dead ends, rather than the ancestors of surviving populations.

Do we have clear evidence of where the earliest CW sites were? The further East this was, I suppose the less likely that P312 originated within it. CW seems to have collapsed just as M417 was dispersing Eastwards, whereas P312 seems to have thrived just as CW was coming to an end, so P312 might have remained relatively untouched by it.

rms2
07-11-2017, 01:37 AM
Agreed, although a limitation of archaeological dna from my perspective is that it could be tracking dead ends, rather than the ancestors of surviving populations.

Do we have clear evidence of where the earliest CW sites were? The further East this was, I suppose the less likely that P312 originated within it. CW seems to have collapsed just as M417 was dispersing Eastwards, whereas P312 seems to have thrived just as CW was coming to an end, so P312 might have remained relatively untouched by it.

That's a good question.

I would not say "The further East this was, I suppose the less likely that P312 originated within it", except that I doubt P312 originated in Japan. It could have originated fairly far east in Eastern Europe, however. All that is necessary is that it was in the vanguard of the movement west.

People are still hamstrung by modern distribution, IMHO. Where P312 is now is not necessarily reflective of where it started out.

alan
07-11-2017, 10:33 AM
A possibility I have pondered for a long time is that P312 perhaps did end up in later CW but was a stray line they encorporated from another pre beaker culture. We don't have P312 in CW but the incorporation of U106 as a minority lineage into later battie axe areas in Sweden is a v close phylogenic, chronological and cultural parallel. The fact U106 seems to have gone on to be significant in the post-beaker Swedish Bronze Age suggests it was not marginal and indeed may have been a high status lineage. I would still feel high status traders is most likely

As to what culture, it remains a fact that the closest y lines to beaker P312 found in pre beaker ancient DNA are Yamnaya (or likely Yamnaya derived) albeit that it's not very close. Not very close but the best we have and of course sharing a common ancestor in the 4000sBC

MitchellSince1893
07-11-2017, 01:45 PM
A possibility I have pondered for a long time is that P312 perhaps did end up in later CW but was a stray line they encorporated from another pre beaker culture. We don't have P312 in CW but the incorporation of U106 as a minority lineage into later battie axe areas in Sweden is a v close phylogenic, chronological and cultural parallel. The fact U106 seems to have gone on to be significant in the post-beaker Swedish Bronze Age suggests it was not marginal and indeed may have been a high status lineage. I would still feel high status traders is most likely

As to what culture, it remains a fact that the closest y lines to beaker P312 found in pre beaker ancient DNA are Yamnaya (or likely Yamnaya derived) albeit that it's not very close. Not very close but the best we have and of course sharing a common ancestor in the 4000sBC

What about the Budzhak Culture which began around 3100 BC as previously discussed here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=245590&viewfull=1#post245590
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=245597&viewfull=1#post245597

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/75/4c/f1/754cf1a29ab1505ebab513cafaed3a46.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/48/b5/ac/48b5ac28d3c73af4f02b09ebfaf226e5.png

R.Rocca
07-11-2017, 05:37 PM
That's a good question.

I would not say "The further East this was, I suppose the less likely that P312 originated within it", except that I doubt P312 originated in Japan. It could have originated fairly far east in Eastern Europe, however. All that is necessary is that it was in the vanguard of the movement west.

People are still hamstrung by modern distribution, IMHO. Where P312 is now is not necessarily reflective of where it started out.

The expansion of Corded Ware south west of the Rhine is also a very interesting area. I think it is yet another potential fusion point between L51 men from the steppe and pottery producing women from the west. Below is an All-Over-Corded beaker map I marked up to show their contemporaneity, including the Hégenheim woman who lacked steppe ancestry and was buried with a mixed cord/comb maritime beaker. The distances between sites was likely negligible on horseback.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Alsace_Corded_Ware.png

While I agree that modern frequency is not all that useful, I find it useful when trying to prove my own points (LOL), so I should mention that the modern frequency of R1a in modern day Alsace is only 4%. It is logical to think it may have been even less before the Germanic expansion. Either way, I think these dates highlight how close steppe and non-steppe derived beaker producing cultures were to one another much further east of Iberia, even in the earlier periods. As I've mentioned before, I still think there is something rather "fishy" about the Iberian dates. :D

MitchellSince1893
07-11-2017, 10:01 PM
...While I agree that modern frequency is not all that useful, I find it useful when trying to prove my own points
I LOLed on that one.

So you are in the partial reflux boat at the moment. Not BB refluxing east from Iberia but from the upper Rhine back towards the Eastern BB area.

As you've previously mentioned another area where BB and Corded ware were in close proximity was Moravia.
http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Heyd_BB_CWC_Relationships.png

The Komrany site being half way between corded ware and BB. This was the 25th Century BC or about 0 to 400 years after your 3 Upper Rhine sites so that would fit your narrative.

But we have to keep in mind that we may be mixing apples and oranges here. The origin of P312 isn't necessarily the same as the origin of BB (I know RR is aware of this but others may not be). P312 could have formed further east somewhere in the late 4th millennium BC, gathering TRB/GAC admixture, bringing corded ware/corded ware related culture with it to the Upper Rhine where it met Bell Beaker as you suggest above.

But once you get below P312 e.g. L21, DF27, U152 etc in the early 3rd millennium BC it becomes less clear. Did they form near the Alps or further east e.g. Moravia or north/east of the Carpathians, along the Danube route (IMO less likely due to absence of TRB/GAC) or possibly Carpathian basin? We may never know unless we get lucky with some lottery winning ancient dna.

epp
07-11-2017, 10:36 PM
People are still hamstrung by modern distribution, IMHO. Where P312 is now is not necessarily reflective of where it started out.
True. I agree that modern frequency distributions are of little information value, but in my opinion modern distributions of variance within subclades are indicative of most likely point of origin. In this case, it is of course possible that L51 and all of its subclades and sub-subclades each originated in far Eastern Europe, stayed together as a unit for thousands of years, migrated en masse to far Western Europe and then dispersed in all directions (divided according to subclade) once they got there, but to me this does not seem to be the most likely scenario.

The areas noted above are pretty much all the most interesting ones to me, as they form the borders between my most likely estimates for R1b and R1a locations at approximately that time (R1b just West of the Rhine and just South of Bavaria & Moravia, R1a East of the Rhine and North of Bavaria & Moravia).

parasar
07-12-2017, 03:03 AM
Agreed, although a limitation of archaeological dna from my perspective is that it could be tracking dead ends, rather than the ancestors of surviving populations.

Do we have clear evidence of where the earliest CW sites were? The further East this was, I suppose the less likely that P312 originated within it. CW seems to have collapsed just as M417 was dispersing Eastwards, whereas P312 seems to have thrived just as CW was coming to an end, so P312 might have remained relatively untouched by it.

I would say the Baltic, where CW does not have the EEF seen in central European CW. As they moved SW they picked up EEF.

It does not appear we are any closer to resolving the CW BB issue than we were in the Kromsdorf-Eulau days. I still think that R1b was present in Central Europe prior to the expansion of R1a CW from the east. We have known for many years that the Eulau folk clearly took a beating. At whose hands if not the dominant R1b late Neolithic BB types?

Romilius
07-12-2017, 12:41 PM
I would say the Baltic, where CW does not have the EEF seen in central European CW. As they moved SW they picked up EEF.

It does not appear we are any closer to resolving the CW BB issue than we were in the Kromsdorf-Eulau days. I still think that R1b was present in Central Europe prior to the expansion of R1a CW from the east. We have known for many years that the Eulau folk clearly took a beating. At whose hands if not the dominant R1b late Neolithic BB types?

Is it possible? Doesn't Corded Ware predates Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

kinman
07-12-2017, 01:12 PM
I would agree with that with the exception of R1b-U106, which seems to be more closely associated with R1a than with their R1b relatives.



The areas noted above are pretty much all the most interesting ones to me, as they form the borders between my most likely estimates for R1b and R1a locations at approximately that time (R1b just West of the Rhine and just South of Bavaria & Moravia, R1a East of the Rhine and North of Bavaria & Moravia).

parasar
07-12-2017, 02:31 PM
Is it possible? Doesn't Corded Ware predates Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

R1b may have predated BB in central Europe. I.e. the BB culture moving from Iberia was adopted by the R1b folk. This had to be quick for them to reach Britain by 2400BC (from central Europe).

Is there any BB R1b sample without any EEF (similar to R1a CW samples with no EEF)?

kinman
07-12-2017, 02:34 PM
Hi Mitchell,
I'm not sure what you mean by Danube route. Perhaps just the Danube west of the Carpathian basin? And also not sure how it is less likely due to absence of TRB/GAC.



But once you get below P312 e.g. L21, DF27, U152 etc in the early 3rd millennium BC it becomes less clear. Did they form near the Alps or further east e.g. Moravia or north/east of the Carpathians, along the Danube route (IMO less likely due to absence of TRB/GAC) or possibly Carpathian basin? We may never know unless we get lucky with some lottery winning ancient dna.

MitchellSince1893
07-12-2017, 04:34 PM
Hi Mitchell,
I'm not sure what you mean by Danube route. Perhaps just the Danube west of the Carpathian basin? And also not sure how it is less likely due to absence of TRB/GAC.
In the recent Olade paper non Iberian BB tended to have a TRB/GAC component. This characteristic was very telling between the two Bell Beaker groups. The most obvious place to pick up this ancestry is in the TRB/GAC territory both of which are north of the Danube, which to me gives weight to a north of the Carpathian route for P310/P311/P312, compared to up the lower Danube route. At some point travelers of the north of the Carpathian route could have later taken the upper Danube route from say Moravia.

See TRB/GAC maps in this post http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=254687&viewfull=1#post254687

alan
07-12-2017, 05:05 PM
Hi Mitchell,
I'm not sure what you mean by Danube route. Perhaps just the Danube west of the Carpathian basin? And also not sure how it is less likely due to absence of TRB/GAC.

The modern divide between L51 and Z2103 is highly suggestive that L51 only reached the Danube after travelling around the northern flanks of the Carpathians passing through SW Ukraine, southernmost Poland and eastern Czech Republic before finally accessing the Danube around the east Austria/west Slovakia/south-east Czech/ NW Hungary interface zone around Bratislava,Brno and Vienna.

razyn
07-12-2017, 06:26 PM
The modern divide between L51 and Z2103 is highly suggestive that L51 only reached the Danube after travelling around the northern flanks of the Carpathians
I have no idea whether this is right, but I'm pleased that somebody else is finally noticing the possibility. In which case, they passed (or reached, or crossed) the upper Danube on the way to the northern foothills of the Alps. Floating down the Rhine with L21, the Amesbury Archer, and other guys headed for the sceptred Isles might have happened later. Meanwhile U152 was discovering Italy, DF27 was looking farther west for tin, etc. Just juggling scenarios while we wait for more definitive aDNA.

Dewsloth
07-12-2017, 07:32 PM
True. I agree that modern frequency distributions are of little information value, but in my opinion modern distributions of variance within subclades are indicative of most likely point of origin. In this case, it is of course possible that L51 and all of its subclades and sub-subclades each originated in far Eastern Europe, stayed together as a unit for thousands of years, migrated en masse to far Western Europe and then dispersed in all directions (divided according to subclade) once they got there, but to me this does not seem to be the most likely scenario.

The areas noted above are pretty much all the most interesting ones to me, as they form the borders between my most likely estimates for R1b and R1a locations at approximately that time (R1b just West of the Rhine and just South of Bavaria & Moravia, R1a East of the Rhine and North of Bavaria & Moravia).

Well, some of the subclades (e.g. L21, U106) are so big you can't see the trees for the forest, but DF19 is small enough to see something other than omnipresence on a map (of course the obvious danger is then too small of a sample size, so this may mean very little even before modern distribution issues arise). DF19 should be somewhere, but hasn't shown up in either CW or BB (or anywhere else until 6DRIF23 in late Roman period), yet.

But, just for fun here's DF19 (one step below P312)
17087

You can see Alex's breakdown here - I'm happy to see more DF19s have been recently added (most are just at the FTDNA Group site):
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=183


Here are the top clades under DF19 The first major split is between DF88 and Z302, both of which appear to be nearly as old as DF19 (identical TMRCAs on Yfull):
17508

Here are all the listed subclades of Z17112 (despite what Alex's Tree shows, 6DRIF23 is a Z17112, but would not be on one of these maps -- he is close to the subclade mapped at grid B1, but all B1 are L644+ and he's negative. Z17112 is 4 "levels" below DF19, and maybe 1000 years younger, according to Yfull.

17474

So you have a subclade of P312 represented by a heavy belt across Germany through parts of Ireland including all countries in between. Each main subclade also has a lighter representation further north, so maybe they were pushed out or outbred, but it's funny how many of the different subclades (especially the early ones) have a guy up north.
Also a few hits from Moravia to southern Poland, so again, maybe coincidence, or maybe not.

They're all over the British Isles, so either they came over along as early as L21 or a migration or two afterwords. Maybe they are expanding out of Urnfield, Halstatt and/or Jastorf territory?

The admins at the group are in the process of coming up with new age estimates, I'm looking forward to those. I'm also looking forward to further analysis of those announced samples that are just "P312+" so far...

epp
07-12-2017, 08:30 PM
I would say the Baltic, where CW does not have the EEF seen in central European CW. As they moved SW they picked up EEF.

It does not appear we are any closer to resolving the CW BB issue than we were in the Kromsdorf-Eulau days. I still think that R1b was present in Central Europe prior to the expansion of R1a CW from the east. We have known for many years that the Eulau folk clearly took a beating. At whose hands if not the dominant R1b late Neolithic BB types?
This ties up pretty much exactly with my 'most likely' estimates from modern DNA data.

epp
07-12-2017, 08:37 PM
I would agree with that with the exception of R1b-U106, which seems to be more closely associated with R1a than with their R1b relatives.
I read this as U106 being the only incursive R1b-L51 group to have ended up collaborating with R1a-M417.

epp
07-12-2017, 08:44 PM
.....

epp
07-12-2017, 08:48 PM
The modern divide between L51 and Z2103 is highly suggestive that L51 only reached the Danube after travelling around the northern flanks of the Carpathians passing through SW Ukraine, southernmost Poland and eastern Czech Republic before finally accessing the Danube around the east Austria/west Slovakia/south-east Czech/ NW Hungary interface zone around Bratislava,Brno and Vienna.
Possibly, although I read Z2103 as being a Southern group (East Balkan/Anatolian).

kinman
07-12-2017, 10:54 PM
I certainly agree that P312 ended up in the Bratislava area (my favorite spot for where U152 originated). Starting in Moldova, P312 could have gotten to Bratislava (1) going up the Danube, (2) going north of the Carpathians (along with U106), or (3) even by both routes. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
There certainly wasn't much reason to expand south of the Danube or into Anatolia, since Z2103 probably occupied those niches in an earlier Kurgan wave. I'll have to give all this more thought, but I'm not yet ready to give up on P312 going up the Danube to Bratislava.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The modern divide between L51 and Z2103 is highly suggestive that L51 only reached the Danube after travelling around the northern flanks of the Carpathians passing through SW Ukraine, southernmost Poland and eastern Czech Republic before finally accessing the Danube around the east Austria/west Slovakia/south-east Czech/ NW Hungary interface zone around Bratislava,Brno and Vienna.

Generalissimo
07-12-2017, 11:59 PM
I would say the Baltic, where CW does not have the EEF seen in central European CW. As they moved SW they picked up EEF.

It does not appear we are any closer to resolving the CW BB issue than we were in the Kromsdorf-Eulau days. I still think that R1b was present in Central Europe prior to the expansion of R1a CW from the east. We have known for many years that the Eulau folk clearly took a beating. At whose hands if not the dominant R1b late Neolithic BB types?

Some of the last of the MN farmers. The arrow heads they used implicated them in the crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aef8NSGtrGA

So definitely not BBs.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-13-2017, 01:19 AM
Some of the last of the MN farmers. The arrow heads they used implicated them in the crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aef8NSGtrGA

So definitely not BBs.

It was thought to be the Schoningen culture, a cremating group to the north
Not much about it in English, brief mention here (http://journal.topoi.org/index.php/etopoi/article/viewFile/182/212)

parasar
07-13-2017, 02:16 AM
Some of the last of the MN farmers. The arrow heads they used implicated them in the crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aef8NSGtrGA

So definitely not BBs.

We don't know that these were not BB or other CW for that matter, as both BB and CW could have used stone flint arrows too.
Plus many of them were hacked by battle-axes.

"Regarding the arrowheads themselves ... of a typical Corded Ware design and therefore are not unusual for this time or region."
The Eulau Eulogy: Bioarchaeological Interpretation of Lethal Violence in Corded Ware Multiple Burials from Saxony-Anhalt, Germany

alan
07-13-2017, 04:05 AM
I certainly agree that P312 ended up in the Bratislava area (my favorite spot for where U152 originated). Starting in Moldova, P312 could have gotten to Bratislava (1) going up the Danube, (2) going north of the Carpathians (along with U106), or (3) even by both routes. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
There certainly wasn't much reason to expand south of the Danube or into Anatolia, since Z2103 probably occupied those niches in an earlier Kurgan wave. I'll have to give all this more thought, but I'm not yet ready to give up on P312 going up the Danube to Bratislava.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certainly modernn distribution of L51 derivatives v Z2103 strongly favours the former having taken the route around the northern slopes of the Carpathians and the latter taking the Lower Danube route south of the Carpathians. IMO that fits the archaeology too as Yamnaya in it's steppe form seems to be confined to steppe-like niches along the Lower Danube. We know on the steppe this is Z2103 dominated. However as cultures like CW show, genetically steppe people did settle other types of land once they had formed new cultures adapted to the new environment.

T101
07-13-2017, 09:29 AM
I certainly agree that P312 ended up in the Bratislava area (my favorite spot for where U152 originated). Starting in Moldova, P312 could have gotten to Bratislava (1) going up the Danube, (2) going north of the Carpathians (along with U106), or (3) even by both routes. I guess we will just have to wait and see.
There certainly wasn't much reason to expand south of the Danube or into Anatolia, since Z2103 probably occupied those niches in an earlier Kurgan wave. I'll have to give all this more thought, but I'm not yet ready to give up on P312 going up the Danube to Bratislava.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree also on Bratislava for U152. That region is a prime location for trade and the movement of people. Bratislava is not only on the confluence of the Morava and Danube rivers, it is also on the ancient Amber Road with access north to Silesia, Poland and Germany through the Moravian gate. There are nearby salt mines located in Austria, easily defensible hilltops, and rich bottom farmland that make that region ideal for the growth of P312, and the origin, growth and dispersal of its subclades especially U152.

I however agree with Alan that the northern route around the Carpathians, (through the Moravian gate to reach the Danube,) for L51 is much more plausible due to Z2103, I2 and G2 occupying the lower Danube right up through Hungary.

alan
07-13-2017, 10:09 AM
I agree also on Bratislava for U152. That region is a prime location for trade and the movement of people. Bratislava is not only on the confluence of the Morava and Danube rivers, it is also on the ancient Amber Road with access north to Silesia, Poland and Germany through the Moravian gate. There are nearby salt mines located in Austria, easily defensible hilltops, and rich bottom farmland that make that region ideal for the growth of P312, and the origin, growth and dispersal of its subclades especially U152.

I however agree with Alan that the northern route around the Carpathians, (through the Moravian gate to reach the Danube,) for L51 is much more plausible due to Z2103, I2 and G2 occupying the lower Danube right up through Hungary.

The only other possibility is that L51 moved up the Danube first and Z2103 followed up behind it erasing its traces in the lower and middle Danube. I find that very hard to believe though. The languages that many think were displaced from the loweR Danube and north or east Balkans (Armenian,Greek, Albanian and perhaps Anatolian) are very obviously not linked to the L51 branch and in fact have some correlation with Z2103 and to a lesser extent M269xL23. There simply does not appear to be any equivelent remnants of displaced L51 associated languages or peoples formerly of the Lower Danube ( despite all those mountains to retreat to to the north and south)

alan
07-13-2017, 10:30 AM
It's always best to go with the evidence even if it's v limited. It looks to me that L51 slipped west between a Z2103 Yamnaya thrust along the Lower to middle Danube to the south and an R1a dominant CW thrust through Northern Europe. The paper genealogy trick if you can't find your ancestor look for their siblings or cousins and we do at least have U106 in battle axe and Nordic Bronze Age Scandi. Probably the hardest evidence is autosomal DNA indicating a substrate in beaker coming from GAC and TRB. That strongly tends to point to a route north of the Carpathians for L11/P312. Finally the evidence for L11's date of branching and apparently hitting some sort of good times seems to pre date central European bell beaker

kinman
07-13-2017, 02:23 PM
Well after giving it more thought (and digesting the posts in this thread), I am now convinced that the north of the Carpathians route is the more likely route for the L51 groups.

Now I am wondering about the genetic testing for ancient samples along this route. Since P312 didn't directly give rise to U152, is it likely that researchers will also be testing for the haplogroup markers in between them (Z40481 and ZZ11)? Or is that too much to expect for initial tests of ancient samples?


It's always best to go with the evidence even if it's v limited. It looks to me that L51 slipped west between a Z2103 Yamnaya thrust along the Lower to middle Danube to the south and an R1a dominant CW thrust through Northern Europe. The paper genealogy trick if you can't find your ancestor look for their siblings or cousins and we do at least have U106 in battle axe and Nordic Bronze Age Scandi. Probably the hardest evidence is autosomal DNA indicating a substrate in beaker coming from GAC and TRB. That strongly tends to point to a route north of the Carpathians for L11/P312. Finally the evidence for L11's date of branching and apparently hitting some sort of good times seems to pre date central European bell beaker

MitchellSince1893
07-13-2017, 02:40 PM
Well after giving it more thought (and digesting the posts in this thread), I am now convinced that the north of the Carpathians route is the more likely route for the L51 groups.

Now I am wondering about the genetic testing for ancient samples along this route. Since P312 didn't directly give rise to U152, is it likely that researchers will also be testing for the haplogroup markers in between them (Z40481 and ZZ11)? Or is that too much to expect for initial tests of ancient samples?

They probably won't be testing for Z40481 or ZZ11, but when their results are made public, citizen scientists like Richard Rocca can look for these mutations. Right now we are greatly anticipating the public release of the Olade samples so that we can see if there any additional discoveries to be made. I'm sure there will be.

epp
07-13-2017, 11:37 PM
That strongly tends to point to a route north of the Carpathians for L11/P312.
Wouldn't the route taken only be significant if it were a gradual (rather than a sudden) migration? For example, with Syrian migrants suddenly moving into Germany recently, it's not so important to know whether they came via the Danube, across the Steppes or up Italy - the important things are that their ancestry is Syrian and their descendance will be German. If we could see that it were a gradual migration, with settlers stopping off on route, then that would be a different matter.


Finally the evidence for L11's date of branching and apparently hitting some sort of good times seems to pre date central European bell beaker I agree, this is what my own estimates indicate. However, perhaps this is because L11 might not have branched and hit its initial good times in Central Europe, but in North Western Europe? And perhaps Bell Beaker in Central Europe only arose later because L11 only migrated there later?

My question is - if P312 originated within Corded Ware, why would Corded Ware have died out so quickly, just as P312 was still thriving and spreading?

Elizabeth
07-14-2017, 02:50 AM
Some of the last of the MN farmers. The arrow heads they used implicated them in the crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aef8NSGtrGA

So definitely not BBs.

What does "MN" mean?

Thank you for the video link but I don't understand German. Can you or someone else explain the gist of the 13 minute video in a sentence? In English please. I googled Eulau and got this https://www.livescience.com/3090-grave-reveals-violent-death-ancient-family.html .

Do you mean the arrowheads were from Corded Ware people?

Who killed the family from Eulau?

Romilius
07-14-2017, 06:38 AM
What does "MN" mean?

Thank you for the video link but I don't understand German. Can you or someone else explain the gist of the 13 minute video in a sentence? In English please. I googled Eulau and got this https://www.livescience.com/3090-grave-reveals-violent-death-ancient-family.html .

Do you mean the arrowheads were from Corded Ware people?

Who killed the family from Eulau?

MN = Middle Neolithic

Generalissimo said that the Corded Ware family from Eulau was killed by Middle Neolithic farmers. The arrowheads found are of the shape generally present in Middle Neolithic sites. So, the arrowheads were from Middle Neolithic farmers.

I'm sorry to answer to a question not addressed to me.

Romilius
07-14-2017, 06:40 AM
R1b may have predated BB in central Europe. I.e. the BB culture moving from Iberia was adopted by the R1b folk. This had to be quick for them to reach Britain by 2400BC (from central Europe).

Is there any BB R1b sample without any EEF (similar to R1a CW samples with no EEF)?

And the proof of what you're saying?

epp
07-14-2017, 09:48 AM
And the proof of what you're saying?
My apologies too for answering a question not addressed to me, but Parasar only said may have and can't really be expected to prove something only suggested as a possibility.
Various forms of the most diverse R1b-P297 are all present in Central Europe and I think it is generally accepted that P297 originated long before 2,400 BC, so I would certainly agree that R1b predating BB in Central Europe is at least a reasonable possibility. The question is - was its P312 subclade within Corded Ware?

Elizabeth
07-14-2017, 07:19 PM
MN = Middle Neolithic

Generalissimo said that the Corded Ware family from Eulau was killed by Middle Neolithic farmers. The arrowheads found are of the shape generally present in Middle Neolithic sites. So, the arrowheads were from Middle Neolithic farmers.

I'm sorry to answer to a question not addressed to me.


Thank you so much :)
Don't be sorry, I wanted anyone to answer.

epp
07-14-2017, 09:33 PM
The results of my analysis of modern day DNA variance from FTDNA databases indicate the following 'most likely' estimates -
At the start of Corded Ware - R1a-M417 was present in Germany, Poland, Belarus, NW Russia, Norway, Sweden and Denmark; R1b-L51 was present in Northern France, along the Rhine, in the Low Countries and Britain.
During Corded Ware - L51 was moving Eastwards (P312/U152 into Southern Germany; U106 into Northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden); M417 was mostly moving Eastwards out of Germany.
At the end of Corded Ware - U106 was moving further Eastwards into Poland; some branches of M417 were moving South Eastwards into Ukraine, Southern Russia and South West Asia.

I would say the possibility that best fits with this is that Corded Ware developed wholly within R1a areas, although perhaps some P312 & U106 adopted it when they moved into these areas. It looks to me like Corded Ware might have collapsed with R1a being chased Eastwards. P312 that did not move significantly into R1a areas (L21, DF27, DF19, DF99) did not seem to adopt it, so it does not really look like a P312 phenomenon.

parasar
07-14-2017, 09:48 PM
What does "MN" mean?

Thank you for the video link but I don't understand German. Can you or someone else explain the gist of the 13 minute video in a sentence? In English please. I googled Eulau and got this https://www.livescience.com/3090-grave-reveals-violent-death-ancient-family.html .

Do you mean the arrowheads were from Corded Ware people?

Who killed the family from Eulau?

No one knows - the arrows were of the Corded Ware period, so could have used by anybody, late Neolithics/BB/CW.
"of a typical Corded Ware design and therefore are not unusual for this time or region."

The battle axes could also have been used by anyone - nothing unusual for the place or time.

Kristian Kristiansen has speculated that it was violent retribution by the farmers.
https://www.livescience.com/58555-corded-ware-culture-arose-from-intermarriages.html

MitchellSince1893
07-14-2017, 09:48 PM
The results of my analysis of modern day DNA variance from FTDNA databases indicate the following 'most likely' estimates -
At the start of Corded Ware - R1a-M417 was present in Germany, Poland, Belarus, NW Russia, Norway, Sweden and Denmark; R1b-L51 was present in Northern France, along the Rhine, in the Low Countries and Britain.
During Corded Ware - L51 was moving Eastwards (P312/U152 into Southern Germany; U106 into Northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden); M417 was mostly moving Eastwards out of Germany.
At the end of Corded Ware - U106 was moving further Eastwards into Poland; some branches of M417 were moving South Eastwards into Ukraine, Southern Russia and South West Asia.

I would say the possibility that best fits with this is that Corded Ware developed wholly within R1a areas, although perhaps some P312 & U106 adopted it when they moved into these areas. It looks to me like Corded Ware might have collapsed with R1a being chased Eastwards. P312 that did not move significantly into R1a areas (L21, DF27, DF19, DF99) did not seem to adopt it, so it does not really look like a P312 phenomenon.

Could you elaborate on the specific steps of your analysis of modern day DNA variance? Variance in STRs within SNP blocks, or the amount of variation of SNPs in a given region? Just trying to understand your analysis process.

epp
07-14-2017, 10:18 PM
Could you elaborate on the specific steps of your analysis of modern day DNA variance? Variance in STRs within SNP blocks, or the amount of variation of SNPs in a given region? Just trying to understand your analysis process.
Variance in STRs within SNP blocks. Within each block, I divided samples into the two groups in which STR variance was maximised, and then repeated this process for each of the groups, looking at the range of known geographical origin for each base mini-group and working backwards. When FTDNA gives a good sample size, it produces pretty consistent 'most likely' results, although sometimes not the results I am expecting.

For Corded Ware and P312, I am interested to know how my results tie up (if at all) with current opinion. I have read various views, and am not sure if there is any general consensus.

Dewsloth
07-14-2017, 10:33 PM
The results of my analysis of modern day DNA variance from FTDNA databases indicate the following 'most likely' estimates -
At the start of Corded Ware - R1a-M417 was present in Germany, Poland, Belarus, NW Russia, Norway, Sweden and Denmark; R1b-L51 was present in Northern France, along the Rhine, in the Low Countries and Britain.
During Corded Ware - L51 was moving Eastwards (P312/U152 into Southern Germany; U106 into Northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden); M417 was mostly moving Eastwards out of Germany.
At the end of Corded Ware - U106 was moving further Eastwards into Poland; some branches of M417 were moving South Eastwards into Ukraine, Southern Russia and South West Asia.

I would say the possibility that best fits with this is that Corded Ware developed wholly within R1a areas, although perhaps some P312 & U106 adopted it when they moved into these areas. It looks to me like Corded Ware might have collapsed with R1a being chased Eastwards. P312 that did not move significantly into R1a areas (L21, DF27, DF19, DF99) did not seem to adopt it, so it does not really look like a P312 phenomenon.

Do you have an opinion on when in this process L238 moved north?

EDIT: For anyone unfamiliar with L238:

17557

MitchellSince1893
07-14-2017, 11:09 PM
Variance in STRs within SNP blocks. Within each block, I divided samples into the two groups in which STR variance was maximised, and then repeated this process for each of the groups, looking at the range of known geographical origin for each base mini-group and working backwards. When FTDNA gives a good sample size, it produces pretty consistent 'most likely' results, although sometimes not the results I am expecting.

For Corded Ware and P312, I am interested to know how my results tie up (if at all) with current opinion. I have read various views, and am not sure if there is any general consensus.

I'm really interested in this. If it's not too much trouble (I would like to try your procedure on some U152 SNP blocks), could you walk me through it?

1. I assume your data source is something like the FTDNA P312 project, and that you filter within a SNP block by the country column?

2. When you divide the samples into two groups (within a block) what criteria are you using to group...specifically how are you doing this so I could replicate?

Maybe I could give you a section of the U152 project and you could walk me through it? For example the

U152> L2> Z258,Z367,Z384> L20 et al. (.Please order CTS9733 or Z1910 or Z291 or BY3586 or BY3598 or BY5690 or the R1b-Z367 SNPs pack or BigY)

section on the first page of this link towards the bottom (with default 500 line setting) https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=yresults.

alan
07-14-2017, 11:24 PM
I think bell beaker radiocarbon dates outside Iberia need revisited. There seem to be many new dates and right now I am no longer sure what direction of spread they imply in the area between the Rhine and carpathians.