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Gravetto-Danubian
07-26-2017, 03:10 AM
The only thing I fail to grasp is it does seem to affect only males?. Maybe I am missing some information on the subject?.


Speculative, but I can see you could very easily be right with mass infections and selective immunities being prime factors behind tribal wipeouts, SNP bottlenecks and the sudden flourishing of previously sluggish populations like L51.



It sounds speculative to me.
For a start, the earliest found plague genome from central Europe is c. 2200 BC, which is too late for BB, let alone the series of changes which began occurring in the West Black Sea c. 4500 BC. From a palaeo-zoological perspective, it remains to be seen how virulent these organisms were, and if they indeed spread any epidemic. Nor have the imagined immunological advantages been demonstrated or even theorized in any remotely scientific manner (is there a site on L51 which codes for immunity to bacterial pathogens?).
Moreover, the demographic modelling that I am acquantainted with in central Europe is one of marked population growth between 2500 and 2000 BC.

Secondly, and following from the last point, apart from Britain (as it seems), there were no 'tribal wipeouts' in central Europe between 3000 and 2000 BC. The steppe-descended groups which arrived there settled certain regions, whilst populations of other cultural and genetic provenance continued to occupy their niches (eg GAC, late TRB, the Megalithic groups of France, etc, etc). These distinctions abated somewhat after 2200 BC, with the start of the (proper) Bronze Age. We still have a way to go for sampling before we can conclude exactly when and by what means L51 came to be the predominant lineage in western Europe.

ADD: but I do think a scenario like that may have panned out in the Baltic, which prior to CWC -BAx comprised of forager groups

kinman
07-26-2017, 01:10 PM
I agree that it is speculative, but research on this has just begun. And I said nothing about "wipeouts", since these bacteria weren't as virulent as the later ones which were spread by fleas. Even if there weren't widespread deaths, a community with a lot of very sick men would have been more vulnerable to attack.

I expect that more testing could push back the dates to 3700-4000 BC, well before my estimated origin of P312 (3500 BC) [edit: in Moldova or adjacent Ukraine; NOT near the Volga River or perhaps easternmost Ukraine]. If so, the carriers were likely L-51, L-11, and Z2103. Yes, it is very speculative, but such speculation could narrow down where to look for the earlier cases (and I would zero in on the Ukraine in particular).


It sounds speculative to me.
For a start, the earliest found plague genome from central Europe is c. 2200 BC, which is too late for BB, let alone the series of changes which began occurring in the West Black Sea c. 4500 BC. From a palaeo-zoological perspective, it remains to be seen how virulent these organisms were, and if they indeed spread any epidemic. Nor have the imagined immunological advantages been demonstrated or even theorized in any remotely scientific manner (is there a site on L51 which codes for immunity to bacterial pathogens?).
Moreover, the demographic modelling that I am acquantainted with in central Europe is one of marked population growth between 2500 and 2000 BC.

Secondly, and following from the last point, apart from Britain (as it seems), there were no 'tribal wipeouts' in central Europe between 3000 and 2000 BC. The steppe-descended groups which arrived there settled certain regions, whilst populations of other cultural and genetic provenance continued to occupy their niches (eg GAC, late TRB, the Megalithic groups of France, etc, etc). These distinctions abated somewhat after 2200 BC, with the start of the (proper) Bronze Age. We still have a way to go for sampling before we can conclude exactly when and by what means L51 came to be the predominant lineage in western Europe.

ADD: but I do think a scenario like that may have panned out in the Baltic, which prior to CWC -BAx comprised of forager groups

rms2
07-26-2017, 01:46 PM
Could I offer you some advice? I would like to learn something from you, but I'm afraid I just don't find much of what you say that convincing. Perhaps it's the crass, domineering, polemical, slam-dunk style you adopt that makes it harder to follow your chain of reasoning in a measured manner.

I was the first one in this thread to call the content of your posts into question. You don't like that. I understand.



When I say I'm not sufficiently interested (to pay for a more detailed DNA test for myself), you firstly exaggerate my reply by emotionalising it to "if you don't care", then you try to ostracise me from yourself by saying "then you and I have little in common".

When I suggested you test your y-dna with FTDNA, you said you aren't sufficiently interested. I replied that it's your y-dna heritage, if you don't care, then we have little in common.

Perhaps I should have said, "If you don't care enough to test with FTDNA," rather than implying that you don't care at all by saying, "If you don't care."

Your reply about not being sufficiently interested was curt and dismissive. Why should I countenance that?

It's a fact that I don't have a lot in common with people who aren't sufficiently interested in their y-dna heritage to test with FTDNA.



This must just be a tactical ploy, as surely a little slither of dna can't be the defining be-all and end-all of your life, but I'm finding the style of your delivery frustrating, as I feel sure you have a lot more that you could usefully contribute.

I think you dislike the fact that I disagree with you.

I dislike the fact that you tried to separate yourself from your own opinions, as if your opinions were simply the facts that you were presenting in an objective and dispassionate way.



If this advice is unwelcome, please just ignore it!

It's merely a substitute for a competent defense of your ideas, nothing more.

rms2
07-26-2017, 02:01 PM
. . .

I expect that more testing could push back the dates to 3700-4000 BC, well before my estimated origin of P312 (3500 BC) near the Volga River or perhaps easternmost Ukraine . . .

I have nothing against your ideas, so don't get me wrong, but I am wondering what specifically makes you think P312 originated near the Volga River or easternmost Ukraine.

I think P312 could have originated somewhere on the Pontic steppe, but I would not attempt to be as specific as you are trying to be. So, I am just wondering what you are seeing that I am not.

Dewsloth
07-26-2017, 03:00 PM
It sounds speculative to me.
For a start, the earliest found plague genome from central Europe is c. 2200 BC, which is too late for BB, let alone the series of changes which began occurring in the West Black Sea c. 4500 BC. From a palaeo-zoological perspective, it remains to be seen how virulent these organisms were, and if they indeed spread any epidemic. Nor have the imagined immunological advantages been demonstrated or even theorized in any remotely scientific manner (is there a site on L51 which codes for immunity to bacterial pathogens?).
Moreover, the demographic modelling that I am acquantainted with in central Europe is one of marked population growth between 2500 and 2000 BC.

Secondly, and following from the last point, apart from Britain (as it seems), there were no 'tribal wipeouts' in central Europe between 3000 and 2000 BC. The steppe-descended groups which arrived there settled certain regions, whilst populations of other cultural and genetic provenance continued to occupy their niches (eg GAC, late TRB, the Megalithic groups of France, etc, etc). These distinctions abated somewhat after 2200 BC, with the start of the (proper) Bronze Age. We still have a way to go for sampling before we can conclude exactly when and by what means L51 came to be the predominant lineage in western Europe.

ADD: but I do think a scenario like that may have panned out in the Baltic, which prior to CWC -BAx comprised of forager groups

Are there any good sites/papers on European population estimates in that time frame +/- a couple thousand years? Paolo posted some neat ones with dates closer to glaciation, but I'm really curious as to the estimates before/during/after steppe incursion.

kinman
07-26-2017, 04:30 PM
Sorry, I misspoke about the place. My estimated origin for P312 (3500 BC) has long been in Moldova or adjacent Ukraine (before it went either north or south of the Carpathians.

It is actually L51 that I think originated near the Volga River. My reason for that is the Volga River (and on over to easternmost Ukraine) seems to be right in the center of all the action. A likely area from which things spread out in all directions, such as languages (PIE, Uralic, Tocharian, etc.), horse domestication (spreading both west and also east to the Botai and beyond), spread of Yamnaya culture, and a likely area where its ancestors (M269 and L23) also originated.


I have nothing against your ideas, so don't get me wrong, but I am wondering what specifically makes you think P312 originated near the Volga River or easternmost Ukraine.

I think P312 could have originated somewhere on the Pontic steppe, but I would not attempt to be as specific as you are trying to be. So, I am just wondering what you are seeing that I am not.

Net Down G5L
07-26-2017, 06:06 PM
The early plague would have affected both males and females, but it was probably mainly males on horseback who carried the disease westward. This early form of plague bacterium did not yet have the gene to allow them to live in fleas, so it was instead passed from person to person (like influenza).
Here is a quote from a 2015 article on this research (and below that is a weblink to the whole article):
"DNA samples revealed that a group of nomadic herders, the Yamnaya, swept into Europe from the plains of today’s Russia and Ukraine sometime between 5000 and 4800 years ago, bringing their culture and, perhaps, the Proto-Indo-European language with them. But archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen of the University of Gothenberg in Sweden wondered whether they also brought disease—and suggested that researchers test the DNA of Bronze Age humans in Europe and Asia to find out."

Source: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/10/bronze-age-plague-wasnt-spread-fleas

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is more up to date information available.

The Valtueńa et al Dec 2016 pre-print shows Corded and Bell Beaker carried Y Pestis. The authors give two alternative models for the spread of Y Pestis:

The Stone Age Plague: 1000 years of Persistence in Eurasia

bioRxiv preprint first posted online Dec. 15, 2016; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/094243 ( http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/094243.").

We propose two contrasting scenarios to explain the phylogenetic pattern observed in the LNBA Y.
pestis branch:
1. The first scenario assumes that plague was introduced multiple times to Europe from a
common reservoir between 5,000 to 3,000 BP. Here, the bacterium would have been
spread independently from a source, most likely located in Central Eurasia, to Europe at
least four times during a period of over 1,000 years (Figure 1), travelling once to
Lithuania, once to Estonia, and two times to Southern Germany.
2. The second scenario assumes that plague entered Europe once, established a reservoir
within or close to Europe from which plague circulated, and then moved back to Central
Eurasia and the Altai region/East Asia during the Bronze Age (Figure 1). This hypothesis
of persistence mirrors that which has been proposed to explain the presence of plague
in Europe during the notorious second pandemic (Spyrou et al., 2016).
With these few genomes available it is difficult to disentangle the two hypotheses; however,
interpreting our data in the context of what is known from human genetics and archaeological
data can offer some resolution. Ancient human genomic data point to a change in mobility and a
massive expansion of people from the Caspian-Pontic Steppe related to individuals associated
with the ‘Yamnaya’ complex, both to the East and the West starting around 4,800 BP. They
carried a distinct genetic component that first appears in Central Europe in individuals from the
Corded Ware Complex that becomes part of the genetic composition of most subsequent and
all modern day European populations (Allentoft et al., 2015; Haak et al., 2015). It was
furthermore shown that there is a close genetic link between the highly mobile group of
pastoralists associated to the Central Asian ‘Afanasievo Complex’, the pontic steppe ‘Yamnaya’,
and the Central and Eastern European Corded Ware Complex (Allentoft et al., 2015). The first
indication of plague in Europe is found in the Baltic region and coincides with the time of the
arrival of the steppe component (Allentoft et al., 2015). The two Late Neolithic Y. pestis
genomes from the Baltic in this study were reconstructed from individuals associated with the
Corded Ware Complex (Gyvakarai1 and KunilaII). The Baltic Y. pestis genomes are genetically
derived from the strain that was found in the ‘Afanasievo Complex’ from the Altai region,
suggesting that the disease might have spread with steppe pastoralists from Central Eurasia to
Eastern and Central Europe during their massive range expansion. The younger Late Neolithic
Y. pestis genomes from Southern Germany are genetically derived from the Baltic strains and
are found in individuals associated with the Bell Beaker Complex.

epp
07-26-2017, 08:42 PM
I was the first one in this thread to call the content of your posts into question. You don't like that. I understand.
The whole point of me coming onto this forum is to get other people to call my posts into question! I'm here to exchange ideas and information, and hopefully learn something - not to ram any thoughts I may have down strangers' throats.



When I suggested you test your y-dna with FTDNA, you said you aren't sufficiently interested. I replied that it's your y-dna heritage, if you don't care, then we have little in common.

Perhaps I should have said, "If you don't care enough to test with FTDNA," rather than implying that you don't care at all by saying, "If you don't care."

Your reply about not being sufficiently interested was curt and dismissive. Why should I countenance that?

It's a fact that I don't have a lot in common with people who aren't sufficiently interested in their y-dna heritage to test with FTDNA.
That's the entire female sex out of the picture then!
Sorry if you took me to be dismissive. I thought I was saying it in a polite way, unlike some of your replies to my posts calling them "crap" and "bs".
To me, y-dna is mainly interesting from a historical perspective - not because I think a tiny SNP mutation in my own DNA is especially significant.


I dislike the fact that you tried to separate yourself from your own opinions, as if your opinions were simply the facts that you were presenting in an objective and dispassionate way.
Perhaps it's more comforting to be highly opinionated and act like you know everything, but I find the current vogue for everyone having to have an opinion about everything a bit naff.

razyn
07-26-2017, 08:57 PM
There is more up to date information available.

The Valtueńa et al Dec 2016 pre-print shows Corded and Bell Beaker carried Y Pestis. The authors give two alternative models for the spread of Y Pestis:

The Stone Age Plague: 1000 years of Persistence in Eurasia

bioRxiv preprint first posted online Dec. 15, 2016; doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/094243 ( http://dx.doi.org/10.1101/094243.").
...

The younger Late Neolithic Y. pestis genomes from Southern Germany are genetically derived from the Baltic strains and
are found in individuals associated with the Bell Beaker Complex.

One might inquire (or enquire, from some places) which individuals those were. In case their genetics do, or don't, match up some way with those of the Corded Ware samples, who are identified (Gyvakarai1 and KunilaII). They might be female and irrelevant to the P312 topic of this thread; but even so, it would seem logical to include that information for the Bell Beaker samples since they included it for Corded Ware ones.

rms2
07-26-2017, 09:57 PM
. . .


That's the entire female sex out of the picture then!

Good grief. In a y-dna subforum the female sex is "out of the picture". What a shock!



Sorry if you took me to be dismissive. I thought I was saying it in a polite way, unlike some of your replies to my posts calling them "crap" and "bs".

No one said your posts were crap or bs. What was bs was your claiming your opinions were simply the data speaking for themselves.



To me, y-dna is mainly interesting from a historical perspective - not because I think a tiny SNP mutation in my own DNA is especially significant.

If you aren't interested in your own y-dna heritage, that's your problem. My dad doesn't care that much either, neither does my youngest son's dog, Rascal.



Perhaps it's more comforting to be highly opinionated and act like you know everything, but I find the current vogue for everyone having to have an opinion about everything a bit naff.

Baloney. I am highly opinionated. So is everyone else with an opinion. You can't defend yours, so my opinion is "naff".

epp
07-26-2017, 10:11 PM
Having looked at the Olaide study (I think I have the right one), I note a few things:
1. The proportion of "Steppe-related ancestry" in Bell Beaker individuals is greatest in England and the Netherlands, diminishes as you go Eastwards into the Corded Ware zone, and decreases sharply going into Iberia. Perhaps this is indicative of more closely-related Yamna (R1b-Z2103) and NW European (R1b-L51) people, and that the Steppe-related ancestry was brought into the Corded Ware zone more by incoming R1b individuals from the West than already being mainly present in the indigenous R1a population.
2. The sample sizes are quite small, and could easily have missed a minor fledgling late-Neolithic (i.e. slightly earlier than expected) L51 presence in NW Europe, particularly as the sampling in Southern Britain was described as "sparse" and as this is perhaps the most likely location for the earliest incoming R1b.
3. Although Iberian Bell Beaker is predominantly non-R1b, there is still a Steppe-related ancestry presence at one Bell Beaker site there, indicating likely contact between early R1b and Iberian people, and therefore likely exchange of cultural practices?
4. 95% of the identified R1b samples were P312. Does this indicate that only one sub-branch of L51 (P312) adopted Bell Beaker, and that various other L51 branches (e.g. PF7589, CTS6889, A8039, A8051, S1200 and U106) likely separated from P312 before Bell Beaker arose?

rms2
07-26-2017, 11:19 PM
. . .
2. The sample sizes are quite small, and could easily have missed a minor fledgling late-Neolithic (i.e. slightly earlier than expected) L51 presence in NW Europe, particularly as the sampling in Southern Britain was described as "sparse" and as this is perhaps the most likely location for the earliest incoming R1b.
. . .

Surely you jest.

None of the Olalde et al pre-Beaker samples from Iberia or outside Iberia are R1b-L51, yet you posit "a minor fledgling late-Neolithic (i.e. slightly earlier than expected) L51 presence in NW Europe".

Only desperation could lead to such an idea.

Obviously L51 arrived with Bell Beaker and ultimately from the steppe. I am amazed at people sometimes.

MitchellSince1893
07-26-2017, 11:21 PM
Having looked at the Olaide study (I think I have the right one), I note a few things:
1. The proportion of "Steppe-related ancestry" in Bell Beaker individuals is greatest in England and the Netherlands, diminishes as you go Eastwards into the Corded Ware zone, and decreases sharply going into Iberia. Perhaps this is indicative of more closely-related Yamna (R1b-Z2103) and NW European (R1b-L51) people, and that the Steppe-related ancestry was brought into the Corded Ware zone more by incoming R1b individuals from the West than already being mainly present in the indigenous R1a population.
...

Data from Table S4. Hungary Bell Beaker (74.3% and 56.5% Yamnaya) and German Corded ware (70.7% Yamnaya) samples have more than the highest one from England (56.1%). But to your point, England and Netherlands (55.7% Yamnaya) are quite high for their locations.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/58/1f/be/581fbeaeb041b7f00bc55720db6c14e4.png

Gravetto-Danubian
07-26-2017, 11:22 PM
Are there any good sites/papers on European population estimates in that time frame +/- a couple thousand years? Paolo posted some neat ones with dates closer to glaciation, but I'm really curious as to the estimates before/during/after steppe incursion.

There are some overall assessments, eg Muller: Eight million Neolithic Europeans: social demography and social archaeology on the scope of change – from the Near East to Scandinavia

But what is important is the regional patterns, the relative trends, precise chronology and question of continuity - such as the study based on Moravia (Kolar - Population and forest dynamics during the Central European Eneolithic (4500–2000 BC)0 which shows a sharp demise after the LBK followed by growth with CWC period and into BB, before dropping off again with the 4.2 ky event.


I'm collating such data from around Europe to fit with genetic data to propose paths of most likely migration for phenomena such as CWC, BB, etc

Generalissimo
07-26-2017, 11:52 PM
Having looked at the Olaide study (I think I have the right one), I note a few things:
1. The proportion of "Steppe-related ancestry" in Bell Beaker individuals is greatest in England and the Netherlands, diminishes as you go Eastwards into the Corded Ware zone, and decreases sharply going into Iberia. Perhaps this is indicative of more closely-related Yamna (R1b-Z2103) and NW European (R1b-L51) people, and that the Steppe-related ancestry was brought into the Corded Ware zone more by incoming R1b individuals from the West than already being mainly present in the indigenous R1a population.

Hahaha.

The earliest Corded Ware from the Baltic are basically 100% Yamnaya and 100% R1a.

R.Rocca
07-27-2017, 01:52 AM
As "male" items may have a better correlation with Y-haplogroups, the distribution of Bell Beaker's "eastern" arrowhead type may have something to tell us. Not only is their distribution almost entirely within the Central European Corded Ware areas, their morphology is very similar to those of Corded Ware and even the Zlota Culture of southern Poland. The arrowheads for the Low Countries, France and Britain form a different cluster, but they are still much different than the copper Palmela points from Iberia.

Source: Bailly (2014) Discordance des Temps, Concordance de Espaces? Remarques sur les Armatures Fleches en Contexte Campaniforme

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bell_Beaker_East_Arrows.png

MitchellSince1893
07-27-2017, 02:09 AM
As "male" items may have a better correlation with Y-haplogroups, the distribution of Bell Beaker's "eastern" arrowhead type may have something to tell us. Not only is their distribution almost entirely within the Central European Corded Ware areas, their morphology is very similar to those of Corded Ware and even the Zlota Culture of southern Poland. The arrowheads for the Low Countries, France and Britain form a different cluster, but they are still much different than the copper Palmela points from Iberia.

Source: Bailly (2014) Discordance des Temps, Concordance de Espaces? Remarques sur les Armatures Fleches en Contexte Campaniforme



Link to paper https://www.academia.edu/7252687/Discordance_des_temps_concordance_des_espaces_Rema rques_sur_les_armatures_de_fl%C3%A8ches_en_context e_campaniforme._De_larc_jurassien_%C3%A0_listhme_e urop%C3%A9en

That lower Danube river valley south of Csepel Island, Hungary is looking rather barren.

I wonder if the arrow head style of Low Countries, France, and Britain has any connection to L21 e,g. Amesbury Archer and/or ancient DF27?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/61/da/07/61da07869692b5a029003d76b6f38d93.png

R.Rocca
07-27-2017, 12:30 PM
That lower Danube river valley south of Csepel Island, Hungary is looking rather barren.

Which makes sense for what the map shows, since Csepel is the last mile in the movement towards the south east by the fully developed Bell Beaker package (although some BB-like elements are found as far as Romania). However, that is not to say that the heart shaped arrowheads don't appear even further to the east. Recall the Yamnaya/Budzhak Culture burial with similar arrowheads...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Alkaliya_Yamnaya_Burial.png


I wonder if the arrow head style of Low Countries, France, and Britain has any connection to L21 e,g. Amesbury Archer and/or ancient DF27?

Looks likely it could be for both L21 and DF27, but again, the glaring difference is the lack of Palmela points made of copper that were so common in Iberia and SW France. Copper working, which by all counts was also a male occupation was no different in the Bell Beaker East province than Corded Ware. In line with the flint arrow/Palmela point dichotomy, when Bell Beaker daggers from Iberia and Hungary-Csepel were compared, the metallurgic process by which they were created were completely different. The Iberian one was most similar to the pre-BB Iberian Copper Age.

MitchellSince1893
07-27-2017, 06:15 PM
...However, that is not to say that the heart shaped arrowheads don't appear even further to the east. Recall the Yamnaya/Budzhak Culture burial with similar arrowheads...

I've google this, but are you aware of any documents/studies that show the source for these arrowheads further east? I.e. Is there a trail of arrowheads we can follow back in time/location?

Dewsloth
07-27-2017, 06:30 PM
As "male" items may have a better correlation with Y-haplogroups, the distribution of Bell Beaker's "eastern" arrowhead type may have something to tell us. Not only is their distribution almost entirely within the Central European Corded Ware areas, their morphology is very similar to those of Corded Ware and even the Zlota Culture of southern Poland. The arrowheads for the Low Countries, France and Britain form a different cluster, but they are still much different than the copper Palmela points from Iberia.

Source: Bailly (2014) Discordance des Temps, Concordance de Espaces? Remarques sur les Armatures Fleches en Contexte Campaniforme

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bell_Beaker_East_Arrows.png

Looks like they were still using a similar base design in northern Germany (or at least that geographical area) around 1250 BC -- There's a nice color photo of the base of a point sticking out of an arm bone in this article:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

paoloferrari
07-27-2017, 07:17 PM
I've google this, but are you aware of any documents/studies that show the source for these arrowheads further east? I.e. Is there a trail of arrowheads we can follow back in time/location?

FLINT ARTEFACTS OF NORTHERN
PONTIC POPULATIONS
OF THE EARLY AND MIDDLE
BRONZE AGE: 3200 – 1600 BC

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13020/1/BPS-16_S_M_Razumov%20FLINT%20ARTEFACTS%20OF%20NORTHERN %20PONTIC%20POPULATIONS%20OF%20THE%20EARLY%20AND%2 0MIDDLE%20BRONZE%20AGE-3200%20%E2%80%93%201600%20BC.pdf

pag.70 type a subtype i version 1

epp
07-27-2017, 08:36 PM
Surely you jest.

None of the Olalde et al pre-Beaker samples from Iberia or outside Iberia are R1b-L51, yet you posit "a minor fledgling late-Neolithic (i.e. slightly earlier than expected) L51 presence in NW Europe".

Only desperation could lead to such an idea.

Obviously L51 arrived with Bell Beaker and ultimately from the steppe. I am amazed at people sometimes.
If you find this amazing, you need to get out a bit more.

epp
07-27-2017, 08:45 PM
Data from Table S4. Hungary Bell Beaker (74.3% and 56.5% Yamnaya) and German Corded ware (70.7% Yamnaya) samples have more than the highest one from England (56.1%). But to your point, England and Netherlands (55.7% Yamnaya) are quite high for their locations.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/58/1f/be/581fbeaeb041b7f00bc55720db6c14e4.png
Perhaps you're looking at a different study. I was looking at http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf
Figure 2's pie charts show England and Netherlands at about 60% "Steppe-related ancestry" and sites in Germany, Hungary and Poland at about 40-45%.

epp
07-27-2017, 08:49 PM
Hahaha.

The earliest Corded Ware from the Baltic are basically 100% Yamnaya and 100% R1a.
You have very well-developed sense of humour. Or was that supposed to be an evil laugh?

epp
07-27-2017, 08:52 PM
Hahaha.

The earliest Corded Ware from the Baltic are basically 100% Yamnaya and 100% R1a.
That's interesting. I thought all the Yamna samples found were R1b? Or did that change?

epp
07-27-2017, 09:02 PM
Hahaha.

The earliest Corded Ware from the Baltic are basically 100% Yamnaya and 100% R1a.
If Yamna were a mixed R1a/R1b population, how do you think R1b would have somehow been screened out of the pre-Corded Ware migrants to the Baltic? Or don't you think Yamna was a mixed population?

epp
07-27-2017, 09:14 PM
Surely you jest.

None of the Olalde et al pre-Beaker samples from Iberia or outside Iberia are R1b-L51, yet you posit "a minor fledgling late-Neolithic (i.e. slightly earlier than expected) L51 presence in NW Europe".

Only desperation could lead to such an idea.
The study is based on only 25 Neolithic British samples, only one of which was I2. Thank goodness Olaide managed to find that one I2 sample, otherwise everyone might have been adamantly rejecting the possibility that any I2 could have existed in Neolithic Britain at all.

epp
07-27-2017, 09:16 PM
I note that no one's had anything to say in response to my other two points:
3. Although Iberian Bell Beaker is predominantly non-R1b, there is still a Steppe-related ancestry presence at one Bell Beaker site there, indicating likely contact between early R1b and Iberian people, and therefore likely exchange of cultural practices?
4. 95% of the identified R1b samples were P312. Does this indicate that only one sub-branch of L51 (P312) adopted Bell Beaker, and that various other L51 branches (e.g. PF7589, CTS6889, A8039, A8051, S1200 and U106) likely separated from P312 before Bell Beaker arose?

ADW_1981
07-27-2017, 09:52 PM
The study is based on only 25 Neolithic British samples, only one of which was I2. Thank goodness Olaide managed to find that one I2 sample, otherwise everyone might have been adamantly rejecting the possibility that any I2 could have existed in Neolithic Britain at all.

I recall all the British Neolithic samples were I2, and all the Bronze British were R1b, at least from the Olalde pre-print.

epp
07-27-2017, 10:23 PM
I recall all the British Neolithic samples were I2, and all the Bronze British were R1b, at least from the Olalde pre-print.
I think you might be right. The various shades of blue in the chart look very similar, and I'm told I'm partly colour blind.
Perhaps a better example is today's population of Britain - in a sample of 25 people living in Britain (Olaide's Neolithic sample size), on average there would be no Polish people at all (Polish-born people living in Britain make up just over 1% of the population). To follow the logic of some people on this forum, this would mean that Polish people in Britain cannot possibly exist.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-27-2017, 11:39 PM
I recall all the British Neolithic samples were I2, and all the Bronze British were R1b, at least from the Olalde pre-print.

I thought there were a couple of I2a2 in Bronze Age too

Gravetto-Danubian
07-27-2017, 11:49 PM
As "male" items may have a better correlation with Y-haplogroups, the distribution of Bell Beaker's "eastern" arrowhead type may have something to tell us. Not only is their distribution almost entirely within the Central European Corded Ware areas, their morphology is very similar to those of Corded Ware and even the Zlota Culture of southern Poland. The arrowheads for the Low Countries, France and Britain form a different cluster, but they are still much different than the copper Palmela points from Iberia.

Source: Bailly (2014) Discordance des Temps, Concordance de Espaces? Remarques sur les Armatures Fleches en Contexte Campaniforme

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Bell_Beaker_East_Arrows.png

If I understood the paper correctly, it breaks down the armaments into 3 groups

1) eastern: with analogies to CWC, Zlota, and even Baden.

2) western: more difficult to pin-point origins, but suggests northern Italy

3) west Iberian; which instead used Copper Daggers and palmella points.

ADW_1981
07-28-2017, 12:27 AM
I thought there were a couple of I2a2 in Bronze Age too

You're right. I should have phrased it differently. "All of the R1b were Bronze Age British".

GoldenHind
07-28-2017, 05:12 AM
He may be a true P312*. There are no known public subclades that this guy is showing up in at a first pass, other than P312. He is clearly DF19- L238- L21- U152-. DF27 and ZZ12 can be tricky but he is negative for Z195 and negative for everything downstream of ZZ12 that is covered.

To clarify what I think we mean by an asterisk or paragroup is that that a fellow is tested negative for all known public downstream SNPs. Of course, the guy must have private SNPs that his brother (if he has one) or his father or sons would have.

He is a early branch away from P312 or DF27, a kind of a lonely fellow in either case.

This is the origins background information I have.

There are a handful of people from Syunik (Armenia) who are P312+ DF27+ A431/A432/Y3267+ Y7363+, but all other Armenians are above P312 and U106.

A true P312* or DF27* Aremenian would be a new find, which this person appears to be.

A CTS4528+ (which is L51+ L151+ U106- P312-) Armenian has been found too.

Alex W now has this person's Big Y raw data file, so we should know more about him very soon.

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 05:44 AM
FLINT ARTEFACTS OF NORTHERN
PONTIC POPULATIONS
OF THE EARLY AND MIDDLE
BRONZE AGE: 3200 – 1600 BC

https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13020/1/BPS-16_S_M_Razumov%20FLINT%20ARTEFACTS%20OF%20NORTHERN %20PONTIC%20POPULATIONS%20OF%20THE%20EARLY%20AND%2 0MIDDLE%20BRONZE%20AGE-3200%20%E2%80%93%201600%20BC.pdf

pag.70 type a subtype i version 1
Type A subtype 1, version 1.

Type A – arrowheads with a notched base (Fig. 12:1-11; 13:1-6,9,12).
Sub-type I – side edges of the arrowhead form a relatively straight point-tobase
line.
Version 1 – the notch at the base of an arrowhead is curve-like. In total
41 such arrowheads were found in Yamnaya graves with skeletons contracted on
the back; 24 of the arrowheads were located among the bones and could be the
cause of wounds. The graves with skeletons contracted on the side contained 10
arrowheads of this type, including 7 among the bones (one of the arrowheads
covered with a layer of calcium – see above), and one arrowhead was found within
a ‘manufacture kit’. Finally, five arrowheads of A-I-1 were found in cenotaphs and
ruined graves of the YC (one of the arrowheads had been the cause of a wound).
Of the total of 56 arrowheads, 31 were the cause of wounds.



Type A – arrowheads with a notch at the base (Fig. 18-22).
Sub-type I – side edges of the arrowhead form a relatively straight point-tobase
line.
Version 1 – the notch at the base of an arrowhead is curve-like. Such an
arrowhead (Fig. 18:2) was found among the bones arranged as a ‘package’ in
the centre of a chamber of Early Catacomb grave 2 of barrow 14 of the Kruhla
Molyla group (Ordzhonikidze, Dnipropetrovsk Region).
In a grave of the Donets culture, four such arrowheads comprised a ‘quiver
set’ (Fig. 19:34-37), being positioned to the left of the pelvis of an adult buried
contracted on the back (Molyliov, Bryliuvata Mohyla, 1.14, Dnipropetrovsk Region).



F i g . 18. Early Catacomb culture arrowheads. 1 – Mine No 22, Barrow 2, Grave 17 (Dnipropetrovsk
Region) [828], Type A-I-1; ...7 –Novochornomorya Barrow 4, Grave 17 (Kherson Region) [999], Type A-I-1; 8 – Vynohradnyky
Barrow 1, Grave 8 (Donetsk Region) [922], Type A-I-1


F i g . 19...42-44 – Novomykilske Barrow 1, Grave 5 [1100] (Luhansk Region), 40-41 – Type
A-I-1, 42


F i g . 20...53 – Borysivka Barrow 1, Grave 18 (Zaporizhya Region) [1252].
1-41, 43 – Type A-II-3, 42, 44, 46-49, 53 – Type A-II-2, 45, 51-52 – Type A-I-1


F i g . 22...18-47 – Artemivsk Barrow 2, Grave 3 [900], Type A-I-1


F i g . 23...45-46 – Tekstilshchik Barrow 2, Grave 5 (Donetsk) [1379]. 1-6, 9, 14, 15-16,
27-28, 38, 40, 43-44 – Type A-I-1;

Locations above found along Dnieper River and further east
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bf/8e/c4/bf8ec4943a118012748fd2db88ba323b.png

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 05:56 AM
From page 144 https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13020/1/BPS-16_S_M_Razumov%20FLINT%20ARTEFACTS%20OF%20NORTHERN %20PONTIC%20POPULATIONS%20OF%20THE%20EARLY%20AND%2 0MIDDLE%20BRONZE%20AGE-3200%20%E2%80%93%201600%20BC.pdf


Separate attention should be paid to the possible occurrence of imports
and replicas of flint daggers of the Bell Beaker culture of central and northern
Europe in the Northern Pontic area (with the CWC as an intermediary).
Certain ties between eastern groups of the Beaker, Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures
can be traced in ceramics, metal objects and even in burial rites . From this perspective attention should be paid to a dagger
found in the late Yamnaya layer of the Mykhailivka settlement (Kherson
Region). Made of light-grey flint, it has a rather small triangular blade and
a haft, widening to the top [Lahodovska et al. 1962:127]. Having practically
no equivalents among objects found in burial complexes, that artefact, instead,
is [B]similar to daggers that were common for the southern shore of the Baltic
Sea in the second half of 3000 BC (Fig. 68:8-10) [Apel 2001; Czebreszuk,
Kozłowska-Skoczka 2008]. However, given the singularity of that find in the
Northern Pontic area and the above factors (functionality and copying of shapes
of metal objects), its connection with the Bell Beaker culture so far is only
hypothetic.

Taking the Dnieper up to the Pripyat River river would get you close to Eastern Poland

rms2
07-28-2017, 12:56 PM
I note that no one's had anything to say in response to my other two points:
3. Although Iberian Bell Beaker is predominantly non-R1b, there is still a Steppe-related ancestry presence at one Bell Beaker site there, indicating likely contact between early R1b and Iberian people, and therefore likely exchange of cultural practices? . . .

Of all of Olalde et al's Iberian Bell Beaker samples, only two females, I0461 and I4062, had any steppe autosomal dna. They came from the Arroyal I site in Burgos, Spain.

Those two burials are not early Iberian Bell Beaker. The dates for I0461 are 2348-2200 BC, with a midpoint of 2274 BC. I0462's dates are 2465-2211 BC, with a midpoint of 2338 BC. By the time of those burials, non-Iberian, kurgan Bell Beaker had arrived in the Iberian peninsula.

The two females with steppe ancestry were buried in the remodelled, Copper Age portion of the Arroyal I site and not in the earlier, collective Neolithic portion. Here is something on that from page 5 of the Olalde et al Supplementary Information:



The grave was used as a collective burial during 400 years in the Late Neolithic (3300–2900 calBCE). The grave was then abandoned until the Chalcolithic when it was extensively remodelled: Neolithic layers were almost eliminated; the corridor was filled with rocks and sediment; the useful area inside the chamber was reduced when a stone wall was built; and a floor of limestone blocks was built inside the chamber. Several consecutive and isolated burials (9–10) were then introduced. The last one (Roy5) was a young individual buried with a set of 4 vessels (2 Bell Beakers and 2 carinated bowls) and surrounded by the long bones and skulls from previous burials. She represents the earliest observation of steppe-related genetic affinities in the Iberian Peninsula.

rms2
07-28-2017, 01:11 PM
I think you might be right. The various shades of blue in the chart look very similar, and I'm told I'm partly colour blind.

Yes, you were wrong. All of Olalde et al's Neolithic British males were I and I2, and none of them was R1b.




Perhaps a better example is today's population of Britain - in a sample of 25 people living in Britain (Olaide's Neolithic sample size), on average there would be no Polish people at all (Polish-born people living in Britain make up just over 1% of the population). To follow the logic of some people on this forum, this would mean that Polish people in Britain cannot possibly exist.

Not only were Olalde et al's British Neolithic samples not R1b, but none of them had any steppe autosomal dna either, not a single one.

The British Neolithic samples resembled Iberian Neolithic samples.

On the other hand, all of Olalde et al's British Bell Beaker samples and Bronze Age samples had steppe autosomal dna. All but one of the British Bell Beaker samples were R1b. The only exception was I1767, which was I2a2a1a1a. Interestingly, it was also the only one with low steppe dna.

In similar fashion, the Irish Ballynahatty Neolithic woman from Cassidy et al had no steppe dna and was closest to modern Sardinians. The BB skeletons from Rathlin Island, however, were all of them R1b and had substantial steppe dna.

TigerMW
07-28-2017, 02:34 PM
He may be a true P312*. There are no known public subclades that this guy is showing up in at a first pass, other than P312. He is clearly DF19- L238- L21- U152-. DF27 and ZZ12 can be tricky but he is negative for Z195 and negative for everything downstream of ZZ12 that is covered.

To clarify what I think we mean by an asterisk or paragroup is that that a fellow is tested negative for all known public downstream SNPs. Of course, the guy must have private SNPs that his brother (if he has one) or his father or sons would have.

He is a early branch away from P312 or DF27, a kind of a lonely fellow in either case.

This is the origins background information I have.

There are a handful of people from Syunik (Armenia) who are P312+ DF27+ A431/A432/Y3267+ Y7363+, but all other Armenians are above P312 and U106.

A true P312* or DF27* Aremenian would be a new find, which this person appears to be.

A CTS4528+ (which is L51+ L151+ U106- P312-) Armenian has been found too.

Alex W now has this person's Big Y raw data file, so we should know more about him very soon.

He agreed to share his results yesterday so I uploaded his file to the P312 shared file space.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-P312-Project/files/Big_Y_DF19_L238_DF99_P312other_results/

If anyone want to figure it out, here it is.

P312_657355_Aviet_BigY_RawData_20170724.zip

As long as he is not a western/later branch in DF27 I think has significance. If he is truly P312* or DF27* (no public subclades found to the west) I think this is important. Probably could say the same for ZZ12* which is immediately under DF27.

TigerMW
07-28-2017, 03:15 PM
Alex W now has this person's Big Y raw data file, so we should know more about him very soon.

He's not really on a very early branch of P312. Alex has already assessed his positioning on the Big Tree using the VCF raw results.

Looks like Aviet helps identify a new subclade led by 7605936-C-G (under DF27 and ZZ12).

657355 Aviet - Armenia
N123269 Serra - Spain

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2837

Not sure what to make of it. We also have the DF27+ ZZ12+ A431+ in this Armenian community. These are very early divisions under ZZ12. Perhaps we should be looking more at ZZ12. It's spread all over Europe.

It would appear that when the fusion-fission conflicts of Central Europe occurred some of the P312 subclade lineages, like those that led to L21 and Z209 went west but ZZ12 splattered all over.

Webb
07-28-2017, 03:22 PM
He agreed to share his results yesterday so I uploaded his file to the P312 shared file space.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-P312-Project/files/Big_Y_DF19_L238_DF99_P312other_results/

If anyone want to figure it out, here it is.

P312_657355_Aviet_BigY_RawData_20170724.zip

As long as he is not a western/later branch in DF27 I think has significance. If he is truly P312* or DF27* (no public subclades found to the west) I think this is important. Probably could say the same for ZZ12* which is immediately under DF27.

Alex has him under ZZ12. He shares some snps with a Serra from Spain.

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 03:31 PM
From page 144 https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13020/1/BPS-16_S_M_Razumov%20FLINT%20ARTEFACTS%20OF%20NORTHERN %20PONTIC%20POPULATIONS%20OF%20THE%20EARLY%20AND%2 0MIDDLE%20BRONZE%20AGE-3200%20%E2%80%93%201600%20BC.pdf

Taking the Dnieper up to the Pripyat River river would get you close to Eastern Poland

Ideally we would find the missing link between the Lower Dnieper/North of the Sea of Azov arrow head group and the similar style Eastern Bell Beaker arrow head type found in Central Europe as far East as Poland

Map below includes the Type I, Subtype 1, Variance 1 arrowheads of the Yamnaya and the easternmost Bell Beaker locations of similar arrowheads

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9a/16/9b/9a169b004b6ba0296ee31f0b53e0d78f.png

I.e. find similar style arrow heads in the area between these two locations. E.g. Northwest Ukraine (route going north of Carpathians) and/or Lower Danube (route going south along the Danube).

Any body interested in doing some detective work to see if this data is already out there?

epp
07-28-2017, 07:31 PM
Yes, you were wrong. All of Olalde et al's Neolithic British males were I and I2, and none of them was R1b.

Not only were Olalde et al's British Neolithic samples not R1b, but none of them had any steppe autosomal dna either, not a single one.

The British Neolithic samples resembled Iberian Neolithic samples.

On the other hand, all of Olalde et al's British Bell Beaker samples and Bronze Age samples had steppe autosomal dna. All but one of the British Bell Beaker samples were R1b. The only exception was I1767, which was I2a2a1a1a. Interestingly, it was also the only one with low steppe dna.

In similar fashion, the Irish Ballynahatty Neolithic woman from Cassidy et al had no steppe dna and was closest to modern Sardinians. The BB skeletons from Rathlin Island, however, were all of them R1b and had substantial steppe dna.

I misread them as IxI2 (which to me looks the same colour) - not R1b-L51, which even my calculations indicate as most likely based along the Rhine. rather than in Britain.

It's slightly frustrating that all of the Neolithic samples bar one are from Northern Scotland - mostly the Orkneys, which are not even British mainland. The Bell Beaker samples, on the other hand, are all English and Welsh, so not really closely comparable.

I also note there is no G2a in the Neolithic samples. Would this be just because G2a never got as far as the Orkneys, do you think, or did G2a only arrive in Western Europe later too?

Do you have any thoughts on why English, Dutch and French Bell Beaker samples, per the Olaide pie charts, have greater Steppe ancestry proportions than those from Germany, Poland and Hungary?

epp
07-28-2017, 07:38 PM
A related question, I think. Corded Ware origin for U106, Bell Beaker origin for U106, or neither? U106 seems likely to have been in the right areas for both, but also seems largely or completely absent from samples of both. If so, which culture would it have been born into?

Wing Genealogist
07-28-2017, 07:52 PM
A related question, I think. Corded Ware origin for U106, Bell Beaker origin for U106, or neither? U106 seems likely to have been in the right areas for both, but also seems largely or completely absent from samples of both. If so, which culture would it have been born into?

IMHO, it appears U106 may be a late entry into the Corded Ware Culture. However, this is currently based on only a single sample found (to date) at the southern tip of Sweden. Future discoveries hopefully will clear up the picture somewhat.

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 08:02 PM
...that is not to say that the heart shaped arrowheads don't appear even further to the east. Recall the Yamnaya/Budzhak Culture burial with similar arrowheads...

I totally missed this part of your post. Bingo! I think we found our arrowhead trail.

Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya

http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/4_.jpg

rms2
07-28-2017, 08:22 PM
. . .

It's slightly frustrating that all of the Neolithic samples bar one are from Northern Scotland - mostly the Orkneys, which are not even British mainland. The Bell Beaker samples, on the other hand, are all English and Welsh, so not really closely comparable.

Look at the spreadsheet. Several of the Neolithic samples from Olalde et al are from England. I am not going to go through and check all of the Neolithic Scottish samples, but a quick glance showed that quite a number of them were not from Orkney.



I also note there is no G2a in the Neolithic samples. Would this be just because G2a never got as far as the Orkneys, do you think, or did G2a only arrive in Western Europe later too?

G2a predominates in Neolithic samples on the Continent. It may show up in Britain with more testing, but it seems to me farming was spread to Britain from the Continent by I2as rather than by G2as. It may have come via Iberia, since the British Neolithic population resembled the Iberian Neolithic population.



Do you have any thoughts on why English, Dutch and French Bell Beaker samples, per the Olaide pie charts, have greater Steppe ancestry proportions than those from Germany, Poland and Hungary?

There are a couple of BBs from Hungary that have just as much or more steppe dna than the British and Dutch BBs, as I recall. I believe someone, MitchellSince1893, perhaps, has already addressed that.

epp
07-28-2017, 09:00 PM
IMHO, it appears U106 may be a late entry into the Corded Ware Culture. However, this is currently based on only a single sample found (to date) at the southern tip of Sweden. Future discoveries hopefully will clear up the picture somewhat.
I wonder why U106 is not represented in Bell Beaker when it seems to have branched away from P312 only shortly before P312's Bell Beaker expansion - unless P312 at least partly picked up Bell Beaker from elsewhere.

kinman
07-28-2017, 09:20 PM
After going north of the Carpathians, they could have gotten involved in the amber trade which passed through Poland. U106 gets involved in transporting amber from the north, and P312 gets involved in transporting amber to the south (to the Danube River). So P312 would be in the right place to become Bell Beaker, and U106 was in the Corded Ware area. Look at a map of the "Amber Road".


I wonder why U106 is not represented in Bell Beaker when it seems to have branched away from P312 only shortly before P312's Bell Beaker expansion - unless P312 at least partly picked up Bell Beaker from elsewhere.

epp
07-28-2017, 09:33 PM
Look at the spreadsheet. Several of the Neolithic samples from Olalde et al are from England. I am not going to go through and check all of the Neolithic Scottish samples, but a quick glance showed that quite a number of them were not from Orkney.
I hesitate to ask, as you seem impatient, but all I see before 2,500 BC (apart from Eton) is Scottish:
I2657 3952–3781 calBCE (5052±30 BP, SUERC-68701) Macarthur Cave Great Britain
I2633 3766-3642 calBCE (4911±32 BP, SUERC-68634) Tulloch of Assery B Great Britain
I2659 3762–3644 calBCE (4914±27 BP, SUERC-68702) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2691 3701–3640 calBCE (4881±25 BP, SUERC-68704) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2796 3706–3536 calBCE (4856±33 BP, SUERC-69074) Point of Cott, Orkney Great Britain
I2634 3704–3535 calBCE (4851±34 BP, SUERC-68638) Tulach an t'Sionnach Great Britain
I2635 3653–3390 calBCE (4796±37 BP, SUERC-68639) Tulloch of Assery A Great Britain
I2636 3520–3362 calBCE (4651±33 BP, SUERC-68640) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2988 3517–3362 calBCE (4645±29 BP, SUERC-68711) Clachaig Great Britain
I2660 3514–3353 calBCE (4631±29 BP, SUERC-68703) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2650 3500–3360 calBCE (4754±36 BP, SUERC-68642) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2637 3510–3340 calBCE (4697±33 BP, SUERC-68641) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2605 3632–3373 calBCE (4710±35 BP, Poz-83483) Eton Rowing Course Great Britain
I2980 3361–3102 calBCE (4530±33 BP, SUERC-69073) Point of Cott, Orkney Great Britain
I2651 3330–3090 calBCE (4525±36 BP, SUERC-68643) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I3085 3339–3027 calBCE (4471±29 BP, SUERC-68724) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2978 3336–3024 calBCE (4464±29 BP, SUERC-68725) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2934 3327–3036 calBCE (4466±33 BP, SUERC-69071) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2935 3336–3012 calBCE (4451±29 BP, SUERC-68723) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2979 3334–2942 calBCE (4447±29 BP, SUERC-68726) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2631 3098–2907 calBCE (4384±36 BP, SUERC-68633) Quoyness Great Britain
I2933 3011–2886 calBCE (4309±29 BP, SUERC-68722) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2977 3009–2764 calBCE (4275±33 BP, SUERC-69072) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2630 2581–2464 calBCE (3999±32 BP, SUERC-68632) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2932 2571–2348 calBCE (3962±29 BP, SUERC-68721) Isbister, Orkney
Where are the English samples?
[/QUOTE]


G2a predominates in Neolithic samples on the Continent. It may show up in Britain with more testing,
By the same token, we might find that some R1b or other Steppe DNA also shows up with more testing.


There are a couple of BBs from Hungary that have just as much or more steppe dna than the British and Dutch BBs, as I recall. I believe someone, MitchellSince1893, perhaps, has already addressed that.
Yes, but why focus on the couple of BBs from Hungary that have more Steppe DNA, and just ignore the bulk of the German, Polish and Hungarian samples that have less Steppe DNA than in Britain, Holland or France? Why would this be the case?

kinman
07-28-2017, 09:35 PM
Excellent!!! I wonder if there are any such arrow heads to the east of Ukraine (such as the Volga River area)?


I totally missed this part of your post. Bingo! I think we found our arrowhead trail.

Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya

http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/4_.jpg

epp
07-28-2017, 09:42 PM
After going north of the Carpathians, they could have gotten involved in the amber trade which passed through Poland. U106 gets involved in transporting amber from the north, and P312 gets involved in transporting amber to the south (to the Danube River). So P312 would be in the right place to become Bell Beaker, and U106 was in the Corded Ware area. Look at a map of the "Amber Road".
OK. Would this suggest that U106 lost traces of formative Bell Beaker culture as it went North into Corded Ware territory, or that Bell Beaker only developed within P312 as it was exposed to elements of Bell Beaker culture within other European populations?

kinman
07-28-2017, 09:46 PM
The original Amber Road back then wouldn't have been as long. It may have started at Kalingrad in the north, and perhaps didn't yet reach Italy in the south. But it does hit the Danube between Vienna and Bratislava where U152 may have been born. Here's a pretty good map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Amber_Road.jpg/1200px-Amber_Road.jpg


After going north of the Carpathians, they could have gotten involved in the amber trade which passed through Poland. U106 gets involved in transporting amber from the north, and P312 gets involved in transporting amber to the south (to the Danube River). So P312 would be in the right place to become Bell Beaker, and U106 was in the Corded Ware area. Look at a map of the "Amber Road".

epp
07-28-2017, 09:48 PM
I totally missed this part of your post. Bingo! I think we found our arrowhead trail.

Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya

http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-content/uploads/4_.jpg
I note that this map shows the Yamna culture extending some way beyond the Steppe - in fact, off the left hand side of the page into Hungary. How accurate is the distribution identified here?

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 09:54 PM
Look at the spreadsheet. Several of the Neolithic samples from Olalde et al are from England. I am not going to go through and check all of the Neolithic Scottish samples, but a quick glance showed that quite a number of them were not from Orkney.



G2a predominates in Neolithic samples on the Continent. It may show up in Britain with more testing, but it seems to me farming was spread to Britain from the Continent by I2as rather than by G2as. It may have come via Iberia, since the British Neolithic population resembled the Iberian Neolithic population.



There are a couple of BBs from Hungary that have just as much or more steppe dna than the British and Dutch BBs, as I recall. I believe someone, MitchellSince1893, perhaps, has already addressed that.
Yes table s4 of Olalde paper has Hungarian and German samples with 15 to 20% more Yamnaya dna than the highest ones from England and Netherlands. See post 763 in this thread.

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 09:58 PM
I note that this map shows the Yamna culture extending some way beyond the Steppe - in fact, off the left hand side of the page into Hungary. How accurate is the distribution identified here?Kurgans are found going up the Danube River Valley.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3000GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddessFig10-32.jpg
The Danube route has been the more popular theory, but recent papers have not found ancient P312 dna in the lower Danube. Plus funnel beaker TRB and globular amphora GAC like dna was found is some of the Bell Beaker samples in Olalde paper, so folks have been looking at alternatives such as a north of Carpathians route which would take them through TRB and GAC territory

epp
07-28-2017, 10:07 PM
Yes table s4 of Olalde paper has Hungarian and German samples with 15 to 20% more Yamnaya dna than the highest ones from England and Netherlands. See post 763 in this thread.
Not the Olaide paper that I'm looking at http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf, as far as I can see.
This has pie charts in Figure 2 which show the opposite. There are two Hungarian samples with high Steppe-related DNA. All the other Eastern and Central European samples show less Steppe-related DNA than those from Britain, Netherlands and France.

epp
07-28-2017, 10:11 PM
Kurgans are found going up the Danube River Valley.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3000GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddessFig10-32.jpg
The Danube route has been the more popular theory, but recent papers have
not found P312 in the lower danube
Exactly. Could this be because P312 only developed after Yamna had passed through the lower Danube into at least Central Europe?

kinman
07-28-2017, 10:15 PM
I think many those Kurgan graves in the lower Danube River Valley will probably be R1b-Z2103. I am no longer expecting P312.

P.S. If P312 was transporting amber down the Danube from Bratislava (to trade with their Z2103 relatives), I suppose it is possible that some P312 could have died in that area of the Danube. However, probably unlikely that they would have been important enough to have been buried in a Kurgan grave.


Kurgans are found going up the Danube River Valley.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3000GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddessFig10-32.jpg
The Danube route has been the more popular theory, but recent papers have
not found P312 in the lower danube

R.Rocca
07-28-2017, 10:30 PM
Not the Olaide paper that I'm looking at http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf, as far as I can see.
This has pie charts in Figure 2 which show the opposite. There are two Hungarian samples with high Steppe-related DNA. All the other Eastern and Central European samples show less Steppe-related DNA than those from Britain, Netherlands and France.

The oldest P312+U152+ sample to date (RISE563 from Germany) has as much steppe DNA as any of the British or Netherlands samples. You can see it clearly in Olalde's thesis. The slightly higher steppe ancestry to the west was mentioned before you brought it up, and it could be as simple as the Dutch samples coming from deeper into prior Corded Ware territories. The Brits obviously came from there, so that explains that. Danubian German and Hungarian Bell Beaker samples had populations high in EEF just to their south, which could explain who they were mixing with and why they had slightly lower steppe ancestry. Poland... well the dates seem to come from a lab that consistently gave older dates than any other lab for similarly tested areas. For a good summary on the issues, see Wlodarczak 2009. Radiocarbon and Dendrochronological Dates of the Corded Ware Culture. Poland is likely the last area to adopt Bell Beaker, so it could just be again, a matter of more generations of admixing with Neolithic women. It is the areas way outside the former Corded Ware territories (Iberia, Italy) that steppe ancestry really starts to plummet.

epp
07-28-2017, 10:34 PM
I think many those Kurgan graves in the lower Danube River Valley will probably be R1b-Z2103. I am no longer expecting P312.
That would be my guess. Do we know the subclades (if any) of the Yamnayan Z2013? I would be interested to learn whether they were specifically Z2109+

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 10:39 PM
Not the Olaide paper that I'm looking at http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf, as far as I can see.
This has pie charts in Figure 2 which show the opposite. There are two Hungarian samples with high Steppe-related DNA. All the other Eastern and Central European samples show less Steppe-related DNA than those from Britain, Netherlands and France.

Did you look in table S4? Page 85. http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135962.DC1/135962-1.pdf

epp
07-28-2017, 10:53 PM
The oldest P312+U152+ sample to date (RISE563 from Germany) has as much steppe DNA as any of the British or Netherlands samples. You can see it clearly in Olalde's thesis. The slightly higher steppe ancestry to the west was mentioned before you brought it up, and it could be as simple as the Dutch samples coming from deeper into prior Corded Ware territories. The Brits obviously came from there, so that explains that. Danubian German and Hungarian Bell Beaker samples had populations high in EEF just to their south, which could explain who they were mixing with and why they had slightly lower steppe ancestry. Poland... well the dates seem to come from a lab that consistently gave older dates than any other lab for similarly tested areas. For a good summary on the issues, see Wlodarczak 2009. Radiocarbon and Dendrochronological Dates of the Corded Ware Culture. Poland is likely the last area to adopt Bell Beaker, so it could just be again, a matter of more generations of admixing with Neolithic women. It is the areas way outside the former Corded Ware territories (Iberia, Italy) that steppe ancestry really starts to plummet.
Yes, although the North German Bell Beaker samples also show less than 50% Steppe-related DNA. Perhaps the pre-Bell Beaker P312 was based in the areas where Steppe DNA was highest (France to Holland) and its Steppe DNA was diluted over time as it expanded in the East with Bell Beaker, primarily with U152 - the earliest RISE563 sample being similar to its Western ancestors, the later samples having lost Steppe-DNA proportion as they had begun to mix with EEF populations.

epp
07-28-2017, 10:57 PM
Did you look in table S4?
I don't think it's the one I'm looking at, as this doesn't seem to have a table S4. I can only see Figures 1-5 and Tables 1 and 2.

R.Rocca
07-28-2017, 10:58 PM
Yes, although the North German Bell Beaker samples also show less than 50% Steppe-related DNA. Perhaps the pre-Bell Beaker P312 was based in the areas where Steppe DNA was highest (France to Holland) and its Steppe DNA was diluted over time as it expanded in the East with Bell Beaker, primarily with U152 - the earliest RISE563 sample being similar to its Western ancestors, the later samples having lost Steppe-DNA proportion as they had begun to mix with EEF populations.

And the P312+DF27+ sample from Northern Germany... also had as much steppe ancestry as a the British samples. Also, there is no way France had higher steppe DNA than Germany did during the Corded Ware period which is before Bell Beaker.

Joe B
07-28-2017, 11:26 PM
That would be my guess. Do we know the subclades (if any) of the Yamnayan Z2013? I would be interested to learn whether they were specifically Z2109+
Most of the Z2103+ samples have been identified as KMS75 which is well downstream to Z2109.
Many are phylogenetically charted here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background).

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 11:26 PM
I don't think it's the one I'm looking at, as this doesn't seem to have a table S4. I can only see Figures 1-5 and Tables 1 and 2.
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...1/135962-1.pdf
Page 85.

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2017, 11:34 PM
I totally missed this part of your post. Bingo! I think we found our arrowhead trail.

Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya


Just to visually tie the Budzhak region with arrow heads similar to the groups to the east and northwest mentioned earlier.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/89/cf/72/89cf728e0ec572864b4f9dddcc1cf09f.png

As I've said previously the Budzhak region appears to have a lot of SNP diversity (good representation major branches) in present day FTDNA U152 samples. It may just be a coincidence.

GoldenHind
07-29-2017, 12:02 AM
Alex has him under ZZ12. He shares some snps with a Serra from Spain.

It seems odd that the only two people in his subgroup come from opposite ends of Europe- Armenia and Spain- even in the ubiquitous DF27 subclade. However I have been in touch with him and he confirms his YDNA line is Armenian.

Wing Genealogist
07-29-2017, 12:13 AM
I wonder why U106 is not represented in Bell Beaker when it seems to have branched away from P312 only shortly before P312's Bell Beaker expansion - unless P312 at least partly picked up Bell Beaker from elsewhere.

U106 and P312 appear to have formed within one hundred years or so of each other, so you would think they would likely come from the same culture. However, there appears to have been some sort of population bottleneck (at least within U106) as all of the subclades of U106 (with the exception of Z381) appear to have barely survived, with only a single lineage surviving for each clade spanning what appears to be several hundred years.

The success of Z381 may be related to a migration it participated in (as an earlier paper discussed how a successful migration creates a "wave" effect in propagating a haplogroup). The rest of U106 was a very small population "hiding" somewhere and very hard to discover. It is interesting to note that the earliest U106+ individual (RISE98 of the Swedish Battle Axe Culture) was Z381-.

rms2
07-29-2017, 12:21 AM
I hesitate to ask, as you seem impatient, but all I see before 2,500 BC (apart from Eton) is Scottish:
I2657 3952–3781 calBCE (5052±30 BP, SUERC-68701) Macarthur Cave Great Britain
I2633 3766-3642 calBCE (4911±32 BP, SUERC-68634) Tulloch of Assery B Great Britain
I2659 3762–3644 calBCE (4914±27 BP, SUERC-68702) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2691 3701–3640 calBCE (4881±25 BP, SUERC-68704) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2796 3706–3536 calBCE (4856±33 BP, SUERC-69074) Point of Cott, Orkney Great Britain
I2634 3704–3535 calBCE (4851±34 BP, SUERC-68638) Tulach an t'Sionnach Great Britain
I2635 3653–3390 calBCE (4796±37 BP, SUERC-68639) Tulloch of Assery A Great Britain
I2636 3520–3362 calBCE (4651±33 BP, SUERC-68640) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2988 3517–3362 calBCE (4645±29 BP, SUERC-68711) Clachaig Great Britain
I2660 3514–3353 calBCE (4631±29 BP, SUERC-68703) Distillery Cave Great Britain
I2650 3500–3360 calBCE (4754±36 BP, SUERC-68642) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2637 3510–3340 calBCE (4697±33 BP, SUERC-68641) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I2605 3632–3373 calBCE (4710±35 BP, Poz-83483) Eton Rowing Course Great Britain
I2980 3361–3102 calBCE (4530±33 BP, SUERC-69073) Point of Cott, Orkney Great Britain
I2651 3330–3090 calBCE (4525±36 BP, SUERC-68643) Holm of Papa Westray North Great Britain
I3085 3339–3027 calBCE (4471±29 BP, SUERC-68724) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2978 3336–3024 calBCE (4464±29 BP, SUERC-68725) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2934 3327–3036 calBCE (4466±33 BP, SUERC-69071) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2935 3336–3012 calBCE (4451±29 BP, SUERC-68723) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2979 3334–2942 calBCE (4447±29 BP, SUERC-68726) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2631 3098–2907 calBCE (4384±36 BP, SUERC-68633) Quoyness Great Britain
I2933 3011–2886 calBCE (4309±29 BP, SUERC-68722) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2977 3009–2764 calBCE (4275±33 BP, SUERC-69072) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2630 2581–2464 calBCE (3999±32 BP, SUERC-68632) Isbister, Orkney Great Britain
I2932 2571–2348 calBCE (3962±29 BP, SUERC-68721) Isbister, Orkney
Where are the English samples?


I3049, I0518, I0519, and I0520. All England_Neolithic.



By the same token, we might find that some R1b or other Steppe DNA also shows up with more testing.

Different token. The difference is there is plenty of G2a in Neolithic continental Europe and no R1b-L51 in Neolithic continental Europe. So, no, it is not likely we are going to find R1b in Neolithic Britain with more testing.

Do you really expect R1b and steppe dna to show up in Neolithic Britain before the advent of Bell Beaker?

What culture would have brought it there?



Yes, but why focus on the couple of BBs from Hungary that have more Steppe DNA, and just ignore the bulk of the German, Polish and Hungarian samples that have less Steppe DNA than in Britain, Holland or France? Why would this be the case?

Who's ignoring anything? Is the difference so enormous that it is really significant?

The significant difference in steppe dna that matters was noted by Olalde et al themselves on page 66 of the Supplementary Info:



Overall, Y-chromosome haplogroups are highly correlated with steppe ancestry proportions in the nuclear genome . . .

Six individuals outside Iberia without R1b Y-chromosomes were excavated in Hungary (n=4), Germany (n=1) and England (n=1). Interestingly, most of these individuals presented low amounts of steppe ancestry in the nuclear genome as compared to other individuals from the same regions (Figure S1).

Here are the six non-R1b BBs outside Iberia:

1. E09538 Y-DNA: G2a 2471–2300 calBCE Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg, Germany) Low steppe dna (BB_Germany_BAV)
2. I1767 Y-DNA: I2a 2200–1970 calBCE Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, England) Low steppe dna (BB_England_NOR)
3. I2364 Y-DNA: H2 2470–2060 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Bud1)
4. I2741 Y-DNA: I2a 2458–2154 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB-Hungary_Szi1)
5. I2786 Y-DNA: I2a 2459–2206 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Normal BB steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Szi2)
6. I3528 Y-DNA: G2a 2559–2301 calBCE Budakalász, Csajerszke (M0 Site 12) (Hungary) Low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_HUN)

Only one of the non-R1b Bell Beaker samples had normal steppe dna for Bell Beaker: #5 above, an I2a from Hungary.

rms2
07-29-2017, 12:42 AM
Kurgans are found going up the Danube River Valley.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_Archeology/Gimbutas/GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddess/BC3000GimbutasCivilizationOfTheGoddessFig10-32.jpg
The Danube route has been the more popular theory, but recent papers have not found ancient P312 dna in the lower Danube.

You might want to add that they have not looked either. We have no y-dna from any of the literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin. We also do not have any Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe. So, we have not tested the very Yamnaya populations that actually went west.

They could be wrong, but both Gimbutas and Heyd derive Bell Beaker from Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin. I don't think their opinions should be lightly dismissed.

Gimbutas said Bell Beaker was an amalgam of Vucedol and Yamnaya, and now we have Z2103 in both Csepel Bell Beaker and in Vucedol. That could be a clue that she was right and that P312 may yet be found in Yamnaya.



Plus funnel beaker TRB and globular amphora GAC like dna was found is some of the Bell Beaker samples in Olalde paper, so folks have been looking at alternatives such as a north of Carpathians route which would take them through TRB and GAC territory

That is one of the better reasons to think Bell Beaker and R1b-P312 might have stemmed from Corded Ware, especially perhaps Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker.

The problem right now is that Corded Ware has been pretty monolithically R1a. We don't have any R1a in Bell Beaker thus far.

rms2
07-29-2017, 12:56 AM
I think many those Kurgan graves in the lower Danube River Valley will probably be R1b-Z2103. I am no longer expecting P312.

There are literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin and not a single male skeleton from any of them has been tested for y-dna yet. None of the male Yamnaya skeletons from the kurgans on the Pontic steppe has been tested for y-dna yet either.

Meanwhile, Gimbutas and Heyd both derived Bell Beaker from Yamnaya, and Bell Beaker has been producing R1b-L23 results just as eastern Yamnaya has produced R1b-L23 results. The difference thus far has been that most of the eastern Yamnaya results have belonged to L51's brother clade under L23, Z2103, while Bell Beaker has produced mostly L51 but also at least one Z2103 result, as well. If Gimbutas and Heyd are right, the missing link is all those Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin, lying there chock full of untested male skeletons.

Thus far Corded Ware has been pretty solidly R1a, which, while related to R1b, is much farther away from R1b-L51 than R1b-Z2103 is.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-29-2017, 12:58 AM
You might want to add that they have not looked either. We have no y-dna from any of the literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin. We also do not have any Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe. So, we have not tested the very Yamnaya populations that actually went west.

They could be wrong, but both Gimbutas and Heyd derive Bell Beaker from Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin. I don't think their opinions should be lightly dismissed.

Gimbutas said Bell Beaker was an amalgam of Vucedol and Yamnaya, and now we have Z2103 in both Csepel Bell Beaker and in Vucedol. That could be a clue that she was right and that P312 may yet be found in Yamnaya.



That is one of the better reasons to think Bell Beaker and R1b-P312 might have stemmed from Corded Ware, especially perhaps Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker.

The problem right now is that Corded Ware has been pretty monolithically R1a. We don't have any R1a in Bell Beaker thus far.

I can't recall Heyd deriving BB from Yamnaya explicitly, although drawing on its analogies, he still seems attached to the "from West idea".

rms2
07-29-2017, 01:05 AM
I can't recall Heyd deriving BB from Yamnaya explicitly, although drawing on its analogies, he still seems attached to the "from West idea".

I would have to hunt up her post, but awhile back Jean M posted some of Heyd's remarks from a lecture she attended in which he said he believes Bell Beaker stemmed from Yamnaya.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-29-2017, 01:12 AM
I would have to hunt up her post, but awhile back Jean M posted some of Heyd's remarks from a lecture she attended in which he said he believes Bell Beaker stemmed from Yamnaya.

I don't think he ever makes such a notion. But I'll double check

rms2
07-29-2017, 01:58 AM
Here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=200566&viewfull=1#post200566) is the post I had in mind in which Jean reported on Heyd's remarks.



Reporting back on the lecture on Bell Beaker by Volker Heyd this evening in Dorchester. The expected two aDNA papers on Bell Beaker have been delayed for the best possible reason. The two teams, one from Harvard and the other from Copenhagen, have agreed to amalgamate their results into one huge paper, which will give the results of over 200 samples. It is due to be published in a couple of months. Until then all the results are embargoed. Volker Heyd would only say that they are exciting.

He would also prefer me not to divulge everything he said at the lecture on the archaeological side, since he has a paper coming out in the March issue of Antiquity on Bell Beaker; while in the same issue will be one by Kristiansen on Corded Ware. So I'll be brief. He went through the various theories of the origins of Bell Beaker: the Dutch model prevalent until the 1990s, the change wrought by the Muller and Van Willigen radiocarbon date compilation of 2001 and subsequent publications of early dates in Iberia, the various attempts to make sense of an Iberian origin. The problem of the latter and of the idea of a North African origin are the same in his view. There is no prior usage of cord in pottery decoration of either. So he sticks by the Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture proposed in Harrison and Heyd 2007. The icing on the cake lies in two significant new discoveries, which are not entirely published as yet.

rms2
07-29-2017, 02:05 AM
. . . So he sticks by the Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture proposed in Harrison and Heyd 2007 . . .

Of course, perhaps that Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture was Budzhak.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-29-2017, 03:38 AM
Of course, perhaps that Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture was Budzhak.

Budhzak isnt before Yamnaya, it is a regional variant, or according to some, a separate entity (which would mean there is no Yamnaya culture west of the Dnieper). Whatever the case, we now have Heyds corresponding paper so dont have to rely on a second hand account, despite its utmost reliability. We would all like to see that individual in a Kurgan like burial from SW Iberia tested, which might show and early, low level immigration to iberia.

But what I was asking for is where Heyd links a movement from Hungary to BB, as per Gimbutas.
What I did find was this (which we've probably seen before):

"It was perhaps shortly after 2600 bc when the ideas, expression, values, and ideology behind the Bell Beaker seemingly altered, and an expansionistic drive— almost missionary in its appearance—became the dominant element. is is the moment when the rst Bell Beaker vessels, and the people regarding them as their common symbol, were bypassing the Pyrenees along the Atlantic and Mediterranean coastline, reaching for example the mouth of the Rhône in southern France or Brittany in the north-west, perhaps during the later twenty-sixth century bc. From now on, the phenomenon accelerates dramat- ically, with more people being involved, and seizing the opportunity to promote themselves by adopting the now well-defined assemblage of objects, and with the community of Beaker users growing. At the same time, around 2500 bC.."


(Emphasis on seizing)

MitchellSince1893
07-29-2017, 04:12 AM
To date, almost 500 Eneolithic and Early Bronze barrows have been excavated in the North-Western Pontic Region; over 2600 burials of the Budzhak culture have
been found
https://repozytorium.amu.edu.pl/bitstream/10593/13220/1/BPS-18-5_S_Ivanova%20CONNECTIONS%20BEWTEEN%20THE%20BUDZHA K%20CULTURE%20AND%20CENTRAL%20EUROPEAN%20GROUPS%20 OF%20THE%20CORDED%20WARE%20CULTURE%20PP_86-120.pdf

I hope some of these are being sent for dna testing.

In regards to Danube route vs N of Carpathian route (from hyperlink above)


...the way along the Danube or the Carpathian hollow was not the only one used in the relations between the Budzhak and the Corded Ware cultures. We may also speak about the movement towards the west (north-west). The amphorae, comparable to the Corded Ware samples, found in the north of the Republic of Moldova, marked the westward direction of the contacts along the Prut and the Dniester. The researchers pointed out to the Dniester way [Klochko, Kośko 2009: 300], which, most probably, linked the Budzhak culture and the Corded Ware culture. A*burial found on the San River combined the features of the Corded Ware, Yamnaya and Catacomb cultures [Kośko, Klochko, Olszewski 2012].

San River location
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bf/df/a5/bfdfa5eee8b7af94bef94e6637a76ada.png

So the above implies the Budzhak culture apparently had links to CW via both routes, but the authors also believe

Probably, the Budzhak population migrated westwards to central Europe across Malopolska (area of SE Poland above Slovakia) and northern slopes of the Carpathians. The evidence of such connections could be found in the presence of Yamnaya graves in the central European area (Fig. 15), as well as in the similarity of individual shapes of pottery and ornamental motifs (Fig. 11, 12, 18-20).

epp
07-29-2017, 08:50 AM
And the P312+DF27+ sample from Northern Germany... also had as much steppe ancestry as a the British samples. Also, there is no way France had higher steppe DNA than Germany did during the Corded Ware period which is before Bell Beaker.
Agreed, although German Corded Ware seems predominantly R1a, which might explain the higher Steppe DNA than both French and German R1b-L51.

epp
07-29-2017, 08:51 AM
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...1/135962-1.pdf
Page 85.
Unfortunately, for this website address, it said 'Page not found'.

epp
07-29-2017, 08:57 AM
U106 and P312 appear to have formed within one hundred years or so of each other, so you would think they would likely come from the same culture. However, there appears to have been some sort of population bottleneck (at least within U106) as all of the subclades of U106 (with the exception of Z381) appear to have barely survived, with only a single lineage surviving for each clade spanning what appears to be several hundred years.

The success of Z381 may be related to a migration it participated in (as an earlier paper discussed how a successful migration creates a "wave" effect in propagating a haplogroup). The rest of U106 was a very small population "hiding" somewhere and very hard to discover. It is interesting to note that the earliest U106+ individual (RISE98 of the Swedish Battle Axe Culture) was Z381-.
My estimates for U106, as with P312, suggest a start point around the Lower Rhine; and that there were three early branches - the one at the Lower Rhine and the one moving up towards Denmark and Sweden shrivelling, and the more successful branch migrating Eastwards along the Baltic approximately as Corded Ware was coming to an end.

epp
07-29-2017, 09:19 AM
I3049, I0518, I0519, and I0520. All England_Neolithic.
We must be looking at different Olaide studies. None of these samples are on the one I'm looking at.


Different token. The difference is there is plenty of G2a in Neolithic continental Europe and no R1b-L51 in Neolithic continental Europe. So, no, it is not likely we are going to find R1b in Neolithic Britain with more testing.
There is no R1b -L51 in Neolithic anywhere. That doesn't mean we are not going to find it anywhere.


Do you really expect R1b and steppe dna to show up in Neolithic Britain before the advent of Bell Beaker?
No, not particularly.


What culture would have brought it there?
It's really people who bring culture, rather than the other way round. It's possible that early L51 was a fringe population and culturally eclectic.


Who's ignoring anything? Is the difference so enormous that it is really significant?
You selectively mentioned the only two samples that have more Steppe DNA and did not mention the much larger number of samples that have less Steppe DNA. The difference isn't enormous, but is significant.



Here are the six non-R1b BBs outside Iberia:

1. E09538 Y-DNA: G2a 2471–2300 calBCE Unterer Talweg 58-62 (Augsburg, Germany) Low steppe dna (BB_Germany_BAV)
2. I1767 Y-DNA: I2a 2200–1970 calBCE Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham, England) Low steppe dna (BB_England_NOR)
3. I2364 Y-DNA: H2 2470–2060 calBCE Budapest-Békásmegyer, Királyok útja (former Vöröshadsereg útja) (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Bud1)
4. I2741 Y-DNA: I2a 2458–2154 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Very low steppe dna (BB-Hungary_Szi1)
5. I2786 Y-DNA: I2a 2459–2206 calBCE Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő (Hungary) Normal BB steppe dna (BB_Hungary_Szi2)
6. I3528 Y-DNA: G2a 2559–2301 calBCE Budakalász, Csajerszke (M0 Site 12) (Hungary) Low steppe dna (BB_Hungary_HUN)

Only one of the non-R1b Bell Beaker samples had normal steppe dna for Bell Beaker: #5 above, an I2a from Hungary.
This is interesting, as it indicates that R1b Bell Beaker likely did not breed significantly with non-R1b Bell Beaker (the non-R1b samples hardly have any Steppe DNA), but nevertheless R1b Bell Beaker still had an average of only 50% Steppe DNA.

epp
07-29-2017, 09:23 AM
There are literally thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin and not a single male skeleton from any of them has been tested for y-dna yet. None of the male Yamnaya skeletons from the kurgans on the Pontic steppe has been tested for y-dna yet either.

Meanwhile, Gimbutas and Heyd both derived Bell Beaker from Yamnaya, and Bell Beaker has been producing R1b-L23 results just as eastern Yamnaya has produced R1b-L23 results. The difference thus far has been that most of the eastern Yamnaya results have belonged to L51's brother clade under L23, Z2103, while Bell Beaker has produced mostly L51 but also at least one Z2103 result, as well. If Gimbutas and Heyd are right, the missing link is all those Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin, lying there chock full of untested male skeletons.

Thus far Corded Ware has been pretty solidly R1a, which, while related to R1b, is much farther away from R1b-L51 than R1b-Z2103 is.
Yes, I think Carpathians are more plausible immediate ancestors of L51 than Steppe or Corded Ware populations.

epp
07-29-2017, 09:36 AM
Most of the Z2103+ samples have been identified as KMS75 which is well downstream to Z2109.
Many are phylogenetically charted here (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-basal-subclades/about/background).
This is very interesting, as it seems to identify Yamnayan populations as only one branch of Z2103. The greatest diversity in Z2103 is in Anatolia, which might explain why what is called Yamnayan "Steppe DNA" is actually a mix of indigenous Russian and Near Eastern autosomal DNA.
Might I propose what my analysis of FTDNA data suggests - that surviving R1b-L23 is most likely Balkan in origin, that (i) one branch of it L51 headed West, and (ii) the other branch Z2103 headed South East to Northern Anatolia from where some of it later migrated via Georgia/the Black Sea to the Steppe, mixing with indigenous R1a and R1b-M73 to form Yamna which then spread into Corded Ware.

Generalissimo
07-29-2017, 11:28 AM
This is very interesting, as it seems to identify Yamnayan populations as only one branch of Z2103. The greatest diversity in Z2103 is in Anatolia, which might explain why what is called Yamnayan "Steppe DNA" is actually a mix of indigenous Russian and Near Eastern autosomal DNA.
Might I propose what my analysis of FTDNA data suggests - that surviving R1b-L23 is most likely Balkan in origin, that (i) one branch of it L51 headed West, and (ii) the other branch Z2103 headed South East to Northern Anatolia from where some of it later migrated via Georgia/the Black Sea to the Steppe, mixing with indigenous R1a and R1b-M73 to form Yamna which then spread into Corded Ware.

There's no R1b in any of the ancient Anatolian samples.

The first Near Eastern R1b shows up in Bronze Age Armenia, and the first Z2103 in Iron Age Iran, in a sample with Steppe admixture.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-29-2017, 11:37 AM
There's no R1b in any of the ancient Anatolian samples.

The first Near Eastern R1b shows up in Bronze Age Armenia, and the first Z2103 in Iron Age Iran, in a sample with Steppe admixture.

There are only a couple Copper -BA age anatolian Y -samples, beyond the Neolithic.
So Epp's suggestion isn't quite falsified

R.Rocca
07-29-2017, 11:56 AM
You selectively mentioned the only two samples that have more Steppe DNA and did not mention the much larger number of samples that have less Steppe DNA. The difference isn't enormous, but is significant.

The area of Csepel is a small strip of land on the Danube with a mess of Copper Age Culture all around it. Continual mixing with surrounding populations (read "females") alone would easily explain the differences in steppe ancestry.

Generalissimo
07-29-2017, 12:02 PM
There are only a couple Copper -BA age anatolian Y -samples, beyond the Neolithic.
So Epp's suggestion isn't quite falsified

Shouldn't there be some R1b in Neolithic Anatolians if his claim that Z2103 is native to Anatolia has any chance?

Gravetto-Danubian
07-29-2017, 12:14 PM
Shouldn't there be some R1b in Neolithic Anatolians if his claim that Z2103 is native to Anatolia has any chance?

The Anatolian Neolithic samples date to ~ 5000 BC, whilst Z2013 split from L51 ~ 4000 BC. Whatever the case, I don't know enough about the specifics of Z2013 to have an opinion on the matter.

Silesian
07-29-2017, 12:30 PM
There's no R1b in any of the ancient Anatolian samples.

The first Near Eastern R1b shows up in Bronze Age Armenia, and the first Z2103 in Iron Age Iran, in a sample with Steppe admixture.

Clever boy:)
Hopefully you will be able to get your hands on Vudecol R1b-Z2103 and Bell Beaker Hungary R1b-Z2103 when they are released[comparing them with their contemporary in group R1b-Z2103 samples]. Parsing autosomal and defining R1b-Z2103 markers and compare them with Iran R1b-Z2103 should prove to be very interesting for those who know what they are positing. We also have a vague idea of Anatolian bronze age samples although non so far of the R1b-Z2103- variety.

R.Rocca
07-29-2017, 12:34 PM
A very interesting read about possible CWC (aka Single Grave Culture) movements into NE France...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/AOO_Graves_NE_France.png

Source: Salanova (2016) Behind the warriors: Bell Beakers and identities in Atlantic Europe (third millennium B.C.)


Three graves from northern France give rise to the question of the existence of traders,
which could explain the long-distance exchanges recorded during the 3rd millennium BC
(Fig. 1.9). These three burials share some particularities that distinguish them from other
Bell Beaker graves. They contain men or women buried in oval or rectangular pits in an
extended position, oriented according to an east-west axis, similar to what is observed in
the Corded Wares and Single Grave Cultures. Surrounding one of these graves, located near
Poitiers at La Folie, a circular ditch was found, in which postholes indicated the existence
of a wooden palisade, similar to examples from the Lower Rhine Valley (Tchérémissinoff
et al. 2011). In these three burials, the grave goods are invariably composed of All-Over-
Ornamented (AOO) beakers, with slender profiles and cord- or spatula-impressed
decorations, and of blades or daggers composed of yellow flint from the Grand-Pressigny
region (Indre-et-Loire, France). The two AOO graves from the Paris Basin (Jablines and
Ciry-Salsogne) are dated from 2570-2450 cal BC (Salanova 2011). All of the characteristics
of these graves refer to foreign burial practices, from their architecture to their grave goods,
which find comparisons in the Netherlands. According to archaeometric analyses, the AOO
beakers were all produced locally, despite their typology indicative of an exogenous affinity.
These graves are geographically located on the road that linked the Grand-Pressigny flint
workshops to the Lower Rhine Valley, where daggers and blades imported from the Grand-
Pressigny region have been recorded and were frequently included as grave goods associated
with AOO beakers (Lanting & Waals 1976; Delcourt-Vlaeminck 2004). These three graves
could therefore reflect an ethnic identity, including foreign traders in charge of another
exchange network, linking the Atlantic coast to the Rhine Valley. This network did not
remain thereafter; importations stopped at approximately 2400 cal BC, probably being
replaced by exchanges of copper daggers.

epp
07-29-2017, 12:50 PM
The area of Csepel is a small strip of land on the Danube with a mess of Copper Age Culture all around it. Continual mixing with surrounding populations (read "females") alone would easily explain the differences in steppe ancestry.
Could do, although the small amount of Steppe ancestry in non-R1b Bell Beaker would suggest that R1b BB were not particularly the mixing kind.

Silesian
07-29-2017, 12:59 PM
The Anatolian Neolithic samples date to ~ 5000 BC, whilst Z2013 split from L51 ~ 4000 BC. Whatever the case, I don't know enough about the specifics of Z2013 to have an opinion on the matter.

I find this R1b-Z2103 sample amongst KMS-75 somewhat thought provoking:)
Yamnaya- Russia-Lopatino II, Sok River, Samara -3300-2700 BC-1025251 R1b1a2a* [L23] L49+, [I]L23+, PF6399+, L150+, L1353+, PF6509+, M269+, CTS12478+, L51-, Z2105-
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

epp
07-29-2017, 12:59 PM
Shouldn't there be some R1b in Neolithic Anatolians if his claim that Z2103 is native to Anatolia has any chance?

I would be interested to know from where you think Yamna got its Near Eastern admixture, if not R1b.

By the way, (i) I said Balkan (not originally Anatolian); and (ii) it was not a claim, but a proposition.

Silesian
07-29-2017, 01:14 PM
I find this R1b-Z2103 sample amongst KMS-75 somewhat thought provoking:)
Yamnaya- Russia-Lopatino II, Sok River, Samara -3300-2700 BC-1025251 R1b1a2a* [L23] L49+, [I]L23+, PF6399+, L150+, L1353+, PF6509+, M269+, CTS12478+, L51-, Z2105-
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

M343758 sample -Eurasia K14 Neolithic Admixture Proportions


This calculator's focus is calculation of admixture proportions and modeling of an individual based on a collection of ancient Neolithic and Bronze Age genomes from across Eurasia.

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Oracle results:

Eurasia K14 Neolithic Oracle

# Population Percent
1 Afansievo_Yamnaya 73.41
2 Early_European_Farmers 12.94
3 SHG_WHG 3.69
4 Kalash 3.23
5 S_Amerindian 2.02
6 S_Indian 2
7 Neolithic_Balkan_Farmers 1.71
8 Papuan 0.82
9 N_Amerindian 0.1
10 SW_Asian 0.09

# Population (source) Distance
1 Andronovo_BA4 14.35
2 Corded_Ware_BA5 20.37
3 Yamnaya_BA2 20.78
4 Stalingrad_EBA 21.18
5 Andronovo_BA2 22.46
6 Afansievo_BA1 23.8
7 Yamnaya_BA1 24.8
8 Corded_Ware_LN2 26.08

Generalissimo
07-29-2017, 01:18 PM
I would be interested to know from where you think Yamna got its Near Eastern admixture, if not R1b.

By the way, (i) I said Balkan (not originally Anatolian); and (ii) it was not a claim, but a proposition.

There's plenty of R1b on the Eastern European steppe prior to Yamnaya with precisely 0% Near Eastern admixture.

So the chances that R1b came to the steppe from the Near East are close to 0%.

ADW_1981
07-29-2017, 01:20 PM
I would be interested to know from where you think Yamna got its Near Eastern admixture, if not R1b.

By the way, (i) I said Balkan (not originally Anatolian); and (ii) it was not a claim, but a proposition.

Yamnaya doesn't have "Near Eastern" admixture per-se, it has CHG (reference pop. 13000 ybp Georgians), which the R1b/R1a men who were on the steppe acquired through contact with groups in the northern caucasus mountains. This might have been the medium they acquired pastoralism as well.

epp
07-29-2017, 01:25 PM
I find this R1b-Z2103 sample amongst KMS-75 somewhat thought provoking:)
Yamnaya- Russia-Lopatino II, Sok River, Samara -3300-2700 BC-1025251 R1b1a2a* [L23] L49+, [I]L23+, PF6399+, L150+, L1353+, PF6509+, M269+, CTS12478+, L51-, Z2105-
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/copperbronzeagedna.shtml

It's sad this guy's descendants seem to have died out to be replaced by Z2103 and R1a-M417:(
At least it seems some R1bxZ2103 survived at least the start of Yamna.

It would be interesting to see his autosomal DNA to check if he had any Near Eastern admixture.
It would also be interesting if we could see his STRs to calculate variance from both Z2103 and L51.

epp
07-29-2017, 01:50 PM
There's plenty of R1b on the Eastern European steppe prior to Yamnaya with precisely 0% Near Eastern admixture.
I'm sure there is. Probably much of M73 for starters, and loads of other branches that died out.


So the chances that R1b came to the steppe from the Near East are close to 0%.
I don't see that follows. There are only two ways in which Near Eastern admixture could have reached Yamnayan R1b - either Near Eastern non-R1b people came into Yamna (in which case, who were they and where were they?), or a branch of R1b located in the vicinity of the Near East brought it with them themselves.

I don't think it's useful to ask whether R1b (per se) "came to the Steppe" as if R1b were one big tribal unit wandering around together for 20,000 years. Undoubtedly, during that time, it has branched off in all sorts of different directions.

epp
07-29-2017, 01:55 PM
Yamnaya doesn't have "Near Eastern" admixture per-se, it has CHG (reference pop. 13000 ybp Georgians), which the R1b/R1a men who were on the steppe acquired through contact with groups in the northern caucasus mountains. This might have been the medium they acquired pastoralism as well.
Exactly. It was a population that had mixed with Southern people, presumably in the South - unless it was too lazy to move, and had ordered all the Near Eastern women to be brought to them.

Generalissimo
07-29-2017, 01:59 PM
There are only two ways in which Near Eastern admixture could have reached Yamnayan R1b - either Near Eastern non-R1b people came into Yamna (in which case, who were they and where were they?), or a branch of R1b located in the vicinity of the Near East brought it with them themselves.

The most Near Eastern Yamnaya sample to date is a female with a Near Eastern mtDNA. I'm betting her father was from the steppe and mother from the Caucasus.

You're not very good at this.

rms2
07-29-2017, 02:14 PM
Budhzak isnt before Yamnaya, it is a regional variant, or according to some, a separate entity (which would mean there is no Yamnaya culture west of the Dnieper).

I didn't say Budzhak came before Yamnaya. We were talking about Heyd's reference to a Yamnaya link to a pre-BB culture. So, the sequence is 1) Yamnaya, 2) pre-BB culture, 3) BB. If Budzhak can be substituted for "pre-BB culture", then naturally it would not precede Yamnaya itself.

I mentioned Budzhak because of the posts about the Yamnaya arrowheads in eastern Bell Beaker and the apparent link to Budzhak (Bood Jacques).



Whatever the case, we now have Heyds corresponding paper so dont have to rely on a second hand account, despite its utmost reliability. We would all like to see that individual in a Kurgan like burial from SW Iberia tested, which might show and early, low level immigration to iberia . . .

The nice thing about the statement from Heyd's lecture as reported by Jean is that it really needs no sifting or interpreting. It's pretty straightforward.

rms2
07-29-2017, 02:23 PM
Yes, I think Carpathians are more plausible immediate ancestors of L51 than Steppe or Corded Ware populations.

Er . . . I was talking about the thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin and near the Tisza River in Hungary. The men whose skeletons are currently in those kurgans had their ultimate origin on the steppe.

This thread was supposed to be about Corded Ware as a possible source of P312. Instead much of it is a remedial course on the steppe origin of R1b-L51.

MitchellSince1893
07-29-2017, 03:32 PM
Unfortunately, for this website address, it said 'Page not found'.

Not sure what's happening
http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135962.DC1/135962-1.pdf

It works the first couple of times then it fails

Try this. Copy and paste this in a url window

biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2017/05/09/135962.DC1/135962-1.pdf


There is a lot more info here in Supplementary Information and
Supplementary Table links


http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962.figures-only

MitchellSince1893
07-29-2017, 04:40 PM
We must be looking at different Olaide studies. None of these samples are on the one I'm looking at....

You selectively mentioned the only two samples that have more Steppe DNA and did not mention the much larger number of samples that have less Steppe DNA.

As I mentioned there is a lot of data in the supplemental section.



Table S4. Modelling populations as a mixture of Yamnaya_Samara, Anatolia_Neolithic
and WHG. Table shows mixture proportions for each source population with standard
errors, and P-values for the associated model.

Here are the populations sorted by Yamnaya Samara percentage

Test Yamnaya Samara
BB_Hungary_Szi3 74.3%
Corded_Ware_Germany 70.7%
BB_Hungary_Szi2 56.5%
BB_England_SOU 56.1%
BB_Netherlands_Tui 55.7%
England_EBA 52.5%
Scotland_MBA 51.6%
BB_France_Mon 51.3%
England_MBA 51.0%
BB_France_AHP 50.9%
Wales_BA 49.0%
BB_France_HAR 48.9%
BB_Germany_SAN 48.1%
England_EMBA 47.0%
BB_Czech_CBO 46.7%
Scotland_EBA 46.5%
BB_Poland_Sam 46.2%
BB_Hungary_HUN 44.9%
BB_Germany_BAVm 43.1%
BB_England_NOR 42.8%
BB_Germany_BAV 42.1%
BB_England_SOU outlier 30.7%
BB_Italy_Par 30.1%
BB_Spain_Arr2 17.8%
BB_France_Mar 17.3%
BB_Hungary_Bud1 15.7%
BB_Spain_Cer 0.0%
BB_Spain_Arr1 0.0%
BB_Spain_Yes 0.0%
BB_Portugal_Mou 0.0%
BB_Portugal_Alm 0.0%
BB_France_Heg 0.0%
BB_Hungary_Szi1 0.0%
England_Neolithic 0.0%
Scotland_Neolithic 0.0%
France_MLN 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_MUR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_MIR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_POR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_ALA 0.0%
Globular_Amphora_LN 0.0%
Iberia_MN 0.0%
Germany_MN 0.0%
TRB_Sweden_MN 0.0%
Hungary_LCA 0.0%
Ireland_MN.SG 0.0%

On a related note. Interesting map of Yamnaya component in present day European populations.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/8d/c4/2a8dc46ec4dc2ddffb01c39360455925.png

MitchellSince1893
07-30-2017, 04:40 AM
This paper by Leo Klejn provides totally different perspective on the "Yamnaya" genetic component. It's where the map in the above post came from. Referencing this map it says,


The map shows that the ‘Yamnaya’ genetic component is hardly Yamnaya in origin; rather it is a more ancient component originating in the populations of northern Europe from whence it spread both to the steppes and to the cultures of central Europe and elsewhere...the strange distribution of the genetic ‘steppe’ contributions to the Corded Ware cultures and their descendants revealed in Haak et al. (2015): very rich in the north of Europe and increasingly weaker towards the south, in Hungary, just where the western edge of the Yamnaya culture itself is located. This distribution is at odds with the suggestion that the source of the contribution to the Corded Ware cultures is the Yamnaya culture in the south-east; but the same distribution appears quite natural if one suggests that the common source (of both cultural units) is located in the north of Europe—hence the common cause of the genetic similarity

http://sci-hub.cc/saveme/b03a/[email protected]

The Paper has a rebuttal to the above observations


Klejn’s argument is based on contemporary patterns of genetic variation, which are often poor predictors of their distributions in the past. Available aDNA data demonstrate that neither Mesolithic nor Neolithic Scandinavians have Yamnaya affinity (Lazaridis et al., 2014; Skoglund et al., 2014).

And then a rebuttal to the rebuttal from Klejn

with regard to the barrow burials of the third millennium BC in the basin of the Danube, although they have been assigned to the Yamnaya culture, I would consider them as also belonging to another, separate culture, perhaps a mixed culture: its burial custom is typical of the Yamnaya, but its pottery is absolutely not Yamnaya, but local Balkan with imports of distinctive corded beakers (Schnurbecher). I would not be surprised if Y-chromosome haplogroups of this population were somewhat similar to those of the Yamnaya, while mitochondrial groups were indigenous.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:04 AM
The most Near Eastern Yamnaya sample to date is a female with a Near Eastern mtDNA. I'm betting her father was from the steppe and mother from the Caucasus.

You're not very good at this.
On the other hand, you're very good at imagining you know both parents of an anonymous man who lived several thousand years ago. Can you see into the future too?

epp
07-30-2017, 09:12 AM
Quote Originally Posted by epp
There are only two ways in which Near Eastern admixture could have reached Yamnayan R1b - either Near Eastern non-R1b people came into Yamna (in which case, who were they and where were they?), or a branch of R1b located in the vicinity of the Near East brought it with them themselves.


The most Near Eastern Yamnaya sample to date is a female with a Near Eastern mtDNA. I'm betting her father was from the steppe and mother from the Caucasus.

Either the Near Eastern/Caucasus mother would have moved to the Steppe father or the other way round. To procreate, you have to meet somewhere.
I'm sure you'll get the hang of this eventually.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:19 AM
Er . . . I was talking about the thousands of Yamnaya kurgans in the Carpathian Basin and near the Tisza River in Hungary. The men whose skeletons are currently in those kurgans had their ultimate origin on the steppe.

This thread was supposed to be about Corded Ware as a possible source of P312. Instead much of it is a remedial course on the steppe origin of R1b-L51.
I know the thread is supposed to be about Corded Ware, and that you were posting instead about the Steppe and Yamnaya kurgans, but I think we can tolerate you drifting off the point occasionally.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-30-2017, 09:23 AM
Quote Originally Posted by epp
There are only two ways in which Near Eastern admixture could have reached Yamnayan R1b - either Near Eastern non-R1b people came into Yamna (in which case, who were they and where were they?), or a branch of R1b located in the vicinity of the Near East brought it with them themselves.


Either the Near Eastern/Caucasus mother would have moved to the Steppe father or the other way round. To procreate, you have to meet somewhere.
I'm sure you'll get the hang of this eventually.

Epp, can you give more details about your calculations and what they show, to go toward understanding why you think M269 is from Balkans, and P312 from Western Europe, or what have you. Perhaps a summary of findings of the major Clades.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:43 AM
Here are the populations sorted by Yamnaya Samara percentage

Test Yamnaya Samara
BB_Hungary_Szi3 74.3%
Corded_Ware_Germany 70.7%
BB_Hungary_Szi2 56.5%
BB_England_SOU 56.1%
BB_Netherlands_Tui 55.7%
England_EBA 52.5%
Scotland_MBA 51.6%
BB_France_Mon 51.3%
England_MBA 51.0%
BB_France_AHP 50.9%
Wales_BA 49.0%
BB_France_HAR 48.9%
BB_Germany_SAN 48.1%
England_EMBA 47.0%
BB_Czech_CBO 46.7%
Scotland_EBA 46.5%
BB_Poland_Sam 46.2%
BB_Hungary_HUN 44.9%
BB_Germany_BAVm 43.1%
BB_England_NOR 42.8%
BB_Germany_BAV 42.1%
BB_England_SOU outlier 30.7%
BB_Italy_Par 30.1%
BB_Spain_Arr2 17.8%
BB_France_Mar 17.3%
BB_Hungary_Bud1 15.7%
BB_Spain_Cer 0.0%
BB_Spain_Arr1 0.0%
BB_Spain_Yes 0.0%
BB_Portugal_Mou 0.0%
BB_Portugal_Alm 0.0%
BB_France_Heg 0.0%
BB_Hungary_Szi1 0.0%
England_Neolithic 0.0%
Scotland_Neolithic 0.0%
France_MLN 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_MUR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_MIR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_POR 0.0%
Iberia_Chalcolithic_ALA 0.0%
Globular_Amphora_LN 0.0%
Iberia_MN 0.0%
Germany_MN 0.0%
TRB_Sweden_MN 0.0%
Hungary_LCA 0.0%
Ireland_MN.SG 0.0%


Thanks for this.

Yes, this presents a uniform distribution of Yamna Samara DNA between West/East sites across Northern and Central Europe. The pie charts presumably reflect the fact that the largest sample sets show a greater proportion of Yamna DNA in the West compared to the East.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:49 AM
On a related note. Interesting map of Yamnaya component in present day European populations.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/8d/c4/2a8dc46ec4dc2ddffb01c39360455925.png
Thanks again. Yes, this is interesting, especially as the Yamnaya component proportion seems to closely match R1a, and not really at all R1b.

R.Rocca
07-30-2017, 11:59 AM
Thanks again. Yes, this is interesting, especially as the Yamnaya component proportion seems to closely match R1a, and not really at all R1b.

Fortunately we have ancient DNA that tells us that the Yamnaya component was heavy as well in all of the L51 samples of the Early Bronze age. It's refreshing to not have to rely on frequency, variance and autosomal components of modern populations like we had to 10 years ago.

rms2
07-30-2017, 01:25 PM
I know the thread is supposed to be about Corded Ware, and that you were posting instead about the Steppe and Yamnaya kurgans, but I think we can tolerate you drifting off the point occasionally.

Sorry, but the basic remedial postings became necessary when you asserted, based on modern variance, that L51 was already in western Europe, including Britain, by the time Corded Ware began, circa 3,000 BC, and nearly half a millennium before the advent of Bell Beaker.

You're still pushing a similar line.

Isidro
07-30-2017, 01:28 PM
One thing that keeps popping up as rebuttal to anything that doesn't resemble a Yamnaya origin for L51, within CWC or "independent BB" is that autosomal modern components mean diddle.

It is question of putting it in perspective and give value where value is due. To be clear, millions of modern results are a product of population shifts, wars, plagues and most importantly demographic exponential growth over the past 5000 years, but why this results can not even be brought up in any context except to prove origin of M269-L51 is from the steppe?. Surreal. Several hundred aDNA from 7000 BC to 1000 BC scattered across Eurasia suitable for dna extraction have all the weight science requires as proof knowing as fact that there are millions of square mile areas not covered . That would be possibly accurate if the world had it's origins in a biblical creation time frame but we know ( I guess not everyone) that it is not the case and that populations from let's say 3000 BC were already autosomaly heavily mixed, hence we don't know their origins for single marker Y or Mt by any means, we can guess yes but beyond that caution commands more respect than boldness imposing one's views.

rms2
07-30-2017, 01:33 PM
Quote Originally Posted by epp
There are only two ways in which Near Eastern admixture could have reached Yamnayan R1b - either Near Eastern non-R1b people came into Yamna (in which case, who were they and where were they?), or a branch of R1b located in the vicinity of the Near East brought it with them themselves.


Either the Near Eastern/Caucasus mother would have moved to the Steppe father or the other way round. To procreate, you have to meet somewhere.
I'm sure you'll get the hang of this eventually.

epp,

Are you at all familiar with the Kurgan Hypothesis and the prehistory of the Pontic-Caspian steppe? Familiar at all with Maikop and the interaction between steppe people and the Caucasus?

Have you read David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Marija Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, or Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys?

You don't seem to be familiar with the necessary background material.

R.Rocca
07-30-2017, 01:35 PM
I totally missed this part of your post. Bingo! I think we found our arrowhead trail.

Budzhak territory is located roughly half way between the heart shaped arrow heads in eastern Bell Beaker in Poland and the similar style arrow heads on the lower Dnieper and north of the Sea of Azov Yamnaya

The arrowheads found in the Alkalia burial with the "archer's kit" are of Type A - Sub-type II - Version 2.

Interesting to note that, while Type A arrowheads dominate in quiver sets of both Yamnaya and Catacomb Culture burials, quiver sets are only common in the latter culture.

Silesian
07-30-2017, 02:18 PM
On the other hand, you're very good at imagining you know both parents of an anonymous man who lived several thousand years ago. Can you see into the future too?

Not to come across as being vexatious to your posts, but on genetic end he's been pretty good,[positing for example young subclades of R1a found in Europe/Sintashta- not originating in India-no evidence to date].Rms2 has quite a stellar track record also, pay attention to some of the counter points they are trying to convey. Posting the in group cluster preference of Yamnaya composition/position of BB Sz_3 in relation to Corded Ware R1a and Western/Central Europe BB-R1b-L51 [R1b-P312samples, is making your position very weak.
Try and think out of the box. Yamnaya and Sintashta were known for wagons and chariots, both forms of locomotion[Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Sintashta-culture-synonymous-with movement]. They needed to create and or borrow a vocabulary for such. No vocabulary exists in Proto-Afro-Asiatic, an adjacent Anatolian population. Conversely the oldest wagon burials do not exist in Northern remote settlements [ Sami people - Lapps or Laplanders) indigenous Finno-Ugric- speaking]like the map you posted showing/positing a northern admixture event combined with R1b group migrating from Anatolia/Levant.

R.Rocca
07-30-2017, 02:23 PM
One thing that keeps popping up as rebuttal to anything that doesn't resemble a Yamnaya origin for L51, within CWC or "independent BB" is that autosomal modern components mean diddle.

It is question of putting it in perspective and give value where value is due. To be clear, millions of modern results are a product of population shifts, wars, plagues and most importantly demographic exponential growth over the past 5000 years, but why this results can not even be brought up in any context except to prove origin of M269-L51 is from the steppe?. Surreal.

I think you just answered your own question as to the "why". Furthermore, it is obvious based on the L51 samples from Italy and Iberia that these samples have less steppe ancestry that those from the Corded Ware area, but still more steppe ancestry than modern samples from the same areas respectively. So, even in the Bronze Age, the pattern still holds true.


Several hundred aDNA from 7000 BC to 1000 BC scattered across Eurasia suitable for dna extraction have all the weight science requires as proof knowing as fact that there are millions of square mile areas not covered . That would be possibly accurate if the world had it's origins in a biblical creation time frame but we know ( I guess not everyone) that it is not the case and that populations from let's say 3000 BC were already autosomaly heavily mixed, hence we don't know their origins for single marker Y or Mt by any means, we can guess yes but beyond that caution commands more respect than boldness imposing one's views.

Sure we can guess, but sticking one's head in the sand by ignoring the overwhelming ancient DNA trend is simply lying to oneself... "surreal" as you put it.

kinman
07-30-2017, 03:04 PM
All the map indicates to me is that the populations being invaded (by the Yamnaya) were much smaller in Scandinavia than in southern Europe. Therefore, Yamnaya was able to insert its part of the admixture more readily. That would explain the high percentage in Scandinavia (more so than more recent population movements). Those two arrows coming from Scandinavia (added to the map by the author of that paper) are meaningless.




On a related note. Interesting map of Yamnaya component in present day European populations.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/8d/c4/2a8dc46ec4dc2ddffb01c39360455925.png

rms2
07-30-2017, 03:14 PM
All the map indicates to me is that the populations being invaded (by the Yamnaya) were much smaller in Scandinavia than in southern Europe. Therefore, Yamnaya was able to insert its part of the admixture more readily. That would explain the high percentage in Scandinavia (more so than more recent population movements). The arrows added to the map by the author of that paper are meaningless.

That's right, and the farther south one went in general, the bigger the population. Southern Europe had a relatively large population of Neolithic farmers, hence EEF tends to be a bigger proportion of the dna there than in northern Europe. (In Scandinavia, the invasive populations carrying the Yamnaya dna would have been derived from Corded Ware and Bell Beaker rather than Yamnaya itself.)

Of course, that map represents the modern situation, so it has to be understood that it includes all the changes that have taken place since the third millennium BC.

Just the same, it is interesting to note that the actual Pontic steppe has less Yamnaya dna than Scandinavia, Scotland, and northern England! That is partly an artifact of the changes that have taken place since the third millennium BC, but it could also be due in part to the population which is used as the Yamnaya standard: eastern Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Caspian steppe and the Volga-Ural steppe.

It might be interesting to see how that might change once we get some Yamnaya dna from the Pontic steppe and from the Carpathian Basin.

MitchellSince1893
07-30-2017, 05:16 PM
Based on the Iain McDonald dates for P312

3155 BC (3898 BC — 2568 BC)
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

There is good chance that P312 is predates Corded Ware and Western Yamnaya cultures. If it does then what culture did it belong? The obvious answer is that it was from further east in the Yamnaya culture.

TRB-Funnel Beaker (4300 BC–c. 2800 BC) was a predecessor of Corded Ware, and so was the Narva culture or eastern Baltic culture (c. 5300 to 1750 BC) and Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), 3400–2800 BC. I think I've read where GAC and Narva haven't had any R1b found in them, but are we able to rule out TRB as an origin for P312?

rms2
07-30-2017, 05:31 PM
Based on the Iain McDonald dates for P312

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

There is good chance that P312 is predates Corded Ware and Western Yamnaya cultures. If it does then what culture did it belong? The obvious answer is that it was from further east in the Yamnaya culture.

TRB-Funnel Beaker (4300 BC–c. 2800 BC) was a predecessor of Corded Ware, and so was the Narva culture or eastern Baltic culture (c. 5300 to 1750 BC) and Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), 3400–2800 BC. I think I've read where GAC and Narva haven't had any R1b found in them, but are we able to rule out TRB as an origin for P312?

If you look at the map on page 267 of Anthony's book, The Horse The Wheel and Language, you will see that it lists the five Eneolithic cultures of the Pontic-Caspian steppe just prior to the formation of the Yamnaya horizon as follows:

1. Mikhailovka I

2. Post-Mariupol

3. Late Sredni Stog

4. Late Khvalynsk

5. Repin

He gives the date range for those as 3800-3300 BC, which is slightly before McDonald's P312 estimate but within the ballpark.

ADW_1981
07-30-2017, 05:38 PM
Thanks again. Yes, this is interesting, especially as the Yamnaya component proportion seems to closely match R1a, and not really at all R1b.

Only because R1a matches the north east which is the region of Europe least impacted by the Middle Eastern farmers (EEF).

epp
07-30-2017, 07:50 PM
Fortunately we have ancient DNA that tells us that the Yamnaya component was heavy as well in all of the L51 samples of the Early Bronze age. It's refreshing to not have to rely on frequency, variance and autosomal components of modern populations like we had to 10 years ago.

I read that Corded Ware R1a samples were 79% Yamnayan DNA; whereas R1b Bell Beaker samples that I've looked at have been more like 40-50% Yamnayan DNA on average.

I agree that ancient samples are useful - in this respect, confirming what looks like a paradox, that Yamnayan R1b samples are significantly more similar to Corded Ware R1a than they are to West European R1b.

epp
07-30-2017, 08:00 PM
epp,

Are you at all familiar with the Kurgan Hypothesis and the prehistory of the Pontic-Caspian steppe? Familiar at all with Maikop and the interaction between steppe people and the Caucasus?

Have you read David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Marija Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, or Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys?

You don't seem to be familiar with the necessary background material.

Perhaps we should all list how many books we've read, and whoever has read the most gets announced officially correct.

epp
07-30-2017, 08:11 PM
One thing that keeps popping up as rebuttal to anything that doesn't resemble a Yamnaya origin for L51, within CWC or "independent BB" is that autosomal modern components mean diddle.

It is question of putting it in perspective and give value where value is due. To be clear, millions of modern results are a product of population shifts, wars, plagues and most importantly demographic exponential growth over the past 5000 years, but why this results can not even be brought up in any context except to prove origin of M269-L51 is from the steppe?. Surreal. Several hundred aDNA from 7000 BC to 1000 BC scattered across Eurasia suitable for dna extraction have all the weight science requires as proof knowing as fact that there are millions of square mile areas not covered . That would be possibly accurate if the world had it's origins in a biblical creation time frame but we know ( I guess not everyone) that it is not the case and that populations from let's say 3000 BC were already autosomaly heavily mixed, hence we don't know their origins for single marker Y or Mt by any means, we can guess yes but beyond that caution commands more respect than boldness imposing one's views.

Isidro, it is refreshing to find occasional caution from people on this forum. Some are so confident that they know it all, and seem on an evangelical-style crusade to impose their imagined certainty on everyone else.

Autosomal tests seem in any case to be an art, requiring the application of choice on the part of the researcher - very dangerous when you look at the apparent prejudice of many experts on this forum. I've seen autosomal tests for the same individual that come up with significantly different results depending on who carried out the test.

rms2
07-30-2017, 08:49 PM
Perhaps we should all list how many books we've read, and whoever has read the most gets announced officially correct.

It's evident you are not familiar with the minimum background material necessary to an intelligent discussion of this topic.

I'm not trying to belittle you, but your posts make that apparent. You really should try to become familiar with at least one or two of the books on that list I provided.

epp
07-30-2017, 08:52 PM
Not to come across as being vexatious to your posts, but on genetic end he's been pretty good,[positing for example young subclades of R1a found in Europe/Sintashta- not originating in India-no evidence to date].Rms2 has quite a stellar track record also, pay attention to some of the counter points they are trying to convey. Posting the in group cluster preference of Yamnaya composition/position of BB Sz_3 in relation to Corded Ware R1a and Western/Central Europe BB-R1b-L51 [R1b-P312samples, is making your position very weak.
Try and think out of the box. Yamnaya and Sintashta were known for wagons and chariots, both forms of locomotion[Yamnaya/Afanasievo/Sintashta-culture-synonymous-with movement]. They needed to create and or borrow a vocabulary for such. No vocabulary exists in Proto-Afro-Asiatic, an adjacent Anatolian population. Conversely the oldest wagon burials do not exist in Northern remote settlements [ Sami people - Lapps or Laplanders) indigenous Finno-Ugric- speaking]like the map you posted showing/positing a northern admixture event combined with R1b group migrating from Anatolia/Levant.

Unlike some others seem to have, I haven't got a box or a fixed opinion that I think within, nor an academic peer reputation that I need to protect. All I'm doing is comparing my analysis of modern DNA to other stuff that I read on this forum, and identifying a few implausibilities inherent in current opinion.

But, out of interest, do we know whether CW and/or BB used chariots?

rms2
07-30-2017, 09:02 PM
I read that Corded Ware R1a samples were 79% Yamnayan DNA; whereas R1b Bell Beaker samples that I've looked at have been more like 40-50% Yamnayan DNA on average.

A couple of things. The standard Yamnaya used for these comparisons is eastern Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Caspian and Volga-Ural steppe.

It is likely the source of Bell Beaker was western Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Pontic steppe and the Carpathian Basin. It had resided in close proximity to Neolithic farmer cultures like Cucuteni-Tripolye for quite some time and was probably already substantially shifted more toward the EEF side than eastern Yamnaya and Corded Ware (had you read some of the books I mentioned, you might already know this).

Bell Beaker, while contemporary with the latter part of Corded Ware, got a later start and went farther west and south, which required it to wade through, interact and admix with larger native Neolithic farmer populations than Corded Ware, hence, more farmer dna and a bit less Yamnaya.

If Gimbutas is right, and Bell Beaker is the product of the amalgam of Yamnaya and Vucedol in the Carpathian Basin, then the Bell Beaker mix emerged from the heart of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe", where some of the largest Near Eastern-derived Neolithic farmer populations resided. Naturally such an environment would dilute a culture's share of Yamnaya dna. Corded Ware came across the Northern European plain from the forest steppe/meadow steppe and dealt with sparser native populations.

The fact is that Bell Beaker still has a substantial share of Yamnaya dna, which is pretty obviously correlated with y haplogroup R1b-M269.



I agree that ancient samples are useful - in this respect, confirming what looks like a paradox, that Yamnayan R1b samples are significantly more similar to Corded Ware R1a than they are to West European R1b.

All of this stuff has been discussed over and over and over on this forum for the last couple of years. We should not have to do it again on this thread.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:15 PM
All the map indicates to me is that the populations being invaded (by the Yamnaya) were much smaller in Scandinavia than in southern Europe. Therefore, Yamnaya was able to insert its part of the admixture more readily. That would explain the high percentage in Scandinavia (more so than more recent population movements).
Three oddities in this:
1. BB seems to be either fairly heavily Steppe DNA or tiny amount of Steppe DNA, suggesting that P312 did not 'insert its admixture' very much into other local populations.
2. BB in Corded Ware areas has on average less Steppe DNA than BB in other North/Central European areas.
3. If Corded Ware areas only supported smaller populations, you would think these areas would also support a smaller incoming Yamnayan population, suggesting that each area would likely support the same proportion of Steppe DNA.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:18 PM
If you look at the map on page 267 of Anthony's book, The Horse The Wheel and Language, you will see that it lists the five Eneolithic cultures of the Pontic-Caspian steppe just prior to the formation of the Yamnaya horizon as follows:

1. Mikhailovka I

2. Post-Mariupol

3. Late Sredni Stog

4. Late Khvalynsk

5. Repin

He gives the date range for those as 3800-3300 BC, which is slightly before McDonald's P312 estimate but within the ballpark.
Promising - we are now starting to think outside of the Yamnaya box.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:27 PM
Only because R1a matches the north east which is the region of Europe least impacted by the Middle Eastern farmers (EEF).
Also promising - we are now starting to note R1b-L51's seemingly greater proximity than R1a to areas in which European farmers proliferated (i.e. South and West of Corded Ware).

rms2
07-30-2017, 09:32 PM
Three oddities in this:
1. BB seems to be either fairly heavily Steppe DNA or tiny amount of Steppe DNA, suggesting that P312 did not 'insert its admixture' very much into other local populations.

The "tiny amount of Steppe DNA', however you define that, occurs in non-Iberian Bell Beaker only in non-R1b samples. Lower levels of steppe dna in Bell Beaker tend to occur in places that had substantial Neolithic farmer populations. Pretty obviously admixture had occurred which diluted the level of steppe dna.

Early Iberian Bell Beaker had no steppe dna.



2. BB in Corded Ware areas has on average less Steppe DNA than BB in other North/Central European areas.

The differences were minuscule. Besides, some of the BB steppe dna levels in Italy, Spain, and France (non-Corded Ware zones) are much lower than the BB steppe levels in Corded Ware areas.



3. If Corded Ware areas only supported smaller populations, you would think these areas would also support a smaller incoming Yamnayan population, suggesting that each area would likely support the same proportion of Steppe DNA.

Kinman wasn't talking about how big a population Scandinavia could support but the fact that Scandinavia had a smaller native population when steppe people arrived. As I explained in a subsequent post, that was true of northern Europe in general: it was more sparsely populated with Neolithic farmers than southern Europe. That is why northern Europe has a higher proportion of Yamnaya ancestry than southern Europe, and southern Europe has more EEF than northern Europe.

Gravetto-Danubian
07-30-2017, 09:39 PM
There may be something to the fact that Scandinavia and perhaps the northernmost littoral of Europe already had some kind of EHG admixture, in Mesolithic even into the middle neolithic period

epp
07-30-2017, 09:40 PM
It's evident you are not familiar with the minimum background material necessary to an intelligent discussion of this topic.

I'm not trying to belittle you, but your posts make that apparent. You really should try to become familiar with at least one or two of the books on that list I provided.

When you call other people's posts 'crap' and 'bs', and note them to be 'remedial', this is not what I would call intelligent discussion.

And I was not aware that I was required to read a list of books approved by you in order to be allowed to participate on this forum.

epp
07-30-2017, 09:51 PM
It is likely the source of Bell Beaker was western Yamnaya, the Yamnaya of the Pontic steppe and the Carpathian Basin. It had resided in close proximity to Neolithic farmer cultures like Cucuteni-Tripolye for quite some time and was probably already substantially shifted more toward the EEF side than eastern Yamnaya and Corded Ware (had you read some of the books I mentioned, you might already know this).
If you'd read my posts a little more carefully, instead of responding with knee-jerk insults, you might have noticed that my own analysis was estimating a most likely North Balkan formational start point for L51 or its immediate ancestors (immediately adjacent to the Pontic Steppe and the Carpathian Basin).

rms2
07-30-2017, 09:55 PM
When you call other people's posts 'crap' and 'bs', and note them to be 'remedial', this is not what I would call intelligent discussion.

No one called your posts crap or bs.

I did not say your posts were remedial. That would imply that you were schooling the rest of us. I said much of this thread had become remedial because we had to address the steppe origin of R1b-L51, a topic that has already been addressed for the last several years. This thread was intended to address the idea that P312 might have had its origin within Corded Ware. It wasn't supposed to break down into another of those interminable arguments with persons who object to the idea of L51 being Indo-European.



And I was not aware that I was required to read a list of books approved by you in order to be allowed to participate on this forum.

The books I suggested are pretty standard and pretty basic, as well. Apparently you have not read any of them.

No one says you have to read them to be allowed to participate, just to know what the heck you're talking about.

rms2
07-30-2017, 10:00 PM
If you'd read my posts a little more carefully, instead of responding with knee-jerk insults, you might have noticed that my own analysis was estimating a most likely North Balkan formational start point for L51 or its immediate ancestors (immediately adjacent to the Pontic Steppe and the Carpathian Basin).

I read that, along with your post saying that L51 was already in western Europe, including Britain, by the beginning of Corded Ware (c. 3000 BC), which would put it there about half a millennium or more (in the case of Britain) before the advent of Bell Beaker.

Obviously you and I were not talking about the same things.

epp
07-30-2017, 10:08 PM
The "tiny amount of Steppe DNA', however you define that, occurs in non-Iberian Bell Beaker only in non-R1b samples. Lower levels of steppe dna in Bell Beaker tend to occur in places that had substantial Neolithic farmer populations. Pretty obviously admixture had occurred which diluted the level of steppe dna.
Exactly, but the evidence suggests that the admixture occurred before P312 BB, not particularly with it.


The differences were minuscule.
Exactly. The lower Steppe DNA within R1b (than R1a) is not because R1a was in a less populous CW area, because R1b BB within the CW area was equally low, if not lower, in Steppe DNA than R1b BB further South and West.


Kinman wasn't talking about how big a population Scandinavia could support but the fact that Scandinavia had a smaller native population when steppe people arrived. As I explained in a subsequent post, that was true of northern Europe in general: it was more sparsely populated with Neolithic farmers than southern Europe. That is why northern Europe has a higher proportion of Yamnaya ancestry than southern Europe, and southern Europe has more EEF than northern Europe.
But R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions. If Scandinavia supported less people, it would also presumably support less Yamnayan immigrants as well. All things being equal, the proportion of Yamnayan DNA would be the same, irrespective of the population level.

epp
07-30-2017, 10:18 PM
There may be something to the fact that Scandinavia and perhaps the northernmost littoral of Europe already had some kind of EHG admixture, in Mesolithic even into the middle neolithic period
Yes, very good point. Scandinavia might have been replete with Yamnayan-related DNA before Yamnayan people arrived there and mixed with them, thus exaggerating the hypothesised link between Yamna and CW.

R1b-L51 alternatively might have been a mixture between Yamnayan and unrelated non-EHG Central or Western European people before P312 BB started predominating.

rms2
07-30-2017, 10:19 PM
Exactly, but the evidence suggests that the admixture occurred before P312 BB, not particularly with it.

What are you talking about? When steppe or steppe derived people moved into an area, they mixed with the people there. If those people had no steppe dna, then the level of steppe dna was diluted by having them as breeding partners. If the native population was much larger than the invasive steppe population, then steppe dna was diluted faster and more substantially.



Exactly. The lower Steppe DNA within R1b (than R1a) is not because R1a was in a less populous CW area, because R1b BB within the CW area was equally low, if not lower, in Steppe DNA than R1b BB further South and West.

Not true. As I pointed out, there are BB examples from Italy, Spain, and France that have much lower steppe dna than BB in Corded Ware areas. Italy, Spain, and France all had substantial Neolithic farmer populations, hence, greater dilution of steppe dna.



But R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions. If Scandinavia supported less people, it would also presumably support less Yamnayan immigrants as well. All things being equal, the proportion of Yamnayan DNA would be the same, irrespective of the population level.

We were NOT talking about how many people Scandinavia could support. This is pretty simple. Scandinavia had a smaller native population, so the incoming steppe people made a greater genetic impact. They had fewer natives to mix with in Scandinavia and fewer natives to dilute their steppe dna.

The same thing held true for northern Europe in general. It had a smaller population than southern Europe, which is why northern Europe has a greater proportion of steppe ancestry and southern Europe has a greater proportion of EEF.

Who ever said, ". . . R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions"? I don't think that is true, and it is certainly not self-evidently true, at any rate.

Silesian
07-30-2017, 10:24 PM
Unlike some others seem to have, I haven't got a box or a fixed opinion that I think within, nor an academic peer reputation that I need to protect.

Neither do i, as a borderline uneducated hillbilly.


All I'm doing is comparing my analysis of modern DNA to other stuff that I read on this forum, and identifying a few implausibilities inherent in current opinion.

I'm also trying to trace my ancestors[R1b-Z2110>593+. I had read no books except one, not really known for in depth ancestral heritage, [bad habit picked up in a former religion/cult-another long winded story]-and 0 books on dissenting archaeological/genetic evidence; so was pretty ignorant. In my quest I tried to join many types of ydna projects Poland, Turkey,Ukraine, Russia, Indian etc.. to try and find my ancestors some projects were very helpful others not[like Armenian project, only to have been cast out] Then I started this thread 3 years ago with a handful of strs, I did not know of Yamnaya/Corded Ware/Bell Beakers, or all the kurgans or even Eastern Sintashta in the region. At that time I had even speculated[another forum member was kind enough to help me] about one of the forum members results who came from the Urals L277+ compared to my branch Z2110 found in Poland. I speculated and shared my views on the possibility of being R1b-L277,Z2110 P312 related in Europe/Volga within this forum, and with one with initials of A.K. who had at the time thought L51+ branched and come through Africa. Anyway, here is my original thread. One of the names we were going to call our branch of R1b was "Carpithian" I tried in vain to try and convince some with qualified backgrounds to start our own project, however it was not to be.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1834-R1b1a2a1-(L23-)-L23EE-Type-Z2103-Predicted_-DYS-389II-31-33-DYS-464AB-14-15

A few years later -look what pop's up in a scientific paper BB_Hungary_Szi3 74.3%The Hungarian BB Sz_3 is R1b-Z2103+ and buried in a manner of Bell Beaker.


[I]Here are the populations sorted by Yamnaya Samara percentage

Test Yamnaya Samara
BB_Hungary_Szi3 74.3%
Corded_Ware_Germany 70.7%
BB_Hungary_Szi2 56.5%
BB_England_SOU 56.1%
BB_Netherlands_Tui 55.7%




But, out of interest, do we know whether CW and/or BB used chariots?
Dates and Snp's
As far as i know there are very old wagon[4k+/-]/chariot burials[Sintashta] around R1b and R1a regions - Maykop/Balkan/Sintashta region. Wagon and chariots and wheels are of interest in the chronological aspect of R1a and R1b and just when wagons were used. Yfull has good tree with valuable dates. You will notice a group preference cluster around the 6000YBP timeframe,[ 300+/-yrs] L23+,L584+, Z2103+Z2106,Z2110,L51+ if this has a bearing on the formation of wagons and/or change in climatic conditions and or mass
dispersals/migrations remains to be seen.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/

epp
07-30-2017, 10:24 PM
This thread was intended to address the idea that P312 might have had its origin within Corded Ware. It wasn't supposed to break down into another of those interminable arguments with persons who object to the idea of L51 being Indo-European.
I've already told you that I thought L51 was most likely Indo-European. You are fighting imaginary wars.

rms2
07-30-2017, 10:36 PM
I've already told you that I thought L51 was most likely Indo-European. You are fighting imaginary wars.

You are making some serious errors in your claims about it then. What Indo-Europeans were there in western Europe before Corded Ware and Bell Beaker? If L51 was already there (including in Britain) by the beginning of Corded Ware (c. 3000 BC) that would it put it there well before any known Indo-Europeans, ergo, it could not be Indo-European.

Or are you imagining an unknown tribe of Indo-Europeans who got to western Europe ahead of Corded Ware and half a millennium or more ahead of Bell Beaker?

Putting L51 in western Europe around the beginning of Corded Ware also puts it there about the time Yamnaya was first moving out of the steppe and northwest up the Danube.

epp
07-30-2017, 10:48 PM
What are you talking about? When steppe or steppe derived people moved into an area, they mixed with the people there. If those people had no steppe dna, then the level of steppe dna was diluted by having them as breeding partners.
Simplistic. They didn't just breed at a constant rate with anyone they came across. They might have mixed, or fought, or avoided, or ignored.


As I pointed out, there are BB examples from Italy, Spain, and France that have much lower steppe dna than BB in Corded Ware areas. Italy, Spain, and France all had substantial Neolithic farmer populations, hence, greater dilution of steppe dna.
As I have already pointed out, in the Olaide study, French proportions had on average higher Steppe DNA proportion than further East.


We were NOT talking about how many people Scandinavia could support. This is pretty simple. Scandinavia had a smaller native population, so the incoming steppe people made a greater genetic impact. They had fewer natives to mix with in Scandinavia and fewer natives to dilute their steppe dna.
Why did Scandinavia have a smaller native population if it is not about how many people Scandinavia could support?


Who ever said, ". . . R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions"? I don't think that is true, and it is certainly not self-evidently true, at any rate.
Of course it is. R1 lineages form majority populations in most regions of Europe - North, South, East and West.

rms2
07-30-2017, 10:59 PM
Simplistic. They didn't just breed at a constant rate with anyone they came across. They might have mixed, or fought, or avoided, or ignored . . .

The basics still applied. If steppe people bred with people with no steppe dna, then the steppe dna of their offspring was diluted. If that native non-steppe population was much larger than the invasive steppe population, then the steppe dna was diluted faster and more substantially.

The farther south one went, the bigger the population of Neolithic farmers. As a consequence, steppe dna declines as one moves south in Europe.



Why did Scandinavia have a smaller native population if it is not about how many people Scandinavia could support?

It doesn't matter. The fact is that the Neolithic Revolution arrived late in Scandinavia and elsewhere in northern Europe and with fewer southern farmers. The Scandinavian population was smaller, so the invasive steppe people made a greater genetic impact. Same basic story for the rest of northern Europe.



Of course it is. R1 lineages form majority populations in most regions of Europe - North, South, East and West.

Oi. They do now, but that does not mean, as you said, ". . . R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions".

And even though "R1 lineages form majority populations in most regions of Europe", their modern frequencies differ considerably.

There is no reason to think R1 spread across Europe in some sort of amazingly uniform manner.

Net Down G5L
07-31-2017, 07:26 AM
Based on the Iain McDonald dates for P312

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

There is good chance that P312 is predates Corded Ware and Western Yamnaya cultures. If it does then what culture did it belong? The obvious answer is that it was from further east in the Yamnaya culture.

TRB-Funnel Beaker (4300 BC–c. 2800 BC) was a predecessor of Corded Ware, and so was the Narva culture or eastern Baltic culture (c. 5300 to 1750 BC) and Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), 3400–2800 BC. I think I've read where GAC and Narva haven't had any R1b found in them, but are we able to rule out TRB as an origin for P312?

A bit early in the morning so not very awake.... but I recall R1b was found in Narva culture - see:
Jones et al 2017 The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early European Farmers

Also if I recall correctly Genetiker found they were ancestral M73 so a possible Narva link to M269>P312 seems to have been written off by most people (no CHG etc). (Of course a couple of samples does not preclude the possibility that M269 line was also present in the Narva culture and as R1b was not found in later samples - possibly moved SE out of the area to pick up Steppe admixture???).

If I recall correctly Gravetto Danubian did some admixture modelling that gave Latvian hunter gatherer as a best fit input match for Bell Beaker.

Things have moved on with Olalde, Mathieson etc since then and with Olalde GAC/TRB like possible input to BB.

Would be interested to know if Gravetto Danubian has revisited / new thoughts on this post Olalde - but I guess we need the genomes first.

ADW_1981
07-31-2017, 02:10 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Hungarian R1b that was reported along with the Vucedol sample back in 2015? I know we since have an updated in Olalde that the Vucedol was Z2103.

rms2
07-31-2017, 02:48 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Hungarian R1b that was reported along with the Vucedol sample back in 2015? I know we since have an updated in Olalde that the Vucedol was Z2103.

Those two were from Szécsényi-Nagy's doctoral dissertation, Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin (http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf). The non-Vucedol R1b was tested as far as R1b-M269 and was a skeleton from the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950-1,760 cal BC), KON 6.

The Gáta/Wieslburg culture is supposed to have been an offshoot of Bell Beaker.

I'm not sure anything further has been done with it.

Webb
07-31-2017, 03:51 PM
Based on the Iain McDonald dates for P312

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

There is good chance that P312 is predates Corded Ware and Western Yamnaya cultures. If it does then what culture did it belong? The obvious answer is that it was from further east in the Yamnaya culture.

TRB-Funnel Beaker (4300 BC–c. 2800 BC) was a predecessor of Corded Ware, and so was the Narva culture or eastern Baltic culture (c. 5300 to 1750 BC) and Globular Amphora Culture (GAC), 3400–2800 BC. I think I've read where GAC and Narva haven't had any R1b found in them, but are we able to rule out TRB as an origin for P312?

I have been thinking about this for a while. If P312 is older than we currently thought, then it would reconcile L238's high concentration in Scandinavia. Meaning L238 was born before P312 spilled into Western Europe, possibly placing L238 with U106's migration path, not the rest of P312. Also, could we be seeing a possible reflux of I2 out of Western Europe, moving East while at the same time P312 is moving West, giving us Bell Beaker as a result?

parasar
07-31-2017, 04:04 PM
Does anyone know what happened to the Hungarian R1b that was reported along with the Vucedol sample back in 2015? I know we since have an updated in Olalde that the Vucedol was Z2103.

"Reich is supposed to be testing them further. I hope we see some published results soon."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7057-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe&p=159385&viewfull=1#post159385

rms2
07-31-2017, 04:23 PM
"Reich is supposed to be testing them further. I hope we see some published results soon."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7057-The-genetic-history-of-Ice-Age-Europe&p=159385&viewfull=1#post159385

No sign thus far that they have done anything with KON 6, the Gáta/Wieslburg skeleton, at least not that they have published.

epp
07-31-2017, 08:53 PM
The basics still applied. If steppe people bred with people with no steppe dna, then the steppe dna of their offspring was diluted. If that native non-steppe population was much larger than the invasive steppe population, then the steppe dna was diluted faster and more substantially.
That's just it. If and if ...


The farther south one went, the bigger the population of Neolithic farmers. As a consequence, steppe dna declines as one moves south in Europe.
At the start, R1b Bell Beaker doesn't really look that much further South than R1a Corded Ware.


The fact is that the Neolithic Revolution arrived late in Scandinavia and elsewhere in northern Europe and with fewer southern farmers. The Scandinavian population was smaller, so the invasive steppe people made a greater genetic impact. Same basic story for the rest of northern Europe.
I question the assumption that Yamna would invade Northern Europe in larger numbers if it was not an area that comfortably supported a larger population; but would invade a more Southerly area with richer pickings with a relatively small number of people.


There is no reason to think R1 spread across Europe in some sort of amazingly uniform manner.
Of course there isn't. Who said anything about there being amazing uniformity? Rather than react to what is posted in a measured manner, you always seem to want to twist and exaggerate it, which makes it look as if you are just working to an agenda and are not really considering anything objectively.

It is interesting that just as Iberia, Western Europe, Scandinavia and NW Russia now seem to share R1 lineages, their females seem to share mainly H mtDNA too. It seems the women the 'Steppe people' mixed with were pretty similar across all the areas in which they predominated, regardless of the different autosomal proportions attached their descendants in each region. I'm not sure why that is.

And we still haven't really come to terms with the suggestion that Yamna and Corded Ware might have shared a high proportion of autosomal DNA because their ancestors mixed in the same circles or that they had recent ancestors in common or both, rather than that Corded Ware descended out of Yamna.

rms2
07-31-2017, 09:10 PM
. . .

I question the assumption that Yamna would invade Northern Europe in larger numbers if it was not an area that comfortably supported a larger population; but would invade a more Southerly area with richer pickings with a relatively small number of people.

You're missing the point, which is so simple it makes one wonder if you are missing it willfully. No point repeating it.



Of course there isn't. Who said anything about there being amazing uniformity? Rather than react to what is posted in a measured manner, you always seem to want to twist and exaggerate it . . .

I did not twist or exaggerate anything. Here's what you wrote in Post #892 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=267179&viewfull=1#post267179) of this thread:



But R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions.

Spreading "across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions" would amount to amazing uniformity.

Jean M
07-31-2017, 10:16 PM
I question the assumption that Yamna would invade Northern Europe in larger numbers if it was not an area that comfortably supported a larger population; but would invade a more Southerly area with richer pickings with a relatively small number of people.

I doubt if they had any idea of invasion of Iberia or Italy. It was more like the California Gold Rush. The Bell Beaker people settled in patches across Europe, generally concentrated around sources of minerals.

It just so happened that in Britain and Ireland they not only hit lucky in gold, copper and tin, but also found a diminished population which had dropped as arable farming failed. The Bell Beaker people could use the freed land for pasture. They brought with them the advantages of the Secondary Products Revolution, which produced greater yield for less effort. In short they could compete more than effectively with the locals when it came to food production, so they would outbreed them. And clearly did.

epp
07-31-2017, 10:22 PM
Epp, can you give more details about your calculations and what they show, to go toward understanding why you think M269 is from Balkans, and P312 from Western Europe, or what have you. Perhaps a summary of findings of the major Clades.
I don't really know why I bother, as most would only want to see this to look for ammunition they can use to shoot at me with, but here are some of the most thread-relevant 'most likely' estimates obtained from analysing the samples on the FTDNA database - that is not to say how likely, merely most likely given the data per se. Bear in mind that these estimates may change constantly, every time new samples are added to the database. Also, the greater the sample size and the more consistent the results of related tests, the more confidence there will be in the estimate, and vice versa. For these reasons, for instance, I am significantly more confident in the P312 estimates than in the L51 estimates.

The 'most likely estimates:
P312 - ancestor clades M269, L23, L51, L151 all c. 4,800 BC branching points Serbia, L51 & L151 4,800 BC MRCA NE France
- brother clades A8039 4,800 BC Netherlands, S1194 3,400 BC NE France, A8051 2,900 BC branching point & MRCA Scotland, U106 2,800 BC NW France
- overall P312 2,900 BC NE France
- subclades - U152 2,900 BC S Germany, DF27 2,800 BC NW France, DF99 2,150 MRCA Britain, L21 1,950 BC Britain, DF19 1,800 BC Britain
CW - M417 6,200 BC branching point & 3,650 BC MRCA N/E Germany/Poland/Czech Republic
- M417 descendants Z283 Poland & Z93 Russia 2,650 BC, Z94 SW Asia 2,500 BC

Significant points as I see them are:
Estimated 4,800 BC branching of surviving M269 from estimated Balkans, 3 L51 lineages look most likely to have stayed together until their major move West, which could have come at any point between estimated 4,800 BC and estimated 3,000 BC, but I would say closer to the former is more plausible by virtue of the fact that the 3 lineages most likely stayed together until the point when they reached W Europe
Estimated 2,900 BC rapid branching of one of the L151 lineages into all of the major L151 subclades and sub-subclades that exist today - the epicentre of this branching looks to be consistently somewhere close to NE France
M417 CW MRCA estimated Southern Baltic, limited development of surviving subclades until estimated 2,650 BC, when they were moving Eastwards

i.e. in relation to the thread, the estimates would have M417 as most likely indigenous to CW, with P312 at its Southern & Western fringes and CW/surviving M417 only really picking up as P312 BB emerges adjacent to them, followed by P312 BB moving Eastwards into CW and R1a CW itself retreating or collapsing Eastwards

epp
07-31-2017, 10:35 PM
You're missing the point, which is so simple it makes one wonder if you are missing it willfully. No point repeating it.



I did not twist or exaggerate anything. Here's what you wrote in Post #892 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=267179&viewfull=1#post267179) of this thread:



Spreading "across the whole of Europe in roughly similar proportions" would amount to amazing uniformity.
When things are of a 'roughly similar proportion', that certainly doesn't sound awesome and exciting enough to me to be described as 'amazing uniformity', but I don't talk big all the time.

epp
07-31-2017, 10:40 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while. If P312 is older than we currently thought, then it would reconcile L238's high concentration in Scandinavia. Meaning L238 was born before P312 spilled into Western Europe, possibly placing L238 with U106's migration path, not the rest of P312. Also, could we be seeing a possible reflux of I2 out of Western Europe, moving East while at the same time P312 is moving West, giving us Bell Beaker as a result?
Yes, interesting. There are several examples in DNA appearing to indicate that haplogroups cross paths or exchange homelands, although I think it is generally more plausible to believe that A approached B from a different route than that used by B to retreat from A.

rms2
07-31-2017, 10:41 PM
When things are of a 'roughly similar proportion', that certainly doesn't sound awesome and exciting enough to me to be described as 'amazing uniformity', but I don't talk big all the time.

I think it's the "But R1 lineages spread across the whole of Europe" part that takes the "in roughly similar proportions" part into the amazing category.

It's really not a big deal. We all make mistakes.

rms2
07-31-2017, 10:57 PM
I don't really know why I bother, as most would only want to see this to look for ammunition they can use to shoot at me with, but here are some of the most thread-relevant 'most likely' estimates obtained from analysing the samples on the FTDNA database - that is not to say how likely, merely most likely given the data per se. Bear in mind that these estimates may change constantly, every time new samples are added to the database. Also, the greater the sample size and the more consistent the results of related tests, the more confidence there will be in the estimate, and vice versa. For these reasons, for instance, I am significantly more confident in the P312 estimates than in the L51 estimates.

The 'most likely estimates:
P312 - ancestor clades M269, L23, L51, L151 all c. 4,800 BC branching points Serbia, L51 & L151 4,800 BC MRCA NE France
- brother clades A8039 4,800 BC Netherlands, S1194 3,400 BC NE France, A8051 2,900 BC branching point & MRCA Scotland, U106 2,800 BC NW France
- overall P312 2,900 BC NE France
- subclades - U152 2,900 BC S Germany, DF27 2,800 BC NW France, DF99 2,150 MRCA Britain, L21 1,950 BC Britain, DF19 1,800 BC Britain
CW - M417 6,200 BC branching point & 3,650 BC MRCA N/E Germany/Poland/Czech Republic
- M417 descendants Z283 Poland & Z93 Russia 2,650 BC, Z94 SW Asia 2,500 BC

Significant points as I see them are:
Estimated 4,800 BC branching of surviving M269 from estimated Balkans, 3 L51 lineages look most likely to have stayed together until their major move West, which could have come at any point between estimated 4,800 BC and estimated 3,000 BC, but I would say closer to the former is more plausible by virtue of the fact that the 3 lineages most likely stayed together until the point when they reached W Europe
Estimated 2,900 BC rapid branching of one of the L151 lineages into all of the major L151 subclades and sub-subclades that exist today - the epicentre of this branching looks to be consistently somewhere close to NE France
M417 CW MRCA estimated Southern Baltic, limited development of surviving subclades until estimated 2,650 BC, when they were moving Eastwards

i.e. in relation to the thread, the estimates would have M417 as most likely indigenous to CW, with P312 at its Southern & Western fringes and CW/surviving M417 only really picking up as P312 BB emerges adjacent to them, followed by P312 BB moving Eastwards into CW and R1a CW itself retreating or collapsing Eastwards

Not to try to shoot at you, but how do you square all that with ancient y-dna results and what we know from archaeology of the advent of the Indo-Europeans?

For example, your estimate for L21 is that it arose in Britain around 1950 BC, yet we have DF13 results (one step downstream of L21) in British Bell Beaker that predate that.

You said you think L51 is Indo-European, but what Indo-Europeans were in NE France around 4800 BC? In fact, there was probably no Proto-Indo-European that early, even on the steppe.

epp
07-31-2017, 11:00 PM
I doubt if they had any idea of invasion of Iberia or Italy. It was more like the California Gold Rush. The Bell Beaker people settled in patches across Europe, generally concentrated around sources of minerals.

It just so happened that in Britain and Ireland they not only hit lucky in gold, copper and tin, but also found a diminished population which had dropped as arable farming failed. The Bell Beaker people could use the freed land for pasture. They brought with them the advantages of the Secondary Products Revolution, which produced greater yield for less effort. In short they could compete more than effectively with the locals when it came to food production, so they would outbreed them. And clearly did.
I used the word invade solely because I was replying to a poster who used the word invasive.
The question here is really where Bell Beaker (specifically P312 BB) originated and whether its origins were linked to Corded Ware. P312 BB's medium term ancestors appear either to have not been very successful or were initially successful before being almost wiped out. I wonder what caused the change? Was it contact with Corded Ware? Was it just an exceptionally strong P312 dominating the competition? Was it discovering or controlling an important mineral? My research consistently comes back to North Eastern France - do you know would there have been any specific mineral attractions around there? And was it you who once mentioned an early copper facility in Serbia? I wonder whether this might have been an incubator for M269?

Dewsloth
07-31-2017, 11:01 PM
I don't really know why I bother, as most would only want to see this to look for ammunition they can use to shoot at me with, but here are some of the most thread-relevant 'most likely' estimates obtained from analysing the samples on the FTDNA database - that is not to say how likely, merely most likely given the data per se. Bear in mind that these estimates may change constantly, every time new samples are added to the database. Also, the greater the sample size and the more consistent the results of related tests, the more confidence there will be in the estimate, and vice versa. For these reasons, for instance, I am significantly more confident in the P312 estimates than in the L51 estimates.

The 'most likely estimates:
P312 - ancestor clades M269, L23, L51, L151 all c. 4,800 BC branching points Serbia, L51 & L151 4,800 BC MRCA NE France
- brother clades A8039 4,800 BC Netherlands, S1194 3,400 BC NE France, A8051 2,900 BC branching point & MRCA Scotland, U106 2,800 BC NW France
- overall P312 2,900 BC NE France
- subclades - U152 2,900 BC S Germany, DF27 2,800 BC NW France, DF99 2,150 MRCA Britain, L21 1,950 BC Britain, DF19 1,800 BC Britain


What in your calculations (or the FTDNA groups' results) is it that points to DF19 being centuries "younger" than other major P312 subclades?

epp
07-31-2017, 11:19 PM
Not to try to shoot at you, but how do you square all that with ancient y-dna results and what we know from archaeology of the advent of the Indo-Europeans?
I don't, and am hoping someone else might.


For example, your estimate for L21 is that it arose in Britain around 1950 BC, yet we have DF13 results (one step downstream of L21) in British Bell Beaker that predate that.As I say, it's just the estimate that the calculator throws up. From memory, I think the L21 readings were one of the most varied/least consistent of the P312 subclades.


You said you think L51 is Indo-European, but what Indo-Europeans were in NE France around 4800 BC? In fact, there was probably no Proto-Indo-European that early, even on the steppe.I think they were most likely in the Balkans around 4,800 BC. My guess for NE France is perhaps 4,000 BC, but quite confidently no later than 3,000 BC.
Was there ever really a pure proto-IE from which all IE languages emerged? I doubt it. All of the early IE-type languages probably diverged and converged constantly, and incorporated elements from other language groups. I would guess that the nearest thing to a true most recent proto-IE might have been spoken somewhere in or near to the Balkans around 4,800 BC, and it looks wholly R1b to me, but as I say, this is just a guess.

epp
07-31-2017, 11:26 PM
What in your calculations (or the FTDNA groups' results) is it that points to DF19 being centuries "younger" than other major P312 subclades?
The relative similarity between the inter-SNP STR readings for a few of the major P312 subclades, which is also consistent with a common and fairly unique point of geographical origin being estimated for them.

rms2
07-31-2017, 11:29 PM
. . .

I think they were most likely in the Balkans around 4,800 BC. My guess for NE France is perhaps 4,000 BC, but quite confidently no later than 3,000 BC.
Was there ever really a pure proto-IE from which all IE languages emerged? I doubt it. All of the early IE-type languages probably diverged and converged constantly, and incorporated elements from other language groups. I would guess that the nearest thing to a true most recent proto-IE might have been spoken somewhere in or near to the Balkans around 4,800 BC, and it looks wholly R1b to me, but as I say, this is just a guess.

A proto language is the mrca of a set of attested daughter languages, the common language spoken by a group of people right before it begins to break up into its daughter languages. It's a hypothetical construct.

So, as I understand it, you are using your own calculation of modern variance to argue for a Balkan PIE Urheimat and an early date of 4800 BC for PIE. You place L51 in NE France sometime between 4,000 BC and 3,000 BC, long before any peoples believed to be Indo-Europeans arrived there.

There are all sorts of problems with all that. I want to try to climb down off your back, so I'll leave it at that and leave the back climbing to others.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 12:06 AM
The question here is really where Bell Beaker (specifically P312 BB ) originated and whether its origins were linked to Corded Ware.

I thought people had wandered off the topic in the thread heading. That is why I joined in. Since P312 is the progenitor of the subclades of R1b found most densely over the regions settled by Bell Beaker, in my view it takes a real craving for debate to propose that P312 arose in CW. So I've left people to enjoy themselves without my horribly dampening influence. :biggrin1:

Gravetto-Danubian
08-01-2017, 12:46 AM
Yes thanks for everyone's interesting incites
I have slid back to the Yamnaya Hungary camp because of the problematic dating with Dutch material
But one thing that troubles me is burial postures: in Hungary it's ectended inhumation, like in Bulgaria . BB is side-crouched like in CWC, and certain of the pre-Yamnaya Eneolithic subgroups

rms2
08-01-2017, 01:04 AM
Yes thanks for everyone's interesting incites
I have slid back to the Yamnaya Hungary camp because of the problematic dating with Dutch material
But one thing that troubles me is burial postures: in Hungary it's ectended inhumation, like in Bulgaria . BB is side-crouched like in CWC, and certain of the pre-Yamnaya Eneolithic subgroups

Klejn mentions that in his critique (http://sci-hub.cc/saveme/b03a/[email protected]) (page 11):



The cultural affinities of barrow burials in the Danube basin

I have read the outstanding archaeological works by Volker Heyd with great interest. In a recent work in co-authorship with Frı̑nculeasa and Preda (Frı̑nculeasa et al., 2015) he summarizes the results of many years’ excavations of barrows in the basin of the Danube. The results are extremely important. The early date of some burials on the steppe (last third of the fourth millennium BC) is substantiated. Yet Heyd and his co-authors have shown that these early barrow burials (as distinct from those of the third millennium, similar in some ways to Yamnaya burials) are significantly different: pit graves are not rectangular but oval, skeletons are not on their backs with bent legs but curled up on their sides or supine, ochre is scanty, and ceramics are not round-bottomed (as on the Dnieper or Don) but are of Balkan type. By contemporary Russian standards, this must be characterized as another, separate culture, not Yamnaya. Among Eneolithic steppe cultures classified by Rassamakin and Kotova in the Ukraine, some are very similar to the Lower Danube cultures (Lower Mikhailovka, Kvityana): barrows, oval pit graves, skeletons supine or lying curled on their sides, and cromlechs. The culture in question was one of these, and its possible connection with Yamnaya (kurgan, what else?) is too limited.

Of course, Gimbutas spoke of three kurgan waves, with Yamnaya being Wave III, the final one. These older kurgans in the Danube Basin mentioned by Klejn would have belonged to Gimbutas' waves I and II, like this skeleton in Hungary from a Wave I kurgan (4400-4200 BC). Looks like he was buried on his back with his knees raised, however.

17845

MitchellSince1893
08-01-2017, 01:23 AM
A bit early in the morning so not very awake.... but I recall R1b was found in Narva culture - see:
Jones et al 2017 The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early European Farmers

Also if I recall correctly Genetiker found they were ancestral M73 so a possible Narva link to M269>P312 seems to have been written off by most people (no CHG etc). (Of course a couple of samples does not preclude the possibility that M269 line was also present in the Narva culture and as R1b was not found in later samples - possibly moved SE out of the area to pick up Steppe admixture???)...

Here it is Thanks

Further, the Y chromosomes of two of our Latvian Mesolithic samples were assigned to haplogroup R1b (the maximum-likelihood sub-haplogroup is R1b1b), which is the most common haplogroup found in modern Western Europeans [36]. This haplogroup has been found at low frequencies before the Late Neolithic in Western Europe [1, 35] but at higher frequencies in Russia and is suggested to have spread into Europe from the East after 5,000 cal BP [1]. The presence of this haplogroup in Mesolithic Latvia points to a more westward ancestral range

On the ancient dna map there is 3 R1b samples in Latvia

1. Latvia_MN1=I4627 4200-3900 BC;: Y-DNA: R1b1a1a(xR1b1a1a2) Negative for M269, so that wouldn't be "the most common haplogroup found in modern Western Europeans"

2. I4630 is also Y-DNA: R1b1a1a(xR1b1a1a2) Negative for M269, 7465-7078 calBCE

3. Latvia_HG2, Narva,Y-DNA: R1b1b 5800-5600 BC

Also an R1b
UzOO77, Karelia HG, Russian Mesolithic, 6850-5000 BC

rms2
08-01-2017, 01:41 AM
From Klejn's critique, page 11, again:



Among Eneolithic steppe cultures classified by Rassamakin and Kotova in the Ukraine, some are very similar to the Lower Danube cultures (Lower Mikhailovka, Kvityana): barrows, oval pit graves, skeletons supine or lying curled on their sides, and cromlechs.

The map on page 267 of Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language shows Mikhailovka I as one of the five cultures of the Pontic-Caspian Eneolithic prior to the formation of Yamnaya. It was the westernmost one, right along the NW shore of the Black Sea, including most of Crimea, and coming very near the Danube delta. I would scan the map and post it, but my scanner isn't working.

This is from Anthony's book, pages 269-271:



Mikhailovka I kurgans were distributed from the lower Dnieper westward to the Danube delta and south to the Crimean peninsula, north and northwest of the Black Sea. Near the Danube they were interspersed with cemeteries that contained Danubian Cernavoda I-III ceramics. Most Mikhailovka I kurgans were low mounds of black earth covered by a layer of clay, surrounded by a ditch and a stone cromlech, often with an opening on the southwest side. The graves frequently were in cists lined with stone slabs. The body could be in an extended supine position or contracted on the side or supine with raised knees, although the most common pose was contracted on the side. Occasionally (e.g., Olaneshti, k. 2, gr. 1, on the lower Dniester) the grave was covered by a stone anthropomorphic stela - a large stone slab carved at the top into the shape of a head projecting above rounded shoulders (see figure 13.11). This was the beginning of a long and important North Pontic tradition of decorating some graves with carved stone stelae.

Anthony says Mikhailovka I was replaced by Usatovo after 3300 BC but that Usatovo retained some Mikhailovka I customs, including stone cromlechs.

rms2
08-01-2017, 02:01 AM
Here is something else I had almost forgotten but had mentioned before, from page 271 of Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:



The skulls and faces of some Mikhailovka I people were delicate and narrow. The skeletal anthropologist Ina Potekhina established that another North Pontic culture, the Post-Mariupol culture, looked most like the old wide-faced Suvorovo-Novodanilovka population. The Mikhailovka I people, who lived in the westernmost steppes closest to the Tripolye culture and to the lower Danube valley, seem to have intermarried more with people from Tripolye towns or people whose ancestors had lived in Danubian tells.

This tends to show that it is likely that the people of the western steppe were not the same as the eastern steppe Yamnaya people currently being used as the steppe dna standard but were already shifted somewhat to the EEF side.

rms2
08-01-2017, 02:18 AM
Of course, I think Klejn is too exacting and that it is likely the Yamnaya horizon included all the burial variations of the prior steppe cultures that contributed to it, like Mikhailovka I.

The Mikhailovka I burial customs certainly do sound a lot like Bell Beaker, however.

I know I have posted this before, but it is interesting how this Mikhailovka I brazier from around 3500 BC looks like a prototype of some of the later Begleitkeramik of the Carpathian Basin.

17847 17848

17849

MitchellSince1893
08-01-2017, 03:40 AM
About Mikhailovka I
The Mikhaylovka culture (3600—3000 BCE)[1][2] is an early Yamna site of the late copper age of the lower Dnieper River, noted for its fortifications.[1][2]. Mikhaylovka I (3600-3400 BCE)[2] had connections to the west,[2] and is related to the Kemi Oba culture (3700-2200 BCE) at the Bug-Dniepr area and the Crime, and seems to have had connections to the Maykop culture (3700-3000 BCE).[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhaylovka_culture

When I looked up Kemi Oba

Kemi Oba culture, ca. 3700—2200 BC, an archaeological culture at the northwest face of the Sea of Azov, the lower Bug and Dnieper Rivers and the Crimea. According to Mallory, this was a component of the larger Yamna horizon,[1] while Anthony regards it to be a separate culture,[2] which was replaced by a late Yamna variant after 2800 BCE.[3]

This is the same area as the arrow heads mentioned here
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266027&viewfull=1#post266027



Gimbutas argues that [GAC], which marks a shift to increasing pastoraorlism, and less permanent settlement, derives ultimately from influences from the Maykop and Lower Mikhaylovka cultures
https://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA359&lpg=PA359&dq=Mikhaylovka+culture&source=bl&ots=wXjZ05498D&sig=h8aKRf4IngktjK2uFNJ36C0oxJU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv6M3PlbXVAhUC2D4KHbwXDVIQ6AEIWjAG#v=on epage&q=Mikhaylovka%20culture&f=false

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5d/68/ca/5d68ca05a400b43cd630e96766e2e9ef.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ae/f3/d6/aef3d67971521e50a13781f461784330.png

Gravetto-Danubian
08-01-2017, 12:04 PM
If I recall correctly Gravetto Danubian did some admixture modelling that gave Latvian hunter gatherer as a best fit input match for Bell Beaker.

Things have moved on with Olalde, Mathieson etc since then and with Olalde GAC/TRB like possible input to BB.

.

Davidski has just put up some of data from Rathlin & BA Portugal, so I had another look (but we still don;t have the main bulk of data from Olalde, Lipson & Mathieson).
Having a glance, using a weighted modification of the above the data (c/o Alberto):

Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0
..


^ 15% steppe admixture by MBA in Portugal. But in reality, the population shift in Iberia could be much higher (~ 40%).


Ireland_MN
"Iberia_MN" 87.8
"Loschbour:Loschbour" 12.2
"Yamnaya_Samara" 0
"Baalberge_MN" 0


Ireland_EBA
"Greece_LN" 36
"Yamnaya_Samara" 33.3
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 21.15
"Karelia_HG:I0061" 9.55
"Baalberge_MN" 0

Bell_Beaker_Germany
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 28.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 24.45
"Greece_LN" 16.05
"Remedello_BA:RISE489" 10.05
"Kotias:KK1" 6.7
"Baalberge_MN" 6.6
"Armenia_EBA" 5.5
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 2


^ Expected pretty significant difference between Ballynahatty & Rathlin. Irish EBA and Germany BB ? have a common ancestor back in the Pontic steppe.
Irish MN very similar to Iberian MN.

For Comparison _ CWC Germany:

Corded_Ware_Germany
"Yamnaya_Samara" 57.8
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 20.15
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 17.35
"Kotias:KK1" 3.75
"Karelia_HG:I0061" 0.6

? slightly different paths for CWC & BB

I guess they make sense, but they;d be a little different if unweighted. Not sure which is correct . let's see what more formal methods show.

rms2
08-01-2017, 12:59 PM
About Mikhailovka I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhaylovka_culture

When I looked up Kemi Oba


This is the same area as the arrow heads mentioned here
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=266027&viewfull=1#post266027



https://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA359&lpg=PA359&dq=Mikhaylovka+culture&source=bl&ots=wXjZ05498D&sig=h8aKRf4IngktjK2uFNJ36C0oxJU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiv6M3PlbXVAhUC2D4KHbwXDVIQ6AEIWjAG#v=on epage&q=Mikhaylovka%20culture&f=false

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5d/68/ca/5d68ca05a400b43cd630e96766e2e9ef.png

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ae/f3/d6/aef3d67971521e50a13781f461784330.png

Mikhailovka and its offshoot Kemi Oba had burial customs that are repeated in Bell Beaker: crouched burial posture in a stone or wood lined cist under a mound surrounded by a ditch and a stone cromlech, use of anthropomorphic stelae.

We need a "big steppe behemoth" paper that sweeps the Pontic steppe, Lower Danube, and Carpathian Basin with hundreds of samples.

ADW_1981
08-01-2017, 01:51 PM
Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0


It looks like the BA Portugese arrived from central-eastern Germany and already had some Yamnaya input.

rms2
08-01-2017, 02:03 PM
Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0


It looks like the BA Portugese arrived from central-eastern Germany and already had some Yamnaya input.

Those BA Portuguese date to the middle of the second millennium BC, so it was probably their ancestors who arrived c. 2500 BC (mid-third millennium BC). It was they who carried the Yamnaya dna, which was much diluted in those BA Portuguese nearly a thousand years later.

ADW_1981
08-01-2017, 02:20 PM
Those BA Portuguese date to the middle of the second millennium BC, so it was probably their ancestors who arrived c. 2500 BC (mid-third millennium BC). It was they who carried the Yamnaya dna, which was much diluted in those BA Portuguese nearly a thousand years later.

I'm aware of that, and I don't want to derail the thread. It's not just diluted though from a local Iberian element, because significant central European type of farmer/hybrid ancestry arrives that wasn't previously in Iberia. The admixture event happened with a TRB group and then moved to Iberia. It's probably a very complex story that doesn't necessarily line up with the P312+ men who moved into Britian whose ancestry seems a lot more clear, and they just happen to have a similar Y signature.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 02:26 PM
I'm aware of that, and I don't want to derail the thread. It's not just diluted though from a local Iberian element, because significant central European type of farmer/hybrid ancestry arrives that wasn't previously in Iberia. The admixture event happened with a TRB group and then moved to Iberia.

TRB? Why them? What's wrong with a mixture that we can actually show happening archaeologically, i.e. that of Yamnaya and Cucuteni. We can expect the latter to be similar to the TRB, which has a lot of Cucuteni contacts in its late stage. It was probably Balkan farmer flow north that created the TRB start off with, rather than a simple descent from the LBK, which was a failed culture in the end.

rms2
08-01-2017, 02:51 PM
TRB? Why them? What's wrong with a mixture that we can actually show happening archaeologically, i.e. that of Yamnaya and Cucuteni. We can expect the latter to be similar to the TRB, which has a lot of Cucuteni contacts in its late stage. It was probably Balkan farmer flow north that created the TRB start off with, rather than a simple descent from the LBK, which was a failed culture in the end.

Olalde et al said the best fit for the Neolithic farmer element in non-Iberian Bell Beaker is a combination of GAC and TRB (specifically, Swedish TRB ). That is one of the reasons for seeing Corded Ware as the possible source of the P312 in Bell Beaker.

I think you're probably right though, and autosomal machinations have to be viewed cautiously, IMHO.

The farmer element in BB could be a combination of things. As I mentioned a few posts back (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312&p=267641&viewfull=1#post267641), western steppe people were likely already shifted toward the EEF side through centuries of living cheek-by-jowl next to Cucuteni-Tripolye people and other Neolithic farmers. That would help explain why Bell Beaker tends to have a bit less eastern Yamnaya dna than Corded Ware: different steppe source populations.

MitchellSince1893
08-01-2017, 02:56 PM
TRB? Why them? What's wrong with a mixture that we can actually show happening archaeologically, i.e. that of Yamnaya and Cucuteni. We can expect the latter to be similar to the TRB, which has a lot of Cucuteni contacts in its late stage. It was probably Balkan farmer flow north that created the TRB start off with, rather than a simple descent from the LBK, which was a failed culture in the end.

Is it a given that TRB and GAC (as mentioned in Olade paper) are genetically similar to Cucuteni? I'm not questioning your knowledge but rather wish to be enlightened.

rms2
08-01-2017, 03:00 PM
Is it a given that TRB and GAC (as mentioned in Olade paper) are genetically similar to Cucuteni? I'm not questioning your knowledge but rather wish to be enlightened.

I don't know, but I would bet GAC is. If it is, then it is likely TRB is, as well.

There was considerable overlap with CT in the southeastern ranges of GAC and TRB. CT came first, then TRB, and then GAC.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 03:07 PM
Is it a given that TRB and GAC... are genetically similar to Cucuteni?

I don't think we know from aDNA. I'm just talking about the archaeology. GAC pretty obviously arrived from the Balkans. I argued in AJ that the TRB did.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 03:14 PM
Extract from AJ:


The TRB was once seen as the result of local foragers adopting animal husbandry and new technology from their neighbours. This idea has been overturned by studies of ancient DNA. The Funnel Beaker peoples mainly carried mtDNA haplogroups typical of early farmers. Evidently migration spread this new way of life. Copper axes and luxury wares from the Hungary-Serbia region travelled over 1000 km (620 miles) to the Baltic shore in the early 4th millennium BC. Another link lies in the Funnel Beaker pottery itself. Its decorative patterns were picked out with a paste made of bone. This technique originated in the Carpathian Basin. So the TRB may have been the result of farmers fleeing stricken settlements in the Balkans and Carpathian Basin for the milder climate of Northern Europe in this era. Later innovations such as wheeled vehicles, the plough and wool spinning seem to have fed into Funnel Beaker from its advanced southern neighbour, the Late Cucuteni-Tripolye culture

Extract from the forthcoming book:


South of Jutland, between the Elbe and the Vistula, the Globular Amphora culture, named for its characteristic pots, acted as another chronological bridge between Funnel Beaker and Corded Ware. DNA samples from the people of this stock-breeding culture show no steppe component. They appear typical of the European Neolithic. Yet the culture draws some traits from the steppe, such as a preference for single graves. Like the 'stone heap graves' in Jutland, a Globular Amphora grave could contain a human burial in one section and a pair on oxen in an adjoining section. So Yamnaya penetration northwards could have followed existing trade or migration routes.

rms2
08-01-2017, 03:16 PM
Here's how Gimbutas described the physical characteristics of Cucuteni-Tripolye people, on page 34 of her book, The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe:



[A] medley of the indigenous inhabitants and infiltrating Mediterraneans.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 03:49 PM
Here's how Gimbutas described the physical characteristics of Cucuteni-Tripolye people, on page 34 of her book, The Gods and Goddesses of Old Europe:

I'm presuming Anatolian Neolithic types with a preponderance of Y-DNA I2. But we have to wait and see, I suppose.

rms2
08-01-2017, 03:52 PM
I'm presuming Anatolian Neolithic types with a preponderance of Y-DNA I2 . . .

That would be my guess, as well.

ADW_1981
08-01-2017, 04:38 PM
TRB? Why them? What's wrong with a mixture that we can actually show happening archaeologically, i.e. that of Yamnaya and Cucuteni. We can expect the latter to be similar to the TRB, which has a lot of Cucuteni contacts in its late stage. It was probably Balkan farmer flow north that created the TRB start off with, rather than a simple descent from the LBK, which was a failed culture in the end.

I don't think there is a Cucuteni reference in there, so we can't say for sure. At least it's clear that a new population offset the Atlantic_Neolithic factor, there is a clear signal of eastern input.

R.Rocca
08-01-2017, 06:15 PM
I'm presuming Anatolian Neolithic types with a preponderance of Y-DNA I2. But we have to wait and see, I suppose.

Four of five Trypillia Culture males resolved to G2a and one to haplogroup E, so a preponderance of Anatolian Y-haplogroup G2a, not I2. Haplogroup I2 seems to come into Middle Neolithic groups from WHG areas as they have a much much stronger WHG component that the Early Neolithic G2a men have very little of. Six of eight Globular Amphora Culture males resolved to hapologroup I2 and the other two were too low of quality to resolve past CT. So, the GAC were dominated by WHG heavy male lineages, not EEF lineages. They also have much higher WHG than Trypillia.

Jean M
08-01-2017, 06:40 PM
Four of five Trypillia Culture males resolved to G2a and one to haplogroup E

Oh yes that's right. We have some genomes from Verteba Cave. Mathieson 2017.


Haplogroup I2 seems to come into Middle Neolithic groups from WHG areas as they have a much much stronger WHG component that the Early Neolithic

I'm not sure that this generalisation is safe. I2 seems to have been caught up in the Neolithic quite early. The assumption that it is all coming from hunter-gatherers absorbed in the Middle Neolithic seems unsound. It depends what type of I2:


I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.

I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary, and Portugal.

R.Rocca
08-01-2017, 07:38 PM
Oh yes that's right. We have some genomes from Verteba Cave. Mathieson 2017.

I'm not sure that this generalisation is safe. I2 seems to have been caught up in the Neolithic quite early. The assumption that it is all coming from hunter-gatherers absorbed in the Middle Neolithic seems unsound. It depends what type of I2:

But the GAC samples are all I2a2, which is found in all areas where WHG makes a comeback during the Middle Neolithic..

Jean M
08-01-2017, 09:01 PM
But the GAC samples are all I2a2, which is found in all areas where WHG makes a comeback during the Middle Neolithic..

We have to be more specific, if we hope to trace movement. Here's the I2a2 section of my notes on I:


I2a2 (M436/P214/PF3856/S33) has been found in Mesolithic Ukraine 6500-4000 BCE. It also appears in Neolithic Britain at Banbury Lane, Northampton.
I2a2a (M223) has been found at Falkensteiner Höhle in Mesolithic Germany. There are other samples in Mesolithic Ukraine, and the Mesolithic Iron Gates.
I2a2a1 (CTS616) has been found in Neolithic Britain at Banbury Lane, Northampton.
I2a2a1a (M284) seems to have arisen in Britain, where it is most common. It is very rare in Continental Europe, where the highest frequency is found in Portugal, Britain's oldest ally. ...
I2a2a1a1a (L1195) was found in Distillery Cave, Oban, Argyll and Bute in the Neolithic, and a Bell Beaker male buried at Windmill Fields, Ingleby Barwick (Stockton-on-Tees, County Durham).
I2a2a1a1a1 (L126/S165) was found in a Middle Bronze Age burial on the small island of Pabay Mor, off the coast of the Isle of Lewis, Western Isles. Today it is most common in Scotland and those of Scots ancestry.
I2a2a1b (CTS10057, CTS10100) found a hunter-gatherer of the pottery-making Kunda culture in Latvia. Also found in an individual genetically EHG at Dereivka, largest known cemetery of the Mariupol type in Ukraine, according to the supp info for the genetic study. Anthony classes it Sredny Stog culture and Eneolithic (Copper Age). Mallory also classes it as Sredny Stog culture, but says that the cemetery has burials from two cultures: the Dnieper-Donets and Sredny Stog. The site contains a mixture of Y-DNA haplogroups, including R1b and R1a. The haplogroup is also found in an individual genetically mainly EEF, but with bits of WHG, EHG and Samara Yamnaya, in a Copper Age tell at Smyadovo in Bulgaria. (Not the Cucuteni region), and in the Globular Amphora Culture in Ukraine, and Poland.
I2a2a1b1 (L701, L702) found in an individual genetically about ľ EHG and the rest WHG in a pottery-making hunter-gatherer culture site in Ukraine. The haplogroup also appears in a Copper Age tell at Smyadovo in Bulgaria.
I2a2a1b1b (L699) This haplogroup appears in Mesolithic Ukraine at Vovnigi 5473-5326 calBCE, classified as part of the Azov-Dnepr Neolithic Culture, but Neolithic here refers only to pottery use. Later this haplogroup appears in the Yamnaya extension up the Danube in Bulgaria 3012-2900 calBCE, in an individual genetically a mixture of EEF, EHG, and Samara Yamnaya. Another example (I2a2a1b1b2 according to Malyshev) appears a Late Yamnaya or Catacomb man who was buried at Ulan IV, kurgan 4, in Russia, between 2849 and 2146 BC.
I2a2a1b2 (Z161) found among the Iron Gates Mesolithic fishermen in Serbia, and later at a Megalithic site in Spain dating to 3900-3600 BC, and in the Globular Amphora culture in Ukraine.
I2a2b (L38/S154) appears alongside R1a1a in Bronze Age skeletons found in Lichtenstein cave, in Lower Saxony, and so could have migrated up the river Dniester and around the Carpathians into present-day Germany with Indo-Europeans. The present-day distributions of I2a2b and R1b-L21 both flow along the Rhine and into the British Isles, and so probably reflect the movements of the Celts.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-02-2017, 12:44 AM
Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0


It looks like the BA Portugese arrived from central-eastern Germany and already had some Yamnaya input.

Yes i agree. The MBA arrivals would themselves be mixtures of central European middle Neolithics (here proxied by Baalberg) fused with western Yamnaya.
So it can be seen the new arrivals are not only represented by yamnaya, but also a rise in 'Baalberg"


@ RMS-2
Olalde et al said the best fit for the Neolithic farmer element in non-Iberian Bell Beaker is a combination of GAC and TRB (specifically, Swedish TRB ). That is one of the reasons for seeing Corded Ware as the possible source of the P312 in Bell Beaker.

I think you're probably right though, and autosomal machinations have to be viewed cautiously, IMHO.

Yep we don;t have the balkan and GAC genomes yet, ? and I don;t think Oldalde used them in their analysis either IIRC.
So here 'Greek LN' could indeed represent something like C-T, Cotofeni-Usatavo (i.e. north-east Balkan/ Romanian Chalcolithics), but we'd need more specialised anaylis.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-02-2017, 01:06 AM
I2a1a (M26) looks like a clade that sprang from I2a assimilated by farmers, and which moved westward with Impressed Ware. The makers of this pottery seem to have moved by sea along the coast from the Levant around the northern Mediterranean to Iberia and then up the Garonne. If so, then the most likely place for Impressed Ware makers from the Near East to take on board a man carrying I2a would be Western Anatolia. Impressed Ware has been found on the Anatolian coast. I2a1a represents about 37% of the Y-DNA in Sardinia. That suggests a founder effect. There is scant evidence of human life on Sardinia before farming arrived. Sardinian obsidian found outside Sardinia has been taken as proof of its trade by hunter-gatherers, yet little of it can be dated before the Neolithic. The permanent settlement of the island seems to start with farmers making Cardial pottery - a type of Impressed Ware. I2a1a is found in certain other places where Cardial Ware turns up in the archaeological record, such as eastern Spain. It runs at between 3% and 9% in Pyrennean Basques and their French neighbours in Béarn and Chalosse.

I2alal (M26/PF4056). This haplogroup appears in the Copper Age Remedello culture of northern Italy. There is another sample in Chalcolithic Spain from El Mirador, Burgos, and Bell Beaker samples from Hungary, and Portugal:

At present, I am tending to think M26 is a mesolithic lineage which was already west, rather than moving with Cardial farmers; because it has not been found in Balkans or Anatolia (who's 'local forager' lineages seem to be rather R1b-V88, I2a2, I2c, C1a).



South of Jutland, between the Elbe and the Vistula, the Globular Amphora culture, named for its characteristic pots, acted as another chronological bridge between Funnel Beaker and Corded Ware. DNA samples from the people of this stock-breeding culture show no steppe component. They appear typical of the European Neolithic. Yet the culture draws some traits from the steppe, such as a preference for single graves. Like the 'stone heap graves' in Jutland, a Globular Amphora grave could contain a human burial in one section and a pair on oxen in an adjoining section. So Yamnaya penetration northwards could have followed existing trade or migration routes.

Agree, yet in fact, GAC and CWC are almost co-terminous, so it is very interesting that GAC shows no steppe admixture. As predicted by Szmyt - these two groups seem to have wholly avoided each other, and the MNE admixture in CWC could be indeed from C-T, or some other group.
I also would err toward seeing GAC arrive to Kuyavia from Hungary/ Slovakia, given its i2a2 sublade, high WHG and cattle ritual.

Chad Rohlfsen
08-02-2017, 01:21 AM
GAC/TRB rooted in Lengyel, has been proposed. I think it makes sense. Lengyel does keep popping up in many runs.

Could also be TRB/GAC in CW. Early Baltic CW lacked much or any MN ancestry, but not the German and Polish samples. GAC and TRB is all there would be to mix with there.

Jean M
08-02-2017, 07:47 AM
At present, I am tending to think M26 is a mesolithic lineage which was already west, rather than moving with Cardial farmers; because it has not been found in Balkans or Anatolia (who's 'local forager' lineages seem to be rather R1b-V88, I2a2, I2c, C1a).

I2a2 is the parent of I2a2a, which is the parent of I2a2a1. We already have I2a2a1b2 in the Mesolithic of the Iron Gates, Serbia. So it is obvious that I2a2a1 was present in the Balkan Mesolithic.

Then we have KO1 - the hunter-gatherer sucked into an early Neolithic lifestyle in Hungary. He was I2a, with no greater resolution. But I think we can take him as an example of how I2a+ got into the farmer stream.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-02-2017, 07:53 AM
I2a2 is the parent of I2a2a, which is the parent of I2a2a1. We already have I2a2a1b2 in the Mesolithic of the Iron Gates, Serbia.

M26 ("the Sardinian Clade") is I2a1a1
At present we just have it from Remedello, Treilles , Paris Dolmen, a couple of the Iberian MN-CuA

I2a1a generally hovers in Western Europe & Scandinavia; and although a couple have been found in Mesolithic Ukraine and Iron gates.
I2a1a2 has been found in Bichon, Kunda, Ko1 man; etc (ie more widely).

Jean M
08-02-2017, 08:19 AM
M26 ("the Sardinian Clade") is I2a1a1.

Oh yes. My mistake. I'd moved on to I2a2 in my response to R. Rocca. It still does not really work as Mesolithic people by the time of Cardial Ware. Sardinia was settled by farmers and has four founder lineages of M26. Basically it arrives with Cardial Ware and that must have started somewhere to the east, not west.


I2a1a2 has been found in Bichon, Kunda, Ko1

KO1 is I2a1a2? Where is that from?

Gravetto-Danubian
08-02-2017, 08:38 AM
Oh yes. My mistake. I'd moved on to I2a2 in my response to R. Rocca. It still does not really work as Mesolithic people by the time of Cardial Ware. Sardinia was settled by farmers and has four founder lineages of M26. Basically it arrives with Cardial Ware and that must have started somewhere to the east, not west.

Im inclined to disagree, but each to their own, I don't want to take up space on this thread about M26.



KO1 is I2a1a2? Where is that from?
The same source as the others I emailed you about

Jean M
08-02-2017, 09:14 AM
My research consistently comes back to North Eastern France - do you know would there have been any specific mineral attractions around there?

OK - to return to epp's questions. Metal ores are found in mountains. This is an old map and does not include all the tin sources now known (there were some in Anatolia and Cornwall in use early on), but is OK on the early copper I think.

17878

Jean M
08-02-2017, 09:25 AM
And was it you who once mentioned an early copper facility in Serbia?

I certainly mention it in AJ and may well have done so on this forum, but it is very well known and so could have been mentioned here by a number of people. Extracts from AJ:


Even before smelting was invented, people were attracted by the colour and shine of natural copper. From about 10,000 BC copper was worked cold into beads and ornaments in the heartland of the Neolithic where Anatolia meets the Levant. By 8000 BC some within that core area had discovered that heat (annealing) made copper-working easier. Then around 5000 BC smelting and cast-copper objects appeared both east and west of the heartland: at Tal-i Iblis in Iran and Belovode in Serbia. This simultaneous surge of the same technology makes a single locus of invention likely, probably in eastern Turkey, the centre of the range of early smelting....

The first metal to be worked anywhere in Europe was copper. The earliest appearance of the new technology was in the Balkans. Farmers had prospered on the rich, silt soils of the lower Danube basin. Hamlets in what is now Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia grew into solidly-built villages of multi-roomed houses. Rebuilt again and again on the same site, the remains of such villages form a mound or 'tell'. Pottery kilns fired at high temperatures paved the way for metallurgy. Smelted copper tools and ornaments began to circulate around 5000 BC. Gumelniţa is one such site in Romania which has lent its name to a wider culture stretching from the Danube estuary to Thrace. To the north of the Gumelniţa culture was the impressive Cucuteni-Tripolye culture, within present-day Romania, Moldova and Ukraine... It emerged between the Carpathian Mountains and the Middle Dniester around 4800 BC and spread gradually northeast. To the west, in present-day Serbia, the long-lived Vinča settlement stood on the banks of the Danube from around 5500 to 4000 BC. It too gave its name to a wider Balkan culture....

Before these Balkan cultures could evolve into civilizations, the sun went down upon them. A cold period afflicted Europe from 4200 to 3800 BC. Tell settlements in southeastern Europe were abandoned. Balkan metallurgy collapsed. The focus of metal-working in southeast Europe gradually shifted to the north of the Black Sea. ... The only survivor among the rich Balkan cultures was Cucuteni-Tripolye, which adapted its economy....


I wonder whether this might have been an incubator for M269?

It's an idea. I suggest that Balkan metal-workers fled to Sardinia c. 4000 BC bringing metallurgy. Detailed analysis of the Y-DNA of modern Sardinians does indeed suggest an influx around 4000-3500 BC of haplogroups G2a2b (L30), E1b1b1b2 (Z830) and R1b1a2 (M269). [Francalacci 2013]

Jean M
08-02-2017, 09:44 AM
It's an idea.

But perhaps not a really brilliant idea. M269 is more likely I think to have leached from Yamnaya into Cucuteni than the other way around. But we shall see.

ADW_1981
08-02-2017, 01:18 PM
It's an idea. I suggest that Balkan metal-workers fled to Sardinia c. 4000 BC bringing metallurgy. Detailed analysis of the Y-DNA of modern Sardinians does indeed suggest an influx around 4000-3500 BC of haplogroups G2a2b (L30), E1b1b1b2 (Z830) and R1b1a2 (M269). [Francalacci 2013]

I believe the more substantial R1b groups in Sardinia such as P312(xU152) and U152 date to the Bronze Age from the more recent Sardinian papers than the Francalacci 2013 paper you cited. Anyways, I guess my point is that the P312+ men didn't arrive with the former two.

rms2
08-02-2017, 01:39 PM
I'm aware of that, and I don't want to derail the thread. It's not just diluted though from a local Iberian element, because significant central European type of farmer/hybrid ancestry arrives that wasn't previously in Iberia. The admixture event happened with a TRB group and then moved to Iberia. It's probably a very complex story that doesn't necessarily line up with the P312+ men who moved into Britian whose ancestry seems a lot more clear, and they just happen to have a similar Y signature.

I don't want to derail this thread either, but since Gravetto-Danubian brought it back up by responding to your post about BA Portuguese, I thought it appropriate to respond, as well.

Probably those mid-second millennium BC BA Portuguese P312s were the descendants of y-dna ancestors who arrived with Bell Beaker sometime in the mid-third millennium BC. Of course those Bell Beaker ancestors would have arrived with "significant central European type of farmer/hybrid ancestry . . . that wasn't previously in Iberia". We know non-Iberian Bell Beaker had that.

But then we see things in those BA Portuguese that non-Iberian Bell Beaker did not have:



Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0


That's a substantial shot of Iberian_MN that helped to dilute the steppe dna of those BA Portuguese. Their non-Iberian Bell Beaker ancestors would not have had that.

ADW_1981
08-02-2017, 01:46 PM
I don't want to derail this thread either, but since Gravetto-Danubian brought it back up by responding to your post about BA Portuguese, I thought it appropriate to respond, as well.

Probably those mid-second millennium BC BA Portuguese P312s were the descendants of y-dna ancestors who arrived with Bell Beaker sometime in the mid-third millennium BC. Of course those Bell Beaker ancestors would have arrived with "significant central European type of farmer/hybrid ancestry . . . that wasn't previously in Iberia". We know non-Iberian Bell Beaker had that.

But then we see things in those BA Portuguese that non-Iberian Bell Beaker did not have:



That's a substantial shot of Iberian_MN that helped to dilute the steppe dna of those BA Portuguese. Their non-Iberian Bell Beaker ancestors would not have had that.

I can't speak to cultural context, but ...

Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0

I'm not reading the data how you are at all. Rather, the Bronze Age Portugese isn't getting a shot of additional Iberian_MN, it looks like this influence is going down over time, due to eastern immigrants from the Bronze period and later. It could be just the unique ancestry of the 2 samples, but they seems to have different composition from the ones who moved into Britain from eastern Germany. Both groups were P312+, but the southern ones seem to have absorbed different female cohorts.

rms2
08-02-2017, 01:59 PM
I can't speak to cultural context, but ...

Portugal_LN
"Iberia_MN" 75.35
"Baalberge_MN" 12.25
"Greece_LN" 11.75
"Dai" 0.6

Portugal_BA
"Iberia_MN" 36
"Baalberge_MN" 35.35
"Yamnaya_Samara" 11.55
"Greece_LN" 10.55
"Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32" 6.55
"Hungary_CA:I1497" 0

I'm not reading the data how you are at all. Rather, the Bronze Age Portugese isn't getting a shot of additional Iberian_MN, it looks like this influence is going down over time, due to eastern immigrants from the Bronze period and later. It could be just the unique ancestry of the 2 samples, but they seems to have different composition from the ones who moved into Britain from eastern Germany. Both groups were P312+, but the southern ones seem to have absorbed different female cohorts.

Start with non-Iberian Bell Beaker in the mid-third millennium BC, which is probably the source of both the P312 of those BA Portuguese and their Yamnaya dna. Non-Iberian Bell Beaker had no Iberian_MN, but it did have central European farmer ancestry. Where did those BA Portuguese pick up that Iberian_MN if not from the fact that their non-Iberian Bell Beaker ancestors mixed with the local Iberian population?

ADW_1981
08-02-2017, 02:46 PM
Start with non-Iberian Bell Beaker in the mid-third millennium BC, which is probably the source of both the P312 of those BA Portuguese and their Yamnaya dna. Non-Iberian Bell Beaker had no Iberian_MN, but it did have central European farmer ancestry. Where did those BA Portuguese pick up that Iberian_MN if not from the fact that their non-Iberian Bell Beaker ancestors mixed with the local Iberian population?

We're saying the same thing. I was looking at the data from the approach of local continuity, which we see is not the case at all. I'm still curious on the context of the BA Portugese burials. It wouldn't surprise me if they were R1b->DF27->ZZ12 if the data was at high enough resolution.

razyn
08-02-2017, 04:01 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if they were R1b->DF27->ZZ12 if the data was at high enough resolution.

For practical purposes, ZZ12 is the same in today's population as DF27 (xZ195). And by "practical" I mean sorting a project, with a couple thousand contemporary members -- who turn out to be one or the other, when or if they get those things tested. The palindromic site of the ZZ12 mutation (pair) makes it a bit impermanent; there may be a few families here and there (I'm aware of one) that have lost the evidence of it, by a recent back-mutation, at the locus that can be easily read. But that back-mutation didn't happen several thousand years ago. ZZ12 and Z195 did; so ZZ12 may not be as ambiguous in aDNA (if the sample can be sequenced at all) as it sometimes is in modern DNA.

MitchellSince1893
08-02-2017, 06:44 PM
GAC/TRB rooted in Lengyel, has been proposed. I think it makes sense. Lengyel does keep popping up in many runs.

Could also be TRB/GAC in CW. Early Baltic CW lacked much or any MN ancestry, but not the German and Polish samples. GAC and TRB is all there would be to mix with there.

Lengyel area (Middle Danube) for reference

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d9/8b/32/d98b32889bc435b17f9fb198eb923712.png

Olade paper's reference to TRB/GAC
for Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia, ...We obtain a good fit for Globular_Amphora_LN and TRB_Sweden_MN

So if I'm following the thought process, if the ancestors of non Iberian Bell Beaker got their TRB/GAC ish ancestry from the Lengyel culture rather than TRB/GAC proper, then it could potentially eliminate the need for a passage from Yamnaya territory through TRB/GAC territory (North of Carpathian Route) I.e. they took the Danube route into Lengyel territory?

epp
08-02-2017, 08:51 PM
I certainly mention it in AJ and may well have done so on this forum, but it is very well known and so could have been mentioned here by a number of people. Extracts from AJ:
Even before smelting was invented, people were attracted by the colour and shine of natural copper. From about 10,000 BC copper was worked cold into beads and ornaments in the heartland of the Neolithic where Anatolia meets the Levant. By 8000 BC some within that core area had discovered that heat (annealing) made copper-working easier. Then around 5000 BC smelting and cast-copper objects appeared both east and west of the heartland: at Tal-i Iblis in Iran and Belovode in Serbia. This simultaneous surge of the same technology makes a single locus of invention likely, probably in eastern Turkey, the centre of the range of early smelting....

The first metal to be worked anywhere in Europe was copper. The earliest appearance of the new technology was in the Balkans. Farmers had prospered on the rich, silt soils of the lower Danube basin. Hamlets in what is now Bulgaria, Romania and Serbia grew into solidly-built villages of multi-roomed houses. Rebuilt again and again on the same site, the remains of such villages form a mound or 'tell'. Pottery kilns fired at high temperatures paved the way for metallurgy. Smelted copper tools and ornaments began to circulate around 5000 BC. Gumelniţa is one such site in Romania which has lent its name to a wider culture stretching from the Danube estuary to Thrace. To the north of the Gumelniţa culture was the impressive Cucuteni-Tripolye culture, within present-day Romania, Moldova and Ukraine... It emerged between the Carpathian Mountains and the Middle Dniester around 4800 BC and spread gradually northeast. To the west, in present-day Serbia, the long-lived Vinča settlement stood on the banks of the Danube from around 5500 to 4000 BC. It too gave its name to a wider Balkan culture....

Before these Balkan cultures could evolve into civilizations, the sun went down upon them. A cold period afflicted Europe from 4200 to 3800 BC. Tell settlements in southeastern Europe were abandoned. Balkan metallurgy collapsed. The focus of metal-working in southeast Europe gradually shifted to the north of the Black Sea. ... The only survivor among the rich Balkan cultures was Cucuteni-Tripolye, which adapted its economy....

It's an idea. I suggest that Balkan metal-workers fled to Sardinia c. 4000 BC bringing metallurgy. Detailed analysis of the Y-DNA of modern Sardinians does indeed suggest an influx around 4000-3500 BC of haplogroups G2a2b (L30), E1b1b1b2 (Z830) and R1b1a2 (M269). [Francalacci 2013]

So where did the people in the Balkan settlements go when they abandoned a cold Europe around 4000 BC? We are told that some metal-working shifted to North of the Black Sea - perhaps with Z2103? Perhaps some did also shift to a milder Western Europe at around this time - perhaps with some L51?

Do we have any y-dna or indeed mt-DNA from the Cucuteni-Tripolye or even Lengyel?

I notice that Cucuteni's timeframe and pretty much its geographical position corresponds with my estimate for L51 pre-P312, and that it collapsed and disappeared just as L51's bottlenecks started opening up again in West Central Europe.

epp
08-02-2017, 09:01 PM
Also if the Corded Ware found is all R1a, what do we know of its precise SNPs? Was it all M417? And were there any L664 or Z283 or Z93 discovered?

Jean M
08-02-2017, 09:11 PM
So where did the people in the Balkan settlements go when they abandoned a cold Europe around 4000 BC?

My guess is that some of its metal-workers moved to Sardinia, while its farmers went north to create the TRB. The climate issues are complex.


We are told that some metal-working shifted to North of the Black Sea

Balkan metallurgy was not transplanted to north of the Black Sea. A new type of metallurgy arose there, influenced by Maikop in the North Caucasus.


Do we have any y-dna or indeed mt-DNA from the Cucuteni-Tripolye or even Lengyel?

We do have both Y-DNA and mtDNA from Cucuteni-Tripolye (Verteba Cave) and Lengyel. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml They do not include Y-DNA R1b of any type. To be honest it looks a remote chance that Cucuteni-Tripolye will be found to have any L51 prior to the mixture of Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya. As for Lengyel, that is one of the dairy farming cultures that I suspect spread up the Danube in the later Neolithic, carrying a certain amount of Y-DNA I2a, along with other Neolithic-type Y-DNA.

rms2
08-02-2017, 10:11 PM
. . .

Do we have any y-dna or indeed mt-DNA from the Cucuteni-Tripolye or even Lengyel?

On the y-dna side, five ancient CT results: one E and four G2a.



I notice that Cucuteni's timeframe and pretty much its geographical position corresponds with my estimate for L51 pre-P312, and that it collapsed and disappeared just as L51's bottlenecks started opening up again in West Central Europe.

Cucuteni-Tripolye was a Neolithic farmer culture of what Marija Gimbutas called "Old Europe". It's not surprising that thus far the y-dna results from it have been E and G2a.

A stray R1 could pop up in it because some steppe people probably settled among the CT people in that culture's latter stages, but probably CT will be mostly E, G2a, and I2a.

epp
08-02-2017, 10:12 PM
My guess is that some of its metal-workers moved to Sardinia, while its farmers went north to create the TRB. The climate issues are complex.
OK, although if some did move as far West as Sardinia, I can't see that they would have restricted themselves to only that one island.


We do have both Y-DNA and mtDNA from Cucuteni-Tripolye (Verteba Cave) and Lengyel. http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml They do not include Y-DNA R1b of any type. To be honest it looks a remote chance that Cucuteni-Tripolye will be found to have any L51 prior to the mixture of Cucuteni-Tripolye and Yamnaya. As for Lengyel, that is one of the dairy farming cultures that I suspect spread up the Danube in the later Neolithic, carrying a certain amount of Y-DNA I2a, along with other Neolithic-type Y-DNA.
It's quite frustrating that none of these Neolithic R1b samples (from Ukraine, Germany or Spain) have P297 of any kind, long after P297 had arisen; so they were clearly not y-dna ancestors of any of today's M73 or M269. It seems that most archaeological DNA is of little use in telling modern populations about their heritage.

Indeed, P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically, with no L51 pre-P312 apparently being found anywhere from the date of its origin up to the date of P312's origin (a period of somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 years). It could have been anywhere during that time. It seems to me the only real clues to where it sprung from are in modern DNA SNP & STR variances.

Perhaps Corded Ware's R1a heritage yields better clues?

rms2
08-02-2017, 10:22 PM
. . .


It's quite frustrating that none of these Neolithic R1b samples (from Ukraine, Germany or Spain) have P297 of any kind, long after P297 had arisen; so they were clearly not y-dna ancestors of any of today's M73 or M269. It seems that most archaeological DNA is of little use in telling modern populations about their heritage.

Let's wait a bit for the raw data from Mathieson et al 2017.



Indeed, P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically, with no L51 pre-P312 apparently being found anywhere from the date of its origin up to the date of P312's origin (a period of somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 years). It could have been anywhere during that time. It seems to me the only real clues to where it sprung from are in modern DNA SNP & STR variances . . .

What?

Hello! What do you call non-Iberian Bell Beaker R1b-P312 from the 3rd millennium BC, chock full of steppe dna? Chopped liver?

From Marija Gimbutas' book, The Civilization of the Goddess, page 104:



The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan characteristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millennium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction . . .


From the same book, pages 390-391:



The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions.

The specific correspondence between the Yamna, Late Vucedol, and Bell Beaker complexes is visible in burial rites which include grave pits under round barrows, the coexistence of cremation and inhumation rites, and the construction of mortuary houses. (FIGURE 10-38) In armaments we see tanged or riveted triangular daggers made of arsenic copper, spear points of arsenic copper and flint, concave-based or tanged triangular arrowheads of flint, and arrow straighteners. In ornaments there are necklaces of canine teeth, copper tubes, or bird bones; boar tusks; and crescent-shaped pendants resembling breast plates. In solar symbolism we find sun or star motifs excised and white encrusted on the inside of braziers, or incised on bone or amber button-shaped beads. Techniques of ceramic decoration include stamping or gouging in zoned metopes, encrustation with white paste of delicate geometric motifs, zigzags, dashes, nets, lozenges, and dots or circles (a Baden-Kostolac-Vucedol tradition). Certain ceramic forms placed in graves, such as braziers and beakers, are from the Kurgan tradition. The Bell Beaker people, wherever they spread, continued the traditional ceramic art connected with their faith. Only the ritual importance of their uniquely beautiful stereotyped beakers could have motivated their production for hundreds of years in lands far from the homeland. The correspondences linking the Bell Beaker and Yamna with the Vucedol - in armament, costume, funeral rites, beliefs in life after death, and in symbolism - are precisely the most significant and revealing. It is very likely that the Bell Beaker complex is an amalgam of Vucedol and Yamna traditions formed after the incursion of the Yamna people into the milieu of the Vucedol culture, i.e., in the course of 300 to 400 years after 3000-2900 B.C.


From page 401:



4. The warlike and horse-riding Bell Beaker people of the middle and second half of the third millennium B.C., who diffused over western Europe, are likely to have originated from an amalgam of remnants of the Vucedol people with the Yamna colonists (after Wave No. 3) in Yugoslavia and Hungary. Their parent culture is called Vinkovci-Samogyvar. This was the largest and last outmigration, from east-central Europe into western Europe, up to the west Mediterranean and the British Isles, before the onset of a more stable period, and the formation of Bronze Age cultural units.

epp
08-02-2017, 10:37 PM
I've just noticed on yfull that the most basal L51 samples are from Italy and from Brazil (presumably Portuguese heritage). One Italian L51 seems even estimated to have split from all the other L51 3,900 BC. How does that square with the idea that L51 was still stuck in the Steppe until 3,000 BC?

rms2
08-02-2017, 10:46 PM
I've just noticed on yfull that the most basal L51 samples are from Italy and from Brazil (presumably Portuguese heritage). One Italian L51 seems even estimated to have split from all the other L51 3,900 BC. How does that square with the idea that L51 was still stuck in the Steppe until 3,000 BC?

Really? Stick with the ancient dna, man. Back in 2007 we were all about arguing from anecdotes about this or that modern individual's haplotype and supposed national origin . . . because we didn't have anything else.

Now we have a growing list of ancient dna results.

1. No steppe dna or R1b-L23 in western Europe before Bell Beaker (mid-third millennium BC).

2. Once Bell Beaker arrives, so does steppe dna and R1b-L23.

3. Indo-European languages and culture triumph in western Europe, probably beginning with Bell Beaker.

epp
08-02-2017, 10:46 PM
Hello! What do you call non-Iberian Bell Beaker R1b-P312 from the 3rd millennium BC, chock full of steppe dna? Chopped liver?
Well, it's certainly not L51 pre-P312, and it's nowhere near L51's estimated formation date in the 5th millennium BC. I'm beginning to wonder whether all this talk of so-called steppe DNA percentages and kurgans is just to distract from the basic fact that no L51 has been found so far in the early Steppe at all.

Dewsloth
08-02-2017, 10:48 PM
Really? Stick with the ancient dna, man.


Awww. ::deletes 'Out Of Ipanema' theory essay:: :(

epp
08-02-2017, 10:51 PM
Really? Stick with the ancient dna, man. Back in 2007 we were all about arguing from anecdotes about this or that modern individual's haplotype and supposed national origin . . . because we didn't have anything else.

Now we have a growing list of ancient dna results.

1. No steppe dna or R1b-L23 in western Europe before Bell Beaker (mid-third millennium BC).

2. Once Bell Beaker arrives, so does steppe dna and R1b-L23.

3. Indo-European languages and culture triumph in western Europe, probably beginning with Bell Beaker.
1. No L51 in the Steppe either.
3. Oh yes, the "triumph" of the noble Steppe warrior! It's all starting to sound like emotive romantic legend to me.

Dewsloth
08-02-2017, 10:54 PM
3. Oh yes, the "triumph" of the noble Steppe warrior! It's all starting to sound like emotive romantic legend to me.

I don't know about romantic, but we are all communicating in an indo-european language 5,000 years later.

rms2
08-02-2017, 10:58 PM
Well, it's certainly not L51 pre-P312, and it's nowhere near L51's estimated formation date in the 5th millennium BC. I'm beginning to wonder whether all this talk of so-called steppe DNA percentages and kurgans is just to distract from the basic fact that no L51 has been found so far in the early Steppe at all.

Groan.

I have repeatedly pointed out in this thread and elsewhere that we have NO Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe or the Carpathian Basin. We don't have any y-dna from Mikhailovka I or Budzhak.

You do realize the only Yamnaya y-dna we have, with the exception of one I2a from Bulgaria, comes from the Caspian steppe and the Volga-Ural steppe, right? You understand that leaves vast parts of the steppe, especially west of the Don, and thousands upon thousands of kurgans unaccounted for, right?

The Yamnaya y-dna we do have has been predominantly R1b-L23, most of it belonging to L51's brother clade under L23, Z2103. It bears repeating that L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 and close in age.

You said the following:



Indeed, P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically, with no L51 pre-P312 apparently being found anywhere from the date of its origin up to the date of P312's origin (a period of somewhere between 1,500 and 2,000 years). It could have been anywhere during that time. It seems to me the only real clues to where it sprung from are in modern DNA SNP & STR variances.

No offense, but that is ludicrous given all of the non-Iberian Bell Beaker y-dna we have from the mid-third millennium BC.

"P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically"? Seriously?

Bell Beaker is a kurgan culture whose people, especially its R1b-P312 men, are loaded with steppe dna. A number of reputable scholars throughout the years have attributed the spread of Indo-European languages, especially Italo-Celtic, to Bell Beaker. Indo-European languages and culture spread throughout the places R1b-P312 and Bell Beaker spread, many of them places, like Ireland, for example, where R1a and R1b-Z2103 are vanishingly scarce and where Corded Ware never set foot.

Really, the evidence is so obvious and ponderous that one has to be willfully blind not to see it.

Jean M
08-02-2017, 11:14 PM
OK, although if some did move as far West as Sardinia, I can't see that they would have restricted themselves to only that one island.

Yes it is tragic that they were so short-sighted and lacking in ambition as to go straight for an island which had copper ore and which (being an island) had a more temperate climate than the mainland. It is baffling. :biggrin1:

Isidro
08-02-2017, 11:17 PM
I think it's a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic.
The Steppe Warrior is the new Superman of the 21st Century with the difference that the everyone knows Superman is fiction.
Oops, forgot to put the emo :biggrin1:

1. No L51 in the Steppe either.
3. Oh yes, the "triumph" of the noble Steppe warrior! It's all starting to sound like emotive romantic legend to me.

rms2
08-02-2017, 11:19 PM
1. No L51 in the Steppe either.

I hope you will apologize when it is found. Like I said, more than once, Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe has not been tested. Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin has not been tested. Mikhailovka, Kemi Oba, and Budzhak have not been tested.

We have L23 in Yamnaya from the Caspian and Volga-Ural steppe, much of it Z2103. L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 and close in age. They did not spring up far from one another and in totally different cultural milieus.



3. Oh yes, the "triumph" of the noble Steppe warrior! It's all starting to sound like emotive romantic legend to me.

No one said any of that crap. I said Indo-European languages and culture triumphed in western Europe.

People in western Europe did not acquire steppe dna, y-dna L151 and Indo-European speech and culture via osmosis.

rms2
08-02-2017, 11:23 PM
I think it's a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic.
The Steppe Warrior is the new Superman of the 21st Century with the difference that the everyone knows Superman is fiction.
Oops, forgot to put the emo :biggrin1:

I know what you are implying: that anyone who argues for the Kurgan Hypothesis is a racist who believes in the old "Aryan Superman" nonsense.

That is an underhanded lie.

It would be nice if your once or twice monthly drive-by posts had some sort of substance to them.

Isidro
08-02-2017, 11:29 PM
How low can you go...so you are a mind reader now?.I have very little consideration in your opinions and with your higher than though attitude you got nothing to consider worthwhile. When you are done quoting Gimbutas and join the learning curve maybe I will consider giving you some credit.


I know what you are implying: that anyone who argues for the Kurgan Hypothesis is a racist who believes in the old "Aryan Superman" nonsense.

That is an underhanded lie.

It would be nice if your once or twice monthly drive-by posts had some sort of substance to them.

rms2
08-02-2017, 11:43 PM
No need for mind reading when someone posts something like the following:



I think it's a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic.
The Steppe Warrior is the new Superman of the 21st Century with the difference that the everyone knows Superman is fiction . . .

If you weren't implying that those who accept the Kurgan Hypothesis are racists who believe in the old "Aryan Superman" nonsense, then what did you mean, especially in saying it is "a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic"?

jdean
08-03-2017, 12:05 AM
I think it's a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic.
The Steppe Warrior is the new Superman of the 21st Century with the difference that the everyone knows Superman is fiction.
Oops, forgot to put the emo :biggrin1:

Sorry but that's bollocks of the finest order !!!!

ADW_1981
08-03-2017, 01:20 AM
Well, it's certainly not L51 pre-P312, and it's nowhere near L51's estimated formation date in the 5th millennium BC. I'm beginning to wonder whether all this talk of so-called steppe DNA percentages and kurgans is just to distract from the basic fact that no L51 has been found so far in the early Steppe at all.

I have to disagree. L23 is estimated at 6200 ybp, and the major descendants Z2103 and L51 are just a few hundred years apart. Steppe genomes have yielded just about 100% EHG (0%CHG) as of 4000 BC. By the Bronze Age (in northern Europe), EHG makes a heavy push westwards, with or without CHG.

rms2
08-03-2017, 01:59 AM
It all strikes me as sledgehammer-to-the-head obvious.

R1b-L151 appears in Europe west of the Dniester in the third millennium BC and expands rapidly so that its clades form a kind of bush when diagrammed. The Indo-Europeans are coincidentally expanding out of the steppe during the same period. Indo-European language and culture spread throughout Europe, including to places where R1a and R1b-Z2103 are vanishingly rare and where Corded Ware never came. Steppe dna also expands all the way to the Atlantic during the same period.

R1b-L23 is found in Yamnaya on the Caspian steppe and the Volga-Ural steppe. Most of it is Z2103, but some of it is L23* (e.g., I0443). R1b-L51, the father of L151, is the brother clade under L23 of Z2103. Both are close in age and not likely to have arisen far from one another and in different cultural milieus.

R1b-M269, R1b-L51, R1b-L151, R1b-P312 and steppe dna are found in non-Iberian Bell Beaker. Non-Iberian Bell Beaker is a kurgan culture some scholars attribute to Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin and others attribute to Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker Corded Ware. Prior to the advent of Bell Beaker, there is no R1b-L23 or steppe dna in western Europe. After Bell Beaker arrives in the mid-third millennium BC, there is plenty of both, and Indo-European languages and culture take root and thrive there.

ADW_1981
08-03-2017, 02:02 AM
epp is correct that we have little to no aDNA from Italy. It doesn't matter though, I suspect northern Sardinia is probably representative of some of the earliest inhabitants of Italy. Expect ancient Italians to be extinct branches of I, C1, maybe even R or some other stuff. By the neolithic period, Italy probably had I2, R-V88, and some G2a2 at minimum. I'm not convinced downstream of M269 was there, but I could be wrong.

rms2
08-03-2017, 02:40 AM
epp is correct that we have little to no aDNA from Italy. It doesn't matter though, I suspect northern Sardinia is probably representative of some of the earliest inhabitants of Italy. Expect ancient Italians to be extinct branches of I, C1, maybe even R or some other stuff. By the neolithic period, Italy probably had I2, R-V88, and some G2a2 at minimum. I'm not convinced downstream of M269 was there, but I could be wrong.

We have Remedello from the 4th and 3rd millennia BC in Italy, I and I2a and no steppe dna.

Then Bell Beaker appears (I2478, 2200–1930 BC) and there is R1b-P312 and steppe dna.

We only have one Italian Bell Beaker sample thus far, but the pattern does not appear to differ from what it has been elsewhere.

Isidro
08-03-2017, 02:54 AM
Steppe Warrior does not equate Kurgan Hypothesis maybe you should go back to school and re learn English. But the fact that you think it's the same thing says a lot about your mind set.


No need for mind reading when someone posts something like the following:



If you weren't implying that those who accept the Kurgan Hypothesis are racists who believe in the old "Aryan Superman" nonsense, then what did you mean, especially in saying it is "a lot more serious and tenebrous than just romantic"?

Isidro
08-03-2017, 02:57 AM
Ok sure just trying to fit in :biggrin1:


Sorry but that's bollocks of the finest order !!!!

MitchellSince1893
08-03-2017, 03:09 AM
http://johnparkerlive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Groan-man-statue.fw_.png

http://www.dailyencouragement.net/images/misc/wheels_fall_off.jpg

Administrator
08-03-2017, 03:59 AM
Warning! Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Everyone is to remain civil. This thread is being monitored.

Mher
08-03-2017, 10:38 AM
This may be an additional piece of evidence supporting P312 originating in Yamnaya proper versus Corded Ware.

We have a new Big Y from a guy from Armenia who may be true P312*. We need his BAM file. We've already had some DF27+ people from this same subgroup of Armenia but they were A431+ which would indicate a more westerly origin. If we start find more true P312* folks from a particular region that may help us out.
who is new armenian P312?657355 John Aviet, b., place of birth or origin unknown?

Webb
08-03-2017, 12:46 PM
I botched this all up!!!!

Webb
08-03-2017, 12:47 PM
who is new armenian P312?657355 John Aviet, b., place of birth or origin unknown?

Mher, please see the above post.

Webb
08-03-2017, 12:48 PM
Alex has him under ZZ12. He shares some snps with a Serra from Spain.

Ok Mher, please see this post.

Mher
08-03-2017, 06:35 PM
Ok Mher, please see this post.
10801 and he from Italy(he have Big) near to spaniard and after to armenian

Mher
08-03-2017, 07:08 PM
I have new nearest match from FrANCE,who can help me say him that send her Bam to Alex tree?

epp
08-03-2017, 07:40 PM
I don't know about romantic, but we are all communicating in an indo-european language 5,000 years later.

What a triumph for the man possibly from the Steppe! As we all know, this was his dream all along

... even though he still wouldn't have a clue what we're talking about.

epp
08-03-2017, 08:03 PM
I have repeatedly pointed out in this thread and elsewhere that we have NO Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe or the Carpathian Basin. We don't have any y-dna from Mikhailovka I or Budzhak.
And I have repeatedly pointed out that we don't have any L51 DNA from anywhere until it crops up in mainly Western and Central Europe. In other words, the pre-Bell Beaker y-DNA that we have so far is useless in explaining West European R1b. That is why, as things stand, our only real clues to L51 are Bell Beaker and modern DNA samples.


You do realize the only Yamnaya y-dna we have, with the exception of one I2a from Bulgaria, comes from the Caspian steppe and the Volga-Ural steppe, right? You understand that leaves vast parts of the steppe, especially west of the Don, and thousands upon thousands of kurgans unaccounted for, right?
Exactly. Unaccounted for. No evidence one way or the other.


The Yamnaya y-dna we do have has been predominantly R1b-L23, most of it belonging to L51's brother clade under L23, Z2103. It bears repeating that L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 ... that appear to have branched off from each other before Yamna came into existence.


"P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically"? Seriously?Perhaps I've missed it. Where are all the archaeological samples of P312's ancestors then - the pre-Bell Beaker L151s and L51s?

epp
08-03-2017, 08:19 PM
Yes it is tragic that they were so short-sighted and lacking in ambition as to go straight for an island which had copper ore and which (being an island) had a more temperate climate than the mainland. It is baffling. :biggrin1:
While they were roaming around the Steppe, they saw the weather forecast for Sardinia and, having always had a soft spot for its copper deposits, thought let's leave the Steppe and plough straight through the Balkans and the Alps and down Italy (that we know nothing about because we've always restricted ourselves to living on the Steppe) and build a boat and sail across the sea and set up home in sunny Sardinia - we can ignore the rest of Europe for the next thousand years.

epp
08-03-2017, 08:27 PM
I hope you will apologize when it is found.Why? I didn't say it wouldn't be found. I said it hasn't been found.


Like I said, more than once, Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe has not been tested. Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin has not been tested. Mikhailovka, Kemi Oba, and Budzhak have not been tested.

We have L23 in Yamnaya from the Caspian and Volga-Ural steppe, much of it Z2103. L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23 and close in age. They did not spring up far from one another
How do you know where they sprung up when there are no early samples of L51? You're just guessing.