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epp
08-03-2017, 08:42 PM
I know what you are implying: that anyone who argues for the Kurgan Hypothesis is a racist who believes in the old "Aryan Superman" nonsense.
I have no idea what the motivations are for people who argue for the Kurgan Hypothesis, although I do notice that a geeky love of science and a fondness for fantasy superheroes often come together.

epp
08-03-2017, 08:59 PM
I have to disagree. L23 is estimated at 6200 ybp, and the major descendants Z2103 and L51 are just a few hundred years apart.
I agree with you entirely. I'm not sure what you think you're disagreeing about.

epp
08-03-2017, 09:23 PM
epp is correct that we have little to no aDNA from Italy. It doesn't matter though, I suspect northern Sardinia is probably representative of some of the earliest inhabitants of Italy. Expect ancient Italians to be extinct branches of I, C1, maybe even R or some other stuff. By the neolithic period, Italy probably had I2, R-V88, and some G2a2 at minimum. I'm not convinced downstream of M269 was there, but I could be wrong.
The archaeological samples that Jean M kindly provided for me show pre-Bell Beaker R1b samples in Spain and Germany. The notion that all of R1 adamantly refused to venture out from the Steppe for tens of thousands of years until an explosion of it in Bell Beaker doesn't ring true. In fact, R1a and R1b are amongst the biggest wanderers of the lot. The 1,500 year old L51/L151 bottleneck until it began branching out in Bell Beaker could have sat anywhere. Currently, there is no evidence it sat in the Steppe.

rms2
08-03-2017, 09:36 PM
And I have repeatedly pointed out that we don't have any L51 DNA from anywhere until it crops up in mainly Western and Central Europe . . .

When it does crop up in those places it's in the middle of the third millennium BC in Bell Beaker, a kurgan culture derived by some scholars from Yamnaya and by some others from Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker Corded Ware. When L51 does show up, it is correlated with steppe dna. Bell Beaker is also thought to be connected with the spread of Indo-European languages and culture into central and western Europe, both of which, along with steppe dna and R1b-L23, spread to places where R1a and R1b-Z2103 are vanishingly scarce and where Corded Ware never set foot.

We have a growing list of Neolithic and Mesolithic samples from central and western Europe, but no R1b-L51, no steppe dna, and no Indo-European languages and culture prior to Bell Beaker and the third millennium BC.

The evidence is pretty plain already, and we don't even have any ancient y-dna from Yamnaya on the Pontic steppe, Yamnaya in the Carpathian Basin, or from Mikhailovka, Kemi Oba, or Budzhak.



Exactly. Unaccounted for. No evidence one way or the other.

Unlike Neolithic Europe, which has produced a lot of results, none of them R1b-L51 and none of them with steppe dna.

All those places I mentioned above and in previous posts, the Pontic steppe, etc., are the places likely to produce R1b-L51 results, because those were the areas and cultures with the populations that actually moved west.



... that appear to have branched off from each other before Yamna came into existence.

Yamnaya came into existence around 4000 BC. L51 and Z2103 are brother clades under L23. Z2103 came into existence around the time Yamnaya came into existence, and L51 came into existence around 100 years later, at least according to YFull's estimates. Whatever the precise timing, both clades arose on the steppe within the same cultural milieu that spawned the Yamnaya cultural horizon.



Perhaps I've missed it. Where are all the archaeological samples of P312's ancestors then - the pre-Bell Beaker L151s and L51s?

You said that "P312's y-dna heritage is almost blank archaeologically". That is not true. We have all of the archaeological evidence I mentioned above concerning Bell Beaker, as well as the genetic and linguistic evidence. That amounts to a preponderance of circumstantial evidence concerning P312's likely origin.

As everyone knows, even those obviously ignorant of the prehistory of the steppe and of the advent of the Indo-Europeans in Europe west of the Dniester, the absolute smoking gun of R1b-L51 in Yamnaya or some other likely pre-Bell Beaker culture has not been found yet. That will come, but in the meantime there is plenty of evidence that R1b-L51 came from the steppe with the early Indo-Europeans.

How did steppe dna and Indo-European languages and culture spread all the way to the Atlantic if their apparent vehicle, R1b-L51 (mainly in the form of L151 and its subclades), is not Indo-European and of steppe origin?

rms2
08-03-2017, 09:42 PM
I have no idea what the motivations are for people who argue for the Kurgan Hypothesis, although I do notice that a geeky love of science and a fondness for fantasy superheroes often come together.

Have you read even one of the most basic books on the Kurgan Hypothesis, you know, the ones I mentioned a number of posts back?

David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, James Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, Marija Gimbutas' The Civilization of the Goddess, or Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys?

How about any of the stuff on alternatives to the Kurgan Hypothesis, like Colin Renfrew's Archaeology & Language?

It takes a lot of brass to argue about something one really does not know the first thing about.

Jean M
08-03-2017, 10:00 PM
While they were roaming around the Steppe

Epp - you asked where people from the Balkans went at the time that the tell settlements there were deserted c. 4000 BC. This has nothing to do with people roaming around the steppe.

I said that I had argued that some copper-workers from the Balkans went to Sardinia, for which there seems some evidence. (Which I outline in Ancestral Journeys.) This is by no means a settled fact, but a case can be made.

Evidence is important to a scholar. If I were to argue, without evidence of any kind in support, that anyone who went to Sardinia would obviously go to lots of other places as well, just because that is the way I think about things, I would not be a scholar.

MitchellSince1893
08-03-2017, 10:46 PM
Sadly, no longer one of my favorite threads as most posts have little to nothing to do with the title. It was good while it lasted.

Jean M
08-03-2017, 10:49 PM
Sadly, no longer one of my favorite threads as most posts have little to nothing to do with the title. It was good while it lasted.

Sorry. I'll leave you to it.

MitchellSince1893
08-03-2017, 11:00 PM
Sorry. I'll leave you to it.

PM sent

rms2
08-03-2017, 11:13 PM
Sadly, no longer one of my favorite threads as most posts have little to nothing to do with the title. It was good while it lasted.

It went down the rabbit hole of the usual attacks on the notion that R1b-L51 might be connected to the Indo-Europeans. Same story for years and years now.

MitchellSince1893
08-03-2017, 11:50 PM
It went down the rabbit hole of the usual attacks on the notion that R1b-L51 might be connected to the Indo-Europeans. Same story for years and years now.

Maybe we should create threads for these recurring arguments, so that when they appear a link can be posted for the proper place to debate the merits.

E.g.
Where did L51/L11/L151/P310/P311 originate thread.

The key to success will be that both parties agree to take it to the other thread(s)

rms2
08-04-2017, 12:02 AM
Maybe we should create threads for these recurring arguments, so that when they appear a link can be posted for the proper place to debate the merits.

E.g.
Where did L51/L11/L151/P310/P311 originate thread.

The key to success will be that both parties agree to take it to the other thread(s)

Probably wouldn't work, but it would be worth trying, I guess.

rms2
08-04-2017, 12:25 AM
Sadly, no longer one of my favorite threads as most posts have little to nothing to do with the title. It was good while it lasted.

On the other hand, I wonder how long this thread would have lasted without the usual "L51 is native to western Europe" schtick. I think it was fizzling out about the time all that started. It's not like we've had any news on the Corded Ware front lately.

MitchellSince1893
08-04-2017, 01:49 AM
On the other hand, I wonder how long this thread would have lasted without the usual "L51 is native to western Europe" schtick. I think it was fizzling out about the time all that started. It's not like we've had any news on the Corded Ware front lately.

Rather than send you an expletive filled pm...how about a top 10 list designed to offend everyone? :D

10. "My paternal line is the Steppe Superman!" "No way he's the Western Hunter Gatherer Batman!" Sorry I'm a Marvel guy. I prefer Captain America
9. "U106 can't be Germanic because ewww! I can't be associated with anything German!"
8. "U106 didn't enter the British Isles in significant numbers before the Anglo-Saxons because I said they didn't many times before"
7. "Adam and Eve were Irish, so we've been here since the Ice Age"
6. "R1b has to be Italian, because everyone else sucks!"
5. "L11/L51/L151/P310/P311 has to be Western European because gross! I can't be Eastern European"...
4. "Ok how about we compromise and be from the Balkans?" "No way! That's still too far east!"
3. "Do not question Marija Gimbutas!"
2. "Do not question Busby's numbers!"
1. "Using present day dna numbers is just as valuable as using ancient dna"

I will be happy to start a separate thread for each of these gems.
:biggrin1:

Webb
08-04-2017, 02:41 AM
Rather than send you an expletive filled pm...how about a top 10 list designed to offend everyone? :D

10. "My paternal line is the Steppe Superman!" "No way he's the Western Hunter Gatherer Batman!" Sorry I'm a Marvel guy. I prefer Captain America
9. "U106 can't be Germanic because ewww! I can't be associated with anything German!"
8. "U106 didn't enter the British Isles in significant numbers before the Anglo-Saxons because I said they didn't many times before"
7. "Adam and Eve were Irish, so we've been here since the Ice Age"
6. "R1b has to be Italian, because everyone else sucks!"
5. "L11/L51/L151/P310/P311 has to be Western European because gross! I can't be Eastern European"...
4. "Ok how about we compromise and be from the Balkans?" "No way! That's still too far east!"
3. "Do not question Marija Gimbutas!"
2. "Do not question Busby's numbers!"
1. "Using present day dna numbers is just as valuable as using ancient dna"

I will be happy to start a separate thread for each of these gems.
:biggrin1:

Did you crack? It seems like you lost it. In instances like these I find an adult beverage or several, and tobacco products help.

Power77
08-04-2017, 05:40 AM
I have new nearest match from FRANCE.

I'd say that you are either a Galatian or a Crusader descendant:).

Moderator
08-04-2017, 06:31 AM
A reminder to all members to keep posts civil. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

This thread has run its course.