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nuplix
05-30-2017, 09:10 AM
Hey guys,

I just received My Heritage DNA results.

http://i.imgur.com/L5GF7zs.png

05-30-2017, 09:25 AM
Hi, Do you have any known British Isles ancestry, or was it a surprize?

nuplix
05-30-2017, 04:22 PM
Hi, Do you have any known British Isles ancestry, or was it a surprize?

It was just a surprise!
Having ancestry from West Asia made sense; however, Europe was completely shocking.

tomz
05-31-2017, 02:17 AM
Did you know that they updated their results today? They added more populations and my results are quite different.:)

tomz
05-31-2017, 02:21 AM
I am referring to the My Heritage DNA test of course

nuplix
05-31-2017, 03:13 AM
Did you know that they updated their results today? They added more populations and my results are quite different.:)

I just checked. It's still the same.


I am referring to the My Heritage DNA test of course

Go ahead!

jml
05-31-2017, 03:38 AM
The 'Baltic' is not really unusual for South-central Asians, the odd thing is the British, which does suggests admixture.

nuplix
05-31-2017, 04:05 AM
The 'Baltic' is not really unusual for South-central Asians, the odd thing is the British, which does suggests admixture.

To be honest, I am shocked to see Baltic. British Empire actually ruled us. I can accept few amount of their admixture.

jml
05-31-2017, 04:10 AM
To be honest, I am shocked to see Baltic. British Empire actually ruled us. I can accept few amount of their admixture.

The Baltic is related to Indo-Europeans.

nuplix
05-31-2017, 04:24 AM
The Baltic is related to Indo-Europeans.

My Y-DNA is R2a. Am I Indo-European? :confused:

redifflal
05-31-2017, 05:39 PM
My Y-DNA is R2a. Am I Indo-European? :confused:

I take you're meaning Proto-Indo-European. I don't think there's a clear cut answer on that, but I'd lean more towards no. R2 is pretty antique in subcontinent.

Kelmendasi
05-31-2017, 05:48 PM
My Y-DNA is R2a. Am I Indo-European? :confused:
As far as I know only R1 haplogroups like R1a and R1b are Indo-European haplogroups. I would like to add that R2 was found among ancient Indus valley samples and as far as I know they didn't speak an Indo-European language so in conclusion I would say that R2 isn't Indo-European and that it's probably older in the sub-continent than R1a is

parasar
05-31-2017, 07:02 PM
To be honest, I am shocked to see Baltic. British Empire actually ruled us. I can accept few amount of their admixture.

It is not recent British.
Both the Balts and the British share ancestry with Indo-Aryans.
This from a very early BGA analysis:

The best single population fit is Sindhi. You fit reasonably well as North India 56% Pathan 44%, but much better as North India/European.

Of course, the exact number 7/8 (and it is exact) could mean that in fact you had one great grandparent who was British ... or two great great grandparents, etc. It can't tell that from just being "more European than average".
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software&p=46260&viewfull=1#post46260

nuplix
05-31-2017, 08:16 PM
As far as I know only R1 haplogroups like R1a and R1b are Indo-European haplogroups. I would like to add that R2 was found among ancient Indus valley samples and as far as I know they didn't speak an Indo-European language so in conclusion I would say that R2 isn't Indo-European and that it's probably older in the sub-continent than R1a is

I have to agree with you. Although I don't know much about my family history, I could say that R2a haplogroup must gave migrated from Himalayas region. I could be wrong too.


It is not recent British.
Both the Balts and the British share ancestry with Indo-Aryans.
This from a very early BGA analysis:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software&p=46260&viewfull=1#post46260


Thanks for the add-up!
There might be some mixed up among Europeans and my ancestors. Otherwise, R2a is not a Indo-European haplogroup. Again, I agree that maybe, one or two or my ancestors must be European.

Kelmendasi
05-31-2017, 08:27 PM
I have to agree with you. Although I don't know much about my family history, I could say that R2a haplogroup must gave migrated from Himalayas region. I could be wrong too.




Thanks for the add-up!
There might be some mixed up among Europeans and my ancestors. Otherwise, R2a is not a Indo-European haplogroup. Again, I agree that maybe, one or two or my ancestors must be European.
As I mentioned before R2 was found in the Indus valley civilization which shows that it's really old in the sub-continent. Maybe your European ancestors were from the British Raj?

nuplix
05-31-2017, 08:38 PM
As I mentioned before R2 was found in the Indus valley civilization which shows that it's really old in the sub-continent. Maybe your European ancestors were from the British Raj?

Possible. Could be possible.

parasar
06-01-2017, 01:29 AM
As I mentioned before R2 was found in the Indus valley civilization which shows that it's really old in the sub-continent. Maybe your European ancestors were from the British Raj?

Where is this from? Wouldn't surprise, but I have not seen this confrimed.
As far R2 goes:
R2-M479 is present in
South Asia
Ossetia
Bashkortostan
Italy
Spain
Portugal
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/extref/ejhg2010146x5.xls

And was found in Neolithic Ganj Dareh.
I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399
I1949 Iran Neolithic pre-R2-M479
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/

nuplix
06-01-2017, 02:46 AM
Where is this from? Wouldn't surprise, but I have not seen this confrimed.
As far R2 goes:
R2-M479 is present in
South Asia
Ossetia
Bashkortostan
Italy
Spain
Portugal
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/extref/ejhg2010146x5.xls

And was found in Neolithic Ganj Dareh.
I1945 Iran Neolithic R2a-Y3399
I1949 Iran Neolithic pre-R2-M479
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/

AH! Everytime I time to come up to some point, a new theory shows up. LOL!

Hey, can you predict, where would have my ancestors migrated from?

parasar
06-01-2017, 03:04 AM
AH! Everytime I time to come up to some point, a new theory shows up. LOL!

Hey, can you predict, where would have my ancestors migrated from?

My guess based on MA1 and Ganj Dareh is that your paternal line migrated to South Asia from the Baikal area via Central Asia or Persia. I don't discount a PIE association for R2, though it does appear that R2 entered South Asia earlier than the R1a related IE influx.

nuplix
06-01-2017, 03:35 AM
My guess based on MA1 and Ganj Dareh is that your paternal line migrated to South Asia from the Baikal area via Central Asia or Persia. I don't discount a PIE association for R2, though it does appear that R2 entered South Asia earlier than the R1a related IE influx.

Baikal area - North of Mongolia. Right?

MonkeyDLuffy
06-01-2017, 03:43 AM
I have few R2 South asians on 23&me. Bored who is Jammu Brahmin is R2 as well. I won't take the results from Myheritage seriously. If possible can you upload the data on gedmatch and try some calculators like Harrapa etc?

nuplix
06-01-2017, 03:49 AM
I have few R2 South asians on 23&me. Bored who is Jammu Brahmin is R2 as well. I won't take the results from Myheritage seriously. If possible can you upload the data on gedmatch and try some calculators like Harrapa etc?

I did. Here is my result from Harappa.

http://i.imgur.com/xWWtTZ5.png

What do you think about it?

MonkeyDLuffy
06-01-2017, 03:55 AM
I did. Here is my result from Harappa.

http://i.imgur.com/xWWtTZ5.png

What do you think about it?

Thanks! :)

It seems very similar to most upper caste Punjabis, especially jatts. Except the lower NE euro. The SW asian (gulf arab) between 2-3% is common among Punjabi jatts. What's your ethnicity if I may ask.

Here's my results, my biradari is Tarkhan, and I hail from East punjab, near the Jammu/Himachal area. So I score usually similar to Kashmiris with lower East asian.


# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.49
2 S-Indian 35.15
3 NE-Euro 12.79
4 Caucasian 10.81
5 Siberian 1.72
6 SW-Asian 0.82
7 Beringian 0.75
8 American 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.62
10 Papuan 0.15

nuplix
06-01-2017, 04:02 AM
Thanks! :)

It seems very similar to most upper caste Punjabis, especially jatts. Except the lower NE euro. The SW asian (gulf arab) between 2-3% is common among Punjabi jatts. What's your ethnicity if I may ask.

Here's my results, my biradari is Tarkhan, and I hail from East punjab, near the Jammu/Himachal area. So I score usually similar to Kashmiris with lower East asian.


# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.49
2 S-Indian 35.15
3 NE-Euro 12.79
4 Caucasian 10.81
5 Siberian 1.72
6 SW-Asian 0.82
7 Beringian 0.75
8 American 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.62
10 Papuan 0.15

Thank you for sharing your results. It looks a lot similar to mine. I am Chauhan. The documents, which village accountant held has written Gujjar on it.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-01-2017, 04:07 AM
Thank you for sharing your results. It looks a lot similar to mine. I am Chauhan. The documents, which village accountant held has written Gujjar on it.

I have only seen one gujjar results. Yea Punjabi gujjars score similar to other upper caste Punjabis.

Here's a spreadsheet Mcninja compiled with different South asian results on different calculators. :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

nuplix
06-01-2017, 04:09 AM
I have only seen one gujjar results. Yea Punjabi gujjars score similar to other upper caste Punjabis.

Here's a spreadsheet Mcninja compiled with different South asian results on different calculators. :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

I appreciate your help! :)

Could you predict, where would have my ancestors migrated from? A bit of clue could be helpful. :)

Kulin
06-01-2017, 04:42 AM
I appreciate your help! :)

Could you predict, where would have my ancestors migrated from? A bit of clue could be helpful. :)

The Gujjar uremheit is in Rajasthan, specifically in and around Mount Abu according to legends. All Gujjars have migrated from the that area in the last thousand years or so. The original Gujjar language, Gojri is also part of the Rajasthani dialect continuum of Indo-Aryan (www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9939-Indo-Aryan-Linguistic-Tree) (developed from Old Gujarati along with Gujaratic). I believe Gojri is still spoken by Gujjars of J&K and those of Himachal, not sure about other populations. What is your native tongue if I may ask?

nuplix
06-01-2017, 05:18 AM
The Gujjar uremheit is in Rajasthan, specifically in and around Mount Abu according to legends. All Gujjars have migrated from the that area in the last thousand years or so. The original Gujjar language, Gojri is also part of the Rajasthani dialect continuum of Indo-Aryan (www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9939-Indo-Aryan-Linguistic-Tree) (developed from Old Gujarati along with Gujaratic). I believe Gojri is still spoken by Gujjars of J&K and those of Himachal, not sure about other populations. What is your native tongue if I may ask?

Hey, Thanks for the add-up to my question.
My native language is Pahari.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-01-2017, 05:19 AM
Gujjars have been nomads. They moved a lot, follow different religions (Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism). They've spread out in all over North and Western India and Pakistan. So it's hard to pinpoint your family's origin. But the theory Kulin posted makes the most sense, although we can assume that Gujjars have been present in Punjab and surrounding regions for good amount of Centuries.

nuplix
06-01-2017, 05:24 AM
Gujjars have been nomads. They moved a lot, follow different religions (Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism). They've spread out in all over North and Western India and Pakistan. So it's hard to pinpoint your family's origin. But the theory Kulin posted makes the most sense, although we can assume that Gujjars have been present in Punjab and surrounding regions for good amount of Centuries.

Appreciate your help man. Thank you! :)

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 05:43 AM
The Gujjar uremheit is in Rajasthan, specifically in and around Mount Abu according to legends. All Gujjars have migrated from the that area in the last thousand years or so. The original Gujjar language, Gojri is also part of the Rajasthani dialect continuum of Indo-Aryan (www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9939-Indo-Aryan-Linguistic-Tree) (developed from Old Gujarati along with Gujaratic). I believe Gojri is still spoken by Gujjars of J&K and those of Himachal, not sure about other populations. What is your native tongue if I may ask?

There is no solid evidence for this, these are just stories. Gujjars in Punjab speak Punjabi and in Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Potohari.

Kulin
06-01-2017, 05:58 AM
There is no solid evidence for this, these are just stories. Gujjars in Punjab speak Punjabi and in Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Potohari.

There are evidence, from scriptures/inscriptions, plus historical states like the Gurjara-Pratihara centred in Rajasthan/Gujarat (known as the Gurjarasthra region, a name that Gujarat still retains and is found in other areas where Gujjars have dominated like Gujrat in Punjab).

The greatest evidence though, foremost is linguistic. Gojri is undeniably similar to languages of Western Rajasthan, and forms a dialect continuum with local languages there. And, no Gujjars in J&K who wander around in the Pir Panjal Range as well as the Van Gujjars of Himachal both speak Gojri.

There are even small-scale language movements in J&K for the recognition of Gojri language and many Gujjar-specialists such as Dr Javed Rahi also actively research the Gojri language as well.

nuplix
06-01-2017, 05:59 AM
There is no solid evidence for this, these are just stories. Gujjars in Punjab speak Punjabi and in Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Potohari.

So you think Gujjars of Kashmir has no link to Rajhasthan?

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 06:11 AM
The greatest evidence though, foremost is linguistic. Gojri is undeniably similar to languages of Western Rajasthan, and forms a dialect continuum with local languages there. And, no Gujjars in J&K who wander around in the Pir Panjal Range as well as the Van Gujjars of Himachal both speak Gojri.

I'm talking about the Gujjars of AJK province, Pakistan and not about the nomadic Gujjars of Himachal. The former speak a Potohari dialect, not Gojri.

Also, the two Gujjar samples that we have had till now (including noman's) are rather different genetically from the Rajasthani Agarwals and Rajputs on HarappaDNA, which wouldn't be the case had Gujjars spread out from Rajasthan.

Punjabi Gujjar from Kharian, North Punjab.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.32
2 S-Indian 31.95
3 Caucasian 12.91
4 NE-Euro 8.25
5 SE-Asian 0.72
6 Siberian 0.69
7 SW-Asian 0.51
8 Mediterranean 0.43
9 Beringian 0.16
10 American 0.05

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 06:11 AM
So you think Gujjars of Kashmir has no link to Rajhasthan?

Going by their genetics, no. They are similar to other Punjabis rather than to Rajasthanis.

nuplix
06-01-2017, 06:19 AM
Going by their genetics, no. They are similar to other Punjabis rather than to Rajasthanis.

If Gujjars of AJK has no connection to the Gujjars of Rajhasthan, then where did those AJK ones come from, and why did they adopt the same surname?

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 06:28 AM
If Gujjars of AJK has no connection to the Gujjars of Rajhasthan, then where did those AJK ones come from, and why did they adopt the same surname?

Why do they need to come from somwhere else? They've probably been living in the region that they currently inhabit for a long time.
Gujjars are found all over Punjab, Eastern KPK/Hazara, Kashmir, Haryana and Rajasthan.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-01-2017, 09:23 AM
The results can of course differ within same community depending on region. Sometimes between the region itself. My results are so far different from other Tarkhans. Same can be said for him. The Heer gujjars (Muslim gujjars) and Sikh/Hindu gujjars still speak both gojri and punjabi. Gujjars are seen as nomads, so it won't be a surprise that they mixed with the culture wherever they settled.

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 01:35 PM
The results can of course differ within same community depending on region. Sometimes between the region itself. My results are so far different from other Tarkhans. Same can be said for him. The Heer gujjars (Muslim gujjars) and Sikh/Hindu gujjars still speak both gojri and punjabi. Gujjars are seen as nomads, so it won't be a surprise that they mixed with the culture wherever they settled.

Gujjars in Punjab are not nomads and they speak Punjabi and Potohari not Gojri. I dont think there's any Rajasthani Gujar thats been tested, but the two Punjabi Gujjars results differ quite a bit from the Rajasthani Agarwal, Rajput and Marwari samples on HarappaDNA. So, I think it's pretty difficult to ascribe a Rajasthani origin to them. They are genetically very similar to other Punjabis.

Kulin
06-01-2017, 04:41 PM
I'm talking about the Gujjars of AJK province, Pakistan and not about the nomadic Gujjars of Himachal. The former speak a Potohari dialect, not Gojri.

Also, the two Gujjar samples that we have had till now (including noman's) are rather different genetically from the Rajasthani Agarwals and Rajputs on HarappaDNA, which wouldn't be the case had Gujjars spread out from Rajasthan.

Punjabi Gujjar from Kharian, North Punjab.

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 44.32
2 S-Indian 31.95
3 Caucasian 12.91
4 NE-Euro 8.25
5 SE-Asian 0.72
6 Siberian 0.69
7 SW-Asian 0.51
8 Mediterranean 0.43
9 Beringian 0.16
10 American 0.05


South Asian caste/communities largely vary genetically. Gujjars from most regions should remain the same though. It is also known that most Gujjars originally spoke Gojri.

Thatagus
06-01-2017, 07:20 PM
South Asian caste/communities largely vary genetically. Gujjars from most regions should remain the same though. It is also known that most Gujjars originally spoke Gojri.

Realistically, they can't differ by this much, atleast not in NW South Asia. Compare the results of the two Punjabi Gujjars to the Rajasthani Agarwal/Rajput/Marwaris here
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/#.WTBqAnRsbqA

Atleast we can ascertain that Punjabi Gujjars aren't of recent Rajasthani origin.
Also, linguistics are not a good way of determining this as people undergo linguistic shifts all the time, especially in that region.

bored
06-02-2017, 09:05 PM
I think Pakistani Punjabi Gujjars are different from Gujjars from J&K

nuplix
06-02-2017, 10:28 PM
I think Pakistani Punjabi Gujjars are different from Gujjars from J&K

Don't know! Everything is so confusing. In my views, they are just the people of nomads, who kept circulating around the Karakoram Range.

bored
06-03-2017, 01:25 AM
Don't know! Everything is so confusing. In my views, they are just the people of nomads, who kept circulating around the Karakoram Range.

your ancestry is from Pahari areas of Jammu right? I'm from J&K as well.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 02:39 AM
your ancestry is from Pahari areas of Jammu right? I'm from J&K as well.

Nice to meet you. I am from Azad Kashmir. My Great Grandfather migrated from Jammu to District Poonch, Azad Kashmir (now).

MonkeyDLuffy
06-03-2017, 01:11 PM
Gujjars in Punjab are not nomads and they speak Punjabi and Potohari not Gojri. I dont think there's any Rajasthani Gujar thats been tested, but the two Punjabi Gujjars results differ quite a bit from the Rajasthani Agarwal, Rajput and Marwari samples on HarappaDNA. So, I think it's pretty difficult to ascribe a Rajasthani origin to them. They are genetically very similar to other Punjabis.

I don't understand why you keep pushing rajasthni agarwals or rajputs etc. Being from same region does not mean they will have same results. Look at all punjabi biradaris results, they all differ depending on community. I score way different from a Punjabi Jatt or Punjabi Khatri. But I'm punjabi.

If you still want to push Rajasthani comparison, compare with Rajasthani Jats. Results would be similar. Admixture can change drastically in 3 generations. It's not permanent like ydna or mtdna.

You're talking about gujjars in Punjab Pakistan. I'm talking about gujjars in East Punjab, of course they're not nomads anymore. They farm, have villages now. The Sikh, Hindu and Muslim gujjars of east Punjab still speak gojri and punjabi regardless of their religions. Probably the Gojri died in west Punjab after partition. But the Muslim gujjars of India (found in Punjab and Haryana) still speak gojri and Punjabi.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-03-2017, 01:21 PM
Also here's my my heritage results :)

https://preview.ibb.co/megZav/IMG_3106.jpg

And No there is no east european ancestor, just shared ancestry with present day europeans.

Thatagus
06-03-2017, 01:46 PM
I don't understand why you keep pushing rajasthni agarwals or rajputs etc.
Because they should be a good population to compare to if we are to believe all Gujjars recently migrated out of Rajasthan to their current locations?


If you still want to push Rajasthani comparison, compare with Rajasthani Jats. Results would be similar. Admixture can change drastically in 3 generations. It's not permanent like ydna or mtdna.

Even compared with the Rajasthani Jats, they have lesser NE_Euro and higher Baloch. The only way their admixture would change drastically was if they intermixed with another population, which isn't very likely either.


You're talking about gujjars in Punjab Pakistan. I'm talking about gujjars in East Punjab, of course they're not nomads anymore. They farm, have villages now. The Sikh, Hindu and Muslim gujjars of east Punjab still speak gojri and punjabi regardless of their religions. Probably the Gojri died in west Punjab after partition. But the Muslim gujjars of India (found in Punjab and Haryana) still speak gojri and Punjabi.
Gujjars are found all over Punjab, KPK (especially the Swat Valley) all the way upto Afghanistan. Gojri was mainly spoken by the nomadic Gujjars of Himachal/Doaba/Haryana. Gojri 'dying in West Punjab' isn't likely either. Gujjars in South Punjab spoke Seraiki, in Potohar, Pothari etc. Seraiki in North Sindh is called Jattki, now does this mean all Jatts that dont speak Seraiki have forgotten their original language?
All I'm saying is all in all, it's unlikely that the majority of Gujjars (from Afghanistan to Haryana) have migrated recently out of Rajasthan.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-03-2017, 02:19 PM
Because they should be a good population to compare to if we are to believe all Gujjars recently migrated out of Rajasthan to their current locations?

Even compared with the Rajasthani Jats, they have lesser NE_Euro and higher Baloch. The only way their admixture would change drastically was if they intermixed with another population, which isn't very likely either.

Gujjars are found all over Punjab, KPK (especially the Swat Valley) all the way upto Afghanistan. Gojri was mainly spoken by the nomadic Gujjars of Himachal/Doaba/Haryana. Gojri 'dying in West Punjab' isn't likely either. Gujjars in South Punjab spoke Seraiki, in Potohar, Pothari etc. Seraiki in North Sindh is called Jattki, now does this mean all Jatts that dont speak Seraiki have forgotten their original language?
All I'm saying is all in all, it's unlikely that the majority of Gujjars (from Afghanistan to Haryana) have migrated recently out of Rajasthan.

Nowhere I've said that they recently migrated. The migration is centuries old. Enough for minor mixing between different biradaris. And mixing is not the point again. Like how Rajasthani jats score different from rajasthani rajputs or baniyas (agarwals). Similarly rajasthani gujjars might score different. We don't have any samples yet. Who knows maybe they'll have same results as their punjabi counterpart.

Thatagus
06-03-2017, 02:25 PM
Nowhere I've said that they recently migrated. The migration is centuries old. Enough for minor mixing between different biradaris. And mixing is not the point again. Like how Rajasthani jats score different from rajasthani rajputs or baniyas (agarwals). Similarly rajasthani gujjars might score different. We don't have any samples yet. Who knows maybe they'll have same results as their punjabi counterpart.

'Centuries old'? When might that be? After the downfall of IVC?
The Punjabi Gujjar samples are almost indistuingishable from some other Punjabi Awan, West Punjabi Jatt etc. results
Did they migrate out of Rajasthan, centuries past, as well?
However, it is true, that we cant say anything solid unless there are Rajasthani Gujar samples.

bored
06-03-2017, 04:12 PM
Also here's my my heritage results :)

https://preview.ibb.co/megZav/IMG_3106.jpg

And No there is no east european ancestor, just shared ancestry with present day europeans.

Mine

http://i.imgur.com/WyPkx9m.png

parasar
06-03-2017, 04:19 PM
Thank you for sharing your results. It looks a lot similar to mine. I am Chauhan. The documents, which village accountant held has written Gujjar on it.

Very interesting.
I can see two possibilities:
1. The record is recent (past 500 years) and made up with Chauhan put in as a prestige association with a Rajput clan.
2. The record is a genuine remembrance of days (1300-1400ybp) in modern Gujarat region when the Gurjjars were first emerging as a major force/line.


In fact as I have noted before even though we are Brahmans living in eastern India a written record calls us Gurjjar:

"Sri Vaijal, resident of Magadh country.

This codex contains the latter part of the same work. From this may be obtained some important information about the author and king Vaijala, as well as of the Bhumihara dynasty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=537%2C298%2C111%2C34&edge=0
... [Gurjjar vansh sambhava - of Gurjjar vansh origin]

[Yavanaraj Havinsha]
...
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U20fnz-RukDj7kmR1TGVBOuNNgfBQ&ci=405%2C217%2C313%2C103&edge=0

[Death of Vaijal ... Bhumiharakjatija]"
https://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45



The above story is also shared by the Chauhans in eastern India who found states in the Orissa area:
"This Rajput dynasty had arrived from Mainpuri or Garh Sambhor amidst a conflict with the Muslim rulers of Delhi around 13th or 14th century. The founder Ramai Deva was still in the womb of his mother when his father was murdered by the Yavanas and she fled to the hilly and forest terrains of western Odisha to seek refuge. The early 17th Century works by the Poet Gangadhar Mishra (a descendant of the famous Sanskrit poet Sambhukara from Puri) known as Kosalananda and early 18th century work by the Chauhan king Vaijala Deva known as Probodha Chandrika and Jayachandrika give detailed descriptions about their origins and foundation of the state first at Patna and then Sambalpur."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Odisha#Chauhan_Rulers_of_Patna_. 28Bolangir.29_and_Sambalpur_.5B1.5D


But this just places the migration from Delhi (then called Yoginipur on the Yamuna in the notice above) in the post-Ghorid period to eastern India, and comports well with the Chauhan presence in Ajmer to Delhi area.


The connection to Gujarat is still tenuous, but the evidence shows it to be possible.


We are related to the Mohyal Brahmans of the Punjab whose kavyas (family poems) clearly place them in Gujarat - near a river called Amravati which now exists only as an overflow channel in the Broach region which was attacked by the Arab/Syrian army:

https://books.google.com/books/content?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA155&img=1&pgis=1&dq=amravati&sig=ACfU3U0U0J7BOBigPXvzaJcCFDxYQTxIqQ&edge=0
https://books.google.com/books?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=amravati

Battle of Navasarika/Amravati
https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA208

See also:

...

The Nasik area, the Narmada valley, Tapti valley, and Mahi valley were all Gujjar regions. In fact the earliest inscription of Gujjars comes from Baroach. https://books.google.com/books?id=MRYIAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA307

The Arabs overran this region prior to their defeat at Navasarika (Nausari). This we know from Chalukyan inscriptions, Arab records, and Mohyal kavyas.

This resulted in a massive convulsion in western India and southern Indus and resulted in the Rajput/Bhumihar phenomenon - essentially both are brahmans but are socially split in some ways. These Gujjar families established kingdoms all over north India - Gohil/Gehlot/Udaipur (family of brahman Guhadatta), Ajmer/Delhi/Chauhan (family of brahman Samanta), and Ujjain/Kannauj/Pratihar (family of brahman Harichandra). Over a period of time, due to the social split and due to following primogeniture, the Rajputs started to identify more with kshatriyas and less with brahmans.

Inscriptions at Aitpur, Bijolia, and Ghatayala http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1707-Relative-finder-distribution-of-South-Asian-Caste-and-Tribal-Haplogroups&p=23564&viewfull=1#post23564

bol_nat
06-03-2017, 05:14 PM
Very interesting.
I can see two possibilities:
1. The record is recent (past 500 years) and made up with Chauhan put in as a prestige association with a Rajput clan.
2. The record is a genuine remembrance of days (1300-1400ybp) in modern Gujarat region when the Gurjjars were first emerging as a major force/line.


In fact as I have noted before even though we are Brahmans living in eastern India a written record calls us Gurjjar:

"Sri Vaijal, resident of Magadh country.

This codex contains the latter part of the same work. From this may be obtained some important information about the author and king Vaijala, as well as of the Bhumihara dynasty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=537%2C298%2C111%2C34&edge=0
... [Gurjjar vansh sambhava - of Gurjjar vansh origin]

[Yavanaraj Havinsha]
...
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U20fnz-RukDj7kmR1TGVBOuNNgfBQ&ci=405%2C217%2C313%2C103&edge=0

[Death of Vaijal ... Bhumiharakjatija]"
https://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45



The above story is also shared by the Chauhans in eastern India who found states in the Orissa area:
"This Rajput dynasty had arrived from Mainpuri or Garh Sambhor amidst a conflict with the Muslim rulers of Delhi around 13th or 14th century. The founder Ramai Deva was still in the womb of his mother when his father was murdered by the Yavanas and she fled to the hilly and forest terrains of western Odisha to seek refuge. The early 17th Century works by the Poet Gangadhar Mishra (a descendant of the famous Sanskrit poet Sambhukara from Puri) known as Kosalananda and early 18th century work by the Chauhan king Vaijala Deva known as Probodha Chandrika and Jayachandrika give detailed descriptions about their origins and foundation of the state first at Patna and then Sambalpur."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Odisha#Chauhan_Rulers_of_Patna_. 28Bolangir.29_and_Sambalpur_.5B1.5D


But this just places the migration from Delhi (then called Yoginipur on the Yamuna in the notice above) in the post-Ghorid period to eastern India, and comports well with the Chauhan presence in Ajmer to Delhi area.


The connection to Gujarat is still tenuous, but the evidence shows it to be possible.


We are related to the Mohyal Brahmans of the Punjab whose kavyas (family poems) clearly place them in Gujarat - near a river called Amravati which now exists only as an overflow channel in the Broach region which was attacked by the Arab/Syrian army:

https://books.google.com/books/content?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA155&img=1&pgis=1&dq=amravati&sig=ACfU3U0U0J7BOBigPXvzaJcCFDxYQTxIqQ&edge=0
https://books.google.com/books?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=amravati

Battle of Navasarika/Amravati
https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA208

See also:

I asked my gujjar friend and he told me that Chohan is gujjar clan in northen punjab and AJK. Not sure what relations they have with rajput clan of similar name.

Kulin
06-03-2017, 05:22 PM
I asked my gujjar friend and he told me that Chohan is gujjar clan in northen punjab and AJK. Not sure what relations they have with rajput clan of similar name.

There are actually many shared clans between lot of various groups, especially in the Northern Part of Southern Asia. I think in the Punjab, you also have some Jat gotras with the same name as Rajput ones.

kingjohn
06-03-2017, 05:23 PM
And No there is no east european ancestor, just shared ancestry with present day europeans.[/QUOTE]

cool results :)
the vikings don't want to leave you
you also scored scandinavian in my origins 2.0
regards
adam

Gandhara
06-03-2017, 05:26 PM
There are actually many shared clans between lot of various groups, especially in the Northern Part of Southern Asia. I think in the Punjab, you also have some Jat gotras with the same name as Rajput ones.

it is really hard to distinguish between jatts, gujjars, awaans and so and so....all castes/groups from Pakistani and indian Punjab look more or less the same. Same ethnic stock but different clothes of castes/clans.

bored
06-03-2017, 06:49 PM
Nice to meet you. I am from Azad Kashmir. My Great Grandfather migrated from Jammu to District Poonch, Azad Kashmir (now).

Likewise.

My mom's paternal side is from Pakistan, near Sialkot.

Kulin
06-03-2017, 07:02 PM
Likewise.

My mom's paternal side is from Pakistan, near Sialkot.

So you're 1/4th Punjabi? Or like Dogras originally from there. I think Dogri speakers are called Pahari in Pak Punjab.

bored
06-03-2017, 07:26 PM
So you're 1/4th Punjabi? Or like Dogras originally from there. I think Dogri speakers are called Pahari in Pak Punjab.

Nah. There was a huge Dogra Hindu presence in that Sialkot area before the Partition. They were Dogri-speaking and didn't consider themselves Punjabis. Keep in mind that the Pakistani border is only 10 km from Jammu. The reverse was true as well. My grandmother told me that there was a huge Muslim population in Jammu. Most of them migrated to Pakistan after the Partition. I'm not sure if they identify as Punjabi. In J&K, Pahari refers to people who live in districts like Poonch, Rajouri, etc.

Gandhara
06-03-2017, 09:00 PM
Nah. There was a huge Dogra Hindu presence in that Sialkot area before the Partition. They were Dogri-speaking and didn't consider themselves Punjabis. Keep in mind that the Pakistani border is only 10 km from Jammu. The reverse was true as well. My grandmother told me that there was a huge Muslim population in Jammu. Most of them migrated to Pakistan after the Partition. I'm not sure if they identify as Punjabi. In J&K, Pahari refers to people who live in districts like Poonch, Rajouri, etc.

Dogri language bears significant resemblance to Punjabi and the Punjab University still classifies western pahari dialects like Dogri and Kangri as dialects of Punjabi. I personally as a Punjabi can second that. This is a video of a dogri language song...and this is 100 percent Punjabi? what do other punjabies think of my point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3-vNuV5HvM

Gandhara
06-03-2017, 09:02 PM
The Songs says : " Our Land is Dogra Our dress is dogra and that our language is sweet...and so on ..."

Kulin
06-03-2017, 09:07 PM
Dogri language bears significant resemblance to Punjabi and the Punjab University still classifies western pahari dialects like Dogri and Kangri as dialects of Punjabi. I personally as a Punjabi can second that. This is a video of a dogri language song...and this is 100 percent Punjabi? what do other punjabies think of my point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3-vNuV5HvM

It's an intertransitional language or area of influence. Western Pahari overlaps a lot with Punjabi, just like Western Magadhi languages (Bhojpuri and other eastern Hindi dialects) are similar to Western Hindi.


and btw @bored posted the same exact song a while back.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 09:52 PM
I asked my gujjar friend and he told me that Chohan is gujjar clan in northen punjab and AJK. Not sure what relations they have with rajput clan of similar name.

Finally, someone is there, who supports the same theory I hold.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 10:38 PM
Very interesting.
I can see two possibilities:
1. The record is recent (past 500 years) and made up with Chauhan put in as a prestige association with a Rajput clan.
2. The record is a genuine remembrance of days (1300-1400ybp) in modern Gujarat region when the Gurjjars were first emerging as a major force/line.


In fact as I have noted before even though we are Brahmans living in eastern India a written record calls us Gurjjar:

"Sri Vaijal, resident of Magadh country.

This codex contains the latter part of the same work. From this may be obtained some important information about the author and king Vaijala, as well as of the Bhumihara dynasty.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA46&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0HkTSBGW3rSS5EC8GTdArGDOcElg&ci=537%2C298%2C111%2C34&edge=0
... [Gurjjar vansh sambhava - of Gurjjar vansh origin]

[Yavanaraj Havinsha]
...
http://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U20fnz-RukDj7kmR1TGVBOuNNgfBQ&ci=405%2C217%2C313%2C103&edge=0

[Death of Vaijal ... Bhumiharakjatija]"
https://books.google.com/books?id=kSMwAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA45



The above story is also shared by the Chauhans in eastern India who found states in the Orissa area:
"This Rajput dynasty had arrived from Mainpuri or Garh Sambhor amidst a conflict with the Muslim rulers of Delhi around 13th or 14th century. The founder Ramai Deva was still in the womb of his mother when his father was murdered by the Yavanas and she fled to the hilly and forest terrains of western Odisha to seek refuge. The early 17th Century works by the Poet Gangadhar Mishra (a descendant of the famous Sanskrit poet Sambhukara from Puri) known as Kosalananda and early 18th century work by the Chauhan king Vaijala Deva known as Probodha Chandrika and Jayachandrika give detailed descriptions about their origins and foundation of the state first at Patna and then Sambalpur."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Odisha#Chauhan_Rulers_of_Patna_. 28Bolangir.29_and_Sambalpur_.5B1.5D


But this just places the migration from Delhi (then called Yoginipur on the Yamuna in the notice above) in the post-Ghorid period to eastern India, and comports well with the Chauhan presence in Ajmer to Delhi area.


The connection to Gujarat is still tenuous, but the evidence shows it to be possible.


We are related to the Mohyal Brahmans of the Punjab whose kavyas (family poems) clearly place them in Gujarat - near a river called Amravati which now exists only as an overflow channel in the Broach region which was attacked by the Arab/Syrian army:

https://books.google.com/books/content?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA155&img=1&pgis=1&dq=amravati&sig=ACfU3U0U0J7BOBigPXvzaJcCFDxYQTxIqQ&edge=0
https://books.google.com/books?id=n8IcAAAAMAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=amravati

Battle of Navasarika/Amravati
https://books.google.com/books?id=g2m7_R5P2oAC&pg=PA208

See also:

Thank you for sharing!

I also found some studies on Gujjars of JK. Here are some screenshots from those studies.

http://i.imgur.com/zjMj09O.png

http://i.imgur.com/6xy5e5R.png

http://i.imgur.com/R9gstYR.png

Sources:
Scheduled Tribes of northwest India: Jammu & Kashmir and Himachal Pradesh by Centre for Policy Studies
PASTORAL NOMADS OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR; GUJJARS AND BAKERWALS

Sikeliot
06-03-2017, 10:41 PM
I am quite interested to see Baltic and British Isles DNA in a lot of Afghans, Pakistanis, etc. who have posted results. Where might this have come from and why is it present?

Kulin
06-03-2017, 10:55 PM
I am quite interested to see Baltic and British Isles DNA in a lot of Afghans, Pakistanis, etc. who have posted results. Where might this have come from and why is it present?

Shared ancestry through Indo-European migrations (at least the Baltic which is normal for most people). Not sure why many are getting British/Scandinavian though, but I guess some sort of shared ancestry.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 11:21 PM
Shared ancestry through Indo-European migrations (at least the Baltic which is normal for most people). Not sure why many are getting British/Scandinavian though, but I guess some sort of shared ancestry.

Since Britishers were in sub-continent, British ancestry could be because of them.

Kulin
06-03-2017, 11:26 PM
Since Britishers were in sub-continent, British ancestry could be because of them.

No lol, they didn't really impact the masses of people. There are at max 3-4 million Anglo-Indians in the whole world, out of the total subcontinent population of 1.7 billion people. The British ancestry is probably due to some shared segments in genome or maybe an error in algorithm.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 11:33 PM
No lol, they didn't really impact the masses of people. There are at max 3-4 million Anglo-Indians in the whole world, out of the total subcontinent population of 1.7 billion people. The British ancestry is probably due to some shared segments in genome or maybe an error in algorithm.

Let say it's a shared segment. Where would have that come from?

Kulin
06-03-2017, 11:40 PM
Let say it's a shared segment. Where would have that come from?

Indo-Europeans. Another reason, none of the South/Central Asians usually score any Southern European.

nuplix
06-03-2017, 11:46 PM
Indo-Europeans. Another reason, none of the South/Central Asians usually score any Southern European.

Got it!

Coldmountains
06-04-2017, 01:41 AM
South Asians and Central Asians get really often British on such calculators and maybe it is no coincidence. But it very easily could be. Interestingly Kalash for example seem to share some kind of genetic stuff with NW Europeans like Scots (forget where I exactly read it) Brits are mainly descendants of Bell Beakers who were not R1b-Z2103 like Yamnaya but had close cultural and genetical ties to Yamnaya. Proto-Indo-Iranians on the otherhand originated most likely from Corded Ware subcultures ancestral to Abashevo. These Abashevo tribes settled in former Poltavka/Yamnaya areas and adopted very much of the local culture. Actually they became so Yamnayacized that most archaeologists assumed that Indo-Iranians are from Yamnaya what we know is very unlikely (Yamnaya was R1b). PIIs mixed with local poltavka people and their autosomal dna became more and more Yamnaya-like so the "British" is maybe indicating some Yamnaya(indirect Bell Beaker) affinity of some Indo-Iranians.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 02:29 AM
I am quite interested to see Baltic and British Isles DNA in a lot of Afghans, Pakistanis, etc. who have posted results. Where might this have come from and why is it present?

Definitely not the mixture. Again it's shared ancestry. Could be similar alleles of ANE or WHG or even ENF. We share 3 main components of our audna with Europeans and west asians. It should not be a surprise if present day groups show up in our admixture.

parasar
06-04-2017, 02:31 AM
I asked my gujjar friend and he told me that Chohan is gujjar clan in northen punjab and AJK. Not sure what relations they have with rajput clan of similar name.

Many of these associations have little if any merit. I'm not even sure if gujjar is the same as gurjjar, though the latter does look to be the Sanskritized form of the former*. Since these names follow the paternal line the only clear test to verify would be Y at high resolutions.
After 1400 years in the Punjab, there is no doubt that gurjjars even if they migrated from the historical gurjjar region (parts of modern Gujarat and southern Rajasthan), would autosomally become quite like their Punjabi neighbors.

*Padihar Kakkuk's Ghatayal inscription line 14:
https://books.google.com/books?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA513
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA517&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3MEUDTi4uLTiEWhQmXlWyP_QeJew&ci=685%2C1055%2C60%2C69&edge=0

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 02:31 AM
Mine

http://i.imgur.com/WyPkx9m.png

What's fascinating is that ashkenazi, you've never had it on 23&me. Also this is the first time you scored more euro than me. Probably because some of mine went to central asia. It is not the first time, if there is a proper central asian population in calculator, my euro usually ends up in it. Probably some long forgotten central asian ancestors.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 02:33 AM
@Bolnat and Parasar:

Chohan/chauhan and chaudhary are commonly used by Sikh/Hindu and muslim gujjars in Haryana and Punjab and West UP. It's probably more like a title. My Hindu gujjar friend from east punjab uses chaudhary but his clan name is Kataria.

parasar
06-04-2017, 02:48 AM
South Asians and Central Asians get really often British on such calculators and maybe it is no coincidence. But it very easily could be. Interestingly Kalash for example seem to share some kind of genetic stuff with NW Europeans like Scots (forget where I exactly read it) Brits are mainly descendants of Bell Beakers who were not R1b-Z2103 like Yamnaya but had close cultural and genetical ties to Yamnaya. Proto-Indo-Iranians on the otherhand originated most likely from Corded Ware subcultures ancestral to Abashevo. These Abashevo tribes settled in former Poltavka/Yamnaya areas and adopted very much of the local culture. Actually they became so Yamnayacized that most archaeologists assumed that Indo-Iranians are from Yamnaya what we know is very unlikely (Yamnaya was R1b). PIIs mixed with local poltavka people and their autosomal dna became more and more Yamnaya-like so the "British" is maybe indicating some Yamnaya(indirect Bell Beaker) affinity of some Indo-Iranians.

https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2014/02/14/genetic-mixing/236e9b1073c0ef2ed6225bb101e3c5f07b05a267/GENE-artboard_2.png
Per http://science.sciencemag.org/content/343/6172/747

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 02:54 AM
And No there is no east european ancestor, just shared ancestry with present day europeans.[/QUOTE]

cool results :)
the vikings don't want to leave you
you also scored scandinavian in my origins 2.0
regards
adam


Yes, me scoring nordic regions in my tests is no surprise. It's very common in all calculators. Maybe Sikhs are the Vikings of India 😄

pegasus
06-04-2017, 03:14 AM
There is no solid evidence for this, these are just stories. Gujjars in Punjab speak Punjabi and in Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Potohari.

Actually Kulin IS right. Both Kashmiri Bakharwals and Gujjars speak Gojri, its not a Dardic language its related to Rajasthani/Marwari languages. Azad Kashmir is mainly populated by Mirpuri Punjabis, its not really ethnically Kashmiri for the most part.

Thatagus
06-04-2017, 03:16 AM
Actually Kulin IS right. Both Kashmiri Bakharwals and Gujjars speak Gojri, its not a Dardic language its related to Rajasthani/Marwari languages. Azad Kashmir is mainly populated by Mirpuri Punjabis, its not really ethnically Kashmiri for the most part.

True, and I was talking about the Mirpuri Punjabi Gujjars and not the Kashmiri proper ones.

bored
06-04-2017, 03:19 AM
What's fascinating is that ashkenazi, you've never had it on 23&me. Also this is the first time you scored more euro than me. Probably because some of mine went to central asia. It is not the first time, if there is a proper central asian population in calculator, my euro usually ends up in it. Probably some long forgotten central asian ancestors.

my results on this are not consistent with results on other calculators. I usually score more Caucasus/West Asia stuff and less Euro. Maybe My Heritage is inaccurate

nuplix
06-04-2017, 03:26 AM
Many of these associations have little if any merit. I'm not even sure if gujjar is the same as gurjjar, though the latter does look to be the Sanskritized form of the former*. Since these names follow the paternal line the only clear test to verify would be Y at high resolutions.
After 1400 years in the Punjab, there is no doubt that gurjjars even if they migrated from the historical gurjjar region (parts of modern Gujarat and southern Rajasthan), would autosomally become quite like their Punjabi neighbors.

*Padihar Kakkuk's Ghatayal inscription line 14:
https://books.google.com/books?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA513
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA517&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3MEUDTi4uLTiEWhQmXlWyP_QeJew&ci=685%2C1055%2C60%2C69&edge=0

My family have never been through the name of Gujjar. They always claim to be Chauhan.
I tried to translate from Urdu to English all possible spellings of Gujjar.
http://i.imgur.com/uw6AqHr.png
The circled one was mentioned on the documents, which village accountant had. One more thing: Till my grandfather, his brothers and elders, everyone was using "Khan" as a surname. I saw my Great grandfather name on that document along with the grandfather name, "Khan" was mentioned there as their surname.

nuplix
06-04-2017, 03:28 AM
@Bolnat and Parasar:

Chohan/chauhan and chaudhary are commonly used by Sikh/Hindu and muslim gujjars in Haryana and Punjab and West UP. It's probably more like a title. My Hindu gujjar friend from east punjab uses chaudhary but his clan name is Kataria.

I have a dumb question: Was Prithviraj Chauhan a Gujjar? :pop2:

Kulin
06-04-2017, 03:29 AM
I have a dumb question: Was Prithviraj Chauhan a Gujjar? :pop2:

Lol no, he was a Rajput, and among the most famous, alongside Maharana Pratap Singh of Mewar.

pegasus
06-04-2017, 03:34 AM
I am quite interested to see Baltic and British Isles DNA in a lot of Afghans, Pakistanis, etc. who have posted results. Where might this have come from and why is it present?

The Yamnaya connection. Baltic and Northern British Isles (Scotland) have the most Yamnaya steppe dna. Also the most ANE in Europeans as far as I know.

MonkeyDLuffy
06-04-2017, 03:38 AM
Haha, Chauhan is a title, it is used by lots of tribes and castes.

nuplix
06-04-2017, 03:38 AM
Lol no, he was a Rajput, and among the most famous, alongside Maharana Pratap Singh of Mewar.

The reason I asked this question is because if you read the book: Tareek e Gojran (History of Gujjars) by Pakistani Historian Hafiz Abdul Haq Sialkoti on pg. 322-323. He had written a genealogy from Ren Si son of Prithviraj Chauhan back to Alexander The Great. That blew my mind off. I didn't believe it first. I am still VERY skeptic about it.

bol_nat
06-04-2017, 03:42 AM
Many of these associations have little if any merit. I'm not even sure if gujjar is the same as gurjjar, though the latter does look to be the Sanskritized form of the former*. Since these names follow the paternal line the only clear test to verify would be Y at high resolutions.
After 1400 years in the Punjab, there is no doubt that gurjjars even if they migrated from the historical gurjjar region (parts of modern Gujarat and southern Rajasthan), would autosomally become quite like their Punjabi neighbors.

*Padihar Kakkuk's Ghatayal inscription line 14:
https://books.google.com/books?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA513
https://books.google.com/books/content?id=SNfuJUMYDKgC&pg=PA517&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3MEUDTi4uLTiEWhQmXlWyP_QeJew&ci=685%2C1055%2C60%2C69&edge=0

I don't think gujjars would become like rest over time considering people usually don't marry outside their own communities. Like many PJL samples most also be living for long time in punjab yet they cluster with middle caste south Indians. Unless we get rajasthani gujjar results it's hard to say.

bol_nat
06-04-2017, 03:43 AM
The reason I asked this question is because if you read the book: Tareek e Gojran (History of Gujjars) by Pakistani Historian Hafiz Abdul Haq Sialkoti on pg. 322-323. He had written a genealogy from Ren Si son of Prithviraj Chauhan back to Alexander The Great. That blew my mind off. I didn't believe it first. I am still VERY skeptic about it.

It's like reading jat history on jattland.com. They also go back to 10,000BC.

nuplix
06-04-2017, 03:51 AM
It's like reading jat history on jattland.com. They also go back to 10,000BC.

LOL! I cracked up at "BC". :biggrin1:

bored
06-04-2017, 03:57 AM
It's like reading jat history on jattland.com. They also go back to 10,000BC.

are you telling me the Egyptian pyramids weren't built by Jatts?

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:03 AM
No lol, they didn't really impact the masses of people. There are at max 3-4 million Anglo-Indians in the whole world, out of the total subcontinent population of 1.7 billion people. The British ancestry is probably due to some shared segments in genome or maybe an error in algorithm.


Since Britishers were in sub-continent, British ancestry could be because of them.


I am quite interested to see Baltic and British Isles DNA in a lot of Afghans, Pakistanis, etc. who have posted results. Where might this have come from and why is it present?

I totally agree with Kulin, these are probably errors in algorithms. All alogs have their short comings and because of some similarities that overlaps in different ethnic origins...one gets labelled as another for instance a south Asian like me who is not even remotely connected to Baltics ( Finland etc ) comes out to be 8-9 percent Baltic. A Alog. error and nothing more but most people get thrilled and start actually believing in these algorithm based mismatches. Ancestry alogs are not very accurate and vary from vendor to vendor.

Kulin
06-04-2017, 04:05 AM
I totally agree with Kulin, these are probably errors in algorithms. All alogs have their short comings and because of some similarities that overlaps in different ethnic origins...one gets labelled as another for instance a south Asian like me who is not even remotely connected to Baltics ( Finland etc ) comes out to be 8-9 percent Baltic. A Alog. error and nothing more but most people get thrilled and start actually believing in these algorithm based mismatches. Ancestry alogs are not very accurate and vary from vendor to vendor.

Errors in some instances, but not most of the time, Baltic is probably a likely indicator of IE ancestry dating to ancient times.

bol_nat
06-04-2017, 04:07 AM
LOL! I cracked up at "BC". :biggrin1:

10,000BC was exaggeration on my part :P. Usually it's 5000 years old documented history for every caste or ethnic group. In Pakistan I've heard many times on tv pashtuns saying they are 5000 years old Qoum or from 3000BC.

For jats

"On the basis of historical facts the Jats are reported to be present in India from 3102 BCE"
https://www.jatland.com/home/Jats

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:09 AM
Errors in some instances, but not most of the time, Baltic is probably a likely indicator of IE ancestry dating to ancient times.

what is IE ancestry?

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:12 AM
what is IE ancestry?

Indo-European, I guess!

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:15 AM
Indo-European, I guess!

More than half the world is Indo European in one way or another. Confusing and not so scientific then , if a south Asian comes up as Finnish or Baltic. I would stay my ground these are alog. errors/ short comings of current ancestry determination methods. The science of genealogy is still in its birth stages and needs a lot of refinement.

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:23 AM
More than half the world is Indo European in one way or another. Confusing and not so scientific then , if a south Asian comes up as Finnish or Baltic. I would stay my ground these are alog. errors/ short comings of current ancestry determination methods. The science of genealogy is still in its birth stages and needs a lot of refinement.

I fully agree with your last statement. For such reason, yesterday, I sent an email to Razib Khan (http://www.razib.com/wordpress/) with my Harappa DNA Results to clarify the confusion I had with my DNA results on 23andme, FTDNA, and My Heritage. They all were showing different admixture.

This was the response, I got from him.

http://i.imgur.com/OSsYgny.png

pegasus
06-04-2017, 04:25 AM
Who designed this wiki good lord. The amount of times Scythian has been repeated is unreal. The amount of caste pride is quite hilarious. Why does something tell me a certain banned member designed this site, the style and language is the same.

The status of being a Jat is defined by the Jat blood (DNA) of the Father and mother of the offspring (Children). The Scythians warriors that invaded the Haryana & Punjab region and India in general were men (males). Each one of them took native women as wives. The children produced from that joining were the first Jats. The Status of being a Jat in Jat Blood Law is decided by the father's Jat blood (the DNA Y chromosome of the father being from Central Asia). If a Jat Man marries a Jat Woman in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given Full Jat status (100% Jat) by Jat Blood Laws. If a Jat Man marries a Non-Jat Woman in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given Half Jat status (50% Jat) by Jat Tribal Blood Laws. If a Jat Woman marries a Non-Jat Man in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given No Jat status (0% Jat) by Jat Blood Laws.

Father Mother Child Status (%)
Jat Jat Full Jat (100 %)
Jat Non-Jat Half Jat (50 %)
Non-Jat Jat Non-Jat (0 %)
Non-Jat Non-Jat Non-Jat (0 %)

Its proven Indo Iranian ancestry in Jats is of largely Indo Aryan variety. Scythians arrived much later and were East Iranics their descendants would be Pashtun or Pashtun like as they are Eastern Iranic speakers.

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:27 AM
I fully agree with your last statement. For such reason, yesterday, I sent an email to Razib Khan (http://www.razib.com/wordpress/) with my Harappa DNA Results to clarify the confusion I had with my DNA results on 23andme, FTDNA, and My Heritage. They all were showing different admixture.

This was the response, I got from him.

http://i.imgur.com/OSsYgny.png

This is so true but most people literally start believing in these percentages and one more thing is that you would notice a mark difference between results of these admixture calculators for the same person. One showing you as 50 % central Asian while the other totally eliminating it and so on. A good hobby at the moment and we hope that ultimately it will reach the level of accuracy that we desire.

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:30 AM
Who designed this wiki good lord. The amount of times Scythian has been repeated is unreal.

The status of being a Jat is defined by the Jat blood (DNA) of the Father and mother of the offspring (Children). The Scythians warriors that invaded the Haryana & Punjab region and India in general were men (males). Each one of them took native women as wives. The children produced from that joining were the first Jats. The Status of being a Jat in Jat Blood Law is decided by the father's Jat blood (the DNA Y chromosome of the father being from Central Asia). If a Jat Man marries a Jat Woman in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given Full Jat status (100% Jat) by Jat Blood Laws. If a Jat Man marries a Non-Jat Woman in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given Half Jat status (50% Jat) by Jat Tribal Blood Laws. If a Jat Woman marries a Non-Jat Man in Jat Blood Law the children from that marriage are given No Jat status (0% Jat) by Jat Blood Laws.

Father Mother Child Status (%)
Jat Jat Full Jat (100 %)
Jat Non-Jat Half Jat (50 %)
Non-Jat Jat Non-Jat (0 %)
Non-Jat Non-Jat Non-Jat (0 %)

Its proven Indo Iranian ancestry in Jats is of largely Indo Aryan variety. Scythians arrived much later and were East Iranics their descendants would be Pashtun or Pashtun like as they are Eastern Iranic speakers.

These are theories..as jatts come in various haplogroups ranging from R, J , L and H. It is unclear if they were really central Asians and if yes then in what respects? autosomal? Y DNA or mtDNA? ...too many variables and mostly theories so far.

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:42 AM
These are theories..as jatts come in various haplogroups ranging from R, J , L and H. It is unclear if they were really central Asians and if yes then in what respects? autosomal? Y DNA or mtDNA? ...too many variables and mostly theories so far.

Man! It looks like people were just scrolling down information to next generations without any confirmation.

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:46 AM
Man! It looks like people were just scrolling down information to next generations without any confirmation.

Most of these claims of foreign origins are pretty recent which our grandparents/parents were not even aware of. My theory is that most south Asians including Punjabi clans ( jatts, gujars, awans, rajputs) are pretty much locals and of same genetic stock. The problem with us ( south Asians) is that we always try to find our connection outside of our area may be caz it gives more thrill?

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:46 AM
10,000BC was exaggeration on my part :P. Usually it's 5000 years old documented history for every caste or ethnic group. In Pakistan I've heard many times on tv pashtuns saying they are 5000 years old Qoum or from 3000BC.

For jats

"On the basis of historical facts the Jats are reported to be present in India from 3102 BCE"
https://www.jatland.com/home/Jats

Pashtuns are really an old tribe.

They claim to be the descendants of Qias Abdur Rashid.

Genetic study on Pashtuns.


The haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) is found at a frequency of 51.02% among the Pashtun people. Paragroup Q-M242 (xMEH2, xM378) (of Haplogroup Q-M242 (Y-DNA)) was found at 16.3% in Pashtuns.[75] Haplogroup Q-M242 is also found at a frequency of 18% in Pashtuns in the Afghan capital of Kabul.[76]

According to a 2012 study:

"MDS and Barrier analysis have identified a significant affinity between Pashtun, Tajik, North Indian, and Western Indian populations, creating an Afghan-Indian population structure that excludes the Hazaras, Uzbeks, and the South Indian Dravidian speakers. In addition, gene flow to Afghanistan from India marked by Indian lineages, L-M20, H-M69, and R2a-M124, also seems to mostly involve Pashtuns and Tajiks. This genetic affinity and gene flow suggests interactions that could have existed since at least the establishment of the region's first civilizations at the Indus Valley and the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex."

According to a 2012 study:

"MDS and Barrier analysis. The gene flow to Afghanistan from India marked by Indian lineages L-M20, H-M69 and R2a-M124 also seems to mostly involve Pashtuns and Tajiks."

The abstract states:"our results that all current Afghans largely share a heritage derived from a common unstructured ancestral population that could have emerged during the Neolithic revolution and the formation of the first farming communities. Our results also indicate that inter-Afghan differentiation started during the Bronze Age, probably driven by the formation of the first civilizations in the region."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns#Genetics

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:49 AM
Pashtuns are really an old tribe.

They claim to be the descendants of Qias Abdur Rashid.

Genetic study on Pashtuns.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns#Genetics

Same mindset....like us Punjabies then !:)

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:50 AM
Most of these claims of foreign origins are pretty recent which our grandparents/parents were not even aware of. My theory is that most south Asians including Punjabi clans ( jatts, gujars, awans, rajputs) are pretty much locals and of same genetic stock. The problem with us ( south Asians) is that we always try to find our connection outside of our area may be caz it gives more thrill?

Haha! I have to agree with you. :)
All these years my relatives have been saying that we are Arab descendants, but results showed 0% ME ancestry. My uncle also have a family tree that goes back to the tribe of Quraysh in Arabia. For 33 generations, that family tree had "Khan", then had Arabian ancestry. Don't know who put the names in.
Lack of education leads to falsified results.

Kulin
06-04-2017, 04:54 AM
Pashtuns are really an old tribe.

They claim to be the descendants of Qias Abdur Rashid.

Genetic study on Pashtuns.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtuns#Genetics



Pashtuns don't really descend from one single ancestor, otherwise they'd only have one y-dna haplogroup. A slight majority of them do share the same haplogroup though.

Gandhara
06-04-2017, 04:55 AM
Haha! I have to agree with you. :)
All these years my relatives have been saying that we are Arab descendants, but results showed 0% ME ancestry. My uncle also have a family tree that goes back to the tribe of Quraysh in Arabia. For 33 generations, that family tree had "Khan", then had Arabian ancestry. Don't know who put the names in.
Lack of education leads to falsified results.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee then!:) we have Pakistani greeks, Pakistani arabs, Pakistan central Asians and the list go on.....

nuplix
06-04-2017, 04:56 AM
Pashtuns don't really descend from one single ancestor, otherwise they'd only have one y-dna haplogroup. A slight majority of them do share the same haplogroup though.

Yep! genetic report says something else.

(!)--SSA--(!)
06-04-2017, 08:53 AM
No lol, they didn't really impact the masses of people. There are at max 3-4 million Anglo-Indians in the whole world, out of the total subcontinent population of 1.7 billion people. The British ancestry is probably due to some shared segments in genome or maybe an error in algorithm.

Not 3-4 million.

Many Anglo-Indians moved to Canada, Australia, UK etc. Only those with Europeans fathers (I think many were Irish, the first anglo-Indian I met myself had an Irish surname) and Indian mothers were part of the Anglo-Indian community. Those (fewer) with Indian fathers and European mothers were not called Anglo-Indians.

In the 1941 India census there were 140,422 Anglo-Indians.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B9ofCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA341&lpg=PA341&dq=how+many+anglo-indian+1941+census+india&source=bl&ots=9QrkAKiXXG&sig=2FRmINThR-vCAB41wBeiHrcbyeM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXwMW-zKPUAhVCL8AKHRGaAqMQ6AEIVDAI#v=onepage&q=how%20many%20anglo-indian%201941%20census%20india&f=false

Fadeout for a Culture That’s Neither Indian Nor British
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/world/asia/15india.html
No one is certain how many Anglo-Indians live in India today; they were last counted in a census in 1941. Intermarriage and successive waves of emigration after Indian independence are thought to have reduced their number to 150,000 at most, said Robyn Andrews, a social anthropologist at Massey University in New Zealand.
The children and grandchildren of those who stayed have become increasingly assimilated, marrying Indians without European ancestors and adopting local languages.


The mother of journalist Kris Griffiths was Anglo-Indian.
"My mother is Anglo-Indian, raised in Jamshedpur, near Calcutta, before moving eventually to London's own "Little India". After she married a Welshman, I and my siblings were born fair with blue eyes."

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/200/media/images/64993000/jpg/_64993242_kris3.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20857969
The child is his mother. Looking at her father and mother, they might both have been Anglo-Indian?
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/64990000/jpg/_64990136_grandfather,grandmother&mother,mid-1950s.jpg



Most of the Anglo-Indians were more "Anglo" than "Indian". Only darker complexions betrayed their origins.
It has been noted in recent years that the number of Anglo-Indians who have succeeded in certain fields is remarkably disproportionate to the community's size. For example, in the music industry there are Engelbert Humperdinck (born Madras), Peter Sarstedt (Delhi) and Cliff Richard (Lucknow).

In 2007, on the BBC's genealogical TV series Who Do You Think You Are? impressionist Alistair McGowan discovered his Anglo-Indian origins. His Calcutta-born father had concealed his Indian nationality until his death, telling McGowan he was darker-skinned after summers spent working in greenhouses.
The same paranoia had apparently afflicted Anglo-Indian Hollywood actress Merle Oberon, who denied her ancestry.
"Throughout my life I had asked him why the family was (in India)," recalled McGowan. "Were his parents Indian? Did he speak Urdu? Did he have an elephant? He always told me simply: 'We were an English family who happened to be living in India'."
In that episode I could relate to McGowan quizzically perusing photos of increasingly Indian-looking ancestors with incongruously English names. My own relatives on the Indian side are named Ronald, Maureen, Nigel, Patricia and Adrian, among others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/whodoyouthinkyouare/past-stories/alistair-mcgowan.shtml
Alistair McGowan has always wondered about his dark colouring, which often leads him to be mistaken for French or Italian. He wonders if he has any Indian blood, an idea which his father, George, always vehemently denied, explaining away the colouring by claiming Portuguese blood long ago. But George was born and grew up in India, and on his birth certificate is listed as 'Anglo-Indian'. Thus the scene is set for a true voyage into the unknown.

Alistair heads to India, the only place where he feels he will be able to uncover the truth. With his uncle, Rusty, he explores his father's childhood home in Calcutta. He also discovers from a local historian that the term 'Anglo-Indian' means that one of the women in the family was Indian at some time in the family's history. Travelling around India to search for baptism, marriage and military records, to meet family historians and other McGowans, and to visit towns in which his family lived and cemeteries in which they were buried, Alistair traces his family back through the generations, contrasting their English-sounding names to their increasingly Indian appearance in photographs. And when he reaches Ralph McGowan he notices something strange. Ralph was born in 1836 to a Suetonius McGowan - but the mother's name is missing from the baptism entry. Suetonius is simply listed as a magistrate. This is different to the baptism entries that Alistair has found for his other ancestors.

But help is at hand. With the assistance of a local historian, Alistair finds a reference to Suetonius McGowan in a religious pamphlet. He learns that Suetonius married a noble Muslim lady, whose name was omitted from the baptism record because she refused to convert to Christianity. And thus the mystery is solved: here is the Indian link that Alistair had felt sure he would find. He does have Indian blood after all.

But Alistair is also keen to go further back and investigate his Scottish sounding name, McGowan. When did the McGowans come to India, and why did they come all the way from Scotland? It is a book of Christian tombs and monuments that holds the key to this mystery. Through it, Alistair learns that Suetonius's father was also called Suetonius, and was born in Bengal in 1775. Alistair now knows of six generations of McGowans born in India. He discovers that Suetonius's parents were John McGowen and Mary de Cruz - so there may have been a Portuguese link after all. But there is no sign that John was born in India, so the trail there has come to an end.

Back in England, Alistair takes his query about John to a military historian at the British Library. He learns from the records that John McGowan went to India as a private soldier, and worked his way up to the rank of major. But the muster books for Fort St George have another surprise in store. There is a column stating the country of origin of the soldiers - and John McGowan came from Ireland.

Bang go Alistair's visions of his Scottish roots - but it has been a magnificent journey all the same, and has laid some long-standing question to rest.

parasar
06-04-2017, 05:54 PM
Lol no, he was a Rajput, and among the most famous, alongside Maharana Pratap Singh of Mewar.

I have to disagree on this.

Descendants of Prithiviraj are Rajputs, he was not. His ancestor is called a Vipra (Bijolia inscription) - I agree not specifically a Gurjjar, though the early Chahaman inscription does come from the Gurjjar region - Broach.
They may have initially been Shak based on their early suffix -dama.
Hansot plates:"Chahamana prince Bhartrivaddha who issued this grant from Bhrigukachchha on the occasion of solar eclipse in (V. E-) 813, /. e., 756 A. D. ... first prince ... dama in c. 600 A. D."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.131515/2015.131515.History-Of-The-Chahamanas_djvu.txt

Rana Pratap would be a borderline Rajput though his ancestors were not - they were likely Gurjjars per the Atpur inspcription (Vipra from the Anandpur Gurjjar region).
http://www.eternalmewar.in/research/wikipedia/index.aspx?q=atpur
"It must be admitted that the view that some of the remote ancestors of the Rana claimed to belong to the sacerdotal order is based upon unambiguous evidence. In the Atpur Inscription of Saktikumara, dated 1034 V.S. (977 A.D.), Guhadatta, the originator of the family (prabhavah Sn-Guhila-vamsasya) , receives the epithets Viprakulanandanah, mahidevah. In the Chitorgadh Inscription of 1331 V.S. (1274 A.D.) Bappa is called a vipra"
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.503137/2015.503137.dr-bhandarkar_djvu.txt

Kulin
06-04-2017, 06:13 PM
I have to disagree on this.

Descendants of Prithiviraj are Rajputs, he was not. His ancestor is called a Vipra (Bijolia inscription) - I agree not specifically a Gurjjar, though the early Chahaman inscription does come from the Gurjjar region - Broach.
They may have initially been Shak based on their early suffix -dama.
Hansot plates:"Chahamana prince Bhartrivaddha who issued this grant from Bhrigukachchha on the occasion of solar eclipse in (V. E-) 813, /. e., 756 A. D. ... first prince ... dama in c. 600 A. D."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.131515/2015.131515.History-Of-The-Chahamanas_djvu.txt

Rana Pratap would be a borderline Rajput though his ancestors were not - they were likely Gurjjars per the Atpur inspcription (Vipra from the Anandpur Gurjjar region).
http://www.eternalmewar.in/research/wikipedia/index.aspx?q=atpur
"It must be admitted that the view that some of the remote ancestors of the Rana claimed to belong to the sacerdotal order is based upon unambiguous evidence. In the Atpur Inscription of Saktikumara, dated 1034 V.S. (977 A.D.), Guhadatta, the originator of the family (prabhavah Sn-Guhila-vamsasya) , receives the epithets Viprakulanandanah, mahidevah. In the Chitorgadh Inscription of 1331 V.S. (1274 A.D.) Bappa is called a vipra"
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.503137/2015.503137.dr-bhandarkar_djvu.txt

What about Raja Man Singh of Amber? :D

nuplix
06-04-2017, 07:26 PM
What about Raja Man Singh of Amber? :D

This one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Singh_I

parasar
06-04-2017, 10:47 PM
What about Raja Man Singh of Amber? :D

The history of the Kacchwahas is pretty dark. I would put Raja Man Singh* on the Rajput side.

The reason I did not do that for Rana Pratap, and called him a borderline Rajput, is because his family had perhaps not fully embraced the Rajput moniker at his time, and were still considered borderline Brahman/Rajput.
Abul Fazl (likely not aware of the Atpur inscription) puts it this way: "the tribe is called Sesodiah and as a Bráhman, at the beginning of their history nurtured their house, they are accounted as belonging to this caste."
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Ffile%3D00702052%26ct%3D0

*"Rajah Man Singh, son of Bhagwán Dás

He was born at Amber, and is the son of Rájah Bhagwán Dás (No. 27). Euro*pean Historians say that he was the adopted son of Rájah Bh. D., but Muhammadan Historians do not allude to this circumstance, perhaps because Hindús make absolutely no difference between a real and an adopted son. He is also known under the title of Mírzá Rájah, and Akbar bestowed upon him the title of Farzand (son).

He joined Akbar with Bihárí Mall (p. 329). In 984, he was appointed against Ráná Kíká, and gained, in 985, the great battle near Gogandah.* Rájah Rámsáh of Gwáliár was killed with his sons, whilst the Ráná himself in the melée was wounded by Mán Singh. Akbar, however, felt annoyed, because M. S. did not follow up his victory, and recalled him.

When Bhagwán Dás was appointed governor of the Panjáb, M. S. commanded the districts along the Indus. In the year 993, Prince M. Muhammad Hakím died, and M. S. was sent to Kábul to keep the country in order. He rejoined Akbar near the Indus with M. Muhammad Hakím's sons (M. Afrásyáb and M. Kaiqubád); but was soon after sent back to Kábul, where he chastised the Raushánís who, like other Afghán tribes, were given to predatory incursions. After the death of Rájah Bír Baṛ, in the war with the Yúsufzaís, M. S. was appointed to the command of the army in Kábul, in supercession of Zain Khán Kokah (No. 34) and Hakím Abul Fath. He was also put in charge of Zábulistán, as Bhagwán Dás had a fit of madness (p. 333). In the 32nd year, M. S. was recalled in consequence of loud complaints of the people against the Rájpúts and M. S.'s indifference to the Kábulís, and was appointed Governor of Bihár, to which province the tuyúls of the Kachhwáhas had been transferred.

After the death of Bhagwán Dás in 998, M. S., who hitherto had the title of Kuṉwar, received from Akbar the title of Rájah and a Command of Five Thousand. In Bihár he punished several refractory Zamindárs, as Púrán Mall and Rájah Sangrám. Rám, and received their tribute."

homosapien
06-05-2017, 03:03 AM
The reason I did not do that for Rana Pratap, and called him a borderline Rajput, is because his family had perhaps not fully embraced the Rajput moniker at his time, and were still considered borderline Brahman/Rajput.

What is a borderline Brahman/Rajput...something like there was a time when Brahmins converted to Rajputs?

homosapien
06-05-2017, 03:13 AM
Most of these claims of foreign origins are pretty recent which our grandparents/parents were not even aware of. My theory is that most south Asians including Punjabi clans ( jatts, gujars, awans, rajputs) are pretty much locals and of same genetic stock. The problem with us ( south Asians) is that we always try to find our connection outside of our area may be caz it gives more thrill?

On a general note and observation, I feel like agreeing with you on this.

From what I have observed people coming from tier 2 tier 3 cities or districts or from the interiors , typically have a tendency to make such associations. Though I would be cautious in not putting all of them in the same basket, as only some have such tendencies.

And psychologically I think it is more to do with social mobility due to a perceived handicap of obscure heritage or misinformed education.

Having said that larger cities do not usually have such problems, but they have their own exaggerations, like for example in Delhi you will see people making associations with xyz politician as their uncle/aunt. Or in Mumbai in pre - 2000 times folks saying they know so and so gangster very well etc.

parasar
06-05-2017, 03:12 PM
What is a borderline Brahman/Rajput...something like there was a time when Brahmins converted to Rajputs?

A conversion of sorts with the adoption of the Rajput name.

I gave examples of some Brahman families that became Rajputs as time progressed. Even now we have Brahman (Hathwa, Tamkuhi) and Rajput (Bisen) families both with the same Brahman ancestor Mayur Bhat.
There is confusion even in recent British accounts that call the Tamkuhi line Rajput:
"The title is hereditary. Belongs to a Bhuinhar Rajput family, claiming descent from Mayur Bhat, more than a hundred generations back. A descendant, named Raja Fateh Sahai, Bhuinhar Raja of Hoshiarpur in Saran, after the battle of Baksar in 1764, was driven from his Raj by the troops of the East India Company, and settled on the Tamkuhi estates, previously purchased by him, in Gorakhpur. Raja Fateh Sahai's grandson was the grandfather of the present Raja"
https://books.google.com/books?id=zykYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA280

See also: https://books.google.com/books?id=CMYIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA43

Harshvardhan for example was Vaish and never called a Rajput, but at a later date we see the appearance of Bais Rajputs.

bol_nat
06-05-2017, 03:58 PM
myheritage
http://i.imgur.com/P3uzl91.jpg

nuplix
06-05-2017, 06:20 PM
myheritage
http://i.imgur.com/P3uzl91.jpg

Nice! :)
You got Central Asia and Scandinavia too.

bol_nat
06-05-2017, 07:51 PM
Nice! :)
You got Central Asia and Scandinavia too.

Jutland founded by Jats
https://www.jatland.com/home/Jutland

Kulin
06-06-2017, 03:09 AM
A conversion of sorts with the adoption of the Rajput name.

I gave examples of some Brahman families that became Rajputs as time progressed. Even now we have Brahman (Hathwa, Tamkuhi) and Rajput (Bisen) families both with the same Brahman ancestor Mayur Bhat.
There is confusion even in recent British accounts that call the Tamkuhi line Rajput:
"The title is hereditary. Belongs to a Bhuinhar Rajput family, claiming descent from Mayur Bhat, more than a hundred generations back. A descendant, named Raja Fateh Sahai, Bhuinhar Raja of Hoshiarpur in Saran, after the battle of Baksar in 1764, was driven from his Raj by the troops of the East India Company, and settled on the Tamkuhi estates, previously purchased by him, in Gorakhpur. Raja Fateh Sahai's grandson was the grandfather of the present Raja"
https://books.google.com/books?id=zykYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA280

See also: https://books.google.com/books?id=CMYIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA43

Harshvardhan for example was Vaish and never called a Rajput, but at a later date we see the appearance of Bais Rajputs.


That is interesting, I'm a descendant of Isa Khan paternally who was supposedly a Bais Rajput with ancestry tracing to Awadh.

homosapien
06-06-2017, 02:50 PM
A conversion of sorts with the adoption of the Rajput name.

I gave examples of some Brahman families that became Rajputs as time progressed. Even now we have Brahman (Hathwa, Tamkuhi) and Rajput (Bisen) families both with the same Brahman ancestor Mayur Bhat.
There is confusion even in recent British accounts that call the Tamkuhi line Rajput:
"The title is hereditary. Belongs to a Bhuinhar Rajput family, claiming descent from Mayur Bhat, more than a hundred generations back. A descendant, named Raja Fateh Sahai, Bhuinhar Raja of Hoshiarpur in Saran, after the battle of Baksar in 1764, was driven from his Raj by the troops of the East India Company, and settled on the Tamkuhi estates, previously purchased by him, in Gorakhpur. Raja Fateh Sahai's grandson was the grandfather of the present Raja"
https://books.google.com/books?id=zykYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA280

See also: https://books.google.com/books?id=CMYIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA43

Harshvardhan for example was Vaish and never called a Rajput, but at a later date we see the appearance of Bais Rajputs.

The reasons for my query were two.

1) Based on ancient texts it is assumed that Pre Mauryan times, people who are capable of doing the duties of varna took up the corresponding varna and in later times which was possibly during the Mauryan period we see varnas becoming hereditary and more rigid with internal ranking.

2) If the above being true, I was surprised that in Pre Modern History there were internal varna conversions/movements and that too from a higher rank to a lower rank.
(In-fact we should see more of a movement from lower rank to higher rank especially in the British accounts which relied on self attestation of the interviewed).

Since you are more widely read on these topics, what is your view, were varnas hereditary or based on duties.

parasar
06-06-2017, 04:06 PM
The reasons for my query were two.

1) Based on ancient texts it is assumed that Pre Mauryan times, people who are capable of doing the duties of varna took up the corresponding varna and in later times which was possibly during the Mauryan period we see varnas becoming hereditary and more rigid with internal ranking.

2) If the above being true, I was surprised that in Pre Modern History there were internal varna conversions/movements and that too from a higher rank to a lower rank.
(In-fact we should see more of a movement from lower rank to higher rank especially in the British accounts which relied on self attestation of the interviewed).

Since you are more widely read on these topics, what is your view, were varnas hereditary or based on duties.

There was movement no doubt. The Vishwamitra gotra is often given as an example. But movement to the Brahman rank was difficult for others.
Brahmans were permitted by many law-givers to engage in non-priestly duties, but by doing so did lose social standing.

When the Greeks came to India in the early or just pre-Maurya period, their reports do not indicate that caste demarcations were recent. They were stringent with the exception that anyone could become a philosopher (ajivika) which very few did because it was so difficult to be one.
"It is not lawful for anyone to marry a woman from another caste; for example, for husbandmen to marry from the class of artisans or the reverse. It is not lawful for the same man to exercise two trades, or to exchange from one caste into another; for instance, he may not cease to be a shepherd and become a husbandman, or cease to be an artisan and become a shepherd."
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Indica.html

parasar
06-06-2017, 04:23 PM
That is interesting, I'm a descendant of Isa Khan paternally who was supposedly a Bais Rajput with ancestry tracing to Awadh.

That's fascinating!
Isa Khan was a very troublesome Bhuiya to the Mughals who had to send a contingent to pacify him specifically.

"It is a curious circumstance that Abul Fazl in the Ain, Jarrett ll, 117, calls ' Isa, ' Isa Afghan,1 for in the Akbarnama III, 432, he says that his father was a Bais Rajput, that is, a Rajput belonging to Baiswara in Oudh. (See Elliot's Supp. Glossary, ed. by Beames I, 13.) This seems to indicate that the Ain was written first, and before Abul Fazl had received correct information. The account in the Akbarnama agrees with the family tradition mentioned by Dr. Wise that 'Isa's father was a Bais Rajput whose name was Kali Das Gajdani, and that when he became a Muhammadan he received the title of Sulaiman Khan. Abul Fazl tells us, that the father settled in the fluviatile region of Bengal and became a rebel. In the reign of Salim Shah, the the son of Sher Shah, Taj Khan, the elder brother of Sulaiman Kararani, and Darya Khan were sent against him. After severe fighting he gave in, and was pardoned. But soon afterwards he rebelled again and was, by stratagem, made a prisoner and put to death. His two sons, 'Isa and Ishmael were sold to merchants and carried off into Central Asia."
https://books.google.com/books?id=ig_gAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA57
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8639-Indians-with-pashtun-ancestry&p=188525&viewfull=1#post188525

rajaumerabbasi
06-29-2017, 03:36 AM
Hi bro,
How and where did you get your ancestry DNA test?
I'm a Pakistani, currently living in Malaysia.

Xehanort
07-12-2017, 10:11 PM
On MyHeritage Pakistanis score at least 20% West Asian, and so do some North West Indians. However, if you were to do a AncestryDNA test, you wouldn't score Caucasus. MyHeritage is a bit weird, and not as accurate as the others.

nuplix
07-12-2017, 11:51 PM
On MyHeritage Pakistanis score at least 20% West Asian, and so do some North West Indians. However, if you were to do a AncestryDNA test, you wouldn't score Caucasus. MyHeritage is a bit weird, and not as accurate as the others.

That's what people told me about My Heritage. I don't know about Caucasus, since Harappa World Caucasus region for me.

thejkhan
04-25-2018, 07:19 AM
That is interesting, I'm a descendant of Isa Khan paternally who was supposedly a Bais Rajput with ancestry tracing to Awadh.

How can you be a descendant of Isa Khan paternally and still be a Kulin Brahmin? Doesn't Brahmin identity come from the paternal side?

Kulin
04-25-2018, 05:07 PM
How can you be a descendant of Isa Khan paternally and still be a Kulin Brahmin? Doesn't Brahmin identity come from the paternal side?

My maternal family is of Kulin Brahmin origin. I identify as only Bengali generally in real life, but relate most to my maternal family due to growing up with them.

Amber29
09-10-2018, 03:22 PM
you wouldnt score because their algorithms different. The west asian and celtic are more to do with ANCIENT DNA where ancestry dna doesn't show up. When ancestry does the comparison with other asian they consider these genes are normal and lumped with south asian. we already know that i think My heritage shows proper insight dna compared to other websites. on FTDNA i got 96percent central asian and no south asian, i found that odd and 4 percent british isles.

Amber29
11-28-2018, 07:54 PM
Finally, someone is there, who supports the same theory I hold.

I am a chohan rajput, do i need to question this too about myself? LOL! about the whole chohan being a gujjar clan?

nuplix
11-29-2018, 07:26 AM
I am a chohan rajput, do i need to question this too about myself? LOL! about the whole chohan being a gujjar clan?

That whole thing is confusing. I have digging my Clan. Some says it's Hybrid of Gujjar, Rajput, and Jatt. While other says that all of these clans have Chauhans. My family believes that we are Rajput Chauhan. Don't know!

Amber29
11-30-2018, 12:15 AM
That whole thing is confusing. I have digging my Clan. Some says it's Hybrid of Gujjar, Rajput, and Jatt. While other says that all of these clans have Chauhans. My family believes that we are Rajput Chauhan. Don't know!

How is one supposed to find out now lol.... something tells me it may have something to do with settling in the area maybe to be accepted but I could be wrong. or to be considered to be part of society or something it could be anything. i dont know too hahahaha

Amber29
11-30-2018, 12:16 AM
That whole thing is confusing. I have digging my Clan. Some says it's Hybrid of Gujjar, Rajput, and Jatt. While other says that all of these clans have Chauhans. My family believes that we are Rajput Chauhan. Don't know!

How is one supposed to find out now lol.... something tells me it may have something to do with settling in the area maybe to be accepted but I could be wrong. or to be considered to be part of society or something it could be anything. i dont know too hahahaha

nuplix
11-30-2018, 05:20 AM
How is one supposed to find out now lol.... something tells me it may have something to do with settling in the area maybe to be accepted but I could be wrong. or to be considered to be part of society or something it could be anything. i dont know too hahahaha

Well, the better approach is to talk to the relative and other family members, read some books on history, and maybe, visit your town or village to see if someone has old genealogical records there.

Hhuyhhbhh
07-26-2019, 10:15 PM
Gujjar from dadyal, Azad kashmir

My gedmatch results are

39% Baloch
32.8% South Indian
10% Caucasian
9% north Eastern European
And the rest is relatively low percentages

My beta update 23andme results were 72.8% northern Indian and percentage and broadly 10% central Asian and northern Indian and Pakistani and I got 5.7% south Asian with 8.1% broadly south and central Asian and the rest is unassigned.

Me and my family speak pothwari and we don't know where we came from in India because we've been in northern Punjab for as long as we know (my great grandma was born in dadyal but it used to be part of Punjab before partition)

aaronbee2010
07-26-2019, 11:38 PM
Gujjar from dadyal, Azad kashmir

My gedmatch results are

39% Baloch
32.8% South Indian
10% Caucasian
9% north Eastern European
And the rest is relatively low percentages

My beta update 23andme results were 72.8% northern Indian and percentage and broadly 10% central Asian and northern Indian and Pakistani and I got 5.7% south Asian with 8.1% broadly south and central Asian and the rest is unassigned.

Me and my family speak pothwari and we don't know where we came from in India because we've been in northern Punjab for as long as we know (my great grandma was born in dadyal but it used to be part of Punjab before partition)

Nice results man :)

What are your haplogroups? As far as paternal haplogroups go, L-M27 appears to be a very common line in Gujjars.

Hhuyhhbhh
07-28-2019, 03:28 PM
My mom's haplogroup is m30b and my father's is actually L-m27���� which you guessed correctly. Also I have been wondering who are we closely related to: the Punjabis or the Rajasthanis. Personally I feel Punjabis easily because we have been here for a hella of a long time especially in my family and I heard some people think we are more closely related to the Rajasthanis which I disagree with

Hhuyhhbhh
07-29-2019, 12:04 AM
Another gujjar here hailing from Azad Kashmir and my results are.
39.35%baloch
32.87%south indian
10.51% Caucasian
9.07%NE-european
2.90 Mediterranean
2.38 SW-asian
1.54 NE Asian

Hhuyhhbhh
07-29-2019, 10:41 AM
I'm a gujjar from dadyal, Azad Kashmir and I got
1. 39.35% Baloch
2. 32.8% south Indian
3. 10.5% Caucasian
4. 9% NE European
5. 2.90% Mediterranean
6. 2.38% SW Asian
7. 1.54% NE Asian

Also my brother got 14% Caucasian and 40% Baloch but I got .8% more south indian and higher percentages with the NE euro SW, NE, Asian And a higher Mediterranean percentage

Hhuyhhbhh
07-29-2019, 12:22 PM
Barely any gujjars on here, I'm a pahari chechi gujjar from Azad kashmiri

Hhuyhhbhh
07-29-2019, 07:26 PM
Well my results differ from that dude and I'm a chechi gujjar
Balochi 39.35%
South Indian 32.8%
Caucasian 10.5%
NE euro 9.07%
Mediterranean 2.90%
SW Asian 2.35%
NE Asian 1.54%

Population group X1 (top 5)
Punjabi harrapa
Singapore indian
Kashmiri pahari
Punjabi Brahmin
Kashmiri pandit
Punjabi ramgariha
Punjabi jatt
Punjabi Arian
Up Muslim
Kashmiri harrapa

X2 population
50% kashmiri pahari 50% punjabi
X3 50% kashmiri pahari 25% jatt Sikh 25% up Muslim

X4 Gujarati Muslim X kashmiri pahari X kashmiri pahari Rajasthani brahmin

Thoughts?

Amber29
07-29-2019, 07:32 PM
Well my results differ from that dude and I'm a chechi gujjar
Balochi 39.35%
South Indian 32.8%
Caucasian 10.5%
NE euro 9.07%
Mediterranean 2.90%
SW Asian 2.35%
NE Asian 1.54%

Population group X1 (top 5)
Punjabi harrapa
Singapore indian
Kashmiri pahari
Punjabi Brahmin
Kashmiri pandit
Punjabi ramgariha
Punjabi jatt
Punjabi Arian
Up Muslim
Kashmiri harrapa

X2 population
50% kashmiri pahari 50% punjabi
X3 50% kashmiri pahari 25% jatt Sikh 25% up Muslim

X4 Gujarati Muslim X kashmiri pahari X kashmiri pahari Rajasthani brahmin

Thoughts?

your scores are normal.

laltota
08-15-2019, 01:02 PM
Gujjar from dadyal, Azad kashmir

My gedmatch results are

39% Baloch
32.8% South Indian
10% Caucasian
9% north Eastern European
And the rest is relatively low percentages

My beta update 23andme results were 72.8% northern Indian and percentage and broadly 10% central Asian and northern Indian and Pakistani and I got 5.7% south Asian with 8.1% broadly south and central Asian and the rest is unassigned.

Me and my family speak pothwari and we don't know where we came from in India because we've been in northern Punjab for as long as we know (my great grandma was born in dadyal but it used to be part of Punjab before partition)

My mother is from a place also called Dadyal in Hoshiarpur district.

Hhuyhhbhh
11-22-2019, 10:19 PM
True, and I was talking about the Mirpuri Punjabi Gujjars and not the Kashmiri proper ones.

My family are chechi gujjars from mirpuri region and I was wondering about our family history although we don't really have much idea and no one in my family up too my 4th grandparents spoke gojri that we know of

gudar
12-17-2019, 02:02 PM
Actually Kulin IS right. Both Kashmiri Bakharwals and Gujjars speak Gojri, its not a Dardic language its related to Rajasthani/Marwari languages. Azad Kashmir is mainly populated by Mirpuri Punjabis, its not really ethnically Kashmiri for the most part.


My family are chechi gujjars from mirpuri region and I was wondering about our family history although we don't really have much idea and no one in my family up too my 4th grandparents spoke gojri that we know of

gujjar are not local here brother. bhimber and mirpur of azad kahshmir were part of gujrat city of punjab before dogras and mirpuris are punjabi not kashmirs , most of em are actually gujjars and rajputs but also many gujjars and rajputs of murpur identify as jatts for various political and social reasons but in my opinion genuine jatts are rare in mirpur or kashmir.

gujjars original abode was gujrat/rajhastan but they used to roam everywhere for grazing cattle/sheeps from kpk to punjab.

Gujrat and gujranwala cities of pakistan were established by king akbar

"At the time when His Majesty Akbar went to Kashmir, a fort had been built on the bank of that river. Having brought to this fort a body of Gujars who had passed their time in the neighborhood in thieving and highway robbery, he established them here. As it had become the abode of Gujars, he made it a separate pargana, and gave it the name of Gujrat. (The Memoirs of Jahangueir (Rogers), Volume 1, chpt. 23)


gujjars were pushed by gondals and ranjha jatts alliance from gujrat and later waraichs jatts pushed them from gujranwala too, towards jammu kashmir and potohar and some further to kpk with few remnants left here and there in punjab

protest of gujjar brothers because 2 gujjar brothers killed named abdul qadir kohli and noor khattana by terrorists


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEs4f7WMnQQ

it's quite interesting now that many orignal potohari/jammu tribes have moved to south punjab and even further to sindh fro better food opportunities and many sindhi/ gujrati tribes are now considered potohari

Kasana
09-08-2020, 11:48 AM
............

Kasana
09-08-2020, 12:04 PM
..............

Kasana
09-08-2020, 12:09 PM
I'm a gujjar from dadyal, Azad Kashmir and I got
1. 39.35% Baloch
2. 32.8% south Indian
3. 10.5% Caucasian
4. 9% NE European
5. 2.90% Mediterranean
6. 2.38% SW Asian
7. 1.54% NE Asian

Also my brother got 14% Caucasian and 40% Baloch but I got .8% more south indian and higher percentages with the NE euro SW, NE, Asian And a higher Mediterranean percentage

Is he your real brother?
What's his exact result?

Kasana
09-08-2020, 12:11 PM
I don't understand why you keep pushing rajasthni agarwals or rajputs etc. Being from same region does not mean they will have same results. Look at all punjabi biradaris results, they all differ depending on community. I score way different from a Punjabi Jatt or Punjabi Khatri. But I'm punjabi.

If you still want to push Rajasthani comparison, compare with Rajasthani Jats. Results would be similar. Admixture can change drastically in 3 generations. It's not permanent like ydna or mtdna.

You're talking about gujjars in Punjab Pakistan. I'm talking about gujjars in East Punjab, of course they're not nomads anymore. They farm, have villages now. The Sikh, Hindu and Muslim gujjars of east Punjab still speak gojri and punjabi regardless of their religions. Probably the Gojri died in west Punjab after partition. But the Muslim gujjars of India (found in Punjab and Haryana) still speak gojri and Punjabi.

Gujjar result from Jaipur rajasthan.
Gujjar_GJ2 Sample

2018 Pathak et. al. The Genetic Ancestry of Modern Indus Valley Populations from Northwest India

HarappaWorld

Population
S-Indian 34.86 Pct
Baloch 41.27 Pct
Caucasian 11.64 Pct
NE-Euro 5.29 Pct
SE-Asian 0.73 Pct
Siberian 1.12 Pct
NE-Asian -
Papuan -
American 0.17 Pct
Beringian 1.16 Pct
Mediterranean 0.19 Pct
SW-Asian 3.56 Pct
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African

Although, Gujjar results of Rajasthan may vary district to district in Rajasthan as Rajasthan is very large state and Gujjars are divided into special belt and Gujjars prefer to marry in same belt.....Marriage in Gujjars out of their belt is very rare....
Well, This Jaipur, Rajasthan Gujjar result is also similar with other Punjabi and Swat Gujjar results...
Hence, We can say Gujjars are one same people Rajasthan to swat...
But Nomad Gujjars of Jk, hp, Gilgit could show bit different results as they are kinda unmixed group as they are isolated since centuries 😊

Kasana
10-10-2020, 05:38 AM
I'm a gujjar from dadyal, Azad Kashmir and I got
1. 39.35% Baloch
2. 32.8% south Indian
3. 10.5% Caucasian
4. 9% NE European
5. 2.90% Mediterranean
6. 2.38% SW Asian
7. 1.54% NE Asian

Also my brother got 14% Caucasian and 40% Baloch but I got .8% more south indian and higher percentages with the NE euro SW, NE, Asian And a higher Mediterranean percentage

Can you post result of ur brother too?

R2d2
12-12-2020, 12:59 PM
Those who got status from brahmin through rituals are Rajput, those who could not be bothered remained GUJAR and JAT.
ALL ARE FROM SAME OR SIMILAR GENE POOL