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rms2
04-23-2019, 01:08 AM
I was just looking for any separation of DF13 from L21. I think it is quite likely that those early L21 guys were also DF13. If so, then DF13 probably originated back on the continent along with L21. We just don't know, though. For those who don't know, the vast majority of L21+ is DF13+. L21 has 3,807 downstream branches on the FTDNA tree. 3,698 of those branches are DF13's, or 97%.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-L21
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-DF13

I also think they were probably DF13+ and that DF13 originated on the Continent.

Probably they were Corded Ware Single Grave Protruding Foot Beaker, as well. Time will tell if we ever get any test results from CWSGPFB on the Continent.

rms2
04-30-2019, 09:04 PM
Wish we had something to talk about. Things have gotten really seriously boring on the L21 front lately.

The last really exciting news came with the Olalde et al Bell Beaker paper, and that's a couple of years ago now.

Oh, well. Just have to keep plugging away on my own personal genealogy I guess.

jdean
04-30-2019, 10:10 PM
Wish we had something to talk about. Things have gotten really seriously boring on the L21 front lately.

The last really exciting news came with the Olalde et al Bell Beaker paper, and that's a couple of years ago now.

Oh, well. Just have to keep plugging away on my own personal genealogy I guess.

Funny you should say that !!!

rms2
04-30-2019, 11:04 PM
Funny you should say that !!!

Well, it is a good thing for me that I have something interesting going on on the personal genealogy front.

Otherwise, things would really be seriously dull.

TigerMW
05-01-2019, 01:11 AM
...
Oh, well. Just have to keep plugging away on my own personal genealogy I guess.
And the personal genealogy part has been exciting. I have seen your posts on the Stevens’s.

Others are making progress too. I don’t like to brag too much but since this is L21 thread; of the 8809 branches of R1b on the Haplotree, 3870 are L21.

I agree that ancient DNA is of paramount importance but there is a fantastic span between today and NW Beakers. I wonder about the timing and spread to a full Celtic language, then to P innovations, etc. and then Old Irish, Welsh, etc. What old King Cole and the impact of the men from the north on Wales as well as Dal Raida, the NW Irish, etc.

rms2
05-03-2019, 11:16 PM
I'd really like to see a Europe-wide hunt for the Indo-Europeans, with lots of ancient dna from Corded Ware, Yamnaya, and more from Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Give us some Single Grave Corded Ware Protruding Foot Beaker, for example, and a bunch of Yamnaya men from the Carpathian Basin. How about some Budzhak dna?

What's the hold up?

Romilius
05-04-2019, 10:27 AM
I'd really like to see a Europe-wide hunt for the Indo-Europeans, with lots of ancient dna from Corded Ware, Yamnaya, and more from Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Give us some Single Grave Corded Ware Protruding Foot Beaker, for example, and a bunch of Yamnaya men from the Carpathian Basin. How about some Budzhak dna?

What's the hold up?

That's the problem I pointed out months ago: the way of investigating the IE problem is totally wrong and bespoke tailored to waste time and energies.

We all call this subject genetic genealogy and archaeogenetics, but I see very few genealogy and too much archaeology.

I explain myself better: if you want to know who were people from a certain archaeological culture, the way all universities follow is correct.

However, if you want to solve the language-cultural matter, you have to or, better, you must follow the way of genealogical researching:
1) to sample sure IE cultures;
2) then to go back in time following places and with the help of other subjects.

That's the way of genealogy, id est, the only way to know at a good level of certainty the connection//link between two people or groups of people.

That is, I can't go from the great-great-great-great grandfather to the today descendant, that's not scientific: I must go from the today living descendant to the most ancient ancestor. In archaeogenetics, I must go from cultures that spoke for sure a IE language to Corded Ware/Bell Beaker/Yamna and not the other way around!

razyn
05-04-2019, 01:18 PM
In archaeogenetics, I must go from cultures that spoke for sure a IE language to Corded Ware/Bell Beaker/Yamna and not the other way around!
I don't think that's a very strong analogy, but I suppose one could bespoke tailor "the language-cultural matter" to make it fit.

Really, though, archaeogenetics is scientifically on much firmer ground than genealogy. The problems arise in the tailoring.

rms2
05-04-2019, 01:25 PM
I don't think that's a very strong analogy, but I suppose one could bespoke tailor "the language-cultural matter" to make it fit.

Really, though, archaeogenetics is scientifically on much firmer ground than genealogy. The problems arise in the tailoring.

It would be seriously interesting, though, if we could do ancient dna like genealogy. You know, take modern descendants of Europeans and work back through the dna of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc., and on backward through the centuries and, ultimately, the millennia.

Naturally, gaps in the records (and then the absence of any written records) would render all that impossible, but it would be cool.

rms2
05-04-2019, 10:05 PM
Do you get the impression that geneticists studying ancient dna aren't very systematic, I mean, overall?

They seem to get about half way to conclusions and then stop short.

rms2
05-04-2019, 10:19 PM
I'd really like to know if L21 came from Corded Ware or Yamnaya.

Romilius
05-05-2019, 06:58 PM
Do you get the impression that geneticists studying ancient dna aren't very systematic, I mean, overall?

They seem to get about half way to conclusions and then stop short.

Yes, highly unsystematic.

It's like they do skeet shooting: they decide a target and then they try to hit it.

Common sense, instead, suggest to start from certain data, and then to go back, like in genealogical researches.

Now, could someone tell me what is the difference to know if my haplogroup is from Yamna or from Corded Ware, when we don't even know what language did they speak?
For example, first of all, I know that I have my haplogroup in A.D. 2019 in Addis Abeba, and that in 1900 my great-grandfather had it in Northern Italy. From there, I know from genealogical records that I came from a certain location in Northern Italy from 1200.
Then, I wish to go back: I take samples from the same area, that I know was divided in people who followed Roman law, others who followed Langobard law and others who followed Alemannic or Salian laws before A.D. 1000. Then, I can see if there is continuity in population dynamics (on uniparental markers). Back then, also other samples from the area from Roman sites and celtic ones. Then I know that people who spoke for sure IE languages were of certains Y-DNA and mtDNA. Back again: cultures from where archaelogically derived Celts and Romans + local area, in order to know if there was continuity or changement. And so on...

The result? In five years we would have solved the Afro-Asiatic language origin problem, the IE language origin problem, the Hurro-Urartian language origin problem... On the contrary, we still are here to argue if R1b is Vasconic (from the early 2000 we are still on the same arguments!), to argue if R1a is a sort of super-human haplogroup (and, frankly, I've had enough of R1a enthusiasts full of nationalistic pride and latent racism).

From my point of view, my interest in this subject is rapidly decreasing, because I see that, probably, nobody cares about solving linguistic and archaeological mysteries through genetics. And listen well to what I say: the R1a=IE and R1b=whatever it was but not IE battle will continue for at least 10 years.

Romilius
05-05-2019, 07:00 PM
I'd really like to know if L21 came from Corded Ware or Yamnaya.

What's the problem? For R1a enthusiasts, if it came from Corded Ware, then it was picked up by the real IE CW R1a peoples; if it was from Yamna, then Yamna wasn't IE speaking... because the matter is the same: we didn't do a step forward with this system of researching.

rms2
05-05-2019, 09:50 PM
Well, I don't really care what the various partisans think. The fact is that the geneticists have left too many holes in the story so that just about anybody can claim just about anything.

I'd like to see them finally do a thorough investigation of the Indo-European question.

jdean
05-05-2019, 10:50 PM
Well, I don't really care what the various partisans think. The fact is that the geneticists have left too many holes in the story so that just about anybody can claim just about anything.

I'd like to see them finally do a thorough investigation of the Indo-European question.

Personally I think we had the answer a good few years ago but recently the discussion has gone off on a tangent.

Romilius
05-06-2019, 06:13 AM
Personally I think we had the answer a good few years ago but recently the discussion has gone off on a tangent.

And why did it go off on a tangent? Because we didn't do a single step towards a clear explanation.

I explain myself: we were near to solve the link between IE and R1b of some subclades and I2a of some subclades... then appeared the last Olalde paper that messed up again the picture. It opened two doors:

1) historically Iberian-speaking communities are R1b and steppe derived, so someone could clearly conclude that R1b was proto-Iberian;
2) R1b was a sort of IE marker of the very first IE waves into Western Europe, but we need more evidence of that (evidence that, with a systematic sampling from same areas in different ages, we would have had many years ago).

What's the real explanation?

We don't know... because we have holes too big to fill them.

I don't know about you all, but the last Iberian paper made me upset: thousands of words written about the link between Yamna, IE and R1b-M269, then the bomb: M269 in Iberian-speaking people! And the most bizarre thing is that those results came from the same scholars who were (and are) sure of M269-IE link.

jdean
05-06-2019, 11:03 AM
I don't know about you all, but the last Iberian paper made me upset: thousands of words written about the link between Yamna, IE and R1b-M269, then the bomb: M269 in Iberian-speaking people! And the most bizarre thing is that those results came from the same scholars who were (and are) sure of M269-IE link.

I'm definitely not a linguist so take my lead from them that know, as far as I'm aware there's very little doubt in the origin of PIE amongst the greater majority of those that make it their business to study this subject at an academic level.

WRT to the genetic make up and languages of IA Iberia I thought Agamemnon made a lot of sense.

"I'll be honest. I truly do not understand the fuss here." (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years&p=555676&viewfull=1#post555676)

Romilius
05-10-2019, 02:40 PM
I'm definitely not a linguist so take my lead from them that know, as far as I'm aware there's very little doubt in the origin of PIE amongst the greater majority of those that make it their business to study this subject at an academic level.

WRT to the genetic make up and languages of IA Iberia I thought Agamemnon made a lot of sense.

"I'll be honest. I truly do not understand the fuss here." (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16682-The-genomic-history-of-the-Iberian-Peninsula-over-the-past-8000-years&p=555676&viewfull=1#post555676)

That's interesting: I agree with the part about the fact that IE speakers in Iberia were like pushed inland and westward by newcomers, probably the Iberian speakers.

That, frankly, gives also a big punch on the face of people that believe that IE peoples were like supermen and others like slaves of the dominant ones.

However, like I said before, we need more proofs about Iberian linguistic turnover. And also we need results from France, to better understand the Vasconic communities (I, personally, think about a late Vasconization).

Ruderico
05-10-2019, 03:18 PM
That's interesting: I agree with the part about the fact that IE speakers in Iberia were like pushed inland and westward by newcomers, probably the Iberian speakers.

That, frankly, gives also a big punch on the face of people that believe that IE peoples were like supermen and others like slaves of the dominant ones.

However, like I said before, we need more proofs about Iberian linguistic turnover. And also we need results from France, to better understand the Vasconic communities (I, personally, think about a late Vasconization).

I don't think it's so much about IE being pushed westwards, but mostly west Iberians (IE-speaking ones) being a bit further away from the incoming new peoples and slightly sheltered in the more rugged highlands of the northwest. Odds are peoples in west Iberia were spekaing IE languages by 2200 or 2100 BC, later being connected to the Atlantic Bronze groups. My (tentative) guess is that these groups in Iberia spoke languages ancestral to what we now refer to as Lusitanian

rms2
05-10-2019, 10:12 PM
What fascinates or puzzles me is that the British I2417 is R1b-L21 and indistinguishable from Corded Ware, having just as much steppe dna as the most Yamnaya-like Corded Ware individuals. I would really like to see an effort made in that direction in the Netherlands/NW Germany. Was there an L21 Corded Ware tribe there?

jdean
05-10-2019, 10:58 PM
What fascinates or puzzles me is that the British I2417 is R1b-L21 and indistinguishable from Corded Ware, having just as much steppe dna as the most Yamnaya-like Corded Ware individuals. I would really like to see an effort made in that direction in the Netherlands/NW Germany. Was there an L21 Corded Ware tribe there?

Wherever and whatever I'll drink to the day they turn up an early L21 outside the Isles, they must have been out there somewhere !!!

alan
05-12-2019, 10:38 PM
What fascinates or puzzles me is that the British I2417 is R1b-L21 and indistinguishable from Corded Ware, having just as much steppe dna as the most Yamnaya-like Corded Ware individuals. I would really like to see an effort made in that direction in the Netherlands/NW Germany. Was there an L21 Corded Ware tribe there?

I suppose a coastal location and adaption to maritime environment (or a huge river estuary at the sea) would be a prerequisite to the way L21 seems to have spread to every nook and cranny of the isles in the period 2400-2000BC. As the main driver of beaker in the isles we can see that it was not just a hop over the channel then a life on land. It wasnt just a one-off event. They settled in places like the Hebrides, Rathlin island in Ireland and for the first two centuries the main copper sources mean sailing from the south of Ireland to Britain. We also know that this Ross Island metal as well as some isles gold artifacts passed into northern France. Continental copper and gold sources arrived too. There was a flow of beaker styles from AOO to barbed wire etc that clearly indicates a few centuries of movement to and fro across the water.

I think this all suggests a mature confident seaward looking tradition with open sea capabilities arrived fully formed in the isles with the L21 beaker people. That is one of the plus points in David's idea that a CW group in the Low Countries or nearby was harbouring P312/L21. A coastal CW group makes a great deal more sense that a sudden shift from the steppes to sailing boats in the northern seas. Coastal/near-coast/major river mouth CW groups existed for 2-300 years before steppe beaker. Thats a good long time to adapt. Also, I would tend to think that that adaption would most likely happen where the CW people met and mixed with existing groups who still to some extent saw the sea as an important part of their lives. Most farming groups in north and central Europe had abandoned the use of maritime food resources by then but there were exceptions on the margins. Also, trading existed through the Neolithic, including trade (or movement of objects) that clearly involved a person or persons making sea journeys.

rms2
05-18-2019, 01:34 AM
I miss the old days when L21 was the hot topic of discussion. Of course, I'm glad we know more now than we did then, so I wouldn't want to go back, but I wish some new and exciting news would come along.

David Mc
05-18-2019, 06:02 AM
I'm waiting somewhat impatiently too. We've had a rich few years, but there are so many questions to be answered still. Back in 2015 we heard that the 6th century remains from Cramond-- ostensibly from the royal house of Gododdin-- were going to be tested. Think about the lines that kind of info might fill in for us, (assuming they are L21, of course). We've heard nothing. To be honest, I'd love to see different kinds of "British" ancient DNA mapped out, including Anglo-Saxon and Viking, even if it's not L21. We've had a glimmer of what's to come, but it's hard waiting when you know that the right tests will open up history in a way that none of us could have imagined 40 years ago.

David Mc
05-18-2019, 06:35 AM
I've just sent an email to the man who oversaw the forensic work done at the Cramond site to ask for more information. I will let you know if I hear anything.

David Mc
05-21-2019, 06:02 PM
I've just heard back from Dr. Tom Booth. They are still working on the Cramond remains results and are "generating genome-wide SNP data from these samples, so the analyses you describe should be possible eventually."

While the waiting game continues, we at least have something to hope for and we know that the work is being done by one of the foremost experts in the field. Good news, I think!

rms2
05-27-2019, 02:59 PM
I've just heard back from Dr. Tom Booth. They are still working on the Cramond remains results and are "generating genome-wide SNP data from these samples, so the analyses you describe should be possible eventually."

While the waiting game continues, we at least have something to hope for and we know that the work is being done by one of the foremost experts in the field. Good news, I think!

I hope the report comes out soon, because things are seriously dull around this place.

Wish Reich and company - or whoever - were doing some systematic work on the spread of the Indo-Europeans throughout Europe, especially on the y-dna end of things.

Reich mentioned the creation of an ancient dna atlas over the next few years. I'd like to see that progress.

Cellachán
05-27-2019, 03:05 PM
Very amateur question, but how does R-L2 relate to L21? Cousin?

spruithean
05-27-2019, 03:06 PM
I hope the report comes out soon, because things are seriously dull around this place.

Wish Reich and company - or whoever - were doing some systematic work on the spread of the Indo-Europeans throughout Europe, especially on the y-dna end of things.

Reich mentioned the creation of an ancient dna atlas over the next few years. I'd like to see that progress.

Agreed. It's been fairly quiet lately outside of the recent Hungarian studies and Haplogroup N finds. There are a few things we are still waiting on.

rms2
05-27-2019, 03:09 PM
Very amateur question, but how does R-L2 relate to L21? Cousin?

Both share a common y-chromosome ancestor in R1b-P312.

rms2
05-27-2019, 03:36 PM
Here's a quick tree.

30642



Note: That little tree leaves out a lot. It's only intended to show the relationship between L21 and L2.

Webb
05-31-2019, 10:59 PM
What is the oldest L21 sample found to date in Britain?

rms2
05-31-2019, 11:33 PM
What is the oldest L21 sample found to date in Britain?

The oldest L21 thus far known is "the Companion" from Amesbury, Wiltshire, England, rc dated to 2470-2140 BC, with a midpoint of 2305 BC.

Webb
05-31-2019, 11:49 PM
The oldest L21 thus far known is "the Companion" from Amesbury, Wiltshire, England, rc dated to 2470-2140 BC, with a midpoint of 2305 BC.

Has there been any L21 aDna found in Ireland?

rms2
06-01-2019, 01:54 PM
Has there been any L21 aDna found in Ireland?

The Rathlin Island Beaker men from the Cassidy et al paper of a few years ago were L21. And of course we're waiting on a new paper which should have some more.

Lusitano
06-04-2019, 10:45 AM
Finally got my YSEQ results. Turns out that my final haplogroup is R1b-FGC17866.
All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 C+
Z39589 del+
DF49 G-
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 T+
FGC17906 C+
FGC17938 G-
S1050 C-
FGC17907 G+
FGC19454 C-
FGC17866 A+
FGC17898 C-
FGC17897 C-

rms2
06-09-2019, 10:53 PM
Finally got my YSEQ results. Turns out that my final haplogroup is R1b-FGC17866.
All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 C+
Z39589 del+
DF49 G-
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 T+
FGC17906 C+
FGC17938 G-
S1050 C-
FGC17907 G+
FGC19454 C-
FGC17866 A+
FGC17898 C-
FGC17897 C-

Cool.

Now I wish some researchers, like Reich and company, would run down Corded Ware and Yamnaya as far as possible to see where Kurgan Bell Beaker came from, and to see where P312 and its clades came from.

I'd like to know.

TigerMW
06-11-2019, 12:29 AM
Finally got my YSEQ results. Turns out that my final haplogroup is R1b-FGC17866.
All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Quick results summary:
R1b-L21 Superclade Orientation Panel
DF13 C+
Z39589 del+
DF49 G-
L1335 A-
DF41 T-
Z251 G-
S1051 T+
FGC17906 C+
FGC17938 G-
S1050 C-
FGC17907 G+
FGC19454 C-
FGC17866 A+
FGC17898 C-
FGC17897 C-
Https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2510
Congratulations. A lot of folks from Portugal show up under this subclade of L21.

Lusitano
06-11-2019, 02:08 PM
Https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=2510
Congratulations. A lot of folks from Portugal show up under this subclade of L21.

They do indeed but they are all from the Azores. Apparently there's someone testing several Azorean samples. I am from Central Portugal though, all my four grandparents are from the same village.

Eochaidh
06-12-2019, 05:31 PM
The Rathlin Island Beaker men from the Cassidy et al paper of a few years ago were L21. And of course we're waiting on a new paper which should have some more.
For reference, here is the tree for the 3 Rathlin men along side of existing lines, including mine (M222). Maciamo at EUpedia named the groups.


Iberian-----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF27
Italo-Celtic------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>U152
Insular Celtic----M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21
Me----------------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>M222>FGC4077>A725>S676>S679
Rathlin1----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF21
Rathlin2----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13
Rathlin3----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21

razyn
06-12-2019, 06:16 PM
Maciamo at EUpedia named the groups.

[QUOTE]Iberian-----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF27
Italo-Celtic------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>U152
Insular Celtic----M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21

Except for DF27 not really being Iberian, U152 not really being Italo-Celtic, and L21 not really being Insular Celtic, some of the rest of that stuff is probably pretty good.


Me----------------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>M222>FGC4077>A725>S676>S679
Rathlin1----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF21
Rathlin2----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13
Rathlin3----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21[/FONT]

rms2
06-12-2019, 11:08 PM
For reference, here is the tree for the 3 Rathlin men along side of existing lines, including mine (M222). Maciamo at EUpedia named the groups.


Iberian-----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF27
Italo-Celtic------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>U152
Insular Celtic----M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21
Me----------------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>M222>FGC4077>A725>S676>S679
Rathlin1----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13>DF21
Rathlin2----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21>DF13
Rathlin3----------M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21

I took screenshots of these two charts from Eurogenes awhile back showing the level of steppe dna in Rathlin 1 and Rathlin 2 in cMs shared with Yamnaya_Kalmykia Rise 548 and with Afanasievo Rise 511.

30924 30925

rms2
06-25-2019, 09:20 PM
Check out the recent paper, Re-integrating Archaeology: A Contribution to aDNA Studies and the Migration Discourse on the 3rd Millennium BC in Europe (https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/ppr.2019.4).

I really like Furholt's idea of the Single Grave Burial Ritual Complex, which he calls "SGBR" for short. It spans all the cultures that include such burial practices, like Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, and even early Bronze Age cultures like Unetice.

From pages 3-4:



THE SGBR COMPLEX

Instead of seeing the 3rd millennium BC in Europe through the lens of monothetic, distinct archaeological cultures, each with their own specific set of burial ritual, the polythetic perspective reveals a wider complex of new elements of burial ritual transcending the borders of these entities. This is a complex of burials that highlights individual interments, gender differentiation, male warriors, and mostly strict rules of orientation of the dead (Fig. 1), as opposed to the mainly collective burials of the preceding periods and neighbouring regions. I would like to name it the ‘Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age Single Grave Burial Ritual Complex’ (SGBR). SGBR appears in Central Europe and southern Scandinavia around 2900 BC, arrives on the British Isles a few hundred years later, and prevails until cremation burials take
over, somewhen after 1400 BC.

Webb
06-25-2019, 09:43 PM
Check out the recent paper, Re-integrating Archaeology: A Contribution to aDNA Studies and the Migration Discourse on the 3rd Millennium BC in Europe (https://sci-hub.tw/10.1017/ppr.2019.4).

I really like Furholt's idea of the Single Grave Burial Ritual Complex, which he calls "SGBR" for short. It spans all the cultures that include such burial practices, like Corded Ware, Bell Beaker, and even early Bronze Age cultures like Unetice.

From pages 3-4:

The Central Europe and Southern Scandinavia part caught my attention. I like this scenario as you can reconcile, L238, DF19, DF99 and the higher steppe amongst the Norwegians on Davidsky’s charts.

rms2
06-25-2019, 09:52 PM
The Central Europe and Southern Scandinavia part caught my attention. I like this scenario as you can reconcile, L238, DF19, DF99 and the higher steppe amongst the Norwegians on Davidsky’s charts.

I'm not sure what accounts for the slightly higher level of steppe dna among modern Norwegians. It could be just because there were fewer Neolithic farmers there than in the rest of Europe, but there's a lot of y-dna I-M253 in Norway, which would stem from hunter-gatherers, not steppe pastoralists.

Dewsloth
06-25-2019, 10:04 PM
The Central Europe and Southern Scandinavia part caught my attention. I like this scenario as you can reconcile, L238, DF19, DF99 and the higher steppe amongst the Norwegians on Davidsky’s charts.

And maybe Uncle U106, too?

Webb
06-25-2019, 10:33 PM
I'm not sure what accounts for the slightly higher level of steppe dna among modern Norwegians. It could be just because there were fewer Neolithic farmers there than in the rest of Europe, but there's a lot of y-dna I-M253 in Norway, which would stem from hunter-gatherers, not steppe pastoralists.

I for sure don’t think M253 is responsible for the steppe component. But, if you look at Yfull, while I1* was formed around 27,500BCE, every major subclade below it was formed at 4600BCE. If this is accurate then there has to be a reason for the strange explosion of subclades below I1*. Also DF27 being found in Quedlinburg and U152 in Kromsdorf, both locations are close to each other, roughly halfway between the Danube and North Sea. Much further into Germany than what I would have expected. As Dewsloth pointed out, U106’s movements into Western Europe may be a close mirror to P312. I suspect the genetic landscape has changed quite a bit since 2500BCE. Just my observances.

rms2
06-25-2019, 10:44 PM
When was U152 found in Kromsdorf?

The Kromsdorf BB guys were R1b-M343 and R1b-M269. That was as far as they got with them, last I heard.

And they were U106 negative. They tested them for it.

Remember too that Central European BB was actually lower in steppe dna than British and Dutch BB was.

How would an explosion of I1 subclades bring in additional steppe dna?

rms2
06-25-2019, 10:48 PM
. . . I suspect the genetic landscape has changed quite a bit since 2500BCE. Just my observances.

That's a good thing to keep in mind when trying to account for the higher steppe dna in modern Norwegians.

spruithean
06-25-2019, 11:10 PM
I for sure don’t think M253 is responsible for the steppe component. But, if you look at Yfull, while I1* was formed around 27,500BCE, every major subclade below it was formed at 4600BCE. If this is accurate then there has to be a reason for the strange explosion of subclades below I1*. Also DF27 being found in Quedlinburg and U152 in Kromsdorf, both locations are close to each other, roughly halfway between the Danube and North Sea. Much further into Germany than what I would have expected. As Dewsloth pointed out, U106’s movements into Western Europe may be a close mirror to P312. I suspect the genetic landscape has changed quite a bit since 2500BCE. Just my observances.

In regards to I1, the oldest samples often reported are stated to be from Paleolithic Spain (BAL051), Neolithic Hungary (BAB5) and Bronze Age Scandinavia (Allentoft 2015), yet these samples are likely "pre-I1" because they are only positive for some of the I1 SNPs. However, they are part of the same lineage that split from I-M170 27,500 ybp, they just don't seem to be the specific ancestors of modern I1-M253 (which has a TMRCA of 4,600 ybp). We really need more aDNA data for I1, but if modern I1 did indeed have it's Bronze Age star-like expansion in Northern Europe we might not be too lucky considering the soil and burial practices...

Webb
06-26-2019, 12:16 AM
When was U152 found in Kromsdorf?

The Kromsdorf BB guys were R1b-M343 and R1b-M269. That was as far as they got with them, last I heard.

And they were U106 negative. They tested them for it.

Remember too that Central European BB was actually lower in steppe dna than British and Dutch BB was.

How would an explosion of I1 subclades bring in additional steppe dna?

Sorry, I thought Kromsdorf was U152. So if Dutch BB is higher in steppe and modern Norwegians are higher in steppe then the closer to the North Sea, the higher in steppe. The further you move away from the North Sea, lower steppe. The explosion of I1 could be related to contact. Maybe acquiring new technology. It could also be related to filing a vacuum.

Webb
06-26-2019, 12:27 AM
Keep in mind I’m not advocating that Norway is the source of steppe admixture. But I am curious about the higher steppe around the North Sea.

Jessie
06-26-2019, 12:33 AM
Keep in mind I’m not advocating that Norway is the source of steppe admixture. But I am curious about the higher steppe around the North Sea.

Has anyone got a link for the higher Steppe areas?

alan
06-26-2019, 12:52 AM
L21 or an immediate ancestor had to have had a coastal background for a period before arriving in the isles. You dont go from a landlocked background to settling Britain, Ireland and various small islands around both as well as transporting Irish copper to Brtain and the continental side of the channel c. 2450BC if you dont have developed maritime skills.

rms2
06-26-2019, 02:25 AM
Has anyone got a link for the higher Steppe areas?

You can see it on page 4 of Haak et al, Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe (http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reichlab/Reich_Lab/Datasets_files/nature14317.pdf).

Here is the graphic (altered by me awhile back to point out the steppe dna in Basques).

31183

The differences in steppe dna among northern Europeans aren't huge.

rms2
06-26-2019, 02:35 AM
L21 or an immediate ancestor had to have had a coastal background for a period before arriving in the isles. You dont go from a landlocked background to settling Britain, Ireland and various small islands around both as well as transporting Irish copper to Brtain and the continental side of the channel c. 2450BC if you dont have developed maritime skills.

Especially if they hauled horses and livestock across the water with them. Not an easy thing to do.

glentane
06-26-2019, 08:07 PM
Especially if they hauled horses and livestock across the water with them. Not an easy thing to do.
Trick is, to hogtie (pregnant) younglings in the curragh/barge. Otherwise they'll kick holes in it. Then grow them up on the Far Shore. If they don't thrive en voyage, why, just eat 'em. Then try again. And again.
Which implies a safe, already-settled-by-your-own-folk's-hard-men kind of beach-head. I am very inclined to suppose that "beaker" settlers in the Isles dodged the very powerful "Wessex" (native) confederacy by coasting across the modern Hook of Holland to Hull route; i.e.->Spurn Head->Lindisfarne/Bamburgh-> East Lothian-> Fife-> Buchan/Moray Firth, then back down the Great Glen to Kilmartin , Kintyre and various parts of Ireland.
Gets you to the tin mines down south, en route to the early copper, through sparsely inhabited country whose rulers may well have been less kindly disposed to their southern neighbours than to random foreigners bearing hard "cash", and who didn't want to be screwed potless by the vast, heavily armed agriculturalist populations on the southern British Mainland. And they were vast, relatively, don't care what anyone says about "late neolithic collapse".

rms2
06-27-2019, 01:08 PM
. . . And they were vast, relatively, don't care what anyone says about "late neolithic collapse".

Can you expand on that? I'm not trying to argue with you; I was just surprised by it. So, you are saying the Neolithic farmers who inhabited Britain at that time had a large confederacy in the south?

One of the conclusions reached by Olalde et al, as you know, was that a ~93% replacement ensued following the arrival from the Continent of the SGBR Beaker people, with their R1b-P312 (including L21) and steppe dna.

If they had to overcome a large, well established contingent of Neolithic farmers, then the combination of violence and plague must have been horrific.

I wish Reich and company or whoever would tackle tracing the origin of L21.

Webb
06-27-2019, 01:48 PM
Some observances. I know, groan!!! Were the Neolithic farmers using metal tools? Were they mining and gathering resources? I ask because I don't know. It seems like some of the Kurgan Bell Beaker finds were exploratory. The two Z195 Sicilian remains might have been doing this. It doesn't seem that Z195 left a genetic impact on Sicily. In my mind, I picture something close to the Viking settlements. Land, secure the landing area and fortify it. Use it as home base. If the Neolithic people weren't mining for metal, would a group showing up looking to mine impact the Neolithic farmers much, initially? If the area explored was determined to be worthwhile, then more Kurgan BB's show up. At this point exploratory movements change to settlement and at this point it may have started to impact the Neolithic groups.

Webb
06-27-2019, 01:51 PM
Trick is, to hogtie (pregnant) younglings in the curragh/barge. Otherwise they'll kick holes in it. Then grow them up on the Far Shore. If they don't thrive en voyage, why, just eat 'em. Then try again. And again.
Which implies a safe, already-settled-by-your-own-folk's-hard-men kind of beach-head. I am very inclined to suppose that "beaker" settlers in the Isles dodged the very powerful "Wessex" (native) confederacy by coasting across the modern Hook of Holland to Hull route; i.e.->Spurn Head->Lindisfarne/Bamburgh-> East Lothian-> Fife-> Buchan/Moray Firth, then back down the Great Glen to Kilmartin , Kintyre and various parts of Ireland.
Gets you to the tin mines down south, en route to the early copper, through sparsely inhabited country whose rulers may well have been less kindly disposed to their southern neighbours than to random foreigners bearing hard "cash", and who didn't want to be screwed potless by the vast, heavily armed agriculturalist populations on the southern British Mainland. And they were vast, relatively, don't care what anyone says about "late neolithic collapse".

In Virginia, every year ponies on Assateague Island are rounded up and they swim the Channel to Chincoteague Island to be auctioned off. The swim takes a little under 20 minutes. I suppose the English Channel is too wide to swim, though.

rms2
07-09-2019, 08:03 PM
I haven't had time to really run this down and delve into it yet, but I was going back through Marc Heise's Heads North or East? A Re-Examination of Beaker Burials in Britain, and on pages 225-226 noticed mention of a pin buried with the Amesbury Archer that is a lot like pins found in Swiss Corded Ware. I found that interesting, since the Archer's dental isotopes suggest Switzerland as among the places he might have been born and raised.

I know it's just a pin, but also consider the AOO/AOC beakers buried at Amesbury, a type of beaker also used by Corded Ware and thought by Dutch archaeologists van der Waals, Glasbergen, and Lanting to have evolved into the Maritime Bell Beaker, as undecorated zones were introduced between zones of cord decoration and steadily got wider and wider.

Just a little Amesbury Archer note to pin up in the back of your mind.

rms2
07-17-2019, 05:47 PM
I'm a little reluctant to post the link to the following Google Slides presentation at Anthrogenica, since that means subjecting myself to some serious criticism, some of it motivated by rank ethnocentrism, but here goes.

I made this Google Slides presentation about Kurgan Bell Beaker. It's not really specifically about R1b-L21. Some of it is based on my own opinions, but I cited my sources, which you can read for yourself. If you don't like it, well I've got a finger just for you.

It's subject to updates as new information comes in, especially new ancient dna test results.

The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present.

The Kurgan Bell Beaker People (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1MFik7aXzDF8Uqj8m_KWY25IN9_xwvzEtmDOYa-k868A/edit?usp=sharing)

Finn
07-17-2019, 08:25 PM
I'm a little reluctant to post the link to the following Google Slides presentation at Anthrogenica, since that means subjecting myself to some serious criticism, some of it motivated by rank ethnocentrism, but here goes.

I made this Google Slides presentation about Kurgan Bell Beaker. It's not really specifically about R1b-L21. Some of it is based on my own opinions, but I cited my sources, which you can read for yourself. If you don't like it, well I've got a finger just for you.

It's subject to updates as new information comes in, especially new ancient dna test results.

The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present.

The Kurgan Bell Beaker People (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1MFik7aXzDF8Uqj8m_KWY25IN9_xwvzEtmDOYa-k868A/edit?usp=sharing)

Clear presentation. I want to add this.

Generalissimo:

The Dutch Beakers don't exactly sit between the Corded Ware and the other Beaker samples, but generally at the apex of their clusters, suggesting to me that they're not a mixture between Corded Ware and one or more of the other Beaker groups, but rather, as per my recent argumentation, a genetically homogeneous, relatively unique and thus long-standing Corded Ware-related population that may have contributed significant gene flow to the other Beaker groups.


The BB in Dutch context is NE Dutch (annex NW Germany) and Central Dutch (Veluwe). See this picture of archeologist Lanting (2013)
https://www.mupload.nl/img/ar4na38mse.41.34.png

Combined with:
Clarke (1967)
The Northern British/North Rhine Beaker Group (N/NR)
The particular interest of the Northern/North Rhine group and its close cousin the Barbed Wire beaker group, is that both groups only just scrape within the definition of beakers of the Bell beaker tradition. Both tlle Northern/North Rhine and the Barbed-Wire beaker groups comprise traditions of mixed Late Corded Ware and peripheral Bell beaker origin. This mixture of traditions can be recognised in the squat, protruding foot, ovoid body beakers with recurved rims, incised or grooved decoration with a poor repertoire of basic beaker motifs and a neolithic poverty of grave associations. To these factors can be added the occasional use of cremation burial rite in a small grave with the beaker beside the cremation heap, and a number of vessels without decoration below the belly.
The Northern/North Rhine beaker group then is represented by the small squat . or globular vessels with protruding feet. The decoration frequently consists of heavy grooving below the rim with crude or carelessly incised zones on the body, including metopic motifs. The typical motif is the multiple outlined triangle of the diagnostic form common throughout the Corded Ware tradition and entirely alien in the Bell beakermotifassemblage(Struve, 1955,p.136).The origin of the group seems to lie in the similar assemblages found immediately North of the old Rhine Delta and along the hinterland of the Frisian coasts. The Dutch examples of this group have been partially defined by Modderrnan (1955) but the type is centered across the border in coastal Germany4. In this area it would appear that late and devolved Corded Ware groups integrated small bands of beaker settlers producing a pottery assemblage of hybrid character.
These folk, with their strong non-beaker background, apparently crossed the North Sea in a series of small bands somewhere around 1700 B.C. or slightly later. The settlers clustered in three foci based on the North Sea Coast: - around the Moray Firth, in the Border Counties and on the Yorkshire Wolds. The domestic assemblage included both undecorated and non-plastic rusticated ware. The main importance of these settlers from across the North Sea lies in the subsequent inte*gration of certain of their pottery features with the later Dutch beakers of the Veluwe type, giving rise to regional insular variations such as the beakel,"s with short, angular. all-over-grooved necks.

rms2
07-17-2019, 11:36 PM
I'm a little reluctant to post the link to the following Google Slides presentation at Anthrogenica, since that means subjecting myself to some serious criticism, some of it motivated by rank ethnocentrism, but here goes.

I made this Google Slides presentation about Kurgan Bell Beaker. It's not really specifically about R1b-L21. Some of it is based on my own opinions, but I cited my sources, which you can read for yourself. If you don't like it, well I've got a finger just for you.

It's subject to updates as new information comes in, especially new ancient dna test results.

The best way to look at it is to click on View at the top and then on Present.

The Kurgan Bell Beaker People (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1MFik7aXzDF8Uqj8m_KWY25IN9_xwvzEtmDOYa-k868A/edit?usp=sharing)

Guess putting the link in this thread was a good idea, either that or everyone is occupied with the new Viking dna paper.

Kopfjäger
07-17-2019, 11:57 PM
Guess putting the link in this thread was a good idea, either that or everyone is occupied with the new Viking dna paper.

Rich, thank you for sharing that presentation with us. It is very clear and easy to follow, especially for laymen like myself. We really need DNA from Corded Ware in the Netherlands. Its spacial and cultural proximity to Britain during the Bronze Age really makes me think that any such samples would be R1b (likely P312).

Dewsloth
07-17-2019, 11:59 PM
Guess putting the link in this thread was a good idea, either that or everyone is occupied with the new Viking dna paper.

I like it. Now I have something to point people to that's both detailed but also clear for lay people.

rms2
07-18-2019, 12:06 AM
I like it. Now I have something to point people to that's both detailed but also clear for lay people.

Thanks. That's what I was hoping for.

rms2
07-24-2019, 05:58 PM
I think if researchers like Olalde, who I think is crackerjack (for you younguns, that means "really really good"), ever get any ancient y-dna from Protruding Foot Beaker in the Netherlands and the surrounding area, at least some of it will be R1b-L21, or at least R1b-Z290. It will also be loaded with steppe dna.

rms2
08-02-2019, 04:48 PM
So, would it be shocking or radical to claim that R1b-L21 is basically a Corded Ware y haplogroup?

Hint: I'm purposely being provocative.

TigerMW
08-02-2019, 06:07 PM
So, would it be shocking or radical to claim that R1b-L21 is basically a Corded Ware y haplogroup?

Not really, but we don't know yet. I would say Z290 is particularly important. Z290 is nearly as old P312 and is the ancestor to L21. Z290 should have arisen close to where other P312 people were.

alan
08-02-2019, 07:30 PM
Not really, but we don't know yet. I would say Z290 is particularly important. Z290 is nearly as old P312 and is the ancestor to L21. Z290 should have arisen close to where other P312 people were.

So possibly there are remaining P312* people who might be z290 if they test ? Maybe some who are still P312* despite testing for everything else

Dewsloth
08-02-2019, 07:45 PM
So possibly there are remaining P312* people who might be z290 if they test ? Maybe some who are still P312* despite testing for everything else

They could also be Z4161 (Z290's "brother") -- the DF19* block of DF19/S232, Z4161 and Z8192 was very recently split: a guy with a Czech MDKA showed up on FTDNA who is Z4161 but DF19-

Webb
08-02-2019, 11:07 PM
They could also be Z4161 (Z290's "brother") -- the DF19* block of DF19/S232, Z4161 and Z8192 was very recently split: a guy with a Czech MDKA showed up on FTDNA who is Z4161 but DF19-

Understandably most people get excited when a new downstream marker is discovered. I get excited when a new upstream marker is found. You have now demonstrated the third upstream discovery that I have learned about in the last few weeks. Mikewww informed me there is a Z290* cluster, there is a DF27 cluster that is neither ZZ12 or Z196, and now this one.

GoldenHind
08-03-2019, 02:52 AM
So possibly there are remaining P312* people who might be z290 if they test ? Maybe some who are still P312* despite testing for everything else

As Webb pointed out, there is a group which appears to be Z290+ L21-. One of my wife's relatives is in this group.

I believe there is only one example on Alex W's P312 BigTree who remains P312*, unless that has recently changed. As I recollect, he has a French surname. So there may be some more out there, but after many thousands of P312 results, they are likely to be extremely scarce. Of course P312* doesn't mean he doesn't have any SNPs below P312. It just means that whatever they are, no other person in the FTDNA system who has done the Big Y shares any of them.

alan
08-20-2019, 11:34 PM
What is the latest on L21x DF13 people?

Than_man
08-25-2019, 06:06 PM
Am I right in understanding that the "Companion" is R-L21 and not DF13? If yes, then DF13 is a mystery yet?

rms2
08-27-2019, 11:36 PM
Am I right in understanding that the "Companion" is R-L21 and not DF13? If yes, then DF13 is a mystery yet?

The Companion is L21, but DF13 is not a big mystery. At least eight of Olalde et al's British Kurgan Bell Beaker samples were DF13+.

Than_man
09-11-2019, 06:21 PM
The Companion is L21, but DF13 is not a big mystery. At least eight of Olalde et al's British Kurgan Bell Beaker samples were DF13+.

OK, thanks Richard, that's fine about the 8 British Bell Beaker men ! Yet, the Amesbury Archer and the Companion have not been confirmed as DF13+?

rms2
09-11-2019, 11:35 PM
OK, thanks Richard, that's fine about the 8 British Bell Beaker men ! Yet, the Amesbury Archer and the Companion have not been confirmed as DF13+?

No. They weren't able to get dna from the Archer. They only got as far as L21 with the Companion, but since there is good reason to believe he is the Archer's son, one can reasonably infer that the Archer was L21+, too.

rms2
10-19-2019, 11:59 AM
In the wake of Olalde et al and all its L21 and DF13 Kurgan Bell Beaker results in Britain, is anyone still arguing that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland? If so, I haven't heard that in quite some time.

GoldenHind
10-19-2019, 05:34 PM
In the wake of Olalde et al and all its L21 and DF13 Kurgan Bell Beaker results in Britain, is anyone still arguing that L21 originated in Britain or Ireland? If so, I haven't heard that in quite some time.

The most vociferous proponents of that theory seem to have gone quiet.

rms2
10-20-2019, 11:41 AM
The most vociferous proponents of that theory seem to have gone quiet.

Just one of the many services performed by ancient dna results. B)

rms2
10-22-2019, 12:08 AM
Remember all the *stuff* that used to get bandied about on dna forums and on Rootsweb, back when all we had was modern y-dna?

Phew!

It was definitely a Wild West free-for-all back in those days!

jdean
10-22-2019, 03:58 PM
Remember all the *stuff* that used to get bandied about on dna forums and on Rootsweb, back when all we had was modern y-dna?

Phew!

It was definitely a Wild West free-for-all back in those days!

Still a small no. out there with their heads buried in the mud though : )

seferhabahir
11-04-2019, 05:45 AM
Remember all the *stuff* that used to get bandied about on dna forums and on Rootsweb, back when all we had was modern y-dna?

Phew!

It was definitely a Wild West free-for-all back in those days!

I sort of miss all the randy monks and wild geese.

rms2
01-31-2020, 03:06 PM
Still waiting for some of the pending new papers that have been generating such promising rumors.

Hoping still for some continental R1b-L21 or at least R1b-Z290 and perhaps a link to Corded Ware or Yamnaya.

jdean
01-31-2020, 03:32 PM
Still waiting for some of the pending new papers that have been generating such promising rumors.

Hoping still for some continental R1b-L21 or at least R1b-Z290 and perhaps a link to Corded Ware or Yamnaya.

Same here, I'm so bored I'm fussing about with my FF matches : )

rms2
01-31-2020, 03:35 PM
Same here, I'm so bored I'm fussing about with my FF matches : )

I agree about the boredom, and I too have been checking my FF matches and bouncing back and forth from FTDNA to 23andMe to Ancestry hoping for something fun.

Things are about as dry as they ever have been here. The only papers that have been appearing lately seem designed to discourage my interest in ancient dna.

etrusco
01-31-2020, 03:48 PM
Same here, I'm so bored I'm fussing about with my FF matches : )

At midnight remember to remove the EU flag from your profile. Or maybe you put it right now :))

jdean
01-31-2020, 04:03 PM
At midnight remember to remove the EU flag from your profile. Or maybe you put it right now :))

Na I'm keeping it, might drop the Union Jack though : )

rms2
01-31-2020, 04:05 PM
Na I'm keeping it, might drop the Union Jack though : )

Drop 'em both and run up the Welsh Red Dragon. B)

jdean
01-31-2020, 04:18 PM
Drop 'em both and run up the Welsh Red Dragon. B)

Sorely tempted to change the Jack for the Welsh flag, apart from anything else it'll probably be confined to history soon.

etrusco
01-31-2020, 04:21 PM
Sorely tempted to change the Jack for the Welsh flag, apart from anything else it'll probably be confined to history soon.

Do not know about the Welsh flag. I bet all my money the Union Jack wil be deprived soon of St Andrew's cross. But I'm not taking side on the issue:behindsofa:

jdean
01-31-2020, 04:28 PM
Do not know about the Welsh flag. I bet all my money the Union Jack wil be deprived soon of St Andrew's cross. But I'm not taking side on the issue:behindsofa:

That's what I was referring to, can't have a United Kingdom or a United flag if you aren't united !!!

GoldenHind
01-31-2020, 07:15 PM
That's what I was referring to, can't have a United Kingdom or a United flag if you aren't united !!!

Well it has't happened yet, so I wouldn't be in a rush to remove it.

What about the St. George's cross flag for your YDNA ancestral homeland?

JoeyP37
01-31-2020, 07:24 PM
Well, my opinions are shaped by my late maternal grandfather, who was 100% English, who told me as a child "we're not European, we're English". At any rate I can attest that L21 is not restricted to the British Isles; I have a L21 great-great-grandfather from Nova Scotia whose male-line origin was Poitevin.

jdean
01-31-2020, 07:28 PM
Well it has't happened yet, so I wouldn't be in a rush to remove it.

What about the St. George's cross flag for your YDNA ancestral homeland?

Absolutely not, and under no circumstances, I don't get nationalistic very easily but fly the English flag !!!! : ))))))))

alan
01-31-2020, 11:04 PM
Do not know about the Welsh flag. I bet all my money the Union Jack wil be deprived soon of St Andrew's cross. But I'm not taking side on the issue:behindsofa:

poll out yesterday has 51% supporting independence for Scotland. Its been slowly creeping up since the 45% in the 2014 independence referendum. The reason why is also very clear in the deeper analysis in the poll. Over 65 years olds are 75% against independence. Below 65 years olds are 59% pro independence. Below 55years old its 65% pro independence and so on. Its a basically the pensioners who are keeping Scotland in the uk! They are a fairly large group and more importantly they turn out to vote at a far higher rate than younger people. Still, its absolutely certain from these age-voting intention statistics that Scottish independence is a matter of when not if. It a dead cert within 5 years IMO and it could actually happen within the next couple of years. Almost two thirds of Scots voted against leaving the EU so the political mismatch of Scotland and England (which has an 11 times larger population so gets what it votes for) is huge. Scotland has a mentality more like Scandinavian countries IMO.

alan
01-31-2020, 11:10 PM
I have to say I have zero Welsh connections (beyond maybe some distant genes from the 'old north' of Brythonic speakers in southern Scotland) but I think the Welsh have the best flag and national anthem of all the isles nations.

alan
01-31-2020, 11:18 PM
Na I'm keeping it, might drop the Union Jack though : )

Not sure if its common knowledge but its widely known as the butcher's apron in Ireland and Scotland. Think the term goes back to the Jacobite wars

rms2
06-05-2020, 04:32 AM
YFull currently lists the tmrca of L21 as 4300 ybp, which, subtracting 1950 as "the present", yields a date of 2350 BC. YFull gives L21 a "formed" date of 4500 ybp, which yields a date of 2550 BC. So, based on this, I guess it's reasonable to estimate that L21 arose sometime during the period 2550 - 2350 BC. Of course, YFull could be wrong, but that's what we have to work with.

In terms of ancient dna, the oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is that of the famous "Companion", who is believed to be the son of the famous Amesbury Archer. His remains are dated to 2470-2140 BC. The mid point of that range of dates is 2305 BC. The second oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is another one from Amesbury Down, I2457, dated to 2480-2031, with a mid point of 2256 BC.

Notice that both of those were already derived for L21, and they are, thus far, the oldest L21+ skeletons we know of with actual rc dates.

So, if YFull is right about the age of L21, and it arose sometime between 2550 and 2350 BC, and the very oldest L21 yet found in Britain or Ireland dates to between 2480 and 2140 BC, then how likely is it that L21 was born in either place?

Recall that L21 certainly appears to be a Beaker phenomenon. Olalde et al found no R1b of any kind in Britain prior to the arrival of the Beaker people.

If L21 was born in Britain, then those two skeletons would have to have been among the very first L21+ men.

Beaker dates to about 2400 BC in Britain and about 2300 BC in Ireland. If L21 actually arose in 2550 BC or very close to that date (perhaps even earlier), then there is no way it was born in Britain. If it arose closer to 2350 BC, then it could have been born in Britain, but that would have had to have happened very near to the initial arrival of Beaker there.

IMHO, L21 was born on the Continent and was brought to Britain by the first Beaker immigrants/invaders.

rms2
06-05-2020, 03:05 PM
I brought that up because I encountered a guy on a y-dna Facebook group recently who insists that L21 arose in Britain. Of course, this is a guy who thinks R1b got to western Europe via an original migration of Solutreans from North America. Yes, you read that right.

jdean
06-05-2020, 03:16 PM
I brought that up because I encountered a guy on a y-dna Facebook group recently who insists that L21 arose in Britain. Of course, this is a guy who thinks R1b got to western Europe via an original migration of Solutreans from North America. Yes, you read that right.

If I'm thinking of the same fellow luckily he dosn't post here anymore : )

rms2
06-05-2020, 03:25 PM
If I'm thinking of the same fellow luckily he dosn't post here anymore : )

I'm sure you're thinking of the same man.

He hasn't read Reich's book, yet he feels justified in saying he thinks Reich is wrong, despite not actually knowing Reich's reasoning.

He's incredibly, stupefyingly oblivious to the evidence.

jdean
06-05-2020, 03:48 PM
I'm sure you're thinking of the same man.

He hasn't read Reich's book, yet he feels justified in saying he thinks Reich is wrong, despite not actually knowing Reich's reasoning.

He's incredibly, stupefyingly oblivious to the evidence.

Also, rumour has it, an 'engineer' : )))))

rms2
06-05-2020, 05:06 PM
Also, rumour has it, an 'engineer' : )))))

Hopefully, he's good at that, especially if he is the kind of engineer who builds bridges.

misnomer
06-05-2020, 05:59 PM
YFull currently lists the tmrca of L21 as 4300 ybp, which, subtracting 1950 as "the present", yields a date of 2350 BC. YFull gives L21 a "formed" date of 4500 ybp, which yields a date of 2550 BC. So, based on this, I guess it's reasonable to estimate that L21 arose sometime during the period 2550 - 2350 BC. Of course, YFull could be wrong, but that's what we have to work with.


I think yfull just takes date of year of age estimate addition to database for calculation of ybp. https://www.yfull.com/faq/definitions/


When ybp is used in reference to an individual analyzed sample, "present" means the year in which the YFull age estimation information for the sample is added to the YTree. [ybp does not mean 1 January 1950 as used in some parts of the scientific community.] YFull's definition of ybp should not be confused with the formula used by YFull for age estimation estimation purposes: 144.41 years (assumed mutation rate) plus 60 years (assumed age of person who sample is analyzed by YFull).

jdean
06-05-2020, 06:06 PM
Hopefully, he's good at that, especially if he is the kind of engineer who builds bridges.

Don't know what type only that he was found of saying it as if it qualified his theories.

rms2
06-05-2020, 06:06 PM
misnomer,

Thanks for that. I thought they were using 1950, so everything needs to be adjusted by 70 years. Strange. "Present" is usually taken to be 1950.

alan
06-05-2020, 10:01 PM
misnomer,

Thanks for that. I thought they were using 1950, so everything needs to be adjusted by 70 years. Strange. "Present" is usually taken to be 1950.

You are write in terms of radiocarbon bp dates. Personally I cant stand the practice of using bp dates (or uncalibrated dates). It just seems totally pointless even if there is an explanation for why it started like that.

alan
06-05-2020, 10:07 PM
YFull currently lists the tmrca of L21 as 4300 ybp, which, subtracting 1950 as "the present", yields a date of 2350 BC. YFull gives L21 a "formed" date of 4500 ybp, which yields a date of 2550 BC. So, based on this, I guess it's reasonable to estimate that L21 arose sometime during the period 2550 - 2350 BC. Of course, YFull could be wrong, but that's what we have to work with.

In terms of ancient dna, the oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is that of the famous "Companion", who is believed to be the son of the famous Amesbury Archer. His remains are dated to 2470-2140 BC. The mid point of that range of dates is 2305 BC. The second oldest rc-dated L21+ skeleton is another one from Amesbury Down, I2457, dated to 2480-2031, with a mid point of 2256 BC.

Notice that both of those were already derived for L21, and they are, thus far, the oldest L21+ skeletons we know of with actual rc dates.

So, if YFull is right about the age of L21, and it arose sometime between 2550 and 2350 BC, and the very oldest L21 yet found in Britain or Ireland dates to between 2480 and 2140 BC, then how likely is it that L21 was born in either place?

Recall that L21 certainly appears to be a Beaker phenomenon. Olalde et al found no R1b of any kind in Britain prior to the arrival of the Beaker people.

If L21 was born in Britain, then those two skeletons would have to have been among the very first L21+ men.

Beaker dates to about 2400 BC in Britain and about 2300 BC in Ireland. If L21 actually arose in 2550 BC or very close to that date (perhaps even earlier), then there is no way it was born in Britain. If it arose closer to 2350 BC, then it could have been born in Britain, but that would have had to have happened very near to the initial arrival of Beaker there.

IMHO, L21 was born on the Continent and was brought to Britain by the first Beaker immigrants/invaders.

The immediately post-beaker bronze age L21 in southern France would be hard (though I suppose not impossible) to explain if L21 first occurred in Britain.

Webb
06-05-2020, 11:09 PM
Because no else seems interested we have our first DF27 Bronze Age in France. 1900 B.C., Alsace, and he is DF27>Z225. Interestingly there is another DF27>Z225, 1900 B.C., Iberia. Same lineage. YTree has Z225 at 2031 B.C., and YFull has it dated to 2480 B.C.

Webb
06-05-2020, 11:31 PM
If the Devon 1900 B,C. Bell Beaker is in fact DF27>DF83, then my first theory that some DF27 arrived to Britain and Ireland just after L21 and were regulated to the less hospitable areas of the Islands. Maybe they were only interested in resources.

MitchellSince1893
06-06-2020, 02:20 AM
DF27 does appear more common along the English Channel part of England.

rms2
06-06-2020, 02:08 PM
If the Devon 1900 B,C. Bell Beaker is in fact DF27>DF83, then my first theory that some DF27 arrived to Britain and Ireland just after L21 and were regulated to the less hospitable areas of the Islands. Maybe they were only interested in resources.

As you know, DF83 is my maternal grandfather's subclade of DF27, and the surname hotspot is in Devon.

37910

seferhabahir
06-06-2020, 06:42 PM
I brought that up because I encountered a guy on a y-dna Facebook group recently who insists that L21 arose in Britain. Of course, this is a guy who thinks R1b got to western Europe via an original migration of Solutreans from North America. Yes, you read that right.

Wow, no matter how long I stay away from the forum, this subject keeps getting debated (sort of). I don't see how L21 arose in Britain because of the identified SNPs and lineage of my L21 haplogroup that I have presumed came from some kind of L21 Bell Beaker migration southward out of Central Europe instead of from the British Isles. Yfull says my branch under L21/Z251/FG11986 formed maybe 4100 years ago, consistent with what I proposed many years ago when I got my Full Genomes results back (a very early test - as FGC11986 was found in my results). When it's proven that L21 arose in Britain I will buy everybody a beer (including the Solutrean guy).

rms2
06-06-2020, 07:57 PM
Wow, no matter how long I stay away from the forum, this subject keeps getting debated (sort of). I don't see how L21 arose in Britain because of the identified SNPs and lineage of my L21 haplogroup that I have presumed came from some kind of L21 Bell Beaker migration southward out of Central Europe instead of from the British Isles. Yfull says my branch under L21/Z251/FG11986 formed maybe 4100 years ago, consistent with what I proposed many years ago when I got my Full Genomes results back (a very early test - as FGC11986 was found in my results). When it's proven that L21 arose in Britain I will buy everybody a beer (including the Solutrean guy).

Yes, I was hoping Olalde et al would get the Amesbury Archer's genome and settle the matter, since his dental isotopes show he was born and raised on the Continent, probably in the Alpine region of south Germany or in Switzerland. They weren't able to, but they did succeed with "the Companion", buried just three meters away, believed to be the Archer's son because of an anomaly in the bones of their feet that the two men share, which proves at the very least they were close relatives.

The Companion is L21+.

To me that's enough, but probably nothing will ever be enough for some people.

rms2
06-07-2020, 10:28 PM
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I hope the paper on Dutch Single Grave rumored to be coming will have at least one continental Single Grave L21+ in it.

That would be sweet.

Webb
06-07-2020, 11:05 PM
Maybe I'm dreaming, but I hope the paper on Dutch Single Grave rumored to be coming will have at least one continental Single Grave L21+ in it.

That would be sweet.

Second to L21 I’m really hoping for a Z290 sample.

rms2
06-08-2020, 01:25 AM
Second to L21 I’m really hoping for a Z290 sample.

At least one of each would be nice.

seferhabahir
06-14-2020, 11:22 PM
Yfull says my branch under L21/Z251/FG11986 formed maybe 4100 years ago, consistent with what I proposed many years ago when I got my Full Genomes results back (a very early test - as FGC11986 was found in my results). When it's proven that L21 arose in Britain I will buy everybody a beer (including the Solutrean guy).

Well, it now appears that the Jewish Group of L21 ("co-discovered" by rms2, and now well-identified by SNP Z18106) is under FGC11984 as now noted below in my updated SNP signature and in the latest FTDNA haplotree.

Three people (none are Jewish based on the STR signature) taking Big Y-700 apparently tested positive for FGC11986, FGC11984, FGC11970 and FCG11990 (these last three SNPs still appear in the big Jewish block of the Z251 Big Tree, as I don't think Alex has any of these new results posted yet). These three Y-700 men likely are in some other far flung Bell Beaker related lineage of L21 (maybe it's in Europe but I can't really say) and under FGC11984 with a slew of new Big Y-700 SNPs as long as your arm (and about the same number of SNPs as in the Jewish Z18106 group, which numbers around 55 or so).

So the list of SNPs unique to R-L21 Ashkenazi Jews shrunk by three as these are now being shared with a small non-Jewish group, but the timing of a possible early pre-Jewish ancestor is still around the boundary of Bell Beaker and Nuragic culture (presuming the pre-Jewish ancestor might have lived in Sardinia or close by).

hartaisarlag
06-14-2020, 11:27 PM
Well, it now appears that the Jewish Group of L21 ("co-discovered" by rms2, and now well-identified by SNP Z18106) is under FGC11984 as now noted below in my updated SNP signature and in the latest FTDNA haplotree.

Three people (none are Jewish based on the STR signature) taking Big Y-700 apparently tested positive for FGC11986, FGC11984, FGC11970 and FCG11990 (these last three SNPs still appear in the big Jewish block of the Z251 Big Tree, as I don't think Alex has any of these new results posted yet). These three Y-700 men likely are in some other far flung Bell Beaker related lineage of L21 (maybe it's in Europe but I can't really say) and under FGC11984 with a slew of new Big Y-700 SNPs as long as your arm (and about the same number of SNPs as in the Jewish Z18106 group, which numbers around 55 or so).

So the list of SNPs unique to R-L21 Ashkenazi Jews shrunk by three as these are now being shared with a non-Jewish group, but the timing of a possible early pre-Jewish ancestor is still around the boundary of Bell Beaker and Nuraghic culture (presuming the pre-Jewish ancestor might have lived in Sardinia or close by).

What do you make of your direct sibling branch, R-FT120215 (Thomasson), found on FTDNA?

seferhabahir
06-14-2020, 11:46 PM
What do you make of your direct sibling branch, R-FT120215 (Thomasson), found on FTDNA?

I looked at Thomasson's STR signature in the FTDNA Thompson Project and he (and his other Thomasons) don't look anything like the Z18106 (Z251-11EE) Jewish group, also 100% reliably identifiable from DYS388=11 which is not to be found anywhere in R-L21 except with living Jewish testers. Given that each branch has 55 or so unique SNPs, I would have to think that these sibling branches split off 3800-3900 years ago somewhere. This may have been in central Europe with the Thomasson branch heading north and the Z18106 branch heading south. It's difficult to speculate, but I really don't think the branching happened in the British Isles as some like to suggest.

I remain pretty convinced of the genetic isolation of the Z18106 group for 4000 years and maybe the same is true for this sibling Thomasson branch. I don't know where they would have been hanging out, but it would be hard for me to believe that is was in the British Isles, or Sicily or Sardinia. More likely somewhere in between (like central Europe), and the two groups or individuals went their separate ways.

seferhabahir
06-15-2020, 12:15 AM
I have been waiting 10 years for some group of non-Jewish L21 testers to show up with DYS388=11 or a whole slew of the Z18106 SNPs that would point to a much more recent entry point into the Jewish people. On other forums (I won't name them) before the advent of NGS Y-chromosome testing and the knowledge of all the SNPs belonging to the pool of Jewish L21 testers, I have had to fight off (well, just strongly argue the point) that I was not the result of a recent Medieval Age conversion event or some other kind of recent introgression into the Jewish people. Even the possibility of a Roman Empire conversion (a much more reasonable suggestion, since conversion into Judaism in the Middle Ages simply did not happen often, if at all), isn't really supported by the group of 55 SNPs unique to Jewish L21, leading me to speculate on some other mechanism for how this group of Jewish L21 came to be.

This group of R-FT120215 (Thomasson and friends) is interesting, but only in the sense that it reduced the number of Jewish precursor SNPs by a few. If they had ended up sharing 15 or 20 of the SNPs with Jewish testers, then I would have to rethink a lot of things. Basically, I have been asking the same question for a long time, namely "Where are all the non-Jewish men who share the Jewish STR signature and SNPs, who supposedly would be descendants of all the male siblings that did not convert to Judaism whenever said conversion of their brother might have happened." Well, since they never show up, I have concluded that the entry point into the Jewish people was not a recent conversion event, but more likely a long ago local assimilation into the Hebrew population closer to the beginning of Judaism and not some later Roman Empire or Medieval thing.

Just my opinion, but at least it lets me think my ancestor could have been at Sinai (at least that's what I like to believe whenever Shavuot comes around).