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JMcB
06-05-2017, 04:50 AM
As there is usually a dearth of information on I-M253 floating around. I thought I'd post an excerpt from Carlos Quiles' recent essay for those who may be of I1 descent and are interested.

Indo-European demic diffusion model
2nd edition, revised and updated
https://indo-european.info/indo-european-demic-diffusion-model-2.pdf


With a tip of the hat to user lukaszM who so kindly posted it yesterday.


It has been asserted, based on all samples studied from the Palaeolithic, that western hunter-gatherers (as defined in admixture analysis) represent a population that expanded from a south-eastern European refugium following the last Ice Age around 15000 years ago – displacing or admixing with the existing population of western Europe (Mathieson et al. 2017)

Haplogroup I1-M253 split from the common stem at approximately the same time as I2- M438. The first example is found in Neolithic Linear Pottery culture in Hungary (Szecsenyi-Nagy et al. 2015), which suggests its distribution in central Europe before the Corded Ware and Yamna expansions. The next sample found in aDNA records is from the Nordic Bronze Age in Angmollan, ca. 1400 BC (Allentoft et al. 2015) .
R1b1a1a2-M269 lineages are found in early (Sebber Skole8, ca. 1410 BC) and late Nordic Bronze Age (Angmollan, ca. 670 BC), while haplogroup I1-M253 is found in Angmollan (ca. 1400 BC), and haplogroup I-M170 in Angmollan (ca. 1360) and Abekas (ca. 1255 BC), suggesting a south-north cline in culture and population in Scandinavia during these times of ethnolinguistic change.

The modern population with I1-M253 lineages is centred in northern Scandinavia near Skagerrak strait and Kattegat sea area, and shows a TMRCA ca. 2600 BC. On the other hand, R1a1a1b1a3-Z284/S221 lineage (formed ca. 2700 BC, TMRCA ca. 2300) – probably associated with the expansion of the Corded Ware cultures in Scandinavia – shows a distribution in modern Scandinavian populations located further to the north and west of that zone. If invasions from southern to northern Scandinavia are supposed to have happened in a south-to-north route, through the Øresund strait into the Skåne region, peoples of I1-M253 lineages should be assumed to have migrated from northern Europe during the proposed expansion of Beaker peoples into Scandinavia, and thrived after that, both populations pushing back the previous Corded-Ware-associated R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages, which in turn had probably displaced or replaced the earlier Neolithic I2-M438 lineages.

It is difficult to ascertain whether both lineages, R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 and I1-M253, were already mixed in northern Germany before their northward migration into Jutland, or remained separated until forming a Pre-Germanic community later. If an early mixed R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106–I1-M253 society with a common language is to be supported, it seems to need further explanations as to the clear late differentiation into territorially- divided lineages, with late founder effects having simplified to a greater extent the situation east and west of the Øresund strait.

8 Additional information xP312, xA2150 from Vince Tilroe.


After an obscure period of internal development, the situation in Northern Germany and Scandinavia before the Iron Age would have probably corresponded loosely to the present situation, with the R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 / I1-M253 divide possibly located to the east of the current cline, at the Øresund strait, given the quite late invasion of Jutland by Danes.

The irruption of Germanic peoples in central, east, and west Europe including the Roman Empire – the Barbarian Invasions from Classical sources, renamed the Migration Period since the Romantic era – suggests a R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106-dominated West Germanic area, and Viking migrations point to different clans belonging to R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106, I1- M253, and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages in the North Germanic area

(see below Figure 22).
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/antiquity.jpg


The modern distribution of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 (Figure 17) is roughly coincident with the expansion of West Germanic with the medieval Ostsiedlung, showing a west-east cline compatible with the Germanization of Slavs to the east of the Elbe. Although modern population samples are difficult to assess without genealogical information – due to the expulsion of Germans after World War II –, medieval samples from Podlažice (ca. 1180 AD) in Czech lands and Nicolaus Copernicus’ family origin from Koperniki near Nysa in Silesia before the 14th century (Bogdanowicz et al. 2009) seem to support the expansion of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 lineages associated with German settlers of the Holy Roman Empire east of the Elbe

(see below Figure 31).
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/medieval.jpg


The question of the dialectal nature of East Germanic remains a purely linguistic one, but I1-M253 and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages scattered throughout Europe seem to support the classical description of East Germanic tribes migrating from Scandinavia to the east of the Elbe, and thus its connection with the Nordic branch.

spruithean
09-03-2017, 09:58 PM
After an obscure period of internal development, the situation in Northern Germany and Scandinavia before the Iron Age would have probably corresponded loosely to the present situation, with the R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 / I1-M253 divide possibly located to the east of the current cline, at the Øresund strait, given the quite late invasion of Jutland by Danes.

The irruption of Germanic peoples in central, east, and west Europe including the Roman Empire – the Barbarian Invasions from Classical sources, renamed the Migration Period since the Romantic era – suggests a R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106-dominated West Germanic area, and Viking migrations point to different clans belonging to R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106, I1- M253, and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages in the North Germanic area

(see below Figure 22).
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/.../antiquity.jpg


The modern distribution of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 (Figure 17) is roughly coincident with the expansion of West Germanic with the medieval Ostsiedlung, showing a west-east cline compatible with the Germanization of Slavs to the east of the Elbe. Although modern population samples are difficult to assess without genealogical information – due to the expulsion of Germans after World War II –, medieval samples from Podlažice (ca. 1180 AD) in Czech lands and Nicolaus Copernicus’ family origin from Koperniki near Nysa in Silesia before the 14th century (Bogdanowicz et al. 2009) seem to support the expansion of R1b1a1a2a1a1-U106 lineages associated with German settlers of the Holy Roman Empire east of the Elbe

(see below Figure 31).
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...5/medieval.jpg


The question of the dialectal nature of East Germanic remains a purely linguistic one, but I1-M253 and R1a1a1b1a3-Z284 lineages scattered throughout Europe seem to support the classical description of East Germanic tribes migrating from Scandinavia to the east of the Elbe, and thus its connection with the Nordic branch.

Interesting opinion on the West, North and East Germanic Y-DNA makeup. Though West Germanic groups couldn't have been entirely R-U106 they would have picked up more haplogroups from the start and as they expanded.

I am curious, I seem to have missed any definitive information on the Teesside Anglo-Saxon being wholly Anglo-Saxon. Could it not be possible he was partially Norse? On gedmatch he seems to plot close to West Norwegians/Norwegians on majority of the oracles. Unless that just signifies his Anglo-Saxon ancestry is rather northern in origin?

rms2
09-03-2017, 10:12 PM
Ken Nordtvedt was the I-M253 expert not too long ago. I think he still holds forth on the Rootsweb I-M253 forum. It would be worth looking for what he has to say. The man is a genius.

JMcB
09-04-2017, 12:11 AM
Ken Nordtvedt was the I-M253 expert not too long ago. I think he still holds forth on the Rootsweb I-M253 forum. It would be worth looking for what he has to say. The man is a genius.

Unfortunately, Nordtvedt seems to have retired from the scene these days. Which is not surprising, as he's almost 80 by now. He very kindly read my STR results for me when I first got them back in 2015 but he's very rarely heard from on Rootsweb anymore. I read just about everything he wrote in the archives but I gave up checking the M253 forum because it laid fallow for months at a time.

Nevertheless, you can still find most of his posts there and there is a web page with some of his work that is still available. See:

Ken Nordtvedt Documents

https://onedrive.live.com/?id=8B35ADFFC37790D0%2189654&cid=8B35ADFFC37790D0

You're right though, he is highly intelligent and a physicist by profession.

P.S. I like your new avatar. ;-)

spruithean
10-22-2017, 06:57 PM
It'd be interesting to hear Nordtvedt's opinion on the new sub-haplogroups of I1 and what he believes to be their origins. I know his early STR based organization for I1 was beyond useful and it actually held out fairly well and even coincided with various SNPs.

From what I've seen with checking the rootsweb M253 topics it's pretty inactive there and not as lively as it once was.