L193 in the south of Scotland - the 'Highland Host'

[Jon]

Hi All,

I've corresponded privately with some people about this, but I wanted to post here to get some opinions. If the moderator feels this should be re-posted elsewhere for relevance, fine by me!

Basically this concerns a period of Scottish history known as the 'killing times' - when covenanters were being persecuted for their religious beliefs. The SW of Scotland, in particular Ayrshire and Galloway, were hotbeds of this religious activity. So much so that in around 1678 a huge Highland army was mustered (around 10,000 men!) to invade the region and 'pacify' the locals. They didn't stay long, but there were apparently many stragglers (non soldiers) who came down with them, and it has been noted that they often left very difficult circumstances in the highlands. It seems not unlikely that some may have stayed. There were also sporadic reports of incidents of rape.

Many of the mustered army were from Perthshire - commanded by the Chief of the Glenorchy Campbells.

So what does all this have to do with us? Well, I was wondering, with the apparent Perthshire focus of a lot of L193, and the difficulty of some (including myself) to reconcile Ayrshire ancestry with an older L193 heritage - could this at least partly be a genetic trace of the Highland Host? I include a link below, and there are many other sources online with info on this. I really would appreciate some thoughts on this one, especially if you think I'm way off mark!

http://www.scotlandmag.com/magazine/issue49/12009599.html

Best,

Jon

[TigerMW]

Hi All,

I've corresponded privately with some people about this, but I wanted to post here to get some opinions. If the moderator feels this should be re-posted elsewhere for relevance, fine by me!

Basically this concerns a period of Scottish history known as the 'killing times' - when covenanters were being persecuted for their religious beliefs. The SW of Scotland, in particular Ayrshire and Galloway, were hotbeds of this religious activity. So much so that in around 1678 a huge Highland army was mustered (around 10,000 men!) to invade the region and 'pacify' the locals. They didn't stay long, but there were apparently many stragglers (non soldiers) who came down with them, and it has been noted that they often left very difficult circumstances in the highlands. It seems not unlikely that some may have stayed. There were also sporadic reports of incidents of rape.

Many of the mustered army were from Perthshire - commanded by the Chief of the Glenorchy Campbells.

So what does all this have to do with us? Well, I was wondering, with the apparent Perthshire focus of a lot of L193, and the difficulty of some (including myself) to reconcile Ayrshire ancestry with an older L193 heritage - could this at least partly be a genetic trace of the Highland Host? I include a link below, and there are many other sources online with info on this. I really would appreciate some thoughts on this one, especially if you think I'm way off mark!

http://www.scotlandmag.com/magazine/issue49/12009599.html

Best,

Jon

Do you see any geographic patterns in the early branching of L193 or its immediate upstream subclades?

What is the cause for the focus on Perthshire? - surnames, frequency?

[Jon]

Hi Mike,

Ann has posted more often than me on this Perthshire link. It just seems that more and more groups are finding common ancestry pointing to more central areas (esp the old Mormaer areas of Lennox and Menteith etc.). I also have a family legend that we came from Perthshire, where Sharp is found at its highest frequency in the whole of the UK in the 1881 census, and, of course, before that:

http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=SHARP&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name

The stats I got from SDNA back in the day cited the Hebrides and Perthshire as the main hotspots for their L193 customers. That has always foxed me. Since then I've been trying to think what might link these areas together...

[Jon]

I forgot to ask, Mike...do you have any ideas now, with the new wave of testing, regarding early branching/geographics in L193 or S5668? I think I posted before that S5668 looks Irish in the early branches, but I'm speculating of course.

[TigerMW]

I forgot to ask, Mike...do you have any ideas now, with the new wave of testing, regarding early branching/geographics in L193 or S5668? I think I posted before that S5668 looks Irish in the early branches, but I'm speculating of course.

S5668 was a long time ago, may be 2000-1800 BC. There are branches that are Swedish and Belgium with British Isles members. Given that Wessex (South/SouthWest England) appears to be the first Bell Beaker folks in the British Isles in a big way and they are pretty solid L21+ I think it is likely L513 and S5668 came in to England from across the Channel but that would not necessarily be the case if L513 lagged on the continent and come to the Isles from some latter groups like the Tumulus (or pushed by), the Urnfielders (or pushed by) and Hallstatt (or pushed by).

[Jon]

Any ideas about L193? It still seems pretty Scottish judging by surnames and MDKA etc...but I'm just going on what I see in the projects.