PDA

View Full Version : From R-L150 to R-CTS7822



Pages : 1 [2]

Joe B
05-10-2014, 03:15 PM
Very good. Do you know if he is going to order downstream SNP tests? If his results are out, then we should be getting some more CTS7822 results very very soon.Based on your observation about DYS446=14 in R1b-CTS9219 haplotyes and DYS446=13 in R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes, he should consider testing for CTS9219. He is in group _b. R1b-M269: L23+ Z2103+ Z2105+ L277- L584- should test CTS7822 until he gets moved to a new group. Also found in the National clans (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Bashqort_clans/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) project, 011. R1b+Z2105, MASSAGETAES-BURYJANS LINE.

Joe, my brain is a little foggy this morning. I thought that FTDNA was using Next Gen Sequencing. From what I've read though, Sanger sequencing is the standard, so this is good news indeed. Coffee, coffee and more coffee. I made an assumption about the testing method based on how FTDNA built the new tree. Best not to ass/u/me anything if it had something to do with that new tree. The Methodology Behind the 2014 Y-DNA Haplotree (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/introducing-2014-y-dna-haplotree/)
In some cases, SNPs that were on the 2010 Y-DNA Haplotree didn’t work well on the GenoChip, so the team used Sanger sequencing on anonymous samples to test those SNPs and to confirm ambiguous locations. For example, if it wasn’t clear if a clade was a brother (parallel) clade, or a downstream clade, they tested for it. Wonder if NGS economics would even allow for single SNP testing?

Joe B
05-16-2014, 03:43 PM
More CTS7822/Z2110 results have come in for a couple of Bulgarians. Very importantly, one was CTS7822-. We need those negative results too for ISOGG. The Bulgarian project continues to do great work. Thanks eastera for posting the results on the Molgen forum.
248252 CTS7822+
248268 CTS7822- (!)
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=1480

brygian
05-16-2014, 04:46 PM
More CTS7822/Z2110 results have come in for a couple of Bulgarians. Very importantly, one was CTS7822-. We need those negative results too for ISOGG. The Bulgarian project continues to do great work. Thanks eastera for posting the results on the Molgen forum.
248252 CTS7822+
248268 CTS7822- (!)
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=1480

184355 and 248301 from the Bulgarian project are also awaiting CTS7822 as far as I know.

smal
05-16-2014, 05:19 PM
248268 CTS7822- (!)

12 markers are not enough for the good SNP prediction.
248268 = 70159 Miller DF19+

brygian
05-16-2014, 05:48 PM
12 markers are not enough for the good SNP prediction.
248268 = 70159 Miller DF19+

248268 has DYS385a=12 which is not typical for CTS7822.

Joe B
05-16-2014, 06:26 PM
12 markers are not enough for the good SNP prediction.
248268 = 70159 Miller DF19+

248268 has DYS385a=12 which is not typical for CTS7822.
Somebody mentioned a haplogroup predictor for FTDNA project administrators. I'm very sure that a more accurate Y-DNA STR modal could be constructed for CTS7822/Z2110 and CTS9219 that would help the project administrators.

#248252 is an example of very efficient SNP testing. Z2103+, CTS7822+ Apparently, the Bulgarian project does a lot of testing from their general fund. Good job.

Joe B
05-22-2014, 04:58 PM
An Armenian R1b-CTS7822+ can be found in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp) and the Armenian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?vgroup=armeniadnaproject&vgroup=armeniadnaproject&section=ycolorized). If these results can be replicated in other Armenians or other ethnic groups from Anatolia and Southwest Asia, the distribution of R1b-CTS7822 will no longer be limited to Europe.
#287943 R1b1a1a4 CTS7822+ 67 STRs

Silesian
05-22-2014, 05:35 PM
An Armenian R1b-CTS7822+ can be found in the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=ysnp) and the Armenian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?vgroup=armeniadnaproject&vgroup=armeniadnaproject§ion=ycolorized). If these results can be replicated in other Armenians or other ethnic groups from Anatolia and Southwest Asia, the distribution of R1b-CTS7822 will no longer be limited to Europe.
#287943 R1b1a1a4 CTS7822+ 67 STRs

Thanks for catching that, good work.He might even fit R-CTS 9219 pattern.
DYS-449{30-33}
DYS-459B{10}
DYS-392{13}
DYS-464A{14}
DYS-426{12}
DYS-446{14}

Albanian project should test their one member also DYS-446{15}

Joe B
05-22-2014, 06:22 PM
The Ossetian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) has a R1b1a2a2 Z2105+ ( CTS9219+? ) group with 15 haplotypes. Two of them are tested to 111 STRs, but none have been tested for CTS7822 or CTS9219 that I can tell. Does CTS9219+ look like a good prediction? Does anybody know if they are currently testing for CTS7822 and CTS9219 in the Ossetian project?

brygian
05-22-2014, 06:27 PM
248301 from the Bulgarian project has tested CTS7822- which was somehow expected (DYS385a=12). We are still waiting for 184355's CTS7822 results. I am almost sure that he will be positive.

Silesian
05-22-2014, 06:39 PM
The Ossetian DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ossetian/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) has a R1b1a2a2 Z2105+ ( CTS9219+? ) group with 15 haplotypes. Two of them are tested to 111 STRs, but none have been tested for CTS7822 or CTS9219 that I can tell. Does CTS9219+ look like a good prediction? Does anybody know if they are currently testing for CTS7822 and CTS9219 in the Ossetian project?

There might be a cluster forming R-CTS-7822+ with the region adjacent with Georgians it is hard to know without snp test, some str's are lining up.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults

Joe B
05-25-2014, 06:44 AM
Couple of new R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes that have 111 STRs. Both look like they should test for CTS9219 because they have DYS446=14. 261086 is in the Polish DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?vgroup=polish&section=ysnp). N66406 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?vgroup=IberianDNA&section=ysnp) is the first Iberian R1b-7822 and has a very distinct DYS385=11-11 that can be seen in a few other haplotypes.
Found with an assist from Semargl (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/2244/).

brygian
05-25-2014, 09:26 AM
Couple of new R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes that have 111 STRs. Both look like they should test for CTS9219 because they have DYS446=14. 261086 is in the Polish DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/polish/default.aspx?vgroup=polish§ion=ysnp). N66406 (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?vgroup=IberianDNA§ion=ysnp) is the first Iberian R1b-7822 and has a very distinct DYS385=11-11 that can be seen in a few other haplotypes.
Found with an assist from Semargl (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/2244/).

These must be fresh results. I scanned FTDNA for CTS7822 and CTS9219 last week. The haplotypes are interesting. Does anybody know if the presumed CTS9219+ in the Ossetian project are going to take CTS9219?

Geolocke
05-29-2014, 04:42 PM
Still waiting on my CTS7822 results. I ordered from FTDNA on April 29. FTDNA has changed the way they report pending results. On the Kit page, Pending Results tells me 2 - 6 weeks (instead of a date), but on the PM page (GAP) I still see the date of June 19. I guess it's better not to report predicted results dates if there's a chance of having to change that date. In the mean time, I'm dreaming of SNPs test and ways to get new kits to join my projects. Patience may be a virtue, but I sure wish I could have the results *now*! :)

Rathna
05-29-2014, 04:53 PM
Still waiting on my CTS7822 results. I ordered from FTDNA on April 29. FTDNA has changed the way they report pending results. On the Kit page, Pending Results tells me 2 - 6 weeks (instead of a date), but on the PM page (GAP) I still see the date of June 19. I guess it's better not to report predicted results dates if there's a chance of having to change that date. In the mean time, I'm dreaming of SNPs test and ways to get new kits to join my projects. Patience may be a virtue, but I sure wish I could have the results *now*! :)

Geolocke, I am waiting for Mattoli's test about L277 from 1.17.2014, even though I know he will be positive, because a person who matches closely him has been tested from 23andme and resulted positive, confirming my hypothesis. You will certainly be CTS7822/Z2110+ as I think having said to you many times in the past. At this point if FTDNA will find you negative, we'll have certainly to think they are wrong.

But where have you put your FMS?

Geolocke
05-29-2014, 08:32 PM
Rathna, I have had trouble uploading my FMS. I will try to get back to it soon and figure out what I am not doing correctly/ I will be traveling the next several days so it will probably be later next week before I get back to it. My apologies for not having followed through on this before now.

brygian
05-31-2014, 06:54 AM
184355 and 248301 from the Bulgarian project are also awaiting CTS7822 as far as I know.

184355's results are now available - he is CTS7822+ as expected.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 07:12 AM
184355's results are now available - he is CTS7822+ as expected.

Of course you are free to test whoever you want and to spend your money, but so long ago and for many times I have already said that these tests are useless. After having testing them for Z2110/CTS7822, what have you understood? That they are R-Z2110*? Not, because pretty all these people are CTS9219:
1) The EE cluster
2) The "Balkan cluster" (which is the case of Dimov/184355)
and we could understand from the STRs values also who is L277, L584 (I think having understood also who is PF7580*) etc.

brygian
05-31-2014, 07:23 AM
Of course you are free to test whoever you want and to spend your money, but so long ago and for many times I have already said that these tests are useless. After having testing them for Z2110/CTS7822, what have you understood? That they are R-Z2110*? Not, because pretty all these people are CTS9219:
1) The EE cluster
2) The "Balkan cluster" (which is the case of Dimov/184355)
and we could understand from the STRs values also who is L277, L584 (I think having understood also who is PF7580*) etc.

Rathna, can you recommend a testing strategy for the Z2103 subgroup on the Bulgarian project?

Rathna
05-31-2014, 07:44 AM
Rathna, can you recommend a testing strategy for the Z2103 subgroup on the Bulgarian project?

brygian, I have always been in contact (and from many years), above all on eng.molgen, with the admins of the Bulgarian FTDNA Project (eastara and elenak) and I have always answered their questions, saying what I am saying to you now. I they followed other people, who of course understand much less than me about genetics and all the other, I am not guilty of it.
Anyway, if you want, I may consider again the Bulgarian Project as to the R1b haplogroup.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 08:42 AM
brygian, I have always been in contact (and from many years), above all on eng.molgen, with the admins of the Bulgarian FTDNA Project (eastara and elenak) and I have always answered their questions, saying what I am saying to you now. I they followed other people, who of course understand much less than me about genetics and all the other, I am not guilty of it.
Anyway, if you want, I may consider again the Bulgarian Project as to the R1b haplogroup.

I am seeing that the Bulgarian FTDNA Project is divided by the ethnic origin, but of course our Y is pretty always older than our languages or religion, but who has a recent documented origin elsewhere, I think he should be assigned to that people. For instance
248292 Pietro Comin (1892-1923) Chioggia, Italia Italy R-L23
is probably an Italian R-L23 and should be understood within the Italian pool, or
189660 Ömer Halaç-Kirjali Bulgaria R-L23
should be understood with the Turk R-L23.
I have spoken a lot about your case (Ahmed Hodzha Sertkehayov, d.1912 (Pomak)), and your being R-Z2110+/CTS9219+ has demonstrated that the "Balkan cluster", which you belong to, is R-CTS9219* (it remains to see which subcluster, and these tests could be interesting and not to test a person who belongs to this cluster for Z2110 or CTS9219). Unfortunately the Bulgarian project has many people tested only for 12 markers, and the "Balkan cluster" has not only DYS385=11-11, but also DYS459a=8, etc. Anyway we may presuppose that who has DYS385=11-11 belongs to this cluster, thus not only
184355 Dimo Ivanov Dimov (1869-1922) Gramatikovo, BG
but also
248271 Ivan Dimkov (1866-1913) Gorno Brodi, Gr. Mak.
Of course they, with
248252 Hristo Alex. Gagov (1880-1923), Strouga, Macedonia,
are also CTS9219. It is useless to test them for these SNPs, better for some SNPs downstream CTS9219.
About the other Bulgarian R-L23, many of them have only 12 markers. Only
249762 Kirchev, 1913, Stara Zagora, BG
and
248301 Sande Trenovski (1880-1974), Gabrovo, Macedonia
have more. About Trenovski I wrote to eastara on eng.molgen (May 17 2014):

"But Trenovsky has more data and above all these series:
8 10 10 8 11 11
11 13 12 11 12 12
For the first he could be also R-L584, but also an outlier of the Balkan cluster R-CTS7822/Z2110. For this it will be interesting his SNP test.
If we had 111 markers we could say more: L584 has DYS434 = 8 (and not the modal 9 of all the other subclades)."

brygian
05-31-2014, 09:41 AM
What SNPs beneath CTS9219 could we test? I have already been tested for the ones listed on the new FTDNA tree with Geno 2.0 and all are negative. I don't trust the Geno 2.0 results that much now after the PF7585 test that I took at YSEQ. Maybe the best strategy for us is to order Big Y or FGC in search for new branches of CTS9219?

Rathna
05-31-2014, 10:10 AM
What SNPs beneath CTS9219 could we test? I have already been tested for the ones listed on the new FTDNA tree with Geno 2.0 and all are negative. I don't trust the Geno 2.0 results that much now after the PF7585 test that I took at YSEQ. Maybe the best strategy for us is to order Big Y or FGC in search for new branches of CTS9219?

I didn't follow this stuff in these last days, but I saw some SNPs found downstream CTS9219 and certainly smal may respond better than me. Anyway, if one may spend (and the Full Genome for a little more than 1000$ , for we Europeans about 750 Euro, is very attractive), Big Y or Full Genome would be the best choice. I don't do it, because I hope to understand everything through my Chromo2 and the about new 15 SNPs I found, but unfortunately who did Big Y doesn't share his results, as Ware, who belongs to the English R-Z2110*, and I received only the data of Nochev's, but we would need the BAM file, that I don't know if was received by eastara or elenak. And, as Richard Rocca says on another thread, it would be necessary that it were examined by FGC to see also the negative SNPs.

brygian
05-31-2014, 10:30 AM
The problem with these kits in the Bulgarian project is that they are managed. The project doesn't have money to order Big Y for them so even if I take Big Y or FGC, I don't have any other data to compare with. We can of course compare the eventual new SNPs against data from other people under Z2103 to rule out the ones above CTS9219.

It is really strange that people pay $700 for Big Y and then don't share the results - what's the point then? If you just want to find your terminal SNP on the FTDNA Y-tree, you can order Y37 and a couple of SNP tests and spare quite a lot of money.

smal
05-31-2014, 10:46 AM
I know only a single sample from 1KGP - HG1515 9219+ that has CTS11767, CTS9230, CTS7959, CTS9906 SNPs from new FTDNA haplotree.
Rathna, I've studied bam file of Nochev and not found any SNPs you published from your Chromo2. Nochev's bam file contains more then 50 private SNPs of a good quality. Furthermore, I've compared Nochev's data with the PGP157 sample (R-Z2110*) and again not found new common SNPs for both NGS or your Chromo2. R-Z2110 has a big diversity and we must have more BigY like tests to grow up the tree.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 12:41 PM
I know only a single sample from 1KGP - HG1515 9219+ that has CTS11767, CTS9230, CTS7959, CTS9906 SNPs from new FTDNA haplotree.
Rathna, I've studied bam file of Nochev and not found any SNPs you published from your Chromo2. Nochev's bam file contains more then 50 private SNPs of a good quality. Furthermore, I've compared Nochev's data with the PGP157 sample (R-Z2110*) and again not found new common SNPs for both NGS or your Chromo2. R-Z2110 has a big diversity and we must have more BigY like tests to grow up the tree.

I thank you very much for these information I didn't know before, and this confirms my previous thought, that also we R-Z2110* are separated from many thousands of years and also an apparent closeness in the STRs is unreliable. Also the English R-Z2110*, I thought in the past close to me an perhaps of Roman origin, I am thinking in these last times actually very far from me, just because they have mutations in very slow mutating markers even though they are close in others, but this was just my theory of my 3 or 4 golden principles: mutations happen around the modal, etc. etc.

smal
05-31-2014, 01:06 PM
For comparison, the studying of L584 samples (Goldschlager, PGP70, Assyrian and so on) has shown that they have 10 SNPs on L584 level. After this bifurcation point the Goldschlager-PGP70 pair has 43 new common SNPs.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 01:17 PM
For comparison, the studying of L584 samples (Goldschlager, PGP70, Assyrian and so on) has shown that they have 10 SNPs on L584 level. After this bifurcation point the Goldschlager-PGP70 pair has 43 new common SNPs.

But this does mean only when Z2110 was born, i.e. if 50 singletons ago, perhaps 7500 years by counting 1 SNP 150 years which is the lowest value used also from Michal.
It would be interesting to count the singletons between Z2110 and CTS9219, and probably also between them there are many hundreds or thousands of years. Already the diversity between the EE cluster and the "Balkan" one within the R-CTS9219 is great at the STRs level.

What you say about L584 demonstrates that they derive from Z2107 at about the same time and that probably Goldschlager descends from an L584 separated about 6500 years ago from the others. Also about this I wrote a lot, but only more data will bring us to certain conclusions.

P.S. But who is PGP70?

smal
05-31-2014, 01:34 PM
You can find some data for PGP samples here (https://my.pgp-hms.org/users).

Humanist
05-31-2014, 01:44 PM
f 50 singletons ago, [I]perhaps 7500 years by counting 1 SNP 150 years which is the lowest value used also from Michal.

I certainly have respect for Michal, but 1 SNP = 150 years may not necessarily stand the test of time. Even if it is the lowest of the current estimates.

Humanist
05-31-2014, 01:48 PM
What you say about L584 demonstrates that they derive from Z2107 at about the same time and that probably Goldschlager descends from an L584 separated about 6500 years ago from the others. Also about this I wrote a lot, but only more data will bring us to certain conclusions.

P.S. But who is PGP70?


You can find some data for PGP samples here (https://my.pgp-hms.org/users).

PGP70


Maternal grandmother: Country of origin Russian Federation
Paternal grandmother: Country of origin Belarus
Paternal grandfather: Country of origin Belarus
Maternal grandfather: Country of origin Russian Federation

Rathna
05-31-2014, 01:58 PM
I was looking at it, but which PC and program have you for downloading all these data? Of course I didn't want to know his name, surname, etc., because here there are medical information and privacy, but for our research it would be important to know his ethnic origin. A man, white, from Massachusetts, may be everyone, but the origin could be interesting also to know that of Goldschlager's. Anyway your researches, also on blind, are very interesting. Of course by his diseases we could know something about his probable origin, but anyway any research about this is better that each of us takes for himself.
To Humanist I could say that a post of parasar, here, has probably demonstrated that a confirmed SNP in our line of descent may be worth also 350 years or more.
Time will tell.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 02:06 PM
Maternal grandmother: Country of origin Russian Federation
Paternal grandmother: Country of origin Belarus
Paternal grandfather: Country of origin Belarus
Maternal grandfather: Country of origin Russian Federation

From these data he is clearly a Jew closely linked to Goldschlager. Of course this doesn't say anything about the ancient origin of L584 and of those lines, like the Assyrian ones, separated many thousands of years ago.
Having all the SNPs in common, it does mean that they are closely related, probably from the same family. It would be interesting to compare them to Silver or others.
The research continues.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 02:15 PM
Maternal grandmother: Country of origin Russian Federation
Paternal grandmother: Country of origin Belarus
Paternal grandfather: Country of origin Belarus
Maternal grandfather: Country of origin Russian Federation

From these data he is clearly a Jew closely linked to Goldschlager. Of course this doesn't say anything about the ancient origin of L584 and of those lines, like the Assyrian ones, separated many thousands of years ago.
Having all the SNPs in common, it does mean that they are closely related, probably from the same family. It would be interesting to compare them to Silver or others.
The research continues.

Now also a child could give a name and a surname to him, and this demonstrates that no secret is possible on the web.
Who likes secrets shouldn't do any test.

smal
05-31-2014, 02:28 PM
Rathna, they have many private SNPs although. It is hard to say how many because is is difficult to separate many of private SNPs from sequencing errors.

Pillar_of_fire
05-31-2014, 02:43 PM
I know only a single sample from 1KGP - HG1515 9219+ that has CTS11767, CTS9230, CTS7959, CTS9906 SNPs from new FTDNA haplotree.
Rathna, I've studied bam file of Nochev and not found any SNPs you published from your Chromo2. Nochev's bam file contains more then 50 private SNPs of a good quality. Furthermore, I've compared Nochev's data with the PGP157 sample (R-Z2110*) and again not found new common SNPs for both NGS or your Chromo2. R-Z2110 has a big diversity and we must have more BigY like tests to grow up the tree.

Smal, did you have a chance to extract the STR data from the BAM file? What are the values of Nochev for DYS441 and DYS461?

Rathna
05-31-2014, 02:51 PM
Smal, did you have a chance to extract the STR data from the BAM file? What are the values of Nochev for DYS441 and DYS461?

I'd bet on DYS441=14 and DYS461=11, which are also mine, but anyway it would be interesting to verify.

P.S. But STRs were possible from FG, I don't know if from Big Y, but this would go against the FTDNA interests.

Pillar_of_fire
05-31-2014, 03:30 PM
I'd bet on DYS441=14 and DYS461=11, which are also mine, but anyway it would be interesting to verify.

P.S. But STRs were possible from FG, I don't know if from Big Y, but this would go against the FTDNA interests.

Yes, STRs are there.Though the quality is uncertain - a person tested for Y67 hasn't got some of the 67 STRs in the BAM file of the BIG Y test. I did not go deeper to check if for the remaining the values were the same. Also these STR values cannot be used for STR matching in FTDNA.

smal
05-31-2014, 03:50 PM
Smal, did you have a chance to extract the STR data from the BAM file? What are the values of Nochev for DYS441 and DYS461?
DYS441=15 and DYS461=11

Pillar_of_fire
05-31-2014, 04:03 PM
DYS441=15 and DYS461=11

smal, thank you! So his values are not equal to Rathna, so there is haplotype diversity......

brygian
05-31-2014, 04:25 PM
I was looking at it, but which PC and program have you for downloading all these data? Of course I didn't want to know his name, surname, etc., because here there are medical information and privacy, but for our research it would be important to know his ethnic origin. A man, white, from Massachusetts, may be everyone, but the origin could be interesting also to know that of Goldschlager's. Anyway your researches, also on blind, are very interesting. Of course by his diseases we could know something about his probable origin, but anyway any research about this is better that each of us takes for himself.
To Humanist I could say that a post of parasar, here, has probably demonstrated that a confirmed SNP in our line of descent may be worth also 350 years or more.
Time will tell.

The file is an archive. On Linux (Debian 7) I unpack it with bzip2 -d <filename>. Then I open it with Emacs. If you are only interested in the Y-chromosome data, you can trim the file before the 18029207 line.

Rathna
05-31-2014, 05:47 PM
smal, thank you! So his values are not equal to Rathna, so there is haplotype diversity......

Of course DYS441=15, if it is reliable and confirmed, is interesting, because the marker is a slow mutating one but not how DYS461, and 15 derives from 14. But that between my Z2110 and that of Nochev's there could be many thousands of years was evident also from comparing the SNPs: smal said that he has nothing of mine downstream Z2110.

Pillar_of_fire
06-01-2014, 06:38 AM
Yes, STRs are there.Though the quality is uncertain - a person tested for Y67 hasn't got some of the 67 STRs in the BAM file of the BIG Y test. I did not go deeper to check if for the remaining the values were the same. Also these STR values cannot be used for STR matching in FTDNA.

I did check and the values reported by the BAM file are the same as the ones reported by the Y67 test results. In that particular case the BIG Y did not capture the values of
DYS455
DYS447
DYS490
DYS617
DYS487
DYS572

Rathna
06-01-2014, 07:35 AM
Pillar_of_fire, DYS441=15 is very rare. The unique I found on the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" is that of Joe B, about whose subclade we are discussing and are waiting for his results from Yseq. Anyway it seems he is negative for Z2110/CTS8722, thus he will be either R-Z2107 or possibly R-Z2109. This puts the question whether Joe B and Nochev had independently the mutation of DYS441 from 14 to 15 or whether 15 could be the modal of at least the line downstream R-Z2106. It doesn't seem that it may be supposed also for R-L277 and R-PF7580/L584.
Even though the 15 value is very rare it shouldn't be excluded, just because markers mutate forwards and downwards. Of course more data will be able to say something more also about that.

bcn440
06-01-2014, 08:19 PM
Hello, I just signed up to Anthrogenica today, but I have been reading the R1b Early Subclades threads for months. Sorry for not write here before and for my bad english.

My father is N66406 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults. As you know we recently received the positive test result for CTS7822. Which do you think must be our next move? Order CTS9219? Can be interesting to take the Geno 2.0 test? Any advice will be welcome.

Thank you

brygian
06-01-2014, 08:34 PM
Hello, I just signed up to Anthrogenica today, but I have been reading the R1b Early Subclades threads for months. Sorry for not write here before and for my bad english.

My father is N66406 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults. As you know we recently received the positive test result for CTS7822. Which do you think must be our next move? Order CTS9219? Can be interesting to take the Geno 2.0 test? Any advice will be welcome.

Thank you

Welcome to the forum! Geno 2.0 can't give you much more information if you already know that you are CTS7822+. There are only three confirmed SNPs under it - it's cheaper and faster to order them separately than to order Geno 2.0. See the diagram here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx You can test for CTS9219. If it turns negative, you can test for CTS699. If you want to go deeper and if you can afford it, order Big Y directly. If you decide to go for Big Y, maybe you can wait for a couple of weeks - it may be discounted around the 15th of June.

Rathna
06-01-2014, 08:49 PM
If my theories are right, Seguer should be R-CTS9219, having DYS441=14 and DYS446=14, but he has also DYS425=0 and other rare mutations. Thus I think that his haplotype has been separated from the other (possibly) CTS9219 so long ago.
We have a Spaniard in the 1KGP with 4 new SNPs downstream CTS9219. Probably he should test also them after CTS9219.

smal
06-02-2014, 12:02 PM
DYS441=15 and DYS461=11

smal, thank you! So his values are not equal to Rathna, so there is haplotype diversity......
I am sorry. :doh: I forgot that we should subtract 1 for FTDNA nomenclature.
DYS441 15-1=14

bcn440
06-02-2014, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the advices. The Big Y is expensive, we have to think about it, but the most probably is that if FTDNA offers a discount we will order it. I hope they make the discount this time...

Joe B
06-02-2014, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the advices. The Big Y is expensive, we have to think about it, but the most probably is that if FTDNA offers a discount we will order it. I hope they make the discount this time... If that discount for Big Y doesn't happen, byrgian's recomendation to test CTS9219 is spot on. So far, R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes with your DYS385=11-11 that have tested for CTS9219 have been positive. More broadly, CTS9219+ seems to be the case with DYS446=14 for R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes, byrgian noticed that first. A positive or negative CTS9219 will be useful information. Geno 2.O is not a good choice now and would be like spending $200 for a CTS9219 test if the result is CTS9219+.
Thanks for your testing. As you can tell, some good things are happening with the R1b-CTS7822 subclade. Applying for formal listing on the ISOGG R-tree (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html) for example. Your father's testing sure helps.
Welcome to Anthrogenica and have fun.
Joe

Pillar_of_fire
06-10-2014, 09:04 PM
If that discount for Big Y doesn't happen, byrgian's recomendation to test CTS9219 is spot on. So far, R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes with your DYS385=11-11 that have tested for CTS9219 have been positive. More broadly, CTS9219+ seems to be the case with DYS446=14 for R1b-CTS7822 haplotypes, byrgian noticed that first. A positive or negative CTS9219 will be useful information. Geno 2.O is not a good choice now and would be like spending $200 for a CTS9219 test if the result is CTS9219+.
Thanks for your testing. As you can tell, some good things are happening with the R1b-CTS7822 subclade. .............


Is there somebody who will order a BIG Y and needs a coupon? I have one spare.

Pillar_of_fire
06-13-2014, 04:44 AM
the BIG Y matching is here and I would like to share the results of N112116

two matches appear - Probasco and Ware.

He shares with each 59 novel variants (which is relatively low number) (and can not tell if the SNP are one and the same in both cases) and has 'known SNP difference' of 3 with Probasco - CTS1450 CTS9219 PR5010 and 4 with Ware - CTS4923 PF2571 PR5010 Z2001

smal
06-13-2014, 07:07 AM
the BIG Y matching is here and I would like to share the results of N112116
two matches appear - Probasco and Ware.
He shares with each 59 novel variants (which is relatively low number) (and can not tell if the SNP are one and the same in both cases) and has 'known SNP difference' of 3 with Probasco - CTS1450 CTS9219 PR5010 and 4 with Ware - CTS4923 PF2571 PR5010 Z2001

The real data for N112116 are:

CTS1450 (7404964 T->G) 147T negative
CTS9219 (18752001 G->A) ? no call
CTS4923 (15904168 A->C) 22A negative
PF2571 (22458141 A->G) 113A negative
Z2001 (13494176 A->G) 3A/3G uncertain
PR5010 (14096487 C->T) 69T/2C positive

We have only single positive SNP - PR5010. Probasco (CTS9219+) and Ware (CTS7822+, CTS9219-) are not positive for PR5010. HG01515 (CTS9219+), HG01277 (CTS7822+, CTS9219-) and PGP157 (CTS7822+, CTS9219-) are negative for PR5010.

Pillar_of_fire
06-13-2014, 05:10 PM
I am no sure what exactly means the 'Known SNP difference' - how they count negative and positive results.

smal
06-13-2014, 05:17 PM
I am no sure what exactly means the 'Known SNP difference' - how they count negative and positive results.

I think if N112116 is positive then Probasco and Ware are negative and vice versa.

smal
06-15-2014, 03:59 PM
Thanks to Pilar of Fire's data extracted from the BigY matching utility we have some progress in the CTS7822 branch. Here I have collected the information from different sources for the Z2106 subclade and these new data.

http://i062.radikal.ru/1406/40/6c95840bfafc.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

brygian
07-07-2014, 04:15 PM
The redesigned Geno 2.0 website now reports how common your haplogroup is. For CTS7822 it shows 0.8%. The front page claims that 673962 people have taken the test. If all of this is correct, then the Genographic project has almost 5500 separate CTS7822+ results.

Out of the more than half a million people reported to have taken the test on the front page just 13591 have posted their stories. Out of them only 35 are CTS7822+. This is about 0.3% compared to 0.8% above.

Does all of this make sense?

lgmayka
07-07-2014, 07:30 PM
The front page claims that 673962 people have taken the test.
About 550,000 of those took the earlier Genographic test (Y-DNA12 or mtHVR1).

brygian
07-07-2014, 07:35 PM
About 550,000 of those took the earlier Genographic test (Y-DNA12 or mtHVR1).

This leaves about 120 000 Geno 2.0 participants which makes about 1000 CTS7822+ results.

brygian
07-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Thanks to Pilar of Fire's data extracted from the BigY matching utility we have some progress in the CTS7822 branch. Here I have collected the information from different sources for the Z2106 subclade and these new data.

http://i062.radikal.ru/1406/40/6c95840bfafc.png (http://www.radikal.ru)

According to this diagram, CTS9219+ people can test the following SNPs:

CTS11767* +, CTS9230* +, CTS7959* +, CTS9906* +
CTS8749*
PF809/M11773*
S583*, S3023, S3846, S8889*, S19777, V244* +
PF2642
PF4655
CTS4122* +, PF4655, S13125
L25* ! +
CTS9940* ! +
PF3928* ! +
F2610* ! +
CTS1039* ! +
CTS2791* ! +
CTS8563* ! +

Legend:
* - tested by Geno 2.0.
! - listed as a subclade of CTS9219 by FTDNA but no such individuals are known so far; some of these SNPs are characteristic of other haplogroups.
+ - available for order at FTDNA.

So, if you have already done Geno 2.0, the following SNPs may be interesting:

S3023, S3846, S19777
PF2642
PF4655
PF4655, S13125

They can be "wished" at YSEQ (as any other SNP). As more BigY results are coming, there might be other interesting SNPs soon.

smal
07-11-2014, 07:41 AM
Updated version of the R-CTS7822 tree

http://s43.radikal.ru/i101/1407/24/dc4b183bdd11.gif (http://www.radikal.ru)

It is not clear who is Dmitri Badia. There are 2 Badia in the FTDNA projects:
277812 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+
277811 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+, L1302+
They belong to I-M253 (by STR analysis) but I do not see their BigY SNPs in projects. BigY data of Dmitri Badia do not match his I-M253 haplogroup. So I think there is some bug from FTDNA again.

brygian
07-11-2014, 11:50 AM
It is not clear who is Dmitri Badia. There are 2 Badia in the FTDNA projects:
277812 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+
277811 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+, L1302+
They belong to I-M253 (by STR analysis) but I do not see their BigY SNPs in projects. BigY data of Dmitri Badia do not match his I-M253 haplogroup. So I think there is some bug from FTDNA again.

Many thanks. I can't either find kit 295890. I can see that for some people, like Velev and Black, there are only one or two SNPs below CTS9219. Does this mean that no other SNPs have been found below or...

smal
07-11-2014, 12:21 PM
I can see that for some people, like Velev and Black, there are only one or two SNPs below CTS9219. Does this mean that no other SNPs have been found below or...
You can find kit 295890 in Polish FTDNA DNA Project.

I can see that for some people, like Velev and Black, there are only one or two SNPs below CTS9219. Does this mean that no other SNPs have been found below or...
FTDNA analysis of the BigY data is very incomplete. BigY BAM files contain much more information then users can see on their pages and through BigY matching utility. So if you have 2 or more closely related samples (like EE cluster - Probasco, Buczkowski, Badia) I recommend to analyse their BAM files jointly by third party service (for example YFull).

brygian
07-23-2014, 08:59 PM
Updated version of the R-CTS7822 tree
It is not clear who is Dmitri Badia. There are 2 Badia in the FTDNA projects:
277812 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+
277811 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+, L1302+
They belong to I-M253 (by STR analysis) but I do not see their BigY SNPs in projects. BigY data of Dmitri Badia do not match his I-M253 haplogroup. So I think there is some bug from FTDNA again.

There are other options too. At least they are R1b.

H1614 Antonio del Badia (1449-?) Castelfiorentino (Firen is Z2105+ See https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/?/publicwebsite.aspx?vgroup=ht35new&section=ysnp He has already two kits - one with SNP data and one without. The second one is H1621. Maybe he has a third one too?

Yet another option is 274985 Pedro Casañ Badia 1840-? https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Clan_Fraser/default.aspx?vgroup=Clan_Fraser&section=ysnp He is R1b too.

Maybe we can simply ask them?

bcn440
07-24-2014, 08:42 PM
I received the results for my father's N66406, Seguer. He is on the same cluster as Probasco, Buczkowski and Badia. I can confirm that the Badia we have as match is the I-M253 one, Ostapchuk, is this a bug?

I am a little surprised that all our matches have the DYS385 11-14, while my father is 11-11 like many other CTS9219 men. Do you know if any other DYS385 11-11 has tested BigY?

brygian
07-24-2014, 09:11 PM
I am a little surprised that all our matches have the DYS385 11-14, while my father is 11-11 like many other CTS9219 men. Do you know if any other DYS385 11-11 has tested BigY?

Not that I am aware of. There are only five of us confirmed CTS9219+ with DYS385=11-11 and three more candidates. I may order Big Y or FGC's test at some point but not now - the test is overpriced even at $500 I think.

smal
07-24-2014, 09:27 PM
I received the results for my father's N66406, Seguer. He is on the same cluster as Probasco, Buczkowski and Badia.
This is not entirely true. You really belong to the CTS9219 cluster as Probasco, Buczkowski and Badia, but they share 18 SNPs after CTS9219 and you do not have these SNPs.

bcn440
07-24-2014, 11:17 PM
This is not entirely true. You really belong to the CTS9219 cluster as Probasco, Buczkowski and Badia, but they share 18 SNPs after CTS9219 and you do not have these SNPs.
Right. I have made a mistake considering the 0 in "Known SNP Difference" and "Non-Matching Known SNPs" on the BigY matches table as belong to the same cluster. Thank you!

brygian
07-29-2014, 03:09 PM
If somebody is considering a Full Genomes Corporation test, they shall consider their Elite test since the Prime one doesn't seem to cover all known SNPs under CTS9219:


Today I asked FGC whether Y Prime and Y Elite cover the so far known SNPs under CTS9219 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1096-From-R-L150-to-R-CTS7822&p=45133&viewfull=1#post45133) and this is their reply:


I expect that all of these should be covered by the Y Elite test.
There may be a handful not covered by the Y Prime test. I just checked our coverage estimates based on our pilot results for one of the samples (Sample 1 here: http://goo.gl/pcq6FE ) and all 18 of the sites in the first branch of your diagram (7065166 through 23098285) were considered callable. Granted, there could be some variation from sample-to-sample.

smal, if you know the private SNPs from the above diagram, maybe you could check if they are covered by Y Elite and Y Prime too just in case somebody wants to order from FGC.

smal
07-29-2014, 03:21 PM
It is not clear who is Dmitri Badia. There are 2 Badia in the FTDNA projects:
277812 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+
277811 Badia Ivan Ostapchuk, Abt.1700 I1 I-M253 M253+, L1302+
They belong to I-M253 (by STR analysis) but I do not see their BigY SNPs in projects. BigY data of Dmitri Badia do not match his I-M253 haplogroup. So I think there is some bug from FTDNA again.

There is an explanation to this puzzle now. He is not 277811, 277812 Badia, he is 277816 Levchenko. Levchenko's and Badia's samples were taken simultaneously and accidentally mixed up tubes. So each of 277811 and 277812 kits has one tube of Badia's DNA and one tube of LevchenKo's DNA. For STR analysis the FTDNA has used first tubes (Badia) from 277811 and 277812 kits. For Levchenko was ordered additional 277816 kit. But for Badia's BigY test the FTDNA has used second tubes from 277811 kit which contains in reality Levchnko's DNA.

Geolocke
07-29-2014, 10:49 PM
There is an explanation to this puzzle now. He is not 277811, 277812 Badia, he is 277816 Levchenko. Levchenko's and Badia's samples were taken simultaneously and accidentally mixed up tubes. So each of 277811 and 277812 kits has one tube of Badia's DNA and one tube of LevchenKo's DNA. For STR analysis the FTDNA has used first tubes (Badia) from 277811 and 277812 kits. For Levchenko was ordered additional 277816 kit. But for Badia's BigY test the FTDNA has used second tubes from 277811 kit which contains in reality Levchnko's DNA.

*OUCH!* That's a bad mix-up.

smal
07-30-2014, 08:12 AM
smal, if you know the private SNPs from the above diagram, maybe you could check if they are covered by Y Elite and Y Prime too just in case somebody wants to order from FGC.

The biggest is not always the best. I heard that a read length for YElite and YPrime is 100 bp and 150 bp, respectively. So a quality of the NGS alignment for YPrime will be better.

brygian
07-30-2014, 08:42 AM
The biggest is not always the best. I heard that a read length for YElite and YPrime is 100 bp and 150 bp, respectively. So a quality of the NGS alignment for YPrime will be better.

Thanks smal! Can you explain how the read length affects the end results?

BTW, in the latest tree that you posted several posts above I can see that both BDNA-592 and BDNA-1839 have PF4655 but BDNA-592 has two extra SNPs. Shouldn't these extra SNPs be placed under BDNA-592?

smal
07-30-2014, 09:06 AM
Thanks smal! Can you explain how the read length affects the end results?

You as a programmer should be easy to understand the problem of chromosome assembly. Imagine that you cut a very long text into short fragments, mixed them, and now are trying to assemble the text again. The smaller these fragments, the more chances to find similar fragments in different parts of the chromosome (and in other chromosomes). This will lead to incorrect assembly or alignment of the chromosome sequence.

smal
07-30-2014, 09:27 AM
BTW, in the latest tree that you posted several posts above I can see that both BDNA-592 and BDNA-1839 have PF4655 but BDNA-592 has two extra SNPs. Shouldn't these extra SNPs be placed under BDNA-592?
You are right, but I think these markers are not very important. They are very unstable in Chromo2 chip and should be checked by sequencing.

brygian
07-30-2014, 09:59 AM
You as a programmer should be easy to understand the problem of chromosome assembly. Imagine that you cut a very long text into short fragments, mixed them, and now are trying to assemble the text again. The smaller these fragments, the more chances to find similar fragments in different parts of the chromosome (and in other chromosomes). This will lead to incorrect assembly or alignment of the chromosome sequence.

Thanks! I think I got it. So basically with Y Elite you get more raw data but you have less chance of assembling and utilizing it. Y Prime yields less data but you have a better chance of putting it together. Given that Big Y has read length of 100 bp while Y Prime is 150 and Y Prime has more coverage, in theory Y Prime should yield more novel SNPs. FGC doesn't cover exactly the same regions as Big Y of course. Since we already have several CTS9219+ individuals with Big Y, it may be a good idea for somebody to test at FGC in order to cover regions not sequenced by Big Y. Maybe I will give Y Prime a try in a couple of months after the price of the test has become more stable (and affordable).

Before I order anything, I will check some details with you about known SNPs under CTS9219 and the test coverage.

By the way, they will be sequencing Y Prime in a different lab in the US. Could this potentially be YSEQ's lab?

smal
07-30-2014, 11:36 AM
By the way, they will be sequencing Y Prime in a different lab in the US. Could this potentially be YSEQ's lab?
Unfortunately, I don't know.

Pillar_of_fire
09-18-2014, 06:09 AM
I ordered CTS7822 for kit 315636.

I have noticed some georgaphic dependancy in the kits I manage. kit N112116, 331351 and 315636 come from a close region of a radius of 50km. Applying the Occam’s Scalpel principle 315636 should be CTS7822+ at least.

I also checked R1b-Z2103-CTS7822 haplotype table (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/table/588/)

The only specific non-common marker for 315636 is DYS439=13. In this table a lot of samples are 12, one has a value of 14 and two samples have a value of 13, just as 315636.

I have joined some time ago 315636 to the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) project, but the admins took it out.

smal
09-18-2014, 07:36 AM
I have joined some time ago 315636 to the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) project, but the admins took it out.

I hope you'll try to join again. I think it was some mistake.

Pillar_of_fire
09-18-2014, 09:09 AM
I hope you'll try to join again. I think it was some mistake.

I joined again.

315636 has a lot of matches from the P312+ and U106+, but then he has also 4 CTS7822+ matches and 2 CTS9219+ matches.

Pillar_of_fire
09-27-2014, 03:18 AM
I joined again.

315636 has a lot of matches from the P312+ and U106+, but then he has also 4 CTS7822+ matches and 2 CTS9219+ matches.

Results are in. 315636 is CTS7822+ . The results were ready in just two weeks.

Pillar_of_fire
09-27-2014, 08:49 AM
Results are in. 315636 is CTS7822+ . The results were ready in just two weeks.

I was wondering what is the probability 315636 to be CTS9219+ considering at 12 STR there is a GD of 2 to 331351 and GD 6 to N112116?

brygian
09-27-2014, 09:06 AM
I was wondering what is the probability 315636 to be CTS9219+ considering at 12 STR there is a GD of 2 to 331351 and GD 6 to N112116?

The greatest genetic distance among proven CTS9219+ individuals is 8 (!!!) at the 12 marker level:


N115142 12 24 14 11 11-13 12 12 13 12 13 28
278024 13 25 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30

smal
09-27-2014, 09:20 AM
I was wondering what is the probability 315636 to be CTS9219+ considering at 12 STR there is a GD of 2 to 331351 and GD 6 to N112116?

I think the probability is high.

Pillar_of_fire
09-27-2014, 06:36 PM
I think the probability is high.

thanks

331351 is CTS9219+ and N112116 is CTS9219-
so since the GD with 331351 is smaller than the GD with N112135, you advise that this indicates that CTS9219+ is more probable.

Pillar_of_fire
11-04-2014, 04:14 AM
Nochev has a new BIG Y match from 03-11-2014. Non-matching known SNP - L759 PF5673 PR5010

BuczkowskiDNA
01-03-2015, 02:16 PM
Hello, I'm just getting into the DNA side of family history and I had testing done through Ancestry, FTDNA and YFull.

My FTDNA # is 295890 (Buczkowski). I had the Big Y done and they told me I have CTS9219 but on YFull it says I have R-Y5587*.

My questions, are if these two are the same, but from separate testing sites or if one is clearly different?

I see my FTDNA # with a number and SNPs next to it and I'm not sure if that's how far one is from the other or not.

Any response you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Michael

lgmayka
01-03-2015, 02:23 PM
I had the Big Y done and they told me I have CTS9219 but on YFull it says I have R-Y5587*.
Y5587 is the more specific classification. CTS9219 is older and more general (i.e., "higher up" on the haplotree). You can see this on YFull's haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/R-CTS1450/). If your mouse hovers over the "6 SNPs", you will see that CTS9219 is at the same level as CTS1450. Y5587 is more specific, and Y5586 is more specific yet.

Joe B
01-03-2015, 05:27 PM
Hello, I'm just getting into the DNA side of family history and I had testing done through Ancestry, FTDNA and YFull.

My FTDNA # is 295890 (Buczkowski). I had the Big Y done and they told me I have CTS9219 but on YFull it says I have R-Y5587*.

My questions, are if these two are the same, but from separate testing sites or if one is clearly different?

I see my FTDNA # with a number and SNPs next to it and I'm not sure if that's how far one is from the other or not.

Any response you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Michael
Hello Michael and welcome to the Anthrogenica forum. Your extensive testing is much appreciated. lgmayka has it right, he recognized the L23EE Type STR modal long before anybody else.
Please join the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new) as that is where the deep phlylogenetic work is for your clade. There are a couple of charts that will help you visualize where you sit on the tree. The cladogram or simple tree shows where Y5587 branches. For you, it gets much more specific on the project research tree that smal has constructed. Both of these trees are found on the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project background page. You will be pleased! If you have not already, please make sure that smal gets your BAM file and Yfull results. smal is also R1b-Y5587.
Anthrogenica is a great place to keep up on developments. Byrgian had this observation yesterday.
Some interesting observations:


Kit Branch DYF406S1 DYS525 DYS504
203564 BY250 10 10 17
145692 BY250 10 10 17
90135 BY250 10 10 17
164180 BY250 10 10 17
271283 BY250 10
321758 BY250 10

277816 Y5587 11 9 15
239214 Y5587 11 9 15
261086 Y5587 11 9 15
295890 Y5587 11 9 15
11746 Y5587 11


Interesting is that the Balkan cluster is closer to the WE cluster (BY250) than to the EE cluster (Y5587) as can be seen from these haplotypes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IlSydR3SyIW7YpHGBO08feux-lqKx1_o4HmwCs6_r08/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks for checking in and being part of this research.
Joe B

dp
01-03-2015, 05:40 PM
Hello, I'm just getting into the DNA side of family history and I had testing done through Ancestry, FTDNA and YFull.

My FTDNA # is 295890 (Buczkowski). I had the Big Y done and they told me I have CTS9219 but on YFull it says I have R-Y5587*.

My questions, are if these two are the same, but from separate testing sites or if one is clearly different?

I see my FTDNA # with a number and SNPs next to it and I'm not sure if that's how far one is from the other or not.

Any response you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Michael

Welcome to Anthrogenica!
dp :-)

Pillar_of_fire
01-09-2015, 09:09 PM
I was wondering what is the probability 315636 to be CTS9219+ considering at 12 STR there is a GD of 2 to 331351 and GD 6 to N112116?


The greatest genetic distance among proven CTS9219+ individuals is 8 (!!!) at the 12 marker level:


N115142 12 24 14 11 11-13 12 12 13 12 13 28
278024 13 25 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 30


I think the probability is high.


thanks

331351 is CTS9219+ and N112116 is CTS9219-
so since the GD with 331351 is smaller than the GD with N112135, you advise that this indicates that CTS9219+ is more probable.

I have upgraded 315636 to Y67. Today panels 38 through 67 are in. Panel 13 to 37 are not yet ready. the interesting result is DYS425=0.

Any advice what SNP to test?

brygian
01-09-2015, 09:37 PM
315636 is CTS9219. The question is if he is BY250 or if he clusters with N66406 Seguer. There is also a chance that he is Y5587 but I'd rather order BY250.

Pillar_of_fire
01-09-2015, 10:00 PM
315636 is CTS9219. The question is if he is BY250 or if he clusters with N66406 Seguer. There is also a chance that he is Y5587 but I'd rather order BY250.

Brygian, Sorry - 315636 is CTS7822, he has not tested CTS9219.

brygian
01-09-2015, 10:06 PM
Brygian, Sorry - 315636 is CTS7822, he has not tested CTS9219.

I am not saying what he has tested. I am saying what he is :)

Joe B
01-10-2015, 02:31 AM
I have upgraded 315636 to Y67. Today panels 38 through 67 are in. Panel 13 to 37 are not yet ready. the interesting result is DYS425=0.

Any advice what SNP to test?

315636 is CTS9219. The question is if he is BY250 or if he clusters with N66406 Seguer. There is also a chance that he is Y5587 but I'd rather order BY250.
That DYS425=0 is also seen in the Robbins family (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/robins/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) or look at subgroup _b5a. Probable R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2109/CTS1843+ M64.3+ in the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx?section=yresults). DYS640=12 is very interesting and and rare in the project. If DYS460=10 and YCAII=18-23, that will mean the Robbins could really be CTS7822/Z2110 instead of R1b-Z2109. Fortunately, we have a Robbins waiting for his Big Y results.
Check out the new R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project Phylogenetic tree (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx).

Abou
01-10-2015, 06:04 AM
I am not saying what he has tested. I am saying what he is :)

I tend to agree with brygian, 315636 will most likely turns up positive for CTS9219 given his DYS446 of 14 but also for his DYS534 of 15 and DYS572 of 11. Please read my post on this matter.

brygian
01-28-2015, 08:17 AM
We have one more FGC29330 result!

Abou
01-28-2015, 02:52 PM
Hi brygian,

can you tell us more?

Thanks

brygian
01-28-2015, 06:10 PM
Hi brygian,

can you tell us more?

Thanks

Sorry, I was at work and could not do further analysis. This is kit 16910. He has a bunch of common SNPs with Ware. I don't have your data to compare with but I think that you won't have common SNPs with him downstream of FGC29330. But smal is the expert and he has the final word.

Joe B
03-02-2015, 09:59 PM
The Willing surname project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Willing/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) just had a member test CTS7822/Z2110+. Subgroup a Devon has seven members from the Plymouth area of Southwest England and have an unusual DYS393=11. Interestingly, Willing subgroup b Germany has three 12 STR haplotypes that are suggestive of R1b-Z2103.

Humanist
03-05-2015, 11:43 PM
Joe. Any idea when Z2106 will be available? I recently advised a member of the Iraqi DNA Project to test Z2103. If he comes back as derived for Z2103, I told him that, if available, Z2106 might be a next step. He is L584-, CTS7822-.

Joe B
03-06-2015, 01:31 AM
Joe. Any idea when Z2106 will be available? I recently advised a member of the Iraqi DNA Project to test Z2103. If he comes back as derived for Z2103, I told him that, if available, Z2106 might be a next step. He is L584-, CTS7822-.
Z2106 is only available from YSEQ as a stand alone SNP. It's on a very long STR and a little difficult for Sanger sequenceing. The Krahn's got it after a few attempts. FTDNA said it was too hard and won't test Z2106. NGS testing picks up Z2106 pretty well. That haplotype is a tough one to predict. If he is Z2103+, and since he is L23+ L150+, consider bracketing him with Z2109/CTS1843, CTS7763 and lastly L277. All three can be ordered from YSEQ or FTDNA. There is always the chance that he could be a new branch too.
Z2106 - http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=886

Humanist
04-17-2015, 07:25 PM
Joe. Any idea when Z2106 will be available? I recently advised a member of the Iraqi DNA Project to test Z2103. If he comes back as derived for Z2103, I told him that, if available, Z2106 might be a next step. He is L584-, CTS7822-.


Z2106 is only available from YSEQ as a stand alone SNP. It's on a very long STR and a little difficult for Sanger sequenceing. The Krahn's got it after a few attempts. FTDNA said it was too hard and won't test Z2106. NGS testing picks up Z2106 pretty well. That haplotype is a tough one to predict. If he is Z2103+, and since he is L23+ L150+, consider bracketing him with Z2109/CTS1843, CTS7763 and lastly L277. All three can be ordered from YSEQ or FTDNA. There is always the chance that he could be a new branch too.
Z2106 - http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=886

Hi, Joe. The Iraqi individual is derived for Z2103. I suggested that he look into testing Z2106 at YSEQ.

smal
04-17-2015, 08:26 PM
Hi, Joe. The Iraqi individual is derived for Z2103. I suggested that he look into testing Z2106 at YSEQ.
He can try to test Z2109 in FTDNA.

Humanist
04-18-2015, 07:49 PM
He can try to test Z2109 in FTDNA.

Thank you for the suggestion. He has ordered Z2109.

Joe B
04-18-2015, 09:05 PM
Thank you for the suggestion. He has ordered Z2109.Thank the gentleman for us. The last Z2109 test only took three weeks from batching. Let's hope.

smal
04-18-2015, 10:01 PM
Thank you for the suggestion. He has ordered Z2109.
If the result is negative, then it is necessary to test CTS7763.

Joe B
04-19-2015, 12:46 AM
Thank you for the suggestion. He has ordered Z2109.
If the result is negative, then it is necessary to test CTS7763.This cladogram shows how the bracketing is going for the Iraqi gentleman. And why CTS7763 would be next if Z2109 is negative.
4375

Humanist
05-21-2015, 08:14 AM
Thank the gentleman for us. The last Z2109 test only took three weeks from batching. Let's hope.


If the result is negative, then it is necessary to test CTS7763.

The result is back. The Iraqi man is derived for Z2109. Any further testing suggestions?

Humanist
05-21-2015, 05:56 PM
This cladogram shows how the bracketing is going for the Iraqi gentleman. And why CTS7763 would be next if Z2109 is negative.
4375

I suppose CTS3937 would be the next step?

rick_r
05-21-2015, 07:25 PM
I suppose CTS3937 would be the next step?

How about M64.1? I'd be interested in seeing if he fits in with myself and JoeB, FWIW.

eastara
05-22-2015, 12:23 AM
I suppose CTS3937 would be the next step?

There is also the Bashkir/Indian branch M4170 under Z2109 , which looks more likely with an Iraqi.

Pillar_of_fire
06-17-2015, 12:21 PM
Hi all,

i just can't keep from posting - kit N139072 is both R-CTS9219 (Geno2.0) and has a DYS426 = 11. I know that DYS426 = 11 was considered a signature of PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+, while DYS426=12 is a signature of Z2103+.

Are there any other DYS426 = 11 and R-CTS9219?

lgmayka
06-17-2015, 02:01 PM
Are there any other DYS426 = 11 and R-CTS9219?
Kit 169599 of Poland has DYS426=11, and is suspected to be CTS9219+ , but he has only 37 markers:


12 24 14 10 11 14 11 12 12 13 13 29 15 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 10 12 19 23 16 16 19 20 37 38 12 12

Joe B
06-17-2015, 05:05 PM
Hi all,

i just can't keep from posting - kit N139072 is both R-CTS9219 (Geno2.0) and has a DYS426 = 11. I know that DYS426 = 11 was considered a signature of PF7558/PF7562/PF7563+, while DYS426=12 is a signature of Z2103+.

Are there any other DYS426 = 11 and R-CTS9219?
Kit 169599 of Poland has DYS426=11, and is suspected to be CTS9219+ , but he has only 37 markers:


12 24 14 10 11 14 11 12 12 13 13 29 15 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 10 12 19 23 16 16 19 20 37 38 12 12

Thanks Pillar of Fire. Thats a good catch. Is he from the Rhodope Mountains area?
Like you said, DYS426=11 has been a reliable predictor of the R1b-PF7562 (L23+, L51-, Z2103-) haplogroup. We're all on a learning curve when it comes to STR modals. There are exceptions to the rule for about every subclade and it can be humbling. In the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project there are a couple of exceptions to "rule" DYS426=11.
In subgroup _b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ should test CTS7822 we have N110085 12 22 14 11 11-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 and Z2103+, Z2105+.
Subgroup B3. R1b-L23: Should order Z2103 has N85858 R-L23 12 24 14 11 11-14 11 12 13 13 13 29 and L23+, L49+, P310-, P311-, P312-, U106-, L51-. That's about it.
Thanks Imayka. Hope 169599 will SNP test soon.

Pillar_of_fire
06-17-2015, 08:20 PM
..... Is he from the Rhodope Mountains area?

Yes, the person is from the Rhodope Mountain area of the south part of the Smolyan region

Gino
04-25-2017, 06:17 PM
Hello JarvinenT -- The R1b-BY250 project at FTDNA would be willing to contribute $150 toward a Big Y test for you. If you act before Thursday, our offer can be combined with the FTDNA offer so that you only have to pay $275 for the Big Y test. That's a great price for a very important test. Big Y will very precisely place you on the YDNA family tree. Let me know if you are interested.