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View Full Version : Ashkenazi 'large group' Y6923 turns up in Cyprus



wandering_amorite
06-21-2017, 06:59 PM
By Principe's reporting of Nevgen predictions, it looks like E-Y6923 (downstream of L791, and sister to the wider Y4972 clade) has shown up in Cyprus - 2x Turkish Cypriots and 1x Greek Cypriot, to be precise.

This is game-changing for those of us in the Y6923 community. Y6923 as previously reported has a TMRCA of 750 AD, and is found among 5.5% of Ashkenazim, making it one of the 4 or 5 largest recent branches of 80-100 population-wide. Significantly, Y6923 had never been reported among non-Ashkenazi Jews, and the only confirmed non-Jewish bearer was only recently identified, in a Puerto Rican with rumored Galician converso roots - he forming a separate node, upstream of all tested Ashkenazim.

The case of Cypriot Y6923 is interesting for a few reasons. First, it suggests an Ashkenazi patrilineal connection to Cyprus in particular - whatever the chronology or direction of it. Second, it suggests the possibility that Y6923 is not Ashkenazi-specific at all, and that with deeper SNP testing (or, at the least, a review of the STR data), Y6923 will turn up in other spots around the Mediterranean. And third, it proves that E-M34 isn't only common in Cyprus, but also diverse - split between M84 and L791 (highly in favor of the former, which seems to be the case in most well-tested M34-rich populations), and between multiple subgroups of each (including Y4972, which has been found in Greek Jews, among other Middle Eastern and Mediterranean populations).

It also seems to me noteworthy that Cyprus has never been a primarily Semitic- or Afroasiatic- speaking territory, as far as we know.

Any thoughts? I'm looking forward to seeing what others in the Y6923 and Jewish Y-DNA communities get out of a closer analysis. Also curious to see if anyone'd be capable of estimating the divergence between these Cypriot haplotypes and the Ashkenazi modal. Once again, the fact that we're able to use uniparental markers to investigate population history on the classical-to-medieval timescale blows my mind.

MfA
06-21-2017, 07:03 PM
What's the alleged Y6923 samples' IDs?

Agamemnon
06-21-2017, 07:08 PM
Cyprus was settled in part by the Phoenicians, this could explain Y6923's presence there (it formed some 5,500 yBP after all). Alternatively, this could also be related to the presence of Jews in Cyprus, this makes more sense considering Y6923's TMRCA.

MfA
06-21-2017, 07:41 PM
I just checked DYS391=9 samples, failed to find any Y6923s.

Greek-Cypriots


ID 256
belongs to Y4971, probably Napoleonic branch
https://abload.de/img/id256dbs7h.png

Turkish-Cypriots

HT043
belongs to L791-un, not Y6923
https://abload.de/img/ht043x2uvf.png

HT182
belongs to L791-un, not Y6923
https://abload.de/img/ht1825zu87.png

HT183
belongs to L791-un, not Y6923
https://abload.de/img/ht183kvut0.png

HT006
belongs to Y4971, probably Napoleonic branch
https://abload.de/img/ht006mnud6.png

HT019
belongs to L791-un, not Y6923
https://abload.de/img/ht019zqu58.png


HT134
belongs to L791-un, not Y6923
https://abload.de/img/ht1345xu3l.png



Characteristic marker values of Jewish Y6923:
DYS393=14, DYS390=25, DYS19=13, DYS391=9, DYS447<=23, DYS460=10, GATAH4=10, YCAII=19/19, DYS576=12 or 13, the ones in bold especially very characteristic

wandering_amorite
06-22-2017, 09:23 PM
Your response, Principe?

Principe
06-22-2017, 09:40 PM
Your response, Principe?

I am going through my notes and I will post the ID's.

Principe
06-22-2017, 11:02 PM
For the Turkish Cypriots I have HT183 at 76.6% predicted E-Y6923 and for the Greek Cypriots I have ID125 and ID261 they don't come out predicted as Y6923 but off markers are shared, the Y6923 in Cyprus could represent a more archaic Y6923 if you want to compare for an example my Y15222 looks very different than L210(xZ489) as the L210(xZ489) will look similar to just general Z467 and even S25258 lineages, like Wandering Amorite said in the original post the current TMRCA of Y6923 is 750 AD and on Yfull it gives 300 years earlier, if not there is no split for almost 4000 years. Another thing to take note of the Cypriot paper is many of the Y lineages actually look very similar to the main Ashkenazi lineages showing a shared distant common gene pool, which makes sense taking into consideration where Cyprus is located. Wandering Amorite sorry it was 2x Greek Cypriots and 1x Turkish Cypriots, it was a long day of work!

wandering_amorite
06-24-2017, 07:42 PM
For the Turkish Cypriots I have HT183 at 76.6% predicted E-Y6923 and for the Greek Cypriots I have ID125 and ID261 they don't come out predicted as Y6923 but off markers are shared, the Y6923 in Cyprus could represent a more archaic Y6923 if you want to compare for an example my Y15222 looks very different than L210(xZ489) as the L210(xZ489) will look similar to just general Z467 and even S25258 lineages, like Wandering Amorite said in the original post the current TMRCA of Y6923 is 750 AD and on Yfull it gives 300 years earlier, if not there is no split for almost 4000 years. Another thing to take note of the Cypriot paper is many of the Y lineages actually look very similar to the main Ashkenazi lineages showing a shared distant common gene pool, which makes sense taking into consideration where Cyprus is located. Wandering Amorite sorry it was 2x Greek Cypriots and 1x Turkish Cypriots, it was a long day of work!

Thanks for the update here! I've been in touch w/Y6923 investigators, and hope we'll be able to synthesize this new info from Cyprus into our understanding of L791 and Y6923.

Andrewid
06-19-2018, 07:30 AM
By Principe's reporting of Nevgen predictions, it looks like E-Y6923 (downstream of L791, and sister to the wider Y4972 clade) has shown up in Cyprus - 2x Turkish Cypriots and 1x Greek Cypriot, to be precise.

This is game-changing for those of us in the Y6923 community. Y6923 as previously reported has a TMRCA of 750 AD, and is found among 5.5% of Ashkenazim, making it one of the 4 or 5 largest recent branches of 80-100 population-wide. Significantly, Y6923 had never been reported among non-Ashkenazi Jews, and the only confirmed non-Jewish bearer was only recently identified, in a Puerto Rican with rumored Galician converso roots - he forming a separate node, upstream of all tested Ashkenazim.

The case of Cypriot Y6923 is interesting for a few reasons. First, it suggests an Ashkenazi patrilineal connection to Cyprus in particular - whatever the chronology or direction of it. Second, it suggests the possibility that Y6923 is not Ashkenazi-specific at all, and that with deeper SNP testing (or, at the least, a review of the STR data), Y6923 will turn up in other spots around the Mediterranean. And third, it proves that E-M34 isn't only common in Cyprus, but also diverse - split between M84 and L791 (highly in favor of the former, which seems to be the case in most well-tested M34-rich populations), and between multiple subgroups of each (including Y4972, which has been found in Greek Jews, among other Middle Eastern and Mediterranean populations).

It also seems to me noteworthy that Cyprus has never been a primarily Semitic- or Afroasiatic- speaking territory, as far as we know.

Any thoughts? I'm looking forward to seeing what others in the Y6923 and Jewish Y-DNA communities get out of a closer analysis. Also curious to see if anyone'd be capable of estimating the divergence between these Cypriot haplotypes and the Ashkenazi modal. Once again, the fact that we're able to use uniparental markers to investigate population history on the classical-to-medieval timescale blows my mind.


I'm 100% Greek Cypriot going back several generations. According to 23andme I'm in Y-chromosome haplogroup E-L29 (E-M84). I'm going to get more refined results.

The Jewish presence in Cyprus is well attested by historians and documents. During one of the major Jewish rebellions around CE117, many non-Jews were apparently killed by the rebels in Cyprus. According to some sources, the Romans took draconian reprisals against the Cypriot Jewish community. Thousands may have perished as a result. The Romans apparently even issued an edict banning any Jew from henceforth settling on the island. So what happened to the surviving Jews? My own assumption is that those who didn't emigrate would have converted. This may be part of the explanation.

Targum
06-19-2018, 10:31 PM
I'm 100% Greek Cypriot going back several generations. According to 23andme I'm in Y-chromosome haplogroup E-L29 (E-M84). I'm going to get more refined results.

The Jewish presence in Cyprus is well attested by historians and documents. During one of the major Jewish rebellions around CE117, many non-Jews were apparently killed by the rebels in Cyprus. According to some sources, the Romans took draconian reprisals against the Cypriot Jewish community. Thousands may have perished as a result. The Romans apparently even issued an edict banning any Jew from henceforth settling on the island. So what happened to the surviving Jews? My own assumption is that those who didn't emigrate would have converted. This may be part of the explanation.

I believe the 115-117 C.E. event was פולמוס קיטוס Pulmos Qitos The Qitos Controversy, which as you described, was a guerilla war of attrition against Rome, which remained scattered unlike the Great Revolt of 66-70 C.E. or the Bar Kokhva Revolt of 132-135 C.E.

Andrewid
06-19-2018, 11:47 PM
I believe the 115-117 C.E. event was פולמוס קיטוס Pulmos Qitos The Qitos Controversy, which as you described, was a guerilla war of attrition against Rome, which remained scattered unlike the Great Revolt of 66-70 C.E. or the Bar Kokhva Revolt of 132-135 C.E.

I wonder if you know of any Jewish sources about those events as they unfolded in Cyprus? Is there any evidence of a mass conversion of the Jewish survivors to the local religions? We do know that Jewish communities on the island did reappear under the Byzantines and these were probably composed of a new genetic pool.

Targum
06-20-2018, 12:09 AM
I wonder if you know of any Jewish sources about those events as they unfolded in Cyprus? Is there any evidence of a mass conversion of the Jewish survivors to the local religions? We do know that Jewish communities on the island did reappear under the Byzantines and these were probably composed of a new genetic pool.

E

Wiki article alludes to primary sources in Talmud Yerushalmi, Talmud Bavli and elsewhere:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War