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JonikW
06-21-2017, 09:26 PM
Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market? I have at least two Cornish surnames in my mainly South Welsh borders and surrounding counties tree in the past few generations (still researching) and have Cornish 4.72 and English 5.26 as my top populations on the Gedmatch Jtest, and the following results on the Living DNA test in cautious mode:
South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
Cornwall 8%
Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%
Incidentally, my 23andme speculative results put me at British and Irish 66.4%, which is lower than my Welsh mother had.
As a related population, I also wonder if any Bretons have tested and what their results show.

ajc347
06-21-2017, 10:20 PM
My maternal grandfather hails from a long-standing Cornish family and I've been able to trace the paper trail back to the marriage between my 4th great grandfather (who was from Lostwithiel) and my 4th great grandmother (who was from Lanlivery) in 1788. Cornish shows up at 3.8% across each of my Living DNA complete, standard and cautious modes. My great grandfather moved over the border to Plymouth (30 miles away), 113 years later and Devon only appears in my complete mode (at 5.3%).

I'm surprised at how low the percentages are considering how well other branches of the family are represented in the Living DNA results (with East Anglia & Ireland/SW Scotland, for example, giving significantly higher percentages despite having a similar paper ancestry to c.1770 and c.1775 respectively). Interestingly, my DNA Tribes report list Cornwall West Britain as being the first ranked population match, so I suspect that there may well be a potential under-reporting for Cornwall in my Living DNA results.

JonikW
06-21-2017, 11:09 PM
My maternal grandfather hails from a long-standing Cornish family and I've been able to trace the paper trail back to the marriage between my 4th great grandfather (who was from Lostwithiel) and my 4th great grandmother (who was from Lanlivery) in 1788. Cornish shows up at 3.8% across each of my Living DNA complete, standard and cautious modes. My great grandfather moved over the border to Plymouth (30 miles away), 113 years later and Devon only appears in my complete mode (at 5.3%).

I'm surprised at how low the percentages are considering how well other branches of the family are represented in the Living DNA results (with East Anglia & Ireland/SW Scotland, for example, giving significantly higher percentages despite having a similar paper ancestry to c.1770 and c.1775 respectively). Interestingly, my DNA Tribes report list Cornwall West Britain as being the first ranked population match, so I suspect that there may well be a potential under-reporting for Cornwall in my Living DNA results.

That does seem surprising, although I see you have Cornwall rather than the broader Cornwall-related in cautious mode. So at least the test has picked it up.

Saetro
06-22-2017, 12:51 AM
Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market?

If any test is going to show you Cornish it will be LivingDNA.

I am 3/16 Cornish
My FTDNA old-style "MyOrigins" showed 5% Southern Europe (Spain, S France, Italy) as well as a heap of British.
Others who had this had Cornish or occasionally Irish or Welsh.

My mtDNA subclade has identical matches with people's ancestors only from Cornwall/Devon, so that appears to be fairly specific for me.
Matches a little further away come mainly from Ireland, but basically British Isles and the Atlantic seaboard of Europe, so most people may not be able to achieve sufficient specificity from an mtDNA test.

My best ethnicity test has been locating my 16 gg grandparents and their origins.
All subsequent work, whether documentary back another few generations or DNA has merely confirmed it.
And when we judge a DNA test, we will be using our own understanding as the yardstick.
This may be based on what someone in the family told us, but for those who have researched back a few generations, it will be based on that.
It may be good to do a DNA test for confirmation, but when so many people blame the DNA test when there is a difference, why not just rely on the traditional research?
Humans are strange and wonderful beings!

Good luck with the Bretons. A few have tested despite the ban on DNA tests in France.

firemonkey
06-22-2017, 01:26 AM
I would love to be able to prove my surname ,Gatty, is Cornish. The earliest birth I've found for Gatty in IGI was in Cornwall in 1568. From Cornwall the Gattys then moved to Devon and London.
On My heritage my father has a match with someone who has a Gatty ancestor from Cornwall in the 18th century. They are also matches on FTDNA. Unfortunately with our Gatty line we are stuck at my 4gt William Gatty who married Ann Murray in 1810 at Liverpool.

Living dna gives me 3.3% Cornwall in complete and standard modes. Eu test -4 Cornish 4.34, Jtest -5 Cornish 4.31



With dna tribes Cornwall is top with my 23andMe,Ancestry and FTDNA uploads. Also top with my father's FTDNA upload.

MacEochaidh
06-22-2017, 03:52 AM
Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market? I have at least two Cornish surnames in my mainly South Welsh borders and surrounding counties tree in the past few generations (still researching) and have Cornish 4.72 and English 5.26 as my top populations on the Gedmatch Jtest, and the following results on the Living DNA test in cautious mode:
South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
Cornwall 8%
Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%
Incidentally, my 23andme speculative results put me at British and Irish 66.4%, which is lower than my Welsh mother had.
As a related population, I also wonder if any Bretons have tested and what their results show.

I have 25% French Canadian ancestry with a paper trail that shows a majority of Bretange and Normandie. I haven't found Cornish ancestry on my 75% Isles ancestry (Ulster), but I do have a 6.5% Cornwall ancestry from LivingDNA. On Eurogenes Oracle (GedMatch) I often get Southwest England as my top single ancestry score, which I have always assumed was what you get when you mix 75% Isles with 25% French.

My mtDNA Tg2 traces back to an ancestor, Francoise Arguin, who was born in Cameret-sur-mer, Cournaille, Bretagne in 1698. My closest mtDNA match is from Normandie.

Clarke
06-22-2017, 06:41 AM
On Jtest I get 2.7% Cornish? On Ancestry I get links to South-East/West England. I put this down to my maternal ancestry, my mother's maiden name is Clayworth, not being an expert in anyway this is mostly speculative.

firemonkey
06-22-2017, 06:51 AM
My father's result- Jtest



# Population Percent
1 ATLANTIC 29.44
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 27.07
3 SOUTH_BALTIC 13.38
4 WEST_MED 11.8
5 EAST_EURO 9.45
6 WEST_ASIAN 4.04
7 ASHKENAZI 2.97
8 EAST_MED 1.87

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Cornish 2.12
2 Orcadian 3.03
3 IE 3.45
4 English 3.82
5 Scottish 4.15
6 NL 4.76
7 West_&_Central_German 5.9
8 DK 7.04
9 NO 8.54
10 South_&_Central_Swedish 9.33
11 FR 10.17
12 AT 12.86
13 North_Swedish 13.28
14 ES 17.47
15 PT 17.6
16 HU 18.03
17 Serbian 20.5
18 North_Italian 21.38
19 South_Finnish 21.51
20 French_Basque 21.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.4% Orcadian + 19.6% FR @ 1.8
2 72.4% Cornish + 27.6% Orcadian @ 1.92
3 88.1% Orcadian + 11.9% ES @ 1.93
4 80.8% Cornish + 19.2% Scottish @ 1.93
5 77.4% Cornish + 22.6% IE @ 1.95
6 95.6% Orcadian + 4.4% Sardinian @ 2.02
7 73.4% Scottish + 26.6% FR @ 2.03
8 88.7% Orcadian + 11.3% PT @ 2.05
9 90.1% Cornish + 9.9% English @ 2.09
10 97.8% Cornish + 2.2% South_&_Central_Swedish @ 2.11
11 99% Cornish + 1% NO @ 2.12
12 99.9% Cornish + 0.1% LIT @ 2.12
13 100% Cornish + 0% GE @ 2.12
14 100% Cornish + 0% AJ @ 2.12
15 100% Cornish + 0% Algerian @ 2.12
16 100% Cornish + 0% Armenian @ 2.12
17 100% Cornish + 0% Assyrian @ 2.12
18 100% Cornish + 0% AT @ 2.12
19 100% Cornish + 0% Balochi @ 2.12
20 100% Cornish + 0% Bangladeshi @ 2.12




Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 2.421084
2 Orcadian @ 3.416026
3 IE @ 3.926509
4 English @ 4.377352
5 Scottish @ 4.655862
6 NL @ 5.493605
7 West_&_Central_German @ 6.836493
8 DK @ 8.064515
9 NO @ 9.763544
10 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 10.618692
11 FR @ 11.539428
12 AT @ 14.831588
13 North_Swedish @ 14.988324
14 ES @ 19.745224
15 PT @ 19.958075
16 HU @ 20.664074
17 Serbian @ 23.863899
18 South_Finnish @ 24.053795
19 French_Basque @ 24.184450
20 North_Italian @ 24.715273

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +50% Orcadian @ 2.330048


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +25% English +25% Scottish @ 2.197433


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 FR + Orcadian + Orcadian + Scottish @ 1.997446
2 FR + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.018913
3 FR + IE + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.075364
4 English + FR + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.097383
5 FR + IE + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.171815
6 Cornish + Cornish + English + Scottish @ 2.197433
7 FR + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.201012
8 Cornish + Cornish + Cornish + Orcadian @ 2.203607
9 Cornish + Cornish + Cornish + Scottish @ 2.207961
10 Cornish + Cornish + Cornish + IE @ 2.213126
11 FR + IE + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.231220
12 FR + IE + IE + Scottish @ 2.267370
13 Cornish + Cornish + English + IE @ 2.273083
14 English + FR + IE + Scottish @ 2.279690
15 FR + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.297243
16 English + FR + Orcadian + Scottish @ 2.310809
17 Cornish + Cornish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.330048
18 FR + IE + IE + Orcadian @ 2.335629
19 FR + NL + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.359988
20 Cornish + Cornish + IE + Orcadian @ 2.362721

06-22-2017, 07:14 AM
Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market? I have at least two Cornish surnames in my mainly South Welsh borders and surrounding counties tree in the past few generations (still researching) and have Cornish 4.72 and English 5.26 as my top populations on the Gedmatch Jtest, and the following results on the Living DNA test in cautious mode:
South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
Cornwall 8%
Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%
Incidentally, my 23andme speculative results put me at British and Irish 66.4%, which is lower than my Welsh mother had.
As a related population, I also wonder if any Bretons have tested and what their results show.

LivingDNA, give me what I thought unexpected Cornwall, only to find out with more paper research that it was real. A nice shock actually..

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-22-2017, 08:11 AM
Only this morning I was contacted by someone who has just tested with Family Finder and it seems we have quite a close match, although to be honest I think sometimes these matches aren't always as recent as they seem.
Anyway, the point is that he thinks the match is through the Cornish side of his family, some of whom moved to Merthyr, he thinks from Towednack Cornwall. We are yet to find a paper trail proving this, so at the moment I'm just thinking of it as a possible reason for my Cornish percentage on LivingDNA. Unfortunately the possible connection may be through my "Jones" line which is very difficult to track back. John

06-22-2017, 08:19 AM
Interesting news John, I recently send back my ftdna y37 test, so I have no idea what to expect, or how to use the results, so might need to pester you if I don't understand it.

Clarke
06-22-2017, 10:13 AM
My Jtest results

Admix Results (sorted):


Population Percent
1 ATLANTIC 30.06
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 25.88
3 SOUTH_BALTIC 10.99
4 WEST_MED 10.98
5 EAST_EURO 10.73
6 WEST_ASIAN 4.13
7 EAST_MED 3.88
8 ASHKENAZI 3.36


Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
14 components mode.

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish 2.744079
2 IE 4.331039
3 Orcadian 4.378517
4 Scottish 4.904027
5 English 5.387403
6 NL 6.268162
7 West_&_Central_German 7.115040
8 DK 8.646599
9 NO 10.952497
10 FR 11.035776
11 South_&_Central_Swedish 12.041159
12 AT 14.640035
13 North_Swedish 15.639019
14 ES 18.833569
15 PT 19.117764
16 HU 20.770582
17 Serbian 22.875212
18 French_Basque 23.428617
19 North_Italian 23.703602
20 South_Finnish 24.614321

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +50% Cornish 2.744079


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +25% Cornish +25% Scottish 2.589771


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 FR + IE + Scottish + Scottish 1.964777
2 FR + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish 2.033781
3 FR + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish 2.074021
4 Cornish + FR + Scottish + Scottish 2.096163
5 FR + IE + IE + Scottish 2.135735
6 FR + IE + Orcadian + Scottish 2.168334
7 Cornish + FR + IE + Scottish 2.269351
8 English + FR + Scottish + Scottish 2.277545
9 FR + Orcadian + Orcadian + Scottish 2.332806
10 Cornish + FR + Orcadian + Scottish 2.417599
11 FR + NL + Scottish + Scottish 2.479566
12 FR + IE + IE + IE 2.488841
13 FR + IE + IE + Orcadian 2.491671
14 English + FR + IE + Scottish 2.511067
15 FR + Scottish + Scottish + West_&_Central_German 2.543703
16 PT + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish 2.563967
17 FR + IE + Orcadian + Orcadian 2.576207
18 Cornish + Cornish + Cornish + Scottish 2.589771
19 Cornish + FR + IE + IE 2.599611
20 IE + PT + Scottish + Scottish 2.642537

MacEochaidh
06-22-2017, 12:25 PM
This is my JTest Single Population Oracle

# Population Percent
1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 29.56
2 ATLANTIC 27.57
3 WEST_MED 12.33
4 SOUTH_BALTIC 10.54
5 EAST_MED 6.02
6 EAST_EURO 5.11
7 ASHKENAZI 4.74
8 WEST_ASIAN 3.83
9 SIBERIAN 0.29


# Population (source) Distance
1 English 5.97
2 Cornish 6.75
3 NL 7.55
4 West_&_Central_German 8.03
5 Orcadian 8.53
6 FR 8.73
7 IE 8.95
8 Scottish 9.3
9 DK 10.12
10 NO 12.31
11 South_&_Central_Swedish 13.07
12 AT 14.32
13 PT 15.18
14 ES 15.58
15 North_Swedish 17.13
16 North_Italian 19.02
17 HU 19.96
18 Serbian 20.75
19 French_Basque 21.85
20 Tuscan 22.41

06-22-2017, 12:32 PM
Sorry, why is the JTest relevant in this instance?

MacEochaidh
06-22-2017, 12:56 PM
Sorry, why is the JTest relevant in this instance?

It is relevant because the JTest Oracle includes a Cornish Population result. Most tests don't give you a Cornish result.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-22-2017, 09:42 PM
Interesting news John, I recently send back my ftdna y37 test, so I have no idea what to expect, or how to use the results, so might need to pester you if I don't understand it.

Someone asking ME to interpret DNA results ! :biggrin1:
Of course I'm happy to help as best I can despite my limitations. :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-22-2017, 10:07 PM
Can I ask a question on this?
Apparently there was quite significant settlement by Bretons in some areas of the Welsh Borders post-conquest and I think earlier, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire in particular. Also parts of Norfolk I understand. Could Cornish be confused with Breton or are the populations distinctively different? Just wondering. John

JonikW
06-22-2017, 10:09 PM
Can I ask a question on this?
Apparently there was quite significant settlement by Bretons in some areas of the Welsh Borders post-conquest and I think earlier, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire in particular. Also parts of Norfolk I understand. Could Cornish be confused with Breton or are the populations distinctively different? Just wondering. John

I have never heard of this John but would like to know more. Do you have any sources? Thanks

Dewsloth
06-22-2017, 10:33 PM
Dad gets 2.2% Cornwall in Living DNA Complete mode.

His JTest:

1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.95
2 ATLANTIC 22.39
3 WEST_MED 13.57
4 SOUTH_BALTIC 12.46
5 EAST_EURO 7.36
6 ASHKENAZI 6.63
7 EAST_MED 6.15
8 WEST_ASIAN 5.19
9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 1.19
10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 FR 6.57
2 West_&_Central_German 6.61
3 NL 7.06
4 English 7.78
5 Cornish 8.12
6 AT 8.83
7 Orcadian 10.12
8 DK 10.7
9 IE 10.79
10 Scottish 11.74
11 NO 12.32
12 PT 12.71
13 South_&_Central_Swedish 12.71
14 ES 13.82
15 HU 14.13
16 North_Italian 14.99
17 Serbian 15.01
18 North_Swedish 16.14
19 RO 17.25
20 Tuscan 18.92

Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 English + NL + NL + Tuscan @ 3.730321
2 English + FR + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan @ 3.769632
3 English + English + NL + Tuscan @ 3.777823
4 English + English + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 3.803374
5 English + NL + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 3.824361
6 NL + NL + NL + Tuscan @ 3.843782
7 AT + English + English + North_Italian @ 3.861388
8 English + English + North_Italian + West_&_Central_German @ 3.874513
9 FR + Orcadian + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan @ 3.880623
10 English + FR + NO + Tuscan @ 3.900290
11 AT + English + English + Tuscan @ 3.902437
12 Cornish + NL + NL + Tuscan @ 3.918549
13 English + NL + North_Italian + West_&_Central_German @ 3.919314
14 FR + NL + South_&_Central_Swedish + Tuscan @ 3.932021
15 Cornish + English + NL + Tuscan @ 3.935567
16 Cornish + English + Tuscan + West_&_Central_German @ 3.937727
17 NL + NL + Orcadian + Tuscan @ 3.964196
18 English + North_Italian + West_&_Central_German + West_&_Central_German @ 3.969470
19 English + English + English + Tuscan @ 3.970524
20 English + FR + North_Italian + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 3.971831


Edit:
Oddly enough, Cornwall was the one British Isles region Living DNA initially assigned where we don't have a recorded ancestor.
See map at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9647-Living-DNA-Results&p=229206&viewfull=1#post229206

Amerijoe
06-22-2017, 10:39 PM
Only this morning I was contacted by someone who has just tested with Family Finder and it seems we have quite a close match, although to be honest I think sometimes these matches aren't always as recent as they seem.
Anyway, the point is that he thinks the match is through the Cornish side of his family, some of whom moved to Merthyr, he thinks from Towednack Cornwall. We are yet to find a paper trail proving this, so at the moment I'm just thinking of it as a possible reason for my Cornish percentage on LivingDNA. Unfortunately the possible connection may be through my "Jones" line which is very difficult to track back. John

John, I can concur with the difficulty researching the Jones line. My gg grandmother, Dinah Jones is listed on a marriage document as having been born in Ireland 1841 with William Jones being said father. Have not been able to turn up anything on Dinah at Roots Ireland or any docs from anywhere. I only get a small % of Welsh but might be just enough to add some validity as a result of the following. Origin of Jones name points to Wales. Could she be a descendant of the Welsh immigration to Ireland in the 1700's? Seem to be getting a history education as a byproduct of my research. Many questions few answers but interesting none the less. :) Joe

JonikW
06-22-2017, 10:54 PM
John, I can concur with the difficulty researching the Jones line. My gg grandmother, Dinah Jones is listed on a marriage document as having been born in Ireland 1841 with William Jones being said father. Have not been able to turn up anything on Dinah at Roots Ireland or any docs from anywhere. I only get a small % of Welsh but might be just enough to add some validity as a result of the following. Origin of Jones name points to Wales. Could she be a descendant of the Welsh immigration to Ireland in the 1700's? Seem to be getting a history education as a byproduct of my research. Many questions few answers but interesting none the less. :) Joe

I have the same problem in Wales as someone whose Mother was a Jones from the Valleys. Cornish surnames look more varied, although I was surprised to see that some Welsh names such as Morgan are also Cornish. This website is excellent for checking whether a surname in your tree might be Cornish.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kernow/

Dewsloth
06-22-2017, 11:03 PM
Looking at Dad's results, above, I notice that he never gets both French and Cornish assigned in the same group (unlike English+French, or Orcadian+French or NL+French). Perhaps, at least for JTest, Dad's "Cornish" is closer to Breton?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-23-2017, 03:52 AM
I have never heard of this John but would like to know more. Do you have any sources? Thanks

"The Bretons and Normans of England..." :-
"The third group of Bretons was not dominated by a figure such as Alan of
Richmond-Penthièvre or Ralph of Gael. It was composed of men whose homelands lay in the
north-east Breton seigneuries of Dol-Combour and Fougères. Among the most prominent
were William fitz Baderon, nephew of Wihenoc of La Boussac, lord of Monmouth,23 and
Ralph I of Fougères (d.1124). Ralph had married a daughter of Richard de Clare and Rohesia
Giffard,24 a marriage that connected him to the extensive kin of the Conqueror, from whose
half-brother Robert of Mortain he held land in Normandy.25 The size of Ralph's English
holdings was, however, small, and there is nothing beyond his appearance in Domesday
Book to connect him with England during his lifetime.26 Although the individual holdings of
this group were often quite small, their number and their concentration in the south-west of
England are alike noteworthy. Apart from the Bretons of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire,
whose lands were grouped around those of William fitz Baderon, there were several Breton
landholders in Devonshire, some of whose lands were to form the later honour of Plympton,27
elevated into the earldom of Devon in 1141 by the Empress. The undertenants of Robert of
Mortain, who held vast estates in Cornwall,28 Devon, Dorset and Somerset, included several
Bretons.29"

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjPxO2K_tLUAhVELcAKHf1uDKQQFgguMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coelweb.co.uk%2FFamFIEF.pdf&usg=AFQjCNElsDciMTSRYo6QTEmOE14ifLazGg

There were " Normans" in Herefordshire pre-conquest and they even built a castle to defend against the Welsh.
"Further after 1066 in England and relevantly the Welsh Marches, Bretons formed a substantial part of the conquering Norman elite..."


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gRBAQBB5PiQC&pg=PA88&dq=Breton+presence+in+Herefordshire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS69yqgdPUAhXJDsAKHd5wDR8Q6AEILjAB





Hereford - The French Town:-

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjXhZHThtPUAhVgOMAKHXwFBbMQFgguMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iriehost.co.uk%2Fhereford%2Fh istory%2Fthenormans.asp&usg=AFQjCNHKZuyZOQg95m-rSMe-xeuY-qLs1A

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-23-2017, 04:17 AM
John, I can concur with the difficulty researching the Jones line. My gg grandmother, Dinah Jones is listed on a marriage document as having been born in Ireland 1841 with William Jones being said father. Have not been able to turn up anything on Dinah at Roots Ireland or any docs from anywhere. I only get a small % of Welsh but might be just enough to add some validity as a result of the following. Origin of Jones name points to Wales. Could she be a descendant of the Welsh immigration to Ireland in the 1700's? Seem to be getting a history education as a byproduct of my research. Many questions few answers but interesting none the less. :) Joe

Have you tried the Family Finder test Joe? It might give a clue as to origins, like mine is probably North Wales which would support my Living DNA percentage, but still very difficult to tie down the paper trail. I've found quite a few through Family Finder and it's not that expensive. It can be frustrating but it's a great motivator to acquire knowledge. :) John

Amerijoe
06-23-2017, 12:46 PM
Have you tried the Family Finder test Joe? It might give a clue as to origins, like mine is probably North Wales which would support my Living DNA percentage, but still very difficult to tie down the paper trail. I've found quite a few through Family Finder and it's not that expensive. It can be frustrating but it's a great motivator to acquire knowledge. :) John

John, I'm in just about every accessible database in the world. Most of my matches have B&I origins, but too distant for any kind off verification. I receive requests from matches every once in a while with a long list of surnames to prevue, always to no avail. B&I definitely fits my DNA, most tests place it in the high 90's, which indicates both sides have abundant B&I. With only the maternal side and no paternal, FF will not perform to it's optimum design capabilities.

At present, waiting for Yfull to finish it's analysis of my latest BigY match. The gentlemen in question is a match within the last 15 generations which is a lot better than the previous match at 3700 years, getting closer. What is really interesting is he lists his residence as England and his surname indicates Scot origin. My ydna is definitely an outlier for the British Isles presently with an unknown origin and a lot of my ydna matches are spread throughout the Middle East. This match should bring me back to the Isles. :) Joe

avalon
06-23-2017, 01:33 PM
Does anyone with Cornish ancestry feel this has or hasn't been reflected in any of the DNA tests on the market? I have at least two Cornish surnames in my mainly South Welsh borders and surrounding counties tree in the past few generations (still researching) and have Cornish 4.72 and English 5.26 as my top populations on the Gedmatch Jtest, and the following results on the Living DNA test in cautious mode:
South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
Cornwall 8%
Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%
Incidentally, my 23andme speculative results put me at British and Irish 66.4%, which is lower than my Welsh mother had.
As a related population, I also wonder if any Bretons have tested and what their results show.

If recall correctly there was one poster here who reported around 50% Cornish with LivingDNA, and from memory this matched up well with their known ancestry. Basically, I think this individual had a Cornish mother and a father from elsewhere, or something like that.

You're right though, with LivingDNA, Cornwall is one of those regions that crops up a lot but usually at low percentages. If people are getting lower Cornish percentages than expected through LivingDNA, it probably just means that their ancestry is not matching up that closely with the POBI reference population. POBI had 81 Cornish samples, which looks fairly good, probably a lot better than any of the other Cornish populations used by other companies. But, what may be happening for some people is that they do have known ancestry from Cornwall, but for whatever reason, it may not match that closely with the POBI reference population, and their ancestry gets assigned somewhere else.

I can't speak for the other companies but I would have thought that LivingDNA should be the most accurate, becasue they do have a good dataset, although it is far from perfect.

On edit: I have just checked and the poster was Timberwolf with 51.4% Cornish and he is half Cornish.

timberwolf
06-24-2017, 11:25 PM
Hi

I have tested extensively over the past 2-3 years. I have tested at Ancestry, 23 and me, Big Y and full MtDNA at FTDNA, uploaded to Gedmatch and MyHeritage as well as LDNA

I am Cornish on my fathers side. On my paper trail, I can trace back about five generations with confidence, and speculate back another generation. LDNA gives me 51.7 in complete mode and 53.2 in cautious. So for me. LDNA as an Autosomal test, mainly because of its regional focus to Great Britain and Ireland, is the most accurate of the tests.

I judge their test simply on my Cornish percentage and it looks right, also I feel their cautious mode makes the most sense, East Anglia 23.1 and South Central England 11.8 corresponds in most parts to my paper trail.

On Ancestry I scored 44% Ireland 28% Europe West but only 2% GB, with 23andme 75.2 B & I and 99 % NW European. FTDNA tells me I am Western and Central European. MyHeritage results are too ridiculous to post, lets just say according to them I should be living in a villa somewhere in Spain.

Results are only as good as the samples and data available, and even in the testing I have done, there is a significant difference in estimation of my ancestry.

sktibo
06-25-2017, 04:13 AM
Hi

I have tested extensively over the past 2-3 years. I have tested at Ancestry, 23 and me, Big Y and full MtDNA at FTDNA, uploaded to Gedmatch and MyHeritage as well as LDNA

I am Cornish on my fathers side. On my paper trail, I can trace back about five generations with confidence, and speculate back another generation. LDNA gives me 51.7 in complete mode and 53.2 in cautious. So for me. LDNA as an Autosomal test, mainly because of its regional focus to Great Britain and Ireland, is the most accurate of the tests.

I judge their test simply on my Cornish percentage and it looks right, also I feel their cautious mode makes the most sense, East Anglia 23.1 and South Central England 11.8 corresponds in most parts to my paper trail.

On Ancestry I scored 44% Ireland 28% Europe West but only 2% GB, with 23andme 75.2 B & I and 99 % NW European. FTDNA tells me I am Western and Central European. MyHeritage results are too ridiculous to post, lets just say according to them I should be living in a villa somewhere in Spain.

Results are only as good as the samples and data available, and even in the testing I have done, there is a significant difference in estimation of my ancestry.

So you got Western and Central European as your highest component for Ftdna too? MacEochaidh and I both had that problem with their test.. would you please post your ftdna results? I really want to see your my heritage results too if possible.

timberwolf
06-25-2017, 05:29 AM
FTDNA

West and Central Europe 55
British Isles 34
Scandinavia 10
Eastern Europe <2

MyHeritiage AncestryDNA

North and West Europe 52.4
Irish, Scots and Welsh 39.4
Scandinavian 13

Southern Europe
Iberian 24.6
Italian 3.2

Eastern European 19.8

With 23andme

NW Europe 52.1
Irish Scots and Welsh 42.0
Scandinavian 10.1

South Europe 29.3
Iberian 22.7
Italian 6.6

East Europe 18.6
Eastern Europe 13.3
Baltic 5.3

As I say MyHeritage results are a bit of an outlier

Perhaps it is time for that villa in Spain watching Real v Barcelona. I simply cannot make sense of MyHeritage.

I am more than happy for someone to explain it to me.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 06:34 AM
FTDNA

West and Central Europe 55
British Isles 34
Scandinavia 10
Eastern Europe <2

MyHeritiage AncestryDNA

North and West Europe 52.4
Irish, Scots and Welsh 39.4
Scandinavian 13

Southern Europe
Iberian 24.6
Italian 3.2

Eastern European 19.8

With 23andme

NW Europe 52.1
Irish Scots and Welsh 42.0
Scandinavian 10.1

South Europe 29.3
Iberian 22.7
Italian 6.6

East Europe 18.6
Eastern Europe 13.3
Baltic 5.3

As I say MyHeritage results are a bit of an outlier

Perhaps it is time for that villa in Spain watching Real v Barcelona. I simply cannot make sense of MyHeritage.

I am more than happy for someone to explain it to me.

I'm no expert on this stuff and happy to be corrected. On your my heritage results I would guess they are confusing your Cornish with Irish Scots and Welsh to some extent as matching to the closest population sets they have available ( their calculation may just be unreliable too).
I score Basque/Iberian quite consistently on various calculators, in fact it is the only Continental Europe I score on LivingDNA, although at a lower percentage than you. My ancestry is significantly Welsh including I believe some from North Wales (possibly Anglesey). I think my Basque/Iberian relates in some way to the most " old Welsh" of my Welsh ancestry. There could be other reasons for this this but my best guess at the moment is that "Basque" is a genetically relatively isolated population and may be closest to earlier populations in the British Isles. I tend to get small percentage matches with other relatively genetically isolated populations like the Kalash of NW Pakistan region and even recently Sardinian.
I can see that you might well get a similar effect for from someone from Cornwall as you would ancestry from the remoter parts of Wales. What this means I don't know but I'm wondering whether some of this could go back to even pre-Iron age peoples? As I said, I'm no expert and if someone can up with a better explanation, I would be happy to hear it. :) John

sktibo
06-25-2017, 07:17 AM
FTDNA

West and Central Europe 55
British Isles 34
Scandinavia 10
Eastern Europe <2

MyHeritiage AncestryDNA

North and West Europe 52.4
Irish, Scots and Welsh 39.4
Scandinavian 13

Southern Europe
Iberian 24.6
Italian 3.2

Eastern European 19.8

With 23andme

NW Europe 52.1
Irish Scots and Welsh 42.0
Scandinavian 10.1

South Europe 29.3
Iberian 22.7
Italian 6.6

East Europe 18.6
Eastern Europe 13.3
Baltic 5.3

As I say MyHeritage results are a bit of an outlier

Perhaps it is time for that villa in Spain watching Real v Barcelona. I simply cannot make sense of MyHeritage.

I am more than happy for someone to explain it to me.

Feels good to know I'm not alone on the FTDNA front, I'm 63% WC, 27% BI, so I think they just don't have very good or very many (or both) for their British samples.

North and West Europe
63.6%
English
57.8%
Scandinavian
5.8%
South Europe
18.4%
Iberian
18.4%
East Europe
17.0%
East European
9.5%
Baltic
7.5%
America
1.0%
Native American
1.0%

Our results are also very similar for MyHeritage, except that you got all Irish Scot Welsh and I got all English for the British categories. I had thought my Iberian percentage was due to my French ancestry, and that my Eastern Europe and Baltic percentages were due to my Eastern European and German ancestry... but seeing as you have pretty much the same percentages as me for these, with higher Iberian, and you're entirely British (is that correct?) I think it's more likely that these two populations are severely over-sampled or their are problems with their samples. I know MyHeritage collected its sampled by choosing individuals from its database of family trees who were homogeneous, but at over 5000 individuals mistakes can definitely be made... perhaps they were a bit sloppy in their selection. You're clearly very British if 23andme's calculator got you at 75% in their B&I category, and you matched quite well with Ancestry's Irish reference panel too. My money is on MyHeritage having bad samples, but it might also be a bad calculator. I've uploaded my results from the same kit five times and have received some astonishingly different results within those, so something isn't nailed down properly there. At least FTDNA kept it to NW Europe, I'll give them that.
Don't buy that villa yet - but if you already have I'm happy to sleep on the floor and do your dishes if you let me stay there.

Now, a little more on topic. It's really interesting to see the variance in how these tests pick up your Cornish ancestry, I would have thought Ancestry would have identified it as Great Britain as they do actually have GB category samples from Cornwall:
17177
(I know Ireland is also green, but it is a darker green than the markers on Britain)
In contrast, FTDNA it looks like FTDNA at least partially identified your Cornish as W&C Europe. So I find it particularly interesting that those don't seem to agree on how to categorize you. Of course, like it usually does, 23andme does a pretty darn good job.
Thanks for sharing your results!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 07:27 AM
I think all these autosomol tests are like reading the tea leaves but some are better than others it seems. You can find common indicators but sometimes with very different labels. John

sktibo
06-25-2017, 07:37 AM
I think all these autosomol tests are like reading the tea leaves but some are better than others it seems. You can find common indicators but sometimes with very different labels. John

Sometimes the tea leaves can point you in the right direction, but most of these tests aren't really helpful. I like 23andme for overall accuracy, Living DNA to pinpoint British heritage, and AncestryDNA in combination with a family tree for the DNA Circles and other features. I think if these DNA tests get to the point where they have a large and even number of samples (and I should note they must be researched, quality samples) for every region they offer we will then start to see something much more real, and perhaps one day DNA testing could replace traditional genealogy.

timberwolf
06-25-2017, 08:03 AM
Hi Skitbo

Yes my paper trail is entirely British, with Cornish, English and I think Ulster Scots. Certainly what is now Northern Ireland.

In an earlier post I stated that there was a family rumor of Huguenot descent, however I have never found any evidence of that and the family line, apart from a rather French sounding name that was anglicized, however that family line is just a huge brick wall. That is the only indicator of any possible Continental ancestry I might have.

But even if I did have Huguenot ancestry,one is talking about two waves of refugees, first in the 16th century, and then another after 1685. I would seriously doubt that I would still inherit autosomal DNA that far back? I could be totally wrong about that.

With MyHeritage I think it is poor sampling. plus with its calculator still in Beta, it has the opportunity to improve. It is a free service, so perhaps I cannot criticize them too much.

With what I have read, southern French, and French Basque often appears as Iberian, and I would think perhaps that is were your French has disappeared into.
I would think that if you have ancestry from Alsace-Lorraine it could be categorized as German, and perhaps Brittany as Cornish????

with nMonte I got.

Brittany Is obviously Cornwall in my case.

FR_Bretagne 40.75
Northern Ireland 27.45
North_Dutch 16.05
Ireland 10.95
French_Basque 2.50
Scotland 1.75
Belgium 0.30
British_mixed 0.20
England 0.05

restricted nMonte
FR_Bretagne 41.4
Northern Ireland 28.2
North_Dutch 17.0
Ireland 10.9
French_Basque 2.5
Scotland 0.0

sktibo
06-25-2017, 08:40 AM
Hi Skitbo

Yes my paper trail is entirely British, with Cornish, English and I think Ulster Scots. Certainly what is now Northern Ireland.

In an earlier post I stated that there was a family rumor of Huguenot descent, however I have never found any evidence of that and the family line, apart from a rather French sounding name that was anglicized, however that family line is just a huge brick wall. That is the only indicator of any possible Continental ancestry I might have.

But even if I did have Huguenot ancestry,one is talking about two waves of refugees, first in the 16th century, and then another after 1685. I would seriously doubt that I would still inherit autosomal DNA that far back? I could be totally wrong about that.

With MyHeritage I think it is poor sampling. plus with its calculator still in Beta, it has the opportunity to improve. It is a free service, so perhaps I cannot criticize them too much.

With what I have read, southern French, and French Basque often appears as Iberian, and I would think perhaps that is were your French has disappeared into.
I would think that if you have ancestry from Alsace-Lorraine it could be categorized as German, and perhaps Brittany as Cornish????

with nMonte I got.

Brittany Is obviously Cornwall in my case.

FR_Bretagne 40.75
Northern Ireland 27.45
North_Dutch 16.05
Ireland 10.95
French_Basque 2.50
Scotland 1.75
Belgium 0.30
British_mixed 0.20
England 0.05

restricted nMonte
FR_Bretagne 41.4
Northern Ireland 28.2
North_Dutch 17.0
Ireland 10.9
French_Basque 2.5
Scotland 0.0

I'm pretty sure I have an ancestor born in the 1800's who i didn't inherit any DNA from, so at 1685 i don't think it's likely you got much from them.. at this point you're probably 100% island blood
yes, some of my French is Iberian-like, but it's not a massive amount - ftdna and ancestry both give me 6%, living DNA 1.2%, however 23andme only gives me 0.2% south Europe/ Iberia, and 9% French and German, which is quite close to my paper trail for French. So while it probably did disappear into my Iberia category on my heritage, at 18% it's still completely out of order, and seeing that yours is even more far gone, it then seems most likely that this category is flawed and not actually representative of my ancestry.
My nMonte for k36 results are posted over in the k36 Oracle thread, it does give me 5.3 and 7.4% Spain on my two kits I ran with it. 6 being the average, it agrees with ftdna and ancestry on this.. but this doesn't have much to do with Breton and Cornish ancestry!
Really interesting to see the Breton connection in your results. On Tolan's K36 map tool, Brittany is my highest component. Did you post your results for that yet?

JonikW
06-25-2017, 09:03 AM
So you got Western and Central European as your highest component for Ftdna too? MacEochaidh and I both had that problem with their test.. would you please post your ftdna results? I really want to see your my heritage results too if possible.

For what it's worth, my FTDNA results show 98% British Isles, <2% Southeast Europe, and West Middle East <1%. I did the autosomal transfer from 23andme and don't know how much of a difference that made to the outcome.
By way of reminder, my LivingDNA test in cautious mode:
South Wales border-related ancestry 86.8%
Cornwall 8%
Cumbria-related ancestry 5.2%

timberwolf
06-25-2017, 09:26 AM
In regards Tolans Map tool.

I have not posted as of yet other there. Simply because my technical skills are not the best. But I do plan to sort it out, and eventually post.

Northern Ireland is my highest category on all my kits, with Brittany, Irish Republic, Wales, Scotland, England the next highest. On the continent it is Normandy, Netherlands, followed by Denmark, Belgium and it looks like the Grand Est region of France. France scores higher than Germany across the board.

I also scored 9 % Iberian on my AncestryDNA test and 0.9 om 23andme. French German 4.4 on 23andme and a whopping 28% on ancestry.

Another thing I noted with MyHeritage I scored 0% English and on ancestry I only get 2% GB. Which is curious and a mystery.

JonikW
06-25-2017, 01:42 PM
Isn't Tolan a Breton?
His stats: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4394-Post-your-Eurogenes-Jtest-Results&p=81230#post81230



Like timberwolf said LivingDNA's Cornish is accurate.

JTest
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 1.306007
2 English @ 4.291861
3 Orcadian @ 4.554683
4 NL @ 4.786084
5 IE @ 4.797887
6 West_&_Central_German @ 6.071787
7 Scottish @ 6.087613
8 DK @ 7.695128
9 FR @ 9.827464
10 NO @ 10.017075

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +50% Cornish @ 1.306007

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Cornish +25% FR +25% IE @ 1.200030

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Cornish + Cornish + FR + Orcadian @ 1.021306
2 Cornish + FR + IE + IE @ 1.044720
3 Cornish + Cornish + FR + Orcadian @ 1.075706
4 Cornish + Cornish + FR + IE @ 1.179260
5 Cornish + Cornish + FR + IE @ 1.200030
6 Cornish + English + FR + FR @ 1.248310
7 Cornish + FR + IE + Scottish @ 1.259113
8 Cornish + English + FR + Scottish @ 1.271912
9 Cornish + Cornish + IE + Scottish @ 1.285832
10 Cornish + English + FR + IE @ 1.293602
11 Cornish + FR + IE + English @ 1.310095
12 Cornish + Cornish + Cornish + Cornish @ 1.316007

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.2% Cornish + 3.8% FR @ 0.86
2 98.6% Cornish + 1.4% Tuscan @ 0.88
3 95.3% Cornish + 4.7% FR @ 0.91
4 97.2% Cornish + 2.8% North_Italian @ 0.94
5 97.3% Cornish + 2.7% PT @ 0.94
6 97.3% Cornish + 2.7% ES @ 0.94
7 97.8% Cornish + 2.2% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 0.96
8 98.9% Cornish + 1.1% GR @ 0.96
9 99.8% Cornish + 0.2% Druze @ 1
10 100% Cornish + 0% Druze @ 1.01




By the way, MLDP 23b & Dodecads have Cornwall too.

Thanks. Do you have Living DNA results for comparison?

avalon
06-25-2017, 02:34 PM
I'm no expert on this stuff and happy to be corrected. On your my heritage results I would guess they are confusing your Cornish with Irish Scots and Welsh to some extent as matching to the closest population sets they have available ( their calculation may just be unreliable too).
I score Basque/Iberian quite consistently on various calculators, in fact it is the only Continental Europe I score on LivingDNA, although at a lower percentage than you. My ancestry is significantly Welsh including I believe some from North Wales (possibly Anglesey). I think my Basque/Iberian relates in some way to the most " old Welsh" of my Welsh ancestry. There could be other reasons for this this but my best guess at the moment is that "Basque" is a genetically relatively isolated population and may be closest to earlier populations in the British Isles. I tend to get small percentage matches with other relatively genetically isolated populations like the Kalash of NW Pakistan region and even recently Sardinian.
I can see that you might well get a similar effect for from someone from Cornwall as you would ancestry from the remoter parts of Wales. What this means I don't know but I'm wondering whether some of this could go back to even pre-Iron age peoples? As I said, I'm no expert and if someone can up with a better explanation, I would be happy to hear it. :) John

A bit off topic, but I noticed that sgdavies, who like you has a lot of South Wales ancestry, also scored a trace amount of Basque.

It's very speculative, but I agree with you that this trace amount could well be something very old in South Wales, possibly some sort of remnant from the Neolithic and from before the massive Bell Beaker arrival.

I've always fancied that the Silures that Tacitus spoke of may have been some sort of remnant Neolithic population that held out in relative isolation for a long time. Who knows, ancientDNA may well tell us one day!

JonikW
06-25-2017, 05:11 PM
A bit off topic, but I noticed that sgdavies, who like you has a lot of South Wales ancestry, also scored a trace amount of Basque.

It's very speculative, but I agree with you that this trace amount could well be something very old in South Wales, possibly some sort of remnant from the Neolithic and from before the massive Bell Beaker arrival.

I've always fancied that the Silures that Tacitus spoke of may have been some sort of remnant Neolithic population that held out in relative isolation for a long time. Who knows, ancientDNA may well tell us one day!

I lost my Basque (and Sardinian, which I still have on 23andme) with the update, but Living DNA does say this can be representative of ancient ancestry.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 06:36 PM
A bit off topic, but I noticed that sgdavies, who like you has a lot of South Wales ancestry, also scored a trace amount of Basque.

It's very speculative, but I agree with you that this trace amount could well be something very old in South Wales, possibly some sort of remnant from the Neolithic and from before the massive Bell Beaker arrival.

I've always fancied that the Silures that Tacitus spoke of may have been some sort of remnant Neolithic population that held out in relative isolation for a long time. Who knows, ancientDNA may well tell us one day!

I made the same point about the Silures myself a while ago. Possibly there was a grain of truth in what the Romans wrote, but of course there has been so much population movement and growth since, that any "distinctiveness" would have disappeared by now.
In fact I did suggest in another post that if the Welsh appear to be largely unaffected by pre-Roman population migration whilst the rest of Britain is ( If I understand that correctly) that may suggest a geographically static population for a long period, possibly pre-Iron age? That would conflict a bit with theories about the Welsh being driven westward into Wales by Anglo/Saxon migrations - maybe they were already there, at least in some parts? John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 06:38 PM
I lost my Basque (and Sardinian, which I still have on 23andme) with the update, but Living DNA does say this can be representative of ancient ancestry.

I now have your Sardinian and kept my Basque. ;) John

JonikW
06-25-2017, 07:09 PM
I now have your Sardinian and kept my Basque. ;) John

Just don't forget me when you inherit the Cecil ancestral home.;) I imagine the Welsh population would have seen incomers as a result of Anglo Saxon pressure as well as losing people to Cornwall and Brittany amid Irish incursions.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 07:38 PM
Just don't forget me when you inherit the Cecil ancestral home.;) I imagine the Welsh population would have seen incomers as a result of Anglo Saxon pressure as well as losing people to Cornwall and Brittany amid Irish incursions.

I'm thinking of popping out to Alt yr Ynys to measure up for some new curtains:-

17185

although maybe I should be thinking of something larger (only just discovered this :) ) :-

"Interestingly the family lineage can be traced through to the current Royal family - Prince Charles is the 12 times Great Grandson and Lady Diana was the 12 times Great Granddaughter of William Cecil."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSwY_729nUAhXHtBoKHbkNB94QjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgrowninengland.co.uk%2Fgiw_restau rant%2Fallt-yr-ynys-country-hotel%2F&psig=AFQjCNEGJSPT7VrcdLAhhhJkuJjvGR5EQw&ust=1498504890844792

I would guess my shared ancestry is from some poor servant lass being taken advantage of, or goes back to the days of some turnip- munching peasant. :)

I think there was Breton migration back to Britain well before the "Norman" bretons. I have seen a claim that Howells surname in the Welsh borders is from a Breton source, but no evidence was provided to justify that claim. There seems to be a Howells surname cluster in Norfolk which seems likely to be of Breton origin. (Hoel) John

JonikW
06-25-2017, 07:47 PM
I'm thinking of popping out to Alt yr Ynys to measure up for some new curtains:-

17185

although maybe I should be thinking of something larger (only just discovered this :) ) :-

"Interestingly the family lineage can be traced through to the current Royal family - Prince Charles is the 12 times Great Grandson and Lady Diana was the 12 times Great Granddaughter of William Cecil."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjSwY_729nUAhXHtBoKHbkNB94QjhwIBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgrowninengland.co.uk%2Fgiw_restau rant%2Fallt-yr-ynys-country-hotel%2F&psig=AFQjCNEGJSPT7VrcdLAhhhJkuJjvGR5EQw&ust=1498504890844792

I would guess my shared ancestry is from some poor servant lass being taken advantage of, or goes back to the days of some turnip- munching peasant. :)

I think there was Breton migration back to Britain well before the "Norman" bretons. I have seen a claim that Howells surname in the Welsh borders is from a Breton source, but no evidence was provided to justify that claim. There seems to be a Howells surname cluster in Norfolk which seems likely to be of Breton origin. (Hoel) John

Interestingly, there is a similar Cornish surname, Howell:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kernow/names_h.htm
You could well have come from a son of the main Welsh Cecil line but they just started using Howells when modern surnames came in and the first to use it was the son of Howell, or ap Howell.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 07:56 PM
Interestingly, there is a similar Cornish surname, Howell:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kernow/names_h.htm
You could well have come from a son of the main Welsh Cecil line but they just started using Howells when modern surnames came in and the first to use it was the son of Howell, or ap Howell.

Sorry I feel a bit guilty as I don't want to hijack the thread but that is exactly what I'm trying to follow up on. One of my ancestors was farming "Old Hay" farm very close to or part of Urishay castle, the seat of the De La Hay's in the mid- 1800's, then I found this.....?
" “Gift (13th January 1389)
Between
1) John de la Hay, lord of Urishay
2) Walter ap Howel
Parcel of land called Oldeheye [Old Hay], stretching from Walter’s house to Holbrokesford, and from land of William Syllas to land of Jevan Rygel, and one messuage enclosed by boundary markers, (enclosed from common land).
Walter to pay 2s 6d pa with all usual dues including suit of court.
Walter to enclose his fields, and pasture his beasts in the common pasture, viz. 12 steers and 12 cows, 2 horses and 40 sheep.
Warranty
Witnesses: John Henry, John Millies, John Wodman and others.
Given at Hay Urry, Wednesday next after Epiphany 10 Richard II."
Could this possibly be the same family or coincidence? - trying to get help from Hereford Records Office with that question. :) John

JonikW
06-25-2017, 08:07 PM
Sorry I feel a bit guilty as I don't want to hijack the thread but that is exactly what I'm trying to follow up on. One of my ancestors was farming "Old Hay" farm very close to or part of Urishay castle, the seat of the De La Hay's in the mid- 1800's, then I found this.....?
" “Gift (13th January 1389)
Between
1) John de la Hay, lord of Urishay
2) Walter ap Howel
Parcel of land called Oldeheye [Old Hay], stretching from Walter’s house to Holbrokesford, and from land of William Syllas to land of Jevan Rygel, and one messuage enclosed by boundary markers, (enclosed from common land).
Walter to pay 2s 6d pa with all usual dues including suit of court.
Walter to enclose his fields, and pasture his beasts in the common pasture, viz. 12 steers and 12 cows, 2 horses and 40 sheep.
Warranty
Witnesses: John Henry, John Millies, John Wodman and others.
Given at Hay Urry, Wednesday next after Epiphany 10 Richard II."
Could this possibly be the same family or coincidence? - trying to get help from Hereford Records Office with that question. :) John

Please keep us updated. You'll get your Buck House invite yet:). I often think that's what makes DNA so interesting. You think you know yourself so well and then you discover something that changes everything.

avalon
06-25-2017, 08:11 PM
I made the same point about the Silures myself a while ago. Possibly there was a grain of truth in what the Romans wrote, but of course there has been so much population movement and growth since, that any "distinctiveness" would have disappeared by now.
In fact I did suggest in another post that if the Welsh appear to be largely unaffected by pre-Roman population migration whilst the rest of Britain is ( If I understand that correctly) that may suggest a geographically static population for a long period, possibly pre-Iron age? That would conflict a bit with theories about the Welsh being driven westward into Wales by Anglo/Saxon migrations - maybe they were already there, at least in some parts? John

Yeh, I guess it's only really more ancientDNA from Wales that might help answer some of the questions about the Silures and other parts of Wales. That recent BB paper had two individuals from North Wales but really we need lots more to sort out the finer details.

My own view would be that due to its difficult, mountainous terrain and lack of rich farmland, the population of Wales has probably always been small. But this remoteness may also have enabled populations to remain relatively isolated when compared to other parts of Britain.

JonikW
06-25-2017, 08:16 PM
Yeh, I guess it's only really more ancientDNA from Wales that might help answer some of the questions about the Silures and other parts of Wales. That recent BB paper had two individuals from North Wales but really we need lots more to sort out the finer details.

My own view would be that due to its difficult, mountainous terrain and lack of rich farmland, the population of Wales has probably always been small. But this remoteness may also have enabled populations to remain relatively isolated when compared to other parts of Britain.

Similar with Cornwall I suppose, minus the mountains

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 08:56 PM
Similar with Cornwall I suppose, minus the mountains

I'm no expert but my understanding is cornwall was considered to be quite distinct from the rest of England, Cornish people seem to think so anyway and of course you have the retention of the language to some extent, which must say something about a distinct character similar to Brittany maybe. John

sktibo
06-25-2017, 09:07 PM
I'm no expert but my understanding is cornwall was considered to be quite distinct from the rest of England, Cornish people seem to think so anyway and of course you have the retention of the language to some extent, which must say something about a distinct character similar to Brittany maybe. John

Cornwall and Devon certainly look to be a distinct population in the POBI, which is surprising due to historical linguistic ties these regions might have had with Wales. Of course, Devon resembles a watered down version of Cornwall.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 09:11 PM
Cornwall and Devon certainly look to be a distinct population in the POBI, which is surprising due to historical linguistic ties these regions might have had with Wales. Of course, Devon resembles a watered down version of Cornwall.

I think maybe people do assume that "Celtic" populations are basically the same, language, culture, but I've long thought there could be more diversity than we currently think. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-25-2017, 09:15 PM
Please keep us updated. You'll get your Buck House invite yet:). I often think that's what makes DNA so interesting. You think you know yourself so well and then you discover something that changes everything.

I'm more a man of the common people, salt of the earth, me. ;) It certainly is a turn-up. The best thing for me is that it gives me something specific to follow - up when you hit a wall with paper records. John

sktibo
06-25-2017, 09:32 PM
I think maybe people do assume that "Celtic" populations are basically the same, language, culture, but I've long thought there could be more diversity than we currently think. John

Completely agree, although their primary origin source seems to be Bell Beaker people, that was a long time ago and each population seems to have developed into something unique. That's my take on it anyhow!

JonikW
06-25-2017, 09:49 PM
I think maybe people do assume that "Celtic" populations are basically the same, language, culture, but I've long thought there could be more diversity than we currently think. John

And yet there is an essential "feel" that's the same in addition to the languages and history. I remember as a kid driving over moorland in Cornwall and being told to look out for piskies or pixies. That mystical feel from standing stones to green moors, mists and tales of the little folk is common to all. Not scientific in any way of course...

avalon
06-25-2017, 10:26 PM
And yet there is an essential "feel" that's the same in addition to the languages and history. I remember as a kid driving over moorland in Cornwall and being told to look out for piskies or pixies. That mystical feel from standing stones to green moors, mists and tales of the little folk is common to all. Not scientific in any way of course...

I know what you mean, in a similar way with Wales. Years ago I read quite a bit about Welsh folklore, in which fairies often featured. In the tales they were the mysterious little people who were afraid of iron but good with their animals.

Some have interpreted these as folk memories of an ancient people. The romantic in me quite likes that idea...:) anyway, way off topic now so I'll stop.......

06-26-2017, 07:43 AM
Completely agree, although their primary origin source seems to be Bell Beaker people, that was a long time ago and each population seems to have developed into something unique. That's my take on it anyhow!

I tend to agree, isn't this what's called "Genetic Drift", as once very similar populations become more isolated over many generations occur through natural selection, a change occurs?
If that's the case with the POBI study, can it be that the POBI regions which have shown to be distinct, and not a unified Celtic grouping be explained by Genetic drift? or is there more to it?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-26-2017, 08:52 AM
I tend to agree, isn't this what's called "Genetic Drift", as once very similar populations become more isolated over many generations occur through natural selection, a change occurs?
If that's the case with the POBI study, can it be that the POBI regions which have shown to be distinct, and not a unified Celtic grouping be explained by Genetic drift? or is there more to it?

Difficult to know I suppose. I just gather from my own results that there are certain isolated places that appear to show earlier genetic ancestry than others like Otzi the Iceman being closest to modern Sardinians. If Sardinians had changed that much through genetic drift would those similarities with old populations exist? Why would I still seem to have something in common with the Kalash?
I must admit I don't fully understand the process but I think it's possible "Old" British populations could be over-laid by newer arrivals and remnants of those very old populations could still exist. I'm thinking pre-Roman. :) John

Amerijoe
06-26-2017, 12:42 PM
Cornwall and Devon certainly look to be a distinct population in the POBI, which is surprising due to historical linguistic ties these regions might have had with Wales. Of course, Devon resembles a watered down version of Cornwall.

Had this private admixture done by Dienekes Pontikos, his public admixture Dodecad is on Gedmatch. I thought you may be interested because of his deeper breakdown of regions. Haven't assigned the breakdown to Livingdna regions, maybe some local members can help with the placement. Someone who lives there is usually superior to a map. To me all these locations are could be or maybe, but it looks good. Tell me what you think. :) Joe


17211

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-26-2017, 07:49 PM
Had this private admixture done by Dienekes Pontikos, his public admixture Dodecad is on Gedmatch. I thought you may be interested because of his deeper breakdown of regions. Haven't assigned the breakdown to Livingdna regions, maybe some local members can help with the placement. Someone who lives there is usually superior to a map. To me all these locations are could be or maybe, but it looks good. Tell me what you think. :) Joe


17211

Gwynned and Dyfed are North West and West Wales respectively. Gwynned includes Snowdonia.
I suppose you could call them maybe the most "Welsh" parts of Wales. I may have some ancestry from Anglesey, or at least that general area. Some people from these areas did move to South and East Wales though, during the industrial revolution. John

sktibo
06-27-2017, 05:35 AM
Had this private admixture done by Dienekes Pontikos, his public admixture Dodecad is on Gedmatch. I thought you may be interested because of his deeper breakdown of regions. Haven't assigned the breakdown to Livingdna regions, maybe some local members can help with the placement. Someone who lives there is usually superior to a map. To me all these locations are could be or maybe, but it looks good. Tell me what you think. :) Joe


17211

Hi Joe,
I'm not completely sure what this is? Is this the results of a single individual? is it you? if not who are they and where are they from? Thanks!

moesan
06-28-2017, 08:54 PM
A bit off topic, but I noticed that sgdavies, who like you has a lot of South Wales ancestry, also scored a trace amount of Basque.

It's very speculative, but I agree with you that this trace amount could well be something very old in South Wales, possibly some sort of remnant from the Neolithic and from before the massive Bell Beaker arrival.

I've always fancied that the Silures that Tacitus spoke of may have been some sort of remnant Neolithic population that held out in relative isolation for a long time. Who knows, ancientDNA may well tell us one day!

I 'd not be surprised if this "basque" was a mix of specific Neolithic farmers (more Cardial than Danubian pre-LBK) and specific WHG inheritage remained strong among today Basques but more common before the metal Ages? Some specific "atlantic stuff", pre-Celtic even pre-Ligurian or pre-any other wanderers of those times -

Amerijoe
06-28-2017, 09:19 PM
Hi Joe,
I'm not completely sure what this is? Is this the results of a single individual? is it you? if not who are they and where are they from? Thanks!


This is me based on the raw data from 23andMe. It does add credence to my Livingdna results on a regional basis at least halfway, so to speak. The Welsh mixtures were interesting considering a Jones for an ancestor also having a forename with Welsh affinity.

Passing the portrait of my composite Dad, I noticed a slight smile, upon further study discovered a small battle axe leaning against a wall now in the painting. Rush over to Livingdna and low and behold a wee bit of Scandinavian (4.6%) has been added to my results. Hopefully it's enough to call myself a Scandinavian Kurd. Gotta love DNA!

JonikW
06-28-2017, 10:07 PM
I 'd not be surprised if this "basque" was a mix of specific Neolithic farmers (more Cardial than Danubian pre-LBK) and specific WHG inheritage remained strong among today Basques but more common before the metal Ages? Some specific "atlantic stuff", pre-Celtic even pre-Ligurian or pre-any other wanderers of those times -

Are you interested in doing the LivingDNA test, even if illegally?! It would be interesting to see your Cornwall score. I'm not advocating breaking French law of course, just asking.

moesan
06-29-2017, 10:11 AM
Are you interested in doing the LivingDNA test, even if illegally?! It would be interesting to see your Cornwall score. I'm not advocating breaking French law of course, just asking.

It depends on the cost of it: I'm rather short for money to date (a new car to buy, even if second hand) - I had a complete test by Britain DNA but I don' t think they shares their wok with other companies. Concerning french law I don't care!
by the way I'm not pure Breton, but only 7/16 (7/16 Île-de-France, 1/16 Normand, 1/16 Nth FrancheComté (a dragon of Napoleaon the 1st, lost in Brittany around 1800!)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-29-2017, 12:30 PM
This is me based on the raw data from 23andMe. It does add credence to my Livingdna results on a regional basis at least halfway, so to speak. The Welsh mixtures were interesting considering a Jones for an ancestor also having a forename with Welsh affinity.

Passing the portrait of my composite Dad, I noticed a slight smile, upon further study discovered a small battle axe leaning against a wall now in the painting. Rush over to Livingdna and low and behold a wee bit of Scandinavian (4.6%) has been added to my results. Hopefully it's enough to call myself a Scandinavian Kurd. Gotta love DNA!

Hey Joe, I think my Jones were from North Wales from an American Family Finder match, maybe we are related, Jones being a rare name in these parts. ;) John

avalon
06-29-2017, 12:40 PM
Gwynned and Dyfed are North West and West Wales respectively. Gwynned includes Snowdonia.
I suppose you could call them maybe the most "Welsh" parts of Wales. I may have some ancestry from Anglesey, or at least that general area. Some people from these areas did move to South and East Wales though, during the industrial revolution. John

Sorry for off topic but if you watch the series "Who do you think you are"? there was an episode last winter that featured the actor/comedian Greg Davies. Fascinating story about his great grandfather, I believe, who due to some sort of family shame, left his family behind in Porthmadog, and ended up in the Valleys and started another family there!! This was late 1800s I think.

Amerijoe
06-29-2017, 01:29 PM
Hey Joe, I think my Jones were from North Wales from an American Family Finder match, maybe we are related, Jones being a rare name in these parts. ;) John

I would enjoy nothing more than being relatives, but I think the Welsh which shows up in Livingdna and some admixtures is considerably in the past, but there's always hope. It's interesting how Dienekes was able to pull the Welsh with such refinement in my admixture analysis. The caveat being his analysis is no better or worst than any of the available testing companies. They are all interpretive based on each developer's algorithms, a mix of science and conjecture.

Since the beginning of my Dad search, one thing is quite apparent. Results are updated with populations added, others deleted and others being more closely defined. This has being true of all testing companies and most say future will hold more of the same. It's like playing the children's game, Pin The Tail On The Donkey, except this donkey keeps moving. When I say tongue in cheek, Scandinavian Kurd is to illustrate this point. I've also been an Arabian Scot, and Ashkenazi Irishman, a Middle Eastern Brit. You get my point. Doing do diligence, one can unwind some essence out of each comedic description, but only with some foundational knowledge. Extremely confusing for the newly initiated. With science forging ahead will be enter an era of enlightenment or continue to wallow in a sea of confusion?

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-29-2017, 07:48 PM
I would enjoy nothing more than being relatives, but I think the Welsh which shows up in Livingdna and some admixtures is considerably in the past, but there's always hope. It's interesting how Dienekes was able to pull the Welsh with such refinement in my admixture analysis. The caveat being his analysis is no better or worst than any of the available testing companies. They are all interpretive based on each developer's algorithms, a mix of science and conjecture.

Since the beginning of my Dad search, one thing is quite apparent. Results are updated with populations added, others deleted and others being more closely defined. This has being true of all testing companies and most say future will hold more of the same. It's like playing the children's game, Pin The Tail On The Donkey, except this donkey keeps moving. When I say tongue in cheek, Scandinavian Kurd is to illustrate this point. I've also been an Arabian Scot, and Ashkenazi Irishman, a Middle Eastern Brit. You get my point. Doing do diligence, one can unwind some essence out of each comedic description, but only with some foundational knowledge. Extremely confusing for the newly initiated. With science forging ahead will be enter an era of enlightenment or continue to wallow in a sea of confusion?

Don't worry Joe, I've been 40% Scandinavian, Ashkenazi, Finnish, Basque, Kalash and Native American etc. etc. on a regular basis. I'm sure they will unravel it all one day, but I don't know if I will still be around to see it. :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
06-29-2017, 07:54 PM
Sorry for off topic but if you watch the series "Who do you think you are"? there was an episode last winter that featured the actor/comedian Greg Davies. Fascinating story about his great grandfather, I believe, who due to some sort of family shame, left his family behind in Porthmadog, and ended up in the Valleys and started another family there!! This was late 1800s I think.

Yes I think I recall it. I would love to know if my Jones' were from North Wales but the paper trail is so hard to follow. My Jones great grandparents were both Welsh speakers, but that's as far as I have tracked, they could have been from West Wales or even local to Monmouthshire.
I suppose the South Wales valleys were like gold rush country in those days relatively speaking. John

Rach_27
07-16-2017, 03:25 AM
I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? 17576

moesan
07-29-2017, 04:02 PM
I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? 17576

a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...

07-29-2017, 05:02 PM
I also have Cornish ancestry through my Jewell family line which shows up in some oracles. Could it be categorized under Irish in AncestryDNA? 17576

Could be, I think anywhere in the Western side of Britain, could come under Ireland in Ancestry, it’s my understanding.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-29-2017, 07:37 PM
a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...

Can I ask you a question about Breton names please? My paternal ancestry seems to have been in the Welsh Borders, Herefordshire back to 1699, where I believe there was a fairly significant Breton presence post-conquest. The surname Howells (Not Howell or Powell) appears to be concentrated in West Wales, the Welsh Border Counties and unexpectedly in Norfolk where I believe there was also a Breton presence. I understand there is or was a Breton equivalent of the name Howel/Hywel - "Hoel"? I believe there was a King of Brittany of that name?
I appear to share paternal descent with the Cecils (William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc) although it seems my branch pre-dates the Burghley branch. One (unproved) version of the Cecil origins is with Robert Sitsyllt a follower on Robert Fitzhamon in the conquest of Glamorgan about 1090. Is there a Breton or Norman name with similarities to Sitsyllt, Cecil or Saissil please? If the answer is no then at least I will have some idea. We are all U106 Z326 which I appreciate may not be that representative of Breton ancestry. We are looking at estimated dates for the SNPs at the moment. Would appreciate your thoughts. John

Rach_27
07-29-2017, 11:22 PM
a bit aside of the topic: have you searched for the JEWELL name origin?
because it could be the breton name JUHEL, from IUD-HAEL, a name which lost weight in breton speaking area (where the J- was pronounced like Y-) but is still cMmon enough in Central and Eastern Brittany, pronounced with french /j-/ - the East Brittany little noblemen who went to Britain along with William the Bastard spoke no more breton for the most of them and had as often germanic or roman names as celtic names, but nevertheless brought some common celtic breton names to Britain, respelled like: JEKYLL (IUDIC-HAEL - a son of a IUDHAEL! - >>JEZEQUEL/GICQUEL), WIGAN (UUICON>>GUEGUEN/GUEGAN), ALLEN (ALLAN/ALLEN), WHYMARK (UUI-HO-MARC>>GUYOMARD/GUYONVARC'H)...

Very interesting, thanks, I will have to look into the origin of the name. My Jewell ancestors lived in Cornwall but that is as much as I know at this stage.. :)

moesan
07-30-2017, 10:33 PM
I 'll search but not sure to find something about Sitsyllt or close names -
curiously (or not) Fitzhamon remind me of the second name and christian name Hamon very common in Brittany spite a well supposed Germanic origin, and honoured as a Breton saint, with derived surnames as Hémon, Hémonou, Hamonic, Hamono, Hamonou in Breton speaking areas; the Breton knights of William the Bastard often took names formed on the FITZ-... or ....-KIN models after two or three generations, if what I red is true (look at FItzwalter FitzAlan, founder of the Stewart's/Stuart's - Yes there has been breton knights in East Anglia, more in Essex I suppose; but the name Whymark doesn't seem "foreign" in Norfolk.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-31-2017, 06:03 AM
I 'll search but not sure to find something about Sitsyllt or close names -
curiously (or not) Fitzhamon remind me of the second name and christian name Hamon very common in Brittany spite a well supposed Germanic origin, and honoured as a Breton saint, with derived surnames as Hémon, Hémonou, Hamonic, Hamono, Hamonou in Breton speaking areas; the Breton knights of William the Bastard often took names formed on the FITZ-... or ....-KIN models after two or three generations, if what I red is true (look at FItzwalter FitzAlan, founder of the Stewart's/Stuart's - Yes there has been breton knights in East Anglia, more in Essex I suppose; but the name Whymark doesn't seem "foreign" in Norfolk.

Thanks, don't go to too much trouble, I just thought you might have heard of it or not. If you haven't maybe it isn't likely.
Fitzhamon is sometimes written Fitzhamo without the "n" in some documents. Link on Fitzhamon below.John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjF1O7M6rLVAhVHUBQKHb9hCZ4QFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FRobert _Fitzhamon&usg=AFQjCNHlL5gJi7srp0lRYlktognSV3M0BQ

Sassoneg
08-02-2017, 04:16 PM
I thought LivingDNA got my British breakdown correct. It gives 3.3% Cornwall which comes from about 7 gens back of a Woolcocke/Woolcox/Wilcox that went to Canada. Other Cornwall names include Vercoe.

R1b>L21>Z253

moesan
08-19-2017, 07:55 PM
Can I ask you a question about Breton names please? My paternal ancestry seems to have been in the Welsh Borders, Herefordshire back to 1699, where I believe there was a fairly significant Breton presence post-conquest. The surname Howells (Not Howell or Powell) appears to be concentrated in West Wales, the Welsh Border Counties and unexpectedly in Norfolk where I believe there was also a Breton presence. I understand there is or was a Breton equivalent of the name Howel/Hywel - "Hoel"? I believe there was a King of Brittany of that name?
I appear to share paternal descent with the Cecils (William Cecil 1st Baron Burghley etc) although it seems my branch pre-dates the Burghley branch. One (unproved) version of the Cecil origins is with Robert Sitsyllt a follower on Robert Fitzhamon in the conquest of Glamorgan about 1090. Is there a Breton or Norman name with similarities to Sitsyllt, Cecil or Saissil please? If the answer is no then at least I will have some idea. We are all U106 Z326 which I appreciate may not be that representative of Breton ancestry. We are looking at estimated dates for the SNPs at the moment. Would appreciate your thoughts. John

Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-19-2017, 08:25 PM
Y-R1b-U106 exists in Brittany spite it's not a major lineage and could be from Vikings or Franks - TJ MORGAN and Rhys MORGAN in their book about welsh names seem thinking the forms in Seisyll/Seisyllt/Sitsyltt preceded the forms Cecil and that the spelling of the name now spelled Cecil (family of Burghly) was close to the above names, and the family cradle would have been in Allterynnis/Alltyrynys, near Abergavenny, Gwent - they cites in the borders forms like Seithlid, Seyisyllt, Seisil, Seisill ap Saisall, Seisild, Syshelth... among others in old acts. In Brittany I don't see any surname coming close to Sesyltt/Cecil (a confusion with the romance name based on the root meaning "blind"?)

Thank you for that I appreciate it. My paternal ancestors lived about 10 miles from Alt Yr Ynys. My branch pre-dates the Burghley branch, common ancestor about 1300 AD (estimate).
Yes you are right there was a theory that the origin of the Cecil name could have been from the Roman Caecilius. I've also seen it suggested it could relate to Sextus (sixth).
I think a Norman ( and allies) origin is quite possible but I can't relate the surname Cecil to that origin. Hywel or Howell (forename ) could have a Breton influence from Hoel. Howells - (Howell/Hywel's son) is quite concentrated in this area.
Many thanks again for the reply. John

18213

Trelvern
08-10-2018, 10:20 AM
QUOTE=firemonkey;250361]My father's result- Jtest

Hi
I'm breton (NW Brittany )

same test (Jtest)
# Population Percent
1 ATLANTIC 30.87
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.69
3 WEST_MED 12.15
4 EAST_EURO 10.07
5 SOUTH_BALTIC 8.93
6 WEST_ASIAN 5.50
7 ASHKENAZI 4.77
8 EAST_MED 3.01


Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
14 components mode.

--------------------------------

ORACLE4
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 5.211161
2 IE @ 6.268583
3 Scottish @ 6.814747
4 Orcadian @ 6.860622
5 English @ 7.900768
6 NL @ 8.880779
7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.744564
8 FR @ 10.721975
9 DK @ 11.292246
10 NO @ 13.623881
11 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 14.838320
12 AT @ 16.195004
13 ES @ 17.776211
14 North_Swedish @ 18.287462
15 PT @ 18.412764
16 French_Basque @ 21.431704
17 HU @ 22.176613
18 North_Italian @ 23.160421
19 Serbian @ 23.963236
20 RO @ 26.453062

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% FR +50% Scottish @ 4.660706


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% IE +25% PT +25% Scottish @ 4.197095


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 ES + IE + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.740904
2 ES + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.791321
3 ES + IE + IE + Scottish @ 3.804118
4 ES + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.946230
5 ES + IE + IE + IE @ 4.001101
6 ES + IE + Orcadian + Scottish @ 4.002844
7 French_Basque + IE + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.081863
8 French_Basque + IE + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.090067
9 IE + PT + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.090827
10 PT + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.092997
11 French_Basque + IE + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.097557
12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.117821
13 Cornish + ES + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.147396
14 ES + IE + IE + Orcadian @ 4.159946
15 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.161339
16 English + French_Basque + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.177003
17 IE + IE + PT + Scottish @ 4.197095
18 French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.202916
19 English + French_Basque + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.213748
20 Cornish + ES + IE + Scottish @ 4.218012

ORACLE
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Cornish 4.62
2 IE 5.58
3 Scottish 6.1
4 Orcadian 6.12
5 English 6.95
6 NL 7.84
7 West_&_Central_German 8.59
8 FR 9.43
9 DK 9.92
10 NO 12.02
11 South_&_Central_Swedish 13.14
12 AT 14.2
13 ES 15.69
14 PT 16.2
15 North_Swedish 16.26
16 French_Basque 19.09
17 HU 19.51
18 North_Italian 20.02
19 Serbian 20.7
20 RO 22.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.1% Scottish + 24.9% ES @ 3.38
2 78% IE + 22% ES @ 3.54
3 90.7% Scottish + 9.3% Sardinian @ 3.57
4 83% Scottish + 17% Tuscan @ 3.64
5 76.4% Scottish + 23.6% PT @ 3.65
6 64% Scottish + 36% FR @ 3.65
7 79.5% Orcadian + 20.5% French_Basque @ 3.77
8 82.1% IE + 17.9% French_Basque @ 3.81
9 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% North_Italian @ 3.81
10 79.6% IE + 20.4% PT @ 3.84
11 88% Cornish + 12% French_Basque @ 3.85
12 68.3% IE + 31.7% FR @ 3.9
13 85.8% IE + 14.2% Tuscan @ 3.93
14 83.6% IE + 16.4% North_Italian @ 4.03
15 76.9% Orcadian + 23.1% ES @ 4.09
16 96.4% Cornish + 3.6% GE @ 4.15
17 88.2% Scottish + 11.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.18
18 91.4% IE + 8.6% AJ @ 4.23
19 96.5% Cornish + 3.5% Armenian @ 4.25
20 93% IE + 7% Sardinian @ 4.27

JonikW
08-10-2018, 11:43 AM
QUOTE=firemonkey;250361]My father's result- Jtest

Hi
I'm breton (NW Brittany )

same test (Jtest)
# Population Percent
1 ATLANTIC 30.87
2 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 24.69
3 WEST_MED 12.15
4 EAST_EURO 10.07
5 SOUTH_BALTIC 8.93
6 WEST_ASIAN 5.50
7 ASHKENAZI 4.77
8 EAST_MED 3.01


Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
14 components mode.

--------------------------------

ORACLE4
Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 5.211161
2 IE @ 6.268583
3 Scottish @ 6.814747
4 Orcadian @ 6.860622
5 English @ 7.900768
6 NL @ 8.880779
7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.744564
8 FR @ 10.721975
9 DK @ 11.292246
10 NO @ 13.623881
11 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 14.838320
12 AT @ 16.195004
13 ES @ 17.776211
14 North_Swedish @ 18.287462
15 PT @ 18.412764
16 French_Basque @ 21.431704
17 HU @ 22.176613
18 North_Italian @ 23.160421
19 Serbian @ 23.963236
20 RO @ 26.453062

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% FR +50% Scottish @ 4.660706


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% IE +25% PT +25% Scottish @ 4.197095


Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 ES + IE + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.740904
2 ES + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.791321
3 ES + IE + IE + Scottish @ 3.804118
4 ES + Orcadian + Scottish + Scottish @ 3.946230
5 ES + IE + IE + IE @ 4.001101
6 ES + IE + Orcadian + Scottish @ 4.002844
7 French_Basque + IE + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.081863
8 French_Basque + IE + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.090067
9 IE + PT + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.090827
10 PT + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.092997
11 French_Basque + IE + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.097557
12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.117821
13 Cornish + ES + Scottish + Scottish @ 4.147396
14 ES + IE + IE + Orcadian @ 4.159946
15 French_Basque + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_&_Central_German @ 4.161339
16 English + French_Basque + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.177003
17 IE + IE + PT + Scottish @ 4.197095
18 French_Basque + Scottish + Scottish + West_&_Central_German @ 4.202916
19 English + French_Basque + IE + West_&_Central_German @ 4.213748
20 Cornish + ES + IE + Scottish @ 4.218012

ORACLE
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Cornish 4.62
2 IE 5.58
3 Scottish 6.1
4 Orcadian 6.12
5 English 6.95
6 NL 7.84
7 West_&_Central_German 8.59
8 FR 9.43
9 DK 9.92
10 NO 12.02
11 South_&_Central_Swedish 13.14
12 AT 14.2
13 ES 15.69
14 PT 16.2
15 North_Swedish 16.26
16 French_Basque 19.09
17 HU 19.51
18 North_Italian 20.02
19 Serbian 20.7
20 RO 22.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.1% Scottish + 24.9% ES @ 3.38
2 78% IE + 22% ES @ 3.54
3 90.7% Scottish + 9.3% Sardinian @ 3.57
4 83% Scottish + 17% Tuscan @ 3.64
5 76.4% Scottish + 23.6% PT @ 3.65
6 64% Scottish + 36% FR @ 3.65
7 79.5% Orcadian + 20.5% French_Basque @ 3.77
8 82.1% IE + 17.9% French_Basque @ 3.81
9 80.5% Scottish + 19.5% North_Italian @ 3.81
10 79.6% IE + 20.4% PT @ 3.84
11 88% Cornish + 12% French_Basque @ 3.85
12 68.3% IE + 31.7% FR @ 3.9
13 85.8% IE + 14.2% Tuscan @ 3.93
14 83.6% IE + 16.4% North_Italian @ 4.03
15 76.9% Orcadian + 23.1% ES @ 4.09
16 96.4% Cornish + 3.6% GE @ 4.15
17 88.2% Scottish + 11.8% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 4.18
18 91.4% IE + 8.6% AJ @ 4.23
19 96.5% Cornish + 3.5% Armenian @ 4.25
20 93% IE + 7% Sardinian @ 4.27

Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?

Trelvern
08-11-2018, 07:39 AM
"Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?"

I tested from MyHeritage.
It's not easy here :the law is very restrictive.
the results were so weird! (29,9 scandinavian,29,6 W british isles,27 iberian!) I guess iberian includes France!
So i transfered my file to DnaLand and Gedmatch far more relevant and accurate.

25177

JonikW
08-11-2018, 08:15 AM
"Thanks for that. I get Cornish 4.72 as my closest distance there, so similar to you. Where have you tested and what were your results there?"

I tested from MyHeritage.
It's not easy here :the law is very restrictive.
the results were so weird! (29,9 scandinavian,29,6 W british isles,27 iberian!) I guess iberian includes France!
So i transfered my file to DnaLand and Gedmatch far more relevant and accurate.

25177

Thanks for posting Lucasz's map. It certainly seems to show what a Breton might expect. Did any of your family speak the language in recent generations? I hope youngsters still want to learn it today.

timberwolf
08-11-2018, 08:50 AM
As a comparison my Jtest

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 9.93
EAST_EURO 11.27
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 27.28
ATLANTIC 31.31
WEST_MED 13.96
ASHKENAZI 0.34
EAST_MED 3.18
WEST_ASIAN 2.74

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 5.241220
2 IE @ 6.037948
3 Orcadian @ 6.815713
4 Scottish @ 7.216062
5 English @ 7.330487
6 NL @ 8.504045
7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.835683
8 DK @ 10.145460
9 FR @ 11.714994
10 NO @ 12.296010

The map is not too dissimilar to mine

Trelvern
08-11-2018, 01:56 PM
Thanks for posting Lucasz's map. It certainly seems to show what a Breton might expect. Did any of your family speak the language in recent generations? I hope youngsters still want to learn it today.

Yes my parents were breton speakers
But I don't!
Nowadays this language is a dying one despite all efforts.

Trelvern
08-11-2018, 02:27 PM
As a comparison my Jtest

Population
SOUTH_BALTIC 9.93
EAST_EURO 11.27
NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 27.28
ATLANTIC 31.31
WEST_MED 13.96
ASHKENAZI 0.34
EAST_MED 3.18
WEST_ASIAN 2.74

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Cornish @ 5.241220
2 IE @ 6.037948
3 Orcadian @ 6.815713
4 Scottish @ 7.216062
5 English @ 7.330487
6 NL @ 8.504045
7 West_&_Central_German @ 9.835683
8 DK @ 10.145460
9 FR @ 11.714994
10 NO @ 12.296010

The map is not too dissimilar to mine

Have you tested K16?


# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 33.4
2 Steppe 26.02
3 NorthEastEuropean 21.89
4 Caucasian 17.85
5 NorthAfrican 0.39
6 Indian 0.34
7 Amerindian 0.11

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French (France) 4.03
2 English (Kent) 5.59
3 French (WestFrance) 6.31
4 English (Cornwall) 6.41
5 Irish (Connacht) 6.46
6 Scottish (Grampian) 6.61
7 Irish (Cork_Kerry) 6.67
8 Irish (Leinster) 6.82
9 German (Germany) 6.91
10 Irish (Ulster) 6.93
11 English (England) 7.01
12 Scottish (Highlands) 7.03
13 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 7.41
14 Scottish (Fife) 7.45
15 French (NorthwestFrance) 7.58
16 Irish (Munster) 7.62
17 Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) 7.63
18 Scottish (Borders) 7.79
19 French (EastFrance) 7.97
20 Scottish (Argyll_bute)

Trelvern
08-11-2018, 02:34 PM
British people seems have less Early Farmers than continental (Neolithics wiped out at bronze age by Bell Beakers)
Is it true?
Tested K16 or K23 or something like that?

spruithean
08-11-2018, 03:05 PM
I actually have fairly recent Cornish ancestors, and their descendants moved in to Devon before eventually moving to the London area and marrying more Southeast English families and JTest and EUTest are one of the few calculators with a Cornish population which shows my top result as being some mix of Cornish, Orcadian, Scottish/Irish and Dutch. Usually Orcadian and Cornish switch places depending on the calculator.

However the other Eurogenes calculators are good at detecting some level of Scottish/Irish, Southwest & Southeast England and some form of Germanic for me (it should be Dutch, usually pops up as North German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish).

JonikW
08-11-2018, 04:26 PM
British people seems have less Early Farmers than continental (Neolithics wiped out at bronze age by Bell Beakers)
Is it true?
Tested K16 or K23 or something like that?

I haven't tested those but would like to. My last visit to Stonehenge was post Beaker paper and I saw things very differently knowing that there's not much of those people left in our DNA.

Camulogène Rix
08-11-2018, 05:53 PM
I haven't tested those but would like to. My last visit to Stonehenge was post Beaker paper and I saw things very differently knowing that there's not much of those people left in our DNA.

Stonehenge phase IV was probably built by the newcomers:

Stonehenge 3 IV (2280 BC to 1930 BC)
This phase saw further rearrangement of the bluestones. They were arranged in a circle between the two rings of sarsens and in an oval at the centre of the inner ring. Some archaeologists argue that some of these bluestones were from a second group brought from Wales. All the stones formed well-spaced uprights without any of the linking lintels inferred in Stonehenge 3 III. The Altar Stone may have been moved within the oval at this time and re-erected vertically. Although this would seem the most impressive phase of work, Stonehenge 3 IV was rather shabbily built compared to its immediate predecessors, as the newly re-installed bluestones were not well-founded and began to fall over. However, only minor changes were made after this phase.

JonikW
08-11-2018, 07:30 PM
Stonehenge phase IV was probably built by the newcomers:

Stonehenge 3 IV (2280 BC to 1930 BC)
This phase saw further rearrangement of the bluestones. They were arranged in a circle between the two rings of sarsens and in an oval at the centre of the inner ring. Some archaeologists argue that some of these bluestones were from a second group brought from Wales. All the stones formed well-spaced uprights without any of the linking lintels inferred in Stonehenge 3 III. The Altar Stone may have been moved within the oval at this time and re-erected vertically. Although this would seem the most impressive phase of work, Stonehenge 3 IV was rather shabbily built compared to its immediate predecessors, as the newly re-installed bluestones were not well-founded and began to fall over. However, only minor changes were made after this phase.

There's also evidence of Mesolithic posts at the site as far as I remember. But you're right that there was interaction with the newcomers. That's particularly interesting in light of the more than 90 percent replacement within a few hundred years.

Clarke
08-14-2018, 11:27 PM
Deleted

Saetro
08-16-2018, 07:41 AM
I haven't tested those but would like to. My last visit to Stonehenge was post Beaker paper and I saw things very differently knowing that there's not much of those people left in our DNA.

Speak for yourself.
I score over 40% HG.
I'll just have to own up to friends as being largely primitive, I guess.

Will be heading close to Stonehenge in the near future.
If you see someone near there holding a sign "Beakers out!" that could be me, carried away with myself.

JonikW
08-16-2018, 01:24 PM
I'm in the same position as you of course; HG and Bronze Age swamp my Neolithic. Just was really interested in those people as a kid and liked to think of them as my ancestors. As for Stonehenge, when I was a kid you could walk right up to the stones every day; then for years they only allowed you a distant view. On my last visit they'd moved the path so you can get close. Here's a pic I took last October. I hope it whets your appetite because you're in for a treat.;)

25293

glentane
08-16-2018, 02:12 PM
As Geoff Carter suggests in his excellent blog

It is with some reluctance that I turn to Stonehenge. It is a unique and exceptional monument, and it carries a considerable weight of romantic and scholastic preconceptions. It has strong visual culture reflecting its current state, and to suggest it was once a wooden building seems counter intuitive.
http://structuralarchaeology.blogspot.com/2011/06/stonehenge-and-archaeology-of.html

But he ploughs on bravely

The scale of these structures clearly implies they were built at the limit of what was considered prudent by builders in Prehistory. This is a craft that was several thousand years old, and by this period we have evidence of a new elite who would normally be expected to express wealth and power in the built environment.

My presumption is that Stonehenge was a temple built to house the Bluestones. The unprecedented use of a stone load-bearing wall, and pillars in the centre, is a technological approach reminiscent of Mediterranean Europe, suggesting imported craftsmen. But this is only the very pointy end of a much larger wedge.
http://structuralarchaeology.blogspot.com/2012/03/twelve-reasons-why-stonehenge-was.html
and
http://structuralarchaeology.blogspot.com/2013/10/understanding-more-about-stonehenge-as.html

JonikW
04-26-2019, 10:10 AM
Has anyone of Cornish or Breton heritage got updated Ancestry, Living DNA or completely new results they could share? Anything interesting to tell?

Trelvern
04-26-2019, 11:38 AM
Has anyone of Cornish or Breton heritage got updated Ancestry, Living DNA or completely new results they could share? Anything interesting to tell?

i ordered 28 march 2019 and got "quality review" (Living DNA :76.9 Isles and 15.7 France and neighbouring though full breton on paper trail)
no update at the moment
i sent a message yesterday
no answer yet

timberwolf
04-26-2019, 08:26 PM
With LDNA I am pretty sure they have assigned some of my Cornish to Iberia.

spruithean
06-20-2019, 01:30 PM
Not necessarily on topic with the previous posts, however through FTDNA I was contacted by a cousin who turns out to share ancestors with me from Cornwall, they still live in the UK and our families parted ways when my branch migrated to Canada. A match like this is a step in the right direction for my paternal grandmother's mother's family, it's not been super straight-forward to trace them.

JonikW
06-24-2019, 09:17 PM
Any people of Cornish or Breton descent got the new Ancestry update? My Welsh update is excellent and I'd be interested to see how well the new Genetic Communities reflect your known ancestry.

spruithean
09-22-2019, 11:00 PM
I can't really comment on the AncestryDNA update for those of Cornish or Breton descent, however thanks to autosomal DNA I'm actually making progress on my Cornish part of the tree, looks like they came from the Lizard Peninsula. Thankfully this part of my tree is relatively recent and not as diluted as other parts of my tree.

Saetro
09-25-2019, 11:29 PM
I can't really comment on the AncestryDNA update for those of Cornish or Breton descent, however thanks to autosomal DNA I'm actually making progress on my Cornish part of the tree, looks like they came from the Lizard Peninsula. Thankfully this part of my tree is relatively recent and not as diluted as other parts of my tree.

I have 3 lines from Penwith and Kerrier - mainly Redruth, Breage to Perranuthnoe, and Meneage - with a smattering of St Just.
AncestryDNA is now showing me as part of a Kerrier subgroup (which overlaps into Perranuthnoe and also Redruth).
That works really well for me.
Many people are not confident enough to post a tree or too concerned about privacy to make one viewable.
Previously there has been no point in contacting them if I had insufficient evidence to bother doing so.
At least if they are shown as also being in the Kerrier group, I can mention that commonality now.
(I realise that some have unknown ancestry, but many more do know and expect their involvement to be purely extractive.
They risk missing out on so much as well as accepting all of those false leads in bad trees.)

The confusing thing is that in the broader area maps, they include the ancestors that connect us named as NOT Cornish at all, but Irish-Scottish-Welsh, the map of which specifically EXCLUDES Wales as well as Cornwall!

rms2
09-28-2019, 09:18 PM
One of my 7th great grandfathers was a Breton, Dr. Paul Micou.

Not sure if any of his autosomal dna is still showing up in me, although I seem to recall at least one match at Ancestry who shares him with me as mrca.

He is buried about 20 or 30 minutes from where I currently live. I've been there and photographed the spot.

33456 33457

spruithean
09-30-2019, 06:07 PM
I have 3 lines from Penwith and Kerrier - mainly Redruth, Breage to Perranuthnoe, and Meneage - with a smattering of St Just.
AncestryDNA is now showing me as part of a Kerrier subgroup (which overlaps into Perranuthnoe and also Redruth).
That works really well for me.
Many people are not confident enough to post a tree or too concerned about privacy to make one viewable.
Previously there has been no point in contacting them if I had insufficient evidence to bother doing so.
At least if they are shown as also being in the Kerrier group, I can mention that commonality now.
(I realise that some have unknown ancestry, but many more do know and expect their involvement to be purely extractive.
They risk missing out on so much as well as accepting all of those false leads in bad trees.)

The confusing thing is that in the broader area maps, they include the ancestors that connect us named as NOT Cornish at all, but Irish-Scottish-Welsh, the map of which specifically EXCLUDES Wales as well as Cornwall!

My Cornish ancestors seem to be from Mawgan-in-Meneage, Porthleven, Helston, Landewednack and those sorts of areas, they eventually moved to Devon, and eventually toward London and finally Canada. So far one of the Cornish lineages seems to extend back to the 1650s, which is probably the farthest I've gotten on anything from my paternal side of the tree. I don't know what my AncestryDNA results would look like, but if the Gedmatch calculators are any hint (same with my matches) I would probably pick up some Cornish on the maps. Some of the first names of these ancestors are certainly unique!


One of my 7th great grandfathers was a Breton, Dr. Paul Micou.

Not sure if any of his autosomal dna is still showing up in me, although I seem to recall at least one match at Ancestry who shares him with me as mrca.

He is buried about 20 or 30 minutes from where I currently live. I've been there and photographed the spot.

33456 33457

Nice pictures! Was he a medical doctor in the US?

rms2
10-04-2019, 11:40 PM
. . .
Nice pictures! Was he a medical doctor in the US?

Yes and no. Yes, he was a medical doctor in Virginia, but it was a British colony for the entirety of his life. He owned a large estate along the Rappahannock River in Essex County.

Youenn
10-08-2019, 09:50 PM
One of my 7th great grandfathers was a Breton, Dr. Paul Micou.

Not sure if any of his autosomal dna is still showing up in me, although I seem to recall at least one match at Ancestry who shares him with me as mrca.

He is buried about 20 or 30 minutes from where I currently live. I've been there and photographed the spot.

33456 33457

Are you sure he was 100% Breton?
There is no "Micou" bornt between 1891 and 1915 in Nantes region. Only 3 people in Finistère département but I doubt they are completely native. Micou looks like a typical Vendéen or Poitevin surname according to Geopatronyme - Micou (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Micou&submit=Valider&client=cdip)

sktibo
10-08-2019, 09:55 PM
Are you sure he was 100% Breton?
There is no "Micou" bornt between 1891 and 1915 in Nantes region. Only 3 people in Finistère département but I doubt they are completely native. Micou looks like a typical Vendéen or Poitevin surname according to Geopatronyme - Micou (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Micou&submit=Valider&client=cdip)

Thank you for the link to that site for French surnames

Saetro
10-09-2019, 12:06 AM
My Cornish ancestors seem to be from Mawgan-in-Meneage, Porthleven, Helston, Landewednack and those sorts of areas, they eventually moved to Devon, and eventually toward London and finally Canada. So far one of the Cornish lineages seems to extend back to the 1650s, which is probably the farthest I've gotten on anything from my paternal side of the tree. I don't know what my AncestryDNA results would look like, but if the Gedmatch calculators are any hint (same with my matches) I would probably pick up some Cornish on the maps. Some of the first names of these ancestors are certainly unique!


If you are back to the 1650s maybe you can stretch things and connect with the pedigrees in the Visitations of Cornwall?
https://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/ has a version with some lines updated from around 1620 to later.
Some pedigrees are doubtful. Don't know whether this was during the audits by the College of Arms, or due to the additions by Vivian beyond 1620 later.
My lines that appear can be verified to some degree from appearing in more than one place in that work, and also from some other sources.
Some apparent DNA verification for me for one or two of those lines also. (But not certain.)

Saetro
10-09-2019, 12:20 AM
My Cornish ancestors seem to be from Mawgan-in-Meneage, Porthleven, Helston, Landewednack and those sorts of areas, they eventually moved to Devon, and eventually toward London and finally Canada. .... Some of the first names of these ancestors are certainly unique!


I have Enstance, which some have recorded as a mis-transcription of Eustace, but it is actually a version of Anastasia. That took a few years to sort out.
I also have Loveday, which is not unique to Cornwall, but occurs also in parts of England.
A loveday was a day one had to work for the man - the landlord or lord of the manor - for nothing, either as payment in part for farming land, or just out of duty. Not quite as romantic as it first looks.
But it does hammer the point that the father was not around at the birth, or was if it occurred in the early hours of the morning, but had to work that day anyway.
There are some rare biblical names too, but they are not particularly regional.

rms2
10-12-2019, 01:00 AM
Are you sure he was 100% Breton?
There is no "Micou" bornt between 1891 and 1915 in Nantes region. Only 3 people in Finistère département but I doubt they are completely native. Micou looks like a typical Vendéen or Poitevin surname according to Geopatronyme - Micou (http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Micou&submit=Valider&client=cdip)

All I really know is that he was from Nantes and his wife was Margaret LeRoy.

fabrice E
10-13-2019, 07:30 AM
All I really know is that he was from Nantes and his wife was Margaret LeRoy.

Do you want us (french from britanny) to search for him ?

Helgenes50
10-13-2019, 08:08 AM
All I really know is that he was from Nantes and his wife was Margaret LeRoy.

Here is what i found on Geneanet, he was not breton, but from Charente-Maritime via his paternal line.
His mother's surname is not really common

M Paul Micou Family Tree(Paul Micou III) (Paul Huguenot Immigrant)


Born 29 June 1659 - Nantes, Loire-Atlantique, Pays de la Loire, France
Baptized 10 July 1659 - French Reformed Church, Cozes, Charente-Maritime, France
Deceased 23 May 1736 - Essex, Colony of Virginia, British Colonial America, aged 76 years old
Buried in May 1736 - Port Micou, Essex County, Colony of Virginia, British Colonial America
Justice of the Peace, educated to the Bar, physician


https://gw.geneanet.org/pinkpops222?n=micou&oc=1&p=paul

EDIT: But I am sure you have all this information for a long time.

Cunobelinus_T
01-29-2020, 01:43 AM
If you are back to the 1650s maybe you can stretch things and connect with the pedigrees in the Visitations of Cornwall?
https://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/ has a version with some lines updated from around 1620 to later.
Some pedigrees are doubtful. Don't know whether this was during the audits by the College of Arms, or due to the additions by Vivian beyond 1620 later.
My lines that appear can be verified to some degree from appearing in more than one place in that work, and also from some other sources.
Some apparent DNA verification for me for one or two of those lines also. (But not certain.)

Saetro's suggestion from October is a good one - the Visitations of Cornwall can be very helpful if you can securely get a link to a branch that's detailed in there. He's correct that some pedigrees are dodgy, so if Spruithean jumps into them there's a lot of independent verification he'll need to do. That said, they can provide us with some excellent starting points. I have one branch (most recently Bonython, but branching back via Trevanion and others) for which the Visitations have been excellent resources. The Visitations are no help whatsoever for my other Cornish branches, on the other hand, as they weren't the right 'sort' to end up in these pedigrees! Also, don't forget to use the Visitations of Devon as well: as a lot of the gentry/aristocratic families of Cornwall intermarried with equivalent families in Devon, the two sets of Visitation documents are good to compare and contrast to see whether the pedigrees overlap accurately or not.

Cornwall was subject to three Heraldic Visitations by the College of Arms - 1530, 1573 and 1620. These are easily accessible in two forms: Vivian's edited (and much added-to) 1887 edition (which is the one Saetro has linked to here), and also the 1620 edition which was edited by Vivian and Drake and published in 1874 (https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun091874/page/n12/mode/2up).

The difference between the two is that Vivian added a lot of his own research to the 1887 publication, bringing some pedigrees up to the Victorian period and projecting them back into the Middle Ages. Information drawn directly from the 1620 Visitation is presented in italics, whilst Vivian's own research is presented in plain text. Given the limitations of the records at his disposal, Vivian's projections forward and backward contain numerous errors and best guesses. I don't want to knock Vivian too much though: the quantity of research is prodigious and the fact he gets so much right is impressive given the archival limitations he would have been dealing with. The 1874 publication, on the other hand, is effectively a much more sparse transcript of the 1620 College of Arms documents with some footnotes. As the College of Arms documents are the product of direct consultation with the families in question back in 1620, the 1874 publication is a super valuable source for answering questions about the early 17th Century. It's essential to remember that the families in question might not always have been 100% accurate or honest themselves, but as evidence of what the families told the heralds, the 1620 records presented in the 1874 publication is vital (it's helped me clarify two contentious issues dating to the 1620s/1620s so far). One day I'd love to see the original manuscripts...

Long story short, the reasons for errors in these documents are:

- 1874 Edition: inaccurate information provided to the original Heralds (family propaganda, faulty or competing family records, faulty memories); potentially transcription errors by Vivian and Drake (not sure if anyone's studied the extent of such errors). Sometimes different branches of the same family presented pedigrees with different people and relationships.

- 1887 Edition: all of the above, plus gaps in Vivian's sources and incorrect conclusions made by Vivian. The main errors made by Vivian tend to occur when he's projecting the 1620 pedigrees forwards or backwards and trying to link up branches found in the 1620 survey with more recent family branches or older branches found in other archival sources. The gaps in his records meant that he sometimes makes 'best guesses' that turn out to be the wrong conclusions.

Cunobelinus_T
01-29-2020, 01:48 AM
Any people of Cornish or Breton descent got the new Ancestry update? My Welsh update is excellent and I'd be interested to see how well the new Genetic Communities reflect your known ancestry.

I'm not on AncestryDNA (yet) but my uncle gets two pretty detailed Cornish genetic communities in AncestryDNA. Based on paper-trails, these capture approximately 2/3 of our Cornish branches pretty accurately. Probably should've got my Nanna to test with Ancestry at the same time as LivingDNA to try and boost the resolution on her side. Ah well, we'll wait for the next time Ancestry's discounted tests are on offer ;)

Cunobelinus_T
01-29-2020, 01:51 AM
I can't really comment on the AncestryDNA update for those of Cornish or Breton descent, however thanks to autosomal DNA I'm actually making progress on my Cornish part of the tree, looks like they came from the Lizard Peninsula. Thankfully this part of my tree is relatively recent and not as diluted as other parts of my tree.

Based on my extensive and highly scientific research, the best bacon sandwiches in the world can be found in Lizard...

Urheimat
01-29-2020, 02:19 AM
Any people of Cornish or Breton descent got the new Ancestry update? My Welsh update is excellent and I'd be interested to see how well the new Genetic Communities reflect your known ancestry.

Ancestry gave me 51% Scottish and Irish and 49% English,Wales, and Northwestern Europe (Primarily located in England).

spruithean
01-29-2020, 02:30 AM
Based on my extensive and highly scientific research, the best bacon sandwiches in the world can be found in Lizard...

Well then. I know where I have to go!

Cunobelinus_T
01-29-2020, 02:36 AM
Well then. I know where I have to go!

Definitely! The ice cream's not bad either!

(On a serious note, some of my lot are from down Lizard way as well, which we know from paper-trail and can broadly confirm from my uncle's AncestryDNA, which picks up Kerrier and West Cornwall & Scilly... a nice, very specific convergence between the two strands of evidence!)