Haplogroup W5

[Pylsteen]

Let's give haplogroup W5 its own thread and discuss new information and discoveries regarding this relatively uncommon haplogroup.

mt-DNA haplogroup W5 is a branch of haplogroup W, that arose around ca. 12.000 BC, probably in the steppes near the Aral Sea. It probably remained on the steppe until some women having this haplogroup spread with the Corded Ware Culture; indeed, the CWC seems to have introduced this haplogroup, already split into W5a and W5b on the North European plain. It could have been spread later by the Germanic tribes too. It is generally found in the Low Countries, Germany, Denmark, Great Britain, Ireland, Poland. Its frequency is probably on the lower end of 1-5%

The most complete site for haplogroup W, and W5: http://www.thecid.com/

The oldest samples of W5 found up to date (as by Jean Manco (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml)):

- W5: Starcevo farmer, Hungary (I1880), (Y-DNA G2a), 5800-5500 BC (Lipton 2017). This could mean that some W5 was already present in the neolithic European farmers, or that this sample has an Eastern European maternal line.

- W5: Globular Amphora, Poland (I2405), (Y-DNA I2a2), 3335-3020 BC (Mathieson 2017).

- W5a: Bell Beaker, Kromsdorf, Germany, 2600-2500 BC (Lee 2012).

[Pylsteen]

I haven't updated this thread in years, wow! In any case, besides an old farmer, GAC, CWC and Bell Beaker W5, there is now also a Funnelbeaker sample.

A repeat of the oldest samples:

~5800-5500 BC: W5 (Starcevo farmer, Hungary, id: I1880, Y-DNA G2a), (Lipton 2017)
~3335-3020 BC: W5 (Kierzkowo, Globular Amphora, Poland, id: I2405, Y-DNA I2a2) (Mathieson 2017)
~2900-2200 BC: W5a (CWC, Brandysek, Czech Rep., id: I7280, Y-DNA R1a1a) (Olalde et al. 2018).
~2800-2300 BC: W5b (CWC, Malzyce, Poland, id: poz280) (Juras et al. 2018).
~2700 BC (dating to be checked): W5 (Funnelbeaker, Makotrasy, Czech Rep., id: I7189) (Papac et al. 2021) (new!)
~2600-2500 BC: W5a (Bell Beaker, Kromsdorf, Germany) (Lee 2012).
~2500-2000 BC: W5 (Bell Beaker, Irlbach, Bavaria, id: I5834) (Olalde et al. 2018).
~2454-2236 BC: W5b (CWC Malzyce, Poland, id: poz279) (Juras et al. 2018).

These samples together strongly suggest to me nowadays that the route of W5 was from farmers travelling up the Danube, and then entered Funnelbeaker, GAC and accordingly CWC, being nowadays mostly present in Germany and surroundings. Although it can be due to sampling bias, the ancient findings seem concentrated in southern Germany, southern Poland, Bohemia and Hungary. The older theory of a steppe origin (as Wade had it years ago) appears unlikely to me now!

[Vanessa Arias]

I'm of this group and would like to find others! So far you are the only person I have seen online with W5!








I haven't updated this thread in years, wow! In any case, besides an old farmer, GAC, CWC and Bell Beaker W5, there is now also a Funnelbeaker sample.

A repeat of the oldest samples:

~5800-5500 BC: W5 (Starcevo farmer, Hungary, id: I1880, Y-DNA G2a), (Lipton 2017)
~3335-3020 BC: W5 (Kierzkowo, Globular Amphora, Poland, id: I2405, Y-DNA I2a2) (Mathieson 2017)
~2900-2200 BC: W5a (CWC, Brandysek, Czech Rep., id: I7280, Y-DNA R1a1a) (Olalde et al. 2018).
~2800-2300 BC: W5b (CWC, Malzyce, Poland, id: poz280) (Juras et al. 2018).
~2700 BC (dating to be checked): W5 (Funnelbeaker, Makotrasy, Czech Rep., id: I7189) (Papac et al. 2021) (new!)
~2600-2500 BC: W5a (Bell Beaker, Kromsdorf, Germany) (Lee 2012).
~2500-2000 BC: W5 (Bell Beaker, Irlbach, Bavaria, id: I5834) (Olalde et al. 2018).
~2454-2236 BC: W5b (CWC Malzyce, Poland, id: poz279) (Juras et al. 2018).

These samples together strongly suggest to me nowadays that the route of W5 was from farmers travelling up the Danube, and then entered Funnelbeaker, GAC and accordingly CWC, being nowadays mostly present in Germany and surroundings. Although it can be due to sampling bias, the ancient findings seem concentrated in southern Germany, southern Poland, Bohemia and Hungary. The older theory of a steppe origin (as Wade had it years ago) appears unlikely to me now!

[Pylsteen]

I looked in the "All ancient DNA" spreadsheet gathered by C.Quiles, he mentions more W5's that I hadn't noticed before:

~3900 BC: two W5b (Michelsberg culture, France, id: Berg02-2, Berg02-5) (Brunel et al. 2020).
~3500 BC: W5 (Funnelbeaker, Swiecica, Poland, id: poz737) (Juras et al. 2018)
~2760 BC: W5b (Ireland LN, Carrowkeel, Ireland, id. CAK530) (Cassidy et al. 2021).
~2750 BC: W5 (Anatolia EBA, Ovaören, Turkey, id. MA2212, Y-DNA J2a) (Damgaard et al. 2018).
~2550 BC: W5a (CWC, Stadice, Czech Rep., id: STD001, Y-DNA R1a-M417) (Papac et al. 2021).
~2330 BC: W5a (Germany LN, Leubingen, Germany, id: LEU019, Y-DNA H2) (Rohrlach et al. 2021).
~1890 BC: W5b (Ireland Neolithic, Poulnabrone, Ireland, id: PN01) (Cassidy 2017).
~500 BC: W5a (Scythian, Zayukovo, Russia, id: Koban 11, Y-DNA: R1b-M269) (Boulygina 2020).
~410 BC: W5 (Phoenician, Sardinia, id: MS10581) (Matisoo 2018).
~350 BC: W5b (La Tène, Le Cailar, France, id: CLR 13) (Brunel 2020).
~950 AD: W5b (Magyar, Hungary. id: Öth124.464B ) (Czösz 2016).
~950 AD: W5a (Magyar, Hungary, id: SHper106) (Maár 2021).
~1225 AD: W5a1a1 (England medieval, St. Mary Spital, id: LM51mt) (Klunk 2019).
~1310 AD: W5 (Germany medieval, Lübeck, id: HGH-1508) (Haller 2021).
~1400 AD: W5a1 (Denmark medieval, id: G117) (Krause 2018).

It seems that especially W5b had already spread early during the Neolithic westward into the British Isles.

[Stefanie]

I’m W5a2b per livingdna. My ancestor goes back to Germany. Her descendants married into the French community in Louisiana and 300 odd years later here I am. :) Thank you for the information.

[Pylsteen]

Very interesting. According to the latest phylogeny, I belong to W5a2a. My line is Dutch from the 17th century onwards, alhough I do have a full German match, likely we share a medieval maternal ancestor. W5a2 seems largely German/English.