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lilac9
06-26-2017, 05:19 PM
I just received my results today and it says I am 81% British and Irish which is so wrong! I am Puerto Rican of mostly Spanish ancestry. I am 60% Iberian on 23andme. I just wrote back to them and I'm awaiting a reply. The only thing they got right was my mtDNA which is U5b2b on 23andme and U5b2b3a on LivingDNA.

Celt_??
06-26-2017, 05:20 PM
What is your Y-DNA haplogroup according to Living DNA?

lilac9
06-26-2017, 05:22 PM
What is your Y-DNA haplogroup according to Living DNA?

I am female so no Y-DNA.

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 06:01 PM
I just received my results today and it says I am 81% British and Irish which is so wrong! I am Puerto Rican of mostly Spanish ancestry. I am 60% Iberian on 23andme. I just wrote back to them and I'm awaiting a reply. The only thing they got right was my mtDNA which is U5b2b on 23andme and U5b2b3a on LivingDNA.

That doesn't mean that it's a scam. The same accusation has been thrown about on DNA Testing Choice except the review was clearly made by the same person three times. Your results clearly don't seem to be accurate or reliable but that doesn't make the company a scam. Your sample has been tested and these are the results based on their algorithm. They didn't grab the results from thin air. Other people have gotten incredibly accurate results. My results aren't accurate either (not nearly as bad as yours) but I know that this is due to sampling that they're trying to improve on. It's a new business that is still progressing and I don't think that it's fair to make accusations like that. I can completely understand your disappointment after having spent so much money but as most people here know it does have a British Isles focus due it giving a breakdown within Britain with people from Britain receiving the most accurate results. I have no problem with a complaint about your results (as I and others have done) but calling it a scam isn't fair.

06-26-2017, 06:10 PM
I just received my results today and it says I am 81% British and Irish which is so wrong! I am Puerto Rican of mostly Spanish ancestry. I am 60% Iberian on 23andme. I just wrote back to them and I'm awaiting a reply. The only thing they got right was my mtDNA which is U5b2b on 23andme and U5b2b3a on LivingDNA.

Can you download your raw data, upload to gedmatch genesis, and share your kit number with us?

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 06:15 PM
Can you download your raw data, upload to gedmatch genesis, and share your kit number with us?

That would be interesting to see. The Gedmatch genesis algorithm should be more accurate for that area of origin.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 06:16 PM
But their results are clearly wrong. What do you expect me to say? I know what my composition is based on my results from other companies. All the other companies have me around 75-83% European. I am so happy it worked for you but my results are very off and I paid a lot of money for those results.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 06:18 PM
Can you download your raw data, upload to gedmatch genesis, and share your kit number with us?

Thank you for your reply. I did tried to download my raw DNA results to Gedmatch Genesis but it says Error something wrong with that file.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 06:24 PM
My Iberian ancestry at 23andme is 60% as opposed to 3.2% Iberian on LivingDNA. They didn't even get my Euro component right!
This result is even worse than the free downloads I have from myHeritage, Geneplaza, DNAland, etc.

I saw plenty of good results here that's why I decided to test. I even saw some Iberians and they all got mostly Iberian. So what is going on with my results?

Look at the 23andme forums an African-American man just got back 100% European and he says he is at least 63% African. I am not making a claim that is unfounded. Link so you can see I am not making it up
https://www.23andmeforums.com/discussion/7444/livingdna-100-european-uhhh-no#latest


If they can fix the problem and furnish me with credible results I will change the title here but until they do they are just horrible IMO.

ollie444
06-26-2017, 06:28 PM
Test seems to have hit this chap the other way around: https://thegenealogycorner.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/my-living-dna-experience/ Apparently he's a quarter British - only given 1.1%!

EDIT: Plus he's given mostly French for his Spanish. I think they must have a gross lack of Iberian samples, much like the Irish reference set.

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 06:40 PM
I am so happy it worked for you but my results are very off and I paid a lot of money for those results.

It didn't work for me by the way. Living DNA is not a company that I'd recommend to a first time tester to be honest. It could cause someone to have an identity crisis like in your case if you didn't know better.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 06:44 PM
Yes imagine if I was an adoptee! How do they think they can pull the wool over people's eyes? They most know their testees are serial company testers! Wow this is so disappointing. Here I thought I would get a better breakdown of my 9% Native and 6-8% African! And now I hear I am 81% British and Irish!

lilac9
06-26-2017, 06:57 PM
I tried to download their raw data file and I don't understand why it won't open it. It goes to LiveWindows Mail 2011? Very weird.

ollie444
06-26-2017, 07:06 PM
I tried to download their raw data file and I don't understand why it won't open it. It goes to LiveWindows Mail 2011? Very weird.

It's a vcf file. Doesn't open on my computer either. It did upload nicely to gedmatch genesis (https://genesis.gedmatch.com) for me though.

evon
06-26-2017, 07:06 PM
They are clearly anglo-centric in their interpretation of the data due to a limited number of reference samples, but they have always said their focus is UK.

Although if I were you I would not be too sad at this moment, it is after all an investment and as they add more samples and improve their tools, you can expect to see a drastic change in the way your data is interpreted...

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 07:11 PM
They are clearly anglo-centric in their interpretation of the data due to a limited number of reference samples, but they have always said their focus is UK.

Although if I were you I would not be too sad at this moment, it is after all an investment and as they add more samples and improve their tools, you can expect to see a drastic change in the way your data is interpreted...

I agree with this. If the order is Ireland, Germany, France, then it's possible that Spain could come after that. I know a Scottish project has to fit in at some stage too. Hopefully the results should improve over time.

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 07:12 PM
I tried to download their raw data file and I don't understand why it won't open it. It goes to LiveWindows Mail 2011? Very weird.

I didn't even try to open the file. You can just upload that complete file to genesis.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:12 PM
They are clearly anglo-centric in their interpretation of the data due to a limited number of reference samples, but they have always said their focus is UK.

Although if I were you I would not be too sad at this moment, it is after all an investment and as they add more samples and improve their tools, you can expect to see a drastic change in the way your data is interpreted...

No sir you are wrong. I did my homework before I purchased. It clearly states that their reference samples include Native American and African samples. Plus they do have an Iberian sample too. If it was just British Isles I wouldn't have bought it.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:15 PM
It's a vcf file. Doesn't open on my computer either. It did upload nicely to gedmatch genesis (https://genesis.gedmatch.com) for me though.

I tried to upload it to Gedmatch Genesis but it gave me an error reply. I just noticed I uploaded it in the wrong area. There is a separate area for VCF files.

I tried and this is what it says
Dmatch Genesis DNA VCF file upload


Donor Name: M.

Your Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/58.0.3029.110 Safari/537.36
Upload Filename: living-dna-LD0113260A-autosomal (1).vcf

Upload File Size: 306 Bytes

Your DNA data file has been successfully received at the server. Processing milestones are listed below.
You should see the word 'Finished' at the bottom of the page when processing is complete. If you leave this page before it is finished, your data may be lost.
Processing normally takes less than a minute.
If you see the word 'ERROR', then your file did not complete processing, and you will need to try your upload again.


ERROR: File appears to be too small.
Make sure you are uploading the correct file.
Please check it and try again.

ollie444
06-26-2017, 07:16 PM
No sir you are wrong. I did my homework before I purchased. It clearly states that their reference samples include Native American and African samples. Plus they do have an Iberian sample too. If it was just British Isles I wouldn't have bought it.

He didn't say they had no samples from the regions at all, just limited numbers.

Would your Spanish ancestry happen to be from Northern Spain? See results at bottom of this link: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10570-Living-DNA-Some-quot-Ancestry-Through-History-quot-feature-quot-of-a-Southner-Spaniard Interesting how they line up well with other companies results. Living DNA must have poor samples from northern Spain.

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 07:17 PM
No sir you are wrong. I did my homework before I purchased. It clearly states that their reference samples include Native American and African samples. Plus they do have an Iberian sample too. If it was just British Isles I wouldn't have bought it.

It says that they cover those regions but British Isles is the focus. They also cover Ireland but they only have 7 samples for the region. I honestly wouldn't have bought the test if it wasn't for the Irish research project because I'm hoping that I can help improve their database since I did qualify. There was also the fact that the first 10 for each sub-region would get a free test. I didn't get that but by that stage I couldn't turn back. I was too curious. At the moment I don't see it as an attractive test to those outside the British Isles (besides Germany since there's a project there).

Outside the British Isles there are other tests that provide more accurate and reliable results.

ollie444
06-26-2017, 07:24 PM
I tried to upload it to Gedmatch Genesis but it gave me an error reply. I just noticed I uploaded it in the wrong area. There is a separate area for VCF files.

I tried and this is what it says
Dmatch Genesis DNA VCF file upload


Donor Name: M.

Your Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/58.0.3029.110 Safari/537.36
Upload Filename: living-dna-LD0113260A-autosomal (1).vcf

Upload File Size: 306 Bytes

Your DNA data file has been successfully received at the server. Processing milestones are listed below.
You should see the word 'Finished' at the bottom of the page when processing is complete. If you leave this page before it is finished, your data may be lost.
Processing normally takes less than a minute.
If you see the word 'ERROR', then your file did not complete processing, and you will need to try your upload again.


ERROR: File appears to be too small.
Make sure you are uploading the correct file.
Please check it and try again.

Sods law this is happening to you along with your dodgy results. My file appears to be much bigger. This is how it appears on my pc:

17218

Click to enlarge. I think I renamed the file too.

MacUalraig
06-26-2017, 07:24 PM
Upload File Size: 306 Bytes



Yes that sounds a wee bit on the small side... ;-)

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:27 PM
He didn't say they had no samples from the regions at all, just limited numbers.

Would your Spanish ancestry happen to be from Northern Spain? See results at bottom of this link: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10570-Living-DNA-Some-quot-Ancestry-Through-History-quot-feature-quot-of-a-Southner-Spaniard Interesting how they line up well with other companies results. Living DNA must have poor samples from northern Spain.

My Spanish DNA is from all over Spain. My paternal great-grandfather was born in Galicia in 1866. He is my most recent Spanish ancestor. There is also a 2nd great-grandfather on my paternal line from Old Castile who immigrated to Puerto Rico in 1860. All the rest have been in Puerto Rico since the 1500's or 1600's. I know definitely that one of my mother's ancestors was born in Tenerife, Canary Islands in the 1600's and one in Cadiz in the 1700's. Most appear in San German which is the oldest town in Puerto Rico and most were born there in the 1700's. That is on my Mom's side.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:29 PM
Yes that sounds a wee bit on the small side... ;-)

Yes I thought so too and I am no expert on files!

ollie444
06-26-2017, 07:31 PM
My Spanish DNA is from all over Spain. My paternal great-grandfather was born in Galicia in 1866. He is my most recent Spanish ancestor. There is also a 2nd great-grandfather on my paternal line from Old Castile who immigrated to Puerto Rico in 1860. All the rest have been in Puerto Rico since the 1500's or 1600's. I know definitely that one of my mother's ancestors was born in Tenerife, Canary Islands in the 1600's and one in Cadiz in the 1700's. Most appear in San German which is the oldest town in Puerto Rico and most were born there in the 1700's. That is on my Mom's side.

I guess the person in the results must just match very closely with the reference population.

Does anyone know what database Living DNA are using for their non-UK populations?

Amerijoe
06-26-2017, 07:34 PM
I tried to download their raw data file and I don't understand why it won't open it. It goes to LiveWindows Mail 2011? Very weird.

I know the frustration of less than accurate results. With an unknown paternal line I am forced to cross reference through other's proven ancestry. I would download the Livingdna au file to Dropbox. Now you can send your raw file anywhere you see fit. Upload the Dropbox file to Gedmatch genesis. If this is your first upload and you have other tested results, upload those raw files to Gedmatch genesis also. You will be ascribed separate ids for each.. Once everything is in place and you are able to compare, go to heading DNA Applications and click on Validity Measurement Tool, similar to one to one DNA comparison. Now, in Kit#1 put your Livingdna id. In Kit #2 add the id for one of your other tested results, 23andMe etc. This will tell you how similar the two kits match. If there is a match discrepancy it will show immediately. If there is no problem with the file, you should be close to a 100% match.

If you have any problems with the procedure, give a shoutout, there plenty of members who will be glad to help. Good luck. :) Joe

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:37 PM
I know the frustration of less than accurate results. With an unknown paternal line I am forced to cross reference through other's proven ancestry. I would download the Livingdna au file to Dropbox. Now you can send your raw file anywhere you see fit. Upload the Dropbox file to Gedmatch genesis. If this is your first upload and you have other tested results, upload those raw files to Gedmatch genesis also. You will be ascribed separate ids for each.. Once everything is in place and you are able to compare, go to heading DNA Applications and click on Validity Measurement Tool, similar to one to one DNA comparison. Now, in Kit#1 put your Livingdna id. In Kit #2 add the id for one of your other tested results, 23andMe etc. This will tell you how similar the two kits match. If there is a match discrepancy it will show immediately. If there is no problem with the file, you should be close to a 100% match.

If you have any problems with the procedure, give a shoutout, there plenty of members who will be glad to help. Good luck. :) Joe

But if the file is so small will it even work? It says its only 306 bytes! Thank you anyway. Yes I know there are brilliant minds here! :)

Cornella
06-26-2017, 07:40 PM
Yes imagine if I was an adoptee! How do they think they can pull the wool over people's eyes? They most know their testees are serial company testers! Wow this is so disappointing. Here I thought I would get a better breakdown of my 9% Native and 6-8% African! And now I hear I am 81% British and Irish!

What percentage of non-European components did LivingDNA give you?

ollie444
06-26-2017, 07:40 PM
But if the file is so small will it even work? It says its only 306 bytes! Thank you anyway. Yes I know there are brilliant minds here! :)

Maybe try downloading it again. If that doesn't work, I'd recommend embarking on the slow and painful process of contacting Living DNA.

EDIT: They're actually usually pretty quick through facebook.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:43 PM
What percentage of non-European components did LivingDNA give you?
I am 100% European on their test. No non-Euro was given. Not even North African which sometimes I can score up to 8% on some calculators.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:45 PM
Maybe try downloading it again. If that doesn't work, I'd recommend embarking on the slow and painful process of contacting Living DNA.

EDIT: They're actually usually pretty quick through facebook.

I already left a message there. No answer as of yet.

Pylsteen
06-26-2017, 07:49 PM
Mmm. This sounds like your results are not complete; maybe it is connected to the size of your file. Since your mt-dna seems correct, they probably did not swap samples with someone else.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 07:52 PM
Mmm. This sounds like your results are not complete; maybe it is connected to the size of your file. Since your mt-dna seems correct, they probably did not swap samples with someone else.

It could be! That's the only thing they got right my mtDNA!

06-26-2017, 08:20 PM
I tried to upload it to Gedmatch Genesis but it gave me an error reply. I just noticed I uploaded it in the wrong area. There is a separate area for VCF files.

I tried and this is what it says
Dmatch Genesis DNA VCF file upload


Donor Name: M.

Your Browser: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/58.0.3029.110 Safari/537.36
Upload Filename: living-dna-LD0113260A-autosomal (1).vcf

Upload File Size: 306 Bytes

Your DNA data file has been successfully received at the server. Processing milestones are listed below.
You should see the word 'Finished' at the bottom of the page when processing is complete. If you leave this page before it is finished, your data may be lost.
Processing normally takes less than a minute.
If you see the word 'ERROR', then your file did not complete processing, and you will need to try your upload again.


ERROR: File appears to be too small.
Make sure you are uploading the correct file.
Please check it and try again.

Just a thought did you download your complete autosum vcf ?

evon
06-26-2017, 08:46 PM
No sir you are wrong. I did my homework before I purchased. It clearly states that their reference samples include Native American and African samples. Plus they do have an Iberian sample too. If it was just British Isles I wouldn't have bought it.

I said limited, you do know that they have individual ongoing projects for both Germany and Ireland right? When these are finished they will have more data on these two countries and will be able to offer better results to people from outside of UK. It is likely that they will start similar projects for other parts of Europe too, so like I said, it is an investment..

evon
06-26-2017, 08:49 PM
It says that they cover those regions but British Isles is the focus. They also cover Ireland but they only have 7 samples for the region. I honestly wouldn't have bought the test if it wasn't for the Irish research project because I'm hoping that I can help improve their database since I did qualify. There was also the fact that the first 10 for each sub-region would get a free test. I didn't get that but by that stage I couldn't turn back. I was too curious. At the moment I don't see it as an attractive test to those outside the British Isles (besides Germany since there's a project there).

Outside the British Isles there are other tests that provide more accurate and reliable results.

I got a Living test because I am hoping that when they eventually finish the German project, it will help me sort out some of my German ancestry...

lilac9
06-26-2017, 08:51 PM
Just a thought did you download your complete autosum vcf ?

Well it said it downloaded the whole autosomal file but it says the file is only 306 bytes! I hope they get back to me. I've already left two messages on Facebook and 2 on their help desk. The thing is my results weren't supposed to be ready till August 1. So I was super-excited when I received the e-mail that they were ready. Thank you so much for your suggestions.

lilac9
06-26-2017, 08:54 PM
I said limited, you do know that they have individual ongoing projects for both Germany and Ireland right? When these are finished they will have more data on these two countries and will be able to offer better results to people from outside of UK. It is likely that they will start similar projects for other parts of Europe too, so like I said, it is an investment..

Yes I am aware of the projects. I have been following everyone else's results on here. I have even seen a few Iberian results and they were spot-on too. The Iberians scored like Iberians. I don't spend my money on tests that I don't think will work.

They say they have 80 samples including African and Native-American so I said why not? Now if they just say Great Britain then no I will not spend the money!

FionnSneachta
06-26-2017, 09:07 PM
I got a Living test because I am hoping that when they eventually finish the German project, it will help me sort out some of my German ancestry...

A test like this is ideal for that. I already know where my Irish ancestry comes from but like in Britain (and Germany soon too hopefully), it can really help someone from America or anywhere that might only know that their ancestor came from a certain country but have no birth location within the country. It could lead them on the right track to search for records. That's what's so unique about this test that can really be of benefit to lots of people. They already have two research projects within the first year so this test has the potential to be quite incredible in a few years time for people with ancestry from all over Europe.

Even if there's no research project in an area at the moment, it's a good investment since they're always improving their product.

evon
06-26-2017, 09:45 PM
Yes I am aware of the projects. I have been following everyone else's results on here. I have even seen a few Iberian results and they were spot-on too. The Iberians scored like Iberians. I don't spend my money on tests that I don't think will work.

They say they have 80 samples including African and Native-American so I said why not? Now if they just say Great Britain then no I will not spend the money!

It could be that you have some "hidden" UK type ancestry within the Iberian component which inflates the UK score, but lets see what they say first...

sktibo
06-27-2017, 01:26 AM
are you going to post the terrible results living dna gave you.. maybe if we saw that we could make some sort of sense out of what happened. More importantly, it would show use which British regions are likely to be confused with Europe...

Jessie
06-27-2017, 01:31 AM
It would be interesting to see what your full results are.

lilac9
06-27-2017, 01:42 AM
I can't believe you guys want to see this hot mess but ok.
17222

Here's the rest of it on complete mode.
17223

I always thought I was the reincarnation of either Charlotte or Emily Bronte so maybe it is true. LOL! But not enough Yorkshire so nah no dice.

Let's give a hurrah for Southeast England since that's my major region.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2017, 02:55 AM
I have been saying for a long time that 23andme is the best test for Iberians and Latin Americans. It more accurately identifies our Iberian DNA compared to all of the other tests.

sktibo
06-27-2017, 03:09 AM
I can't believe you guys want to see this hot mess but ok.
17222

Here's the rest of it on complete mode.
17223

I always thought I was the reincarnation of either Charlotte or Emily Bronte so maybe it is true. LOL! But not enough Yorkshire so nah no dice.

Let's give a hurrah for Southeast England since that's my major region.

according to living DNA SE England can be more easily confused with France, implying it has the most southern pull out of all the British regions. At least your majority British region is the most logical of the British regions. As you may be aware, Living DNA has over 2000 British samples and a horribly low number for each region outside Britain. It's not a scam, it's just horribly done for non British people. if you have 2000 British samples vs 10 Iberian, it really doesn't matter how Spanish you are, you're going to come out as British.
But let's talk about SW Scotland and Northern Ireland also being a significant population in your test, I would not have seen that one coming! Very strange. Lincolnshire isn't that surprising, everyone gets Cornwall, so no shocks there, and everything in the 5% range and under is small enough so that it doesn't really matter, and it looks like the rest is a blend of almost every other British region. I'm glad you shared your results with us so that at least we can see that indeed SE England is the British region with the southernmost pull.

Please note; I'm not saying LDNA has 10 Iberian samples. this was just a low number i used as an example.


I have been saying for a long time that 23andme is the best test for Iberians and Latin Americans. It more accurately identifies our Iberian DNA compared to all of the other tests.
It's actually the only test that doesn't categorize my French as Iberian, giving me 0.2%, which is actually what I calculate to be my actual Spanish paper trail percentage.

Cinnamon orange
06-27-2017, 07:42 AM
Oh dear:(
I saw the thread on Living DNA for an African American tester yesterday on 23andme and posted about it on another Living DNA thread here on anthogenica today.
I am a quarter British isles ancestry and wanted to try Living DNA to see what they gave me location wise in the UK.
Nope will not try them now, thanks for posting your results. They give you all over the UK. This does not seem reliable.
(All over as in the OP's results and she is of Puerto Rican heritage, so the U.K. Breakdown does not seem reliable) I am only a quarter UK ancestry and suspect my non U.K. ancestry will be jumbled in the U.K. hence negating the point of my taking the test.)

06-27-2017, 08:03 AM
Well it said it downloaded the whole autosomal file but it says the file is only 306 bytes! I hope they get back to me. I've already left two messages on Facebook and 2 on their help desk. The thing is my results weren't supposed to be ready till August 1. So I was super-excited when I received the e-mail that they were ready. Thank you so much for your suggestions.

Lilac, there is definitely a problem with that download, it should be circa 26 Mbytes, eg mine was (26.737KB)
Just to add to mix, a lot of Spanish people don't even know this, but after the Roman Empire collapse, there was allot of refugees and rich people looking for a safer place to live, and to get away from Britain.
We all know about Brittany in NW France, but there was also the smaller enclave called "Britonia", in North Spain, near Galicia, which would have taken a significant amount of people from Britain and Brittany, so much so it had its on Bishop and see, in the early Catholic church, so we can assume for a few hundred yrs was Brythonic speaking. (Possibly the reason why some Spanish ethnic groups score some British & Irish), but admittedly should never be the amount you were quoted from LDNA.

Jessie
06-27-2017, 10:27 AM
I can't believe you guys want to see this hot mess but ok.
17222

Here's the rest of it on complete mode.
17223

I always thought I was the reincarnation of either Charlotte or Emily Bronte so maybe it is true. LOL! But not enough Yorkshire so nah no dice.

Let's give a hurrah for Southeast England since that's my major region.

Yes it is funny that you got 100% Europe and I didn't. :) Very odd results for someone of your background.

procoptodon
06-27-2017, 10:48 AM
I am 100% European on their test. No non-Euro was given. Not even North African which sometimes I can score up to 8% on some calculators.

lol that already shows how bad living DNA is then.

procoptodon
06-27-2017, 10:52 AM
I have been saying for a long time that 23andme is the best test for Iberians and Latin Americans. It more accurately identifies our Iberian DNA compared to all of the other tests.

It accurate to test it for the last 500 years only. Not beyond that. 500 years ago colonization was already started in the new world. But your DNA could be different ethnicity result maybe if they tested 1000 years ago probably. AncestryDNA and FTDNA gives me different results but admittingly FTDNA is definitely questionable. My father scored no Iberian on FTDNA. My mother scored alot though in proportion for what her Euro component was.

Dubhthach
06-27-2017, 10:53 AM
I'm so happy that I didn't bother with LivingDNA while they are still in obvious Beta mode, instead I got ancestry kits for both my parents.

ollie444
06-27-2017, 10:58 AM
if you have 2000 British samples vs 10 Iberian, it really doesn't matter how Spanish you are, you're going to come out as British.

I really do dispute this. If you match the Iberian samples, you match. It doesn't matter what kind of ratio of British to Iberian samples there is. The problem is lack of Iberian samples, not the lack of Iberian samples in comparison to British samples.

ollie444
06-27-2017, 11:00 AM
I'm so happy that I didn't bother with LivingDNA while they are still in obvious Beta mode, instead I got ancestry kits for both my parents.

Living DNA may be pretty handy for you once the Irish update is released..

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2017, 12:28 PM
It accurate to test it for the last 500 years only. Not beyond that.
There is no proof whatsoever that it is only accurate for the last 500 years. Not only is there no proof but autosomal DNA for large populations take more than 500 years to drift enough from other populations to be distinct. So Iberian DNA differentiated from neighboring populations a lot more than 500 years ago.


500 years ago colonization was already started in the new world.
That has nothing to do with Iberians born and raised in Iberia having more accurate results with 23andme than with the other calculators. The person that started the site at http://www.iberiandna.com/ is from Spain and has seen enough test results from the various companies of people born and raised in Iberia to stick with 23andme as the better calculator.


But your DNA could be different ethnicity result maybe if they tested 1000 years ago probably.
Like I said in the first portion of my response, Iberian DNA was already differentiated more than 500 years ago. If there was a difference between 1,000 and 500 years ago in Spain it would not be large.


AncestryDNA and FTDNA gives me different results but admittingly FTDNA is definitely questionable. My father scored no Iberian on FTDNA. My mother scored alot though in proportion for what her Euro component was.
There are people that get 0% Iberian at FTDNA but both parents get 36% or more. Not only that the same person that gets 0% at FTDNA gets 29% Iberian at 23andme. That is definite proof that FTDNA myOrigins 2.0 is trash and the OPs results show that LivingDNA is also in a desperate need of an upgrade if they are going to sell to people that are mainly from populations whose ancestry doesn't derive from the British Isles.

06-27-2017, 12:33 PM
LivingDNA is also in a desperate need of an upgrade if they are going to sell to people that are mainly from a populations whose ancestry doesn't derive from the British Isles.

Hi ArmandoR1b, I think it would be fair to await LDNA response first before trashing their testing algorithm, mistakes do happen maybe it's a bad batch of results as others have suggested, let's wait and see their response to Lilac.

ArmandoR1b
06-27-2017, 12:49 PM
Hi ArmandoR1b, I think it would be fair to await LDNA response first before trashing their testing algorithm, mistakes do happen maybe it's a bad batch of results as others have suggested, let's wait and see their response to Lilac.

I would be pleased to see a fast and positive outcome for the OP and the African-American tester with results that are far closer to their 23andme results and their known ancestry.

06-27-2017, 12:57 PM
Hey Sktibo,

As our unofficial ambassador to LDNA, if we do not get acceptable answers to these questions, I don't know if it's possible to somehow escalate the concerns of some of the people on here, so that it gets seen by "David Nicholson" ?

ollie444
06-27-2017, 01:05 PM
Hey Sktibo,

As our unofficial ambassador to LDNA, if we do not get acceptable answers to these questions, I don't know if it's possible to somehow escalate the concerns of some of the people on here, so that it gets seen by "David Nicholson" ?

You could find and message his anthrogenica account or email his livingdna email address. I'm sure I can find the latter somewhere if anybody wants it?

ollie444
06-27-2017, 01:14 PM
You could find and message his anthrogenica account or email his livingdna email address. I'm sure I can find the latter somewhere if anybody wants it?

Some emails here: http://www.bioinformatics.org/forums/forum.php?forum_id=12544 http://compgen.de/userfiles/downloads/livingdna/One%20Family%20German%20DNA%20Project_UK.pdf

Please note I am not directly putting contact information here on the forum, but am linking to publicly available pages on the internet. Also, bear in mind that David is probably a very busy man, unless you have a particularly pressing question that other branches of Living DNA fail to get answers to, I'd recommend not using it.

evon
06-27-2017, 01:53 PM
I really do dispute this. If you match the Iberian samples, you match. It doesn't matter what kind of ratio of British to Iberian samples there is. The problem is lack of Iberian samples, not the lack of Iberian samples in comparison to British samples.

It really depends on the selected samples and clusters, but it is true that over-representation can give you erroneous results.

A good example of anglo-centrism mixed with low representation is 23andme and FTDNA, they both have a clear biased "anglo-pull", which is visible for testers coming from Germany, Benelux and Scandinavia, who usually end up getting high British % even where there is no British ancestry. My grandmother is a good example with between 30-40% British..

sktibo
06-27-2017, 02:54 PM
Hey Sktibo,

As our unofficial ambassador to LDNA, if we do not get acceptable answers to these questions, I don't know if it's possible to somehow escalate the concerns of some of the people on here, so that it gets seen by "David Nicholson" ?

I've read on the facebook page that David Nicholson is concerned about and looking into these results (as he should be!). If they come back and say "Hey these are fine" I'll start writing one up with my suggestions, on the off chance they'll hear me.


I really do dispute this. If you match the Iberian samples, you match. It doesn't matter what kind of ratio of British to Iberian samples there is. The problem is lack of Iberian samples, not the lack of Iberian samples in comparison to British samples.

I'm sure that even if they had, say, 100 samples, it would be acceptable for the time being, to get results like this surely they are deficient, unless it is a major technical error, which I hope for their sake that it is.

Pylsteen
06-27-2017, 02:56 PM
I think they might (occasionally) follow this sub forum though, since there are not that many fora about Living DNA.

lilac9
06-27-2017, 03:24 PM
I heard back from them. This is an e-mail from David @LivingDNA
Hi Please can you provide us me your LD barcode number and I will have the team do some digging, we do have many African and Native American samples so these should be coming up, as should the Spanish samples, however we are working on a big update that includes many more Spanish samples for the last Quater this year, all results get updated free of charge. We've had many people in spain take tests and the results have shown Spanish ancestry so I am a little confused, we'll certainly look into this for you. Many thanks David @ Living DNA

J1 DYS388=13
06-27-2017, 03:31 PM
A lesson to be learned is not to buy the first or Beta version of a test. Especially when you know your data is an outlier to the dataset which is the basis of that test.

sktibo
06-27-2017, 03:38 PM
A lesson to be learned is not to buy the first or Beta version of a test. Especially when you know your data is an outlier to the dataset which is the basis of that test.

The problem with that of course is that it isn't advertised as a beta version


I heard back from them. This is an e-mail from David @LivingDNA
Hi Please can you provide us me your LD barcode number and I will have the team do some digging, we do have many African and Native American samples so these should be coming up, as should the Spanish samples, however we are working on a big update that includes many more Spanish samples for the last Quater this year, all results get updated free of charge. We've had many people in spain take tests and the results have shown Spanish ancestry so I am a little confused, we'll certainly look into this for you. Many thanks David @ Living DNA

This is very interesting, I'll be watching closely to see how they handle this situation.

Pylsteen
06-27-2017, 03:39 PM
The response sounds good, at least it is not a standard answer.

jonathanmcg1990
06-27-2017, 03:39 PM
I just received my results today and it says I am 81% British and Irish which is so wrong! I am Puerto Rican of mostly Spanish ancestry. I am 60% Iberian on 23andme. I just wrote back to them and I'm awaiting a reply. The only thing they got right was my mtDNA which is U5b2b on 23andme and U5b2b3a on LivingDNA.

It's not a scam it's just needs time to grow

lilac9
06-27-2017, 03:42 PM
Now I feel bad. Is there any way I can edit the title? I can't seem to find a way. Maybe change it to erroneous results.

sktibo
06-27-2017, 03:44 PM
Now I feel bad. Is there any way I can edit the title? I can't seem to find a way. Maybe change it to erroneous results.

I think your initial reaction was understandable, hopefully your title will catch the eye of Living DNA's employees and they will chime in to do some damage control. In this case I think that's what they should be doing. By the way, are your paper trail percentages posted somewhere? I'd like to know what your ethnic composition is in percentage form

FionnSneachta
06-27-2017, 03:48 PM
A lesson to be learned is not to buy the first or Beta version of a test. Especially when you know your data is an outlier to the dataset which is the basis of that test.

I don't think that it makes much of a difference to be honest. The results should be the same whether the test is taken now or two years later since the results will be updated constantly. Personally I prefer that I took the test before the Irish update. If I waited until afterwards, I'd have it in my head that if I took the test before the update I would have gotten a higher percentage of Irish than others. I also like that we get to see the process of our results improving.

lilac9
06-27-2017, 03:50 PM
My paper trail percentages are all Puerto Rican. I had a paternal great-grandfather born in Galicia in 1866 and another paternal 2nd great-grandfather born in Old Castile. That one arrived in Puerto Rico in 1860. He was born around 1830. I did find his death certificate.
17230 This is my Euro breakdown at 23andme.

17233
Here is Ancestry.com

MyOrigins 2.0
17234

MyHeritage
17235

Geneplaza
17236

Amerijoe
06-27-2017, 04:21 PM
My paper trail percentages are all Puerto Rican. I had a paternal great-grandfather born in Galicia in 1866 and another paternal 2nd great-grandfather born in Old Castile. That one arrived in Puerto Rico in 1860. He was born around 1830. I did find his death certificate.
17230 This is my Euro breakdown at 23andme.

17233
Here is Ancestry.com

MyOrigins 2.0
17234

MyHeritage
17235

Geneplaza
17236

Thank you for the results. They seem at first glance to confirm your Spanish heritage. I still would do a one to one with your Livingdna results and at least one of the above if not all and send the results to Dr. Nicholson. :)

lilac9
06-27-2017, 05:08 PM
Ok the latest on my situation. My results have disappeared and now say Data Review.

ollie444
06-27-2017, 05:09 PM
Ok the latest on my situation. My results have disappeared and now say Data Review.

fingers crossed they reappear with a bunch of Iberian ancestry :)

06-27-2017, 05:17 PM
A lesson to be learned is not to buy the first or Beta version of a test. Especially when you know your data is an outlier to the dataset which is the basis of that test.

Actually I love being a beta tester, just downloaded the iOS 11 public beta.:angel:

sktibo
06-28-2017, 02:50 AM
Ok the latest on my situation. My results have disappeared and now say Data Review.

Fantastic! Hopefully they'll realize their sampling is insufficient outside of Britain.

estevard
06-28-2017, 04:51 AM
Actually I love being a beta tester, just downloaded the iOS 11 public beta.:angel:

As Robert Louis Stevenson said: To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive. (http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/games/travel_hopefully.htm)

procoptodon
06-28-2017, 06:01 AM
There is no proof whatsoever that it is only accurate for the last 500 years. Not only is there no proof but autosomal DNA for large populations take more than 500 years to drift enough from other populations to be distinct. So Iberian DNA differentiated from neighboring populations a lot more than 500 years ago.


That has nothing to do with Iberians born and raised in Iberia having more accurate results with 23andme than with the other calculators. The person that started the site at http://www.iberiandna.com/ is from Spain and has seen enough test results from the various companies of people born and raised in Iberia to stick with 23andme as the better calculator.


Like I said in the first portion of my response, Iberian DNA was already differentiated more than 500 years ago. If there was a difference between 1,000 and 500 years ago in Spain it would not be large.


There are people that get 0% Iberian at FTDNA but both parents get 36% or more. Not only that the same person that gets 0% at FTDNA gets 29% Iberian at 23andme. That is definite proof that FTDNA myOrigins 2.0 is trash and the OPs results show that LivingDNA is also in a desperate need of an upgrade if they are going to sell to people that are mainly from populations whose ancestry doesn't derive from the British Isles.

https://mediacenter.23andme.com/press-releases/23andmes-ancestry-composition-reveals-peoples-ancestral-origins-going-back-500-years-and-more/




Company introduces the most comprehensive and accurate tool for determining genetic ancestry composition availableMountain View, Calif. — December 13, 2012 — 23andMe, the leading personal genetics company, today announced the availability of Ancestry Composition, a new feature that provides state-of-the-art geographic illustration of an individual’s ancestral origins. Using 22 reference populations, the feature indicates what percent of a person’s ancestry comes from various regions around the world. The analysis includes DNA inherited from all ancestors on both sides of the family. The results reflect where an individual’s ancestors lived going back approximately 500 years.Ancestry Composition offers state-of-the art detail for people with European ancestry, breaking it out into several regions with the ability to identify distinct ancestral origins, such as: British and Irish, Scandinavian, Italian and Ashkenazi Jewish, among others. It also offers very accurate breakdowns for individuals of mixed ancestry, African Americans, Latinos and Native Americans


https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004349807-Understanding-Your-Ancestry-Composition-Results

The time scale reflected by Ancestry Composition may be different from the time scale of your records. The reference datasets that we use to calculate your Ancestry Composition are designed to reflect distinct, genetically similar populations that existed before transcontinental travel and migration was common (at least 500 years ago). For example, if recent generations of your family lived in Latin America, you are likely to have some Native American and some Iberian genetic ancestry because most mixing between those two populations happened within the past 500 years.


https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2015/04/03/ask-ancestry-anne-answers-5-dna-questions/

2. I’ve done my DNA test and I’ve seen my ethnic breakdown. Now what?
Check out the information on the history of these regions by clicking on each ethnic region and explore the history of the people your DNA matches. Remember these results can go back 500-1000 years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy8hnLMhh5Q

I score no Italian in 23andme and almost no mena. I score Italian and greek in ancestry. nearly half of my Euro component plus 11 percent Middle eastern. I also score about 11 percent Middle eastern in FTDNA though.

Horribly in myheritage, transferring in my kit it believes about 20 percent of DNA is greek also. and then my other Euro DNA is mixed up with the bad mestizo sampling for central american.

http://www.iberiandna.com/ link doesn't work for me. Maybe I will try later.

lilac9
06-28-2017, 04:05 PM
My results are in and they look more in line with what I get at other DNA companies. Bear with me because I tried uploading and for some reason it says my file can't be uploaded here because its jpg instead of png. I don't know what its not working for me today when I just did it yesterday so I just resorted to copy and paste.

Europe 83.9%
Native Americas 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Asia (South) 1.1%
That's me globally.

Europe (South) 72.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
Native Americas 7.8%
Mesoamerica 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Yorubaland 3.4%
Mandinka 2.4%
East Africa 1.3%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Sindh 1.1%

Euro breakdown
Europe 83.9%
Europe (South) 72.9%
Iberian Peninsula 66.3%
North Italy 3.2%
South Italy 2.1%
Tuscany 1.3%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
England and Wales 11.1%

I'm surprised I get no North African in this though. I usually get quite a lot except at 23andme where I only have 1.4%.

Does this 11% mean I match the Welsh sample?

They also said that one of their files had become corrupted and that was what contributed to the error. But I am once again Spanish at 66.3% even higher than 23andme's 60% Iberian!

sktibo
06-28-2017, 04:14 PM
My results are in and they look more in line with what I get at other DNA companies. Bear with me because I tried uploading and for some reason it says my file can't be uploaded here because its jpg instead of png. I don't know what its not working for me today when I just did it yesterday so I just resorted to copy and paste.

Europe 83.9%
Native Americas 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Asia (South) 1.1%
That's me globally.

Europe (South) 72.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
Native Americas 7.8%
Mesoamerica 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Yorubaland 3.4%
Mandinka 2.4%
East Africa 1.3%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Sindh 1.1%

Euro breakdown
Europe 83.9%
Europe (South) 72.9%
Iberian Peninsula 66.3%
North Italy 3.2%
South Italy 2.1%
Tuscany 1.3%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
England and Wales 11.1%


Does this 11% mean I match the Welsh sample?

Happy to see they fixed that, though I'm concerned about what might have happened and how they revamped your results so drastically. Your new results fall right in line with your results from other companies now. Did it break Britain down past England and Wales?

Any chance you'd ask them to explain what happened in the first place?

lilac9
06-28-2017, 04:19 PM
No it just says England and Wales. What does that mean? I thought it meant I matched the Welsh.

They said one of their files had become corrupted and that was the cause of the error.

But this seems like me. On Gedrosia K3 I get 82.5 Caucasian.

sktibo
06-28-2017, 04:24 PM
No it just says England and Wales. What does that mean? I thought it meant I matched the Welsh.

They said one of their files had become corrupted and that was the cause of the error.

But this seems like me. On Gedrosia K3 I get 82.5 Caucasian.

I guess that sort of thing can happen. I'm happy with how quickly they handled it.
it means you match English and welsh populations but not well enough to define which ones

kingjohn
06-28-2017, 04:28 PM
one word
impressive :D

lilac9
06-28-2017, 04:55 PM
I guess that sort of thing can happen. I'm happy with how quickly they handled it.
it means you match English and welsh populations but not well enough to define which ones

Oh thank you for clarifying that I was confused because first I saw England and Ireland 11% and then subdivided it says England and Wales. So this means Ireland isn't included?

evon
06-28-2017, 04:58 PM
My results are in and they look more in line with what I get at other DNA companies. Bear with me because I tried uploading and for some reason it says my file can't be uploaded here because its jpg instead of png. I don't know what its not working for me today when I just did it yesterday so I just resorted to copy and paste.

Europe 83.9%
Native Americas 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Asia (South) 1.1%
That's me globally.

Europe (South) 72.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
Native Americas 7.8%
Mesoamerica 7.8%
Africa 7.1%
Yorubaland 3.4%
Mandinka 2.4%
East Africa 1.3%
Asia (South) 1.1%
Sindh 1.1%

Euro breakdown
Europe 83.9%
Europe (South) 72.9%
Iberian Peninsula 66.3%
North Italy 3.2%
South Italy 2.1%
Tuscany 1.3%
Great Britain and Ireland 11.1%
England and Wales 11.1%

I'm surprised I get no North African in this though. I usually get quite a lot except at 23andme where I only have 1.4%.

Does this 11% mean I match the Welsh sample?

They also said that one of their files had become corrupted and that was what contributed to the error. But I am once again Spanish at 66.3% even higher than 23andme's 60% Iberian!

I am glad you got it fixed and I am glad I was wrong in assuming their anglo-centrism was more "pronounced" than it actually is... I have been informed via some other costumers that this error caused problems for several costumers, who have all had their results corrected now...

ollie444
06-28-2017, 04:59 PM
Oh thank you for clarifying that I was confused because first I saw England and Ireland 11% and then subdivided it says England and Wales. So this means Ireland isn't included?

Possibly not, I've no idea! I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not it includes Ireland at the moment, as they only have seven Irish reference samples.

lilac9
06-28-2017, 05:01 PM
Possibly not, I've no idea! I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not it includes Ireland at the moment, as they only have seven Irish reference samples.

OK gotcha! I guess some of my Iberian resembles the English and Welsh sample.

Aldric
06-28-2017, 05:32 PM
As others reiterated, maybe the pin-pointed problem is a sampling error or mixed order? Don't take my word for it entirely since I am merely speculating from a third person perspective. Nevertheless, I can only imagine the intricacies in what goes into start-up dna companies when you take on large sums of people globally on a weekly basis. If feel that with that in mind, anomalies are bound to happen as I know happened to some people with 23andme when their orders were mixed up. Thus, the disparity in errors is more prone in livingdna than 23andme since 23andMe has more experience and years under its belt to learn from their mistakes. I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, but maybe we should give the startup company an "eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" per se. Meaning that, if they can be given time to reciprocate for the error for the amount of money you paid, all can be well. If not, you have every right to pursue the right to be compensated or reimbursed for the error if nothing is done about it. Seeing that, buying dna kits can be quite expensive when it comes to processing them over a lengthy process.

Nevertheless, at some point, I'm thinking of maybe buying a kit from them since the company seems to have alot of potential despite its setbacks. :-P

Kathlingram
06-28-2017, 05:40 PM
I am glad you got it fixed and I am glad I was wrong in assuming their anglo-centrism was more "pronounced" than it actually is... I have been informed via some other costumers that this error caused problems for several costumers, who have all had their results corrected now...

Yes one of them was me.. I got the same corrected message just now when I queried the HELP IT person

Monday I had 2.9 Irish and lots of Aberdeen and other places and today I have decent Irish %.. low but closer to what I would expect..half or more.. and some Orkney also..

kingjohn
06-28-2017, 05:41 PM
if i was non jewish i would take this test no hasitation
but for jewish people they dont have refrences
i think you should take it
it is expensive but it looks good .... ;)

Kathlingram
06-28-2017, 05:43 PM
Yes one of them was me.. I got the same corrected message just now when I queried the HELP IT person

Monday I had 2.9 Irish and lots of Aberdeen and other places and today I have decent Irish %.. low but closer to what I would expect..half or more.. and some Orkney also..

My paper trail:" maybe or maybe not a Norway grandfather ( my father's putative father) His mother was paternally from an old Colonial US line which is where the Welsh comes in..Heavily heavily Wales but prior to 1710 ( Delaware and PA Welsh tracts) Grandmother's maternal line was 100% Ireland Carlow and Count Tyrone as adults

My mother's father was first generation US Born 100% ireland ( Donegal and Limerick) Limerick side was Norman who came in 1250s.. My mother's mother was Sweden c. 1800 German Palatinate 1740s and my mitoDNA 2nd great grandmother born in Kilgarven Kerry in 1840s and came to New Bedford Mass where she married the German whaler and her daughter married the Palatinate."

tomz
06-29-2017, 12:22 AM
oops wrong thread

sktibo
06-29-2017, 04:32 AM
OK gotcha! I guess some of my Iberian resembles the English and Welsh sample.

Out of the British Isles groups, I believe the English are genetically closest to the Iberians and other Southern Europeans.

sktibo
06-29-2017, 04:34 AM
if i was non jewish i would take this test no hasitation
but for jewish people they dont have refrences
i think you should take it
it is expensive but it looks good .... ;)

I want you to take it if you feel so inclined.. we would be able to see which of it's populations are closest to Jewish...
Do it for science?

Luis
06-29-2017, 04:50 AM
How much do you pay for that test and do they send you a kit all the way from Great Britain? Do you spit or scrap your cheeks? I wonder if they will follow My Heritage and WEGene's examples and allow raw data uploads?

sktibo
06-29-2017, 04:59 AM
How much do you pay for that test and do they send you a kit all the way from Great Britain? Do you spit or scrap your cheeks? I wonder if they will follow My Heritage and WEGene's examples and allow raw data uploads?

Cheek swab. Allowing raw data uploads from other major companies is in the works.

06-29-2017, 07:42 AM
Out of the British Isles groups, I believe the English are genetically closest to the Iberians and other Southern Europeans.

Hey Sktibo, did you read my post about the colony of Britonia? Northen Spain circa 6-7 C

kingjohn
06-29-2017, 10:07 AM
I want you to take it if you feel so inclined.. we would be able to see which of it's populations are closest to Jewish...
Do it for science?

i pref fer to take family finder for my father and mother
instead :)
my mother is interested in this my father not so much
my mother wants to find out if she would score eastern euro like me or west central euro like my brother....

regards
adam


p.s

i can tell you which component i would score in living dna without any doubt because they don't have jewish references
tuscan or north italian
and because they also don't have Sephardi i would probably score iberian as i scored 6% southwest europe in dna land .....

Pylsteen
06-29-2017, 10:13 AM
p.s

i can tell you which component i would score in living dna without any doubt because they don't have jewish references
tuscan or north italian
and because they also don't have Sephardi i would probably score iberian as i scored 6% southwest europe in dna land .....

I got Kurdish (2,5%), West Balkan (2,5%) and Iberian (1,5%) for the 1/16 Jewish. I interpret that as a pre-Arab Levantine (more West-Asian) + Mediterranean + some Eastern European, which right now is good enough. Others may indeed get some Italian, Tuscan.

ollie444
06-29-2017, 11:02 AM
Out of the British Isles groups, I believe the English are genetically closest to the Iberians and other Southern Europeans.

The feature at the bottom of the descriptions for the different regions in the UK seems to have France cropping up as the highest percentage most often.

ArmandoR1b
06-29-2017, 12:55 PM
https://mediacenter.23andme.com/press-releases/23andmes-ancestry-composition-reveals-peoples-ancestral-origins-going-back-500-years-and-more/

The title states AND MORE So they aren't saying ONLY 500 years ago. You have not provided proof of when the drift of Iberian DNA became distinct. It definitely was more than 500 years ago.



https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004349807-Understanding-Your-Ancestry-Composition-Results

The following is in that link - "The reference datasets that we use to calculate your Ancestry Composition are designed to reflect distinct, genetically similar populations that existed before transcontinental travel and migration was common (at least 500 years ago)." I bolded the at least part which is evidence that they are not saying ONLY 500 years ago.



https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/2015/04/03/ask-ancestry-anne-answers-5-dna-questions/

promotional video
They provide those dates for to state that the ethnicity that is showing up in people can be from 1,000 years ago. That is not proof of when the drift of Iberian DNA became distinct. A promotional video by AncestryDNA isn't scientific proof that their results are more realistic for 1,000 years ago. It's simply a belief.


I score no Italian in 23andme and almost no mena. I score Italian and greek in ancestry. nearly half of my Euro component plus 11 percent Middle eastern. I also score about 11 percent Middle eastern in FTDNA though.

Horribly in myheritage, transferring in my kit it believes about 20 percent of DNA is greek also. and then my other Euro DNA is mixed up with the bad mestizo sampling for central american.
I don't know your ancestry or your full results from those companies so I can't say much about what you posted. It really has no meaning to me without that data. It looks like you think that you should have Italian andor Balkan at 23andme because you think your AncestryDNA results are real. You haven't sold me on that. What I can say is that I have seen a lot of results from a lot of people whose ancestry I am familiar with and when they test at 23andme the results are closer to their genealogical paper trail. Not counting the Native American DNA and the West African DNA there are many Latin Americans that get European results similar to what Spaniards get at the respective companies. Since the European portion for Spaniards is similar at the different companies then we know that the different companies do things differently for Spaniards. What is lacking from all of this is the proof that the Iberian DNA wasn't already as distinct 1,000 years ago as it was 500 years ago.


http://www.iberiandna.com/ link doesn't work for me. Maybe I will try later.
It works for me even when I click on the link from your post.

sktibo
06-29-2017, 01:00 PM
The feature at the bottom of the descriptions for the different regions in the UK seems to have France cropping up as the highest percentage most often.

I'm pretty sure that feature is using pobi data and combining clusters such as FRA17, and FRA14 both from France but which have little in common for example. TBH I don't think it actually means anything... It's trying to give customers a quick and dirty idea of where UK DNA is sourced from, although FRA17 and 14 both were genetically linked to people from France, they could be thousands of years apart, as 17 isn't found in the Welsh Clusters and is dominant in SE England for example. Regardless, England has the greatest Neolithic or southern pull out of the British isles Nations.

ollie444
06-29-2017, 01:11 PM
I'm pretty sure that feature is using pobi data and combining clusters such as FRA17, and FRA14 both from France but which have little in common for example. TBH I don't think it actually means anything... It's trying to give customers a quick and dirty idea of where UK DNA is sourced from, yet although FRA17 and 14 both were genetically linked to people from France, they could be thousands if years apart, as 17 isn't found in the Welsh Clusters and is dominant in SE England for example. Regardless, England has the greatest Neolithic or southern pull out of the British isles Nations.

My results from ancestry and ftdna do both have about 5% Iberian so you're probably right :)

sktibo
06-29-2017, 02:12 PM
Hey Sktibo, did you read my post about the colony of Britonia? Northen Spain circa 6-7 C

Could you link me to it please?

06-29-2017, 02:19 PM
Could you link me to it please?

Its just about why some people of Spanish heritage get small amounts of British & Irish.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11100-Erroneous-first-results-now-corrected&p=252419&viewfull=1#post252419

Amerijoe
06-29-2017, 03:29 PM
The title states AND MORE
What I can say is that I have seen a lot of results from a lot of people whose ancestry I am familiar with and when they test at 23andme the results are closer to their genealogical paper trail.

I emphasize this quote, to relate to the fact that I too looked through the lens of skepticism concerning 23andMe results. Up to recently they were the only company since I've started my search to list Scandinavian in their breakdown. To note I've tested with every available company to date. Just recently MyHeritage updated results which include Scandinavian. Livingdna just did the same. Has 23and me been right all along in their breakdown and the rest are catching up? :)

sktibo
06-29-2017, 03:46 PM
I emphasize this quote, to relate to the fact that I too looked through the lens of skepticism concerning 23andMe results. Up to recently they were the only company since I've started my search to list Scandinavian in their breakdown. To note I've tested with every available company to date. Just recently MyHeritage updated results which include Scandinavian. Livingdna just did the same. Has 23and me been right all along in their breakdown and the rest are catching up? :)

At this point I take 23andme's results over any other test. Most people seem to agree with me that it most closely resembles their paper trails. It gives me 0% Scandinavian, which in my case is true, Living DNA gives me (IIRC) 7.2% Scandinavian, but 0% Germanic, which I was expecting quite a lot of. Thus, I think Living DNA's Scandinavian might often be misinterpreted as Germanic, which is no surprise as they're similar! However, knowing what I know about your background Joe, being Scottish I would expect you to have some Scandinavian admixture.

Amerijoe
06-29-2017, 04:53 PM
At this point I take 23andme's results over any other test. Most people seem to agree with me that it most closely resembles their paper trails. It gives me 0% Scandinavian, which in my case is true, Living DNA gives me (IIRC) 7.2% Scandinavian, but 0% Germanic, which I was expecting quite a lot of. Thus, I think Living DNA's Scandinavian might often be misinterpreted as Germanic, which is no surprise as they're similar! However, knowing what I know about your background Joe, being Scottish I would expect you to have some Scandinavian admixture.

I think what skews these results are the mix of ancient and modern populations which are at times are indistinguishable. In my case I get no modern German but get a good amount of German_Volga in certain admixtures. The same with French. Being a Bell Beaker/Corded Ware blend, lends to speculation, this may have some validity?

As far as the Scandinavian, 23 gives me 1.4% and my maternal aunt 0.4%. I guess my Scot ancestors didn't like Surstromming so much.:)

lilac9
06-29-2017, 05:06 PM
Test seems to have hit this chap the other way around: https://thegenealogycorner.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/my-living-dna-experience/ Apparently he's a quarter British - only given 1.1%!

EDIT: Plus he's given mostly French for his Spanish. I think they must have a gross lack of Iberian samples, much like the Irish reference set.

I was just looking at this guy's results and he actually knows he has some British ancestry and he only gets 1%? I don't know of any British ancestry in my family tree yet I got 11%! The only other company who has given me British is MyHeritage and I think FamilyTree MyOrigins 1.0 gave me 15% British Isles. That though went down to 4% with myOrigins 2.0.

ollie444
06-29-2017, 05:21 PM
I was just looking at this guy's results and he actually knows he has some British ancestry and he only gets 1%? I don't know of any British ancestry in my family tree yet I got 11%! The only other company who has given me British is MyHeritage and I think FamilyTree MyOrigins 1.0 gave me 15% British Isles. That though went down to 4% with myOrigins 2.0.

Maybe his results were corrupted too?

lilac9
06-29-2017, 05:25 PM
Maybe his results were corrupted too?

Could be Ollie! But he gives them a rather glowing review and seems to not find any fault that they found him to be primarily French! He says he did it for the mt and Y-dna. I would be pissed if they found me to be French if I was mainly Spanish! I don't have any ancestry in my tree that suggests either Italian or French either. There are people in Puerto Rico with French and Italian surnames but I am not one of them.

lilac9
06-29-2017, 05:39 PM
Ok let's be fair. I've been looking at Standard and Cautious Modes now and this is what I get.

Europe 83.9%
Europe (South) 66.3%
Iberian Peninsula 66.3%
Europe (unassigned) 17.6%
Mesoamerica-related ancestry 7.8%
Yorubaland-related ancestry 7.1%
World (unassigned) 1.1%

So there is 17.6% unassigned Euro. Only on Complete Mode do I get the huge chunk of British 11% and the rest Italian.

lilac9
06-29-2017, 06:54 PM
Guys what of your raw LivingDNA download? Mine opens up my WindowsLive e-mail which I never use and it doesn't appear to be working. Also, the file doesn't work at Genesis Gedmatch either because it says the file is too small. I've sent several e-mails to LivingDNA about this issue. So far no reply.

ollie444
06-29-2017, 07:50 PM
Guys what of your raw LivingDNA download? Mine opens up my WindowsLive e-mail which I never use and it doesn't appear to be working. Also, the file doesn't work at Genesis Gedmatch either because it says the file is too small. I've sent several e-mails to LivingDNA about this issue. So far no reply.

Sounds like they still haven't fixed that for you then. I can't view my file on my computer either, but it uploads to genesis fine. Don't worry though, they are releasing a standard txt file raw download on July 10th.

sktibo
06-29-2017, 08:56 PM
Sounds like they still haven't fixed that for you then. I can't view my file on my computer either, but it uploads to genesis fine. Don't worry though, they are releasing a standard txt file raw download on July 10th.

ooooo we have an exact date? exciting news

06-30-2017, 07:59 AM
Sounds like they still haven't fixed that for you then. I can't view my file on my computer either, but it uploads to genesis fine. Don't worry though, they are releasing a standard txt file raw download on July 10th.

Hope i'm not teaching you to suck eggs!
But:-
If you rename the file extension from *.vcf to *.txt
you then will be able to open it in wordpad or notepad.

procoptodon
06-30-2017, 10:06 AM
The title states AND MORE So they aren't saying ONLY 500 years ago. You have not provided proof of when the drift of Iberian DNA became distinct. It definitely was more than 500 years ago.




The following is in that link - "The reference datasets that we use to calculate your Ancestry Composition are designed to reflect distinct, genetically similar populations that existed before transcontinental travel and migration was common (at least 500 years ago)." I bolded the at least part which is evidence that they are not saying ONLY 500 years ago.



They provide those dates for to state that the ethnicity that is showing up in people can be from 1,000 years ago. That is not proof of when the drift of Iberian DNA became distinct. A promotional video by AncestryDNA isn't scientific proof that their results are more realistic for 1,000 years ago. It's simply a belief.


I don't know your ancestry or your full results from those companies so I can't say much about what you posted. It really has no meaning to me without that data. It looks like you think that you should have Italian and or Balkan at 23andme because you think your AncestryDNA results are real. You haven't sold me on that. What I can say is that I have seen a lot of results from a lot of people whose ancestry I am familiar with and when they test at 23andme the results are closer to their genealogical paper trail. Not counting the Native American DNA and the West African DNA there are many Latin Americans that get European results similar to what Spaniards get at the respective companies. Since the European portion for Spaniards is similar at the different companies then we know that the different companies do things differently for Spaniards. What is lacking from all of this is the proof that the Iberian DNA wasn't already as distinct 1,000 years ago as it was 500 years ago.


It works for me even when I click on the link from your post.

Yes and more but its estimated approximately 500 years. for 23andme
Ancestry DNA is 500-1000 years but its advertised for 1000 years.

To me it looks like Ancestry is more real for older time than 23andme.
Not because of Balkan Italian. But because I get Middle eastern. I also score 10.55 percent on wegene middle eastern. FTDNA I get about 11 percent middle eastern also.

The European composition for FTDNA is not accurate. But I believe probably that Ancestry is better because it picks up middle eastern like the other ones
Although Heritage gave me about 20 percent Greek. And then the rest of my west eurasian got mixed up with the central american category it looks like.

Is there a DNA testing company/ or calculator that uses samples from isolated tribes and remains from antiquity? Not contemporary admixed populations?

Wegene micro interpretation calculator Banner K13 result
Pretty accurate I think
I get about 7.15% percent south west asia and then 5.21% west asian
https://s3.postimg.org/5cc10bchf/Wegene.jpg

My euro Genes K11:

South Asian 0.08
Caucasus 4.79
Southwest Asian 7.95
North Amerindian + Arctic 21.67
Siberian 0.50
Mediterranean 12.80
East Asian 3.04
West African 24.54
Volga-Ural 0.62
South Baltic 3.01
North Atlantic 21.00

But not Middle eastern in 23andme??? Only 23andme???

ollie444
06-30-2017, 11:38 AM
Hope i'm not teaching you to suck eggs!
But:-
If you rename the file extension from *.vcf to *.txt
you then will be able to open it in wordpad or notepad.

Success! -ta very much:) 17303

ollie444
06-30-2017, 11:59 AM
Success! -ta very much:) 17303

Oh dear, this brings up fresh problems. I've already found discrepancies between my livingdna raw data and my ancestrydna raw data. I know that dna can be presented in different ways, but I'm assuming I'm reading the data here correctly?

17304

Assuming I am reading this correctly, I'm going to wait until LivingDNA officially release a txt format, just to see if this is an initial error. Otherwise I will have to contact both companies...

MacUalraig
06-30-2017, 02:11 PM
Ancestry report the two calls for each SNP which are commonly the same, so their 'A A' indicates you are ancestral for the SNP. A VCF report starts by showing the ancestral and derived (alternate) alleles for reference so you need to look further along the line to see your results. So the 'A G' at the start of the VCF report line is just a reference note of the ancestral and alternate alleles for the SNP, not your result. Usually there is a GT field further along with your GenoType expressed as a pair numbers, 0 for ancestral and 1 for derived. What is the full VCF report line for the one you showed in the screenshot?

06-30-2017, 02:12 PM
Oh dear, this brings up fresh problems. I've already found discrepancies between my livingdna raw data and my ancestrydna raw data. I know that dna can be presented in different ways, but I'm assuming I'm reading the data here correctly?

17304

Assuming I am reading this correctly, I'm going to wait until LivingDNA officially release a txt format, just to see if this is an initial error. Otherwise I will have to contact both companies...

hmmm interesting, to give you different calls...:\

ArmandoR1b
06-30-2017, 03:19 PM
Yes and more but its estimated approximately 500 years. for 23andme
And more means further back than 500 years ago which means that 23andme isn't saying that it is accurate only for the last 500 years only.



Ancestry DNA is 500-1000 years but its advertised for 1000 years.
That's an advertisement and not scientific proof. There is no scientific basis that their test is more accurate than 23andme for 1,000 years ago.


To me it looks like Ancestry is more real for older time than 23andme.
That's my point. It is your belief and not a scientific fact.


Not because of Balkan Italian. But because I get Middle eastern. I also score 10.55 percent on wegene middle eastern. FTDNA I get about 11 percent middle eastern also.
You are picking and choosing. You aren't providing a scientific basis for any of what you believe to be more accurate and you are basing all of it on your own anecdotal results as opposed to basing it on the results of a large number of people with well documented genealogy. The scientific method demands reproducibility with a substantial number of test samples and you haven't shown the reproducibility to be higher with AncestryDNA or with the other companies


The European composition for FTDNA is not accurate.
It is the most accurate test for a higher percentage of the test results of people with well documented genealogy



But I believe probably that Ancestry is better because it picks up middle eastern like the other ones
My point continues. It is what you believe based on anecdotal results. What about all of the other testers with well documented genealogy.



Although Heritage gave me about 20 percent Greek. And then the rest of my west eurasian got mixed up with the central american category it looks like.
MyHeritage is also a bad test from what I have seen.


Is there a DNA testing company/ or calculator that uses samples from isolated tribes and remains from antiquity? Not contemporary admixed populations?
Not a single one and all of the companies would have to have a very large number of ancient samples, like 23andme does for modern populations, in order to have a direct comparison.



Wegene micro interpretation calculator Banner K13 result
Pretty accurate I think
I get about 7.15% percent south west asia and then 5.21% west asian

My euro Genes K11:


But not Middle eastern in 23andme??? Only 23andme???
What you get with any calculator isn't proof that the timing for the DNA results of any of the calculators. You can keep spitting out all these numbers but the scientific method has not been used at all either for the timing or for proof that the other calculators are more accurate. In simple terms you are using subjectivity and not objectivity.

Since you like anecdotal examples I'll give you a good one on why AncestryDNA isn't accurate. A person from Mexico received 90.0% East Asian and Native American with some southern European and African DNA with 23andme but got 99% Native American with AncestryDNA and no European DNA or West African DNA at all. Gedmatch also showed him to have European and African DNA. You can't say that the European and African DNA is all of a sudden Native American because of a time difference.

There are also a lot of examples of northern Europeans getting a lot more southern European DNA with AncestryDNA than would be accurate for 1,000 years ago. You can speculate on that being due to some small migration a long time ago but there is no scientific proof that is the cause.

Until there is scientific proof using the scientific method, and not subjectivity, then I am going to consider 23andme being the better test for Iberian DNA based on the results of a lot of people with a either a lot of documented Iberian ancestry or only documented Iberian ancestry.

ollie444
06-30-2017, 03:37 PM
Ancestry report the two calls for each SNP which are commonly the same, so their 'A A' indicates you are ancestral for the SNP. A VCF report starts by showing the ancestral and derived (alternate) alleles for reference so you need to look further along the line to see your results. So the 'A G' at the start of the VCF report line is just a reference note of the ancestral and alternate alleles for the SNP, not your result. Usually there is a GT field further along with your GenoType expressed as a pair numbers, 0 for ancestral and 1 for derived. What is the full VCF report line for the one you showed in the screenshot?

I see. You are correct, thank you.

Edit: If it says ./. instead of the numbers, does this mean they didn't call at all for that particular snp?

MacUalraig
06-30-2017, 03:52 PM
I see. You are correct, thank you.

Edit: If it says ./. instead of the numbers, does this mean they didn't call at all for that particular snp?

Not seen that before so possibly. Its worth looking at the definition at the top of the file (the INFO and FORMAT rows) as some VCFs have additional info like number of reads.

procoptodon
06-30-2017, 11:44 PM
And more means further back than 500 years ago which means that 23andme isn't saying that it is accurate only for the last 500 years only.



That's an advertisement and not scientific proof. There is no scientific basis that their test is more accurate than 23andme for 1,000 years ago.


That's my point. It is your belief and not a scientific fact.


You are picking and choosing. You aren't providing a scientific basis for any of what you believe to be more accurate and you are basing all of it on your own anecdotal results as opposed to basing it on the results of a large number of people with well documented genealogy. The scientific method demands reproducibility with a substantial number of test samples and you haven't shown the reproducibility to be higher with AncestryDNA or with the other companies


It is the most accurate test for a higher percentage of the test results of people with well documented genealogy


My point continues. It is what you believe based on anecdotal results. What about all of the other testers with well documented genealogy.


MyHeritage is also a bad test from what I have seen.


Not a single one and all of the companies would have to have a very large number of ancient samples, like 23andme does for modern populations, in order to have a direct comparison.



What you get with any calculator isn't proof that the timing for the DNA results of any of the calculators. You can keep spitting out all these numbers but the scientific method has not been used at all either for the timing or for proof that the other calculators are more accurate. In simple terms you are using subjectivity and not objectivity.

Since you like anecdotal examples I'll give you a good one on why AncestryDNA isn't accurate. A person from Mexico received 90.0% East Asian and Native American with some southern European and African DNA with 23andme but got 99% Native American with AncestryDNA and no European DNA or West African DNA at all. Gedmatch also showed him to have European and African DNA. You can't say that the European and African DNA is all of a sudden Native American because of a time difference.

There are also a lot of examples of northern Europeans getting a lot more southern European DNA with AncestryDNA than would be accurate for 1,000 years ago. You can speculate on that being due to some small migration a long time ago but there is no scientific proof that is the cause.

Until there is scientific proof using the scientific method, and not subjectivity, then I am going to consider 23andme being the better test for Iberian DNA based on the results of a lot of people with a either a lot of documented Iberian ancestry or only documented Iberian ancestry.

Its not proof? Do i need to post more calculator results? Its mixing some middle eastern with Southern European. Plus a large portion of my ancestry in 23andme is just labeled "broadly southern Euro, which is were my middle eastern should likely be...

Only 23andme getting it wrong? Even gedmatch calculators get it right. But no its not evidence of anything. Just my imagination that 23andme is the only one doing it wrong.

tomz
07-01-2017, 09:22 PM
I am still trying to wrap my head around this corrupted file issue in relation to the erroneous initial results lilac9 received. I wonder how it happened, how many testers were affected (and if it was remedied), were they even notified. .

Kathlingram
07-01-2017, 09:39 PM
I am still trying to wrap my head around this corrupted file issue in relation to the erroneous initial results lilac9 received. I wonder how it happened, how many testers were affected (and if it was remedied), were they even notified. .

I was one and I know of 5 or 6 others but only because they have posted elsewhere.. I contacted them myself more than once and got responses..although at first was not understood that I had "NO" Irish.. Which is how I found myself here..Others just were aware when results changed but then I think they were informed.. This:"Hello Kathleen
Thank you for getting in touch. I have just been informed that we recently noticed that some of the information in our database had corrupted.
We believe this has caused some regions to be assigned in error for a few of our customers.
We have now made the required updates and corrections in our database and have re-run your raw data through our pipeline to insure that your results are now as we would expect to be."

Still pretty alarming as I remember clearly years ago when 23andme mixed up some kits ( maybe 2010-11) and there was the biggest fallout that you can imagine..Hysteria.. outside agencies and lawyers contacted
No one seems worried about this..although I would think they have to be

tomz
07-02-2017, 09:30 PM
It is good that they gave you an explanation, but it still appears from the response they gave you, that they only re-run data for people who directly reported results that were clearly erroneous. What about the other"few" that were affected? Also, I wonder how they will safeguard against any further file corruptions. Hopefully this will be taken care of by the next update.

Kathlingram
07-02-2017, 09:36 PM
It is good that they gave you an explanation, but it still appears from the response they gave you, that they only re-run data for people who directly reported results that were clearly erroneous. What about the other"few" that were affected? Also, I wonder how they will safeguard against any further file corruptions. Hopefully this will be taken care of by the next update.

Definitely agree