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sktibo
06-27-2017, 03:50 PM
Since we know Living DNA uses the POBI data for its British regions, I thought it would be good to post some maps of the POBI regions here and how many references they have for each population. I've also attached the totals in percentage form for each POBI region in case anyone wants to access or look over those.

Overall map and numbers for each population:
17227

Close up, England and Wales: [This one is of particular interest as it shows how the boundaries of Living DNA's "Northwest England" region were likely decided upon.]
17228

Close up, Scotland and Ireland:
17229

POBI map, less defined:
17231

Text document with the percentages for each POBI region:
17232

Dubhthach
06-27-2017, 03:54 PM
As far as I know they didn't have any external references, they generated each cluster by just using the totality of their sample base. Which give the huge oversampling in England result in all the other clusters 'budding' from the 'Red Cluster' as they moved the K level up on each run.

sktibo
06-27-2017, 03:59 PM
As far as I know they didn't have any external references, they generated each cluster by just using the totality of their sample base. Which give the huge oversampling in England result in all the other clusters 'budding' from the 'Red Cluster' as they moved the K level up on each run.

In an email inquiry I sent to them, they gave me the impression that they had added a few more samples to their British dataset, here's what they said about that:

"We also wanted our clusters to be interpretable when making use of geographic labels, which informed which level of the clustering we used. We used the POBI data for this when considering the UK, but for LivingDNA we re-classified these POBI samples using a slightly updated version of the above clustering algorithm compared to what was originally used in the POBI paper. Our re-analysis also included some new data, and for these reasons the clusters are slightly different to that reported in the paper (though often overlap). We believe we were able to get increased resolution with our new clustering, in particular finding that our genetic clusters correlated well with our POBI geographic labels (based on county of origin, in this case). These clusters (as in the original POBI paper) can contain individuals from multiple geographic regions, as you say. The labels we used (e.g. "Northwest England") are based on where the majority of samples come from."

ollie444
06-27-2017, 05:03 PM
Since we know Living DNA uses the POBI data for its British regions, I thought it would be good to post some maps of the POBI regions here and how many references they have for each population. I've also attached the totals in percentage form for each POBI region in case anyone wants to access or look over those.

Overall map and numbers for each population:
17227

Close up, England and Wales: [This one is of particular interest as it shows how the boundaries of Living DNA's "Northwest England" region were likely decided upon.]
17228

Close up, Scotland and Ireland:
17229

POBI map, less defined:
17231

Text document with the percentages for each POBI region:
17232

Alas, look at the giant hole to the north and west of Birmingham. A true tragedy reflected in my results.. :(

avalon
06-30-2017, 01:30 PM
That's what I really liked about the POBI paper. At the final level they had 54 clusters which provides real detail. At that level you can even see Cornwall split into West and East Cornwall which probably has some historical significance. The lime green triangles from Northern Ireland cluster most in Tyrone, so so you can clearly see the Gaelic connection here with the West of Scotland. Aberdeenshire also has two clusters which I think they should have kept separate in LivingDNA.

I don't know, I just think that LivingDNA made their results less accurate in certain places like SW Wales where they clearly just lumped all 3 clusters together to smooth the region. And at the same time I agree with Ollie that they then tried to split the large red English cluster out and I'm not sure they did this accurately, which is why some results are a bit off.

I can see why they did all this but in my mind, more detail is always better.

sktibo
06-30-2017, 04:25 PM
That's what I really liked about the POBI paper. At the final level they had 54 clusters which provides real detail. At that level you can even see Cornwall split into West and East Cornwall which probably has some historical significance. The lime green triangles from Northern Ireland cluster most in Tyrone, so so you can clearly see the Gaelic connection here with the West of Scotland. Aberdeenshire also has two clusters which I think they should have kept separate in LivingDNA.

I don't know, I just think that LivingDNA made their results less accurate in certain places like SW Wales where they clearly just lumped all 3 clusters together to smooth the region. And at the same time I agree with Ollie that they then tried to split the large red English cluster out and I'm not sure they did this accurately, which is why some results are a bit off.

I can see why they did all this but in my mind, more detail is always better.

I couldn't agree more.

greerpalmer
06-30-2017, 05:22 PM
Cornwall split into West and East Cornwall which probably has some historical significance
I would love to see this aspect since my Cornwall family trickles into Devon yet livingDNA shows now Devon influence in my genes. If I'm not mistaken, the Romans built a fortress at Bodmin and two just south Restormel Castle and Calstock essentially cutting Cornwall in half.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17311&d=1498843127

MacEochaidh
06-30-2017, 05:25 PM
Wow! Only 27 testers for the Northwest Scotland/North of Ireland and that's my top region. I actually have relations from the Outer Hebrides (Benbecula, South Uist), which they show as having tested, but the bulk must come from my Belfast family (three grandparents) who have roots in Tyrone, Derry, and Donegal. Yes. I know Donegal isn't included in this test, but it would also represent Ulster Gaelic ancestry.

Dibran
06-30-2017, 05:59 PM
Since we know Living DNA uses the POBI data for its British regions, I thought it would be good to post some maps of the POBI regions here and how many references they have for each population. I've also attached the totals in percentage form for each POBI region in case anyone wants to access or look over those.

Overall map and numbers for each population:
17227

Close up, England and Wales: [This one is of particular interest as it shows how the boundaries of Living DNA's "Northwest England" region were likely decided upon.]
17228

Close up, Scotland and Ireland:
17229

POBI map, less defined:
17231

Text document with the percentages for each POBI region:
17232

There one for Southern Europe? How many population references do they have? Size etc?

Kathlingram
07-01-2017, 01:18 PM
Wow! Only 27 testers for the Northwest Scotland/North of Ireland and that's my top region. I actually have relations from the Outer Hebrides (Benbecula, South Uist), which they show as having tested, but the bulk must come from my Belfast family (three grandparents) who have roots in Tyrone, Derry, and Donegal. Yes. I know Donegal isn't included in this test, but it would also represent Ulster Gaelic ancestry.

Donegal not included ? eeekkk... I am heavily Donegal still have 3rd cousin there who speak Gaelic..and Tyrone.. Carlow.. Kerry..no wonder I am only at about 30% ( although many of my Tyrone were newcomers from Plantation settlement)

ollie444
07-01-2017, 04:52 PM
Donegal not included ? eeekkk... I am heavily Donegal still have 3rd cousin there who speak Gaelic..and Tyrone.. Carlow.. Kerry..no wonder I am only at about 30% ( although many of my Tyrone were newcomers from Plantation settlement)

It will be included eventually.

MacEochaidh
07-01-2017, 05:20 PM
Donegal not included ? eeekkk... I am heavily Donegal still have 3rd cousin there who speak Gaelic..and Tyrone.. Carlow.. Kerry..no wonder I am only at about 30% ( although many of my Tyrone were newcomers from Plantation settlement)

Donegal was not included in the POBI Ulster testing, but may be part of the seven samples on the current LivingDNA Irish samples. I'm hoping that the new Irish samples will include several Donegal samples; including samples from Irish speaking areas (Gaeltachtai).

ollie444
07-01-2017, 07:10 PM
This is what they're aiming for: 17336

Kathlingram
07-01-2017, 09:18 PM
This is what they're aiming for: 17336

They are Chieftan desigatations? Ormond? Which is Tipperary and my Faunts ( maternal line) is from there ..They (L'enfant) were in ireland from the 1250s after Shropshire c. 1219, but definitely were I2a Sardinian.. All of "us" were and Norman politically.. I Admin the Fant Faunt Font group and am a CoAdmin ( not sure why..not real good with "Y") of the larger I2a group we belong to.. Ancient to be sure but NOT Irish in origin..
Not much native Irish not did they marry that way.. they at least tried to marry other "Normans" My Great Great was a British Soldier from South Tipp and his son born in Military barracks in Limerick..

Ulster I get but Ui Neill? Again ruling classes but many were not native Irish. My Tyrone Irish are mostly Scots was back.. Donegal now.. that is a bit of a mystery..Doohan was my Great GM and through her I match almost everyone who testes anywhere from Donegal..and tons who are still there..

I would think it would be hard to classify since some areas are very isolated geographically (Donegal) and inbred and others like Tipperary clearly not..

FionnSneachta
07-01-2017, 10:14 PM
They are Chieftan desigatations? Ormond? Which is Tipperary and my Faunts ( maternal line) is from there ..They (L'enfant) were in ireland from the 1250s after Shropshire c. 1219, but definitely were I2a Sardinian.. All of "us" were and Norman politically.. I Admin the Fant Faunt Font group and am a CoAdmin ( not sure why..not real good with "Y") of the larger I2a group we belong to.. Ancient to be sure but NOT Irish in origin..
Not much native Irish not did they marry that way.. they at least tried to marry other "Normans" My Great Great was a British Soldier from South Tipp and his son born in Military barracks in Limerick..

Ulster I get but Ui Neill? Again ruling classes but many were not native Irish. My Tyrone Irish are mostly Scots was back.. Donegal now.. that is a bit of a mystery..Doohan was my Great GM and through her I match almost everyone who testes anywhere from Donegal..and tons who are still there..

I would think it would be hard to classify since some areas are very isolated geographically (Donegal) and inbred and others like Tipperary clearly not..

I don't mind them doing it by chieftans since they were known by those names before counties were introduced. I'm surprised that they didn't stick with it for all of Ireland though. Connacht is just north and south when southern Connacht could have been called Hy Many or Uí Maine. The counties of Kildare, Laois and Offaly are just known as Kildare. What they're called doesn't bother me as long as they're accurate though. Here's a map that was in my history book of the different chieftains if you're interested.

17337

Kathlingram
07-01-2017, 11:02 PM
I don't mind them doing it by chieftans since they were known by those names before counties were introduced. I'm surprised that they didn't stick with it for all of Ireland though. Connacht is just north and south when southern Connacht could have been called Hy Many or Uí Maine. The counties of Kildare, Laois and Offaly are just known as Kildare. What they're called doesn't bother me as long as they're accurate though. Here's a map that was in my history book of the different chieftains if you're interested.

17337

Thanks.. Nice.. My mitoDNA Great Great is from Kenmare Kerry/West Cork..Lynch Sullivan McCarthy.. Kirwans from Carlow.. My Faunt line is Kildare also.. there is a "Fantstown" in both Limerick where Fantstown Castle exists from the 13c and Kildare.. they worked for the Norman kings.. Sir Walter L'enfant was an early Justiciar ( 1275) and in the 1550s some still held property in Kildare as well as Kilmallock Limerick..