PDA

View Full Version : Portuguese Y-DNA J1-M365 cluster



RCO
06-28-2017, 02:50 AM
We can observe a Portuguese, Galician-Portuguese or Western Iberian J1-M365 cluster. The cluster is exclusive of the Iberian Western Atlantic Façade and not found in any other Iberian region (Castile, Basque Country, Andalusia. Catalonia). There's a correlation between language and this Y-DNA cluster. There's also an Imperial distribution of the cluster because the haplotypes were found from Ourense-Galicia, Minho, Central Portugal, Algarve, Azores and Brazil. Most of the Portuguese haplotypes usually don't have 67 matches and are singletons found only in some regions. I think the Portuguese J1-M365 were present in the Portuguese Frontiers since the beggining of the Reino-Kingdom following the Portuguese conquests and colonization everywhere. We can find the same cluster at the former SMGF database and in YHRD.

Rasht Gilaki Iran is a 17/16 match with Mato Grosso do Sul, Brazil - In the Yfiler - YHRD

DYS456 15
DYS389I 13
DYS390 22
DYS389II 29
DYS458 18.2
DYS19 15
DYS385 (12,19 or 12,20)
DYS393 13
DYS391 10
DYS439 11
DYS635 21
DYS392 11
YGATAH4 10
DYS437 14
DYS438 10
DYS448 20

We can find 10 haplotypes at FTDNA
Probably we can have one subgroup with 391=11 and another one only found in the Azorean Island of Pico with 458=20

17251

In YFull tree we have FGC6064>FGC6031<Y19467
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/
We would need a full sequence of the Iranian Caspian cluster to understand the genetic distance in terms of SNPs. We don't know anything about the NGS Y-DNA Iranian basal J1 clusters.

J1 DYS388=13
06-28-2017, 08:02 AM
Is there anything of interest at http://www.semargl.me ?

RCO
06-28-2017, 12:29 PM
Nothing new at Semargl.
We can observe the last 1000 years with STR matches. We only have two NG Sequences at YFull - YF04781 and YF01554 formed 5500 ybp, TMRCA 1250 ybp. They have a distance of 8 at FTDNA 67 markers.
The Portuguese J1-M365 cluster is one of the biggest Portuguese clusters found in the last 1000 years (almost 0,5% of the total, a relatively big proportion for a recent cluster in a rare haplogroup in Iberia). This expansion can be explained by the expansion of the Christian Frontier, I think. People and haplotypes related to the military expansion of the Portuguese frontier (State, Language, Religion) in the Medieval Times could be distributed around the new conquered lands. That Portuguese specific J1-M365 is a kind of ethno-historical cluster associated only with the Portuguese Empire.
A recent archaelogical study is showing that relation in the frontiers. Tough times in the Al-Mansur (b. ca 938-d 1002), Almoravid and Almohad total wars.


Diet in a Templar town: Medieval Portuguese diet from
carbon and nitrogen stable isotope ratios
A. Curto1; P. Mahoney1; G. Fahy11 University of Kent
The aim of this study is to reconstruct medieval human diet in Tomar,
Portugal, using stable isotope analysis of bone collagen. Tomar's medieval
necropolis was used from the 11th to 16th centuries, a period in which
Portugal went through various socio-cultural and political changes; from the
Reconquista to civil war and the Age of Discoveries. Tomar was a Templar
town located on the main Portuguese route connecting the North of the
country to the limits of the Reconquista. Historical textual evidence
highlights differences in meat consumption in Templars compared to
individuals with similar social status. It is possible that these dietary
restrictions were reflected in the population in the form of angling and
warren rights, which were shared betweenthe Crown and the Military
Orders. Conversely, merchants, crafters and farmers participated actively
in the local army alongside knights, increasing their status and most likely
their access to similar food resources.In this study, carbon and nitrogen
stable isotope ratios from bone collagen were analysed. Forty skeletons
were sampled (20 males; 20 females) to investigate diet in this population
and possible dietary differences between males and females. Faunal
remains (herbivorous, carnivorous and omnivorous) were also analysed to
reconstruct a dietary baseline. This town's rich history makes it very
interesting for dietary reconstruction, shedding light upon medieval Military
Orders and their influence on the civil population.

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/115846/1/UKAS_abstract_book.pdf

Squad
07-13-2017, 02:27 AM
You really need to stop this 0.5% thing, that's just too high really, even in northern Portugal it reaches only 0.1% at best. There's no way J1-M365 is borne by 1 portuguese male out of 200. You've increased it almost ten-fold. Anyway, J1-M365 in Europe is a real mystery and we need that french and belgian samples to see whether the halogroup is really about 6kya old in Europe or not. Iranian samples are also a must for this analysis and I came wondering if the iberian haplotypes are more related to the iranian cluster rather than to the english one as this would favor a historical arrival.

RCO
07-13-2017, 03:21 AM
I have been observing FTDNA Ancestral matches for this cluster for almost ten years and the 0.5% has always been regular and constant, the Portuguese J1-M365 cluster is very interesting because we can find some haplotypes with Y-67 markers not showing in other Portuguese Y-67 matches with intermediary matches from the same cluster, what is showing a relatively recent star-like expansion for this rare haplogroup only in Portugal. The same rate (0.5%) also could be found with SMGF database and in some articles with Portuguese haplotypes. I agree with you that the Caspian, Northern Iranian haplotypes are closer to the Portuguese than the English haplotypes in terms of STR. I hope we can test (NGS-SNPS)one Iranian individual with the same modal haplotype.

Squad
07-13-2017, 08:13 AM
Yes the portuguese cluster is recent but that doesnt have to do with it being of recent arrival it could just be that it is the only surviving M365 line in Portugal, which wouldn't be surprising given the very low frequencies. I don't know why you keep insisting about the 0.5% thing when YHRD samples from mainland Portugal totalized more than 2,000 samples with absolutely no J1-M365 at all and I can link you to other studies with none of it either.

RCO
07-13-2017, 05:56 PM
There's always a margin of error in any samples. Depends on the subregional sampling fractions and locations, as well, depends on social structures.
I wrote that in 2008 and I still think it`s correct J1-M365 used to be J1b then:


domingo, 7 de dezembro de 2008
Y DNA haplotypes and frequencies. The Portuguese-Brazilian J1b case
How can we find if a haplotype is considered as “established” or “outsider” in a given population?
It’s a question of frequency, perhaps. If a haplotype with a recognized genetic motif is present in any reliable sample of the population then we can infer that the haplotype is well distributed homogeneously in the population in a certain frequency. Even small frequencies of the order of 0,1 % can be detected and recognized in the case of big samples (<500). My case study is the frequency of the rare, but clearly visible J1b M365+ haplotypes in the Brazilian and Portuguese population. This genetic signature can be easily identified with the DYS19=15, DYS=390=22, DYS393=13 and a J1 signal like 458.2 or 388=16 what is a most probable way to capture a J1b haplotype.
In every big Portuguese and Brazilian databases (FTDNA, YHRD, SMGF) I can find the mentioned J1b motif provisory named as the “J1b Alan Modal Haplotype” in the Portuguese and Brazilian DNA stock. The frequency of the Portuguese J1b STR/SNP in the Portuguese population is estimated in between 0,2-0,8% of the total. The Portuguese Y DNA contribution to the Brazilian population has been estimated in circa de 40% (Sérgio Pena: 2000) what means 5 millions of Portuguese Y DNA in Portugal and 40 millions in Brazil. A haplotype will be considered as an established haplotype in a population if it’s found in a regular frequency in a constant and homogeneous participation in any big sample of this population. That’s the case of the J1b haplotype.
The article “Haplotype diversity of 17 Y-chromosome STRs in Brazilians”, Pereira et al, Forensic Science International 171 (2007) 226–236, lists 481 Brazilian haplotypes and there’s one identified as J1b, the number HP 406 with the “Alan Modal Haplotype”: DYS19=15, DYS=390=22, DYS393=13, the 458.2 and the rare DYS385I/II 12-20. So, just like the FTDNA, YHRD, SMGF databases, this article also keeps the regular statistical frequency of 0,2% of the Brazilian J1b haplotype. The J1b haplotype participation in the Brazilian and Portuguese population must be related to its participation since the formation of the original stock of the Portuguese population during the “ethnogenesis age” of the creation of this distinct population organized around the Minho and Douro rivers 1500 years ago (Hispano-Romans, Suebis, Alans coalescence in the Minho-Coimbra area). That’s the same chronology of the formation of the Portuguese language as a distinct and organized language. The consequence of a distinct community organized as a distinct society with a specific language led to the creation of hierarchies, social stratifications and finally led to the creation of the independent Portuguese National State around the 12th century as a response to the Moor Almoravid and Almohad onslaught of the 11th century. In the last thousand years the Portuguese population had gone through two bottlenecks, one around the year 1000 AD with the Moor pressure and the other in the Thirty Years War (1630-1654) with the Castilian pressure in Iberia and the Dutch pressure in Brazil, in both cases the threats of annihilation of the autonomy and existence of this population in Europe and in America led to a situation of total war and a subsequent victory with a new demographic boom of the Portuguese-Brazilian population in new conquered territories. The original male population of the Entre Douro e Minho with a population of perhaps 30.000 Y DNA around the year 1000 AD has multiplied to a half a million in 1500 and to 45 millions nowadays. The Minho little population with few resources has been able to conquer Portugal and then conquer one of the world big territories in Brazil to become one of the world’s “Monster Country”. So the calculated total number of J1b’s haplotypes in the Portuguese-Brazilian population (from 0,2 to 0,8%) of the total population (45 millions) could be between 90.000 and 360.000. A single male, the J1b Western Iberian Genearch perhaps coming in the Alan invasion, was the founder of this lineage. Would it be possible to guess any kind of social status of his position after a thousand of years ? That’s a difficult question but somehow this Eastern Anatolian/Caucasian/Caspian “exotic” Y DNA could survive and thrive in a completely different place in the westernmost part of Western Europe, in times of war and destruction, in a very distant population very far way from the place of the original source and original habitat of this SNP and in a completely different hostile haplogroup environment. What I can say is that most probably this haplotype had entered the Portuguese stock before or just at the exact foundational moment of the ethnogenesis of the Portuguese population because it’s well rooted in some deep rural traditional places of the Minho and it is very well homogeneously distributed with a regular frequency in every big sample of the Portuguese and Brazilian population. The J1b haplotype was not observed in the recent article “The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula”. No Hispanic populations of Castilian, Catalan, Basque languages of Iberia and no Sephardic, Jew, Moor, Arab or North African population has presented this haplotype. The J1b M365+ is a Western Iberian-Portuguese-Brazilian phenomenon.

The American Journal of Human Genetics 04 December 2008
doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.11.007
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
Supplemental Data for M. Adams et al.
http://www.cell.com/AJHG/supplemental/S0002-9297(08)00592-2

Haplotype diversity of 17 Y-chromosome STRs in Brazilians .
Forensic Science International , Volume 171 , Issue 2 - 3 , Pages 226 - 236
R . Pereira , E . Monteiro , G . Hirschfeld , A . Wang , D . Grattapaglia
List of J1b haplotypes and candidates with the new Brazilian HP406 haplotype:
http://tinyurl.com/5bg4f4
Ricardo Costa de Oliveira
Postado por Ricardo Costa de Oliveira às 13:06 Nenhum comentário:

http://j1bm365.blogspot.com.br/2008/12/y-dna-haplotypes-and-frequencies.html?m=0

As of today 13/jul/17 we have 0.8% of J1-M365, four different haplotypes as a total of 535 Portuguese 67 markers haplotypes, 4 in a total of 535, with substantial distances at this level. I don`t remember to find any other exclusively Portuguese haplotype with 0.8% of the total in the same Ancestral Origins table with 67 markers with similar results. We still have another 67 markers kit not showing there, what would be more 0.2%, with a genetic distance of 8 in 67, so we have 5 Portuguese descendents J1-M365 Y-67 at FTDNA database right now, what is almost 1.0% in FTDNA`s Portuguese total. So we can compare with YHRD Portuguese Mainland and compensate the proportions to more or less 0.5. I think we have some local concentrations around the Atlantic Littoral close to Viana do Castelo, Barcelos and Braga.Of course that`s an Imperial cluster following the Portuguese Seaborne Empire.

17521

The J1-M365 world map
Up-to-dated J1-M365 Map
http://tinyurl.com/5owkuh

RCO
07-29-2017, 02:13 AM
A major breakthrough. For the first time at FTDNA one individual from the Caspian Sea or Northern Middle East, Northern Iran from this clade.
Now we can compare the Portuguese cluster with the Iranian and the Portuguese cluster is closer to the Iranian than the English individuals in terms of STR
The J-M365 Project ordered the Big Y test from the Iranian individual.

17792

17793

Grahamscy
07-29-2017, 04:09 AM
Awesome news !

RCO
07-29-2017, 09:35 AM
Yes, I have been waiting for several years for a FTDNA haplotype from that region, I could find some in SMGF, in YHRD and now we can investigate via FTDNA Big Y the historical connection between the Caspian Sea adjacencies and the Atlantic Façade. We can see how J1 is complex and diverse in Western Europe.

RCO
09-09-2017, 03:44 PM
Big Y results from FTDNA#669046, MDKA from Iran, Mazandaran, Caspian Sea. He is going to organize a new branch separating the Portuguese from the English groups.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y19467/
Of the 35 SNPs from J-Y19467 he is showing
19 SNPs Positive
16 SNPs Negative
Y19467+ Y19468- FGC5988- FGC5990+ FGC5992+ FGC6024+ FGC6025- FGC6026- FGC6032+ FGC6035- FGC6039+ FGC6040+ FGC6041+ FGC6047+ FGC6056- FGC6066+ FGC6075+ FGC6077- FGC6083- FGC6085- FGC6094+ FGC6095- FGC6097+ FGC6107+ FGC6109+ FGC6111- FGC6128+ FGC6132+ FGC6134- FGC6139+ FGC6147+ FGC6157- FGC6166- FGC6168- FGC8031-

The TMRCA between the Portuguese and the Iranian J1-Y19467 (FGC6035 * FGC6094 * FGC6040+32 SNPs formed 5500 ybp) should be more or less around 3000ybp, more or less around 1000 BC. Let's wait YFull analysis.
So the movement of the Portuguese J1-M365 was historical and not from the distant Neolithic and perhaps we can find other Iranian J1 branches from this group.

RCO
11-06-2017, 07:37 PM
YFull (5.07) has not calculated the TMRCA between the J1 FGC6064+ Y19467+ Iranian (YF11239) and Portuguese branches (YF01554 and YF04781) ! Only in the next version of the tree (5.08). I think the distance is going to be around 2500 ybp, so historical and not 6100 ybp because they still have not calculated the distance !. Y19467 has 26 SNPs (J-Y19467FGC6094 * FGC6040 * FGC6047* FGC6128 * FGC6039 * FGC6132 * FGC6097 * FGC6109 * FGC6107 * FGC5992 * FGC6032 * FGC6157 * Y19467 * FGC6139 * FGC6056 * FGC6025 * FGC6075 * FGC6134 * FGC6077 * FGC6066 * Y19468 * FGC5990 * FGC6166 * FGC6024 * FGC6147 * FGC6041") in common with FGC6035 and YFull has not included the new distance ! Let's remember my Brazilian sample YF01554 has been in Brazil for just 300ybp and the distance with the other available Portuguese sample YF04781 is 1250ybp, so before the creation of the Western Iberian Portuguese Kingdom, of course we don't have a closer Portuguese sample when my YF01554 line moved to Brazil (1250 to 300 ybp) in the same way we don't have a closer Iranian sample when they moved to Western Iberia, probably related with the Alanic movements from the Caspian Sea to Lusitania in the Fall of the Roman Empire.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/

We have another Flemish J1-FGC6064 M365+ in this recent article - Defining Y-SNP variation among the Flemish population (Western Europe) by full genome sequencing
Flemish j1 - FGC6064+
MMML010 21563544 A G / FGC6134 (A->G) +
MMML010 13976119 G T / FGC6056 (G->T) +

MMML010 21563544 A G / FGC6134 (A->G) +
22951621 FGC6157 (T->C) -
MMML010 23609522 C A / FGC6166 (C->A) +
23772065 FGC6168 (T->C) -
22233171 Y19468 -
22039672 FGC5988 (G->A) -
7622855 FGC6025 -
7649231 FGC6026 -
8291271 FGC6035 -
MMML010 13976119 G T / FGC6056 (G->T) + Babak +
15239840 FGC6077 (A->C) -
15728762 FGC6083 (C->T) -
15752167 FGC6085 (G->A) -
16632599 FGC6095 (T->G) -
17913993 FGC6111 (A->G) -
MMML010 2888678 A G / M365 (A->G) +

Regards

Squad
01-04-2018, 10:32 AM
Case closed I think : version 6.01 of Yfull has finally given the TMRCA estimate between portuguese and iranian J1-M365, giving it an age of 2400 years, in line with a historical scenario.

RCO
01-11-2018, 02:26 PM
Caspian-Caucasian Connection to the Westernmost Atlantic Peninsula. From the Persian Achaemenid Empire to the Portuguese Empire. Old Y-DNA J1–M365 and trail of ancient SNPs.

FGC6064 is a basal Y-DNA J1 branch probably native from regions around the Southwestern Caspian Sea and the Caucasus Mountains. FGC6064 is very ancient with 15000 years old estimated by YFull. The first distribution is close to those Northern Middle Eastern regions in Northern Iran and Eastern Anatolia at minor frequencies where no other haplogroup has a prevalent hegemony. We could observe only two organized clusters via STR analysis of YHRD and SMGF databases: Northern Iran and Portuguese Empire. We also can find some individual cases in England, the Persian Gulf, Anatolia and Belgium-Flanders.

J-Y19467 in YFull’s analysis estimated the temporal distance (TMRCA) between the Iranian and Portuguese-Brazilian clusters in 2400 years, so in the time frame of the Achaemenid Empire when the Ancient Iranian Peoples had a strong demographic growth in the Persian Empire and in adjacent regions.

J-FGC6035 - Single Burst Movement to Western Iberia – We can try to explain the existence of two geographically distant clusters with one historical singularity, the historical movement of the Iranic Alans via Continental Europe from the Caspian Sea to Lusitania in the Fall of the Roman Empire. The Alans joined the Suebi in Northwestern Iberia. History remembers facts and names associated with the Alans in Western Iberia. The Alans were the first to bring the idea of a warrior mounted aristocracy of knights in Iberia. The Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle, the first Western Iberian king to fight and be recorded as a model for several rulers in the History of the region. The Alans left several other remnants.
Reconquista –After the Islamic invasion led by Arabs and Berbers, the Northern Iberian Christian populations reorganized and fought back. We can observe only a few Galaico-Portuguese haplotypes and clusters distributed exclusively in Western Iberian and present from Northern Gallaecia, Galicia, the Minho to Central and Southern Portugal, moving afterwards to the New Ultramarine Conquistas, the Azores and Brazil. We still can find Alanic names in Portuguese Medieval Times, just like Mendo Alão, the Warlord from Bragança, that could or not be related to the Ancient Alans in Iberia. The demographic movement and pattern of the cluster in the Portuguese Empire can be explained by well established social positions in the Portuguese National State, Portuguese bureaucracy, navy and army, usually associated with literate and free landowners from the Minho. By the law of large numbers we can find individuals from this cluster at approximately 0.4% of the total Portuguese demographic stock, including the big Brazilian numbers.

Identifying regional Portuguese STR’s and SNP’s. Now we are going to have our first Big Y test from the Island of Pico, in the Azores, we already have detected a specific STR marker from the Island in the Y-37 modal from the main group and we are going to know the first specific Azorean SNPs from this lineage probably related to one of the first settler of the Azores.
One small but decisive component in the History of the Portuguese Empire.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/

Shamash
01-12-2018, 08:23 AM
Caspian-Caucasian Connection to the Westernmost Atlantic Peninsula. From the Persian Achaemenid Empire to the Portuguese Empire. Old Y-DNA J1–M365 and trail of ancient SNPs.

FGC6064 is a basal Y-DNA J1 branch probably native from regions around the Southwestern Caspian Sea and the Caucasus Mountains. FGC6064 is very ancient with 15000 years old estimated by YFull. The first distribution is close to those Northern Middle Eastern regions in Northern Iran and Eastern Anatolia at minor frequencies where no other haplogroup has a prevalent hegemony. We could observe only two organized clusters via STR analysis of YHRD and SMGF databases: Northern Iran and Portuguese Empire. We also can find some individual cases in England, the Persian Gulf, Anatolia and Belgium-Flanders.

J-Y19467 in YFull’s analysis estimated the temporal distance (TMRCA) between the Iranian and Portuguese-Brazilian clusters in 2400 years, so in the time frame of the Achaemenid Empire when the Ancient Iranian Peoples had a strong demographic growth in the Persian Empire and in adjacent regions.

J-FGC6035 - Single Burst Movement to Western Iberia – We can try to explain the existence of two geographically distant clusters with one historical singularity, the historical movement of the Iranic Alans via Continental Europe from the Caspian Sea to Lusitania in the Fall of the Roman Empire. The Alans joined the Suebi in Northwestern Iberia. History remembers facts and names associated with the Alans in Western Iberia. The Alans were the first to bring the idea of a warrior mounted aristocracy of knights in Iberia. The Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle, the first Western Iberian king to fight and be recorded as a model for several rulers in the History of the region. The Alans left several other remnants.
Reconquista –After the Islamic invasion led by Arabs and Berbers, the Northern Iberian Christian populations reorganized and fought back. We can observe only a few Galaico-Portuguese haplotypes and clusters distributed exclusively in Western Iberian and present from Northern Gallaecia, Galicia, the Minho to Central and Southern Portugal, moving afterwards to the New Ultramarine Conquistas, the Azores and Brazil. We still can find Alanic names in Portuguese Medieval Times, just like Mendo Alão, the Warlord from Bragança, that could or not be related to the Ancient Alans in Iberia. The demographic movement and pattern of the cluster in the Portuguese Empire can be explained by well established social positions in the Portuguese National State, Portuguese bureaucracy, navy and army, usually associated with literate and free landowners from the Minho. By the law of large numbers we can find individuals from this cluster at approximately 0.4% of the total Portuguese demographic stock, including the big Brazilian numbers.

Identifying regional Portuguese STR’s and SNP’s. Now we are going to have our first Big Y test from the Island of Pico, in the Azores, we already have detected a specific STR marker from the Island in the Y-37 modal from the main group and we are going to know the first specific Azorean SNPs from this lineage probably related to one of the first settler of the Azores.
One small but decisive component in the History of the Portuguese Empire.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC6064/

Congratulations Ricardo, your working hypothesis seems more and more sound! :)

RCO
08-09-2018, 10:19 PM
Now we have an Azorean specific subgroup in the Portuguese J1-M365 FGC6035 cluster with a new SNP BY82400 already present at FTDNA's haplotree. YFull could calculate the TMRCA of BY82400 probably related to the islands' settlements around 600 years more or less.

25130

lppt
01-13-2019, 12:12 AM
Hey there RCO! People told me that you could help me. You can read my post here

showthread dot php?16282-Guessing-my-haplogroup

So, how how do you think j1 entered Portugal? The alans maybe?!

Im new to all of this! btw are you portuguese too?

RCO
01-13-2019, 01:25 AM
Salve Amigo, Yes I read your post and I would recommend FTDNA Y-12 or Y-37. We can find different types of J1 in Portugal with different origins and if you can have your haplotype we can discover your haplogroup and branch. I am a Brazilian of Portuguese Colonial Ancestry (mostly).

lppt
01-13-2019, 01:33 AM
aaronbee2010 recommended me YSEQ. I already order it. It should arrive this week and i wil get my results the week after. Do you now how deep the cheaper test is? M267 (15$). Will i get enough info or just confirmation that im j1?

RCO
01-13-2019, 01:47 AM
The M267 test will only confirm that you are J1. You can also try the J1-M267 Superclade Panel
http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=30693

lppt
01-13-2019, 01:56 AM
Thank you! I'll get back here as soon as i get my results back. If im j1, i will do that one after ;)

lppt
02-16-2019, 02:50 AM
Hi there again! YSEQ confirmed that my haplogroup is indeed J1. This will be enough for the time being. Later i will probably do the superclade panel.

RCO, any tips? How my ancestors got here? I was messing around with GEDmatch eurogenes calculator (k15) and using the 1 population approximation i get:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.038893
2 Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.318249
3 Spanish_Murcia @ 5.401530
4 Portuguese @ 6.008474
5 Spanish_Extremadura @ 6.337683
6 Spanish_Cantabria @ 6.359638
7 Spanish_Valencia @ 6.631322
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.796769
9 Spanish_Aragon @ 7.572393
10 Spanish_Galicia @ 7.623261
11 Spanish_Andalucia @ 7.942052
12 Southwest_French @ 8.163194
13 French @ 11.965259
14 North_Italian @ 12.580024
15 South_Dutch @ 16.746471
16 French_Basque @ 17.929632
17 Tuscan @ 19.652576
18 Southwest_English @ 19.964258
19 West_German @ 20.152908
20 Southeast_English @ 21.303135

Its safe to assume that my ancestors came from the Caucasus, by land (or maybe boat?), visited northern Italy, southern France, entered Iberia through northern Spain, finally reaching Portugal?

RCO
02-16-2019, 02:42 PM
Very good ! If you can find your specific subgroup we can elaborate hypothesis about your Y-DNA origins. You can try FTDNA or a superclade panel !

jeanL
03-01-2019, 01:44 PM
I just tested my maternal uncle on 23andme and my maternal grandfather's haplogroup turned out to be J1-Z2215, or J-CTS5368. My maternal grandfather's father was born out-of-wedlock in 1880s, and his surname Perez is his mother's surname. From what my grandfather knew, the surname of his father's father was Mendez, which is Spanish but I think ultimately can also be of Portuguese extraction.

Ruderico
03-01-2019, 01:50 PM
I just tested my maternal uncle on 23andme and my maternal grandfather's haplogroup turned out to be J1-Z2215, or J-CTS5368. My maternal grandfather's father was born out-of-wedlock in 1880s, and his surname Perez is his mother's surname. From what my grandfather knew, the surname of his father's father was Mendez, which is Spanish but I think ultimately can also be of Portuguese extraction.

It was common for names ending in -es to be written as -ez in the past. I saw quite a few of my paternal ancestors being "Rodriguez", but the oldest entries were written as "Rodrigues" (or just shortened to Roiz)

RCO
03-01-2019, 02:44 PM
I just tested my maternal uncle on 23andme and my maternal grandfather's haplogroup turned out to be J1-Z2215, or J-CTS5368. My maternal grandfather's father was born out-of-wedlock in 1880s, and his surname Perez is his mother's surname. From what my grandfather knew, the surname of his father's father was Mendez, which is Spanish but I think ultimately can also be of Portuguese extraction.

If he can test Y-12 or Y-37 or the SNPs we can guess his J1 clade.

RCO
07-06-2019, 12:33 PM
I have a new FDNA 67/7 match from the Canary Islands. This new individual is equidistant from all other Portuguese and Brazilian branches. I read that the Portuguese and Galician were a very important component in the first Canarian settlers, so I guess we have another Western Iberian branch formed in the Reconquista an in the seaborne moving frontiers of the Iberian Empires.

konian lusitanum
10-05-2019, 05:37 AM
ho great , give me a hand to find the origins of mine too it is rare too , i can't see someone matches that sort of j1a- cts5368, take a look at your font of information to see if there is anything related to that type of haplogroup

konian lusitanum
10-05-2019, 05:41 AM
that is my haplogroup gees , are you from Galicia ?

RCO
10-17-2019, 12:19 AM
We have another match between one of the Portuguese members of the cluster and a Northern Mesopotamian Iraqi Kurd from Erbil (Ancient Arbela) - Barzani Kurd - FTDNA #554451
He has only 12 markers and also tested positive to FGG6064+ and his only match is with the Northern Portuguese individual. An ancient Iranian tribe, the Sagartians from the Caspian Sea settled in Erbil, in any case that's another association of the Portuguese J1- M365, FGC6064, FGC6035 cluster with ancient Iranian peoples. We are going to upgrade the results of this individual.

RCO
10-06-2020, 11:06 PM
Now the Kurd from Erbil (Ancient Arbela) has 37 markers and no match with 25 or 37, so he is equidistant to the Iranian from Mazandaran Big Y tested and to the Portuguese cluster with several Big Y tested. Around 2400 ybp the clade expanded probably associated with the creation of the Achaemenid Empire around 500 BC and after that the Portuguese subgroup expanded associated with the creation of the Portuguese Medieval County and Kingdom around 800/1100 AD. Now we should try to test a Big Y with the Kurd from Erbil and we still have another Kakai from Kirkuk, Iraq in our group. To investigate and understand my own J1 branch I had to study ancient minor-Iranian ethnicties in Northern Iraq and Mesopotamia and I would never guess before genetic genealogy that they were our distant lineage's cousins but we had completely different geopolitical destinies.

RCO
04-19-2021, 10:28 PM
Now the Kurd from Erbil (554451 - Barzani) has been reclassified as J1-FGC5989 in FTDNA according to his J1 - M267v3 SNP Pack. FGC5989 is a downstream SNP of our lineage and if he had a BIG Y he would be close to the bifurcation of the Portuguese and Northern Iranian clades around 2500 ybp, probably in the Northern Iranian branch. I saw another Iranian J1-M365 in FTDNA database with 12 STR-markers (566756) but no contact. We have a contrast because the Portuguese cluster is ethnically homogeneous and pretty well connected to each other in a form of a starlike and branching since the early years of the Reconquista in Northern Portugal and the most distant and isolated Brazilian-Portuguese (265306) of the STR-cluster is not matching any other Brazilian-Portuguese in his 12/25/37/67 STR markers, but he is matching (12/1) another distant individual from the Caspian Sea in Baku, no contact but that's a fact that they were always related to the Caspian Sea as Gilakis and Mazandaranis. Clades like ours are trackers of the ancient Iranian peoples and movements. We have a common ancestor at the beginning of the Achaemenid Empire, around 2500 ybp, somewhere in the Iranosphere or very close.
The Portuguese cluster is associated to the growth of the Portuguese Medieval War Frontier, I am investigating the Y-DNA lineages of the Western Iberian Christian Frontier from the Kingdom of the Suebi/Regnum Suevorum, Vandalorum, Alanorum created with the arrival of the Suebis, Alans and Vandals in NW Iberia (400-500), to the County of Portucale/Condado Portucalense (800-1000) and the creation and consolidation of the Portuguese Kingdom (1100-1200) an ethno-historical warlike State, Portugal was the most identitarian of the Iberian polities with a single language: Portuguese, a native language born in the Minho around Braga, one religion with local religious centers like the Archbishopric of Braga and later Alcobaça, one culture and a relatively homogeneous Christian Portuguese population absorbing others, the model of the first Western European National State with the same Medieval Frontiers and the first modern European Seaborne Empire in four Continents, Europe, Africa, Asia and America, "the first on which the sun never sets". J1-M365>FGC6035 was one of the mainstream Cristãos Velhos lineages of this formation, expanding from the Minho with lineages born, settled and still living in that region who expanded on the warlike frontiers of the Portuguese Kingdom and first Seaborne Empire. That's a very ancient Iranian Mesolithic Y-DNA lineage from the Caspian Sea and Northern Middle East with a Medieval Portuguese branch in Western Atlantic Iberia and in modern Brazil.

Iyyovi
04-20-2021, 07:55 PM
That's a very ancient Iranian Mesolithic Y-DNA lineage from the Caspian Sea and Northern Middle East with a Medieval Portuguese branch in Western Atlantic Iberia and in modern Brazil.

Great post and great research effort, RCO. I've been following your research of J1-M365 with great interest and I wish you all possible success.