PDA

View Full Version : Living DNA & FTDNA Y Haplogroup Assignment Issue



ajc347
06-28-2017, 07:38 PM
Well, what an interesting evening it has been tonight in respect of my Living DNA Y haplogroup assignment.

When I received my results back in March, I was assigned a haplogroup of L151 and it was commented upon on an earlier thread that this was quite high up the phylogenetic tree. After I queried this with Living DNA and, following advice from another forum member, asked whether certain SNP's had been tested for. They subsequently confirmed that my test was negative for S21/U106, P312/S116, A8051 and CTS4528/S1200.

After testing at YSEQ indicated that I was negative for FGC37100, I subsequently ordered the R1b - L51xP312xU106 SNP Pack in an attempt to try and narrow things down further.

Imagine my surprise this evening when the results of my FTDNA test arrived and they indicated a P312 positive result. Something is clearly not right and I'm asking both companies to re-examine their results as one of them has clearly got the result wrong. I'll more than likely do a separate confirmatory test for P312 at YSEQ as well just to make sure.

As you can imagine, I'm not a particularly happy bunny at the moment and it will certainly be interesting to see how this issue pans out and gets resolved.

A Norfolk L-M20
06-28-2017, 08:48 PM
Living DNA screwed mine up. They gave me L1a2a (L-M20 M22 M2481 L1307 M2398).

However, I'm a Big Y tester with further analysis at Yfull and FGC, and I knew that I was L1b2c (L-M20 M22 SK1412 SK1414 FGC51036).

Look at those two. They took it down the wrong route and carried on a couple of SNPs.


They apologised, admitted their mistake - but then, simply backed it all the way to L1 (L-M22). High up in the phylogenetic tree? Yfull dates M22 to formed 23200 ybp, TMRCA 18600 ybp.

That's where Living DNA have since left it.

ArmandoR1b
06-29-2017, 03:08 AM
LivingDNA initially gave sktibo a false positive for M153 but later corrected him to another SNP downstream from DF27. I wonder if his raw dna file has P312 in it. If not then LivingDNA might not test P312. I have never heard of YSEQ providing a false positive.

sktibo
06-29-2017, 04:11 AM
LivingDNA initially gave sktibo a false positive for M153 but later corrected him to another SNP downstream from DF27. I wonder if his raw dna file has P312 in it. If not then LivingDNA might not test P312. I have never heard of YSEQ providing a false positive.

I can check that for you right now, on a side note I got my Geno 2.0 today and it also gave me R-Z195, the same as Living DNA's corrected haplogroup. Let me dig up my LDNA data here..

AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2
CTS10083
CTS10085/M1250/PF5948
CTS10149/PF6490/V3993
CTS10168/M1149
CTS10362/M5770
CTS10663/M788
CTS10834
CTS109/M8948
CTS11468/PF6520
CTS11827/M5816
CTS11948/PF6522/PF6522
CTS11985/PF6523
CTS12028/M1272/PF5977
CTS1217/M5597
CTS125/M5576
CTS1274/FGC34/PF6422
CTS1738/FGC55/PF6449
CTS196/PF5845
CTS1996/M5651
CTS2134
CTS2254/M3680/PF2657
CTS2664/PF6454
CTS2908/M666/PF6123
CTS3123/M670
CTS3135/M1206/PF5898
CTS3229/M672/PF6036/YSC0001265
CTS3358/M1210/PF5900
CTS3460/M5670
CTS3475/PF6456/V2714
CTS3622/PF6037
CTS3941/CTS3941/PF2135/PF2135
CTS4244/PF6257/YSC0001279
CTS4443/M3696/PF2677
CTS4944/M1218/PF5909
CTS5318/M5690
CTS5418/M1222/PF5912
CTS543/M5584
CTS5577/PF6464
CTS5808/M1226/PF5915
CTS5815/M696
CTS5884/M1228/PF5917
CTS6135/M3708/PF2693
CTS6203
CTS623/PF6419
CTS6252/M5700
CTS6378
CTS6800/M5713
CTS7295/PF848
CTS7604/M1235/PF5928
CTS7659/FGC50/PF6470
CTS7904/PF6471
CTS7933/M5728
CTS7941/PF6472
CTS8148
CTS8243/M5736
CTS8436/PF6259
CTS8591
CTS8612/PF6260
CTS8626/M1239/PF5934
CTS8627/PF6478
CTS8665/PF6479
CTS8728/L1063/PF6480/S13
CTS894/PF6420/YSC0001293
CTS9005/M741
CTS9014/M5750
CTS9018/PF6484
CTS9162/L1185/M1241/PF5937
CTS9458/M5753
CTS9556/M5758
CTS9722/M5762
CTS9972/PF6261
E101/M12191/Y1271
F102/M625/PF6116
F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295
F115/M1189/PF5870
F1167/PF4516/YSC0001296
F1320/M3657/PF2621
F1381/PF4520
F154/M636
F1704/M3675/PF2651
F1714/F1714/M3677/PF2653/PF2653
F1767/M3683/PF2660
F1794/PF6455
F1857/P337/PF5901/Page83
F2075/PF2685
F2211
F2434
F2837/M3726/PF2722
F29/L821/M5579/PF5857
F295/M685
F2993/M3737/PF2732/V3940
F313/M1219
F33/M603/PF6013
F332/M1224/PF5914
F3335/M3754/PF2758
F3358/PF4611/YSC0001316
F3424/M1489
F344/M1227/PF5916
F356/M703/PF5919
F359/M1229/PF5920
F3689/M2682/PF3495/Y2571
F370/M708/Y479
F3703
F4/M1183/PF5991
F459/Y482
F47/M607/Y472
F506/M1243/PF5940
F524/M1248/PF5945
F536/M1251/PF5949
F63/M614/PF6016
F640/M1271/PF5975
F671/M1274/PF5981
F69/L773/PF6421/YSC0000276
F83/M1185/PF5861
F847
F91/PF5862/V231
F929/M578/PF3494/S6378
F93/M621/PF6114
FGC33/PF6469
FGC41/M12190/Y108
IMS-JST022455
L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224
L1347/M792/PF6077/YSC0000233
L1348/PF6521/YSC0000238
L1350/PF6505/YSC0000225
L1351/PF6528/YSC0000240
L1353/PF6489/YSC0000294
L15/M523/PF3492/S137
L16/M522/PF3493/S138
L23/PF6534/S141
L248.3/M705.3
L265/PF6431
L407/PF6252
L468/M3703/PF2689
L482/PF6427
L483
L500/PF6481
L502/PF6487
L506/PF6267
L51/M412/PF6536/S167
L58
L726
L741/PF5960/YSC0000297
L747/M702/PF5918/YSC0000287
L752/PF6483
L754/PF6269/YSC0000022
L757/PF6488/V3721/YSC0000293
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286
L761/PF6258/YSC0000266
L762/PF6450/YSC0000258
L768/PF5976/YSC0000274
L779/PF5907/YSC0000251
L781/PF5875/YSC0000255
L82/PF5972
L822/PF6247/YSC0000075
L875/M706/PF6131/YSC0000288
L882/M3749/PF2745
L963
L970/PF1065
M10372.1/ZS6696.1
M1109
M1160/PF5958
M11760
M1186/PF5864
M1187/PF5865
M1188/PF5869
M1190/PF5871
M1192/PF5872
M1199/PF5886
M1216/PF5908
M1221/P331/PF5911
M1240/PF5936
M1259/PF5956
M1260/PF5957
M1263/PF5964
M1264
M1265/PF5965
M173/P241/Page29
M207/Page37/UTY2
M213/P137/PF2673/Page38
M251/M9122
M2684/PF3497/YSC0001319
M269/PF6517
M2696/PF3500
M299
M306/PF6147/S1
M343/PF6242
M3637/PF2589/V186
M3639/PF2591
M3751/PF2748
M3752/PF2749
M415/PF6251
M45/PF5962
M5577/PF1413/V189
M5608/PF258
M5642
M5650
M5682
M5691/PF779
M5695/PF1417/V41
M5708
M5717/PF844
M5737/PF892
M5738
M5747
M5760
M5781/PF1040
M5788
M5809/PF1237
M5822
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201
M74/N12/PF5963
M760/Y506
M764/PF5953
M799
M8952
M8956
M8959
M8961
M8980
M8986
M8999
M9009
M9015
M9017
M9020
M9025
M9026
M9028
M9032
M9034
M9038
M9042
M9045
M9054
M9056
M9057
M9064
M9066
M9115
M9129
M9156
M9169
M9194.3
M9200
M9215
M9218
M9223
M9231
M9237
M9246
M9252
M9253
M9257
M9261
M9280
M9283
M9286
M9288/PF985
M9292
M9293
M9316/PF1034
M9317
M9318
M9328/PF1053
M9338
M9341
M9348
M9349
M9352
M9356
M9359
M9380
M9387
M9405
M9406
P105/P105
P128/PF5504
P131/PF5493
P132/PF5480
P135/PF2741
P139
P140
P149
P160/PF2618
P161
P187/PF2632
P224/PF6050
P225
P226/PF5879
P228/PF5927
P229/PF6019
P230/PF5925
P232
P233
P235/PF5946
P236
P237/PF5873
P238/PF6115
P239/PF5930
P242/PF6113
P243/PF5874
P244/PF5896
P245/PF6117
P280
P281/PF5941
P282/PF5932
P283/PF5966
P284
P285
P286/PF6136
P295/PF5866/S8
P297/PF6398
P310/PF6546/S129
P311/PF6545/S128
P312/PF6547/S116
P84.1
PF1016
PF1096
PF2608
PF5938
PF5982
PF6246
PF6249
PF6263
PF6265
PF6270
PF6271
PF6272
PF6399/S10
PF6409
PF6425
PF6426
PF6429
PF6430
PF6432
PF6434
PF6435
PF6451
PF6463
PF6466/YSC0000194
PF6482/YSC0000203
PF6485/S3
PF6495
PF6497/YSC0000219
PF6498
PF6506
PF6507
PF6524
PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191
PF7372
S227/Z195
S349.1
S484/Z48
SRY10831.1
V153
V1580/Z3965
Z11010
Z11892
Z11910
Z11916
Z1759
Z18049.2
Z1853
Z21721
Z3225
Z3339.2
Z40386
Z40387
Z40389
Z40392
Z40393
Z40394
Z40395

ajc347
06-29-2017, 02:33 PM
After one email and a very friendly, pleasant and helpful telephone call with a customer services supervisor, Living DNA have asked their bioinformatics department to look into the result anomaly further. It will take a bit of time (due to annual leave etc) but at least they're going to look into it. One thing Living DNA do get top marks for us their customer service. It really is second to none. ��

ArmandoR1b
06-30-2017, 12:07 PM
After one email and a very friendly, pleasant and helpful telephone call with a customer services supervisor, Living DNA have asked their bioinformatics department to look into the result anomaly further. It will take a bit of time (due to annual leave etc) but at least they're going to look into it. One thing Living DNA do get top marks for us their customer service. It really is second to none. ��
I wonder if LivingDNA will refund you the cost of the Yseq test if they admit to making a mistake. The error is almost definitely on LivingDNA's side.

ajc347
06-30-2017, 05:05 PM
I wonder if LivingDNA will refund you the cost of the Yseq test if they admit to making a mistake. The error is almost definitely on LivingDNA's side.

If it does prove to be their error (as I suspect it might well be), I would hope that would be the least that they would do. I would also hope that they would make a financial contribution towards the extra cash I've spent try to track down my Haplogroup based upon the information they have provided me with, and that they would also test for SNP's downstream of P312 and provide me with a more realistic result.

However, based upon the nightmare that Paul (Norfolk L-M20) experienced and has described above, I do, though, suspect that it is likely that they will either state that there is no error on their part, leave my current Haplogroup unchanged at L151 (whether they admit to an error or not), or simply change the Haplogroup to P312 and not test any further. Whilst, I really hope that this isn't the case, the more I think about it the more pessimistic I feel. :(

Pylsteen
06-30-2017, 05:18 PM
I wonder if LivingDNA will refund you the cost of the Yseq test if they admit to making a mistake. The error is almost definitely on LivingDNA's side.


This would be nice, however, it can also be that your later Yseq test will be explained as your own voluntary choice in which they have no part, even though you was led by their results. I'm no lawyer though.

ajc347
07-05-2017, 06:49 PM
YSEQ have now confirmed me as being P312+, so it would appear that FTDNA were 100% right in reporting this result and that the error clearly lies with Living DNA.

ajc347
07-07-2017, 09:04 PM
Living DNA have now re-run my test and have now confirmed me as being P312+.

Whilst my maternal Haplogroup is unchanged at V15a, my autosomal results have changed again and have been an improvement over the previous results (which were already pretty accurate). :)

A Norfolk L-M20
07-07-2017, 09:16 PM
Living DNA have now re-run my test and have now confirmed me as being P312+.

Whilst my maternal Haplogroup is unchanged at V15a, my autosomal results have changed again and have been an improvement over the previous results (which were already pretty accurate). :)

Thanks for the update. I've learned to accept that my Y DNA is just a little too exotic for SNP chip testing. I'm still stuck at L1 some 19,000 years ago. However, when 23andme recently moved me onto their NE, they also back tracked it to L1 (L-M22).

ajc347
07-07-2017, 09:32 PM
It doesn't sound like you've had too much luck with either company Paul, and I really can't understand why they've both backed you up to L1. :(

It just doesn't make any sense to me and does show how limited some of these products actually are, despite marketing claims to the contrary.

I'm really pleased that I chose, after receiving some sterling advice from fellow forum members, to go down the FTDNA and YSEQ route and tested for P312 at both companies, otherwise this issue would never have come to light and I would still be trying to track down a Haplogroup parallel to P312 rather than one under it.

MacEochaidh
07-08-2017, 12:07 AM
Living DNA gives me R-L21 with subclade RZ2976 which I would write as R1b-L21 >DF49>Z2976.

FTDNA Big Y gives me R1b>L21>DF49>DF23>ZP149>ZP171.

So LivingDNA was close, but not as far down the DF49 tree. DF23 is two SNPs above M222.

Dibran
07-08-2017, 02:11 AM
Living DNA gives me R-L21 with subclade RZ2976 which I would write as R1b-L21 >DF49>Z2976.

FTDNA Big Y gives me R1b>L21>DF49>DF23>ZP149>ZP171.

So LivingDNA was close, but not as far down the DF49 tree. DF23 is two SNPs above M222.

As i am a laymen in these things, would you be able to tell if LivingDNA took the wrong course with my route?

I am classed as R1a-Z283

Positive for:

AM00847/AMM008/B65
AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2
CTS10083
CTS10085/M1250/PF5948
CTS10168/M1149
CTS10362/M5770
CTS109/M8948
CTS10946/M5804
CTS12028/M1272/PF5977
CTS1217/M5597
CTS196/PF5845
CTS1996/M5651
CTS2229/PF6254
CTS2908/M666/PF6123
CTS3123/M670
CTS3135/M1206/PF5898
CTS3199/M5455/PF1649
CTS3229/M672/PF6036/YSC0001265
CTS3358/M1210/PF5900
CTS3460/M5670
CTS3941/CTS3941/PF2135/PF2135
CTS4076/Z1011
CTS4443/M3696/PF2677
CTS4944/M1218/PF5909
CTS5318/M5690
CTS5808/M1226/PF5915
CTS5815/M696
CTS5884/M1228/PF5917
CTS6135/M3708/PF2693
CTS6203
CTS6252/M5700
CTS626
CTS647
CTS6948/M1231/PF5922
CTS7604/M1235/PF5928
CTS8243/M5736
CTS8626/M1239/PF5934
CTS9005/M741
CTS9014/M5750
CTS9162/L1185/M1241/PF5937
CTS9556/M5758
CTS9679
CTS9722/M5762
CTS9862
F102/M625/PF6116
F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295
F115/M1189/PF5870
F1167/PF4516/YSC0001296
F1320/M3657/PF2621
F154/M636
F1704/M3675/PF2651
F1714/F1714/M3677/PF2653/PF2653
F1767/M3683/PF2660
F1857/P337/PF5901/Page83
F2075/PF2685
F2142/PF2688
F2211
F2837/M3726/PF2722
F29/L821/M5579/PF5857
F295/M685
F2993/M3737/PF2732/V3940
F313/M1219
F33/M603/PF6013
F332/M1224/PF5914
F3335/M3754/PF2758
F3358/PF4611/YSC0001316
F3424/M1489
F344/M1227/PF5916
F356/M703/PF5919
F359/M1229/PF5920
F3692/M3650
F370/M708/Y479
F459/Y482
F47/M607/Y472
F506/M1243/PF5940
F521/M1247/PF5944
F524/M1248/PF5945
F536/M1251/PF5949
F63/M614/PF6016
F640/M1271/PF5975
F671/M1274/PF5981
F847
F91/PF5862/V231
F93/M621/PF6114
IMS-JST022455
L120/M516/PF6236
L122/M448/PF6237
L1347/M792/PF6077/YSC0000233
L145/M449/PF6175
L146/M420/PF6229
L15/M523/PF3492/S137
L16/M522/PF3493/S138
L248.3/M705.3
L449/PF6223
L457/PF6191
L58
L62/M513/PF6200
L63/M511/PF6203
L726
L741/PF5960/YSC0000297
L747/M702/PF5918/YSC0000287
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286
L768/PF5976/YSC0000274
L779/PF5907/YSC0000251
L781/PF5875/YSC0000255
L82/PF5972
L875/M706/PF6131/YSC0000288
L882/M3749/PF2745
L963
M10372.1/ZS6696.1
M1109
M1160/PF5958
M11760
M1186/PF5864
M1187/PF5865
M1188/PF5869
M1190/PF5871
M1192/PF5872
M1216/PF5908
M1221/P331/PF5911
M1240/PF5936
M1259/PF5956
M1260/PF5957
M1264
M1265/PF5965
M173/P241/Page29
M207/Page37/UTY2
M2461
M251/M9122
M2684/PF3497/YSC0001319
M2696/PF3500
M306/PF6147/S1
M3637/PF2589/V186
M3639/PF2591
M3751/PF2748
M3752/PF2749
M417
M45/PF5962
M459/PF6235
M5106/PF2497
M512/PF6239
M515
M5650
M5682
M5691/PF779
M5695/PF1417/V41
M5708
M5737/PF892
M5781/PF1040
M5788
M5809/PF1237
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201
M74/N12/PF5963
M760/Y506
M764/PF5953
M799
M8961
M8980
M8983
M8999
M9009
M9015
M9017
M9020
M9025
M9028
M9037
M9038
M9042
M9045
M9054
M9056
M9064
M9066
M9110
M9129
M9156
M9169
M9194.3
M9200
M9215
M9223
M9231
M9246
M9252
M9253
M9257
M9261
M9283
M9286
M9288/PF985
M9292
M9317
M9328/PF1053
M9341
M9348
M9349
M9380
M9387
M9405
M9406
P105/P105
P128/PF5504
P131/PF5493
P132/PF5480
P135/PF2741
P139
P140
P149
P160/PF2618
P161
P187/PF2632
P224/PF6050
P225
P226/PF5879
P228/PF5927
P229/PF6019
P230/PF5925
P232
P233
P235/PF5946
P237/PF5873
P238/PF6115
P239/PF5930
P242/PF6113
P243/PF5874
P244/PF5896
P245/PF6117
P280
P281/PF5941
P282/PF5932
P283/PF5966
P284
P285
P295/PF5866/S8
P84.1
PF1016
PF1096
PF2608
PF5938
PF5982
PF6217/S339/Z283
PF6234/Page65.2/SRY10831.2/SRY1532.2
PF7372
Page7
S224/Z645
S484/Z48
V153
V1580/Z3965
Z11010
Z11892
Z11910
Z11916
Z12981
Z15942
Z1759
Z18049.2
Z19760
Z21885
Z3225
Z3236
Z3339.2
Z3604
Z3701
Z3704
Z40386
Z40389
Z40392
Z40393
Z40395
Z4692
Z6007


Negative for:

M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

17445

Gandhara
07-08-2017, 02:26 AM
SNP testing has its limitations. No Ancestry test can pinpoint your ancestry with 100 percent accuracy. There will always be discrepancies and it is highly unlikely that two companies can give u the same terminal SNP. This is my take on it.

GTC
07-08-2017, 02:34 AM
Living DNA's Y SNP testing isn't very deep in my experience. It reports me as R1b-Z8. I have tested way downstream from Z8 via Big Y, but at least they got that right.

MacEochaidh
07-08-2017, 04:54 AM
As i am a laymen in these things, would you be able to tell if LivingDNA took the wrong course with my route?

I am classed as R1a-Z283

Positive for:

AM00847/AMM008/B65
AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2
CTS10083
CTS10085/M1250/PF5948
CTS10168/M1149
CTS10362/M5770
CTS109/M8948
CTS10946/M5804
CTS12028/M1272/PF5977
CTS1217/M5597
CTS196/PF5845
CTS1996/M5651
CTS2229/PF6254
CTS2908/M666/PF6123
CTS3123/M670
CTS3135/M1206/PF5898
CTS3199/M5455/PF1649
CTS3229/M672/PF6036/YSC0001265
CTS3358/M1210/PF5900
CTS3460/M5670
CTS3941/CTS3941/PF2135/PF2135
CTS4076/Z1011
CTS4443/M3696/PF2677
CTS4944/M1218/PF5909
CTS5318/M5690
CTS5808/M1226/PF5915
CTS5815/M696
CTS5884/M1228/PF5917
CTS6135/M3708/PF2693
CTS6203
CTS6252/M5700
CTS626
CTS647
CTS6948/M1231/PF5922
CTS7604/M1235/PF5928
CTS8243/M5736
CTS8626/M1239/PF5934
CTS9005/M741
CTS9014/M5750
CTS9162/L1185/M1241/PF5937
CTS9556/M5758
CTS9679
CTS9722/M5762
CTS9862
F102/M625/PF6116
F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295
F115/M1189/PF5870
F1167/PF4516/YSC0001296
F1320/M3657/PF2621
F154/M636
F1704/M3675/PF2651
F1714/F1714/M3677/PF2653/PF2653
F1767/M3683/PF2660
F1857/P337/PF5901/Page83
F2075/PF2685
F2142/PF2688
F2211
F2837/M3726/PF2722
F29/L821/M5579/PF5857
F295/M685
F2993/M3737/PF2732/V3940
F313/M1219
F33/M603/PF6013
F332/M1224/PF5914
F3335/M3754/PF2758
F3358/PF4611/YSC0001316
F3424/M1489
F344/M1227/PF5916
F356/M703/PF5919
F359/M1229/PF5920
F3692/M3650
F370/M708/Y479
F459/Y482
F47/M607/Y472
F506/M1243/PF5940
F521/M1247/PF5944
F524/M1248/PF5945
F536/M1251/PF5949
F63/M614/PF6016
F640/M1271/PF5975
F671/M1274/PF5981
F847
F91/PF5862/V231
F93/M621/PF6114
IMS-JST022455
L120/M516/PF6236
L122/M448/PF6237
L1347/M792/PF6077/YSC0000233
L145/M449/PF6175
L146/M420/PF6229
L15/M523/PF3492/S137
L16/M522/PF3493/S138
L248.3/M705.3
L449/PF6223
L457/PF6191
L58
L62/M513/PF6200
L63/M511/PF6203
L726
L741/PF5960/YSC0000297
L747/M702/PF5918/YSC0000287
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286
L768/PF5976/YSC0000274
L779/PF5907/YSC0000251
L781/PF5875/YSC0000255
L82/PF5972
L875/M706/PF6131/YSC0000288
L882/M3749/PF2745
L963
M10372.1/ZS6696.1
M1109
M1160/PF5958
M11760
M1186/PF5864
M1187/PF5865
M1188/PF5869
M1190/PF5871
M1192/PF5872
M1216/PF5908
M1221/P331/PF5911
M1240/PF5936
M1259/PF5956
M1260/PF5957
M1264
M1265/PF5965
M173/P241/Page29
M207/Page37/UTY2
M2461
M251/M9122
M2684/PF3497/YSC0001319
M2696/PF3500
M306/PF6147/S1
M3637/PF2589/V186
M3639/PF2591
M3751/PF2748
M3752/PF2749
M417
M45/PF5962
M459/PF6235
M5106/PF2497
M512/PF6239
M515
M5650
M5682
M5691/PF779
M5695/PF1417/V41
M5708
M5737/PF892
M5781/PF1040
M5788
M5809/PF1237
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201
M74/N12/PF5963
M760/Y506
M764/PF5953
M799
M8961
M8980
M8983
M8999
M9009
M9015
M9017
M9020
M9025
M9028
M9037
M9038
M9042
M9045
M9054
M9056
M9064
M9066
M9110
M9129
M9156
M9169
M9194.3
M9200
M9215
M9223
M9231
M9246
M9252
M9253
M9257
M9261
M9283
M9286
M9288/PF985
M9292
M9317
M9328/PF1053
M9341
M9348
M9349
M9380
M9387
M9405
M9406
P105/P105
P128/PF5504
P131/PF5493
P132/PF5480
P135/PF2741
P139
P140
P149
P160/PF2618
P161
P187/PF2632
P224/PF6050
P225
P226/PF5879
P228/PF5927
P229/PF6019
P230/PF5925
P232
P233
P235/PF5946
P237/PF5873
P238/PF6115
P239/PF5930
P242/PF6113
P243/PF5874
P244/PF5896
P245/PF6117
P280
P281/PF5941
P282/PF5932
P283/PF5966
P284
P285
P295/PF5866/S8
P84.1
PF1016
PF1096
PF2608
PF5938
PF5982
PF6217/S339/Z283
PF6234/Page65.2/SRY10831.2/SRY1532.2
PF7372
Page7
S224/Z645
S484/Z48
V153
V1580/Z3965
Z11010
Z11892
Z11910
Z11916
Z12981
Z15942
Z1759
Z18049.2
Z19760
Z21885
Z3225
Z3236
Z3339.2
Z3604
Z3701
Z3704
Z40386
Z40389
Z40392
Z40393
Z40395
Z4692
Z6007


Negative for:

M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

17445

I'm sorry, that's above my abilities! I'm also unfamiliar with R1a.

ajc347
07-10-2017, 05:02 PM
I've had a further email exchange with Living DNA today and am happy to report that they have made a very generous gesture of goodwill to help offset some of the costs I have incurred testing both outside of, and confirming my P312+ result. :)

07-10-2017, 05:16 PM
Dibran,
Your positive for PF6217/S339/Z283, so itís got to be downstream of that. As I think you know already they only test for.

Downstream of Z283:-

M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

Dibran
07-10-2017, 05:37 PM
Dibran,
Your positive for PF6217/S339/Z283, so it’s got to be downstream of that. As I think you know already they only test for.

Downstream of Z283:-

M458/PF6241
L260/S222
Z280
S204/Z91
CTS8557/Z661
CTS91/S344/Z660
S205/Z92
CTS1211/S3357
P278/P278.1/P278.2
P278/P278.1/P278.2
CTS3402/S3361/V2670
L365/S468
S443/Z289
S221/Z284
L448/S200
S223/Z287
S345/Z288
S342/Z88

I already know I am positive for Z283....thats where living DNA placed me lol.

Additionally, Assuming they were not false negatives, I was negative for the 18 tested markers under Z283

Amerijoe
07-10-2017, 07:56 PM
I already know I am positive for Z283....thats where living DNA placed me lol.

Additionally, Assuming they were not false negatives, I was negative for the 18 tested markers under Z283

Comparing all your listed negative snps to mine produces same negative results. Did you run your all your snps to test for + or -? Going through my LDNA snp results, negative snps are not identified as such. I don't know how many are negative, but random selection from my list has produce a number of negative results as confirmed through Yfull. It's too tedious to check them all, but it is definitely a mix of both.

False positives and negatives do show up from time to time. My BigY has me at -M17 which is a real hoot. I have since confirmed this to be a false negative. Do you confirm your Z283 through other sources?

Dibran
07-10-2017, 10:10 PM
Comparing all your listed negative snps to mine produces same negative results. Did you run your all your snps to test for + or -? Going through my LDNA snp results, negative snps are not identified as such. I don't know how many are negative, but random selection from my list has produce a number of negative results as confirmed through Yfull. It's too tedious to check them all, but it is definitely a mix of both.

False positives and negatives do show up from time to time. My BigY has me at -M17 which is a real hoot. I have since confirmed this to be a false negative. Do you confirm your Z283 through other sources?

Well im testing FGC yelite so we will see. what do you mean did I run my snps? how do I do this? im just going off the positive list in the dowload section of LDNA and the negative SNPs they claimed to test via email.

Is there a third party tool I can run this through?

ArmandoR1b
07-10-2017, 10:29 PM
As i am a laymen in these things, would you be able to tell if LivingDNA took the wrong course with my route?

I am classed as R1a-Z283

Positive for:




I already know I am positive for Z283....thats where living DNA placed me lol.

Additionally, Assuming they were not false negatives, I was negative for the 18 tested markers under Z283


Well im testing FGC yelite so we will see. what do you mean did I run my snps? how do I do this? im just going off the positive list in the dowload section of LDNA and the negative SNPs they claimed to test via email.

Is there a third party tool I can run this through?

The only way to know if they gave you a false positive or a false negative on any of the relevant SNPs is to wait on your FGC results. There aren't any 3rd party tools to run all of the SNPs through. I compared your positives to a Ybrowse file and the only false positives that are in the list aren't relevant to you since you aren't positive for the upstream SNPs of those false positive SNPs. I can PM you an Excel file with the results if you want but I didn't label which are false positives since I don't know how to create comparison tree but I am familiar with the phylogeny of the Y-DNA tree so I know for sure certain SNPs really are false positives.

A short list of some of your false positives:

IMS-JST022455 C1a1~
AM00847/AMM008/B65 C1b1a2
Z15942 E1b1a1a1c2
Z6007 E1b1a1a1c2b2
M5106/PF2497 E1b1b1b1a1
CTS4076/Z1011 E2
Z3236 G2a2b2a1a1c1a
Z4692 H1a1d2c2
Z12981 H3a1
P105/P105 N1c1
L58 N1c1a1a1a2~
F3424/M1489 O1b1a1
CTS9862 O2a2b1a2a1a3
CTS2229/PF6254 R1b1
S484/Z48 R1b1a1a2a1a2b4~
L726 R2a~


The following positives in haplogroup R are what put you into your subclade:

M207/Page37/UTY2 R
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201 R
P224/PF6050 R
P229/PF6019 R
P232 R
P280 R
P285 R
Page7 R
M799 R (not listed)
CTS2908/M666/PF6123 R1
CTS3123/M670 R1
F102/M625/PF6116 R1
F93/M621/PF6114 R1
M173/P241/Page29 R1
M306/PF6147/S1 R1
P225 R1
P233 R1
P238/PF6115 R1
P242/PF6113 R1
P245/PF6117 R1
L145/M449/PF6175 R1a
L146/M420/PF6229 R1a
L62/M513/PF6200 R1a
L63/M511/PF6203 R1a
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286 R1a
L122/M448/PF6237 R1a1
M459/PF6235 R1a1
PF6234/Page65.2/SRY10831.2/SRY1532.2 R1a1
L120/M516/PF6236 R1a1~
M512/PF6239 R1a1a
M515 R1a1a
L449/PF6223 R1a1a~
M417 R1a1a1
L457/PF6191 R1a1a1~
S224/Z645 R1a1a1b
PF6217/S339/Z283 R1a1a1b1

Amerijoe
07-10-2017, 11:10 PM
Well im testing FGC yelite so we will see. what do you mean did I run my snps? how do I do this? im just going off the positive list in the dowload section of LDNA and the negative SNPs they claimed to test via email.

Is there a third party tool I can run this through?

Sorry wasn't aware of a negative snp email, thought you had them from another result. Armando is correct, just wait for your Yelite. Then you can confirm or refute all tested snps. Sending results to Yfull will have available tools for snp searches, matches and other useful info. I was able to confirm M17+ with Yelite. M17- from BigY probably a probe or depth issue. Good luck.

Dibran
07-11-2017, 01:09 PM
The only way to know if they gave you a false positive or a false negative on any of the relevant SNPs is to wait on your FGC results. There aren't any 3rd party tools to run all of the SNPs through. I compared your positives to a Ybrowse file and the only false positives that are in the list aren't relevant to you since you aren't positive for the upstream SNPs of those false positive SNPs. I can PM you an Excel file with the results if you want but I didn't label which are false positives since I don't know how to create comparison tree but I am familiar with the phylogeny of the Y-DNA tree so I know for sure certain SNPs really are false positives.

A short list of some of your false positives:

IMS-JST022455 C1a1~
AM00847/AMM008/B65 C1b1a2
Z15942 E1b1a1a1c2
Z6007 E1b1a1a1c2b2
M5106/PF2497 E1b1b1b1a1
CTS4076/Z1011 E2
Z3236 G2a2b2a1a1c1a
Z4692 H1a1d2c2
Z12981 H3a1
P105/P105 N1c1
L58 N1c1a1a1a2~
F3424/M1489 O1b1a1
CTS9862 O2a2b1a2a1a3
CTS2229/PF6254 R1b1
S484/Z48 R1b1a1a2a1a2b4~
L726 R2a~


The following positives in haplogroup R are what put you into your subclade:

M207/Page37/UTY2 R
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201 R
P224/PF6050 R
P229/PF6019 R
P232 R
P280 R
P285 R
Page7 R
M799 R (not listed)
CTS2908/M666/PF6123 R1
CTS3123/M670 R1
F102/M625/PF6116 R1
F93/M621/PF6114 R1
M173/P241/Page29 R1
M306/PF6147/S1 R1
P225 R1
P233 R1
P238/PF6115 R1
P242/PF6113 R1
P245/PF6117 R1
L145/M449/PF6175 R1a
L146/M420/PF6229 R1a
L62/M513/PF6200 R1a
L63/M511/PF6203 R1a
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286 R1a
L122/M448/PF6237 R1a1
M459/PF6235 R1a1
PF6234/Page65.2/SRY10831.2/SRY1532.2 R1a1
L120/M516/PF6236 R1a1~
M512/PF6239 R1a1a
M515 R1a1a
L449/PF6223 R1a1a~
M417 R1a1a1
L457/PF6191 R1a1a1~
S224/Z645 R1a1a1b
PF6217/S339/Z283 R1a1a1b1

Are you able to tell with the list of negatives I posted before? If they are actually negative that is.

That's really interesting. Didn't know you can get positive hits with other haplos.

Thank you

ArmandoR1b
07-11-2017, 06:32 PM
Are you able to tell with the list of negatives I posted before? If they are actually negative that is.
I can't tell. You'll have to depend on the FGC Y Elite results to find that out.

Aldernay
04-27-2018, 09:37 PM
Hello everyone

I've read through this thread with some interest. I tested through Living DNA in 2016 and I too was placed at R1b L-151. I downloaded the full data and exchanged a few emails with their (excellent) customer service rep who told me:

- We Test for P312: but you had "no call" for this marker, so this is neither negative or positive.
- We test approx 150 SNPs at or below R-P312, all of which are negative.
- We Test for U106: You are negative
- We Test for DF100: You are negative
- It is highly unlikely that you are is R-P312 positive, but we cannot rule it out.
- We currently do not test for A8051

If there are 150 SNPs below 312 that I am negative for, I agree it seems unlikely that I can be 312+

But that still leaves me way up at p310*

Er... Anyone know much about A8051 and its origins/associations??

ArmandoR1b
04-28-2018, 02:52 PM
Hello everyone

I've read through this thread with some interest. I tested through Living DNA in 2016 and I too was placed at R1b L-151. I downloaded the full data and exchanged a few emails with their (excellent) customer service rep who told me:

- We Test for P312: but you had "no call" for this marker, so this is neither negative or positive.
- We test approx 150 SNPs at or below R-P312, all of which are negative.
- We Test for U106: You are negative
- We Test for DF100: You are negative
- It is highly unlikely that you are is R-P312 positive, but we cannot rule it out.
- We currently do not test for A8051

If there are 150 SNPs below 312 that I am negative for, I agree it seems unlikely that I can be 312+

But that still leaves me way up at p310*

Er... Anyone know much about A8051 and its origins/associations??

LivingDNA does not test for DF27 or for ZZ12. The largest subclade of P312 is DF27.

Out of 1002 people that are positive for DF27 at www.ytree.net/ 603 are positive for ZZ12. So about 60%.

Most of the 150 SNPs at or below R-P312 that are tested by LivingDNA are below L21, U152, and Z195 but not below ZZ12.

You are highly likely to be positive for P312, DF27, and ZZ12 and you weren't tested, or you have a no-call, for those.

ajc347
04-28-2018, 03:28 PM
Hello everyone

I've read through this thread with some interest. I tested through Living DNA in 2016 and I too was placed at R1b L-151. I downloaded the full data and exchanged a few emails with their (excellent) customer service rep who told me:

- We Test for P312: but you had "no call" for this marker, so this is neither negative or positive.
- We test approx 150 SNPs at or below R-P312, all of which are negative.
- We Test for U106: You are negative
- We Test for DF100: You are negative
- It is highly unlikely that you are is R-P312 positive, but we cannot rule it out.
- We currently do not test for A8051

If there are 150 SNPs below 312 that I am negative for, I agree it seems unlikely that I can be 312+

But that still leaves me way up at p310*

Er... Anyone know much about A8051 and its origins/associations??

I'm sorry to hear that you're in a similar position to the one I was in last year.

I've answered your question in the A8051 thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10287-Testing-for-A8051&p=385488#post385488) as that's where I first saw it.

Basically, I'm suggesting you seek confirmation at YSEQ (either via a single panel test or the R1b-M343 Haplogroup panel) and then go back to Living DNA with evidence if they refuse to re-run your test. This is effectively what I needed to do in the end in order to resolve things I'm afraid.

Aldernay
04-28-2018, 07:31 PM
Terrific, thank you both for your insights and advice.

A

ArmandoR1b
04-29-2018, 02:58 PM
Terrific, thank you both for your insights and advice.

A

I hope you keep us updated with results either from a retest by LivingDNA or from testing elsewhere such as Yseq or FTDNA.

jshook
05-03-2018, 05:15 PM
I will say that, while I love Living DNA, their haplogroups leave a lot to be desired. For my mtDNA, I was just given a generic H with no subclade. I emailed them about it and this was the reply:


"Hi Josh,

Thanks for your enquiry.

I can see that we have given you results for your fatherline (Y haplogroup) with a subclade, but I can also see the results for your motherline haplogroup shows without a subclade.

When you look at the haplogroup that has been assigned to you, it's important to know that the detail of the results will depend on which of the markers that we test for are positive for your DNA sample. If the sample is of low quality or quantity, it may not be possible for a particular marker that you're expecting to be tested as positive.

Each company will select markers based on certain criteria and so may be able to deliver differing calls. The markers on our custom Orion chip have been chosen to provide better representation in a wider range of global populations, allowing us to give results to a wider section of people.

We have included roughly 20,000 SNP locations on the Y chromosome, and over 4,000 SNP locations on your mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).

But even with all those markers being included it may mean that there are a few cases we are not able to assign a subclade or take you as far in to the tree as you may expect. In these cases, we will assign the relevant branch in your haplogroup only.

In order for us to be able to provide more information, we would need to re-design our testing chip. Unfortunately at this time we are not able to start such a large project. We are always working to improve the information we offer for our customers and will be delivering updates to the service, so it may be something that we look at over the coming years.

Kind regards."

Meanwhile, 23andMe was finally able to give me a proper subclade (H3).

fostert
05-03-2018, 06:59 PM
LivingDNA does not test for DF27 or for ZZ12. The largest subclade of P312 is DF27.


Apparently they do - see my attached Y haplogroup and subclade estimate from LivingDNA. They place me deep within R-DF27, 5 additional subclades under it at R-CTS4065. This is the finest resolution estimate I've gotten; FTDNA only gave me R-M269 (with Y-str 111 markers), and 23andme gave me R-L51.
22942
Now I'm waiting on a Big-Y/Y500 which I ordered last week. My two Y111 matches have both tested with BigY and are 1-2 deeper subclades underneath CTS4065.

ArmandoR1b
05-04-2018, 12:15 PM
Apparently they do - see my attached Y haplogroup and subclade estimate from LivingDNA. They place me deep within R-DF27, 5 additional subclades under it at R-CTS4065. This is the finest resolution estimate I've gotten; FTDNA only gave me R-M269 (with Y-str 111 markers), and 23andme gave me R-L51.
22942
Now I'm waiting on a Big-Y/Y500 which I ordered last week. My two Y111 matches have both tested with BigY and are 1-2 deeper subclades underneath CTS4065.

No they do not. You were tested positive for an SNP downstream from DF27. That is not the same as being tested for DF27 which is a completely different position. You will see that I am correct if you email LivingDNA and ask them which allele you have for the result of position 21380200. You weren't genotyped for that position which is the position for DF27. They are saying that since you are positive for R-CTS4065 that you are inferred positive for DF27. Aldernay was not tested for DF27 or for ZZ12. There is no question.

23andme v5 tests for R-CTS4065 which is rs199595814 and people tested by the v5 chip can check their result at https://you.23andme.com/tools/data/?query=rs199595814 23andme v5 and LivingDNA use the same chip, although each is customized differently, and neither test DF27 or ZZ12. 23andme v5 does not test for P312 and as can be seen from others LivingDNA, at times, has a hard time testing for P312. 23andme v5 does not use CTS4065 as a haplogroup so people that are positive for CTS4065 will not see it as their paternal haplogroup.

Since you are R-L51 at 23andme you were tested by the v4 or v3 chip. The v2 chip included P312.

That's great that you will get a BigY test. The more the better since DF27 needs a lot more subclades identified.

euasta
08-04-2018, 06:49 PM
Hello.

I recently did a test. The communicated Y-haplogroup is G-P303. I used the isogg site and I searched in raw data from snp mutations.

Everything seemed to bind very well from root to Y-haplogroup G2a2b2a (P303), but... 4 steps further I found the mutation corresponding to... G2a2b2a1a1a1 (L13). Strange is that there is no intermediate snp in raw data...
What do you think? Can there be a mutation without a few intermediate mutations that bind L13 to P303 in the tree!

Another strange thing is that after I finished checking all the data in the file I found that 14% (over 30) of the snps listed did not seem to be in the common trunk linking P303 to the root of the tree but corresponded to other haplogroupe's subgroups like: G1, A0a1, A1, C, D, E1, E2, H, H1, J, J2, N1, O1, R1, R2!

What these mean? I'm trying to understand... but now I do not understand anything anymore.

aaronbee2010
08-11-2018, 12:24 AM
Hello.

I recently did a test. The communicated Y-haplogroup is G-P303. I used the isogg site and I searched in raw data from snp mutations.

Everything seemed to bind very well from root to Y-haplogroup G2a2b2a (P303), but... 4 steps further I found the mutation corresponding to... G2a2b2a1a1a1 (L13). Strange is that there is no intermediate snp in raw data...
What do you think? Can there be a mutation without a few intermediate mutations that bind L13 to P303 in the tree!

Hello! There are indeed intermediate mutations between G-P303 and G-L13 (in this case, you would have: P303 > L140 > PF3346 > PF3345 > U1 > L13) however LivingDNA don't test for all SNPs from G-P303 to G-L13 because that would cost them (and therefore you) more money, so they do skip some SNPs as a cost-saving measure as far as I know.

To give an example from myself (Going from R2a to R2a2b1b2a1a1 - my haplogroup):

M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Y1383 - The SNPs in bold were tested positive by LivingDNA and the SNPs not in bold were not tested for by LivingDNA.

Looking at my example, it may appear that there are no intermediate mutations between SK2142 and Y1379. In truth, there is an intermediate mutation between them (Y1377), however LivingDNA do not test for Y1377. Nonetheless I can look at the fact that I am positive for SNPs that come before and after Y1377 so I know that I am also positive for Y1377.

In your case, since you are positive for P303 and L13, you will also be positive for the L140, PF3346, PF3345, and U1 SNPs and testing for these SNPs would confirm this.


Another strange thing is that after I finished checking all the data in the file I found that 14% (over 30) of the snps listed did not seem to be in the common trunk linking P303 to the root of the tree but corresponded to other haplogroupe's subgroups like: G1, A0a1, A1, C, D, E1, E2, H, H1, J, J2, N1, O1, R1, R2!

What these mean? I'm trying to understand... but now I do not understand anything anymore.

This is normal, people often have SNP mutations that belong to haplogroups that are not located between Y-Adam and their terminal subclade. this can either be a false positive (a mistake on the part of LivingDNA) or it could even be a coincidental mutation!

To give examples that apply to me, I've tested positive for the M1489 SNP, which comes under O1b1a1 (ISOGG 2018), and the Z48 SNP which comes under R1b1a1a2a1a2b4 (ISOGG 2018) with LivingDNA. Considering that M1489 is only SNP I have that comes under O (let alone O1b1a1) and Z48 is the only SNP I have that comes under R1b (let alone R1b1a1a2a1a2b4), its obvious that I do not belong to either of these haplogroups. Therefore these SNPs are either false positives or coincidental mutations.

razyn
08-13-2018, 11:21 PM
I posted some stuff pertinent to this thread on the Facebook group for LivingDNA. But it's in the "replies" to a guy who has had many other replies, and may never be seen by anybody at LivingDNA (or elsewhere, who might care). So I'll paste it in here, also. Note that "Armando" at 23andMe posts as "ArmandoR1b" on this forum. I'm "razyn," either place. But on Facebook I use my actual name.
__________________

The list [of PH SNPs below DF27] has grown a bit since April, 2017 [when I had previously reported seeing 21 of them]. Checking it today, I see that the DF27 portion of Alex Williamson's Big Tree (at ytree dot net) has the following 26 SNPs beginning with PH:

PH4190
PH5262
PH3239
PH2449
PH1909

PH1909 is an important one that has been discussed on a 23andMe forum by me ("razyn") and "Armando," who by the way is about the most well informed person regularly posting there about DF27/S250 and its subclades. He had said, "Both LivingDNA and 23andme v5 use the Illumina Global Screening Array (GSA) chip," on a thread there with the subject line "Spaniards." On a different but somewhat related thread, I replied to him about that specific SNP, PH1909. You might be able to find the full discussion here: https://www.23andmeforums.com/discussion/comment/171958...

This was my comment: "I wondered whether the "Orion" chip test at LivingDNA might include it [PH1909]. They use the same chip as 23andMe v. 5, but customize it differently. I believe Pille Hallast (whose broad study named the PH SNPs) and Mark Jobling were the team that customized it. But there may have been a larger committee involved."

Continuing the list of PH SNPs currently on the Big Tree below DF27:

PH3372
PH92
PH1859
PH4283
PH1171
PH312
PH1354
PH5341

All 13 listed so far are on the Z195+ side of his DF27 tree. The rest of this list (13 more, total 26) are on the ZZ12+ side:

PH2690
PH2007
PH3851
PH1011
PH4655
PH5187
PH5150
PH2054
PH2047
PH133
PH4023
PH3162
PH4318

Assuming that what Armando reported on the linked thread on Jan. 26 was correct, and remains so, "LivingDNA doesn't report all of the SNPs or the positions tested to all of it's customers so it isn't as easy to determine what is and what isn't tested." That would be easy enough for LivingDNA to correct, but they would need to place the above list of 26 PH SNPs on their tree, in their correct positions (below DF27). Then their reporting software could just tell you what you have already tested positive for.

Anybody can check the DF27 portion of the Big Tree here: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=29

Footnote: After that display loads, I just asked my browser to "Find" PH. I got these 26 SNPs. I also got a couple of guys named McPherson and Stephens, but basically it was an easy list to compile.

euasta
08-14-2018, 12:07 PM
Thank you very much for the valuable information that made me waste the fog on understanding the results!

Hello! There are indeed intermediate mutations between G-P303 and G-L13 (in this case, you would have: P303 > L140 > PF3346 > PF3345 > U1 > L13) however LivingDNA don't test for all SNPs from G-P303 to G-L13 because that would cost them (and therefore you) more money, so they do skip some SNPs as a cost-saving measure as far as I know.

To give an example from myself (Going from R2a to R2a2b1b2a1a1 - my haplogroup):

M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Y1383 - The SNPs in bold were tested positive by LivingDNA and the SNPs not in bold were not tested for by LivingDNA.

Looking at my example, it may appear that there are no intermediate mutations between SK2142 and Y1379. In truth, there is an intermediate mutation between them (Y1377), however LivingDNA do not test for Y1377. Nonetheless I can look at the fact that I am positive for SNPs that come before and after Y1377 so I know that I am also positive for Y1377.

In your case, since you are positive for P303 and L13, you will also be positive for the L140, PF3346, PF3345, and U1 SNPs and testing for these SNPs would confirm this.


This is normal, people often have SNP mutations that belong to haplogroups that are not located between Y-Adam and their terminal subclade. this can either be a false positive (a mistake on the part of LivingDNA) or it could even be a coincidental mutation!

To give examples that apply to me, I've tested positive for the M1489 SNP, which comes under O1b1a1 (ISOGG 2018), and the Z48 SNP which comes under R1b1a1a2a1a2b4 (ISOGG 2018) with LivingDNA. Considering that M1489 is only SNP I have that comes under O (let alone O1b1a1) and Z48 is the only SNP I have that comes under R1b (let alone R1b1a1a2a1a2b4), its obvious that I do not belong to either of these haplogroups. Therefore these SNPs are either false positives or coincidental mutations.

My knowledge in the field is few and that's why I speculate a little.
Except mistakes, coincident mutations would refer to identical sequences of nucleotide that eventually may exist on other chromosomes, but due to the sequencing process that they use, its lose their identity and are confused as belonging to the Y chromosome?
I have calculated exactly and found 12.7% of such markers in my data. Also, others who checked their data found similar markers. It is very strange, because I read that the mutations on the Y chromosome rarely occur ~ 500-1000 years or more, and its seem for me like are conditioned by the existence of the previous mutations. So if we have most of the mutations corresponding to the G2 or R2 haplogrup, why this few (coincidental) mutations that still occur and are framed with other haplogroups, not to define also mutations on ours G2, R2 or... other haplogroups?

BroderTuck
08-15-2018, 06:06 AM
... tested positive for the M1489 SNP, and the Z48 SNP ... these SNPs are either false positives or coincidental mutations.

Considering that they are listed in my results as well, they seem to be false positives rather than coincidental mutations.

razyn
08-26-2018, 07:11 PM
see my attached Y haplogroup and subclade estimate from LivingDNA. They place me deep within R-DF27, 5 additional subclades under it at R-CTS4065.

Your haplotree display interests me because I'm also CTS4065+ and the LivingDNA raw data show that, but they don't show that I was tested for Z295. The call I got was just Z220.*

I guess I agree with Armando, though, that some of their calls are just assumed because you have a SNP at some downstream level. Not all of them are tested on their Orion chip.

Also, in a previous post on this thread (about the list of PH SNPs) -- I was mistaken in assuming that they would test the ones their team member Pille Hallast discovered. They seem not to have included her new SNPs in the positions they test.

* Note that my calls were posted in April 2017, before raw data downloads were available, I believe. It may be that somebody called their attention to CTS4065 later than that. Otherwise, I don't see why one tester with that positive/derived call (fostert) would have CTS4065 as his terminal SNP, and I did not. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9997-The-Living-DNA-waiting-game-Your-experience&p=225064&viewfull=1#post225064

Ric
08-30-2018, 02:16 PM
23andme v5 and LivingDNA use the same chip...
Does it mean I should use my 23&me autosomal, rather than my FTDNA FF, for the free transfer to Living DNA ?

Ric
08-30-2018, 02:19 PM
double post

ArmandoR1b
09-03-2018, 06:19 PM
Does it mean I should use my 23&me autosomal, rather than my FTDNA FF, for the free transfer to Living DNA ?

I don't know anything about the free transfer to LivingDNA but unless you have purchased a 23andme test since Aug 2017 you weren't tested by the same chip as the LivingDNA chip. Each company, 23adndme and LivingDNA, also had the chip customized so they are somewhat different but mostly similar.

MagisterMilitum
09-09-2018, 01:02 AM
I can check that for you right now, on a side note I got my Geno 2.0 today and it also gave me R-Z195, the same as Living DNA's corrected haplogroup. Let me dig up my LDNA data here..

AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2
CTS10083
CTS10085/M1250/PF5948
CTS10149/PF6490/V3993
CTS10168/M1149
CTS10362/M5770
CTS10663/M788
CTS10834
CTS109/M8948
CTS11468/PF6520
CTS11827/M5816
CTS11948/PF6522/PF6522
CTS11985/PF6523
CTS12028/M1272/PF5977
CTS1217/M5597
CTS125/M5576
CTS1274/FGC34/PF6422
CTS1738/FGC55/PF6449
CTS196/PF5845
CTS1996/M5651
CTS2134
CTS2254/M3680/PF2657
CTS2664/PF6454
CTS2908/M666/PF6123
CTS3123/M670
CTS3135/M1206/PF5898
CTS3229/M672/PF6036/YSC0001265
CTS3358/M1210/PF5900
CTS3460/M5670
CTS3475/PF6456/V2714
CTS3622/PF6037
CTS3941/CTS3941/PF2135/PF2135
CTS4244/PF6257/YSC0001279
CTS4443/M3696/PF2677
CTS4944/M1218/PF5909
CTS5318/M5690
CTS5418/M1222/PF5912
CTS543/M5584
CTS5577/PF6464
CTS5808/M1226/PF5915
CTS5815/M696
CTS5884/M1228/PF5917
CTS6135/M3708/PF2693
CTS6203
CTS623/PF6419
CTS6252/M5700
CTS6378
CTS6800/M5713
CTS7295/PF848
CTS7604/M1235/PF5928
CTS7659/FGC50/PF6470
CTS7904/PF6471
CTS7933/M5728
CTS7941/PF6472
CTS8148
CTS8243/M5736
CTS8436/PF6259
CTS8591
CTS8612/PF6260
CTS8626/M1239/PF5934
CTS8627/PF6478
CTS8665/PF6479
CTS8728/L1063/PF6480/S13
CTS894/PF6420/YSC0001293
CTS9005/M741
CTS9014/M5750
CTS9018/PF6484
CTS9162/L1185/M1241/PF5937
CTS9458/M5753
CTS9556/M5758
CTS9722/M5762
CTS9972/PF6261
E101/M12191/Y1271
F102/M625/PF6116
F1046/M3646/PF2610/YSC0001295
F115/M1189/PF5870
F1167/PF4516/YSC0001296
F1320/M3657/PF2621
F1381/PF4520
F154/M636
F1704/M3675/PF2651
F1714/F1714/M3677/PF2653/PF2653
F1767/M3683/PF2660
F1794/PF6455
F1857/P337/PF5901/Page83
F2075/PF2685
F2211
F2434
F2837/M3726/PF2722
F29/L821/M5579/PF5857
F295/M685
F2993/M3737/PF2732/V3940
F313/M1219
F33/M603/PF6013
F332/M1224/PF5914
F3335/M3754/PF2758
F3358/PF4611/YSC0001316
F3424/M1489
F344/M1227/PF5916
F356/M703/PF5919
F359/M1229/PF5920
F3689/M2682/PF3495/Y2571
F370/M708/Y479
F3703
F4/M1183/PF5991
F459/Y482
F47/M607/Y472
F506/M1243/PF5940
F524/M1248/PF5945
F536/M1251/PF5949
F63/M614/PF6016
F640/M1271/PF5975
F671/M1274/PF5981
F69/L773/PF6421/YSC0000276
F83/M1185/PF5861
F847
F91/PF5862/V231
F929/M578/PF3494/S6378
F93/M621/PF6114
FGC33/PF6469
FGC41/M12190/Y108
IMS-JST022455
L1345/PF6266/YSC0000224
L1347/M792/PF6077/YSC0000233
L1348/PF6521/YSC0000238
L1350/PF6505/YSC0000225
L1351/PF6528/YSC0000240
L1353/PF6489/YSC0000294
L15/M523/PF3492/S137
L16/M522/PF3493/S138
L23/PF6534/S141
L248.3/M705.3
L265/PF6431
L407/PF6252
L468/M3703/PF2689
L482/PF6427
L483
L500/PF6481
L502/PF6487
L506/PF6267
L51/M412/PF6536/S167
L58
L726
L741/PF5960/YSC0000297
L747/M702/PF5918/YSC0000287
L752/PF6483
L754/PF6269/YSC0000022
L757/PF6488/V3721/YSC0000293
L760/M642/PF5877/YSC0000286
L761/PF6258/YSC0000266
L762/PF6450/YSC0000258
L768/PF5976/YSC0000274
L779/PF5907/YSC0000251
L781/PF5875/YSC0000255
L82/PF5972
L822/PF6247/YSC0000075
L875/M706/PF6131/YSC0000288
L882/M3749/PF2745
L963
L970/PF1065
M10372.1/ZS6696.1
M1109
M1160/PF5958
M11760
M1186/PF5864
M1187/PF5865
M1188/PF5869
M1190/PF5871
M1192/PF5872
M1199/PF5886
M1216/PF5908
M1221/P331/PF5911
M1240/PF5936
M1259/PF5956
M1260/PF5957
M1263/PF5964
M1264
M1265/PF5965
M173/P241/Page29
M207/Page37/UTY2
M213/P137/PF2673/Page38
M251/M9122
M2684/PF3497/YSC0001319
M269/PF6517
M2696/PF3500
M299
M306/PF6147/S1
M343/PF6242
M3637/PF2589/V186
M3639/PF2591
M3751/PF2748
M3752/PF2749
M415/PF6251
M45/PF5962
M5577/PF1413/V189
M5608/PF258
M5642
M5650
M5682
M5691/PF779
M5695/PF1417/V41
M5708
M5717/PF844
M5737/PF892
M5738
M5747
M5760
M5781/PF1040
M5788
M5809/PF1237
M5822
M734/PF6057/S4/YSC0000201
M74/N12/PF5963
M760/Y506
M764/PF5953
M799
M8952
M8956
M8959
M8961
M8980
M8986
M8999
M9009
M9015
M9017
M9020
M9025
M9026
M9028
M9032
M9034
M9038
M9042
M9045
M9054
M9056
M9057
M9064
M9066
M9115
M9129
M9156
M9169
M9194.3
M9200
M9215
M9218
M9223
M9231
M9237
M9246
M9252
M9253
M9257
M9261
M9280
M9283
M9286
M9288/PF985
M9292
M9293
M9316/PF1034
M9317
M9318
M9328/PF1053
M9338
M9341
M9348
M9349
M9352
M9356
M9359
M9380
M9387
M9405
M9406
P105/P105
P128/PF5504
P131/PF5493
P132/PF5480
P135/PF2741
P139
P140
P149
P160/PF2618
P161
P187/PF2632
P224/PF6050
P225
P226/PF5879
P228/PF5927
P229/PF6019
P230/PF5925
P232
P233
P235/PF5946
P236
P237/PF5873
P238/PF6115
P239/PF5930
P242/PF6113
P243/PF5874
P244/PF5896
P245/PF6117
P280
P281/PF5941
P282/PF5932
P283/PF5966
P284
P285
P286/PF6136
P295/PF5866/S8
P297/PF6398
P310/PF6546/S129
P311/PF6545/S128
P312/PF6547/S116
P84.1
PF1016
PF1096
PF2608
PF5938
PF5982
PF6246
PF6249
PF6263
PF6265
PF6270
PF6271
PF6272
PF6399/S10
PF6409
PF6425
PF6426
PF6429
PF6430
PF6432
PF6434
PF6435
PF6451
PF6463
PF6466/YSC0000194
PF6482/YSC0000203
PF6485/S3
PF6495
PF6497/YSC0000219
PF6498
PF6506
PF6507
PF6524
PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191
PF7372
S227/Z195
S349.1
S484/Z48
SRY10831.1
V153
V1580/Z3965
Z11010
Z11892
Z11910
Z11916
Z1759
Z18049.2
Z1853
Z21721
Z3225
Z3339.2
Z40386
Z40387
Z40389
Z40392
Z40393
Z40394
Z40395

Hi.
I just registered on this site. I was googling about my own LDNA results when I saw this post.
It seems that we have exactly the same results, from AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2 to Z40395, then I have an additional
"Z4145/Z4147"

I'm pretty new in genealogy and genetics, so i don't really understand what it means... do we have family in common ?
I'm french living in France and my fatherline comes from the Auvergne, my surname is Blanc. I 've read about the U106>Z381>Z156 subclades and their supposed frankish origins, but it's the first time I find one sample so close to mine.
Later in the thread (page 2) "Dibran" shows exactly the same results too with an additional AM00847/AMM008/B65 at the begining and Z4692 / Z6007 after Z40395
I'm a bit lost... What does that mean ?

Thanks for your reply and please excuse my bad english

ArmandoR1b
09-10-2018, 01:22 PM
Hi.
I just registered on this site. I was googling about my own LDNA results when I saw this post.
It seems that we have exactly the same results, from AM01921.2/S475.2/Z2983.2 to Z40395, then I have an additional
"Z4145/Z4147"

I'm pretty new in genealogy and genetics, so i don't really understand what it means... do we have family in common ?
I'm french living in France and my fatherline comes from the Auvergne, my surname is Blanc. I 've read about the U106>Z381>Z156 subclades and their supposed frankish origins, but it's the first time I find one sample so close to mine.
Later in the thread (page 2) "Dibran" shows exactly the same results too with an additional AM00847/AMM008/B65 at the begining and Z4692 / Z6007 after Z40395
I'm a bit lost... What does that mean ?

Thanks for your reply and please excuse my bad english

Any SNP that you share with sktibo is upstream from M405/S21/U106.

Here are the reasons:


You are positive for M405/S21/U106 and some downstream SNPs from M405/S21/U106
sktibo is positive for P312/PF6547/S116 and some SNPs downstream from P312/PF6547/S116
All SNPs upstream from M405/S21/U106 and P312/PF6547/S116 are shared by everyone in these haplogroups.
You are negative for P312/PF6547/S116 and so is everyone else that is positive for M405/S21/U106
sktibo is negative for M405/S21/U106 and so is everyone else that is positive for P312/PF6547/S116



Any differences that you have with sktibo are due to the following:

They are in diverged branches downstream from P311/PF6545/S128, P310/PF6546/S129, L11/PF6539/S127, and PF6543/S1159/YSC0000191.
It is also possible that either you or he had some no-calls and/or false positives.



Living DNA only provides you with positive SNPs and they are not in haplogroup order.

I posted more information in your thread at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15279-A-new-one-from-France&p=483977