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Kaldo
06-28-2017, 08:59 PM
The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish

http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full

"Recently, the geographical origins of Ashkenazic Jews (AJs) and their native language Yiddish were investigated by applying the Geographic Population Structure (GPS) to a cohort of exclusively Yiddish-speaking and multilingual AJs. GPS localized most AJs along major ancient trade routes in northeastern Turkey adjacent to primeval villages with names that resemble the word “Ashkenaz.” These findings were compatible with the hypothesis of an Irano-Turko-Slavic origin for AJs and a Slavic origin for Yiddish and at odds with the Rhineland hypothesis advocating a Levantine origin for AJs and German origins for Yiddish. We discuss how these findings advance three ongoing debates concerning (1) the historical meaning of the term “Ashkenaz;” (2) the genetic structure of AJs and their geographical origins as inferred from multiple studies employing both modern and ancient DNA and original ancient DNA analyses; and (3) the development of Yiddish. We provide additional validation to the non-Levantine origin of AJs using ancient DNA from the Near East and the Levant. Due to the rising popularity of geo-localization tools to address questions of origin, we briefly discuss the advantages and limitations of popular tools with focus on the GPS approach. Our results reinforce the non-Levantine origins of AJs."

I haven't read it, but I'm figuring that the Canannite paper finding Iranianlike admixture in Canaan would address the Persian.

Labayu
06-28-2017, 09:34 PM
I haven't read it yet either, but don't expect it to be much more than nonsense considering Elhaik and Wexler are authors. Elhaik is the guy who claimed Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the Khazars based on similarities between Ashkenazi Jews and Armenians. Wexler has various theories about Yiddish accepted by no other linguist other than one who writes remarkably similarly to Wexler himself and publishes under a pseudonym.

MindHive
06-29-2017, 04:59 PM
Sounds like a bs paper in all honesty. I can't find a single paper that compares DNA of AJ with other Jewish groups of Levantine descent, (Persian, Sephardi groups) and then compares the similarity of AJ on a PCA with Turkish and Slav vs the similarity of Levantine based Jews. I doubt not a single paper that did that could conclude that AJ are Turkish based.

Psynome
06-29-2017, 05:44 PM
This paper is pushing a debunked crank theory.

Anyone on GEDmatch can quickly find that AJ are a mixture of Levantine and European, and closely resemble Italians.

There are a multitude of papers proving this, though there have been some false steps, mostly I think because some researchers are uncomfortable with evidence that AJ were founded predominantly by male Levantine Jews that intermarried with European women, probably in Italy and Southern Europe during the Roman Empire. Thereafter they were mostly endogamous.

What I'd like to see is a study comparing modern AJ to the ancient Bronze Age Canaanite genomes analyzed in Haber et al 2017. Then we can really look at how much of their ancestry traces back to post Neolithic west Asians and how much is European admixture.

Agamemnon
06-29-2017, 06:27 PM
It's mostly a load of nonsense, I've already mentioned the Das gang's former paper here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6991-Elhaik-and-Ashkenazi-ancestry-Scholarly-infatuation-or-unhealthy-obsession). I tend to view this as an experiment designed to prove that the craziest theories can still get past the peer review process.

Wexler is a crook and a nutbag, his theories are self-defeating (literally), Elhaik is also arguing against the data. There's much to bet that the motivation here is purely political, at least I'm quite sure this is true in Wexler's case.


What I'd like to see is a study comparing modern AJ to the ancient Bronze Age Canaanite genomes analyzed in Haber et al 2017. Then we can really look at how much of their ancestry traces back to post Neolithic west Asians and how much is European admixture.

Haber et al. modeled the Sidon_BA samples as Levant_N + Iran_Chl, this is what Ashkenazi Jews get if I use K7:

[1] "distance%=0.2834 / distance=0.002834"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.50
Italian_Tuscan:average 25.70
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 19.70
Polish:average 13.35
Lithuanian:average 2.75


A very good fit, which is in line with Ashkenazim being 55% to 60% Levantine in origin on average (usually around 57%).

Tz85
06-29-2017, 06:40 PM
Most Ashkenazi Jews cluster close to modern day Southern Italians, this is mainly due to being descent from Romanite, Italkim Jews. This article is complete bullshit.

C J Wyatt III
06-29-2017, 07:01 PM
Most Ashkenazi Jews cluster close to modern day Southern Italians, this is mainly due to being descent from Romanite, Italkim Jews. This article is complete bullshit.

I just have the feeling that no one has come up with the correct explanation, at least for the female side.

Psynome
06-29-2017, 08:39 PM
Very neat! A little more Polish/Lithuanian than I had anticipated.

If you've got Sephardi and other Jewish groups as well, I'm curious to see how they'd compare.

Agamemnon
06-29-2017, 09:26 PM
Very neat! A little more Polish/Lithuanian than I had anticipated.

If you've got Sephardi and other Jewish groups as well, I'm curious to see how they'd compare.

I suspect the Eastern European is inflated by a factor of ~2 here. Anyway, this is what Sephardim get:

[1] "distance%=0.175 / distance=0.00175"

Sephardic_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 36.70
Italian_Tuscan:average 24.30
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 20.10
Italian_Bergamo:average 10.85
Spanish:average 6.35
Avar:average 1.70

Avar should be added to Levant_N and Iran_Chl, in many cases it improves the fit (my father is a pretty good example of this actually). All in all they're extremely similar to Ashkenazim (they're basically a single population anyway, but you won't see Elhaik saying it).

This is what Mizrahi Jews get:

[1] "distance%=0.1952 / distance=0.001952"

Iraqi_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 43.15
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 28.70
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 26.70
Avar:average 1.45


[1] "distance%=0.1909 / distance=0.001909"

Iranian_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 41.4
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 31.6
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 24.9
Iranian_Zoroastrian:average 2.1

Mizrahi Jews are by and large of Mesopotamian origin, so it's extremely likely Iran_Chl comprises some of their Mesopotamian ancestry. Samaritans are likely to be the closest contemporary population to Sidon_BA, so they're probably a better proxy for actual Judean ancestry in their case:

[1] "distance%=0.1369 / distance=0.001369"

Iraqi_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 47.05
Samaritan 39.30
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 9.85
Avar:average 3.80


[1] "distance%=0.1115 / distance=0.001115"

Iranian_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 39.95
Samaritan 36.65
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 18.45
Avar:average 4.00
Iranian_Zoroastrian:average 0.95

^^These fits make much more sense, they're in line with what Mizrahim usually get, like I said they're basically a Mesopotamian population. As incredible as it might sound, Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian, Romaniote, North African, Syrian, Egyptian, etc) seem to have inherited larger chunks of Israelite/Judean ancestry (between 55% and 60% on average) than them. Based on the above, I also think it's safe to conclude that the Assyrians are going to be very similar to their ancient namesake.

jesus
06-29-2017, 10:03 PM
Nice work. Can you model Assyrians too? They probably have a good amount of Southern Levantine ancestry.

Agamemnon
06-29-2017, 10:40 PM
Nice work. Can you model Assyrians too? They probably have a good amount of Southern Levantine ancestry.

Iran_Chl doesn't work too well with Assyrians for some odd reason (this will probably change when we get ancient DNA from Mesopotamia), either way if we use Armenia_EBA (which is basically Kura-Araxes) this is what they get:

[1] "distance%=0.2098 / distance=0.002098"

Assyrian:average

Armenia_EBA:average 68.70
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 28.65
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 2.65


[1] "distance%=0.2159 / distance=0.002159"

Assyrian:average

Armenia_EBA:average 70.8
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 25.6
Jordan_EBA:average 3.6


[1] "distance%=0.3081 / distance=0.003081"

Assyrian:average

Armenia_EBA:average 66.15
Jordan_EBA:average 26.00
Boncuklu_Neolithic:average 7.85


The last fit is rather interesting, as Jordan_EBA is probably very similar to what the Proto-Semites were like from a genetic standpoint. However it would be far-fetched to conclude that the Assyrians are slightly over 1/4 Akkadian as they probably mingled with scores of Semitic-speaking peoples that must've been near-identical to Jordan_EBA, including Amorites (the Bronze Age Jordanians probably were Amorites themselves).

Psynome
06-29-2017, 10:57 PM
A possible explanation for the diluted Levantine in Eastern Jews is less endogamy from greater integration and comparatively less historical persecution in Mesopotamian Persian and Muslim society than that experienced by Western Jews.

Agamemnon
06-29-2017, 11:04 PM
A possible explanation for the diluted Levantine in Eastern Jews is less endogamy from greater integration and comparatively less historical persecution in Mesopotamian Persian and Muslim society than that experienced by Western Jews.

Doubtful, IMO this is merely due to the fact that Mesopotamia had the oldest Jewish community outside the land of Israel... That is to say a long time before intermarriage was frowned upon, therefore they had plenty of time to mix with their host population. Otherwise, Muslim societies were every bit as repressive as Christian ones, if not more to some extent, so well that the region's ethno-religious make up came to be even more contrasted.

Kaldo
06-30-2017, 12:04 AM
So if we don't count Samaritians for being too inbred then are Mizrahi the closest?

lukaszM
07-03-2017, 09:19 AM
These findings were compatible with the hypothesis of an Irano-Turko-Slavic origin for AJs and a Slavic origin for Yiddish and at odds with the Rhineland hypothesis advocating a Levantine origin for AJs and German origins for Yiddish.

How somebody could postulate Yddish isn't derived from old High German, and Slavic instead?

Maybe Khazar theorists could link it to Crimean Gothic?:)

kingjohn
07-03-2017, 11:27 AM
wow huge italian admixture in sefhardic :)
by your model
25% tuscan + 10% bergamo nice ;)
probably roman empire converts thats why they share signatures
which sefhardic did you used mororocan jews ?
or turkish bulgarian jews
regards
adam

p.s
the slavic admixture is probably 8-10% not 13% as you mentioned correctly
anyway it is there sefhardic lack it
and aschenazi lack the 6% iberian fit in the sefhardic and the 10% bergamo ....
they share the middle eastern elments
levant neolithic
+ iran chalcolitic

we can't ran away from partly roman origins to the sefhardic jews as long has bergamo there ....

Inigo Montoya
07-03-2017, 12:27 PM
Ashkenazi origins has developed into a kind of crap magnet these past few years, possibly because the nonsense that gets published creates a perception that the topic itself is somehow "tainted" (it's not!) and serious scholars prefer to steer clear.

kingjohn
07-03-2017, 01:46 PM
Doubtful, IMO this is merely due to the fact that Mesopotamia had the oldest Jewish community outside the land of Israel... That is to say a long time before intermarriage was frowned upon, therefore they had plenty of time to mix with their host population. Otherwise, Muslim societies were every bit as repressive as Christian ones, if not more to some extent, so well that the region's ethno-religious make up came to be even more contrasted.

they have long time to mix you are correct that explain my indo -iranian in dna land and the lack of it in my brother
and the pakistan in dna tribes
can't wait for my father results i think i got those pakistani signitures from him ...

p.s
why they don't publish paper on sefhardic jews
too many paper on aschenazi jews and none on sefhardi why :\

wandering_amorite
07-03-2017, 05:45 PM
they have long time to mix you are correct that explain my indo -iranian in dna land and the lack of it in my brother
and the pakistan in dna tribes
can't wait for my father results i think i got those pakistani signitures from him ...

p.s
why they don't publish paper on sefhardic jews
too many paper on aschenazi jews and none on sefhardi why :\


wow huge italian admixture in sefhardic :)
by your model
25% tuscan + 10% bergamo nice ;)
probably roman empire converts thats why they share signatures
which sefhardic did you used mororocan jews ?
or turkish bulgarian jews
regards
adam

p.s
the slavic admixture is probably 8-10% not 13% as you mentioned correctly
anyway it is there sefhardic lack it
and aschenazi lack the 6% iberian fit in the sefhardic and the 10% bergamo ....
they share the middle eastern elments
levant neolithic
+ iran chalcolitic

we can't ran away from partly roman origins to the sefhardic jews as long has bergamo there ....

FWIW Northern Italians tend to come out very close to Iberians on most calculators, and could possibly be a better proxy for pre-Moorish invasion Iberian ancestry than contemporary Iberians.

vettor
07-03-2017, 06:55 PM
wow huge italian admixture in sefhardic :)
by your model
25% tuscan + 10% bergamo nice ;)
probably roman empire converts thats why they share signatures
which sefhardic did you used mororocan jews ?
or turkish bulgarian jews
regards
adam

p.s
the slavic admixture is probably 8-10% not 13% as you mentioned correctly
anyway it is there sefhardic lack it
and aschenazi lack the 6% iberian fit in the sefhardic and the 10% bergamo ....
they share the middle eastern elments
levant neolithic
+ iran chalcolitic

we can't ran away from partly roman origins to the sefhardic jews as long has bergamo there ....

Sefhatic Jews where kicked out of Iberia ~1480AD and this includes Spanish Morocco and Algeria ( oran )..........most went to Netherlands and then to Britain and others through the town of valencia went to Venice ( genoese took them to Nice, and ligurian lands ) , Venice sent them either to Germany with the German merchants or took them to the Levant but the truly wealthy Jews went to ferrara and Tuscany. The rich Jews due to the law in Venice of not allowing usury ( loaning money for profit ) departed for central italy.
So to me sephatic jews in Tuscany should be high , towns like livorno, Pisa and Lucca, .....................Bergamo ( near switzerland and austria ) seems odd,

Agamemnon
07-03-2017, 07:06 PM
wow huge italian admixture in sefhardic :)
by your model
25% tuscan + 10% bergamo nice ;)
probably roman empire converts thats why they share signatures
which sefhardic did you used mororocan jews ?
or turkish bulgarian jews
regards
adam

Well the Italian admixture often goes up to ~37% in Ashkenazim, it really depends on the populations you're using to proxy the admixture (especially if you're using ancient populations, the contrast tends to be greater). At this point, I think the data suggests Western Jews are mostly Judean (~55% to ~60%) and Roman (~25% to ~35%) in origin. This is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry seems to have been Greek-speaking, still, that's what the data suggests. The Sephardic reference is from Turkey BTW.


p.s
the slavic admixture is probably 8-10% not 13% as you mentioned correctly
anyway it is there sefhardic lack it
and aschenazi lack the 6% iberian fit in the sefhardic and the 10% bergamo ....
they share the middle eastern elments
levant neolithic
+ iran chalcolitic

we can't ran away from partly roman origins to the sefhardic jews as long has bergamo there ....

Yeah I think the Eastern Euro is inflated by a factor of two, like I said this also depends on the populations used to proxy the admixture, in this case the contrast is far greater because I'm using ancient populations so it's more likely to interpret some of the more northerly stuff as Eastern European. In other fits, the Eastern Euro goes down to 8% (sometimes even lower than that), here's an example (remember Avar should be added to Samaritan, it's only there to improve the fit):

[1] "distance%=0.3129 / distance=0.003129"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Samaritan 52.70
Italian_Bergamo:average 31.55
Lithuanian:average 8.35
Avar:average 7.40


It can even disappear in some fits (also notice how Avar fades away):


[1] "distance%=0.3732 / distance=0.003732"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Druze:average 61
Italian_Bergamo:average 39

Western Jews seem to be mainly Judean/Israelite + Roman/Italian with minor local admixture, the latter varies in the sense that it is inflated in some individuals and nearly absent in others.


FWIW Northern Italians tend to come out very close to Iberians on most calculators, and could possibly be a better proxy for pre-Moorish invasion Iberian ancestry than contemporary Iberians.

North Italians seem to be close to Tuscans first and foremost, and the latter are quite close to Albanians and, in turn, Mainland Greeks. Kind of doubt they're a good proxy for what pre-Moorish Iberia looked like, even the Basque seem to be a better contender.

kingjohn
07-03-2017, 07:07 PM
by the way a moroocan jew took i genea test
https://www.igenea.com/en/home anyway they are using ftdna algoritem
https://www.igenea.com/en/order/basic
he scored:
77% sefhardic

9% iberia

4% west central europe
5% north africa
don't remember the rest .... :(
p.s
so maybe there was huge sefhardic migration to mororoco ....

kingjohn
07-03-2017, 07:47 PM
agamemnon can you check indian jews
or yemenite jews ?
i am very intrested what they would fit
kudos for all your work :)
i also saw that you did iraqi and iranian jews much appricated and they have mesopotamian admixture probably as you said
regards
Adam

Targum
07-03-2017, 07:55 PM
Sefhatic Jews where kicked out of Iberia ~1480AD and this includes Spanish Morocco and Algeria ( oran )..........most went to Netherlands and then to Britain and others through the town of valencia went to Venice ( genoese took them to Nice, and ligurian lands ) , Venice sent them either to Germany with the German merchants or took them to the Levant but the truly wealthy Jews went to ferrara and Tuscany. The rich Jews due to the law in Venice of not allowing usury ( loaning money for profit ) departed for central italy.
So to me sephatic jews in Tuscany should be high , towns like livorno, Pisa and Lucca, .....................Bergamo ( near switzerland and austria ) seems odd,

Be cognizant, that the Sefaradi-from Spain/Portugal element was only one of the modern Italian Jewish community. The Italqim, descendants of original Jews who came from Israel, are the "real" Italian Jews; Some Romaniote (originally Greek Speaking Jews also descendants of original Jews from Israel) lived in certain southern locales, Ashkenazim, as Northern Italy is part of the Ashkenazi core area, and Levantine Jews and N. African Sefaradi migrants.

Principe
07-03-2017, 08:04 PM
Well the Italian admixture often goes up to ~37% in Ashkenazim, it really depends on the populations you're using to proxy the admixture (especially if you're using ancient populations, the contrast tends to be greater). At this point, I think the data suggests Western Jews are mostly Judean (~55% to ~60%) and Roman (~25% to ~35%) in origin. This is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry seems to have been Greek-speaking, still, that's what the data suggests. The Sephardic reference is from Turkey BTW.



Yeah I think the Eastern Euro is inflated by a factor of two, like I said this also depends on the populations used to proxy the admixture, in this case the contrast is far greater because I'm using ancient populations so it's more likely to interpret some of the more northerly stuff as Eastern European. In other fits, the Eastern Euro goes down to 8% (sometimes even lower than that), here's an example (remember Avar should be added to Samaritan, it's only there to improve the fit):

[1] "distance%=0.3129 / distance=0.003129"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Samaritan 52.70
Italian_Bergamo:average 31.55
Lithuanian:average 8.35
Avar:average 7.40


It can even disappear in some fits (also notice how Avar fades away):


[1] "distance%=0.3732 / distance=0.003732"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Druze:average 61
Italian_Bergamo:average 39

Western Jews seem to be mainly Judean/Israelite + Roman/Italian with minor local admixture, the latter varies in the sense that it is inflated in some individuals and nearly absent in others.



North Italians seem to be close to Tuscans first and foremost, and the latter are quite close to Albanians and, in turn, Mainland Greeks. Kind of doubt they're a good proxy for what pre-Moorish Iberia looked like, even the Basque seem to be a better contender.

Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.

Ruderico
07-03-2017, 08:06 PM
FWIW Northern Italians tend to come out very close to Iberians on most calculators, and could possibly be a better proxy for pre-Moorish invasion Iberian ancestry than contemporary Iberians.

So the Moorish period shifted Iberians NW? That doesn't make sense at all

wandering_amorite
07-03-2017, 08:08 PM
So the Moorish invasion shifted Iberians NW? That doesn't make sense at all

I inferred wrong here.

Judith
07-03-2017, 08:28 PM
by the way a moroocan jew took i genea test
https://www.igenea.com/en/home anyway they are using ftdna algoritem
https://www.igenea.com/en/order/basic
he scored:
77% sefhardic

9% iberia

4% west central europe
5% north africa
don't remember the rest .... :(
p.s
so maybe there was huge sefhardic migration to mororoco ....

According to Behar http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002062
there was a very significant number of the Jews from the Spanish expulsion joined the pre-existing community in Morocco
Although the mtdna is only one aspect the total autosomal inheritance the model selected has to explain all of the facts.

Agamemnon
07-03-2017, 11:21 PM
Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.

I've tried this before, this combination yields perfectly reasonable fits actually:

[1] "distance%=0.3045 / distance=0.003045"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.2
Bulgarian:average 23.9
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 17.3
Macedonian:average 16.0
Polish:average 4.5

The problem here though is that Bulgarian and Macedonian could be proxied as Greek + Slavic, and so we have the perfect conditions to enable most of the genuinely recent Eastern European ancestry to hide behind these two populations. I agree with your assertion that identifying Macedonian Greeks as the source of Southern European admixture in Western Jews would make a whole lot of sense... Still, Italian - and more specifically Roman - ancestry does make more sense at this stage (going off the uniparental lineages this makes sense as well, there's a sizeable minority of Jewish R1b-Z56 for example), and while it is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry was Greek-speaking, some alternative scenarios certainly could work, Greek was a lingua franca after all and would've been automatically favoured as the most appropriate language through which Jews (who essentially came from a province where Greek was the language of the administration) and Romans could interact.

In my opinion, another layer of complexity is added by the Italian Beaker in Olalde et al.'s recent paper on the Bell Beakers, while I'm well aware that the PCA suffers from projection bias it's hard to see how this sample could end up plotting anywhere close to contemporary Italians. That's why ancient DNA from the Levant will only solve one part of the riddle (the most important of course), the Mediterranean remains terra incognita from the standpoint of ancient DNA, unfortunately so.


agamemnon can you check indian jews
or yemenite jews ?
i am very intrested what they would fit
kudos for all your work :)
i also saw that you did iraqi and iranian jews much appricated and they have mesopotamian admixture probably as you said
regards
Adam

Here's what Teimanim get:

[1] "distance%=0.2989 / distance=0.002989"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 71.95
Jordan_EBA:average 23.90
Levant_Neolithic:I0867 4.15

[1] "distance%=0.3846 / distance=0.003846"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 67.9
Jordan_EBA:average 32.1

While they do have Jewish ancestry, they seem to owe most of their ancestry to their host population (much like Mizrahi Jews in fact). Here, this is best proxied as Bedouin_B, Yemen's contemporary inhabitants seem to have absorbed additional East African and more generally SSA admixture.

vettor
07-04-2017, 02:45 AM
Aga, good job on the charts and as always your posts are insightful, I have a question have you tried Bulgarian instead of North Italian and Tuscan? If you did, did it produce a similar result? Bulgarian and Albanian seem to be the closest to North Italians on various Gedmatch calcs, do you think it would make more sense that perhaps the European ancestry in Western Jews might actually be Macedonian Greek? Various Hellenistic cities had large Jewish populations, Alexandria's Jewish population accounted for 25% of the city's population.

Laz placed north -Italians with south - french and bulgarians

Labayu
07-04-2017, 10:04 AM
Here's what Teimanim get:

[1] "distance%=0.2989 / distance=0.002989"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 71.95
Jordan_EBA:average 23.90
Levant_Neolithic:I0867 4.15

[1] "distance%=0.3846 / distance=0.003846"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 67.9
Jordan_EBA:average 32.1

While they do have Jewish ancestry, they seem to owe most of their ancestry to their host population (much like Mizrahi Jews in fact). Here, this is best proxied as Bedouin_B, Yemen's contemporary inhabitants seem to have absorbed additional East African and more generally SSA admixture.According to Paul Yule (Himyar: Spätantike im Jemen, Late Antique Yemen 2007), the king of Ḥimyar, Abu-Kariba (r. 390-420 CE) forced all his subjects to convert to Judaism.

kingjohn
07-04-2017, 11:30 AM
it turns out that the most Judean in terms of ancestry are
in western jews
and not in Yemenite jews or mizrachi jews
amazing
do you maybe know why ?
thanks
adam

p.s
if you have Indian jews
i am very interested to see because i think they have huge native indian admixture ....

lukaszM
07-04-2017, 11:36 AM
it turns out that the most Judean in terms of ancestry are
in western jews
and not in Yemenite jews or mizrachi jews
amazing
do you maybe know why ?
thanks
adam

p.s
if you have Indian jews
i am very interested to see because i think they have huge native indian admixture ....

I have individual samples on Gedmatch:

- Azeri Jews
- Georgian Jews
- Iraqi Jews
- Sephardi (including one Moroccan and one Algerian Jew)
- Askhenazi

Kaldo
07-04-2017, 11:36 AM
How can Western Jews be more Judean when they ended up in Europe?

Pylsteen
07-04-2017, 12:08 PM
Mmm.. the only mixture in "Western" Jews seem to have been early, in Southern Europe, and some later in Slavic lands. It probably was the dominant Christian society and their view on Jewry that made intermarriages more difficult; a marginalized group will stick together even more. I don't know how this was in other parts of the world. Of course this should differ between the Sephardi (who had a long time under Moorish rule) and the Ashkenazi.

kingjohn
07-04-2017, 01:32 PM
How can Western Jews be more Judean when they ended up in Europe?

good question don't know :\
but is what the data is showing

p.s
let not forget the iraqi iranian jews were in in Babylon since 500 bc
and maybe they had more chance to absorbed the Mesopotamian alleles we see in agamemmnon anlayses ..{ Assyrian fit and staff}

Agamemnon
07-04-2017, 05:13 PM
According to Paul Yule (Himyar: Spätantike im Jemen, Late Antique Yemen 2007), the king of Ḥimyar, Abu-Kariba (r. 390-420 CE) forced all his subjects to convert to Judaism.

Yes I strongly suspect Teimanim are mainly Himyarite in origin, but others would take issue with that.

Principe
07-04-2017, 07:05 PM
I've tried this before, this combination yields perfectly reasonable fits actually:

[1] "distance%=0.3045 / distance=0.003045"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.2
Bulgarian:average 23.9
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 17.3
Macedonian:average 16.0
Polish:average 4.5

The problem here though is that Bulgarian and Macedonian could be proxied as Greek + Slavic, and so we have the perfect conditions to enable most of the genuinely recent Eastern European ancestry to hide behind these two populations. I agree with your assertion that identifying Macedonian Greeks as the source of Southern European admixture in Western Jews would make a whole lot of sense... Still, Italian - and more specifically Roman - ancestry does make more sense at this stage (going off the uniparental lineages this makes sense as well, there's a sizeable minority of Jewish R1b-Z56 for example), and while it is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry was Greek-speaking, some alternative scenarios certainly could work, Greek was a lingua franca after all and would've been automatically favoured as the most appropriate language through which Jews (who essentially came from a province where Greek was the language of the administration) and Romans could interact.

In my opinion, another layer of complexity is added by the Italian Beaker in Olalde et al.'s recent paper on the Bell Beakers, while I'm well aware that the PCA suffers from projection bias it's hard to see how this sample could end up plotting anywhere close to contemporary Italians. That's why ancient DNA from the Levant will only solve one part of the riddle (the most important of course), the Mediterranean remains terra incognita from the standpoint of ancient DNA, unfortunately so.



Here's what Teimanim get:

[1] "distance%=0.2989 / distance=0.002989"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 71.95
Jordan_EBA:average 23.90
Levant_Neolithic:I0867 4.15

[1] "distance%=0.3846 / distance=0.003846"

Yemenite_Jew:average

BedouinB:average 67.9
Jordan_EBA:average 32.1

While they do have Jewish ancestry, they seem to owe most of their ancestry to their host population (much like Mizrahi Jews in fact). Here, this is best proxied as Bedouin_B, Yemen's contemporary inhabitants seem to have absorbed additional East African and more generally SSA admixture.

Very good points, I eagerly await for the Levant Chalcolithic paper as well as the Mycenaean/Minoan paper I think it will start to clear the picture. For R1b-Z56 it is most likely or definitely Roman the further downstream of Z145 is probably the best candidate for a Roman lineage and according to Wim's chart it is a minor Jewish lineage as well. Aside from that I don't see strong indication of Roman Y in Ashkenazis , do you think its possible that some of the Southern European like ancestry could also be the result of the Philistines? I am very curious to see what Y will come out of the Chalcolithic Levant paper.

Agamemnon
07-04-2017, 11:08 PM
Very good points, I eagerly await for the Levant Chalcolithic paper as well as the Mycenaean/Minoan paper I think it will start to clear the picture. For R1b-Z56 it is most likely or definitely Roman the further downstream of Z145 is probably the best candidate for a Roman lineage and according to Wim's chart it is a minor Jewish lineage as well. Aside from that I don't see strong indication of Roman Y in Ashkenazis , do you think its possible that some of the Southern European like ancestry could also be the result of the Philistines? I am very curious to see what Y will come out of the Chalcolithic Levant paper.

Kind of doubt that. Ironically though, the Philistines might well turn out to be more similar to Western Jews than to Palestinians.

Targum
07-05-2017, 05:06 PM
Kind of doubt that. Ironically though, the Philistines might well turn out to be more similar to Western Jews than to Palestinians.

From a historical point of view it may not be so far-fetched. The proto-Aegean Pelishtim (Philistines) were eventually conquered totally by Israel under the Davidic kings, and since they were not from the seven nations they could have theoretically been assimilated under any view of the Oral Law; at least to the point where some of what later looks like Graeco-Italian soup could have been from them. The story of Shimshon (Samson) shows at least some Jewish guys liked the So. Euro women long before the Judeans sent to Rome and Greek Islands started doing it.

Agamemnon
07-05-2017, 11:01 PM
From a historical point of view it may not be so far-fetched. The proto-Aegean Pelishtim (Philistines) were eventually conquered totally by Israel under the Davidic kings, and since they were not from the seven nations they could have theoretically been assimilated under any view of the Oral Law; at least to the point where some of what later looks like Graeco-Italian soup could have been from them. The story of Shimshon (Samson) shows at least some Jewish guys liked the So. Euro women long before the Judeans sent to Rome and Greek Islands started doing it.

Possible, if they turn out to be similar to modern-day North Italians, Tuscans and Greeks, then this definitely should be considered. However it doesn't explain the presence of typically Italic lineages in Ashkenazim (although they're a minority), keep in mind they could not have been Italic, they're simply too old for that. IMO they should resemble Western Jews either because they're bound to essentially have yielded a similar mixture of Southern European and Levantine or because the Aegean's inhabitants were similar to Western Jews to begin with.

Aquilifer
07-08-2017, 05:50 PM
It's mostly a load of nonsense, I've already mentioned the Das gang's former paper here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6991-Elhaik-and-Ashkenazi-ancestry-Scholarly-infatuation-or-unhealthy-obsession). I tend to view this as an experiment designed to prove that the craziest theories can still get past the peer review process.

Wexler is a crook and a nutbag, his theories are self-defeating (literally), Elhaik is also arguing against the data. There's much to bet that the motivation here is purely political, at least I'm quite sure this is true in Wexler's case.



Haber et al. modeled the Sidon_BA samples as Levant_N + Iran_Chl, this is what Ashkenazi Jews get if I use K7:

[1] "distance%=0.2834 / distance=0.002834"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.50
Italian_Tuscan:average 25.70
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 19.70
Polish:average 13.35
Lithuanian:average 2.75


A very good fit, which is in line with Ashkenazim being 55% to 60% Levantine in origin on average (usually around 57%).

This model fits nicely with Xue et al, who IIRC estimated Central/Eastern European admixture to be ~10-15% in Ashkenazis; I think the rest of their model was 55-60% Levantine and 30% Southern European.

Erik
07-09-2017, 07:13 AM
As incredible as it might sound, Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian, Romaniote, North African, Syrian, Egyptian, etc) seem to have inherited larger chunks of Israelite/Judean ancestry (between 55% and 60% on average)

Does this include the Egyptian Karaites? If I recall correctly the community is Babylonian in origin, and a lot of them look like Iraqi Jews.

Agamemnon
07-09-2017, 05:53 PM
This model fits nicely with Xue et al, who IIRC estimated Central/Eastern European admixture to be ~10-15% in Ashkenazis; I think the rest of their model was 55-60% Levantine and 30% Southern European.

Xue et al.'s model was more along the lines of "50% ME, 34% Southern EU, 8% Western EU, and 8% Eastern EU" or "50% Middle-East, 35% South-EU, 12% East-EU, and 3% West-EU". The authors also stated that "the proportion of the Southern European (presumably pre-bottleneck) ancestry in AJ is between ≈26% to ≈52%, corresponding to [34,61]% ancestry at the time of the early admixture."

This is more consistent with fits using contemporary populations, take this fit I obtained with my father's results for example (remember, Avar should be added to Lebanese here):

[1] "distance%=0.2934 / distance=0.002934"

Lebanese_Christian:average 50.00
Italian_Bergamo:average 36.15
Lithuanian:average 6.95
Avar:average 4.15
Chuvash:average 1.60
French_East:average 1.15

Notice how the Italian decreases in the fits I obtained, for instance if I use the aforementioned combination of Levant_N + Iran_Chl with my father's results here's what I get:

[1] "distance%=0.202 / distance=0.00202"

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 35.50
Italian_Bergamo:average 24.95
Polish:average 16.10
Avar:average 11.40
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 10.50
Chuvash:average 1.55

[1] "distance%=0.2222 / distance=0.002222"

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 34.00
Italian_Bergamo:average 26.40
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 14.45
Lithuanian:average 14.40
Avar:average 7.45
French_East:average 1.90
Chuvash:average 1.40

Same thing here, Avar ought to be added to Levant_N and Iran_Chl (it's here to improve the fit). See how the Italian decreases and the Eastern Euro increases?


Does this include the Egyptian Karaites? If I recall correctly the community is Babylonian in origin, and a lot of them look like Iraqi Jews.

I very much doubt the Karaites will be all that different from their Rabbinical counterpart.

Aquilifer
07-09-2017, 06:47 PM
Xue et al.'s model was more along the lines of "50% ME, 34% Southern EU, 8% Western EU, and 8% Eastern EU" or "50% Middle-East, 35% South-EU, 12% East-EU, and 3% West-EU". The authors also stated that "Therefore, the proportion of the Southern European (presumably pre-bottleneck) ancestry in AJ is between ≈26% to ≈52%, corresponding to [34,61]% ancestry at the time of the early admixture."

This is more consistent with fits using contemporary populations, take this fit I obtained with my father's results for example (remember, Avar should be added to Lebanese here):

[1] "distance%=0.2934 / distance=0.002934"

Lebanese_Christian:average 50.00
Italian_Bergamo:average 36.15
Lithuanian:average 6.95
Avar:average 4.15
Chuvash:average 1.60
French_East:average 1.15

Notice how the Italian decreases in the fits I obtained, for instance if I use the aforementioned combination of Levant_N + Iran_Chl with my father's results here's what I get:

[1] "distance%=0.202 / distance=0.00202"

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 35.50
Italian_Bergamo:average 24.95
Polish:average 16.10
Avar:average 11.40
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 10.50
Chuvash:average 1.55

[1] "distance%=0.2222 / distance=0.002222"

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 34.00
Italian_Bergamo:average 26.40
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 14.45
Lithuanian:average 14.40
Avar:average 7.45
French_East:average 1.90
Chuvash:average 1.40

Same thing here, Avar ought to be added to Levant_N and Iran_Chl (it's here to improve the fit). See how the Italian decreases and the Eastern Euro increases?



I very much doubt the Karaites will be all that different from their Rabbinical counterpart.

So which would be a better proxy for the Mid Eastern in AJs; Levant_N + Iran_Chl or Lebanese Christian? The first example fits better with the "50% ME, 34% south EU, 8% western EU, 8% eastern EU" but the third fits better with the 50 ME-35 SEU-12-EEU-3 WEU model. The distance seems slightly closer using the ancient samples however.


Kind of doubt that. Ironically though, the Philistines might well turn out to be more similar to Western Jews than to Palestinians.

Yeah, I too think the southern European is just that, whether it came from Romans, Greeks, or Iberians. It's too bad there isn't any data on Romaniote Jews though (unless there is some that I'm not aware of).

Agamemnon
07-09-2017, 09:26 PM
So which would be a better proxy for the Mid Eastern in AJs; Levant_N + Iran_Chl or Lebanese Christian? The first example fits better with the "50% ME, 34% south EU, 8% western EU, 8% eastern EU" but the third fits better with the 50 ME-35 SEU-12-EEU-3 WEU model. The distance seems slightly closer using the ancient samples however.

The ancient fit makes more sense, but IMO only because the Israelites also were mainly Levant_N + Iran_Chl in origin. I'm eagerly awaiting LBA data from the Levant, quite frankly.



Yeah, I too think the southern European is just that, whether it came from Romans, Greeks, or Iberians. It's too bad there isn't any data on Romaniote Jews though (unless there is some that I'm not aware of).

It's basically either Italian/Roman or Greek at this stage methinks. I've seen a few Romaniote samples here and there, they're not very different from Italian and Sephardic Jews.

Erik
07-21-2017, 04:07 PM
I suspect the Eastern European is inflated by a factor of ~2 here. Anyway, this is what Sephardim get:

[1] "distance%=0.175 / distance=0.00175"

Sephardic_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 36.70
Italian_Tuscan:average 24.30
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 20.10
Italian_Bergamo:average 10.85
Spanish:average 6.35
Avar:average 1.70

What is a Sephardi exactly (in terms of this sample)? I assume it's referring to members of the S&P community?

Agamemnon
07-21-2017, 05:39 PM
What is a Sephardi exactly (in terms of this sample)? I assume it's referring to members of the S&P community?

Sephardim from Turkey IIRC.

AJL
07-21-2017, 06:16 PM
I very much doubt the Karaites will be all that different from their Rabbinical counterpart.

There is more mtDNA diversity and less yDNA diversity among Karaites. Not too many Karaites have taken autosomal tests, and for those who have, results seem to be about half-half Middle Eastern and Southeastern European, give or take a few minor components in the 2-3% range. So, overall not very different.

Agamemnon
07-21-2017, 06:24 PM
There is more mtDNA diversity and less yDNA diversity among Karaites. Not too many Karaites have taken autosomal tests, and for those who have, results seem to be about half-half Middle Eastern and Southeastern European, give or take a few minor components in the 2-3% range. So, overall not very different.

I'd expect as much, after all there was a time when Karaites were a sizeable part of the Jewish population (including in Eastern Europe), they didn't just vanish.

Erik
07-21-2017, 06:31 PM
There is more mtDNA diversity and less yDNA diversity among Karaites. Not too many Karaites have taken autosomal tests, and for those who have, results seem to be about half-half Middle Eastern and Southeastern European, give or take a few minor components in the 2-3% range. So, overall not very different.

Any source for this? And which kind of Karaites are we talking about?

AJL
07-21-2017, 06:43 PM
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/karaites.html

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 02:29 PM
Modeling Jews as mixes of ~260 ancient samples, using K36:

Samaritans (average):

[1] "distance%=4.1114 / distance=0.041114"

MENA:

BA_Levant_I1730 35.80 %
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b 33.00 %
CA_Iran_I1665b 14.10 %
EN_Anatolia_Tep2 9.60 %
BA_Mycenaean_I9041 4.55 %
BA_Anatolia_I2499 2.85 %
EBA_Armenia_I1658 0.10 %

Sephardic Jews (average):

[1] "distance%=1.6159 / distance=0.016159"

MENA:

IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26 18.15
N_Levant_AinGhazal5 16.20
BA_Levant_I1730 10.55
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b 8.45
CA_Iran_I1665b 3.80
EBA_Armenia_I1635 3.15
N_Levant_AinGhazal4 3.00
LBA_Armenia_RISE397 1.90
BA_Levant_I1705 1.50
LBA_Armenia_RISE412 0.45
LBA_Armenia_RISE396 0.40
EBA_Armenia_I1658 0.30

European:

BA_Mycenaean_I9041 27.15
IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22 2.60
BA_Portugal_I0207 1.00
MBA_Germany_RISE471 0.65
Ancestral_North_African 0.40
IA_CelticBriton_HI1 0.35

Ashkenazi Jews (average):

[1] "distance%=3.7254 / distance=0.037254"

MENA:

IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b 27.50
LBA_Armenia_RISE397 8.75
CA_Iran_I1665b 7.05
LBA_Armenia_RISE396 3.25
N_Levant_AinGhazal5 3.05
CA_Iran_I1662 2.35
EBA_Armenia_I1658 1.05

European:

BA_Mycenaean_I9041 26.70
LBA_Hungary_BR2 9.15
IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22 4.55
IA_Wielbark_Kow55 2.20
EMA_Czechia_RISE568 2.10
BA_Potapovka_I0246 1.65

Central Asian:

IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9 0.50
IA_Kazakhstan_Is2 0.15

List of samples used:

Aborigine_Australia
Amerind_Americas
Amerind_Bolivia
Amerind_Clovis-Anzick1
Amerind_Colombia
Amerind_KennewickMan
Amerind_Mexico-Pericues
Amerind_Mikmaq_MARC1492
Amerind_North-America
Amerind_Peru_Chachapoya
Amerind_Sioux_Dakota
Amerind_South-America
BA_Afanasievo_RISE507
BA_Afanasievo_RISE509
BA_Afanasievo_RISE510
BA_Anatolia_I2499
BA_Anatolia_Kum4
BA_Andronovo_RISE500
BA_Andronovo_RISE503
BA_Andronovo_RISE505
BA_CreteArmenoi_I9123
BA_Denmark_RISE47
BA_Hungary_BR1
BA_Hungary_BR1b
BA_Hungary_RISE247
BA_Hungary_RISE254
BA_Hungary_RISE349
BA_Hungary_RISE371
BA_Hungary_RISE373
BA_Hungary_RISE374
BA_Hungary_RISE479
BA_Hungary_RISE480
BA_Hungary_RISE483
BA_Hungary_RISE484
BA_Iberia_ATP2
BA_Iberia_ATP9
BA_Ireland_Rathlin1
BA_Karasuk_RISE492
BA_Karasuk_RISE493
BA_Karasuk_RISE497
BA_Levant_I0867
BA_Levant_I1705
BA_Levant_I1706
BA_Levant_I1730
BA_Mezhovskaya_RISE523
BA_Mezhovskaya_RISE524
BA_Mezhovskaya_RISE525
BA_Minoan_I0070
BA_Minoan_I0073
BA_Mycenaean_I9006
BA_Mycenaean_I9010
BA_Mycenaean_I9033
BA_Mycenaean_I9041
BA_Okunevo_RISE515
BA_Okunevo_RISE516
BA_Poltavka_I0126
BA_Poltavka_I0432
BA_Poltavka_I0440
BA_Portugal_ERR1524174
BA_Portugal_I0207
BA_Portugal_MonteGato
BA_Portugal_TorreVelha
BA_Portugal_TorreVelhaB
BA_Potapovka_I0246
BA_Potapovka_I0419
BA_Sintashta_RISE386
BA_Sintashta_RISE391
BA_Sintashta_RISE394
BA_Sintashta_RISE395
BA_Srubnaya_I0232
BA_Srubnaya_I0234
BA_Srubnaya_I0235
BA_Srubnaya_I0358
BA_Srubnaya_I0359
BA_Srubnaya_I0423
BA_Srubnaya_I0430
BA_Sweden_RISE175
BA_Sweden_RISE207
BA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE577
BA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586
BA_Unetice_Czechia_RISE586b
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0047
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0047b
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0114
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0115
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0116
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0117
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0164
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0164b
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0803
BA_Unetice_Germany_I0803b
BA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE109
BA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE150
BA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154
BA_Unetice_Silesia_RISE154b
BB_Czechia_RISE566
BB_Czechia_RISE567
BB_Germany_I0058
BB_Germany_I0059
BB_Germany_I0060
BB_Germany_I0112
BB_Germany_I0113
BB_Germany_I0806
BB_Germany_RISE560
BB_Germany_RISE563
CA_Iberia_ATP16
CA_Iberia_ATP2
CA_Iberia_I1274
CA_Iberia_I1277
CA_Iberia_I1280
CA_Iberia_I1281
CA_Iberia_I1300
CA_Iberia_I1303
CA_Iberia_I1314
CA_Iran_I1661a
CA_Iran_I1661b
CA_Iran_I1662
CA_Iran_I1665
CA_Iran_I1665b
CA_Iran_I1670
CA_Iran_I1674
CA_MarmaraSea_I1584
CA_Remedello_Italy_RISE486
CA_Remedello_Italy_RISE487
CA_Remedello_Italy_RISE489
CCC_Estonia_MA975
CWC_Denmark_RISE61
CWC_Denmark_RISE71
CWC_Estonia_MA826
CWC_Estonia_MA969
CWC_Estonia_MA971
CWC_Estonia_MA973
CWC_Estonia_RISE
CWC_Germany_I0049
CWC_Germany_I0103
CWC_Germany_I0104
CWC_Germany_I0106
CWC_Germany_I0108
CWC_Germany_I0111
CWC_Germany_I0550
CWC_Sweden_RISE179
CWC_Sweden_RISE94
CWC_Sweden_RISE97
CWC_Sweden_RISE98
EBA_Armenia_I1633
EBA_Armenia_I1635
EBA_Armenia_I1658
EBA_Cuiavia_PLN17
EBA_Russia_RISE555
EBA_Wielkopolska_RISE431
EMA_AngloSaxon_HS1
EMA_AngloSaxon_HS2
EMA_Czechia_RISE568
EMA_Czechia_RISE569
EMA_Northumbria_NO3423
EMA_Poland_Mar7
EMA_Poland_Niem34
EN_Anatolia_Tep2
EN_Anatolia_Tep3
EN_Iberia_I0409
EN_Iberia_I0410
EN_Iberia_I0413
HG_Ethiopia_Mota
HG_Iran_I1293
HG_Karelia_I0211
HG_Latvia_HG1
HG_Latvia_HG3
HG_MOS5_Devil's_Gate
HG_Ukraine_HG1
IA_Altai_RISE600
IA_BritishCelt_6DRIF23
IA_CelticBriton_HI1
IA_CelticBriton_HI4
IA_Celto-German_3DRIF16
IA_Celto-German_6DRIF3
IA_Egypt_JK2134
IA_Egypt_JK2888
IA_Egypt_JK2911
IA_Egypt_JK2911b
IA_GaelicCelt_6DRIF18
IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22
IA_Hungary_IR1
IA_Iran_F38
IA_Kazakhstan_Is2
IA_Kazakhstan_Ze6
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26
IA_LevantEgypt_3DRIF26b
IA_PictishBrit_6DRIF21
IA_Sarmatian_I0574
IA_Sarmatian_I0575
IA_Sarmatian_I0575b
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0576
IA_ScythianAldyBel_I0577
IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9
IA_ScythianPazyryk_I0563
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247
IA_ScythianSamara_I0247b
IA_Sweden_RISE174
IA_Wielbark_Kow22
IA_Wielbark_Kow25
IA_Wielbark_Kow45
IA_Wielbark_Kow55
IA_Wielbark_Mas5
Inuit_Canada
Lapita_Tonga_CP30
Lapita_Vanuatu_Il369
Lapita_Vanuatu_Il370
LBA_Armenia_RISE396
LBA_Armenia_RISE397
LBA_Armenia_RISE407
LBA_Armenia_RISE408
LBA_Armenia_RISE412
LBA_Baikal_RISE554
LBA_Denmark_RISE276
LBA_Germany_I0099
LBA_Hungary_BR2
LBA_Sudovia_RISE598
LMA_Iran_I1955
LN_Greece_Klei10
LN_Iran_I1671
LN_Iran_I1671b
LN_Portugal_Monte-Canelas1
LN1_Latvia_Zvej28
Malta_Siberia
MBA_Armenia_I1656
MBA_Armenia_RISE413
MBA_Armenia_RISE416
MBA_Armenia_RISE423
MBA_Germany_RISE471
MEG_Iberia_I0405
MEG_Iberia_I0406
MEG_Iberia_I0406b
MEG_Iberia_I0407
MEG_Iberia_I0408
MEG_Ireland_Ballynahatty
Melanesian
MN1_Latvia_Zvej26
N_Anatolia_Bar31
N_Anatolia_Bar8
N_Anatolia_I0707
N_Anatolia_I0708
N_Anatolia_I0709
N_Greece_I2937
N_Greece_Rev5
N_Iran_I1290
N_Iran_I1945
N_Levant_AinGhazal1
N_Levant_AinGhazal2
N_Levant_AinGhazal3
N_Levant_AinGhazal4
N_Levant_AinGhazal5
N1_DnieprDonets_Vovnigi2
Natufian_Israel_I1072
Natufian_Israel_Merged
Paleo-Eskimo_Saqqaq
Polynesian_Bot15
Polynesian_Bot17

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 02:38 PM
Khazar ancestry detected:


Central Asian:

IA_ScythianPazyryk_Be9 0.50
IA_Kazakhstan_Is2 0.15

Less than one % but still.

wandering_amorite
08-15-2017, 02:47 PM
Khazar ancestry detected:



Less than one % but still.

Thanks for this. One endemic problem w/the lowbrow discussion of Khazar theories is that between the kooks and the debunkers, the fact that Ashkenazim seem to preserve a tiny trace of Khazar ancestry tends to get lost. Are the IA Central Asian samples predominantly East Asian?

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 03:44 PM
Are the IA Central Asian samples predominantly East Asian?

Scythian Pazyryk Be9 is about 1/2 East Asian:

https://s3.postimg.org/j1z84q183/dnaland.jpg

And Kazakhstan Is2 is mostly West Eurasian:

https://s3.postimg.org/eh8i5p90j/dnalands.jpg

^^^
According to Ancestral Journeys, Is2 is Kazakhstan (not Russia):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

kingjohn
08-15-2017, 04:26 PM
who is this guy IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22
4.55 in aschenazi
where he was found which culture care to share ?
regards
adam

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 05:18 PM
who is this guy IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22
4.55 in aschenazi
where he was found which culture care to share ?
regards
adam

Gladiator from York, but he looks like a continental Celt:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11039-Roman-era-gladiators-from-York-in-K36&p=255339&viewfull=1#post255339

http://i.imgur.com/2XqT7Hs.png

Pylsteen
08-15-2017, 05:20 PM
who is this guy IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22
4.55 in aschenazi
where he was found which culture care to share ?


He was one of the Roman gladiators found at Driffield Terrace, York. Likely Gaulish or some say Briton. Maybe his type of ancestry came in the Ashkenazi pool when they settled in the cities along the Rhine.

wandering_amorite
08-15-2017, 05:46 PM
He was one of the Roman gladiators found at Driffield Terrace, York. Likely Gaulish or some say Briton. Maybe his type of ancestry came in the Ashkenazi pool when they settled in the cities along the Rhine.

I've always intuited that the West-Central European component in the Ashkenazi gene pool is underestimated. Jury is still out, but this is interesting.

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 06:17 PM
Maybe his type of ancestry came in the Ashkenazi pool when they settled in the cities along the Rhine.

I guess it could be from areas along the Rhine, but some of it could also be from North Italy.

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 06:19 PM
I've always intuited that the West-Central European component in the Ashkenazi gene pool is underestimated. Jury is still out, but this is interesting.

I wonder where is this Hungary Bronze Age BR2 type of ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews from.

BR2 ancestry is common among Slavic populations, but some of it can also be Non-Slavic.

kingjohn
08-15-2017, 06:25 PM
European:

BA_Mycenaean_I9041 26.70
LBA_Hungary_BR2 9.15
IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22 4.55
IA_Wielbark_Kow55 2.20
EMA_Czechia_RISE568 2.10 maybe central european ancestry Poland very logical as the eastern european admixture in aschenazi is mainly polish ?
BA_Potapovka_I0246 1.65

regards
adam

Tomenable
08-15-2017, 06:27 PM
RISE568 and RISE569 are Early Czech Slavs:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

kingjohn
08-15-2017, 07:09 PM
RISE568 and RISE569 are Early Czech Slavs:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

thanks ,
ok so it is central european ancestry
2.2+ 2.10=4.3 % Poland and Czechia in central Europe geographically speaking
regards
adam

p.s
weird that the european admixture is that low in Sephardi they got 2.6% the gaulish dude + 1% ba portugal = 3.6% european very low
the Mycenaean is borderline european

wandering_amorite
08-15-2017, 07:46 PM
I'm sure Mycenean is eating up a lot of Italian.

alexfritz
08-15-2017, 08:28 PM
I guess it could be from areas along the Rhine, but some of it could also be from North Italy.

doubtful judging by the tuscan result; the IA_GaulishCelt_6DRIF22 seems more like a roman era slave infusion in tuscans/italians themselves; and given that is what 6DRIF22 actually was (a roman era slave) might fit; mycenae on the other hand as broadly mediterranean could lead to north italy;

lukaszM
08-15-2017, 08:32 PM
I'm sure Askhenazis gather some ancestry from Rhine Valley. It is visible in many of them, reflecting "Borreby " traits like large head, wide face, concave nose and reddish or auburn hair (in their case usually curly).

They couldn't aquired those traits in Italy or Poland...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LVGPXzZ9tS0/Vq4oKGIBlEI/AAAAAAAAC5o/uYtR2pbQyBU/s1600/Seth%2Brogan%2Bjewish%2Bjesus.jpg

lukaszM
08-15-2017, 08:35 PM
Askhenazis have also for example In k36 quite large share of North Sea and North Atlantic, also they must gathered it in Westen Europe.

wandering_amorite
08-15-2017, 10:50 PM
I'm sure Askhenazis gather some ancestry from Rhine Valley. It is visible in many of them, reflecting "Borreby " traits like large head, wide face, concave nose and reddish or auburn hair (in their case usually curly).

They couldn't aquired those traits in Italy or Poland...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LVGPXzZ9tS0/Vq4oKGIBlEI/AAAAAAAAC5o/uYtR2pbQyBU/s1600/Seth%2Brogan%2Bjewish%2Bjesus.jpg

This has been my intuition for a long time.

Tomenable
08-16-2017, 12:51 AM
doubtful judging by the tuscan result

But Tuscany is not really North Italy, it is closer to Central Italy. Celts lived in North Italy.

Sikeliot
08-16-2017, 12:57 AM
I'm sure Mycenean is eating up a lot of Italian.

Considering the Mycenaeans were in some ways genetically closer to many modern day Italians than to modern Greeks, I would say so.

John Doe
08-16-2017, 01:13 AM
Well the Italian admixture often goes up to ~37% in Ashkenazim, it really depends on the populations you're using to proxy the admixture (especially if you're using ancient populations, the contrast tends to be greater). At this point, I think the data suggests Western Jews are mostly Judean (~55% to ~60%) and Roman (~25% to ~35%) in origin. This is hard to reconcile with the fact that Roman Jewry seems to have been Greek-speaking, still, that's what the data suggests. The Sephardic reference is from Turkey BTW.



Yeah I think the Eastern Euro is inflated by a factor of two, like I said this also depends on the populations used to proxy the admixture, in this case the contrast is far greater because I'm using ancient populations so it's more likely to interpret some of the more northerly stuff as Eastern European. In other fits, the Eastern Euro goes down to 8% (sometimes even lower than that), here's an example (remember Avar should be added to Samaritan, it's only there to improve the fit):

[1] "distance%=0.3129 / distance=0.003129"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Samaritan 52.70
Italian_Bergamo:average 31.55
Lithuanian:average 8.35
Avar:average 7.40


It can even disappear in some fits (also notice how Avar fades away):


[1] "distance%=0.3732 / distance=0.003732"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Druze:average 61
Italian_Bergamo:average 39

Western Jews seem to be mainly Judean/Israelite + Roman/Italian with minor local admixture, the latter varies in the sense that it is inflated in some individuals and nearly absent in others.



North Italians seem to be close to Tuscans first and foremost, and the latter are quite close to Albanians and, in turn, Mainland Greeks. Kind of doubt they're a good proxy for what pre-Moorish Iberia looked like, even the Basque seem to be a better contender.

What you're saying is that the Greek source of the Euro ancestry of AJs is possibly incorrect? But what about the Mycanean similarity to AJs?

John Doe
08-16-2017, 01:17 AM
Yes I strongly suspect Teimanim are mainly Himyarite in origin, but others would take issue with that.

Try and tell it to a Yemeni Jew in Israel, you'll get a free black eye xD

Sikeliot
08-16-2017, 01:21 AM
What your saying is that the Greek source of the Euro ancestry of AJs is possibly incorrect? But what about the Mycanean similarity to AJs?

Mycenaeans plot with Jews on a PCA plot but when you break down their components on GEDmatch you see it is by coincidence and the components differ a lot. Mycenaeans were mostly Sardinian-like and Caucasian/CHG.

kingjohn
08-16-2017, 03:10 AM
I'm sure Askhenazis gather some ancestry from Rhine Valley. It is visible in many of them, reflecting "Borreby " traits like large head, wide face, concave nose and reddish or auburn hair (in their case usually curly).

They couldn't aquired those traits in Italy or Poland...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LVGPXzZ9tS0/Vq4oKGIBlEI/AAAAAAAAC5o/uYtR2pbQyBU/s1600/Seth%2Brogan%2Bjewish%2Bjesus.jpg

he is half non jewish
his father his non jewish of British ancestry
that's why he look like that he is not full aschenazi
but i agree with you that the north -Atlantic and north sea in some aschenazi came from northern source
probably on the Rhine .
or maybe even Britain Jews were in Britain from 1066- 1290 when they expelled and many came to Poland later.
regards
adam

p.s
sorry my mistake he is full jewish
http://ethnicelebs.com/seth-rogen

fished
08-16-2017, 09:02 PM
he is half non jewish
his father his non jewish of British ancestry
that's why he look like that he is not full aschenazi
but i agree with you that the north -Atlantic and north sea in some aschenazi came from northern source
probably on the Rhine .
or maybe even Britain Jews were in Britain from 1066- 1290 when they expelled and many came to Poland later.
regards
adam

p.s
sorry my mistake he is full jewish
http://ethnicelebs.com/seth-rogen

I have quite a few full Ashkenazi friends who pass for typical Anglo-Saxon Americans on an everyday basis. And there's also plenty of full Ashkenazi celebrities who have much more unambiguous North European influence than Seth Rogen, like Erin Heatherton, Ian Ziering, or Jonathan Lipnicki.

All this just goes to show that genotype does not always equal phenotype, as you can see in these Israeli Haredim, who almost certainly have a much higher frequency of light hair and ruddy skin than either their Levantine or Mediterranean ancestors, perhaps due to the founder effect.

18191
18192

Agamemnon
08-16-2017, 09:43 PM
What you're saying is that the Greek source of the Euro ancestry of AJs is possibly incorrect? But what about the Mycanean similarity to AJs?

At this point, considering the Bronze Age Greeks we've just seen, I'm pretty certain the source of European admixture in Western Jews will turn out to be Italian or Roman for the most part. As for the Mycenaeans, they fall into the East Mediterranean genetic continuum alongside South Italians, Sicilians, Aegean Greeks... And Ashkenazi Jews. From a basal standpoint, they're near-identical and could be considered a single population in fact, but they're similar for different reasons. So, for example, while my father can be modeled as +80% Mycenaean (all decent fits BTW):

[1] "distance%=0.3833 / distance=0.003833"

Mycenaean:I9006 91.8
Andronovo_Kytmanovo:RISE503 6.0
Scythian_ZevakinoChilikta:IS2 2.2

[1] "distance%=0.5131 / distance=0.005131"

Mycenaean:I9006 93.05
Andronovo_Kytmanovo:RISE505 3.50
Sintashta_Stepnoe:RISE392 2.30
Srubnaya_outlier_Spiridonovka:I0354 1.15

[1] "distance%=0.5333 / distance=0.005333"

Mycenaean:I9006 93.00
Sintashta_Bulanovo:average 5.25
Srubnaya_outlier_Spiridonovka:I0354 1.75

The actual reason why he is so similar to them from a basal standpoint is because he, like most Ashkenazi Jews, is a mixture of principally Levantine and Italian (with some minor Eastern European) and that makes him fall right into the East Mediterranean continuum, not because his ancestors were Greek converts to Judaism. Accordingly, the fits where he is proxied as Levant_N + Iran_Chl are much more convincing. What makes them so similar is the fact that these populations derive most of their ancestry from the EEF/ANF/LNF/LHG continuum with additional Iran_Chl type admixture as well as additional steppe admixture. So yeah, the Greeks can be discarded as the source of admixture at this stage, they're simply too close to Western Jews to be considered potential contenders.

One of the implications here is that the Philistines are probably going to resemble the Mycenaeans very closely, in a bizarre twist of fate this means that they'll also be closer to Ashkenazi Jews than to modern-day Palestinian Arabs (who, in turn, might well be closer to the Israelites than Ashkenazi Jews).


Try and tell it to a Yemeni Jew in Israel, you'll get a free black eye xD

I troll only on the internet ;)


Mycenaeans plot with Jews on a PCA plot but when you break down their components on GEDmatch you see it is by coincidence and the components differ a lot. Mycenaeans were mostly Sardinian-like and Caucasian/CHG.

The Mycenaeans were mostly Minoan-like (so Greek_N + Anatolia_BA), the only major difference is ~20% Sintashta-like admixture.

Shamash
08-16-2017, 09:52 PM
Try and tell it to a Yemeni Jew in Israel, you'll get a free black eye xD

That's exactly what the data shows us at the moment! Even the only Yemeni Jewish sample with Levitical background is very likely the descendant of a Himyarite convert IMO.

That's my working hypothesis at least until a FGC3723+ Israelite aDNA pops up from somewhere... :P

Agamemnon
08-16-2017, 09:53 PM
That's exactly what the data shows us at the moment! Even the only Yemeni jewish sample with levitical background is very likely the descendant of a Himyarite convert IMO.

I'd still follow his advice if I were you ;)

wandering_amorite
08-16-2017, 10:04 PM
I have quite a few full Ashkenazi friends who pass for typical Anglo-Saxon Americans on an everyday basis. And there's also plenty of full Ashkenazi celebrities who have much more unambiguous North European influence than Seth Rogen, like Erin Heatherton, Ian Ziering, or Jonathan Lipnicki.

All this just goes to show that genotype does not always equal phenotype, as you can see in these Israeli Haredim, who almost certainly have a much higher frequency of light hair and ruddy skin than either their Levantine or Mediterranean ancestors, perhaps due to the founder effect.

18191
18192

My whole life, I've wondered: are Ashkenazi Haredim lighter than the general Ashkenazi population (founder effect, convert zeal, who knows)? Or is it a matter of selection bias: I hardly ever code pasty-faced blond/auburn-haired people as Jewish, which means that in a crowd without religious garb, I *only* pick out the Adam Sandlers, the Allen Ginsbergs, and the John Turturros as Jewish—whereas, dress them up in Haredi garb, I won't leave the light ones out?

Sikeliot
08-16-2017, 10:06 PM
At this point, considering the Bronze Age Greeks we've just seen, I'm pretty certain the source of European admixture in Western Jews will turn out to be Italian or Roman for the most part. As for the Mycenaeans, they fall into the East Mediterranean genetic continuum alongside South Italians, Sicilians, Aegean Greeks... And Ashkenazi Jews.


On a PCA plot, yes. On GEDmatch, no. I have demonstrated this.

What I do think, however, is we will find that the Sicanian people of Sicily/Malta were very similar to Mycenaeans and Minoans.

Awale
08-16-2017, 10:19 PM
All this just goes to show that genotype does not always equal phenotype, as you can see in these Israeli Haredim, who almost certainly have a much higher frequency of light hair and ruddy skin than either their Levantine or Mediterranean ancestors, perhaps due to the founder effect.

That's interesting considering Agamemnon's papa looks pretty... Mediterranean, shall I say. He'd never pass as a Northern European in my opinion, neither would Aga's gramps or great-gramps, the latter kinda looks like Saddam, in fact. :lol: I've seen various Ashkenazi Jews who also look, well, pretty "Mediterranean". I just always assume the ones who look really North-Euro are recently admixed (i.e. 1/4 or more some sort of non-South European) and I'm often not wrong but there are interesting cases like what you and Amorite have outlined, I suppose. I mean, there's a reason a Sikeliot sometimes used to point out phenotypic similarities between Western Jews (Ashkenazim included) and Sicilians; the similar genotype does sometimes result in a similar phenotype but there are several exceptions due to what I assume would be selection. I.e. Copts and certain Arabians aren't so different in terms of their basal structure yet they look pretty easily discernible from a phenotypic point-of-view (at least to me) due to obviously different genetic histories that got them the way they are now.

Eh, but phenotypic stuff is generally pointless to discuss, in my humble opinion, when it's not in the form of a serious craniofacial study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/) or an actual study on pigmentation (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912) or what have you. It all just turns into a lot of inevitable subjectivity. Notice how much of what I've said is rather anecdotal, for example.

Agamemnon
08-16-2017, 10:25 PM
On a PCA plot, yes. On GEDmatch, no. I have demonstrated this.

I don't know why you're insisting on using Gedmatch in this context, I've said this before and I'll say it again: It's like reading a book upside down.


What I do think, however, is we will find that the Sicanian people of Sicily/Malta were very similar to Mycenaeans and Minoans.

I'll believe it when I see it, quite frankly.

wandering_amorite
08-16-2017, 10:26 PM
That's interesting considering Agamemnon's papa looks pretty... Mediterranean, shall I say. He'd never pass as a Northern European in my opinion, neither would Aga's gramps or great-gramps, the latter kinda looks like Saddam, in fact. :lol: I've seen various Ashkenazi Jews who also look, well, pretty "Mediterranean". I just always assume the ones who look really North-Euro are recently admixed (i.e. 1/4 or more some sort of non-South European) and I'm often not wrong but there are interesting cases like what you and Amorite have outlined, I suppose. I mean, there's a reason a Sikeliot sometimes used to point out phenotypic similarities between Western Jews (Ashkenazim included) and Sicilians; the similar genotype does sometimes result in a similar phenotype but there are several exceptions due to what I assume would be selection. I.e. Copts and certain Arabians aren't so different in terms of their basal structure yet they look pretty easily discernible from a phenotypic point-of-view (at least to me) due to obviously different genetic histories that got them the way they are now.

Eh, but phenotypic stuff is generally pointless to discuss, in my humble opinion, when it's not in the form of a serious craniofacial study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/) or an actual study on pigmentation (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912) or what have you. It all just turns into a lot of inevitable subjectivity. Notice how much of what I've said is rather anecdotal, for example.

Yes, I've been mistaken for everything from French to Nepali—only reason being that my Neolithic ancestors slept with everyone. Latching onto phenotypes is something people do because it's easy and intuitive—and because few people know just how much better we can do in terms of generating ancestry-relevant information. I don't sincerely know what I look most like anymore, other than that it's not at all a shock given my GEDmatch results.

Agamemnon
08-16-2017, 11:01 PM
Yes, I've been mistaken for everything from French to Nepali—only reason being that my Neolithic ancestors slept with everyone. Latching onto phenotypes is something people do because it's easy and intuitive—and because few people know just how much better we can do in terms of generating ancestry-relevant information. I don't sincerely know what I look most like anymore, other than that it's not at all a shock given my GEDmatch results.

You look pretty Jewish to me.

wandering_amorite
08-16-2017, 11:12 PM
I actually don't get that too often from people w/o access to my name or cultural context! Yesterday an American girl at my hostel told me, "You look too tan to be Jewish", whatever that means. A Moroccan Israeli recently told me I looked Spanish or Portuguese, but I'm in Portugal and don't think that's particularly true. Several Syrian and Lebanese folks in Turkey + Lebanon told me that I looked like a nephew or cousin. And at my Irish-Italian friend's wedding recently, an Italian cousin spontaneously asked me, "You're Italian, right?"

Sikeliot
08-16-2017, 11:49 PM
I'll believe it when I see it, quite frankly.

What else would they have been like?

I just know despite the PCA position, most of southern Italians' ancestry is not Mycenaean. If they were truly identical they'd come up similar on GEDmatch, and they do not.

But we see that even 30% of non-Mycenaean ancestry was sufficient to move Greeks away from that cluster. I am still perplexed about why Mycenaeans and Greeks have the same amount of SW Asian but wildly different amounts of West Med.

Principe
08-16-2017, 11:59 PM
I actually don't get that too often from people w/o access to my name or cultural context! Yesterday an American girl at my hostel told me, "You look too tan to be Jewish", whatever that means. A Moroccan Israeli recently told me I looked Spanish or Portuguese, but I'm in Portugal and don't think that's particularly true. Several Syrian and Lebanese folks in Turkey + Lebanon told me that I looked like a nephew or cousin. And at my Irish-Italian friend's wedding recently, an Italian cousin spontaneously asked me, "You're Italian, right?"

There is a shared look between Italians and Jews, many Italians can pass for Jews and vice versa, three really good examples of Jews who look Italian are Jerry Stiller, James Caan and the late Don Rickles.

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 12:03 AM
There is a shared look between Italians and Jews, many Italians can pass for Jews and vice versa, three really good examples of Jews who look Italian are Jerry Stiller, James Caan and the late Don Rickles.

John Turturro, Michael Imperioli...

My father, on the other hand, looks much more Greek than Italian. FWIW, he's my more "West Asian" parent.

Principe
08-17-2017, 12:09 AM
John Turturro, Michael Imperioli...

My father, on the other hand, looks much more Greek than Italian. FWIW, he's my more "West Asian" parent.

Exactly there is many examples on both sides, there's a reason why in so many mob movies that have Italian actors playing Jewish mobsters and Jewish actors playing Italian mobsters, its not only mob movies but its a good example :laugh: Greeks too are in this mix, just look at the cast of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

alexfritz
08-17-2017, 12:13 AM
what i have noticed is that a young dustin hoffman and a young al pacino are not seperatable;

Agamemnon
08-17-2017, 12:19 AM
what i have noticed is that a young dustin hoffman and a young al pacino are not seperatable;

My father looks very similar to both of them, though he looks even more similar to Patrick Bruel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Bruel) (who is of Algerian Jewish descent). In fact, he crossed his path in Paris once, they both stared at each other because they look so similar, then they kept walking as if nothing had happened (I find this story absolutely hilarious because his colleagues used to call him "Patrick Bruel" at work).

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 12:49 AM
John Turturro, Michael Imperioli...

My father, on the other hand, looks much more Greek than Italian. FWIW, he's my more "West Asian" parent.

Do you know this from a genetic point of view? I'd be curious to see what he looks like.

My experience is (southern) Italians and Jews look similar, and Greeks overall do not. I think Greeks have an Eastern European sort of vibe that the other two lack, and look less influenced by Levantines.


Greeks too are in this mix, just look at the cast of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

Modern day mainland Greeks have little to do with southern Italians and Jews given all of their Slavic, Albanian, and Pontic ancestry. Also, it is worth noting that most of the cast aren't Greek. Lainie Kazan who played the mother is in fact Jewish, their cousin is portrayed by an Italian American, and Aunt Voula is played by an Armenian American.

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 01:04 AM
I'll admit, my dad as more West Asian is an inference from GEDmatch phasing. I haven't had him tested. What's the degree of reliability on this? His mother looked Greek too. (I'm not saying this is suggestive of any recent connection).



And yeah, not surprised. Aunt Voula makes more sense as Armenian than as Greek.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 01:06 AM
I'll admit, my dad as more West Asian is an inference from GEDmatch phasing. I haven't had him tested. What's the degree of reliability on this? His mother looked Greek too. (I'm not saying this is suggestive of any recent connection).



And yeah, not surprised. Aunt Voula makes more sense as Armenian than as Greek.

I'd be curious if you could send a photo. Usually I associate Greeks more with square heads, flat back of head, and blunt features, while I associate Ashkenazim and Sicilians with sharp "hooked" features and large oval shaped eyes, and a slightly upturned mouth ("Semitic" smile). I want to see if my image of your father in my head is right.

Andrea Martin (Aunt Voula) actually resembles my paternal aunt, who is Sicilian. I could believe her as SOME type of Greek, but she stands out.

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 01:10 AM
Me:

North_Atlantic 17.48
Baltic 4.73
West_Med 18.91
West_Asian 13.79
East_Med 33.01
Red_Sea 7.12
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.20
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.39
Oceanian 0.36
Northeast_African 2.02
Sub-Saharan -

Mother:

North_Atlantic 17.02
Baltic 8.08
West_Med 19.82
West_Asian 7.85
East_Med 37.44
Red_Sea 6.24
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.40
Siberian 0.44
Amerindian 0.13
Oceanian 0.19
Northeast_African 1.38
Sub-Saharan -

Father (phased—take w/grain of salt):

North_Atlantic 17.61
Baltic 4.07
West_Med 15.50
West_Asian 16.06
East_Med 27.87
Red_Sea 7.34
South_Asian -
East_Asian 2.81
Siberian 0.28
Amerindian 2.51
Oceanian 0.88
Northeast_African 5.08
Sub-Saharan -

Other calculators reflect this bent, relative to my mother.

Power77
08-17-2017, 01:15 AM
Erin Heatherton.


18194

She doesn't look Jewish at all:rofl:! Are you sure she's fully Ashkenazi:confused:?

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 01:24 AM
Me:

North_Atlantic 17.48
Baltic 4.73
West_Med 18.91
West_Asian 13.79
East_Med 33.01
Red_Sea 7.12
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.20
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.39
Oceanian 0.36
Northeast_African 2.02
Sub-Saharan -

Mother:

North_Atlantic 17.02
Baltic 8.08
West_Med 19.82
West_Asian 7.85
East_Med 37.44
Red_Sea 6.24
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.40
Siberian 0.44
Amerindian 0.13
Oceanian 0.19
Northeast_African 1.38
Sub-Saharan -

Father (phased—take w/grain of salt):

North_Atlantic 17.61
Baltic 4.07
West_Med 15.50
West_Asian 16.06
East_Med 27.87
Red_Sea 7.34
South_Asian -
East_Asian 2.81
Siberian 0.28
Amerindian 2.51
Oceanian 0.88
Northeast_African 5.08
Sub-Saharan -

Other calculators reflect this bent, relative to my mother.


Your mother does have more East Med (and more Levant shift) though.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 01:30 AM
Exactly there is many examples on both sides, there's a reason why in so many mob movies that have Italian actors playing Jewish mobsters and Jewish actors playing Italian mobsters, its not only mob movies but its a good example :laugh: Greeks too are in this mix, just look at the cast of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

The vast majority of both are found in the urban US, especially NYC, but with rather limited intermarriage as far as I understand it. They do not identify with each other. The movies are the movies, right here in this thread too, with people wishing a awful lot just to oppose the "Nordics!" (vomit), many of whom are also desperate and irritating. In fact most modern "Italian-Jewish" contact comes through... a certain individual or two. You all should know whom.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 01:32 AM
The vast majority of both are found in the urban US, especially NYC, but with rather limited intermarriage as far as I understand it. They do not identify with each other. The movies are the movies, right here in this thread too, with people wishing a awful lot just to oppose the "Nordics!" (vomit), many of whom are also desperate and irritating. In fact most modern "Italian-Jewish" contact comes through... a certain individual or two. You all should know whom.

Actually, there are a lot of people who are half Italian, half Jewish. They even are jokingly called "pizza bagels" :lol: ;)

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 01:33 AM
Actually, there are a lot of people who are half Italian, half Jewish. They even are jokingly called "pizza bagels" :lol: ;)

But far more Italian-Gaelic or Italian-German, and the Jews are now mixed with a number of other groups too, including some Irish.

Tz85
08-17-2017, 01:35 AM
But far more Italian-Gaelic or Italian-German.

Your kidding right? Italians are more east med, Levant shifted then they are Germanic.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 01:36 AM
I mean the marriage and mixture ratios over here.

Tz85
08-17-2017, 01:37 AM
Actually, there are a lot of people who are half Italian, half Jewish. They even are jokingly called "pizza bagels" :lol: ;)

Pizza bagel term actually came from Jews and Italians in NY, and it has to do with the food, pizzabagel.

But I'm sure their are some Italian Jews in NY who go by that term.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 01:48 AM
There seems to be a little Jewish-Danish thing too what with Scarlett and Bohr.

Tz85
08-17-2017, 01:49 AM
There seems to be a little Jewish-Danish thing too what with Scarlett and Bohr.

Doubtful. I guess according to you, everyone is Jewish.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 01:52 AM
But far more Italian-Gaelic or Italian-German, and the Jews are now mixed with a number of other groups too, including some Irish.

Italian-Irish is common because of religion, but Italian-German not so much: the Protestant and Catholic divide is strong.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 01:57 AM
I doubt De Niro and Christie's Scottish or Italian parents cared much, and I also happen to have a Scottish-German-Italian second cousin.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 02:00 AM
I doubt De Niro and Christie's Scottish or Italian parents cared much, and I also happen to have a Scottish-German-Italian second cousin.

Ok? Your family is not representative of everyone's.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 02:05 AM
Italian-Jewish is probably most usual in or near the old core enclaves in certain cities, where the residents are less likely to marry directly out into the traditional white mainstream (not calling Jews or Italians non-white here, just speaking in context), whereas further from those neighborhoods one would think the desire would be to not be seen as even further ethnic, thus marrying out to "real white" would be more common.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 02:20 AM
btw, Finnish is only white in Russia, maybe Sweden on occasion. The Finns are the blondest people in the world.

fished
08-17-2017, 02:25 AM
18194

She doesn't look Jewish at all:rofl:! Are you sure she's fully Ashkenazi:confused:?

Heh, well at least on paper all her ancestors are Jewish, anyway. :noidea: To me she bears a tiny bit of resemblance to a young Peggy Lipton (who definitely is fully Ashkenazi based on her daughter's DNA test):

18196

I think Lipton is/was definitely more beautiful though. :P

As long as we're commenting on Italian/Jewish lookalikes, oftentimes I'll see a person, either in real life or on TV, and immediately think "Well, they're either Jewish or Italian." A really strong NYC accent helps, too. Fabiano Caruana and Diane Savino are some good examples of Italian(-American)s who have that look, at least to me (not to mention many of my own relatives).

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 02:27 AM
As long as we're commenting on Italian/Jewish lookalikes, oftentimes I'll see a person, either in real life or on TV, and immediately think "Well, they're either Jewish or Italian." A really strong NYC accent helps, too. Fabiano Caruana and Diane Savino are some good examples of Italian(-American)s who have that look, at least to me (not to mention many of my own relatives).

It is because both groups are a mixture of Italic, Greek, and Near Eastern essentially. For what it is worth, I experience the same... sometimes I can guess it correctly but usually I can simply narrow it down to the two.

Savino and Caruana are both Sicilian surnames.

Targum
08-17-2017, 02:31 AM
It is because both groups are a mixture of Italic, Greek, and Near Eastern essentially. For what it is worth, I experience the same... sometimes I can guess it correctly but usually I can simply narrow it down to the two.

Savino and Caruana are both Sicilian surnames.

Interestingly Qarawani (Karavani) is a reasonably common YJ surname in Israel and among U.S Yemenite Jews.

fished
08-17-2017, 02:35 AM
That's interesting considering Agamemnon's papa looks pretty... Mediterranean, shall I say. He'd never pass as a Northern European in my opinion, neither would Aga's gramps or great-gramps, the latter kinda looks like Saddam, in fact. :lol: I've seen various Ashkenazi Jews who also look, well, pretty "Mediterranean". I just always assume the ones who look really North-Euro are recently admixed (i.e. 1/4 or more some sort of non-South European) and I'm often not wrong but there are interesting cases like what you and Amorite have outlined, I suppose. I mean, there's a reason a Sikeliot sometimes used to point out phenotypic similarities between Western Jews (Ashkenazim included) and Sicilians; the similar genotype does sometimes result in a similar phenotype but there are several exceptions due to what I assume would be selection. I.e. Copts and certain Arabians aren't so different in terms of their basal structure yet they look pretty easily discernible from a phenotypic point-of-view (at least to me) due to obviously different genetic histories that got them the way they are now.

Eh, but phenotypic stuff is generally pointless to discuss, in my humble opinion, when it's not in the form of a serious craniofacial study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1325007/) or an actual study on pigmentation (http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912) or what have you. It all just turns into a lot of inevitable subjectivity. Notice how much of what I've said is rather anecdotal, for example.

LOL! I'm not saying all Ashkenazim look Northern European by any stretch of the imagination. Just that they're more diverse than many give them credit for. There's just as many who look like Sacha Baron Cohen, Jenny Slate, Nev Schulman, or Jeremy Stoppelman on the other side of the spectrum.

But frankly, I cannot agree with you that all or most light Ashkenazim have some recent non-Ashkenazi ancestry. I know this because I share with plenty of people who are 97 - 100% Ashkenazi on 23andme who I would consider to be "light".

Power77
08-17-2017, 02:45 AM
There's just as many who look like Sacha Baron Cohen, Jenny Slate, Nev Schulman, or Jeremy Stoppelman.

I'd say that full-blooded Ashkenazim who look like Sacha Baron Cohen are more common than full-blooded Ashkenazim who look like Peggy Lipton:biggrin1:.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 02:59 AM
I am only going to post this once because this forum is not about taxonomy, but here is a club in Palermo, Sicily. A lot of them to me have the same phenotypes as Ashkenazim, both on the European side and more Levantine.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PINKCODEPALERMO/photos/?ref=page_internal

Kaldo
08-17-2017, 05:17 AM
Do Ancient Greeks really plot with Ashkenazi Jews on a PCA?

Generalissimo
08-17-2017, 06:18 AM
Do Ancient Greeks really plot with Ashkenazi Jews on a PCA?

Not really, but for now most are close to European and Moroccan Jews.

Kaldo
08-17-2017, 06:24 AM
Moroccan Jews? Do they have European blood?

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 10:00 AM
Your mother does have more East Med (and more Levant shift) though.

Should I trust the phased results?

Tomenable
08-17-2017, 10:33 AM
Italian-Irish is common because of religion, but Italian-German not so much: the Protestant and Catholic divide is strong.

There are a lot of Catholic Germans and Austrians though.

South and West Germans are mostly Catholic, and these areas have always been more densely populated than Protestant North and East Germany.

kingjohn
08-17-2017, 10:35 AM
to understand the european admixture of Jews
we need to look at the closest genetic picture of what the ancient Israelite
were now vadim posted the euro-genes k36 results of the ancient Canaanite ba- sidon
i will marker the european elements that he lack that are present in western Jews

K36 ba sidon

Amerindian 0
Arabian 19.51
Armenian 7.12
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 0
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 0.02
East_Central_Asian 0.46
East_Central_Euro 0
East_Med 21.74
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 0.02
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 9.73
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 29.96
North_African 1.2
North_Atlantic 0
North_Caucasian 1.18
North_Sea 0
Northeast_African 1.7
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 1.8
West_Med 5.54

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 11:42 AM
Moroccan Jews? Do they have European blood?

Yes. The Moroccan Jewish samples definitely have plenty. Haven't seen any Moroccan Jewish kits on GEDmatch; I assume there's a good bit of variation. The Moroccan phenotypic range overlaps with both Ashkenazim and Near Eastern Mizrahim. (Same story for Syrian Jews.)

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 11:45 AM
Interestingly Qarawani (Karavani) is a reasonably common YJ surname in Israel and among U.S Yemenite Jews.

Caruana was a surname given in Sicily to people who traced to Kairouan in Tunisia.

kingjohn
08-17-2017, 02:03 PM
Moroccan Jews? Do they have European blood?

i would say the got southern european genes
i am not sure it is a full morrocan jewish maybe it is a full algerian jewish judging by his name
mainly iberian that the anceint cannanite lacked :

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 2.71
Armenian 3.85
Basque 1.45
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 2.02
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 22.18
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian 11.85
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 17.31
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 15.05
North_African 6.75
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 4.58
North_Sea -
Northeast_African 2.80
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian 0.37
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.69
West_Med 5.32

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 03:29 PM
Do Ancient Greeks really plot with Ashkenazi Jews on a PCA?

Yes but the breakdown of their components is very different. They only plot together by coincidence. Mycenaeans didn't have much of an affinity to Levantines.

Principe
08-17-2017, 04:03 PM
I am only going to post this once because this forum is not about taxonomy, but here is a club in Palermo, Sicily. A lot of them to me have the same phenotypes as Ashkenazim, both on the European side and more Levantine.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PINKCODEPALERMO/photos/?ref=page_internal

I would say this is very accurate, its nice to see that a good portion of these people have the same darker skin tone as me and you even see the light Sicilians too, its a good representation.

Tz85
08-17-2017, 05:22 PM
i would say the got southern european genes
i am not sure it is a full morrocan jewish maybe it is a full algerian jewish judging by his name
mainly iberian that the anceint cannanite lacked :

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 2.71
Armenian 3.85
Basque 1.45
Central_African -
Central_Euro -
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 2.02
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 22.18
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian 11.85
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 17.31
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 15.05
North_African 6.75
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 4.58
North_Sea -
Northeast_African 2.80
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian 0.37
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.69
West_Med 5.32

Look at the amount of Italian these Canaanite samples have.

As far as physical features, their are members of my own family (Abruzzo, Calabrese side), who could easily pass for Levantine, Anatolian Jewish.

wandering_amorite
08-17-2017, 05:39 PM
Look at the amount of Italian these Canaanite samples have.

As far as physical features, their are members of my own family (Abruzzo, Calabrese side), who could easily pass for Levantine, Anatolian Jewish.

This is a Moroccan Jew. Canaanite sample has about half that ^

kingjohn
08-17-2017, 06:23 PM
the cananite sample carry 9.50% italian in eurogenes k36
you quated the full algerian / morroocan jewish sample
and indid he score 17% italian high number indid .
i marked only the components that were not present in the cannaite sample as oposed to the mororocan jew { those are iberian, basque}
as example of european components in eurogenes k36 that sefhardic jews aquaired in the {diaspora iberia 400ad -1492 ad } 1000 years not surprising .....
i didn't marked the italian component since it was present in ancient levant cannaite sample ....

Dewsloth
08-17-2017, 06:37 PM
to understand the european admixture of Jews
we need to look at the closest genetic picture of what the ancient Israelite
were now vadim posted the euro-genes k36 results of the ancient Canaanite ba- sidon
i will marker the european elements that he lack that are present in western Jews

K36 ba sidon

Amerindian 0
Arabian 19.51
Armenian 7.12
Basque 0
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 0
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 0.02
East_Central_Asian 0.46
East_Central_Euro 0
East_Med 21.74
Eastern_Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 0.02
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 9.73
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 29.96
North_African 1.2
North_Atlantic 0
North_Caucasian 1.18
North_Sea 0
Northeast_African 1.7
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 1.8
West_Med 5.54

For comparison, Mom (19th Century Christian Lebanese + Armenian):

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 9.86
Armenian 9.04
Basque 0.73
Central_African -
Central_Euro 0.47
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan -
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 31.51
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian -
French -
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 7.31
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 22.50
North_African 1.52
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 9.49
North_Sea -
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.78
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 2.98
West_Med 3.80

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 10:35 PM
I would say this is very accurate, its nice to see that a good portion of these people have the same darker skin tone as me and you even see the light Sicilians too, its a good representation.

I am unsure how they look compared to average Ashkenazim, but I can say they (the Sicilians) look considerably more Levantine than do most Greeks.

Nibelung
08-17-2017, 10:51 PM
Principe may have less exposure to Jewish people than we do here in Maryland (2nd highest US concentration) and NYC (1st). I've known, met, encountered or seen more Jewish people than I can count. My mother became the first New Yorker in our family because of a Jewish boyfriend in college, and many other friends. My pediatricians many thousands of years ago were Jewish too, and I even went to a synagogue for summer school/camp once.

Our now senior Senator from Maryland, Ben Cardin, is Baltimore Jewish.

Principe
08-17-2017, 11:19 PM
I am unsure how they look compared to average Ashkenazim, but I can say they (the Sicilians) look considerably more Levantine than do most Greeks.

Yes a whole your definately right.

Principe
08-17-2017, 11:28 PM
[QUOTE=Nibelung;275938]Principe may have less exposure to Jewish people than we do here in Maryland (2nd highest US concentration) and NYC (1st). I've known, met, encountered or seen more Jewish people than I can count. My mother became the first New Yorker in our family because of a Jewish boyfriend in college, and many other friends. My pediatricians many thousands of years ago were Jewish too, and I even went to a synagogue for summer school/camp once.

Well maybe, but where I live there is a sizable Jewish community, Montreal has the second largest Jewish community in Canada and the second largest Moroccan Jewish community in North America, we have family friends that are Jewish that I knew basically my whole, I have Jewish friends as well, several co workers too, my boss is Jewish.

Sikeliot
08-17-2017, 11:53 PM
Yes a whole your definately right.

I would say this applies most to Palermo, Agrigento, Caltanissetta, Messina. I think southeastern Sicily and in Enna they do look more like Greeks and less of the Jewish/Levantine looks than what we are used to (they also are more robust with blocky features) but in the line of my family from Carini in the northwest, they do look like Ashkenazim, both light and dark.

stealth
08-19-2017, 12:58 AM
Look at the amount of Italian these Canaanite samples have.

As far as physical features, their are members of my own family (Abruzzo, Calabrese side), who could easily pass for Levantine, Anatolian Jewish.

Could it be possible Italians cluster with Ashkenazi and Lebanese cluster with Canaanites?

Sikeliot
08-19-2017, 11:42 AM
Could it be possible Italians cluster with Ashkenazi and Lebanese cluster with Canaanites?

This is exactly the way it is. The reason for it being that (southern) Italians and Ashkenazim have a similar ratio and type of south-central/southeast European and Near Eastern DNA. The Canaanite might be a good proxy for the Near Eastern side of both, and it is clear the Near Eastern input in southern Italy is more of a Levantine type rather than from the Caucasus.

stealth
08-19-2017, 11:53 PM
This is exactly the way it is. The reason for it being that (southern) Italians and Ashkenazim have a similar ratio and type of south-central/southeast European and Near Eastern DNA. The Canaanite might be a good proxy for the Near Eastern side of both, and it is clear the Near Eastern input in southern Italy is more of a Levantine type rather than from the Caucasus.

Interesting, on most charts I noticed that Sephardic Jews are clustering with Levantine/Maghreb populations with Ashkenazi clustering among Northern and Central Italians and Caucasus groups.This makes sense given their history.

Generalissimo
08-20-2017, 12:20 AM
Interesting, on most charts I noticed that Sephardic Jews are clustering with Levantine/Maghreb populations with Ashkenazi clustering among Northern and Central Italians and Caucasus groups.This makes sense given their history.

Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews always cluster together, unless their samples include admixed individuals.

On any decent plots, Sephardic Jews never cluster with Maghreb populations and Ashkenazis never cluster with North/Central Italians or Caucasians.

stealth
08-20-2017, 04:21 AM
I am not talking about plots, rather on oracles

Sikeliot
08-20-2017, 02:57 PM
Ashkenazim do have some ancestry from northern/central Italy but their overall PCA plot position is near southern Italians, not northerners. Sephardim are marginally more Levantine than Ashkenazim but the difference is not large.

Tz85
08-20-2017, 07:37 PM
Ashkenazi are descent of Romanite Jews, Italkim, and other Southern European groups. This is why Ashkenazi cluster close to Southern Italians, and obviously Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews share DNA.

Taurus
08-20-2017, 10:32 PM
Italian-Irish is common because of religion, but Italian-German not so much: the Protestant and Catholic divide is strong.

Germans are also Catholic. Italian-German is common in south Brazil. But there Italians are mostly Northern Italians and to some extent Central Italians, but almost never Southern Italians (Southern Italians are more concentrated in São Paulo).

According to the 2011 German Census, Christianity is the largest religion in Germany, claiming 66.8% of the total population.[215] Relative to the whole population, 31.7% declared themselves as Protestants, including members of the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) (30.8%) and the free churches (German: Evangelische Freikirchen) (0.9%), and 31.2% declared themselves as Roman Catholics.

vettor
08-20-2017, 11:34 PM
Germans are also Catholic. Italian-German is common in south Brazil. But there Italians are mostly Northern Italians and to some extent Central Italians, but almost never Southern Italians (Southern Italians are more concentrated in São Paulo).

According to the 2011 German Census, Christianity is the largest religion in Germany, claiming 66.8% of the total population.[215] Relative to the whole population, 31.7% declared themselves as Protestants, including members of the Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) (30.8%) and the free churches (German: Evangelische Freikirchen) (0.9%), and 31.2% declared themselves as Roman Catholics.

The main reason they are mostly north Italians is because when the 12 million lombards veneti and friuli went from being austrian to Italian , the Italian government could not manage. Then the pellagra plague happened in these regions. Year 1878

Moderator
08-21-2017, 04:04 AM
WARNING! Thread is being closed, and is under review until further notice. All members are reminded to stay on topic, and avoid personal attacks.