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View Full Version : U106 > S263 > S499 > L48 > Z9 > Z30 > Z349 > Z2 > Z7 > S5945 > S3595



jamesdowallen
06-28-2017, 11:03 PM
My FtDna result of apparently places me in the YFull subclade (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5945/)

A0 > A1 > A1b > BT > CT > CF > F > GHIJK > HIJK >
IJK > K > K2 > K2b > P > R > R-Y482 > R1 > R1b >
L278 > L754 > L389 > P297 > M269 > L23 > L51 > L151 >

U106 > S263 > S499 > L48 > Z9 > Z30 > Z349 > Z2 > Z7 > S5945 > S3595 [mrca = 700 BC]

I see very little about these subclades and get almost no Google hits. Who are these people; what are their
surnames (one is Allen) and what was their geographic trajectory? YFull shows several data hits, some in Sweden,
or England, etc. (My own ancestor was in Scotland 1600 AD.)

I will appreciate any help Anthrogenicans can offer.


(The FtDna positive was R-FGC7559; this seems to correlate with YFull's S3595.)

Wing Genealogist
06-29-2017, 12:12 AM
Have you joined the R-U106 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA https://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106? If you have not done so, I would strongly encourage you to join.

In addition, the U106 Project has a Yahoogroup, which you can join by sending an email to:
[email protected]

Almost all communication regarding U106 goes through this Yahoogroup, although we recognize quite a few folks really do not like to use Yahoogroups.

Another valuable resource, especially regarding Big Y results is a series of links which can be found online at: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html and speaking about this analysis work, I hope you would share your VCF/ZIP file of your Big Y results with the U106 group (if you have not already done so), so we could include your results in this analysis

The U106 Project uses CTS10893 instead of S3595. Most companies (such as FTDNA, YSEQ and Full Genomes) uses the CTS10893 name for the clade, while YFull alone uses S3595. In addition, While YFull may lump FGC7559 and CTS10893(S3595) together, they are actually separate clades, with FGC7559 being a (grand)parent clade of CTS10893.

jamesdowallen
06-29-2017, 09:08 AM
Have you joined the R-U106 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA ...
In addition, the U106 Project has a Yahoogroup, ...
... would share your VCF/ZIP file of your Big Y results with the U106 group (if you have not already done so), so we could include your results in this analysis

Thank you. Just now, I joined the U106 project and sent the Yahoo email.

BTW, I have very few test results. I started with 12 STR markers. I noticed that someone with same 12 markers, also an Allen with ancestor in Scotland, had tested positive for R-FGC7559. I sprung for $39 and confirmed that I am R-FGC7559 also. (Strangely, the older R-FGC7559 result had disappeared from the Allen project, and now there's an Allen hit sibling(? - according to YFull) to FGC7559. By leap-frogging directly to FGC7559 instead of a YSTR or SNP package I saved some money.

Looking at the U106 tree at your project, I see there are lots of us FGC7559 ! I want to study the data and guess what my best gamble is on my next $39 test!

The Y-DNA Classic Chart pages load slowly, and I prefer simple text tables anyway. (Is there a better way to access this data?) I am generating a simple text table from the Classic Chart pages (though iframes etc. makes this difficult). Would there be any interest in my sharing the output?

Wing Genealogist
06-29-2017, 11:29 AM
There are still a LOT of subclades below your FGC7559 result. If you want to save money in the long run, you probably would be better off to purchase a SNP Pack/SNP Panel test, rather than individually order SNPs.

FTDNA's appropriate SNP Pack test would be the R1b - L48 (xL47 xZ326 xZ8) SNP Pack. I believe this SNP pack is US$119 (which is roughly the cost of 3 individual SNPs, but tests for roughly 150 SNPs). YSEQ offers a SNP Panel test for all of L48 for US$88 (plus some additional small fees for the swab & postage). The two companies use different testing methods but typically arrive at similar results.

If you do decide to individually order SNPs, your DYS393=14 result indicates you may belong to the smaller branch of FGC7559 (FGC17354) rather than the larger branch (CTS10893). However, we do have a couple of CTS10893+ results who have DYS393=14, so it is somewhat of a gamble.

From your above posts, I take it that Next Generation Sequence/Whole Genome Sequence (NGS/WGS) testing (such as the Big Y) is simply too expensive for you (which I can well understand). As a co-administer for a Haplogroup Project (R-U106) I do request that folks at least consider taking the plunge and ordering a NGS/WGS test. They are the only Y-DNA tests on the market today which have the ability to look for novel mutations in your DNA. All other Y-DNA tests simply look for a pre-determined number of previously discovered mutations (and many of these mutations have been discovered by NGS/WGS testing).

jamesdowallen
06-29-2017, 12:30 PM
There are still a LOT of subclades below your FGC7559 result. If you want to save money in the long run, you probably would be better off to purchase a SNP Pack/SNP Panel test, rather than individually order SNPs.

FTDNA's appropriate SNP Pack test would be the R1b - L48 (xL47 xZ326 xZ8) SNP Pack.

And how many SNP's in that pack are down-stream of FGC7559 ?


If you do decide to individually order SNPs, your DYS393=14 result indicates you may belong to the smaller branch of FGC7559 (FGC17354) rather than the larger branch (CTS10893). However, we do have a couple of CTS10893+ results who have DYS393=14, so it is somewhat of a gamble.

I reached a similar conclusion studying the difference between the YSTR's of my close Allen matches with your U106 data. The closest matches (other than the Allen matches) appear to be two Gilberts: Kit 244799 and Kit H1048 (FGC7559 > FGC17354>Y28576>A14360).

FGC17354 appears to correlate with YFull's R-FGC17344 which is almost a leaf-node in their tree. What good will it do me to learn I am FGC17344, or in one of its subclades? It would be fun to learn, for example, that this was a Germanic Iron-Age warrior who crossed the North Sea approx such-and-such century, but as of now I think little knowledge that would be added by finding my subclade within FGC7559. If there were a lot of predictive data -- several family records, ancient skeletons, active discussions about sub-subclades -- it might be informative. Otherwise, I'm happy to wait until I see discussions pointing me to such value.

Wing Genealogist
06-29-2017, 04:01 PM
One of the reasons why we are encouraging folks to consider NGS/WGS testing is that we have started estimating the ages of the various clades from Big Y results (and we eventually do want to include other NGS/WGS tests results as well in the future). We are using a formula similar to the one used by YFull, but primarily due to the fact we have a whole lot more Big Y U106+ individuals than YFull, our estimates are much more accurate.

You can find links to this analytical work at: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html. For example, the List of ages report http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/table.html has the following estimate (and 95% CI) for the ages of Y28756 & A14360

Y28576 230 AD (393 BC — 745 AD)
A14360 524 AD (62 BC — 1034 AD)

We do hope to also include a geographicl report of where the various clades possibly came from, but this sort of detail is still a ways off.

jamesdowallen
06-29-2017, 08:32 PM
... I noticed that someone with same 12 markers, also an Allen with ancestor in Scotland, had tested positive for R-FGC7559. I sprung for $39 and confirmed that I am R-FGC7559 also.


And how many SNP's in that pack are down-stream of FGC7559 ?

It occurs to me that the other Allen with R-FGC7559 probably got that hit as part of a SNP-package, and therefore tested negative for any downstream SNPs (otherwise, the downstream SNP would appear on his project line). It is unlikely but possible that, despite the genetic closeness, we belong to two separate initial instantiations of 'Allen', but the odds favor, I think, shared surname instance.

Is it possible to see the negative SNP results for project members?

Wing Genealogist
06-30-2017, 01:20 AM
I apologize for not answering some of your earlier questions. I have been VERY busy today.

The U106 Project maintains its own tree at: https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o Please ignore the numbers in column A of the first sheet, as they still need a lot of work.

I have noted where there are a couple of folks with the Allen surname who have very similar STR markers to you. I do believe the three of you would all fall into the same clade, but haven't had the time needed to take an in-depth look.

I don't see where any Allens who are FGC7559 have had an analysis completed by YFull. Can you give me the YFull ID number you are referring to? The other Allen's have not tested as far down as FGC7559, so they have no negative SNP results to report.

jamesdowallen
06-30-2017, 02:35 PM
I don't see where any Allens who are FGC7559 have had an analysis completed by YFull. Can you give me the YFull ID number you are referring to? The other Allen's have not tested as far down as FGC7559, so they have no negative SNP results to report.

Did I miswrite? I saw the kit at FTDna, not at YFull.

As I said in OP, it's not showing now, but I thought [/U] I'd seen it earlier. Does FTDna have some archive? Or could the guy have dropped out of the Allen project so his results no longer appear?

There is a guy in the same STR cluster with
66256 John Allan,b 1658, Roxburghshire, Scotland Scotland R-FGC17354 14 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 30
Is it possible that This was the guy I remembered but somehow I flipped SNP's??
Anyway, I see now (I'd misremmbered) that the one clade is just a subclade of the other.

As Roseanne Rosannadanna said: "Nevermind."

Wing Genealogist
06-30-2017, 02:48 PM
I believe I know what has happened.

It appears kit #66256 took the Big Y test. When he was initially tested, he simply came back as FGC7559. Sometime later, another person took the Big Y test and this second result showed where he shared FGC17354 in common with the previous Big Y test of #62256. Due to this, FTDNA automatically changed kit #66256 haplogroup to FGC17354.

Under this scenario, and given the fact you are a close STR marker match to #66256, you (and the other two Allens within the U106 Project) would be FGC17354+ as well.


EDIT: Would you be willing to contact the Allen surname Project admin and ask him/her to contact #66256 and request he join the U106 Project? That would be a big help to me.

jamesdowallen
06-30-2017, 05:40 PM
... Would you be willing to contact the Allen surname Project admin and ask him/her to contact #66256 and request he join the U106 Project? That would be a big help to me.

Done. (I count eight with FGC17354+ already in R-U106 project.)

jamesdowallen
07-03-2017, 12:22 PM
Studying the STR's at FtDNA, I think there's a fair chance I'm in subclade A14360. I'd happily pay $39 to check this, but although FtDNA displays A14360 at https://www.familytreedna.com/my/y-dna-haplotree it is colored Blue instead of Purple and has no "Add" button.

Am I correct to surmise that this test is only available as part of a BigY package and cannot be ordered individually? (And am I the only one who finds FtDNA website difficult to use? Navigation is clumsy; pages load very slowly, or generate errors. After several clicks, I can't find BigY to order -- I know it's part of FtDNA only because of Google Search!)

Wing Genealogist
07-03-2017, 01:21 PM
FTDNA has stated they will make individual SNPs (such as A14360) available for testing when and if they get added to a SNP Pack test. The U106 Project is working with FTDNA on coming up with new versions of the various SNP Packs, to add in discoveries. A14360 should be added to the L48 (xL47 x326 xZ8) SNP pack for the next version. I don't know the timeframe, but the sooner the better.

The FTDNA website does take some getting used to. The site went up more than a decade ago, and there is an inherent conflict between long-time customers (who basically don't like to see ANY changes) and new customers (who are used to a radically different type of website interaction than existed a decade ago). FTDNA has recently made some changes to the website, and are probably getting complaints from both long-time customers as well as new customers.

Wheal
07-14-2017, 06:35 PM
My dad matches you down to the Z2... and yes, I do have the Allen name in his GED. Beyond Allen, we also have Scottish.

kikkk
04-08-2018, 07:12 AM
Hi! I am a newbie, I would like to ask:
What is the U106 sub-clade FGC17344 fall under and what is the most probably geographical origin of it?