PDA

View Full Version : What will Breton ancestry show up as in a DNA test?



CuriousAboutStuff
06-30-2017, 11:09 PM
If someone of fully Breton descent were to take a DNA test, would they fall under the French or British category?

Curious as I'm aware of the linguistic and cultural relationship Brittany has to the British Isles, but I was wondering if there was a genetic relationship too, one maybe distinct from the rest of France?

Titane
07-01-2017, 03:20 AM
If someone of fully Breton descent were to take a DNA test, would they fall under the French or British category?

Curious as I'm aware of the linguistic and cultural relationship Brittany has to the British Isles, but I was wondering if there was a genetic relationship too, one maybe distinct from the rest of France?

Look at the French thread! Most people from the North of France, and that would include Brittany, show up half and half. I am French Canadian - 99% French on paper but from 15 to 55% British and Irish genetically depending on the testing company. But looking at the fine print, you see that AncestryDNA lumped Britain, Belgium and the whole North-West of France under "British". Bottom line - too mixed - can't tell.

Tolan
07-01-2017, 05:11 AM
Yes, there is clearly a correlation between the Breton language, spoken only in the west of Brittany) and genetic.
And the difference is seen even in Brittany, between the Breton zone (West of the peninsula) and the non-breton zone (East of the peninsula)

The Western Bretons are quite close to the British Isles, whereas the Eastern Bretons are quite close to the Northern-French.

rms2
07-02-2017, 08:35 PM
My seventh great grandfather Paul Micou was born in Nantes. He is buried in Essex County, Virginia, not far from where I currently live.

17347 17348

moesan
07-07-2017, 11:10 PM
Yes, there is clearly a correlation between the Breton language, spoken only in the west of Brittany) and genetic.
And the difference is seen even in Brittany, between the Breton zone (West of the peninsula) and the non-breton zone (East of the peninsula)

The Western Bretons are quite close to the British Isles, whereas the Eastern Bretons are quite close to the Northern-French.

I think "true" Bretons are/were in a between position between Irish and Welsh pops (not exactly the same ones) and the N-W pop of France; a difference existed between Western and Eastern Bretons as you say, but not as marked :Eastern Bretons are surely not so close to Northern France (of old times) - A study has been made -
You can try - the interesting part is the distances with other French close regions and others countries of Europe: a beginning of answer... let's notice that at fine sacle concerning Y haplo's the Vikings influenced region of Cotentin shows also some differences with the more continental parts of Normandy even if not too striking (surely same case with Bessin and Pays de Caux) -

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n6/full/ejhg2014175a.html

moesan
07-07-2017, 11:15 PM
I add tha breton languages has been spoken until the end of the XIX°Cy in NW Loire-Atlantique, and until end of XIII°/beginning of XIX° Cy in some parts of Morbihan, todate labelled "gallo" (Brittany roman dialect speaking) - until XIV°/XV° Cy the linguistic frontier was very far more towards East in Brittany, but marking rather a bilingual zone -

avalon
07-08-2017, 07:27 PM
I think "true" Bretons are/were in a between position between Irish and Welsh pops (not exactly the same ones) and the N-W pop of France; a difference existed between Western and Eastern Bretons as you say, but not as marked :Eastern Bretons are surely not so close to Northern France (of old times) - A study has been made -
You can try - the interesting part is the distances with other French close regions and others countries of Europe: a beginning of answer... let's notice that at fine sacle concerning Y haplo's the Vikings influenced region of Cotentin shows also some differences with the more continental parts of Normandy even if not too striking (surely same case with Bessin and Pays de Caux) -

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n6/full/ejhg2014175a.html

Yes, you can see from the PCA in figure 2 that Bretons separate from the rest of the Western France sample along PC1. Although there is some overlap between Pays de la Loire and Brittany.

What would be really interesting to see would be the Breton samples from this study plotted against samples from the Irish DNA Atlas and the POBI samples.

Personally I think that the closest modern Isles based population to modern Bretons could well be POBI's North Pembrokeshire cluster, not least because it had the highest FRA14 component on the POBI analysis. (FRA14 component identified in a sample from Rennes Hospital).

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2014175f2.html#figure-title

moesan
07-12-2017, 06:50 PM
I add Pays-de-Loire is a artificial région, in the drawers since PETAIN, and which has amputed the ancient region (closer to the historical province of Brittany) of the Loire-Atlantique departement, added to other departememnts pkkced here and there from ancient Maine, Anjou and Western Poitou (Vendée) to become the too famous "Pays-de-Loire" with a stupid name as a gift and pharaonic costs to forge a false historical identity with the "public money" (Loire river goes from the Ardèche departement in North-Languedoc to the Atlantic Ocean! - but we have Hauts de France now for Nord-Picardie so...)
2 departements were only partially breton speaking in far past: Ille-et-Vilaine and Loire-Atlantic, breton was spoken all over Finistère, Côtes-du-Nord and Morbihan - it was sweaped out from I-et-V since the XIII° Cy (proxi only) but survived in Loire-Atlantique until the second part of the XX° Cy, in a reduced district it's true -
in East-Brittany the breton was the elites languages and the country people spoke either breton or roman or both for some time before roman gained completely -
genetically speaking, Loire-Atlantic is in a between situation and I think the "breton blood" would be stronger and North the Loire, and in some way, West the departement -

moesan
07-12-2017, 06:52 PM
at the beginning of the XX° CY, large parts of Morbihan and Côtes-du-Nord too was completely gained to french -

ffoucart
07-13-2017, 01:06 AM
(Loire river goes from the Ardèche departement in North-Languedoc to the Atlantic Ocean! - but we have Hauts de France now for Nord-Picardie so...)
2 departements were only partially breton speaking in far past: Ille-et-Vilaine and Loire-Atlantic, breton was spoken all over Finistère, Côtes-du-Nord and Morbihan - it was sweaped out from I-et-V since the XIII° Cy (proxi only) but survived in Loire-Atlantique until the second part of the XX° Cy, in a reduced district it's true -

Hauts de France (Top of France) is clearly an awful and stupid name.

Anyway, to my knowledge, Loire Atlantique has always been mostly French speaking. I am not saying that Nantes is not part of Bretagne, but Breton was not usually spoken there.

To give some insight comments: it is clear from records that French was commonly used in the Finistere since the XVIIth century (for administrative purposes, but not only), if not on a day to day basis. The use of "LE" in the names instead of "AR" or "AN" is common since 1650.

moesan
07-13-2017, 08:19 AM
Hauts de France (Top of France) is clearly an awful and stupid name.

Anyway, to my knowledge, Loire Atlantique has always been mostly French speaking. I am not saying that Nantes is not part of Bretagne, but Breton was not usually spoken there.

To give some insight comments: it is clear from records that French was commonly used in the Finistere since the XVIIth century (for administrative purposes, but not only), if not on a day to day basis. The use of "LE" in the names instead of "AR" or "AN" is common since 1650.

If you read what I wrote, I said the easternmost part of the Breton language territory was a "bilingual" zone - but it encompassed at first ore than a third of Loire-Atlantique and almost the half of Ille-et-Vilaine - I add a very little zone SOutnwest the river has been bilingual too at some remote time - but the breton languages lost ground faster in North than in South -
concerning "big" towns, some like Vannes (Gwened) has always had a roman speaking pop - the others of Lower-Brittany were bilingual (so knowing roman and then french) since a long enough time, for diverse reasons (trade but also the fact the breton gentry had adopted french since the XI° Cy, as they were fallen in the feudal system of intermarriages with foreign gentry - the existance of french speaking pops in towns of Lower Brittany (not to say all the people were french speaking) is even older in some places than the dates you give and is the principal explanation of the today french pronounciation of breton towns, and its heterogeneity linked to the dates of this french speakers first presence -

moesan
07-13-2017, 08:36 AM
effectively, Nantes town was close to the frontiers of ephemere breton language period in Loire-Atlantique (short lasting except Guerande region), but breton use never took force there, it was a "foreign" language as it could have been in Rouen or Le Havre, outside Brittany - at the XV (1499) Arnold Von Harff gathered some breton words and sentances in Nantes, but the dialectal form close to the Western Brière's dialect (southern vannetais in L-A) was the language of low classes workers freshly arrived in Nantes and not a language locally transmitted from generation to generation -

Tolan
07-13-2017, 12:38 PM
Maybe my message about the correlation between Breton language and genetics is a little too categorical.
Because there may be another explanation for this genetic difference.

The haplogroup R-L21 increases in the western direction of Brittany, and it would appear that the L21 rate in Western Brittany is higher than in Ireland or Wales: which means that it is not due to a migration from the Islands.
The distribution of L21 suggests that they were the first R1b to arrive in western Europe (Gaul, British Isles), and that other haplogroups arrived after, such as U152, perhaps with the Hallstatt culture.
But the culture of Hallstatt did not really reach the end of Brittany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

This difference may also be due to this period.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-13-2017, 07:50 PM
Maybe my message about the correlation between Breton language and genetics is a little too categorical.
Because there may be another explanation for this genetic difference.

The haplogroup R-L21 increases in the western direction of Brittany, and it would appear that the L21 rate in Western Brittany is higher than in Ireland or Wales: which means that it is not due to a migration from the Islands.
The distribution of L21 suggests that they were the first R1b to arrive in western Europe (Gaul, British Isles), and that other haplogroups arrived after, such as U152, perhaps with the Hallstatt culture.
But the culture of Hallstatt did not really reach the end of Brittany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

This difference may also be due to this period.

I don't think people would think that it is entirely due to migration from the British Isles, but assuming there was migration it may have been due to a long - standing association between these populations? John

moesan
07-13-2017, 08:58 PM
I think too that Bretons Y-R1b-L21 is for the most the basis of a lot of L21 in the Isles and not the contrary and was there long before the Brittonic "emigration", but that said the great differences for L21 between Bretons and very close pops like Normans or Angevins or Western Poitou (Vendée) people points at the same time towards a supplement came later from the Isles (kind of return) even if a part of the difference could be explained by kind of isolation from the more continental influences - the (ancient) excess of red hairs in Brittany compared to neighbours, even Normans, and the fact this "excedent" was stronger in West (breton speaking) than in East could partially confirm it - until 1950 physical antrhopology of Brittany was not so level, and subregional distinctions were seen even if light -
and the differences with more southern atlantic pops points also towards an Isles people input -
breton language survival is surely linked to survival of gaulish in remote parts of western Aremorica (conservation of great number of Gaulish personal names in Western Aremorica during first Gallo-Romans stages) : all these facts temper the Isles input for a part but confirm it for another part - neither black nor white -

Pascal C
09-27-2017, 05:55 AM
I remember reading the Romans noted very close connections between Brittany and western Britain before Magnus Maximus.

Arnaud Bzh
09-28-2017, 05:26 PM
I'm 100% breton and i'm have 75.8% British/Irish and 13.5% French/German. I'm very surprised by my results but i excepted to have 30-40% British/Irish ancestry.

moesan
09-29-2017, 09:02 AM
I'm 100% breton and i'm have 75.8% British/Irish and 13.5% French/German. I'm very surprised by my results but i excepted to have 30-40% British/Irish ancestry.

I'm pleased to have some Bretons analysis like this. It would be interesting to have others "100%" ones. I'm a Breton-Île-de-France alloy for the most, and in BritainDNA PCA I plot in pseudo "North" of France, not overlapping but very very close to the corner where meat British and German people (on the map) and surely Belgians if they had been tested. I'm sure that in the same BritainDNA thing 100% Bretons could overlap a bit with British, and not with Germans... what would confirm countryside Île-de-France (before 1930's and all France newcomers) had a bit of Franks heritage I guess.

timberwolf
10-01-2017, 06:17 AM
Delete

timberwolf
10-01-2017, 06:19 AM
I'm 100% breton and i'm have 75.8% British/Irish and 13.5% French/German. I'm very surprised by my results but i excepted to have 30-40% British/Irish ancestry.

I scored 75.2 British and Irish on 23andme, and I am mostly Cornish.

ffoucart
10-01-2017, 10:14 AM
I'm 100% breton and i'm have 75.8% British/Irish and 13.5% French/German. I'm very surprised by my results but i excepted to have 30-40% British/Irish ancestry.

I think this is partly due to the V5 chip used by 23andme nowadays. I've seen other people recently tested with also a very high % in a specific component.

We should be cautious about these kind of results before understanding why there is so much difference between V5 and previous chips.

ffoucart
10-01-2017, 10:21 AM
what would confirm countryside Île-de-France (before 1930's and all France newcomers) had a bit of Franks heritage I guess.

Dunno. But I doubt so. French usually don't have much Frank related ancestry. Southern of the river Somme, the presence of the Franks was very limited, with a negligible impact.

The big difference is more likely the limited impact of BBs in Central France (due to the SOM culture), and the heavy impact of Bretons migration in Armorique between the Vth and the VIIth centuries.

Camulogène Rix
10-01-2017, 10:52 AM
Dunno. But I doubt so. French usually don't have much Frank related ancestry. Southern of the river Somme, the presence of the Franks was very limited, with a negligible impact.

The big difference is more likely the limited impact of BBs in Central France (due to the SOM culture), and the heavy impact of Bretons migration in Armorique between the Vth and the VIIth centuries.

Could you develop a bit on 'SOM culture' and give us an useful link if possible?

ffoucart
10-02-2017, 12:40 AM
SOM (Seine Oise Marne) is still commonly used to describe Late Neolithic Cultures which existed in North Central France, until around 1800 BC. Since 2004, there is a clear tendance to split it into regional groups like Gord or Deûle-Escaut. It is unclear how the transition to BA intervened. It was proposed different possibilities either by influence of CW or of BBs. Anyway it was late, and specificities remained.
So, to be back to our subject: a large contribution of those Neolithic groups to modern French is likely. And it seems a specificity in comparison with the Isles.

links:
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00638321/document

Govan
10-02-2017, 12:58 AM
Not surprising , I mean the high British in a Breton. Britons who arrived in Armorica were clearly conquerers not mere refugees. They had tribal leaders and founded many villages re-naming regions with their once territory (Cornouailles { Cornwalls). Looking at yDNA charts of Somsert and Dorset , I1 and U106 had frequencies over 20% showing thus the noticeable feet of the Saxons and their kingdoms. I do think the formation of Sussex and Wessex pushed many Briton tribes who refused Saxon authority into Cornwalls but after sometime the small area for such large amount of people and the intense Saxon colonisation further east lead many tribes to cross overseas.

moesan
10-02-2017, 09:10 PM
Dunno. But I doubt so. French usually don't have much Frank related ancestry. Southern of the river Somme, the presence of the Franks was very limited, with a negligible impact.

The big difference is more likely the limited impact of BBs in Central France (due to the SOM culture), and the heavy impact of Bretons migration in Armorique between the Vth and the VIIth centuries.

I'm not sure but according to toponymy Franks had solid settlements also more in South (Oise and West Aisne, Meuse); BTW Somme departement people seem showing more Celtic pre-Germanic remnants physically than ancient Oise (before the heavy modern foreign immigration from far South); sure West Paris region received less Franks input what is not to say nothing. Franks as others radiated from their strongholds even if by doing so they lost weight.
all the way the differences are the result of cumulative lacks and overdosis of diverse components and your explanation could be true too. By instance the proximity to Germans in some parts can also be due to the kind of 'mediterranean' involved: the post-danubian LBK descendants can attract towards Germany when other southern components put closer to Basques and British?
ancient French from Île-de-France seemed a bit closer to Champenois and Picard concerning vowels even if it does not present the non-palatalaising or K and G, and more different to Western or Eastern Oïl dialects, if this could be of some pertinence here.

moesan
10-02-2017, 09:19 PM
SOM (Seine Oise Marne) is still commonly used to discribe Late Neolithic Cultures which existed in North Central France, until around 1800 BC. Since 2004, there is a clear tendance to split it into regional groups like Gord or Deûle-Escaut. It is unclear how the transition to BA intervened. It was proposed different possibilities either by influence of CW or of BBs. Anyway it was late, and specificities remained.
So, to be back to our subject: a large contribution of those Neolithic groups to modern French is likely. And it seems a specificity in comparison with the Isles.

links:
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00638321/document

I had not red this post of you (but you already evocated SOM). Always concerning mixtures and distances/proximity of pops, even SOM, as you say, could have played a role: Western Germans themselves (Eiffel/Franconia) had two of the three principal components (brutal Mesolithics close to Loschbour and "Rubanés" post LBK) of SOM as by hazard!
So inthese matters of distances, cumul of strong and weak components, added together, play a role. That said the typical SOM blend for France was rather centered around Marne/Ardennes/ than around Western Île-de-France.
But here I'm castrating lice I think.

ffoucart
10-03-2017, 05:36 AM
I'm not sure but according to toponymy Franks had solid settlements also more in South (Oise and West Aisne, Meuse); BTW Somme departement people seem showing more Celtic pre-Germanic remnants physically than ancient Oise (before the heavy modern foreign immigration from far South); sure West Paris region received less Franks input what is not to say nothing. Franks as others radiated from their strongholds even if by doing so they lost weight.


Franks were not numerous enough South of river Somme to have a real impact. For instance, toponymy doesn't show any purely Frankish name, all are made of a Frank personal name + roman component (like -court). Given that Gallo-romans adopted very early Frankish personal name, there is no direct correlation between personal name and ethnicity in the late Vth century.

Anglo-saxon and Frank settlements were heavy North and West of a line Montreuil/Mer, Bethune, Lille, where toponymy is showing a full germanisation of names, with full Germanic toponyms like Radinghem (Rado + Ing + Hem). Anglo-saxons colonized Boulonnais and Ponthieu, and Franks what is now Northern Artois and Flanders.

The impact of Frankish admixture (or Anglo-saxon one, obviously) seems to give some relatedness to English people, with people from Nord and Belgium overlapping with South East English.

About the late Neolithic cultures in North Central France, they must have been rich in EEF, relatively different from the ones found in BBs probably more Central European derived. And BBs became a major component in post BA British population.

moesan
10-15-2017, 05:44 PM
@Ffoucart
You're right in your explanations concerning Franks first settlements (toponymy). Concerning the later ones, (among them -court PNs) you're right too (some Gallo-Romans with germanic names)but that don't exclude partly latinized ("romancized") Franks lineages; anthropology seems confirming Germanic (of all sorts or people with close characteristics) strong input in: Normandy, North île-de-France, Flandres-Artois (your "frank" zone), Picardie (for the most), Alsace and Lorraine (North) and even North Savoie, with less but still visible input in Champagne, Franche-Comté (more North) Bourgogne (more North), rest of Savoie and even Lyonnais, Forez and North Dauphiné; of course concerning rural pops of 1950's and before. Eerytime the zones of "resistance ant-Germanics" are in bocages regions or hilly regions. I suppose that after occupation of strongholds, the Franks partly diluted into close Gallo-Roman regions, loosing they already relative purity but leaving some input. In the N-E corner of France (not plain East) I don't see what sort of Germanics could have been responsible of it, unless Franks? not the Vikings, not the Frisians, not the Saxons, not the Alamans, not the Burgundians. Concerning farmers, I don't see a big differences between Central Europe LBK ones and EEF (who already had WHG in them). Short: as a whole the small differences between firts farmers communauties had surely acted in favour of slight differenciation between BB's of Britain, Pariss.Bassin SOM and older Central Europe. Paris. Bassin was in meeting place of diverse influences.
My english is bad and lazy here but I know you know french, so. Just my thoughts.

ffoucart
10-17-2017, 10:07 AM
Outside Nord-Pas de Calais (Anglo-Saxons and Franks), Alsace/Lorraine (Alamans and Franks), Normandy (Anglo-Saxons and Vikings) and Franche-Comté (Burgonds, with toponyms in -ans), you don't find fully Germanic toponyms. Even if some detectable admixture occured in other parts of France (and it did, since everybody has some Frankish ancestry, even if limited), it doesn't account for a difference between Bretons and Central French. Frankish admixture was too low in Île de France or Touraine to be an explanation.

moesan
10-21-2017, 09:02 PM
I add tha breton languages has been spoken until the end of the XIX°Cy in NW Loire-Atlantique, and until end of XIII°/beginning of XIX° Cy in some parts of Morbihan, todate labelled "gallo" (Brittany roman dialect speaking) - until XIV°/XV° Cy the linguistic frontier was very far more towards East in Brittany, but marking rather a bilingual zone -

Sorry I made a mistake: I rewrite: "... until end of XVIII°/beginning of XIX°...", it's to say: end of 18th, beginning of 19th
I beg your pardon, but I think the bulk of readers had understood

redeyednewt
05-17-2018, 01:53 AM
I think too that Bretons Y-R1b-L21 is for the most the basis of a lot of L21 in the Isles and not the contrary and was there long before the Brittonic "emigration", but that said the great differences for L21 between Bretons and very close pops like Normans or Angevins or Western Poitou (Vendée) people points at the same time towards a supplement came later from the Isles (kind of return) even if a part of the difference could be explained by kind of isolation from the more continental influences - the (ancient) excess of red hairs in Brittany compared to neighbours, even Normans, and the fact this "excedent" was stronger in West (breton speaking) than in East could partially confirm it - until 1950 physical antrhopology of Brittany was not so level, and subregional distinctions were seen even if light -
and the differences with more southern atlantic pops points also towards an Isles people input -
breton language survival is surely linked to survival of gaulish in remote parts of western Aremorica (conservation of great number of Gaulish personal names in Western Aremorica during first Gallo-Romans stages) : all these facts temper the Isles input for a part but confirm it for another part - neither black nor white -

I agree with this. Do you know of any good books or not extremely dry studies about Y-R1b-L21 and Bretons/Brittany?

JonikW
05-17-2018, 10:03 AM
I agree with this. Do you know of any good books or not extremely dry studies about Y-R1b-L21 and Bretons/Brittany?

If you don't know it already, the late Jean Manco's book Blood of the Celts is an excellent and readable guide to Celtic DNA and history. It covers Brittany and the link with L21 as well as examining the other Celtic regions. I don't know of any Breton-only publications though.

redeyednewt
05-17-2018, 06:35 PM
If you don't know it already, the late Jean Manco's book Blood of the Celts is an excellent and readable guide to Celtic DNA and history. It covers Brittany and the link with L21 as well as examining the other Celtic regions. I don't know of any Breton-only publications though.

OK thanks, so what are some other titles of good books about this subject?

I looked up the book you mentioned here in your post, and people either love it, or hate it and say how it's not historically accurate, full of theory, and that it just pretty much is a data dump of YDNA information that does not actually show the sources for the YDNA testing.

I can read French but very slowly, and am not as fluent or basically a native speaker of it as I am with Spanish, English, and Italian.

moesan
05-18-2018, 03:49 PM
I agree with this. Do you know of any good books or not extremely dry studies about Y-R1b-L21 and Bretons/Brittany?

I am not aware of specific books about Y-R1b and Brittany, because as you know in france the question of allogenes is taboo, so the studies on genetics are seldom and centered on medical genetics - I red on some forum the newest consensus for the origin of Y-R1b would be that it gave birth in Cornwall; personally I doubt - what is possible is that its FIRST baby boom occurred in Cornwall, what is not the same thing - R1b L21 is also very common in Wales spite the litterature and folks are rather centered on Ireland -
maybe you could look at groups of private Y-haplo's researches on the net?
The books I now (not mumerous) about Brittany history have been written before the huge interest for DNA.
ATW if you want some details about Brittany ancient history, its languages (celtic and romance) and physical anthropology I think I can help a bit, at my level -
I 'll see myself to find more about L21;
Read you again, maybe.

redeyednewt
05-18-2018, 10:23 PM
I am not aware of specific books about Y-R1b and Brittany, because as you know in france the question of allogenes is taboo, so the studies on genetics are seldom and centered on medical genetics - I red on some forum the newest consensus for the origin of Y-R1b would be that it gave birth in Cornwall; personally I doubt - what is possible is that its FIRST baby boom occurred in Cornwall, what is not the same thing - R1b L21 is also very common in Wales spite the litterature and folks are rather centered on Ireland -
maybe you could look at groups of private Y-haplo's researches on the net?
The books I now (not mumerous) about Brittany history have been written before the huge interest for DNA.
ATW if you want some details about Brittany ancient history, its languages (celtic and romance) and physical anthropology I think I can help a bit, at my level -
I 'll see myself to find more about L21;
Read you again, maybe.

Thanks please tell me more about the history of Brittany and the ancient history, languages, and everything else. I have been to Northern France but never to Brittany.

JonikW
05-18-2018, 11:18 PM
Thanks please tell me more about the history of Brittany and the ancient history, languages, and everything else. I have been to Northern France but never to Brittany.

May I ask where you're from out of interest? There are some free books available online about Breton history and culture. One, called Brittany, is by Sabine Baring-Gould that I could recommend. He wrote several books about Celtic lands and culture that are worth reading. I always remember my grandmother telling me how her Welsh grandfather used to converse with a Breton onion seller, one in Welsh and the other in Breton. That must have been some time in the 19th century. I've been to Mont St Michel but never crossed over despite having travelled in Normandy many times. Hope to do it one day.

ffoucart
05-19-2018, 07:24 AM
I red on some forum the newest consensus for the origin of Y-R1b would be that it gave birth in Cornwall; personally I doubt - what is possible is that its FIRST baby boom occurred in Cornwall, what is not the same thing - R1b L21 is also very common in Wales spite the litterature and folks are rather centered on Ireland -


L21 origin is in Continental Europe. It came in the Isles with the Bell Beakers. There is no doubt about this since the last papers on BBs.

Camulogène Rix
05-19-2018, 09:25 AM
If you don't know it already, the late Jean Manco's book Blood of the Celts is an excellent and readable guide to Celtic DNA and history. It covers Brittany and the link with L21 as well as examining the other Celtic regions. I don't know of any Breton-only publications though.

Unfortunately, so far, no book or publication in French about Breton DNA. We just had a survey on Normand Y DNA from Cotentin carried out by the University of Leicester.

Below, the results of a Breton (Arnaud BZH) posted on the French thread. Very revealing IMO :

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.98
2 NorthEastEuropean 26.65
3 Steppe 25.17
4 Caucasian 15.22
5 NearEast 1.52
6 Amerindian 1.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 English (Kent) 2.59
2 English (Cornwall) 2.96
3 Irish (Connacht) 3.2
4 Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) 3.24
5 Irish (Ulster) 3.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) + 7% Sardinian (Sardinia) @ 1.94

Vrump
05-19-2018, 09:57 AM
Unfortunately, so far, no book or publication in French about Breton DNA. We just had a survey on Normand Y DNA from Cotentin carried out by the University of Leicester.

Below, the results of a Breton (Arnaud BZH) posted on the French thread. Very revealing IMO :

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.98
2 NorthEastEuropean 26.65
3 Steppe 25.17
4 Caucasian 15.22
5 NearEast 1.52
6 Amerindian 1.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 English (Kent) 2.59
2 English (Cornwall) 2.96
3 Irish (Connacht) 3.2
4 Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) 3.24
5 Irish (Ulster) 3.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) + 7% Sardinian (Sardinia) @ 1.94

Wtf :D

JonikW
05-19-2018, 03:19 PM
Don't know how high that Breton's Amerindian is, relatively speaking, but mine's certainly lower. I would love to see more Breton results.

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 31.55
2 NorthEastEuropean 27.14
3 Steppe 22.02
4 Caucasian 17.5
5 NearEast 0.95
6 Amerindian 0.59
7 Australian 0.24

Camulogène Rix
05-19-2018, 04:55 PM
Don't know how high that Breton's Amerindian is, relatively speaking, but mine's certainly lower. I would love to see more Breton results.

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 31.55
2 NorthEastEuropean 27.14
3 Steppe 22.02
4 Caucasian 17.5
5 NearEast 0.95
6 Amerindian 0.59
7 Australian 0.24

An other one (NW Brittany):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.82
2 Steppe 25.46
3 NorthEastEuropean 24.60
4 Caucasian 18.15.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.220825
2 English @ 3.708408
3 English @ 3.802596
4 Irish @ 3.833472
5 Scottish @ 3.967541

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% Scottish @ 2.760786

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish +25% Scottish +25% Spanish @ 2.685945

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Italian + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.415579

Who said "The wogs begin at Calais":D?

Saetro
05-21-2018, 07:22 AM
Who said "The wogs begin at Calais":D?

Something a little more insular, but ultimately self-critical is:

"The whole world's a little queer*,
except for thee and me.
And even thee's a little queer."

*Queer in the sense of other, alien, strange.

Jessie
05-21-2018, 08:03 AM
An other one (NW Brittany):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 29.82
2 Steppe 25.46
3 NorthEastEuropean 24.60
4 Caucasian 18.15.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.220825
2 English @ 3.708408
3 English @ 3.802596
4 Irish @ 3.833472
5 Scottish @ 3.967541

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French +50% Scottish @ 2.760786

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish +25% Scottish +25% Spanish @ 2.685945

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Italian + Scottish + Scottish + Scottish @ 2.415579

Who said "The wogs begin at Calais":D?

They have a newer version of that calculator which gives the regions. I'm actually Irish but get Shetland as my no 1. The components at the top I get are quite similar to the Breton. No 2 for me is Connacht which is correct as half my ancestry is from there. The other half being Munster. I think Bretons are very Northwest European.

This is my K16. It has all the different areas so is quite an interesting calculator.

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 28.78
2 NorthEastEuropean 28.47
3 Steppe 24.76
4 Caucasian 17.25


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 3.026841
2 Irish_Connacht @ 3.257971
3 English_Cornwall @ 3.428292
4 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 3.441684
5 Scottish_Highlands @ 3.632506
6 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.656255
7 English_Kent @ 3.765399
8 Irish_Ulster @ 3.898009
9 Irish_Munster @ 3.898047
10 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 3.996608
11 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.037261
12 Norwegian_Norwegia @ 4.063393
13 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.497347
14 Irish_Leinster @ 4.546865
15 Scottish_Fife @ 4.574359
16 English_England @ 4.587379
17 French_WestFrance @ 4.685046
18 Scottish_Borders @ 4.740075
19 Icelandic_Iceland @ 4.765808
20 Dutch_Netherlands @ 4.839308

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +50% Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.399938


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% Pole_EastPoland +25% Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.107442


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.929165
2 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.931759
3 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.949504
4 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.995879
5 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.996008
6 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.034786
7 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.039676
8 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.045938
9 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.046312
10 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.051080
11 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.074168
12 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.076143
13 English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.088080
14 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.092962
15 English_Kent + English_Kent + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.107442
16 German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.108890
17 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.110984
18 English_Kent + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.111929
19 English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.113286
20 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Icelandic_Iceland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.119094

fabrice E
05-21-2018, 11:30 AM
I'm a Breton (father :east and mother :central) (mother name Kerbouet) more than 10 générations in a radius about thirty kilometers around my parents'birth place.
I'm what we calle here an old "haut-breton"

this is K16 MLDP :

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 31.65
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.25
3 Steppe 24.18
4 Caucasian 16.02
5 Australian 1.24
6 EastAfrican 0.75
7 Indian 0.47
8 NorthAfrican 0.45

Using 1 population approximation:
1 English_Kent @ 1.965003
2 English_Cornwall @ 3.323384
3 Irish_Connacht @ 3.679815
4 French_WestFrance @ 3.988474
5 French_France @ 4.065972
6 Irish_Ulster @ 4.072950
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.332509
8 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.339025
9 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.528054
10 Irish_Leinster @ 4.578122
11 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.778811
12 English_England @ 5.075400
13 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 5.094903
14 Scottish_Borders @ 5.303909
15 Scottish_Fife @ 5.383324
16 Irish_Munster @ 5.446864
17 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 5.663368
18 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 5.883325
19 German_Germany @ 7.024488
20 Welsh_Wales @ 7.222238

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% English_Kent @ 1.965003


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% English_Kent +25% French_France @ 1.652419


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
1 English_Kent + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 1.652419
2 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.763583
3 English_Cornwall + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 1.792451
4 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.792935


My wife is "just" half breton, Father's name Derrien, but from west britonny more than 10 generations of "leonards".
We are waiting for her uncle'results, he is 100% "leonard"
Some historians think Leon is the firt place of bretons 'migrations

Her MLDP k16 :
# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 33.11
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.17
3 Steppe 24.11
4 Caucasian 17.62


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_France @ 3.513647
2 English_Kent @ 3.592026
3 French_WestFrance @ 4.772813
4 Irish_Connacht @ 4.972022
5 English_Cornwall @ 5.097837
6 Scottish_Grampian @ 5.540810
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 5.567241
8 Irish_Ulster @ 5.612391
9 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 5.831077
10 Irish_Leinster @ 5.869480
11 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 5.891860
12 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 5.916510
13 English_England @ 6.054395
14 German_Germany @ 6.142331
15 Scottish_Fife @ 6.212925
16 Scottish_Borders @ 6.269038
17 Irish_Munster @ 6.522125
18 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 7.348131
19 French_NorthwestFrance @ 7.443926
20 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 7.499424

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% French_France @ 2.641462


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% French_France +25% French_France @ 2.641462


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France + French_France @ 2.641462
2 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.718076
3 French_France + French_France + French_France + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.784181
4 French_France + French_France + French_France + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.811165
5 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.833755
6 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany @ 2.844792
7 French_SouthFrance + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.847082
8 Basque_France + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.852273
9 Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.860253
10 English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France + German_Germany @ 2.862330
11 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Irish_Connacht @ 2.866322
12 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + French_France @ 2.877235
13 German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 2.877387
14 English_Cornwall + English_Kent + French_France + French_France @ 2.881074
15 French_France + French_France + French_France + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.882551
16 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 2.899603
17 English_Kent + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 2.900489
18 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Hungarian_Hungary + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.901979
19 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.915373
20 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Slovak_Slovakia @ 2.922427

Camulogène Rix
05-21-2018, 11:38 AM
The three 100% Breton samples posted here are very similar. Probably close to our ancient Gauls, when Julius Caesar invaded Gallia Comata.

Finn
05-21-2018, 01:24 PM
Something to compare with I have a outmost NNW European(Germanic) ancestry, in MDLP K16 Shetland, Kent, seems to be a kind of common ground, otherwise I’m shifted more north east wards....


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NorthEastEuropean 30.21
2 Neolithic 28.00
3 Steppe 22.72
4 Caucasian 18.73


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Dutch_Netherlands @ 3.780648
2 Swede_Sweden @ 3.966104
3 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.302656
4 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 4.661950
5 Norwegian_Norwegia @ 4.959959
6 Scottish_Highlands @ 5.114965
7 German_Lipsian_(Saxony) @ 5.117529
8 Irish_Munster @ 5.214108
9 Irish_Connacht @ 5.253736
10 Scottish_Fife @ 5.304141
11 Scottish_Borders @ 5.401813
12 Pole_EastPoland @ 5.420337
13 Hungarian_WestUkraine @ 5.530766
14 Sorb_Lusatia @ 5.531497
15 German_Germany @ 5.678309
16 Pole_WestPoland @ 5.848463
17 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 5.851565
18 French_WestFrance @ 5.858380
19 Scottish_Grampian @ 5.878081
20 Icelandic_Iceland @ 5.889707

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% Pole_WestPoland @ 2.589254


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% German_Lipsian_(Saxony) +25% Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 2.374717


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
1 English_Kent + German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.173771
2 English_Kent + German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.242975
3 English_Kent + German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.281072
4 English_Kent + German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 2.289721
5 Belarusian_Belarus + English_Kent + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.314009
6 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Pole_WestPoland @ 2.334133
7 German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.339440
8 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + English_Kent + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 2.345254
9 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.347404
10 Belarusian_Belarus + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.364091
11 German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.366612
12 German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.368225
13 English_Kent + English_Kent + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Lithuanian_Lithuania @ 2.374717
14 French_France + German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.377787
15 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Sorb_Lusatia @ 2.377944
16 English_Kent + French_France + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.382425
17 Belarusian_Belarus + English_Kent + German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland @ 2.383555
18 Belarusian_Belarus + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.392947
19 English_Kent + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Russians-West_WestRussian @ 2.395781
20 English_Cornwall + German_Germany + Lithuanian_Lithuania + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.406873

Camulogène Rix
05-21-2018, 02:15 PM
I am myself not very Breton (just 1/8) but I believe this calculator detects NW distant ancestry through contemporary Celtic populations:

1 50% Irish_Leinster +25% Italian_SouthItaly +25% Provencal_Provence @ 1.627942

fabrice E
05-21-2018, 02:38 PM
among the gedmatch's calculators which one would be the most relevant for a comparative british island / brittany / gauls ?

Garimund
05-21-2018, 02:40 PM
I'm a Breton (father :east and mother :central) (mother name Kerbouet) more than 10 générations in a radius about thirty kilometers around my parents'birth place.
I'm what we calle here an old "haut-breton"

this is K16 MLDP :

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 31.65
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.25
3 Steppe 24.18
4 Caucasian 16.02
5 Australian 1.24
6 EastAfrican 0.75
7 Indian 0.47
8 NorthAfrican 0.45

Using 1 population approximation:
1 English_Kent @ 1.965003
2 English_Cornwall @ 3.323384
3 Irish_Connacht @ 3.679815
4 French_WestFrance @ 3.988474
5 French_France @ 4.065972
6 Irish_Ulster @ 4.072950
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.332509
8 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.339025
9 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.528054
10 Irish_Leinster @ 4.578122
11 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.778811
12 English_England @ 5.075400
13 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 5.094903
14 Scottish_Borders @ 5.303909
15 Scottish_Fife @ 5.383324
16 Irish_Munster @ 5.446864
17 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 5.663368
18 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 5.883325
19 German_Germany @ 7.024488
20 Welsh_Wales @ 7.222238

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% English_Kent @ 1.965003


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% English_Kent +25% French_France @ 1.652419


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++
1 English_Kent + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 1.652419
2 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.763583
3 English_Cornwall + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 1.792451
4 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.792935


My wife is "just" half breton, Father's name Derrien, but from west britonny more than 10 generations of "leonards".
We are waiting for her uncle'results, he is 100% "leonard"
Some historians think Leon is the firt place of bretons 'migrations

Her MLDP k16 :
# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 33.11
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.17
3 Steppe 24.11
4 Caucasian 17.62


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_France @ 3.513647
2 English_Kent @ 3.592026
3 French_WestFrance @ 4.772813
4 Irish_Connacht @ 4.972022
5 English_Cornwall @ 5.097837
6 Scottish_Grampian @ 5.540810
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 5.567241
8 Irish_Ulster @ 5.612391
9 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 5.831077
10 Irish_Leinster @ 5.869480
11 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 5.891860
12 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 5.916510
13 English_England @ 6.054395
14 German_Germany @ 6.142331
15 Scottish_Fife @ 6.212925
16 Scottish_Borders @ 6.269038
17 Irish_Munster @ 6.522125
18 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 7.348131
19 French_NorthwestFrance @ 7.443926
20 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 7.499424

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% French_France @ 2.641462


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% French_France +25% French_France @ 2.641462


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France + French_France @ 2.641462
2 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.718076
3 French_France + French_France + French_France + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.784181
4 French_France + French_France + French_France + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.811165
5 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.833755
6 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany @ 2.844792
7 French_SouthFrance + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.847082
8 Basque_France + German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.852273
9 Dutch_Netherlands + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.860253
10 English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France + German_Germany @ 2.862330
11 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Irish_Connacht @ 2.866322
12 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + French_France @ 2.877235
13 German_Germany + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 2.877387
14 English_Cornwall + English_Kent + French_France + French_France @ 2.881074
15 French_France + French_France + French_France + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.882551
16 Dutch_Netherlands + Dutch_Netherlands + German_Germany + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 2.899603
17 English_Kent + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 2.900489
18 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Hungarian_Hungary + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.901979
19 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Irish_Connacht + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.915373
20 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Slovak_Slovakia @ 2.922427

Your results are similar to mine.

Population Percent
1 Neolithic 31.87
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.71
3 Steppe 23.31
4 Caucasian 16.09
5 NorthAfrican 1.48


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 English_Kent @ 1.933055
2 English_Cornwall @ 3.669934
3 French_WestFrance @ 3.686559
4 French_France @ 3.720433
5 Irish_Connacht @ 3.902753
6 Irish_Ulster @ 4.319773
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.513285
8 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.599956
9 Irish_Leinster @ 4.665015
10 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.766692
11 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.799759
12 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 4.810782
13 Scottish_Borders @ 4.873308
14 English_England @ 5.131877
15 Scottish_Fife @ 5.295061
16 Irish_Munster @ 5.533674
17 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 5.917803
18 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 6.343207
19 German_Germany @ 6.365830
20 Welsh_Wales @ 6.620924

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +50% French_France @ 1.767038


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% English_Kent +25% French_France @ 1.400111


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 English_Kent + English_Kent + English_Kent + French_France @ 1.400111
2 Belarusian_Belarus + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.471119
3 Belarusian_Belarus + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.493333
4 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.505063
5 Belarusian_Kobryn_Brest + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.513466
6 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.514439
7 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.516162
8 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.523031
9 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Pole_EastPoland @ 1.523703
10 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.532009
11 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.532350
12 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_Poland @ 1.537580
13 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.537642
14 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.548145
15 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Spanish_Aragon @ 1.560970
16 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 1.562489
17 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.563644
18 English_Kent + French_France + French_France + Icelandic_Iceland @ 1.565631
19 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.567753
20 Belarusian_Kobryn_Brest + French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.569400

Camulogène Rix
05-21-2018, 05:55 PM
among the gedmatch's calculators which one would be the most relevant for a comparative british island / brittany / gauls ?

Good question, but so far we haven't analyzed any 'official' ancient Gaul sample. The gladiators from York cemetery (circa 200 AD) are probably good proxies (e.g. 6 DRIF 18, 6 DRIF 21, 6 DRIF 22 and 6 DRIF 23). With Eurogenes G25 and nMonte you can probably try to model modern Breton with those ancient samples. You should make the test with your genuine "léonard".

fabrice E
06-28-2018, 12:18 PM
THE Uncle

An old lineage from North-West Brittany

MDLP k16
MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 28.65
2 Steppe 26.00
3 NorthEastEuropean 24.46
4 Caucasian 19.31
5 Arctic 1.13


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish_Connacht @ 4.187612
2 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.481524
3 Irish_Munster @ 4.536026
4 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.608944
5 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 4.698655
6 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.727696
7 English_England @ 4.864382
8 English_Cornwall @ 4.936431
9 Scottish_Fife @ 4.942684
10 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.972278
11 Irish_Leinster @ 5.180924
12 French_WestFrance @ 5.208777
13 English_Kent @ 5.348326
14 Irish_Ulster @ 5.395233
15 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 5.636705
16 Dutch_Netherlands @ 5.867221
17 Scottish_Borders @ 6.149356
18 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 6.473118
19 French_France @ 6.785061
20 Welsh_Wales @ 7.146401

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Germany +50% Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.843938


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish_Argyll_bute +25% Scottish_Argyll_bute +25% Serbian_Serbia @ 3.750373


Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Italian_Bergamo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.122383
2 Italian_Tuscany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.248737
3 Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.372903
4 Italian_Tuscany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.404491
5 Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.419054
6 English_Kent + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.452768
7 English_Cornwall + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.511790
8 Icelandic_Iceland + Italian_Tuscany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.566730
9 Macedonian_Macedonia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.569306
10 Italian_Tuscany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.571045
11 Kosovar_Kosovo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.581652
12 Italian_Tuscany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.583362
13 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.609374
14 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.614168
15 Italian_Bergamo + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.621346
16 English_Kent + Montenegrian_Montenegro + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.630453
17 Montenegrian_Montenegro + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.633441
18 Irish_Connacht + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.655021
19 Icelandic_Iceland + Italian_Bergamo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.655099
20 Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.658629

erwangery
08-03-2018, 11:51 AM
To give you an insight of a breton ancestry, my mother who is from Bro Fanch in the east of Cornouaille in Brittany and quite far from the sea, seems to be more irish than breton :noidea:

Her correlation values for K36 are : Ireland: 0.96332, Orkney: 0.9593, Cumbria: 0.95711, N. Ireland: 0.95619, England SW: 0.95547, Wales: 0.95405, Scotland: 0.95248, FR West: 0.95082, FR NW: 0.94892, England NE: 0.94604, FR Brittany: 0.94389.
24971

On the other hand, on her PCA, she lies between Brittany and England (Cornwall?) 24972 and on her dendogram, she is closer to Scotland. 24973

All her ancestors since the 17th century were from this region of Brittany, so no recent ancestry from the Isles.

JMcB
08-03-2018, 04:41 PM
Well, for the fun of it, I’ll throw in one more comparison. I’m primarily English, Scottish and Irish (approximately 88%) and in that order, with the remaining 12% coming from Italy and Germany. This is borne out by both my paper trail and my testing results.

Here’s my MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 30.95
2 NorthEastEuropean 25.59
3 Steppe 22.42
4 Caucasian 19.78

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 French_WestFrance @ 3.650861
2 German_Germany @ 3.798060
3 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 4.007299
4 Scottish_Fife @ 4.271328
5 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.294386
6 Irish_Connacht @ 4.423266
7 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.487159
8 French_France @ 4.537898
9 English_Kent @ 4.654610
10 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.672082
11 English_England @ 4.732147
12 Scottish_Borders @ 4.858172
13 Welsh_Wales @ 5.104924
14 Irish_Munster @ 5.126318
15 French_NorthwestFrance @ 5.134738
16 Irish_Leinster @ 5.205167
17 Dutch_Netherlands @ 5.234201
18 French_EastFrance @ 5.298896
19 English_Cornwall @ 5.344982
20 Irish_Ulster @ 5.388031

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch_Netherlands +50% French_France @ 2.303241


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Germany +25% German_Germany +25% Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.156524

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++

1 German_Germany + German_Germany + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.156524
2 French_France + German_Germany + German_Germany + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.171510
3 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + French_France + German_Germany @ 2.181731
4 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + German_Germany + German_Germany @ 2.204596
5 German_Germany + German_Germany + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.217764
6 English_Kent + German_Germany + German_Germany + Irish_Connacht @ 2.218056
7 English_Kent + German_Germany + German_Germany + Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.227112
8 English_Kent + French_France + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + German_Germany @ 2.232141
9 French_France + German_Germany + German_Germany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.241388
10 French_France + German_Germany + German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.244819

To be honest, as far as Gedmatch calculators go, this one is pretty decent in my case. As I’m guessing they’re reading my English ancestry as French & German but that’s a guess.

JonikW
08-03-2018, 08:32 PM
Here's my map and top correlation values for another comparison. It might be interesting because of my Welsh ancestry.

24976

Trelvern
10-16-2018, 11:53 AM
Here's my map and top correlation values for another comparison. It might be interesting because of my Welsh ancestry.

24976

Hi

I just received my results from living DNA

mtDNA K1a, YDNA R-U106 S497 (not very common in France)

LivingDNA cautious mode
Great Britain and Ireland 76.8 ; Northwestern Europe 15.7(France) ; South Italy (Tuscany) 4.6 ;South 2.8 (basque)

EastAnglia 18.9;South Central England18.6;Cornwall13.4;North Yorkshire11.2;Orkney4.4;Cumbria2.7;NorthWales1.9; GreatBritain and Ireland unassigned5.8

Not too celtic!
What is South Central England exactly?

JonikW
10-16-2018, 03:54 PM
Hi

I just received my results from living DNA

mtDNA K1a, YDNA R-U106 S497 (not very common in France)

LivingDNA cautious mode
Great Britain and Ireland 76.8 ; Northwestern Europe 15.7(France) ; South Italy (Tuscany) 4.6 ;South 2.8 (basque)

EastAnglia 18.9;South Central England18.6;Cornwall13.4;North Yorkshire11.2;Orkney4.4;Cumbria2.7;NorthWales1.9; GreatBritain and Ireland unassigned5.8

Not too celtic!
What is South Central England exactly?

Living DNA's definition:
"The areas known to us today as Gloucestershire, Oxfordshire and Somerset (South Central England) share a genetic signature and archaeological history..."
There might well be more Celtic ancestry surviving in this part of England than in areas such as the southeast.

Trelvern
10-16-2018, 05:23 PM
not Wiltshire?
South-East actually?

Phoebe Watts
10-16-2018, 05:33 PM
South Central England shows up for me and for some other Welsh testers too. It looks as if South Wales can sometimes show up as South Central England. So perhaps more celtic than it looks?

JonikW
10-16-2018, 05:49 PM
not Wiltshire?
South-East actually?

The map they show seems to include part of Wiltshire. This region of England is more Wessex or West Country than South East. Particularly Somerset of course.

Trelvern
10-16-2018, 07:20 PM
South Central England shows up for me and for some other Welsh testers too. It looks as if South Wales can sometimes show up as South Central England. So perhaps more celtic than it looks?




some results were predictable (south coast), others less. Brittany is said to be close to Ireland and Wales. This is far from being the case for me. Welsh scores are low. The lion's share (It is the case to say it) is for England.
Perhaps it is linked to the haplogroup U106, which is not widespread in Brittany.

JonikW
10-16-2018, 08:16 PM
Did you do the Celtic/Germanic test? I seem to remember you did. If that's so, what did it show? I personally think the above two tests and Lucasz's analysis in combination give as good a picture as people of Celtic and other North West European ancestry can get right now.

Trelvern
10-17-2018, 05:23 AM
Did you do the Celtic/Germanic test? I seem to remember you did. If that's so, what did it show? I personally think the above two tests and Lucasz's analysis in combination give as good a picture as people of Celtic and other North West European ancestry can get right now.

When I try to summarize all these documents, I see a proximity to South West England (especially Cornwall), the South in general, but also (and it's a little bit a surprise) with the North of England. Associated with the Brigantes, the kingdoms of Elmet and Rheged who spoke an early Welsh?

"A people from southern Denmark, they were to give their name to England and on a blood-soaked day by the rapids of the Swale, they slaughtered the Celtic nobility of Yorkshire and eclipsed a native culture. However, it is likely that there are many Elmetians and Brigantians living quietly where their ancestors lived for many centuries. Only DNA can find them" (Yorkshire post)

Coincidence: a wreck loaded with lead ingots bearing the mark of Brigantes and Iceni was found off Perros-Guirec (Penros+ Gireg a welsh "saint") . The 4th century can be.

Few links to Ireland while the team at the University of Leicester, who studied the possible impact of the Vikings on the Cotentin population, said that Normandy had links with England and Brittany with Ireland.Too simple.

The Celtic / Germanic PCA shows proximity to ancient individuals: England iron age and Roman York 03 (U106 too!) suggesting brythonic ancestors."Such a degree of similarity to Britain's Iron Age population is nothing short of amazing considering the fact that the Bretons left the British isles starting from the 5th century CE."Agamemnon said.2675526756267572675826759

Jessie
10-17-2018, 07:13 AM
THE Uncle

An old lineage from North-West Brittany

MDLP k16
MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 28.65
2 Steppe 26.00
3 NorthEastEuropean 24.46
4 Caucasian 19.31
5 Arctic 1.13


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish_Connacht @ 4.187612
2 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.481524
3 Irish_Munster @ 4.536026
4 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 4.608944
5 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 4.698655
6 Scottish_Highlands @ 4.727696
7 English_England @ 4.864382
8 English_Cornwall @ 4.936431
9 Scottish_Fife @ 4.942684
10 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 4.972278
11 Irish_Leinster @ 5.180924
12 French_WestFrance @ 5.208777
13 English_Kent @ 5.348326
14 Irish_Ulster @ 5.395233
15 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 5.636705
16 Dutch_Netherlands @ 5.867221
17 Scottish_Borders @ 6.149356
18 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 6.473118
19 French_France @ 6.785061
20 Welsh_Wales @ 7.146401

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Germany +50% Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.843938


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Scottish_Argyll_bute +25% Scottish_Argyll_bute +25% Serbian_Serbia @ 3.750373


Using 4 populations approximation:

1 Italian_Bergamo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.122383
2 Italian_Tuscany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.248737
3 Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.372903
4 Italian_Tuscany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.404491
5 Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.419054
6 English_Kent + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.452768
7 English_Cornwall + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.511790
8 Icelandic_Iceland + Italian_Tuscany + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.566730
9 Macedonian_Macedonia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.569306
10 Italian_Tuscany + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.571045
11 Kosovar_Kosovo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.581652
12 Italian_Tuscany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.583362
13 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.609374
14 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.614168
15 Italian_Bergamo + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.621346
16 English_Kent + Montenegrian_Montenegro + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.630453
17 Montenegrian_Montenegro + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.633441
18 Irish_Connacht + Macedonian_Macedonia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.655021
19 Icelandic_Iceland + Italian_Bergamo + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.655099
20 Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.658629

Not sure what can be gleaned from the calculators but it is interesting comparing your Uncle's results to mine. I am actually half Irish Connacht which is correct in this and my other half is Irish Munster. It is obvious that Bretons have a lot in common with Isles populations and I wish there was a study done on Brittany like the Irish DNA Atlas or the People of the British Isles project. It would be great if one was done for the whole of France. Comparing your Uncle's results to mine the only thing that stands out to me is that he has a more Southern pull i.e. Italian_Bergamo and Macedonia etc but you would most likely need quite a few samples to see how common that is.

Here is my K16 to compare.

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 28.81
2 NorthEastEuropean 28.47
3 Steppe 24.72
4 Caucasian 17.17


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Shetlandic_Shetland_Islands @ 2.963415
2 Irish_Connacht @ 3.216984
3 English_Cornwall @ 3.360178
4 Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 3.394771
5 Scottish_Highlands @ 3.581835
6 Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 3.637670
7 English_Kent @ 3.701229
8 Irish_Ulster @ 3.816744
9 Irish_Munster @ 3.863197
10 Scottish_Dumfries_Galloway @ 3.977500
11 Irish_Cork_Kerry @ 3.981220
12 Norwegian_Norwegia @ 4.018786
13 Scottish_Grampian @ 4.458179
14 Irish_Leinster @ 4.483775
15 Scottish_Fife @ 4.540159
16 English_England @ 4.540614
17 French_WestFrance @ 4.631948
18 Scottish_Borders @ 4.676667
19 Icelandic_Iceland @ 4.712835
20 Dutch_Netherlands @ 4.857018

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish_Connacht +50% Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.351533


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% English_Kent +25% Orcadian_Orkney_Islands +25% Pole_EastPoland @ 2.047776


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.864479
2 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.879519
3 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.895129
4 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.931060
5 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.946056
6 German_Germany + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.957354
7 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.964153
8 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.971025
9 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.975843
10 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 1.983276
11 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 1.999724
12 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Norwegian_Norwegia + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.007068
13 German_Germany + Icelandic_Iceland + Scottish_Argyll_bute + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.014591
14 English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.046614
15 English_Kent + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Pole_EastPoland @ 2.047776
16 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.050302
17 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + English_Kent + Icelandic_Iceland @ 2.052715
18 Dutch_Netherlands + English_Kent + English_Kent + Norwegian_Norwegia @ 2.053506
19 English_Kent + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands + Orcadian_Orkney_Islands @ 2.055315
20 English_Kent + English_Kent + Pole_EastPoland + Scottish_Argyll_bute @ 2.055377

Trelvern
10-17-2018, 10:34 AM
deleted

Trelvern
10-17-2018, 10:35 AM
[QUOTE=Jessie;510442]Not sure what can be gleaned from the calculators but it is interesting comparing your Uncle's results to mine. I am actually half Irish Connacht which is correct in this and my other half is Irish Munster. It is obvious that Bretons have a lot in common with Isles populations and I wish there was a study done on Brittany like the Irish DNA Atlas or the People of the British Isles project. It would be great if one was done for the whole of France. Comparing your Uncle's results to mine the only thing that stands out to me is that he has a more Southern pull i.e. Italian_Bergamo and Macedonia etc but you would most likely need quite a few samples to see how common that is.













A systematic study of DNA such as that conducted in the Isles is currently unthinkable and probably for a long time yet.
And this for historical reasons (ww2, Vichy, the republican tradition)
France has still not ratified the European Charter for Minority Languages ​​for similar reasons.
DNA investigations are only allowed for medical or judicial issues.

Jessie
10-17-2018, 11:25 AM
[QUOTE=Jessie;510442]Not sure what can be gleaned from the calculators but it is interesting comparing your Uncle's results to mine. I am actually half Irish Connacht which is correct in this and my other half is Irish Munster. It is obvious that Bretons have a lot in common with Isles populations and I wish there was a study done on Brittany like the Irish DNA Atlas or the People of the British Isles project. It would be great if one was done for the whole of France. Comparing your Uncle's results to mine the only thing that stands out to me is that he has a more Southern pull i.e. Italian_Bergamo and Macedonia etc but you would most likely need quite a few samples to see how common that is.













A systematic study of DNA such as that conducted in the Isles is currently unthinkable and probably for a long time yet.
And this for historical reasons (ww2, Vichy, the republican tradition)
France has still not ratified the European Charter for Minority Languages ​​for similar reasons.
DNA investigations are only allowed for medical or judicial issues.

That is incredibly frustrating as France is obviously very important genetically to Europe and in particular to the Isles. There is a strong connection especially to Northern France re autosomal and ydna. With the Irish DNA Atlas they found a Breton-like admixture across the whole isles with the Irish having the most. It would be so interesting to see a similar study for France for so many reasons. I'm sure French people would love to see one done. Not sure why the French Government has issues with this. I hope things change in the not too distant future.

Trelvern
10-17-2018, 11:44 AM
Deleted

Trelvern
10-17-2018, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=Trelvern;510528]

That is incredibly frustrating as France is obviously very important genetically to Europe and in particular to the Isles. There is a strong connection especially to Northern France re autosomal and ydna. With the Irish DNA Atlas they found a Breton-like admixture across the whole isles with the Irish having the most. It would be so interesting to see a similar study for France for so many reasons. I'm sure French people would love to see one done. Not sure why the French Government has issues with this. I hope things change in the not too distant future.

Thanks
I hope so.

Tolan
10-17-2018, 12:49 PM
Trelvern,
I opened a post from those who have GB and Ireland with Livingdna, without having ancestors from those countries.
I added you in the table.
I put the GreatBritain&Ireland results to 100% for everyone to compare

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14877-No-british-Irish-ancestors-but-you-have-with-Livingdna-post-your-results!

Phoebe Watts
10-19-2018, 10:25 AM
some results were predictable (south coast), others less. Brittany is said to be close to Ireland and Wales. This is far from being the case for me. Welsh scores are low. The lion's share (It is the case to say it) is for England.
Perhaps it is linked to the haplogroup U106, which is not widespread in Brittany.

I think you are right that Bretons will be similar to similar to the Irish and the Welsh and Cornish. And because people left Britain for Brittany such a long time ago you are right to look at brythonic people beyond modern Wales. So the south west of England; the Welsh borders; and the Old North, including Yorkshire and Cumbria will also have similarities.

Living DNA is very good at picking up Welsh ancestry and allocating it to North Wales and South Wales (and the South Wales Borders and North-West of England). My understanding is that they are picking up recent drift - after the settlements in Brittany. So I guess that LDNA can see that you look like brythonic people, but also that you don't have those recent signals from north Wales or south Wales, so you are being allocated to other regions with older brythonic populations.

Jessie
10-20-2018, 04:56 AM
some results were predictable (south coast), others less. Brittany is said to be close to Ireland and Wales. This is far from being the case for me. Welsh scores are low. The lion's share (It is the case to say it) is for England.
Perhaps it is linked to the haplogroup U106, which is not widespread in Brittany.

You won't get a good match with Ireland using LivingDNA because many Irish don't even get much Irish on that test. It is lacking Irish samples so isn't that great at picking up Irish ancestry in the majority of cases. From memory they only have 7 or 8 Irish samples. :)

Trelvern
10-20-2018, 09:34 AM
You won't get a good match with Ireland using LivingDNA because many Irish don't even get much Irish on that test. It is lacking Irish samples so isn't that great at picking up Irish ancestry in the majority of cases. From memory they only have 7 or 8 Irish samples. :)

Certainly
but compared to other Bretons (for instance Tolan who gets 13.3 for Ireland) I see some differences. I have higher scores in Cornwall East Anglia North Yorkshire.My results in the Isles practically reproduce the U106 distribution map.

but of course this is only genetics and not culture (by far the most important)2681826819

Jessie
10-20-2018, 10:33 AM
Certainly
but compared to other Bretons (for instance Tolan who gets 13.3 for Ireland) I see some differences. I have higher scores in Cornwall East Anglia North Yorkshire.My results in the Isles practically reproduce the U106 distribution map.

but of course this is only genetics and not culture (by far the most important)2681826819

That's interesting that Tolan got 13.3 for Ireland that's more than my fully Irish daughter who got 11.7% and there are many fully Irish that got less than that so I think until LDA incorporate their Irish samples it is a bit hit and miss for Irish ancestry.

Trelvern
10-20-2018, 10:52 AM
That's interesting that Tolan got 13.3 for Ireland that's more than my fully Irish daughter who got 11.7% and there are many fully Irish that got less than that so I think until LDA incorporate their Irish samples it is a bit hit and miss for Irish ancestry.

yes I know that these numbers do not mean much by themselves. I get about 76% of "British" and I do not take it literally.I am not insane! All Bretons are british for LDNA! I just wanted to point the gap between Tolan and me as an example of Breton diversity on which we do not know much.

Helgenes50
10-20-2018, 11:25 AM
yes I know that these numbers do not mean much by themselves. I get about 76% of "British" and I do not take it literally.I am not insane! All Bretons are british for LDNA! I just wanted to point the gap between Tolan and me as an example of Breton diversity on which we do not know much.

I would like to know what they get for NW Normans since we are very close on the PCAs
With 23andMe I get >41 % of British Irish ( One point with England, like for France) 42 % for Davidski a few years ago ( below on my profile with the IBD test)
For example my first cousin always on 23andMe 50 % From West Brittany (Leon/Tregor) gets 46 % of BI, our results knowing that I am full Norman are very similar.

Helgenes50
10-20-2018, 12:16 PM
I found thanks to Google a map showing the road followed by the Bretons to Armorica.

But I don't see why these bretons would come only from Cornwall and Wales and not from the south of England, the two banks of the Channel having a common history, like the Dorset and Cherbourg.

26826

Phoebe Watts
10-20-2018, 01:08 PM
I found thanks to Google a map showing the road followed by the Bretons to Armorica.

But I don't see why these bretons would come only from Cornwall and Wales and not from the south of England, the two banks of the Channel having a common history, like the Dorset and Cherbourg.



I think the map has confused peoples, time and place. The lines on this map aren't really relevant for the time brythonic people went to Armorica. It would take a series of maps to tell this tale!

Helgenes50
10-20-2018, 02:43 PM
Phoebe,
Yes I know, for me the interest of this map, it shows a direction towards what is today Normandy and not only Brittany and Galicia as usual

Phoebe Watts
10-20-2018, 04:23 PM
Phoebe,
Yes I know, for me the interest of this map, it shows a direction towards what is today Normandy and not only Brittany and Galicia as usual

Yes - I thought the term Armorica covered an area wide enough to allow for the uncertainty over the exact area of the migration.

Helgenes50
10-20-2018, 06:15 PM
Yes - I thought the term Armorica covered an area wide enough to allow for the uncertainty over the exact area of the migration.

I agree and what is now Western Normandy was part of this Armorica.
Armoricans can be understood as: those who are along the sea
or in front of the sea. In modern Breton: Ar re (a) zo dirag ar mor... or tost d'ar mor
And this sea is the Channel
I am a descendant of Unelles, an Armorican people who bravely fought the Romans as much as the Venetes and I am very proud of them. Their chief Viridovix
M222 which is an Irish and Scottish marker is present in Cotentin. Before or after the Bretons arrival, hard to say.

JonikW
10-20-2018, 08:38 PM
You've got good reason to be proud. The first time I went on holiday outside Britain we drove down to Normandy and visited Mont St Michel on the border with Brittany. I was a teenager then. I've visited Normandy many times in recent years, using Rouen as a base. It's one of the best places on earth in my opinion. All our tribes were closely related in ancient times and I love our shared history.

JonikW
10-20-2018, 08:56 PM
I found thanks to Google a map showing the road followed by the Bretons to Armorica.

But I don't see why these bretons would come only from Cornwall and Wales and not from the south of England, the two banks of the Channel having a common history, like the Dorset and Cherbourg.

26826

I think you've just made an important point that could explain southeast English signals in Bretons, for example.

Phoebe Watts
10-20-2018, 09:24 PM
I agree and what is now Western Normandy was part of this Armorica.
Armoricans can be understood as: those who are along the sea
or in front of the sea. In modern Breton: Ar re (a) zo dirag ar mor... or tost d'ar mor
And this sea is the Channel
I am a descendant of Unelles, an Armorican people who bravely fought the Romans as much as the Venetes and I am very proud of them. Their chief Viridovix
M222 which is an Irish and Scottish marker is present in Cotentin. Before or after the Bretons arrival, hard to say.

Yes - Ar for in Welsh, as opposed to Ar goed for the interior.

It is good that you raise awareness of the history of your people - I will read about them. It seems obvious that there were links across the sea and several migrations from more than one direction. I can make the same kind of connections between Anglesey, the Isle of Man, and the Norse and Irish influence in that part of the world.

Trelvern
11-03-2018, 06:15 AM
I think you've just made an important point that could explain southeast English signals in Bretons, for example.

I even think that there may have been Germanic mixtures (angles can be) / Briton
This could explain why we find today in Brittany some populations of Celto / Germanic genetically close to Normandy.

Otherwise, I should be L21 and get my best scores in the West and not have any noticeable results in North Yorkshire, East Anglia or Southeast.

The migration spread over several centuries and it seems logical that it was the people in contact with the Anglo-Saxon who were the most concerned and not the Welsh for example

moesan
11-03-2018, 10:08 AM
I found thanks to Google a map showing the road followed by the Bretons to Armorica.

But I don't see why these bretons would come only from Cornwall and Wales and not from the south of England, the two banks of the Channel having a common history, like the Dorset and Cherbourg.

26826

Today Wales and Cornwall, beside recent non Celtic inflood, reflect later history with local drifts, as said by someones. But in old Brittonia, they were maybe less Celtic than other regions of non-Anglo-Saxon Britain, before the pushed Celts increased their Celtic part in the mountainous refuges. The old genealogies of post-Cornovii elites (installed in more than a part of Britain, because maybe Cornovii accepted first to work for the Roman Empire: North Scotland, South-West Scotland, North-East Welsh borders) seem showing that the most of the Breton elites came from North-West Britain: Stratclud and Cumbria, after a southward crossing of the western and southwestern England. And more, we suppose that some Britton refugees took foot in Normandy even if less densely than in today Brittany. es, Aremorica extended from Western Brittany to Somme bay, between Picardy and Normandy.

rms2
11-05-2018, 12:39 PM
Huh? What makes you say Wales and Cornwall "were maybe less Celtic than other regions of non-Anglo-Saxon Britain"?

moesan
11-07-2018, 09:56 PM
Huh? What makes you say Wales and Cornwall "were maybe less Celtic than other regions of non-Anglo-Saxon Britain"?

I wrote 'maybe' so it proves I'm sure of nothing - but the classical description of Siluri tribe and common sense could push to conclude that some more ancient pops of Britain among them the neolithical ones had more chances to survive in western mountainous or hilly regions: so in southern Britain: Wales and Cornwall spite less sure (and in the Pennines, according to some old scholars); this is guess, spite not stupid - BBs, even if not well achieved Celts, had already wiped older pops to less profitable places, without slaughter them, and these older pop's have left traces in the Britain human composition.
As a whole, the most of pops introgressions in Britain since the metals seem being passed through SOuth, South-East and East, except some moves from Northern Ireland to Scotland.

ExoticButter
10-15-2019, 09:38 PM
Is Breton French ancestry?

jstephan
10-16-2019, 12:13 AM
Is Breton French ancestry?

I guess that question is some kind of joke but still I will try to give an answer. First, you would have to define French ancestry because, in some way, it doesn’t mean much, actual Bretons ancestors have been occupying the actual land of Brittany for over 15 centuries , so, even if their ancestors came from actual Great-Britain, I guess you could consider them being of French ancestry, and if you don’t then most French people wouldn’t deserve being of French ancestry because most of them have ancestors that landed the country way after the Bretons (Vikings, Franks, Burgonds…).

Tomenable
10-17-2019, 02:05 PM
In MyHeritage Bretons tend to score 80% British/Irish + 20% Spanish etc.

Tolan
10-17-2019, 07:07 PM
In MyHeritage Bretons tend to score 80% British/Irish + 20% Spanish etc.

myheritage is not a reference in this field...

Tomenable
10-17-2019, 11:12 PM
myheritage is not a reference in this field...

Ok but would you agree that massive Briton migration had a very significant impact on Armorica?

It even reached Iberia, as there is a region called Britonia there, also named after Insular Celts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

What we really need to determine how much of modern Breton DNA is truly recent influx from the British Isles, and how much is local but just happens to be similar to British/Irish people, are ancient DNA samples from France, including Iron Age and Roman Era Armorican samples:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png/800px-Britonia6hcentury.png

Tolan
10-18-2019, 04:28 AM
Ok but would you agree that massive Briton migration had a very significant impact on Armorica?

It even reached Iberia, as there is a region called Britonia there, also named after Insular Celts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

What we really need to determine how much of modern Breton DNA is truly recent influx from the British Isles, and how much is local but just happens to be similar to British/Irish people, are ancient DNA samples from France, including Iron Age and Roman Era Armorican samples:



I agree..
I meant that a lambda French gets 20% English or Irish on Myheritage, so really myheritage is not a reference for this area ..

Otherwise, I am convinced that the Armorican population was quite close to the population of the island of Britain.
The haplogroup L21, for example, had to be very present even before the arrival of the Bretons!

To be able to compare, it would take Armorican samples before the arrival of the Breton ...
We can try dreaming!

Trelvern
10-18-2019, 06:14 AM
In MyHeritage Bretons tend to score 80% British/Irish + 20% Spanish etc.

i am Breton (western part)
but MyHeritage gave me only 29.4 Irish,Scottish and Welsh 0 English (and 29.9 Scandinavian! Why? I don't know . Scandinavian=English? ; 26 Iberian; 0 French of course)
(LivingDNA 84.3 British and Irish,13 Iberian and 0 Scandinavian 0 French).

Tolan
10-18-2019, 07:23 AM
i am Breton (western part)
but MyHeritage gave me only 29.4 Irish,Scottish and Welsh 0 English (and 29.9 Scandinavian! Why? I don't know . Scandinavian=English? ; 26 Iberian; 0 French of course)
(LivingDNA 84.3 British and Irish,13 Iberian and 0 Scandinavian 0 French).

And for me: 43%English, 11%Irish, Scott, Welsh (54% British/Irish) ; Iberian:21% ; Italian:6%, and East-Europe:15%! and Ashkenaze:4%!

Tomenable
10-18-2019, 07:39 AM
i am Breton (western part)
but MyHeritage gave me only 29.4 Irish,Scottish and Welsh 0 English (and 29.9 Scandinavian! Why? I don't know . Scandinavian=English? ; 26 Iberian; 0 French of course)
(LivingDNA 84.3 British and Irish,13 Iberian and 0 Scandinavian 0 French).

And IIRC in Celtic vs. Germanic PCA or in Global25 you score very Celtic instead, even compared to other Bretons who don't score Scandinavian in MyHeritage?

Trelvern
10-18-2019, 08:51 AM
And IIRC in Celtic vs. Germanic PCA or in Global25 you score very Celtic instead, even compared to other Bretons who don't score Scandinavian in MyHeritage?

Yes very "Celtic" as long as it has a meaning.
Compared to other Breton I am in the pack and nothing more.
Many of them have tested 23 and me
Therefore comparisons are difficult