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Jarman
08-11-2012, 12:21 AM
I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
Thanks.

vineviz
08-11-2012, 09:43 AM
I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
Thanks.

Jarman,

These two SNP are not very thoroughly tested yet, so I'm not sure what the odds are for your Robins/Robinson.

We do have European mean positive for each of these (well, one or the other: no one is positive for both so far). Most men who are positive for L277 or L584 - though not all such men - seem to have very close Jewish, Assyrian, or Armenian matches, but men who are negative for both seem much less likely to have those ancestries.

So there may be some benefit to having Europeans test both markers, along with Z2103 and Z2105. Even negative results might be informative.

AJL
08-11-2012, 03:31 PM
Jarman:

How far back does the Scottish pedigree go? As someone with both Scottish and Jewish ancestry, I'll say that while Robinson is a very common Borders area surname, if the pedigree is short, it may be an anglicization of Rubens, Rubenstein, or a similar potentially Jewish name.

In Scotland, the name Robertson is very much more common. Robins also seems out of place there. So whether you do get an unexpected positive result or not, there may have been a slight name change.

Jarman
08-12-2012, 03:33 AM
Jarman:

How far back does the Scottish pedigree go? As someone with both Scottish and Jewish ancestry, I'll say that while Robinson is a very common Borders area surname, if the pedigree is short, it may be an anglicization of Rubens, Rubenstein, or a similar potentially Jewish name.

In Scotland, the name Robertson is very much more common. Robins also seems out of place there. So whether you do get an unexpected positive result or not, there may have been a slight name change.

Daniel Robinson (or Robeson) b. c1627 Scotland, d. c1714 New Jersey. The name was shortened to Robins in NJ - very well documented in deeds and land ownership. I don't know where in Scotland he was from - no useful DNA matches yet.

AJL
08-12-2012, 05:16 AM
Thanks -- with the Robeson form, I expect he may match some Robertsons.

Silesian
09-14-2012, 05:24 AM
There are 18 categories within the Jewish R1b project. Many of it's members would be considered neither L277 or L584-.

In fact 24 members are L277- and L584+.45475 from Lithuania is L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")--R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) You also have members who are L584- and L277+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

L277 has been found in Central Europe and as far away as East India.

L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans .

Joe B
05-17-2013, 06:39 AM
435

This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. A few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three with two from Aleppo likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.

Humanist
05-18-2013, 04:28 AM
435

This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. A few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three with two from Aleppo likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

Joe B
05-18-2013, 05:56 PM
438

This is a map of L227+ and L587+ distribution in the old world. The data comes from Mikes R1b Early Haplotypes file and a few more found in FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps, not every mark is exact.
The area around Lake Van and Lake Urmia is interesting. Within L584+ (n=28) and L277+ (n=11) a few groups are noted. The Armenian project and Assyrian project each have 10 L584+ markers on the map. The Jewish project has three and two possibly related kits from Aleppo are likely to be Syrian Sephardic. L277+ includes 2 from the Jewish project and 1 each for the R-Arabia, Armenian and Assyrian projects. Note that L277+ extends from Kolkata to The Hague.
Thanks for the thumbs up for the L227+ and L584+ distribution map. As you may know, I'm new to this and bound to make mistakes. Thus the two maps with two different n values for L584+. The correct map reads L227+ n=11 and L584+ n=28 and I have edited the qoute in this message to reflect that. The correct map is within the qoute too.
If someone wants to repost the map so that it is visible to non-members or for other reasons, feel free to. This map is public domain. Thanks, Joe

AJL
05-18-2013, 06:22 PM
Thanks, Joe. I will certainly send this map to my Syrian Sephardi L584 cousin.

Joe B
05-18-2013, 09:21 PM
Thanks, Joe. I will certainly send this map to my Syrian Sephardi L584 cousin.
The Sephardic Jewish history in Aleppo is just one of those facinating things one comes across while making a map. The connection was made because one of the kits belongs to a CHOUEKA Family Project at FTDNA. A google search gave me the "likely" connection. If this is wrong, please let me know so we can all learn.

Silesian
05-18-2013, 10:03 PM
The Sephardic Jewish history in Aleppo is just one of those facinating things one comes across while making a map. The connection was made because one of the kits belongs to a CHOUEKA Family Project at FTDNA. A google search gave me the "likely" connection. If this is wrong, please let me know so we can all learn.

The region has a fascinating history. Generally when Royalty convert so does general population.


Adiabene occupied a district in Assyria between the Upper Zab (Lycus) and the Lower Zab (Caprus), though Ammianus speaks of Nineveh, Ecbatana, and Gaugamela as also belonging to it.[7]


439


Helena of Adiabene (Hebrew: הלני המלכה‎) was queen of Adiabene and wife of Monobaz I. With her husband she was the mother of Izates II and Monobaz II. She died about 56 CE. Her name and the fact that she was her husband's sister [1] indicate a Hellenistic origin.[clarification needed if Hellenistic means Israeli and not Aramean descent] Helena became a convert to Judaism about the year 30 CE.

There is also another interesting development since making your map. It is very interesting the area that L277 and L584 are concentrated in.

AJL
05-18-2013, 10:51 PM
The Sephardic Jewish history in Aleppo is just one of those facinating things one comes across while making a map. The connection was made because one of the kits belongs to a CHOUEKA Family Project at FTDNA. A google search gave me the "likely" connection. If this is wrong, please let me know so we can all learn.

No, you're absolutely correct! Kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 are all R-L584 Syrian Sephardi.

Joe B
05-18-2013, 11:52 PM
The region has a fascinating history. Generally when Royalty convert so does general population.




439



There is also another interesting development since making your map. It is very interesting the area that L277 and L584 are concentrated in.

I'm all for new deveopments so let us know. Still trying to fiqure out the Helena of Adiabene family relationship. Thanks for putting some time frames to this. The two areas of anatolia concentration correspond with the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. A quick google search on that will give you the Garden of Eden. And I thought apples came from the Altai Mountains. On the map that you posted, the name Albania jumped out. Wonder if it has any relation to the current nation of Albania and the HT35 hot spot there?

Joe B
05-19-2013, 12:23 AM
No, you're absolutely correct! Kits 70052, 168729, 223365, and 227311 are all R-L584 Syrian Sephardi.
I was not aware that the second two had tested positive for L584. How cool is that.
What I find very revealing is the connection between the Sephardi Diaspora due to the Alhambra Decree of the Spanish Inquisition and Aleppo. That is circa 1492. So often we get caught up in what happened in the 2nd or 3rd millenium BCE, we forget about the last two thousand years or even the last one hundred years. This is especially true when we look snps such as L277 and L584.

AJL
05-19-2013, 12:28 AM
Joe -- I am not absolutely certain the last two have actually tested the SNP but they are part of the same project. I should see how far they are out from the first 2 STR-wise, but unless there are more than several mismatches, I think they all descend from the same line.

Joe B
05-19-2013, 01:22 AM
AJL,
First of all, thanks. After doulble checking the Iberian snp page, turns out 168729 may be snpless too. So that leaves 70052 as the only one that we know for sure tested L584+.
I'll defer to you on the strs. Some differences with DYS390=23,24 and Y-GATA-H4=11,12, but it would be nice to learn if that is important. This group plus the Grant and Robins projects gives us three surnames in the L23/L150 world, hopefully more are out there. In an ideal world replicable snp results in each of these surname projects would add more validity to the science. Hopefully L277 and L584 will help us figure out this L23/L150 story.

Joe B
05-19-2013, 04:16 AM
As you know autosomal of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews show a definite African heritage component. Jewish language is also considered a Afro-Asiatic language.
No, I don't know. I'm really new to this and will mostly follow along and learn at this point.
What role would Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the time, played in unifying this area? To the point of breaking loose from endogomy?

Joe B
05-19-2013, 04:33 AM
My only point about bringing up Koine Greek is it was one of the few written languages of that place and time. A lingua franca.

Joe B
05-19-2013, 08:20 PM
I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
Thanks.
I came across this on a world families forum.
"Jarman has died, if he's the same guy I think he is that was doing the Robbins DNA research. I'm trying to carry this on in his absence, without his expertise.
Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:21:12 PM "
I hope and pray this is not true but the source seems very credible.
Since Jarman started this thread, lets try to answer his questions.
So far L277 and L584 seem to be from eastern anatolia. We need more data to know for sure.
It is very reasonable to test for L277 and L584. Patterns are starting to show. We lack enough hard data to make any firm conclusions. So the more L23/L150 folks that test for L277 and L584 the better.440

Mikewww
05-19-2013, 09:16 PM
Not just any men no. Descendants of Aaron and by extension Abraham yes.Through only 1 y line. That is why there is an entire subject dedicated to who that is
...
On one hand you have all male descendants of Aaron and Abraham and on the other hand all male descendants of other clans.
The termGentile (from Latin gentilis, by the French "gentil", female: "gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe)
...
For example you belong to paternal R1a this thread is about R1b-Z2105{Gentile } tribe
...
Since many of these haplogroups, i.e. R1b-L23*/Z2103/Z2105, are far older than the age of the Jewish tribes as we know of them historically, these tribes could have had several different haplogroups.

This begs the question about how do you define who is Jewish and who is not. That kind of broad topic is off-topic for this category. Perhaps you might want to start a thread on that in the General DNA category, but let's not try to define that here.

Silesian
05-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Since many of these haplogroups, i.e. R1b-L23*/Z2103/Z2105, are far older than the age of the Jewish tribes as we know of them historically, these tribes could have had several different haplogroups.

Yes perhaps even several "unrelated" halplogroups with different origins. This begs the question, what geographical region do L277+ and L584+ originate?

Joe B
05-19-2013, 11:23 PM
This begs the question, what geographical region do L277+ and L584+ originate?
This may be a silly question. Is there a way for MJost or somebody to measure the genetic distance and age between Z2103+ L277- L584- vs. L277+ and L584+?

Bronco480
05-20-2013, 12:46 AM
In response to Jarman's post, I know that my Robins line is definitely not related to either of these mutations that he's enquiring about. M-269 L49+ is as far as I can go within the R1b1a2a, that I know of.

And not either L277 or L584 positive. Z2105, though , whatever that is.

Humanist
05-20-2013, 01:28 AM
Carriers of L277+ and L584+ are not very Afro-Asiaticif they have no ancient African genes in their make up, that is no autosomal genes from Africa or are not physically found in Africa like J-P58. which is generally associated with Afro-Semitic languages in the South west Asia and Africa.

Afro-Asiatic is a term coined in the very recent past. People can speak an "Afro-Asiatic" language, despite an absence of detectable "African" ancestry. This does not necessarily disassociate them from their particular "Afro-Asiatic" language. The below Neo-Assyrian men spoke an "Afro-Asiatic" language, Akkadian. When I look at them, "African" does not exactly come to mind. That said, there is nothing wrong with Africans, or African ancestry. But, I just wanted to make the point that we should not get too caught up with labels. Especially when such labels are very recent creations.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/assyrians_scribe.jpg

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/assyrians_2.jpg

razyn
05-20-2013, 01:39 AM
There's a phylogenetic tree chart here (scroll to the bottom) with the SNPs that are the subject of this thread on the right. And both U106 and P312 (and all their descendants) on the left -- L11 having been a separate lineage since pretty long ago. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/

I tried to start a discussion of this a few days ago on the R1b-P312 Yahoo group, but didn't make much of a wave.

Silesian
05-20-2013, 02:37 AM
But, I just wanted to make the point that we should not get too caught up with labels. Especially when such labels are very recent creations.

Thank you for all your kind words.

Joe B
05-20-2013, 03:40 AM
In response to Jarman's post, I know that my Robins line is definitely not related to either of these mutations that he's enquiring about. M-269 L49+ is as far as I can go within the R1b1a2a, that I know of.

And not either L277 or L584 positive. Z2105, though , whatever that is.
Bronco480,
Your Robbins DNA Project deserves a good look by people that have studied L23/L150 and know what they are talking about. I'm not that person but want to say why it may be important for them to take a look.

First of all, the Robins group has 34 members that are proven and likely descendants of Daniel Robins, c1627-c1714 of Scotland and New Jersey. At least one has tested L23+, Z2105+ and L584-. 34 is a huge number for our haplogroup. As our phylogenetic tree stand right now, I "think" your family haplogroup is defined by Z2103+/Z2105+, L277-, L584-. Sometimes negative snps are just as important as positive snps for proper placement on the phylogenetic tree. Having a couple of kits completely tested saves a lot of money for your project members, I would think.

Second, your group has at least three very unique str values. YCAII=18-23, DYS640=12 and of course DYS425=null are unique values that may tie your project to others, within this haplogroup. For example, I share the YCAII=18-23 and DYS640=12 str values.

Third, this has got to be of value with some of the theories of the Romans using troops from Anatolia. Your members should be very interested in the deep ancestry snps can reveal. Testing for L277 and L584 are part of the process, even if the results are negative.

Others who know this stuff, please way in.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/robins/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Mikewww
06-01-2013, 01:20 AM
What is the status of actual SNP testing of L584, L277.1 and L150.2 (the back mutation) for Z2103/Z2105 people?

Where can we find Z2103+/Z2105+ L584- L277.1- L150.2- (normal L150+) people?

Rathna
06-01-2013, 04:24 AM
What is the status of actual SNP testing of L584, L277.1 and L150.2 (the back mutation) for Z2103/Z2105 people?

Where can we find Z2103+/Z2105+ L584- L277.1- L150.2- (normal L150+) people?

I am certainly R-Z2105+ L277- L584- and so the pretty totality of Italians (and Western Europeans), except those of Arbereshe origin like Ciulla and Varipapa (Z2110+). But about R-L150.2+ the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” made a great confusion and I have written a lot about it on Worldfamilies.

Joe B
06-02-2013, 07:22 PM
What is the status of actual SNP testing of L584, L277.1 and L150.2 (the back mutation) for Z2103/Z2105 people?

Where can we find Z2103+/Z2105+ L584- L277.1- L150.2- (normal L150+) people?

L150, L584, L277, Z2103 and Z2105 are all in the advanced FTDNA SNP menu. For myself, L584 results took six weeks while L277 ($49) results were within three weeks. I'm awaiting Z2103, due on the 3rd, and Z2105 in another batch that is due by the 24th. Tomcat indicated about the same time frame for his testing this year on another thread.

Another way of evaluating the status of L150+, L584, L277, Z2103 and Z2105 testing is by looking at projects and the lack of snp testing. Useful information is not there because kits are not testing for downstream snps. Many are just languishing in surname and geographic projects.

Looking at “L23*” surnames is quite telling. Out of around 200 plus likely Z2103+/Z2105+ kits in the Bennett, Blair, Robins, Robinson, Mercer, Seymour, Smith and Watts surnames, only Mercer 217513, Seymour 108347, and Robinson 16910 have tested both L277 and L584.

Geographically, as the map that I posted earlier in this thread indicated, L277 and especially L584 leans towards Eastern Europe, Asia Minor and Southwest Asia. However, if kits from Western Europe do not test for L584, L277, Z2103 and Z2105, how will we really know? Scientific methodology demands more testing for these snps across a wider geographic spectrum. It helps everyone be more credible.

Regarding the L150.2! mutation, the Seymour Project (http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/seymour/) may be useful in validating L23+, L150- results. Seymour 89053 has only tested to M269+ and if further tested could be compared to Seymour L150.2! 108347.

One idea that may help encourage more testing is to have a Z2103+/Z2105+ L584- L277.1- L150.1 group in the R1b Gateway and the Ht35/R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) projects. I say that not knowing how difficult that might be.


P.S. Since I’m L150+, it is doubtful that “normal” L150+ individuals exist.:biggrin1:

seferhabahir
06-03-2013, 04:50 AM
:beerchug:
...Since I’m L150+, it is doubtful that “normal” L150+ individuals exist.:biggrin1:

I'm not sure this is the right thread, but I thought I would post here since you all are reading it. Kit 126775 (in both the ht35 and the Jewish R1b projects) came back with Geno 2.0 results as L23- L150+ PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ (same as my cousin kit N114224, for some reason misplaced in the ht35 project as L23+). Kit 126775 is already a GD of 7 from my cousin at only 37 markers. With the new loosened requirements, a GD of 7 at 67 would be enough for ISOGG tree modifications.

I believe this pretty clearly indicates a "peer" group to L23 under L150.1 identified by PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+. It is probable that the fairly large Jewish M269xL23 cluster would be in this new peer group and that L150.1 (problematic as it is for keeping around) should really be above L23 in the ISOGG tree. Someone asked Thomas Krahn to see about developing primers for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 so we can have other L23- kits test for them. I think there ARE normal L150+ people - just that some of them are L23- and some of them are L23+. :P

Rathna
06-03-2013, 07:18 AM
I'm not sure this is the right thread, but I thought I would post here since you all are reading it. Kit 126775 (in both the ht35 and the Jewish R1b projects) came back with Geno 2.0 results as L23- L150+ PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+ (same as my cousin kit N114224, for some reason misplaced in the ht35 project as L23+). Kit 126775 is already a GD of 7 from my cousin at only 37 markers. With the new loosened requirements, a GD of 7 at 67 would be enough for ISOGG tree modifications.

I believe this pretty clearly indicates a "peer" group to L23 under L150.1 identified by PF7558+ PF7562+ PF7563+. It is probable that the fairly large Jewish M269xL23 cluster would be in this new peer group and that L150.1 (problematic as it is for keeping around) should really be above L23 in the ISOGG tree. Someone asked Thomas Krahn to see about developing primers for PF7558, PF7562, and PF7563 so we can have other L23- kits test for them. I think there ARE normal L150+ people - just that some of them are L23- and some of them are L23+. :P

I have written a lot about this above all on Worldfamilies. I am going to reconsider the thing, but my idea is that there have been two mutations in L150: one amongst the R-M269 (all the Jewish cluster and now also the Albanian Gashi, who, having these three SNPs found in Sardinia, are probably of Italian origin or nearby), and the other in some people L23+ like Romitti and Seymour. About this the moderators of the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” are doing a great confusion, but probably this will be the truth.
I am going to exam again these Jewish clusters and their 7 mutations out of 37 markers, and I’ll write something next.

Rathna
06-03-2013, 07:33 AM
I have written a lot about this above all on Worldfamilies. I am going to reconsider the thing, but my idea is that there have been two mutations in L150: one amongst the R-M269 (all the Jewish cluster and now also the Albanian Gashi, who, having these three SNPs found in Sardinia, are probably of Italian origin or nearby), and the other in some people L23+ like Romitti and Seymour. About this the moderators of the “ht 35 FTDNA Project” are doing a great confusion, but probably this will be the truth.
I am going to exam again these Jewish clusters and their 7 mutations out of 37 markers, and I’ll write something next.


126775 Moishe Bardiga, b. abt 1740 Berestechko, Ukraine Ukraine R1b1a2a1
12 24 14 10 11-14 11 12 12 14 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15-15-16-16 11 10 19-23 17 16 17 17 38-38 12 12

N114224 Aleksandr Lifschitz, b. 1840, Russian Empire Belarus R1b1a2a1
12 24 14 10 11-13 11 12 12 13 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-16 11 9 19-23 17 16 18 17 37-38 12 12

These clusters belong to the same hg. R-M269* with the mutation in L150, independent from that happened in a few L23 (so far only Romitti and Seymour). They have a recent origin, and I think from an introgression into the Jewish pool from Europe. If the link with Gashi will be demonstrated by the presence of these three PF SNPs, probably from the Balkans.

Rathna
06-03-2013, 07:38 AM
As I predicted so long, all the Jews in the R-M269 group will have these mutations: after Fabrikant we have had Bardiga and you will see that all the others will be.
To try to demonstrate that this mutation L150 happened in a Jewish pool which would be the ancestor of all the L23 is a game lost in the start: these R-M269 lack the mutation L23 and L49 and by a genetic point of view would be unfit to think this.

seferhabahir
06-03-2013, 03:25 PM
To try to demonstrate that this mutation L150 happened in a Jewish pool which would be the ancestor of all the L23 is a game lost in the start and ridiculous: these R-M269 lack the mutation L23 and L49 and by a genetic point of view is just ridiculous to think this.

Nobody is arguing for this here, certainly not me. Discussion probably belongs in R1b Early Branching Phylogeny (SNP based family tree) thread anyway.

Silesian
06-03-2013, 04:05 PM
As I predicted so long, all the Jews in the R-M269 group will have these mutations: after Fabrikant we have had Bardiga and you will see that all the others will be.
To try to demonstrate that this mutation L150 happened in a Jewish pool which would be the ancestor of all the L23 is a game lost in the start and ridiculous: these R-M269 lack the mutation L23 and L49 and by a genetic point of view is just ridiculous to think this.

My shared samples set on [email protected] R1b1b2a includes 25 members from Western/Eastern Europe , Anatolia,Caucasus, in other words a very diverse area with differing National and religious backgrounds. Since [email protected] does not test for L277 and L584 only L23 and L49, we do not know the specific individual breakdown. However they do have a very large Ashkenazi reference sample, comprising of 1015N to compare shared autosomal with; in the Ancestral Composition and Ancestry section. I have calculated some Ashkenazi scores with my R1b1b2a list here are the results:
23/25 score an average of [I]0.0695+% Ashkenazi
2/25 score an average of 62.9+% Ashkenazi One from Italy and one from Caucasus.

The majority of samples of R1b1b2a from Europe and Caucasus on my list come in as 0% Ashkenazi.

Rathna
06-03-2013, 04:18 PM
Since [email protected] does not test for L277 and L584

23andMe does test for L277 and L584. I have my results from there. Look at the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet".
L584 was discovered when I invited a friend of mine, the Iranian Chitsaz, to send his test to Adriano.

Silesian
06-03-2013, 04:23 PM
23andMe does test for L277 and L584. I have my results from there. Look at the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet".
L584 was discovered when I invited a friend of mine, the Iranian Chitsaz, to send his test to Adriano.

What is the designation of R1b1b2a list ? Only L23+/L49+ my list is predominantly 0% Ashkenazi except for 2 samples?

Mikewww
06-03-2013, 04:30 PM
As I predicted so long, all the Jews in the R-M269 group will have these mutations: after Fabrikant we have had Bardiga and you will see that all the others will be.
To try to demonstrate that this mutation L150 happened in a Jewish pool which would be the ancestor of all the L23 is a game lost in the start and ridiculous: these R-M269 lack the mutation L23 and L49 and by a genetic point of view is just ridiculous to think this.

[[[ Mikewww/Moderator on 6/3/2013: Rathna, you may be right and I certainly don't understand all of these relationships but please be careful about inflamatory ("ridiculous") language that is directed at another posting when their posting appears to be sincere.]]]

Rathna
06-03-2013, 04:44 PM
[[[ Mikewww/Moderator on 6/3/2013: Rathna, you may be right and I certainly don't understand all of these relationships but please be careful about inflamatory ("ridiculous") language that is directed at another posting when their posting appears to be sincere.]]]

I apologize and I'll correct that adjective. I am a friend of seferhabahir and I have always said that I consider him one of the most open minds of the forums. Perhaps you will admit that all what is happening about this matter (and I have spoken a lot about) doesn't demonstrate the same spirit.

Joe B
07-26-2013, 07:08 AM
575
Cleaned up the L277+ and L584+ Distribution Map by removing "predicted" L277+ and L584+ kits. This data comes from FTDNA projects. It is only meant to give a general idea of the distribution of these snps and not every mark is exact. The much discussed kit #45475 has been moved to a village near Worms from Lithuania. Not a big deal as there was a lot of movement between the Worms, Frankfurt gebiet and the Pale.
Project managers, too many predicted L277+ and L584+ kits. Sometimes only one kit is positive and the rest are predicted. No snp replication equals speculation.

Joe B
10-11-2013, 04:10 AM
On another forum (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=1202) eastara communicated to Gioiello/Rathna/Maliclavelli that we have a new L277+ from Bulgaria. Thanks Rathna.
Kits N81217 Karatepeoglu of Bulgaria and 177152 Burkholder of Switzerland are L277+ and have tested Geno2.0. Burkholder has also tested Z2103+ and Z2105+ to boot. According to Chris Morley's Y-SNP Subclade Predictor, L478 and PF6404 would be the terminal subclades were it not for the Z2103+, Z2105+ and L277+ results. Does L150>L478>PF6404>Z2103>Z2105>L277 make sense and does that mean anything developing the phylogenetic tree?

Kit 45475 Silver of Germany is L584+ and has tested Geno2.0 According to the Morley Y-SNP Predictor, CTS1848, PF3449 and PF7580 would be the terminal snps if not for the L584+ result. Hopefully we will get somebody L584+ (L943, L944, L945, L946) to test Geno2.0 or one of the other broad-spectrum test.

Rathna
10-11-2013, 08:14 AM
On another forum (http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=1202) eastara communicated to Gioiello/Rathna/Maliclavelli that we have a new L277+ from Bulgaria. Thanks Rathna.
Kits N81217 Karatepeoglu of Bulgaria and 177152 Burkholder of Switzerland are L277+ and have tested Geno2.0. Burkholder has also tested Z2103+ and Z2105+ to boot. According to Chris Morley's Y-SNP Subclade Predictor, L478 and PF6404 would be the terminal subclades were it not for the Z2103+, Z2105+ and L277+ results. Does L150>L478>PF6404>Z2103>Z2105>L277 make sense and does that mean anything developing the phylogenetic tree?

Kit 45475 Silver of Germany is L584+ and has tested Geno2.0 According to the Morley Y-SNP Predictor, CTS1848, PF3449 and PF7580 would be the terminal snps if not for the L584+ result. Hopefully we will get somebody L584+ (L943, L944, L945, L946) will test Geno2.0 or one of the other broad-spectrum test.



!!!!1R1b1a2a L23/PF6534/S141 4 [1727/1732], L49/S34973 [684/685]
1844 !!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1 L4784 [918/924], PF640493 [923/924]

L478 and PF6404 should be the brother SNPs of R-L23/Z2103/Z2105* (our cluster), the ancestor of R-L51 and subclades. We should see if these samples (264832 N112959 N113118 N114022 N18690 N53795 N79525 N81217 N9475) are R-L478/PF6404* or not.

As to R-L584 I have raised many times and on many fora the question to investigate if PF7580 could be the first SNP of the series and, as it has been found so far in the Italian Carnevali and in one Rumanian, it could be at the origin of this Middle Eastern subclade (Silver and two Middle Easterner individuals have also other mutations but they all belong to the R-L584+ cluster).
In this case it would be demonstrated that the origin of R-L23* is in Italy or at least in the Balkans and not in Middle East.

It seems that Karatepeoglu is an outlier in Bulgaria. The other Bulgarians, for what Eastara says, aren't R-L277+, but R-Z2103/Z2105* like us, and this seems to happen in all Europe, Western and Eastern.

R.Rocca
10-11-2013, 03:24 PM
!!!!1R1b1a2a L23/PF6534/S141 4 [1727/1732], L49/S34973 [684/685]
1844 !!!!!!!1R1b1a2a–1 L4784 [918/924], PF640493 [923/924]

L478 and PF6404 should be the brother SNPs of R-L23/Z2103/Z2105* (our cluster), the ancestor of R-L51 and subclades. We should see if these samples (264832 N112959 N113118 N114022 N18690 N53795 N79525 N81217 N9475) are R-L478/PF6404* or not.

As to R-L584 I have raised many times and on many fora the question to investigate if PF7580 could be the first SNP of the series and, as it has been found so far in the Italian Carnevali and in one Rumanian, it could be at the origin of this Middle Eastern subclade (Silver and two Middle Easterner individuals have also other mutations but they all belong to the R-L584+ cluster).
In this case it would be demonstrated that the origin of R-L23* is in Italy or at least in the Balkans and not in Middle East.

It seems that Karatepeoglu is an outlier in Bulgaria. The other Bulgarians, for what Eastara says, aren't R-L277+, but R-Z2103/Z2105* like us, and this seems to happen in all Europe, Western and Eastern.

I'm not sure I understand...if L478/PF6404 does indeed form a brother clade to Z2103/Z2105, wouldn't it also be a brother clade to L51 and not its ancestor? Or are you saying that L478/PF6404 are derived in all L51 but not Z2103/Z2105, thus making it between L23(xZ2103/Z2105) and L51?

Rathna
10-11-2013, 04:56 PM
I'm not sure I understand...if L478/PF6404 does indeed form a brother clade to Z2103/Z2105, wouldn't it also be a brother clade to L51 and not its ancestor? Or are you saying that L478/PF6404 are derived in all L51 but not Z2103/Z2105, thus making it between L23(xZ2103/Z2105) and L51?

Richard, I should have corrected my statement, in fact I wrote it because, by memory, I thought that R-Z2103/Z2105 and R-L478/PF6404 were “brother clades” (and the Morley’s tree isn’t always clear actually), but later I saw that they are the same clade, i.e. R-Z2103/Z2105 is also L478/PF6404, only that Morley puts some samples as they were R-L478/PF6404*, for this I asked that it were verified if they were so (and probably they aren’t so: Carnevali should be put with the R-PF7580 etc.). But I lost my mother on 29 september and I am almost out of me.

Actually if there were some R-L478/PF6404*, they would be the closest to R-L51 and they could say something more about its origin, but probably they aren’t, and all these samples are a paragroup, but within it probably my R-Z2103/Z2105* is the ancestor of L277, L584, L150- and all the others, as I have said in my post.

Of course I am waiting for my Chromo2, which could say something new about that, but that R-L23* probably was born in Europe and not in Middle East for me is very likely as it is very likely for me that R1b1* is European in its origin, and the Italian samples are demonstrating this more and more.

Rathna
10-11-2013, 05:20 PM
For more clarification, this is the tree:

R-L478/PF6404

|
-------------------------------------------
R-Z2103/Z2105..................................R-L51

R.Rocca
10-11-2013, 05:21 PM
Richard, I should have corrected my statement, in fact I wrote it because, by memory, I thought that R-Z2103/Z2105 and R-L478/PF6404 were “brother clades” (and the Morley’s tree isn’t always clear actually), but later I saw that they are the same clade, i.e. R-Z2103/Z2105 is also L478/PF6404, only that Morley puts some samples as they were R-L478/PF6404*, for this I asked that it were verified if they were so (and probably they aren’t so: Carnevali should be put with the R-PF7580 etc.). But I lost my mother on 29 september and I am almost out of me.

Actually if there were some R-L478/PF6404*, they would be the closest to R-L51 and they could say something more about its origin, but probably they aren’t, and all these samples are a paragroup, but within it probably my R-Z2103/Z2105* is the ancestor of L277, L584, L150- and all the others, as I have said in my post.

Of course I am waiting for my Chromo2, which could say something new about that, but that R-L23* probably was born in Europe and not in Middle East for me is very likely as it is very likely for me that R1b1* is European in its origin, and the Italian samples are demonstrating this more and more.

Sorry to hear of your loss Gioiello.

[[[ EDIT/INSERTION by Mikewww: Yes, Gioiello. We all mourn your loss. I rue the day I will see the same for my own mother. ]]]

Humanist
10-11-2013, 05:31 PM
In this case it would be demonstrated that the origin of R-L23* is in Italy or at least in the Balkans and not in Middle East.

It is certainly possible that it is Balkans in origin. I have favored something in the neighborhood of W. Anatolia for a while now. Speaking of Balkans, on a somewhat related note, I would like to get your opinion on the possible impact of Magna Graecia on Italy and Sicily.

Wikipedia


Magna Graecia (Latin meaning "Great Greece", Greek: Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς, Megálē Hellás) is the name of the coastal areas of Southern Italy on the Tarentine Gulf that were extensively colonized by Greek settlers; particularly the Achaean colonies of Tarentum, Croton, and Sybaris, but also, more loosely, the cities of Cumae and Neapolis to the north.[1] The colonists, who began arriving in the 8th century BC, brought with them their Hellenic civilization, which was to leave a lasting imprint in Italy, particularly on the culture of ancient Rome.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/magna_gr.jpg


Cities of Magna Graecia and other Greek colonies in Italy (in red)

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/colonie_greche.jpg


Also, I never realized (or perhaps appreciated that) the Phoenicians had settlements on Sardinia.


From the 8th century BC, Phoenicians founded several cities and strongholds on south west of Sardinia; Tharros, Bithia, Sulcis, Nora and Karalis (Cagliari). The Phoenicians came originally from what is now Lebanon and founded a vast trading network in the Mediterranean. They settled along the south western coasts. Sardinia had a special position because it was central in the Western Mediterranean between Carthage, Spain, the Rhone river and the Etruscan civilization area. The mining area around Iglesias was important for the metals lead and zinc. The cities were founded on strategic points, often peninsulas or islands near estuaries, easy to defend and natural harbours. After the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians took over control in that part of the Mediterranean, around 550 BC. They expanded their influence to the eastern and southern coast from Bosa to Karalis, consolidating a large number of Phoenician colonies all over the western Mediterranean under one empire for the first time. The cities were administered by plenipotentiaries called Sufetes, which stressed the growing of grain and cereals.

Humanist
10-11-2013, 05:38 PM
But I lost my mother on 29 september and I am almost out of me.

Very sorry to hear about your loss, Rathna. My condolences to you and yours.

Silesian
10-11-2013, 05:49 PM
Condolences to you and your family.

Joe B
10-11-2013, 05:56 PM
It seems that Karatepeoglu is an outlier in Bulgaria. The other Bulgarians, for what Eastara says, aren't R-L277+, but R-Z2103/Z2105* like us, and this seems to happen in all Europe, Western and Eastern.
I think it's safe to say L277+ is an outlier wherever it's been found so far. The exception would be the Burkholder surname project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Burkholder/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) where we may find a few more.
The eight L277+ kits are sorted using the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAIIb/YCAIIa

234905 Vinogradov/Ivanov Russian Federation L277+
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-19 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12
N81217 Karatepeoglu Bulgaria L277+, Geno2.0
12 23 14 11 10-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 15-15-16-16 10 12 19-23 14 16 16 18 37-38 12 12
202270 Altoogi Iraq L277+
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28
195191 Ghosh India L277+
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 28 14-15-16-18 10 11 19-22 14 16 19 16 38-38 11 12
N97723 Lakkis Lebanon L277+
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 35-36 12 12
95875 Stasi Italy L277+
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12
159189 Robert France L277+
12 24 15 10 11-16 12 12 12 13 14 28 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 14 16 18 18 37-39 12 12
177152 Burkholder Switzerland L277+, Geno2.0
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 14-15-16-19 11 12 19-22 15 16 17 17 35-38 12 12

Speculating and hoping not to offend.
Robert (Huguenot Project) and Burkholder (Anabaptist Project) may have a shared history.
Ghosh of Kolkata could have historical connections to the Bagdad Jews of Kolkata or the Armenian and Greek communities there. Turns out Kolkata has quite the immigrant history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_communities_in_Kolkata).
What is that status with L277 and 23andme? Read about some concern regarding the reliability of the 23andme L277 test results a while back.
It's hard to see anything from just eight kits so we are lucky to have two that tested Geno2.0.

*Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B, Parolo S, Al-Zahery N, et al. (2012) Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the YChromosome
Variation of Modern Iranians. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0041252

Joe B
10-11-2013, 06:05 PM
But I lost my mother on 29 september and I am almost out of me.

Gioiello, So sorry to hear about your loss. I lost my mother last January and it is tough. One of the last things mom found out was her/my maternal side goes back to Asti, Italy. I hope your mother had one last great discovery in her life. Do your mother proud. Joe

Rathna
10-11-2013, 07:30 PM
I thank you all for your sincere condolences and of course in this moment I don't want to polemize with AJL, above all when it seems very likely that at least by the maternal side Ashkenazim are very close to me (but my idea is that also their R1b1, R-M269, R-L23 etc have the same origin). To Joe B I say that that K1a1b1e with the mutation in 11204 of the last paper of Costa et al., A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages, p. 3, is that of my mother and me, and that at its right with the mutation in 8291 and 15047 is a Tuscan of the 1KGP. These haplotypes are probably in Tuscany from 6000 years and perhaps from 12000.
My mother was in her 90th but the life, even though long, is always too short for our desires.
That she and all the others of whichever nations rest in peace.

seferhabahir
10-12-2013, 12:33 AM
I thank you all for your sincere condolences

My sympathies as well, Gioiello...

AJL
10-12-2013, 12:38 AM
Sorry to hear about your mother's passing, Rathna.

Humanist
10-12-2013, 02:03 AM
I think it's safe to say L277+ is an outlier wherever it's been found so far. The exception would be the Burkholder surname project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Burkholder/default.aspx?section=ycolorized) where we may find a few more.
The eight L277+ kits are sorted using the 10 str loci that *Grugni et al. used in their Iranian Y-DNA study.
DYS19>DYS388>DYS389I/II>DYS390>DYS391>DYS392>DYS393>DYS439>DYS460>YCAIIb/YCAIIa

234905 Vinogradov/Ivanov Russian Federation L277+
12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-16-19 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 17 36-37 12 12
N81217 Karatepeoglu Bulgaria L277+, Geno2.0
12 23 14 11 10-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 15-15-16-16 10 12 19-23 14 16 16 18 37-38 12 12
202270 Altoogi Iraq L277+
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28
195191 Ghosh India L277+
12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 28 14-15-16-18 10 11 19-22 14 16 19 16 38-38 11 12
N97723 Lakkis Lebanon L277+
12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 16 16 17 19 35-36 12 12
95875 Stasi Italy L277+
12 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 14 14 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-18 11 12 19-23 15 16 19 17 35-37 12 12
159189 Robert France L277+
12 24 15 10 11-16 12 12 12 13 14 28 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 14 16 18 18 37-39 12 12
177152 Burkholder Switzerland L277+, Geno2.0
13 24 15 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 14-15-16-19 11 12 19-22 15 16 17 17 35-38 12 12

Hi Joe. Thanks for the info. There is also the Assyrian from 23andMe, Mezdo (213878).

12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 16 35-37 12 12


EDIT

Ran the data through SplitsTree, for the L277 men tested through 67 markers:

ARM1 -- Armenian
ITA1 -- Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy
RUS1 -- Grigoriy Ivanov (1935-1996), Pskovskaya region, RU
JSH1 -- Mordechai born ca. 1810, Poland or Lithuania
LEB1 -- I Lakkis, c1850-1920
FRA1 -- Francois ROBERT 1606-bef.1645, Netherlands
ASY1 -- Mezdo, Assyrian
SWI1 -- Ulrich Burkholder, b1710


http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/l277_67_convex.jpg

Joe B
10-12-2013, 03:22 AM
There is also the Assyrian from 23andMe, Mezdo (213878).

12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 16 35-37 12 12

Hey Humanist,
Thanks for the information on Mezdo. I will move him from predicted to 23andme comfirmed. Seemed strange not to have a L277+ in Anatolia. Do you happen to know Mezdo's ancestral area in Turkey?

Joe B
10-12-2013, 03:32 AM
Ran the data through SplitsTree, for the L277 men tested through 67 markers:

ARM1 -- Armenian
ITA1 -- Pietro Stasi, b 1854, Potenza, Italy
RUS1 -- Grigoriy Ivanov (1935-1996), Pskovskaya region, RU
JSH1 -- Mordechai born ca. 1810, Poland or Lithuania
LEB1 -- I Lakkis, c1850-1920
FRA1 -- Francois ROBERT 1606-bef.1645, Netherlands
ASY1 -- Mezdo, Assyrian
SWI1 -- Ulrich Burkholder, b1710


http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/l277_67_convex.jpg
Humanist,
Please help me and maybe others know what SplitsTree is showing us. Is that showing the Lebanese, Swiss and Italian on the same predicted phylogenetic branch?

Humanist
10-12-2013, 03:41 AM
Hey Humanist,
Thanks for the information on Mezdo. I will move him from predicted to 23andme comfirmed. Seemed strange not to have a L277+ in Anatolia. Do you happen to know Mezdo's ancestral area in Turkey?

My pleasure, Joe.

Yes. He is a Tyari Assyrian, from SE Turkey, near the modern Turkey/Iraq border. I have him grouped with another Assyrian man, Sada, in the Assyrian Project. But, that is just speculative, based on some similarities in the STR data, and the fact that Sada has his origin in Barwar, N Iraq. The Sureth dialects of Tyari SE Turkey and Barwar N Iraq are closely related.

Some misc. notes about the Tyari Assyrians, from Wikipedia, if interested:

[T]he Assyrians of Ţyāré were renowned even amongst neighboring Kurds and Armenians for their yogurt, cheese and other dairy products mostly made from sheep or goat's milk. They were also famous for their textiles, which again were spun and woven from sheep's wool. They also made woolen felt for their characteristic pointed caps, and felt was also used for bedding.

....

About the national dress worn by the Ţyāré men in the Bakuba camp Brigadier-Gen Austin wrote; "Fine upstanding fellows they are, ...their legs, encased in long loose baggy trousers of a greyish hue originally, but so patched all over with bits of blue, red, green and other colors that their pants are veritable patch work. A broad cloth, "Kammar band," or waist band, is folded several times round the trunk of the body, and a short cut-away jacket of amazing colors, worn over a thin cotton variegated shirt. The head-dress consists of conical felt cap...."[6]

"There are 115 guests today. Among them are a number of Tyari men, whose wild looks, combined with the splendour of their dress and arms, are of great interest. Their jackets are one mass of gold embroidery, their shirts, with hanging sleeves, are striped satin; their trousers, of sailor cut, are silk, made from the cocoons of their own silkworms, woven with broad crimson stripes on a white ground, on which is a zigzag pattern; and their handsome jackboots are of crimson leather. With their white or red peaked felt hats and twisted silk pagris or head-cloths, their rich girdles, jewelled daggers, and inlaid pistols, they are very imposing." [7]

Humanist
10-12-2013, 05:00 PM
Yes. He is a Tyari Assyrian, from SE Turkey, near the modern Turkey/Iraq border. I have him grouped with another Assyrian man, Sada, in the Assyrian Project. But, that is just speculative, based on some similarities in the STR data, and the fact that Sada has his origin in Barwar, N Iraq. The Sureth dialects of Tyari SE Turkey and Barwar N Iraq are closely related.

A comparison of Mezdo (ASY01) and Sada's (ASY02) haplotypes, with the R-M269 men from the below Roy King study, based on a number of overlapping STRs:

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69)
King et al.

BMC Evolutionary Biology 2011, 11:69

The data, including the two Assyrians:


XXXXX 393 390 394 391 385 426 388 439 389I 392 389B 458 459 455 454 447 437 448 449 464 460 H4 YCA 456 442 438 444 446
ASY01 12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 14
ASY02 12 23 12 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF09 13 24 14 10 12-14 12 12 10 13 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF11 12 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 15 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15-15-16-19 10 12 19-22 16 16 12 12 13
SMF18 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 9-10 12 11 25 15 20 30 14-14-15-18 11 13 19-23 15 18 12 12 14
SMF26 13 24 14 12 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-16-16-16 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 11 15
SMF29 13 24 15 12 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-22 15 17 12 12 13
SMF31 12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 15 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 14 19-23 15 17 12 12 13
SMF36 13 25 14 12 12-14 12 12 11 14 12 18 18 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 12 11 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF40 13 24 15 10 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 17 18 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 16-16-16-16 11 12 19-23 17 17 12 13 13
SMF41 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 12 19-23 14 17 12 12 15
SMF46 13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF50 13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF51 12 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 17 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-14-16-17 11 13 19-23 15 16 12 12 14
SMF57 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-18 12 12 19-23 15 16 12 12 15
SMF59 13 24 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF63 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 11 13
PHF66 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 31 15-16-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
PHF68 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 31 15-17-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
PHF73 12 24 14 12 11-14 12 12 12 12 13 16 15 9-10 11 11 26 14 19 30 14-15-16-18 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
PHF80 12 25 15 11 12-13 11 12 13 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 12 17-23 15 17 12 13 14
PHF81 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 15 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-15 11 13 18-23 16 16 12 12 12
PHF82 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 31 15-17-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13


Figure 1 from the study:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/king_figure1.jpg


Joe, here is another SplitsTree analysis. In contrast to the one from yesterday, there is definite structure here, which I am sure will assist in helping shed further light on the possible relationships between the haplotypes, across these particular STRs.

SM = Smyrna sample
PH = Phocaea sample

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/king_greek_sada_mezdo.jpg

Joe B
10-13-2013, 06:18 AM
A comparison of Mezdo (ASY01) and Sada's (ASY02) haplotypes, with the R-M269 men from the below Roy King study, based on a number of overlapping STRs:

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69)
King et al.

BMC Evolutionary Biology 2011, 11:69

The data, including the two Assyrians:


XXXXX 393 390 394 391 385 426 388 439 389I 392 389B 458 459 455 454 447 437 448 449 464 460 H4 YCA 456 442 438 444 446
ASY01 12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 14
ASY02 12 23 12 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 28 16 9-10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF09 13 24 14 10 12-14 12 12 10 13 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF11 12 23 14 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 14 15 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 27 15-15-16-19 10 12 19-22 16 16 12 12 13
SMF18 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 9-10 12 11 25 15 20 30 14-14-15-18 11 13 19-23 15 18 12 12 14
SMF26 13 24 14 12 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14-16-16-16 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 11 15
SMF29 13 24 15 12 11-14 12 12 12 14 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-16-16-17 11 11 19-22 15 17 12 12 13
SMF31 12 24 14 10 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 15 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15-15-16-17 11 14 19-23 15 17 12 12 13
SMF36 13 25 14 12 12-14 12 12 11 14 12 18 18 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 12 11 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
SMF40 13 24 15 10 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 17 18 9-10 11 11 25 14 17 29 16-16-16-16 11 12 19-23 17 17 12 13 13
SMF41 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 12 19-23 14 17 12 12 15
SMF46 13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF50 13 25 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 16 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF51 12 25 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 17 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-14-16-17 11 13 19-23 15 16 12 12 14
SMF57 13 24 14 11 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-18 12 12 19-23 15 16 12 12 15
SMF59 13 24 14 10 11-11 12 12 12 13 13 16 15 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-16-16-17 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
SMF63 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-17-17 11 12 19-23 15 17 12 11 13
PHF66 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 31 15-16-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
PHF68 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 31 15-17-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13
PHF73 12 24 14 12 11-14 12 12 12 12 13 16 15 9-10 11 11 26 14 19 30 14-15-16-18 12 12 19-23 15 17 12 12 15
PHF80 12 25 15 11 12-13 11 12 13 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 24 14 19 30 15-15-17-17 10 12 17-23 15 17 12 13 14
PHF81 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 15 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15-15-15-15 11 13 18-23 16 16 12 12 12
PHF82 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 16 18 9-10 11 11 27 15 19 31 15-17-17-17 11 12 19-23 16 17 12 12 13


Figure 1 from the study:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/king_figure1.jpg


Joe, here is another SplitsTree analysis. In contrast to the one from yesterday, there is definite structure here, which I am sure will assist in helping shed further light on the possible relationships between the haplotypes, across these particular STRs.

SM = Smyrna sample
PH = Phocaea sample

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/king_greek_sada_mezdo.jpg

Thanks Humanist,
Is this Mezdo's ancestral area - Ţyāré, Hakkâri? Is Ţyāré a district or area rather than a village or city? Reading about the Assyrians of Ţyāré gives a little insight to a very proud people. were renowned even amongst neighboring Kurds and Armenians for their yogurt, cheese and other dairy products mostly made from sheep or goat's milk Guess what I'm looking for in the dairy section!
Adding Mezdo (ASY01) and Sada's (ASY02) haplotypes helps to show the probable Z2103 groups verses the tight DYS393=13 groups that may be P312+ or U106+. At least that is what I'm seeing. Some of these abstract charts are like a Rorschach test to me.

The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69)
King et al. BMC Evolutionary Biology 2011, 11:69
This paper deserves a thread. Often when reading post about the arrival of farming in Europe it sounds like it happened all at once. More than likely it was waves of domesticated plants and animals along with waves of farming techniques and technologies. Anatolia seems to be an obvious choice of origin because it is like a mini-continent. A great training ground for different areas of Europe.
King et al. is neat in that it connects viniculture with Greek Y-DNA haplogroups and the Côte d'Azur. Z2103 could have been part of a later agricultural change. Viticulture sounds good to me.

Rathna
10-13-2013, 10:58 AM
@Joe B (about King et al. paper)

I wrote a lot about this paper when it was published, and I criticized it a lot too. Aleria in Corsica had nothing to do with Greeks, because they were defeated on 540 AC by Etruscans and Phoenicians and migrated to Velia, near Paestum (Poseidon), where were born the great phylosophers of the Eleatic school, the greatest was Parmenides etc. Roy King et al should have searched for Greek ancestry there, if it is still detectable.
About these haplotypes from Smyrna and Phocaea I'd say that nothing assure us that they have something to do with ancient inhabitants of these towns.
SMF26, 41, 45, 50, 57 and 59 belong to that we (Argiedude and me) called the "Albanian or Balkan cluster": DYS385=11-11 and DYS459a=8, and they could have come recently from Arvanites etc.
Many haplotypes with DYS392=14 could be R-L23/L277+.
Interesting is PHF80, clearly a R-M269 with YCAII=17-23, which could shed some light on my theory of the Italian R-M269/YCAII=17-23, but Italy has a higher presence and variance, and not only in Calabria, where one could suppose a Greek origin, but also in Piedmont:

N75406 Salvatore Urso (1885~), Mesoraca, Calabria, Italy Italy R1b1a2
12 25 14 10 14-14 11 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 11 24 15 19 31 14-15-16-17 11 11 17-23 15 17 19 18 35-38 13 12
65964 Antonio Mirante, Catanzaro, Italy Italy R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 17-23 15 16 18 17 36-39 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 12 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 14 8 13 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
36953 Giuseppe Miceli, b. 1883, Catanzaro, Italy Italy R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 12-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 29 15-15-16-17 10 11 17-23 16 16 18 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 DYS461=13
N82972 Vincenzo Catougno, b. c. 1878, Naples, Italy Italy R1b1a2
12 25 16 11 12-14 11 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 32 15-15-16-17 10 10 17-23 16 17 18 17 35-38 12 10
47633 John Alexander Ferrero b.1850 Torino, Italy Italy R1b1a2
12 25 14 11 12-14 11 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 20 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 17-22 15 16 18 17 36-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

Rathna
10-13-2013, 03:17 PM
@ Humanist

What does it mean a SplitTree done by 1 R-M269*, 6 R-L23(Balkan cluster), 5-L23/L277+ and some more recent subclades, probably come from many different places of origin?

Humanist
10-13-2013, 04:25 PM
@ Humanist

What does it mean a SplitTree done by 1 R-M269*, 6 R-L23(Balkan cluster), 5-L23/L277+ and some more recent subclades, probably come from many different places of origin?

Sorry, Rathna. You go first.

Post #49 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584&p=15938&viewfull=1#post15938).

For your convenience, I am posting it again, below:


In this case it would be demonstrated that the origin of R-L23* is in Italy or at least in the Balkans and not in Middle East.

It is certainly possible that it is Balkans in origin. I have favored something in the neighborhood of W. Anatolia for a while now. Speaking of Balkans, on a somewhat related note, I would like to get your opinion on the possible [genetic] impact of Magna Graecia on Italy and Sicily.

Wikipedia


Magna Graecia (Latin meaning "Great Greece", Greek: Μεγάλη Ἑλλάς, Megálē Hellás) is the name of the coastal areas of Southern Italy on the Tarentine Gulf that were extensively colonized by Greek settlers; particularly the Achaean colonies of Tarentum, Croton, and Sybaris, but also, more loosely, the cities of Cumae and Neapolis to the north.[1] The colonists, who began arriving in the 8th century BC, brought with them their Hellenic civilization, which was to leave a lasting imprint in Italy, particularly on the culture of ancient Rome.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/magna_gr.jpg


Cities of Magna Graecia and other Greek colonies in Italy (in red)

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/paulgiva78/passover/colonie_greche.jpg


Also, I never realized (or perhaps appreciated that) the Phoenicians had settlements on Sardinia.


From the 8th century BC, Phoenicians founded several cities and strongholds on south west of Sardinia; Tharros, Bithia, Sulcis, Nora and Karalis (Cagliari). The Phoenicians came originally from what is now Lebanon and founded a vast trading network in the Mediterranean. They settled along the south western coasts. Sardinia had a special position because it was central in the Western Mediterranean between Carthage, Spain, the Rhone river and the Etruscan civilization area. The mining area around Iglesias was important for the metals lead and zinc. The cities were founded on strategic points, often peninsulas or islands near estuaries, easy to defend and natural harbours. After the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians took over control in that part of the Mediterranean, around 550 BC. They expanded their influence to the eastern and southern coast from Bosa to Karalis, consolidating a large number of Phoenician colonies all over the western Mediterranean under one empire for the first time. The cities were administered by plenipotentiaries called Sufetes, which stressed the growing of grain and cereals.

Rathna
10-13-2013, 08:04 PM
@ Humanist&AJL

...

Mikewww
10-13-2013, 08:20 PM
@ Humanist&AJL

Humanist, I discussed about this already from my first year on the blogs: 2007 on Rootsweb, and, because I said that there was the richest man of the world who sponsored that many mediterranean people were of Phoenician origin (it isn't difficult to understand which interests are beyond this), they banned me. Certainly you remember the problem of R-M18, a subclade of R-V88, found in Sardinia and Lebanon. There were who thought that the origin was in Lebanon and the Sardinian ones were descendants of Phoenicians and who thought the other way around. Don't forget that Sardinian mercenaries fought in Middle East at least from the 13th century AC. It seems to me that now the most part of genetists think that R-M18 is born in ancient Sardinia. It is the same problem of the origin of Jewish mtDNA K, and you could read my answer in another thread.
You and AJL put the accent about the possible origin of Italians from Phoenicians or Greeks. But do you think that Greeks are Middle Easterners? Aren't they the core of the Indo-European peoples? Aren't they descendants of Balkan people at least?
The other your idea is that Etruscans came from Asia Minor, and this would justify the presence of many haplogroups in Tuscany, but nobody amongst the archaeologists believes to-day to this, and I have written tons of letter against the papers who tried to demonstrate this and it seems to me that also the sponsors of these young female scholars are giving reason to me: to do some names, you could think to Brisighelli and Caramelli etc.
There has been another time when a worthy person like David Faux thought that R-U152 in Italy was Celt. Now we know that it isn't true.
I'd exspect from you (whom I esteem, and from many years) some statement more scientific and less ideological, for instance to wait for the ancient DNA, or the Full Y, which will answer soon all our questions, or, at least, to answer my specific remarks: your tree has no meaning, because you have put together many different haplogroups (and you should have seen that their DYS442=17 should be the 12 value as to FTDNA) or to know deeper history: Aleria hadn't Greek population, we don't know how many Phoenicians survived the Roman Conquest after Hannibal or how many Celts survived in Italy after the 390 BC or how many Jews survived the two wars of 66-70 and 132-135 AD etc.
Of course I think that they will demonstrate all my positions. We will see next.

Speaking as Moderator: I'm trying to figure out what this post has to do with L277 or L584. Please update to place on topic or move over to http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?927-Rathna-s-assessment-of-genetic-materials

Joe B
10-13-2013, 09:15 PM
The question from the other day. See post #43 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584/page5)
Since we now have two kits that are both L277+ and Geno2.0 tested.
N81217 Karatepeoglu and 177152 Burkholder
Does L150>L478>PF6404>Z2103>Z2105>L277 make sense? What does that mean developing the Early Branching Phylogenetic tree?

Ratha has replied
For more clarification, this is the tree:

R-L478/PF6404

|
-------------------------------------------
R-Z2103/Z2105..................................R-L51

Mikewww
10-15-2013, 04:03 AM
The question from the other day. See post #43 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?112-L277-and-L584/page5)
Since we now have two kits that are both L277+ and Geno2.0 tested.
N81217 Karatepeoglu and 177152 Burkholder
Does L150>L478>PF6404>Z2103>Z2105>L277 make sense? What does that mean developing the Early Branching Phylogenetic tree?

Ratha has replied
For more clarification, this is the tree:

R-L478/PF6404

|
-------------------------------------------
R-Z2103/Z2105..................................R-L51

I'm not sure if L478/PF6404 is relevant. It may be upstream and not be on a branch of its own.

I'm just looking at all of this as I'm trying to update the R1b early subclades spreadsheet so I can merge it into a tool that all R1b predicted people can use for SNP testing guidance.

L150 is a mess.

There are some people reported as L150+ and L23-. Theoretically that is L150.1 but ISOGG is now listing that L150 is an equivalent .. L150+ and L23+ that is.

At the same time there is supposed to be a back mutation (or something of the sort) under L23+ that is L150.2!.

I'm not sure L150 is useful other than as a advanced "STR like" marker. I don't know. Help!

Rathna
10-15-2013, 05:58 AM
I'm not sure if L478/PF6404 is relevant. It may be upstream and not be on a branch of its own.

I'm just looking at all of this as I'm trying to update the R1b early subclades spreadsheet so I can merge it into a tool that all R1b predicted people can use for SNP testing guidance.

L150 is a mess.

There are some people reported as L150+ and L23-. Theoretically that is L150.1 but ISOGG is now listing that L150 is an equivalent .. L150+ and L23+ that is.

At the same time there is supposed to be a back mutation (or something of the sort) under L23+ that is L150.2!.

I'm not sure L150 is useful other than as a advanced "STR like" marker. I don't know. Help!

L478 and PF6404 are important SNPs, because don't belong to R-M269, then they are new. Probably they should be on the same plane of L23/L49, as no one L23* has been found so far which were L478- and PF6404-, then my tree is correct, and the bifurcation happens between Z2103/Z2105 and L51. It isn't excluded that we'll be able to find in the future some sample which breaks these four SNPs, but it is also possible at this point that no descendant has survived of those intermediate SNPs.
About L150 we have discussed a lot in the past. I raised the problem of the R-M269/L150-. From the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet" seems that all the R-M269* tested are also L150+, then I asked if there was some M269* which were also L150-. In these case the discriminant SNPs are the three "Sardinian" ones: PF7558, PF7562, PF7563, which could be born in a subclade of M269* after that it generated a R-L23*, this could be the unique line survived and wouldn't say anything about the origin of M269 nor of L23. We need more data, but for what I know they aren't arriving, and someone has also some difficulties to send his data to FTDNA, like DeMao of the R1b1* haplogroup, but whose data I had and published on this forum.

AJL
10-15-2013, 06:00 PM
no one L23* has been found so far which were L478- and PF6404-

I think Mike's question is, since L150 is unreliable, how do we know these SNPs don't appear higher on the tree? Who has tested negative for these so far?

Joe B
10-15-2013, 08:45 PM
I'm not sure if L478/PF6404 is relevant. It may be upstream and not be on a branch of its own.

I'm just looking at all of this as I'm trying to update the R1b early subclades spreadsheet so I can merge it into a tool that all R1b predicted people can use for SNP testing guidance.

L150 is a mess.

There are some people reported as L150+ and L23-. Theoretically that is L150.1 but ISOGG is now listing that L150 is an equivalent .. L150+ and L23+ that is.

At the same time there is supposed to be a back mutation (or something of the sort) under L23+ that is L150.2!.

I'm not sure L150 is useful other than as a advanced "STR like" marker. I don't know. Help!
L478/PF6404 does not appear to be relevant right now. The Morley tree is putting some emphasis on these two snps. Doesn't take much to fool this rookie.
Taking AJL's advise helped to clarify things.
L478/PF6404 does not appear with the L150.?+ (L150+ L23-, PF7558+) group.
L23+, 150+ are also L478/PF6404+ so far, as are the downstream clades.

L150 is confusing more than anything.

Rathna
10-15-2013, 08:51 PM
I think Mike's question is, since L150 is unreliable, how do we know these SNPs don't appear higher on the tree? Who has tested negative for these so far?

I don't agree that L150 is unreliable. It seems that it is very stable, at least from the Geno 2.0 data, but also from the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet". What I asked is to know if there is some R-M269 which is L150-. I haven't seen anyone so far, whereas it is clear that all the other hgs and the subclades upstream of R-M269 are L150-.
I asked also to know if there are some R-M269 which haven't the three "Sardinian "SNPs: PF7558, PF7562, PF7563. I haven't seen anyone so far.
Which haplogroup or subclade is negative for L478 and PF6404? The R-M269 known so far are negative, then these two SNPs, as I said above, are on the same plane of L23/L49.

AJL
10-15-2013, 08:59 PM
I don't agree that L150 is unreliable. It seems that it is very stable, at least from the Geno 2.0 data, but also from the "Adriano Squecco spreadsheet".

Perhaps you did not catch this earlier but Adriano himself is saying L150 is unreliable.

Rathna
10-15-2013, 09:03 PM
L478/PF6404 does not appear to be relevant right now. The Morley tree is putting some emphasis on these two snps. Doesn't take much to fool this rookie.
Taking AJL's advise helped to clarify things.
L478/PF6404 does not appear with the L150.?+ (L150+ L23-, PF7558+) group.
L23+, 150+ are also L478/PF6404+ so far, as are the downstream clades.

L150 is confusing more than anything.

The confusion has been made by who takes L150+ like the most important SNP: see the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" but also the "R1b Jewish project".
Who is L150+/L23-/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ is R-M269 (perhaps the unique survived: I haven' seen anyone different so far).
Who is 150+/L23+(L49+)/PF7558- etc. is R-L23, not found so far like L23*, but in two different haplotypes: L23/Z2103/Z2105+ (mine) and R/L23/L51+.
L277+, L584+, L23&L150- etc. are subclades of R-L23/Z2103/Z2105*
L11 is a subclade of R-L51 and the ancestor of all the other subclades.

Joe B
10-15-2013, 09:42 PM
The confusion has been made by who takes L150+ like the most important SNP: see the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" but also the "R1b Jewish project".
Who is L150+/L23-/PF7558+/PF7562+/PF7563+ is R-M269 (perhaps the unique survived: I haven' seen anyone different so far).
Who is 150+/L23+(L49+)/PF7558- etc. is R-L23, not found so far like L23*, but in two different haplotypes: L23/Z2103/Z2105+ (mine) and R/L23/L51+.
L277+, L584+, L23&L150- etc. are subclades of R-L23/Z2103/Z2105*
L11 is a subclade of R-L51 and the ancestor of all the other subclades.
I think the confusion goes a little higher than the project managers. Doesn't Geno2.0 label some L150 along with CTS7822 and PF7563? I think FTDNA switches them all over to L150 once they transfer results. That's a question.

We really need the help of the R1b1b2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project managers. Let's try to make it an inviting place for their imput.

Rathna
10-16-2013, 02:58 AM
I think the confusion goes a little higher than the project managers. Doesn't Geno2.0 label some L150 along with CTS7822 and PF7563?


R-CTS7822 (aka Z2110) is a subclade of R-Z2103/Z2105, only that there are some SNPs in between not tested by Geno 2.0. The primers were found by Richard Rocca and sent to FTDNA, but it seems he hadn't any answer, above all after the Krahn's case.
R-CTS7763/CTS8966 is another subclade of R-Z2103/Z2105, then they are of course L150+. The only known so far L23 with L150- are Romitti and Seymour, and on the "ht 35 FTDNA Project" they have done a subclade with other persons who have nothing to do with them, because they are L150+, see Ware Geno 2.0 tested.

PF7563 (with the other two Sardinian SNPs PF7558 and PF7562) is a mutation found so far in all the R-M269 tested which are also L150+.

AJL
10-16-2013, 03:11 AM
Semagrl shows that nobody has tested negative for CTS7822:

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/2244/

or PF7563:

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/5303/

In short, that means we still do not know where it is on the tree, no? Perhaps you could clarify, Richard?

Rathna
10-16-2013, 03:23 AM
Semagrl shows that nobody has tested negative for CTS7822:

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/2244/

or PF7563:

http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/item-snp/5303/

In short, that means we still do not know where it is on the tree, no? Perhaps you could clarify, Richard?

All the R-L23+ are negative for CTS7822 except the few that are positive. The same for PF7563 (and the other two Sardinian SNPs): all the R-M269+/L150+ are positive, but all the upstream and downstream subclades are negative. I have asked if there are some R-M269 which is negative. I haven't seen anyone so far and I have asked if this R-M269 are the only survived of this haplogroup, but we should test other R-M269 to know it.

Silesian
01-02-2014, 07:13 AM
R1b L584+ Syrian Arab,Germany, Ukraine TMRCA Estimated +/-

Genetic Distance
RS5ZY-Aleppo, Syrian Arab 0 generation R1b L584+
7PJJJ -Westhofen, Germany 66/17 68 generations 2040 years R1b L584+
PYFSG-Ukraine 66/25 108 generations 3240 years R1b L584+


R1b L277+ Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Swiss TMRCA Estimated +-

Genetic Distance

KJ8UQ-Uralsk, Kazakhstan 0 generations R1b L277+
PKP7K-Lebanon 67:26 111 generations 3330 years R1b L277+
KJY63-Swiss 37: 20 151 generations 4530 years R1b L277+

Qara
04-16-2014, 12:38 AM
Are Turkmen and Bashkir R1b-L23 samples L584+ or L584-? Their haplotypes like Z2103+ and L277-. And how old is L584 snp? What do you think?

Joe B
04-17-2014, 09:16 PM
Are Turkmen and Bashkir R1b-L23 samples L584+ or L584-? Their haplotypes like Z2103+ and L277-. And how old is L584 snp? What do you think?
Welcome to the Anthrogenica forum. You should find a lot information and some speculation on the different threads.
Looking at the Turkmen people in the broadest sense, L584, L277 and other R1b-Z2103 clades should be present in today's current Turkmen population.
The Bashkir people are a smaller group of Turkic people and it would be very interesting to know what subclades the R1b haplotypes belong to. There is a very distinct group of R1b haplotypes in the 021. BASHKIRS R1b+Z2105 // BURYJAN LINE section of the SORAMAN (Bashkirs DNA & Suyun projects) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). They need some proper SNP testing.
This whole area of Turkmen and Bashqort Y-DNA is a little confusing because of the numerous projects.
Google search "Turkmen FTDNA" or "Bashkir FTNDA" and you'll see quite a few projects to look at.

My personal opinion on the age of L584 is that it is very old since it is seen in Armenians, Assyrians and Jews. It may predate these very old populations.

Qara, please let us know when the pending SNP result arrives.

Qara
04-17-2014, 11:54 PM
Welcome to the Anthrogenica forum. You should find a lot information and some speculation on the different threads.
Looking at the Turkmen people in the broadest sense, L584, L277 and other R1b-Z2103 clades should be present in today's current Turkmen population.
The Bashkir people are a smaller group of Turkic people and it would be very interesting to know what subclades the R1b haplotypes belong to. There is a very distinct group of R1b haplotypes in the 021. BASHKIRS R1b+Z2105 // BURYJAN LINE section of the SORAMAN (Bashkirs DNA & Suyun projects) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/suyun/default.aspx?section=ycolorized). They need some proper SNP testing.
This whole area of Turkmen and Bashqort Y-DNA is a little confusing because of the numerous projects.
Google search "Turkmen FTDNA" or "Bashkir FTNDA" and you'll see quite a few projects to look at.

My personal opinion on the age of L584 is that it is very old since it is seen in Armenians, Assyrians and Jews. It may predate these very old populations.

Qara, please let us know when the pending SNP result arrives.


Thank you for answer.

"My personal opinion on the age of L584 is that it is very old since it is seen in Armenians, Assyrians and Jews. It may predate these very old populations."

Yes, I agree it. I think, maybe + Iranians (from northwest Iran) and Georgians with belong to L584+.

So, could Turkmen and Bashkir R1b1a2 samples be generally L584-?

There are two R1b1a2 samples from Azerbaijan Dna Project and they tested L584.

One of them L584-, he is from Karabagh-Shusha.
And the other one L584+, he is from Nakhchivan.

Joe B
04-18-2014, 04:55 AM
Thank you for answer.

"My personal opinion on the age of L584 is that it is very old since it is seen in Armenians, Assyrians and Jews. It may predate these very old populations."

Yes, I agree it. I think, maybe + Iranians (from northwest Iran) and Georgians with belong to L584+.

So, could Turkmen and Bashkir R1b1a2 samples generally L584-?

There are two R1b1a2 samples from Azerbaijan Dna Project and they tested L584.

One of them L584-, he is from Karabagh-Shusha.
And the other one L584+, he is from Nakhchivan.

It's difficult to say for sure about L584 and R1b Turkmen or Bashkir samples. The only way to know is to SNP test. It wouldn't be too surprising to see Z2110/CTS7822+ in the Bashkir samples.
The STR variance in the Azerbaijan DNA Project samples makes it very difficult to predict L584+ with any certainty. Azerbaijan and the other Trans-Caucasus countries are essential to the study of R1b-Z2103. Thanks for doing your part by SNP testing.
Semargl has some good information.
L584 Map http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/471/
R1b-Z2103-L584 Table haplotypes http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/table/512/
The Assyrian Heritage DNA Project has some interesting L584 haplotypes too. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

TomJohn
09-17-2014, 01:08 PM
I've sponsored a Robins/Robinson whose ancestors are from Scotland. His haplogroup is R-L23 (L51-). Somehow I've missed the discussions about L277 and L584. Are these new SNPs European? Is there any reasonable chance that we would benefit by testing for these SNPs?
Thanks.

I am also R1b-L23+, L51- and have ordered Z2103 and L584. Can trace my line back to Baden-Wurttemburg, Germany in the early 17th Century. Not clear to me at this point if the L584+ line in western Europe is due to an early neolithic migration or a result of transplants from eastern to western Europe in a more recent time period.

Silesian
09-17-2014, 01:59 PM
Hi TomJohn, welcome to our many branched cluster of R1b.

L277+L584+CTS-9219+{b5. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ L277- L584- CTS7822- CTS7763-Not plotted}
Here is current snp variance, plotted from R1b-Z2103+
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2vcjd38.jpg

M269{L23} map added

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/M269_without_L23.png

Joe B
09-17-2014, 02:33 PM
I am also R1b-L23+, L51- and have ordered Z2103 and L584. Can trace my line back to Baden-Wurttemburg, Germany in the early 17th Century. Not clear to me at this point if the L584+ line in western Europe is due to an early neolithic migration or a result of transplants from eastern to western Europe in a more recent time period.
Hi Tom and welcome to Anthrogenica. Thank you for ordering SNPs Z2103 and L584. There just are not many R1b-Z2103 haplotypes or it's R1b-L584 subclade in Germany or Western Europe so they are most likely not the result of neolithic migration. We do have a few R1b-L584 haplotypes in Germany that are Jewish or have some Jewish ancestry. It's also possible that you are not R1b-L584 and are part of another R1b-Z2103 subclade too. There are a few of those from Germany that are R1b-CTS7822>CTS9219 and my(#257842) unknown R1b-Z2103 subclade from Südhessen.
Tom, if you want to, post your FTDNA kit number so your STRs can be compared to other haplotypes.
Thank you for testing, it's most appreciated.

TomJohn
09-17-2014, 02:57 PM
Thanks for the greetings and information! My FTDNA kit number is B8903 (L23+, L150-, L51-, P312-, U106-, Z2103 pending, L584 pending). Member of R1b1a2/ht35 project.

Tom

Silesian
09-17-2014, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the greetings and information! My FTDNA kit number is B8903 (L23+, L150-, L51-, P312-, U106-, Z2103 pending, L584 pending). Member of R1b1a2/ht35 project.

Tom

Here is an example of the variation found within our R1b Z2103- L277+ L584+ groups, using Dodecad K12 calculator from Gedmatch.
http://v2.gedmatch.com/login1.php

L277+ Ukraine region/sample 1 Eurogenes ANE K7 model =18.71% ANE

Dodecad k12b
Population
Gedrosia 3.84%
Siberian 1.94%
Northwest_African -
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 21.85%
North_European 55.26%
South_Asian 0.83%
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 0.68%
East_Asian 0.09%
Caucasus 15.51%
Sub_Saharan -

L584+ Ukraine region/sample 2 Eurogenes ANE K7 model 18.26% ANE.

Dodecad k12b
Population
Gedrosia 2.77%
Siberian 2.18%
Northwest_African 0.65%
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 22.60%
North_European 60.43%
South_Asian 1.40%
East_African -
Southwest_Asian -
East_Asian -
Caucasus 9.97%
Sub_Saharan -


L277+ Jewish Heritage sample 3 Eurogenes ANE K7 model 9.37% ANE

Dodecad K12b
Population
Gedrosia 5.11%
Siberian 1.06%
Northwest_African 3.75%
Southeast_Asian 1.05%
Atlantic_Med 23.61%
North_European 16.76%
South_Asian -
East_African 1.36%
Southwest_Asian 13.19%
East_Asian 0.34%
Caucasus 33.72%
Sub_Saharan -

L584+ Jewish Heritage Eurogenes ANE K7 model-8.86%

Dodecad k12b
Population
Gedrosia 4.84%
Siberian 0.59%
Northwest_African 1.80%
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 25.69%
North_European 14.07%
South_Asian 1.30%
East_African 1.13%
Southwest_Asian 15.51%
East_Asian 0.86%
Caucasus 33.93%
Sub_Saharan 0.28%


As you can see we come in many different flavors :)

late edit-added ref. population K12b for comparison above 4 sample= LithuanianD+AshkenaziD+Lezgins


LithuanianD-K12b
73.7-North European
13.9-AtlanticMed
10.1-Caucasus
1.6-SouthWest Asian
0.7-South Asian


AshkenaziD-K12b
38.3-Caucasus
25.9-Atlantic Med
13.9-SouthWest Asian
13-North European
4.7-North West African
2.1-Gedrosia
0.9-South Asian
0.5-Siberian
0.2-East African


Lezgins K12b
45.6-Caucasus
27.8-Gedrosia
23.8-North European
1.7-Siberian
0.8-South West Asian
0.3-Atlantic Med


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE#gid=0

brygian
10-18-2014, 07:38 AM
L943 was recommended for listing on the ISOGG tree as R1b1a2a2a1.

brygian
10-18-2014, 04:03 PM
L943 was recommended for listing on the ISOGG tree as R1b1a2a2a1.

L943 is now R1b1a2a2a1: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Akatosh86
11-21-2014, 04:54 AM
hello everyone,

I'm an ethnic Georgian with predicted L584 (ftdna snp results will be available any day now), but I will need your assistance concerning what to do next. I was recommended taking Geno 2.0, but it didn't work out (for logistical reasons, mostly) so I intend to go on with the ftdna.

smal
11-21-2014, 05:32 AM
I was recommended taking Geno 2.0, but it didn't work out (for logistical reasons, mostly) so I intend to go on with the ftdna.

I don't recommend Geno 2.0 for R-L584. What is your kit number?

brygian
11-21-2014, 06:38 AM
There are roumors that Big Y will be discounted at under $400 in about a couple of weeks. FGC usually does the same so maybe one of these tests?

Akatosh86
11-21-2014, 06:49 AM
What is your kit number?

my kit number is 321884 . L584 is merely predicted since my tests were STR-based but as far as i can tell it's the most likely candidate

smal
11-21-2014, 04:43 PM
my kit number is 321884 . L584 is merely predicted since my tests were STR-based but as far as i can tell it's the most likely candidate

You can only test for your predicted L584. SNPs under L584 are unknown for your line. There are only BigY or FGС tests to find new SNPs.

Joe B
11-21-2014, 06:36 PM
my kit number is 321884 . L584 is merely predicted since my tests were STR-based but as far as i can tell it's the most likely candidate
Akatosh86 - Welcome to Anthrogenica and the most interesting area of the R1b tree. This thread and Thread: From R-L23/L150 to R-PF7580 & L584 (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1586-From-R-L23-L150-to-R-PF7580-amp-L584/page8) have most of the discussion about R1b-L584 and Forum: R1b Early Subclades (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?51-R1b-Early-Subclades) covers about everthing associated with the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx). The phylogenetic trees for the project are updated by smal on a regular basis. byrgian handles our listings on the peer reviewed ISOGG tree. We should see your results for L23 and Z2103 very soon.......if the FTDNA lab isn't too backed up. Thank you for testing those SNPs. Depending on your results for L23 and Z2103 you have a couple of options for testing as smal and byrgian indicated. If you are Z2103+ as we all suspect, testing for the R1b-L584 branch makes sense and SNP L584 is still the definitive SNP test. As smal indicated and he would know, SNPs downstream of L584 are hard to predict based on STRs. You could test for L943 and CTS1848 if you are L584+, but you may belong to a unknown line of SNPs downstream of L584 like smal said. That happens in your part of the world a lot and that makes this an interesting part of the R1b-tree. What would yield the most science would be NGS (next-generation sequencing) such as Big Y from FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/) or Comprehensive Y-DNA Sequencing from Full Genomes Corporation (https://www.fullgenomes.com/) that byrgian mentioned. That would be the only way to discover those SNPs.
Once again, thanks for your testing and welcome.

quxuq
12-01-2014, 07:23 PM
Hello, my uncle was tested positive for L584 quite long time ago. He is 178932 in FTDNA's ht35 Project. They are from Eastern Anatolia. They are Alevis like my paternal side. My uncle says that they came from Khazaria. The name of his clan is Charak(Çarek), and he claims that this clan is an Oghuz tribe. I wasn't informed about his Y-dna for years. So any new informations about ethnical and geographical connections of L584 etc will be appreciated. Thank you

Silesian
12-01-2014, 08:04 PM
Hello, my uncle was tested positive for L584 quite long time ago. He is 178932 in FTDNA's ht35 Project. They are from Eastern Anatolia. They are Alevis like my paternal side. My uncle says that they came from Khazaria. The name of his clan is Charak(Çarek), and he claims that this clan is an Oghuz tribe. I wasn't informed about his Y-dna for years. So any new informations about ethnical and geographical connections of L584 etc will be appreciated. Thank you

Thank you for posting your family heritage and history. There are many areas that full testing has not been done. The area of Caucasus and Botai region as well as Khazakstan are areas you might find your branch R1b L584+
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults
Kazakhstan/Azerbaijan/Georgia
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/alash/default.aspx?section=yresults

Caspian
12-01-2014, 08:22 PM
Hello, my uncle was tested positive for L584 quite long time ago. He is 178932 in FTDNA's ht35 Project. They are from Eastern Anatolia. They are Alevis like my paternal side. My uncle says that they came from Khazaria. The name of his clan is Charak(Çarek), and he claims that this clan is an Oghuz tribe. I wasn't informed about his Y-dna for years. So any new informations about ethnical and geographical connections of L584 etc will be appreciated. Thank you

My maternal grandpa belongs to R1b1a2a2 L23+ Z2103+ L584+ too. He is Azeri, and his paternal ancestors from North West Iran. His closest match is a Talysh(N.W.Iranian language speakers) man from Lenkaran. This branch has a high frequency in Talysh people.
(Talysh language in Azerbaijan and Zazakî language in Eastern Anatolia are very similar, Zazakî is more close to Talysh than to Kurdish.)

quxuq
12-01-2014, 09:14 PM
My maternal grandpa belongs to R1b1a2a2 L23+ Z2103+ L584+ too. He is Azeri, and his paternal ancestors from North West Iran. His closest match is a Talysh(N.W.Iranian language speakers) man from Lenkaran. This branch has a high frequency in Talysh people.
(Talysh language in Azerbaijan and Zazakî language in Eastern Anatolia are very similar, Zazakî is more close to Talysh than to Kurdish.)

It's interesting. After my (autosomal) Dna results I begin to think that we might have Zaza & Kurdish ancestry. And another evidence is my paternal line is from Dersim(the only place in Turkey where Zazaki language and Alevi Faith is dominant)before 18th century,and afterwards they moved not too far from the region.

Caspian
12-01-2014, 09:32 PM
It's interesting. After my (autosomal) Dna results I begin to think that we might have Zaza & Kurdish ancestry. And another evidence is my paternal line is from Dersim(the only place in Turkey where Zazaki language and Alevi Faith is dominant)before 18th century,and afterwards they moved not too far from the region.

"I think" Alevis have strong Iranian influence (culturally, religious and maybe genetically) like Azeris.

Joe B
12-01-2014, 09:59 PM
Hello, my uncle was tested positive for L584 quite long time ago. He is 178932 in FTDNA's ht35 Project. They are from Eastern Anatolia. They are Alevis like my paternal side. My uncle says that they came from Khazaria. The name of his clan is Charak(Çarek), and he claims that this clan is an Oghuz tribe. I wasn't informed about his Y-dna for years. So any new informations about ethnical and geographical connections of L584 etc will be appreciated. Thank you

My maternal grandpa belongs to R1b1a2a2 L23+ Z2103+ L584+ too. He is Azeri, and his paternal ancestors from North West Iran. His closest match is a Talysh(N.W.Iranian language speakers) man from Lenkaran. This branch has a high frequency in Talysh people.
(Talysh language in Azerbaijan and Zazakî language in Eastern Anatolia are very similar, Zazakî is more close to Talysh than to Kurdish.)
Thank you for helping the R1b-L584 branch with your family histories. We really need more testing for this branch. Would you mind testing for SNPs L943 and CTS1848 which are just downstream of L584. Better yet, if you can, Big Y testing is needed so that we can discover new SNPs and get some real definition to the R1b-L584 branch. This is especially important for your part of the world where these lines are very old and next door neighbor R1b-L584 lines can be seperated by thousands of years.
Please have a look at the phylogentic trees on the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project)- Background (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new/default.aspx) page.
Thanks guys!

Alanson
12-03-2014, 08:23 PM
"I think" Alevis have strong Iranian influence (culturally, religious and maybe genetically) like Azeris.

That's a safe assumption it seems if one looks at history.

Highlander
12-23-2014, 05:12 PM
I am going to do 67 clad test soon.

Any suggestion where to start from?

Joe B
12-23-2014, 06:27 PM
I am going to do 67 clad test soon.

Any suggestion where to start from?
Thanks for upgrading to 67 STRs. You might find a coupon on the FTDNA forum or elsewhere. Please consider testing some SNPs like L943 that are downstream of L584.
R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new)

Akatosh86
12-23-2014, 06:38 PM
my results are practically online: Z2103 positive (I assume that means L23 positive too). so, what next? L584 or would you suggest to take Big Y?

Joe B
12-23-2014, 07:11 PM
my results are practically online: Z2103 positive (I assume that means L23 positive too). so, what next? L584 or would you suggest to take Big Y?You are presumed positive for L23+ since you are Z2103+. Thanks for testing Z2103. The cladogram at the R1b-M269+ (P312- U106-) (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35new) project is a good place to check out the SNP descendancy. You are in subgroup _b. R1b-L23: Z2103+ Z2105+ should test L584. Let me speak for everyone. Please take the Big Y test. The data from Georgia and that part of the world is very important.

Highlander
12-23-2014, 07:57 PM
Joe B

What is the Big Y test?
111 clads?

Mikewww
12-23-2014, 09:28 PM
Here is how FTDNA explains their test.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/big-y/

It is a Next Generation Sequencing test that scans millions of locations of the Y chromosome to "discover" unknown SNPs as well as test for known SNPs within the regions it scans. FGC also offers NGS testing.

Caspian
12-23-2014, 09:39 PM
my results are practically online: Z2103 positive (I assume that means L23 positive too). so, what next? L584 or would you suggest to take Big Y?

Are you orginated in Kakheti (or Kvemo Kartli) region? Probably you belong to L584+ like my grandfather.

Akatosh86
12-23-2014, 09:59 PM
Are you orginated in Kakheti (or Kvemo Kartli) region? Probably you belong to L584+ like my grandfather.

I can trace my genealogy more or less precisely till the 1750s and by then my family was already settled where they are from and that would be Guria region in southwest Georgia. There was a family legend that they emigrated from Kakheti in the early 17th century (during the Shah Abbas invasions), but as far as i know it's just a family legend and there are no documents that can prove that. interesting version though, Caspian.

Caspian
12-23-2014, 10:30 PM
I can trace my genealogy more or less precisely till the 1750s and by then my family was already settled where they are from and that would be Guria region in southwest Georgia. There was a family legend that they emigrated from Kakheti in the early 17th century (during the Shah Abbas invasions), but as far as i know it's just a family legend and there are no documents that can prove that. interesting version though, Caspian.

I asked it, because R1b1a2 L584+ found at high frequencies in Kakheti and Kvemo Kartli region in Eastern/SouthEastern Georgia.

http://i.imgur.com/UYWTalb.png

Akatosh86
12-23-2014, 10:37 PM
I asked it, because R1b1a2 L584+ found at high frequencies in Kakheti and Kvemo Kartli region in Eastern/SouthEastern Georgia.

i have heard about the high frequencies of r1b in Kakheti, but I wasn't aware they tested their SNPs. The highest frequencies of r1b among the Georgians, as far as i know, are found in Adjaria and Meskheti (up to 50% in Meskheti, if I'm not mistaken). It is interesting to know whether they are predominantly L584+ too or not.

Joe B
12-23-2014, 11:10 PM
What is the Big Y test?
111 clads?
Here is how FTDNA explains their test.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/big-y/

It is a Next Generation Sequencing test that scans millions of locations of the Y chromosome to "discover" unknown SNPs as well as test for known SNPs within the regions it scans. FGC also offers NGS testing.Just to back Mike up on the Big Y. My results just came in last night and first look from smal at the FTDNA data shows 47 private(discovered) SNPs. We really need more NGS data for the R1b-L584 level.

Pillar_of_fire
12-24-2014, 05:54 AM
Just to back Mike up on the Big Y. My results just came in last night and first look from smal at the FTDNA data shows 47 private(discovered) SNPs. We really need more NGS data for the R1b-L584 level.

I have two USD 100 Big Y coupons. First come first served.

Highlander
12-24-2014, 03:47 PM
I was gonna order 67 clad test yesterday, but was unable to activate my account. I tried to have them send me an activating password, but they never did.
I'll try it tonight as well.

Akatosh86

My ancestors had always lived in the Western part of Georgia called - Imereti, at least what I know. My father still has some distant relatives there, which I never met unfortunately.
It is pretty possible that we might have had a common male ancestor 500 - 1000 years ago. :)

Akatosh86
12-24-2014, 07:38 PM
I was gonna order 67 clad test yesterday, but was unable to activate my account. I tried to have them send me an activating password, but they never did.
I'll try it tonight as well.

Akatosh86

My ancestors had always lived in the Western part of Georgia called - Imereti, at least what I know. My father still has some distant relatives there, which I never met unfortunately.
It is pretty possible that we might have had a common male ancestor 500 - 1000 years ago. :)

That would be great. I was reluctant and procrastinating to order any deep clade tests simply because none of the Georgian r1b-s have really tested their SNPs, but since you are doing your research, I will definitely shoot for Big Y next year.

Pillar_of_fire
01-04-2015, 12:12 AM
Hi all,
results for 343579 are in and he is positive for Z2103. I was told that DYS392=14 is indicative of L277+, but then we have the example of kit N112116, who also has DYS392=14, but is R-CTS7822. We are waiting for the Y67 upgrade.

Pillar_of_fire
02-14-2015, 12:41 PM
Hi all,
results for 343579 are in and he is positive for Z2103. I was told that DYS392=14 is indicative of L277+, but then we have the example of kit N112116, who also has DYS392=14, but is R-CTS7822. We are waiting for the Y67 upgrade.

The Y67 results for 343579 and 331346 are in. In the mean time I ordered also L277 for both of them.

What are the typical DYS values for L277 apart from DYS392=14?

Joe B
02-14-2015, 08:39 PM
The Y67 results for 343579 and 331346 are in. In the mean time I ordered also L277 for both of them.

What are the typical DYS values for L277 apart from DYS392=14?
Thanks Pillar of fire. It's really a matter of all L277.1 haplotypes having DYS392=14 so far. However, they could be something else too.
216616 Tanoli R1b1a2 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 for example is L277.1- for example. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dna_afghan_pak/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
Somemore discussion of L277.1 haplotypes can be found on this thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014 343579 and 331346 strong candidates to be L277.1 +
Congratulations on getting all 67 STR markers for 315636 too.
:biggrin1:

Pillar_of_fire
02-14-2015, 09:10 PM
Thanks Pillar of fire. It's really a matter of all L277.1 haplotypes having DYS392=14 so far. However, they could be something else too.
216616 Tanoli R1b1a2 12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 for example is L277.1- for example. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/dna_afghan_pak/default.aspx?section=ycolorized
Somemore discussion of L277.1 haplotypes can be found on this thread. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1722-R1b-L277-1*-R1b-M269-gt-L23-gt-L150-gt-Z2103-gt-Z2105-gt-L277-1*-2014 343579 and 331346 strong candidates to be L277.1 +
Congratulations on getting all 67 STR markers for 315636 too.
:biggrin1:

My pleasure, thanks for the link to the thread,
The 315636 came in today, while the results for 343579 and 331346 came in yesterday. The test of 315636 was stuck for several weeks on the 13 - 37 panels.

Humanist
02-15-2015, 07:09 PM
Hi Joe. Thanks for the info. There is also the Assyrian from 23andMe, Mezdo (213878).

12 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 27 17 9-10 11 11 24 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 12 19-23 16 16 16 16 35-37 12 12

Hi, Joe. Just a quick question. It appears that Mezdo is no longer categorized as confirmed for L277. I know he has not tested the SNP at FTDNA, but he was one of the men at 23andMe in which the SNP was first identified in 2010/11.

Also, do you think that the Assyrian Sada (190249) is a candidate for L277?

Joe B
02-15-2015, 10:38 PM
Hi, Joe. Just a quick question. It appears that Mezdo is no longer categorized as confirmed for L277. I know he has not tested the SNP at FTDNA, but he was one of the men at 23andMe in which the SNP was first identified in 2010/11.

Also, do you think that the Assyrian Sada (190249) is a candidate for L277?Mezdo is corrected. Just did the same thing for #435 the other day. 190249 testing for L277.1 is a good plan and then Z2103 only if L277 is negative.

Silesian
07-22-2017, 12:51 PM
There are 18 categories within the Jewish R1b project. Many of it's members would be considered neither L277 or L584-.

In fact 24 members are L277- and L584+.45475 from Lithuania is L23+ L584+ L943+ L944+ L945+ & L946+ (Ashkenazi "Group C")--R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) You also have members who are L584- and L277+

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

L277 has been found in Central Europe and as far away as East India.

L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans .

Upadate;
L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans
We are closing in on 5 years since this thread was started.
R1b-L584+ also found in Dagestan Russia.
R-L584* id:ERR1347667 RUS [RU-DA]

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L584/

Joe B
07-22-2017, 05:28 PM
Upadate;
L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans
We are closing in on 5 years since this thread was started.
R1b-L584+ also found in Dagestan Russia.
R-L584* id:ERR1347667 RUS [RU-DA]

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L584/ Thanks for clarifying that non-problem.

Silesian
07-22-2017, 06:12 PM
Anybody know who the lecturer of the 3+/- year old video below? The segment/clip 43-49 minutes is of interest. Brings up some points about R1b. Armenians and "autochthonous" 10000-15000 years ago. Armenians also have R1b L277 and L584. Unless there is an updated version of this video?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etBNo0638Pw

Mis
07-22-2017, 08:43 PM
Peter Hrechdakian

Silesian
07-23-2017, 06:25 PM
duplicate sorry people

Silesian
07-23-2017, 06:26 PM
Peter Hrechdakian

Who is he? The same one who's name is on the 2013 study by Lucotte https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RIQRMwAdjpVVZRRUhDTE91M1U/edit and
2014 study"Different waves and directions of Neolithic migrations in the Armenian Highland"? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4249771/
Some interesting conclusions with regards to R1b1a2-M269, from the 2014 study.
Again comparing my post with the above papers 09-14-2012, 01:24 AM "L277and L584 are not exclusive to any group. They belong to a much larger family R-M269+ and L23+ 110+/- million Europeans "

Hopefully we will resolve R1b-M269 and L277, L584 origin from Levant-Middle East or Europe with more ancient samples.:)