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Volat
07-11-2017, 01:22 PM
How similar are these two groups of Europeans?

Both countries are next to each other. Both have historic relations. Both have similar size populations. Both eat similar cousin. Both speak similar languages. Both lived in the same state for centuries. Both ...

Belarusians stand out from Ukrainians and Poles despite historic ties and geographic proximity. Mazovians and Ukrainians of Chernihiv are exceptions.


Discuss!

George
07-11-2017, 03:24 PM
How similar are these two groups of Europeans?

Both countries are next to each other. Both have historic relations. Both have similar size populations. Both eat similar cousin. Both speak similar languages. Both lived in the same state for centuries. Both ...

Belarusians stand out from Ukrainians and Poles despite historic ties and geographic proximity. Mazovians and Ukrainians of Chernihiv are exceptions.


Discuss! I guess you mean "cuisine" not cousin? ��

George
07-11-2017, 03:31 PM
How similar are these two groups of Europeans?

Both countries are next to each other. Both have historic relations. Both have similar size populations. Both eat similar cousin. Both speak similar languages. Both lived in the same state for centuries. Both ...

Belarusians stand out from Ukrainians and Poles despite historic ties and geographic proximity. Mazovians and Ukrainians of Chernihiv are exceptions.


Discuss!. It would also be useful, eventually, as more and more aDna and post aDna become available to do specific "local" comparisons between the various groups of which both peoples are or were composed. The differences might have been more noticeable between such further back in time.

Tz85
07-11-2017, 04:21 PM
Well considering their both Slav, and basically rignt next to each other, i would say their very similar.

Tomenable
07-11-2017, 07:29 PM
We have strong ties with West Ukrainians, but weaker with East Ukrainians.

Tomenable
07-11-2017, 07:32 PM
Both eat similar cousin.

I guess you mean "cuisine" not cousin? ��

Maybe he really meant cousin?: ;)

http://i.imgur.com/iSe3Dbh.png

lgmayka
07-11-2017, 07:35 PM
How similar are these two groups of Europeans?
Southeastern Poland and western Ukraine appear to be rather close genetically.

On Gedmatch, my results for Eurogenes K13 Oracle Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.09
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 2.59
3 South_Polish 2.84
4 Polish 5.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.9% Ukrainian + 17.1% Croatian @ 1.57
2 92.2% Ukrainian + 7.8% Serbian @ 1.58
3 91.2% Ukrainian + 8.8% Austrian @ 1.6

Volat
07-11-2017, 09:17 PM
I guess you mean "cuisine" not cousin? ��

Yes! I meant cuisine. My English is not perfect. :)

Volat
07-11-2017, 09:32 PM
Galicia and western Podolia became part of Poland well before Lublin Union (1569).

Volat
07-11-2017, 09:35 PM
Ukrainians of Chernihiv should have been Belarusian. Ukrainians of Chernihiv are anthropologically similar to Belarusians and eastern Lithuanians. They even identified themselves "Litvin" (not to be confused with Baltic speaking Lithuanians) in the past. The rest of Ukrainians are as Poles or Russians (Donbass & Crimea).

Tomenable
07-12-2017, 02:05 AM
In Eastern Galicia (present-day Western Ukraine and parts of South-Eastern Poland) ethnic and national identity correlated with religion, with mainly Roman Catholics identifying as Poles and Greek Catholics usually as Ukrainians (there were even families in which siblings had different ethnic / national identities). Here is a map of Polish and Ukrainian (including Rusyns / Ruthenians) areas in 1900:

http://i.imgur.com/wZZBi9g.png

Political situation in the late 16th century:

https://s30.postimg.org/t43kxofi9/Ukraine_16th_century.png

Borders of I RP in year 1772 and of II RP between the World Wars:

http://i.imgur.com/HdvubqI.png

This is a very good book (below I post Table 4.45 from this book):

https://books.google.pl/books/about/Ethnic_Groups_and_Population_Changes_in.html?id=jL fX1q3kJzgC&redir_esc=y

http://i.imgur.com/9LMM7iD.png

George
07-12-2017, 02:22 AM
We have strong ties with West Ukrainians, but weaker with East Ukrainians.
At all sorts of lesser levels too.For instance my Ukrainian housekeeper's family also has your W6a MtDna. They are from Mostyska a few kilometers from the Polish-Ukrainian border.

George
07-12-2017, 02:25 AM
Maybe he really meant cousin?: ;)

http://i.imgur.com/iSe3Dbh.png

Don't tell me that's the secret homeland of the Slavs! 🙈

Tomenable
07-12-2017, 02:48 AM
At all sorts of lesser levels too.For instance my Ukrainian housekeeper's family also has your W6a MtDna. They are from Mostyska a few kilometers from the Polish-Ukrainian border.

Yes, W6a is typically Slavic, according to The Cid and Eupedia's articles about its distribution:

http://www.thecid.com

I also like how W6a is clearly connected with the PIE community, just look at ancient samples:

~3500-2700 BC, Yamnaya, Lopatino II
~3260-2630 BC, Corded Ware, Plinkaigalis
~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware, Esperstedt

Tomenable
07-12-2017, 03:23 AM
Lately there are a lot of (some 1,5 - 2 million) Ukrainian immigrants in Poland and we are getting along very well. Also in my area there are a lot of Ukrainian immigrants and war refugees.

If you read Polish:

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/wiadomosci/artykul/ukraincy-w-polsce,8,0,2304520.html

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/raporty/artykul/ukraincy-w-polsce-pobyt-staly-praca-emigracja,92,0,2202972.html

http://wschodnik.pl/ukraina/item/11105-ilu-ukraincow-wyjechalo-do-pracy-w-polsce.html


Z badań przeprowadzonych przez Dom Badawczy Maison w styczniu 2016 na zlecenie ZPP wynika, że aż 52 proc. Polaków pozytywnie odnosi się do przyznania stałego pobytu Ukraińcom przebywającym w Polsce. Przeciwnego zdania jest 28 proc. badanych. Sympatia wydaje się obopólna, bo deklaruje ją aż 79 proc. mieszkańców zachodniej Ukrainy. (...) Przebywający w Polsce Ukraińcy są często bardzo dobrze wykształceni. 64 proc. z nich jest po szkołach wyższych i średnich, co jest dużą wartością dla naszej gospodarki.

Volat
07-12-2017, 04:16 AM
Lately there are a lot of (some 1,5 - 2 million) Ukrainian immigrants in Poland and we are getting along very well. Also in my area there are a lot of Ukrainian immigrants and war refugees.

If you read Polish:

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/wiadomosci/artykul/ukraincy-w-polsce,8,0,2304520.html

http://www.money.pl/gospodarka/raporty/artykul/ukraincy-w-polsce-pobyt-staly-praca-emigracja,92,0,2202972.html

http://wschodnik.pl/ukraina/item/11105-ilu-ukraincow-wyjechalo-do-pracy-w-polsce.html

The largest number of foreign workers in Poland maybe from Ukraine.



The Sejm of Poland on Thursday passed a new bill related to popularization of employment and labor market institutions, amending the law on temporary employment of foreigners, the Polish Radio has reported.
According to the publication, the legislative amendments introduce the fee (PLN 30) for the registration of applications of employers who want to hire foreigners.
The bill concerns foreigners who are carrying out long-term works in Poland. These are citizens of Armenia, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine and Russia who will be able to use the relaxed labor market access rules.
According to the amendments to the law, along with job permits issued by governors of regions for the period of up to three years, the permits for seasonal work will be issued by district heads (for the period of up to eight months during a calendar year).
The register of hired foreigners will be created.

http://open4business.com.ua/polish-sejm-relaxes-seasonal-employment-rules-ukrainians/


According to official statistics number of foreign workers in Poland in 2016

Ukrainians - 611 thousands
Moldovans - 9 thousands
Belarusians 7.9 thousands
http://belchas.by/news/rabota-za-granitcei-v-kakikh-stranakh-zhdut-rabotnikov-iz-belarusi.html

Aha
07-14-2017, 07:07 AM
Ukrainians of Chernihiv should have been Belarusian. Ukrainians of Chernihiv are anthropologically similar to Belarusians and eastern Lithuanians. They even identified themselves "Litvin" (not to be confused with Baltic speaking Lithuanians) in the past. The rest of Ukrainians are as Poles or Russians (Donbass & Crimea).

Not of Chernihiv, but of the borderline villages of the Chernihiv region. And by your logic, Belarusians of Brest region should have been Ukrainian. Lets not delve into the should territory. As for Poles and russians - that's even a weirder statement

Volat
07-14-2017, 07:23 AM
Not of Chernihiv, but of the borderline villages of the Chernihiv region. And by your logic, Belarusians of Brest region should have been Ukrainian. Lets not delve into the should territory. As for Poles and russians - that's even a weirder statement

The census of 1897 accounted for language rather than ethnic identity. Back then the dialect of western Poleshuk was considered as part Malorosian (Ukrainian) dialect which is not the case as stated by several linguists. I was not talking about entire Chernihiv region, but rather certain districts of Chernihiv region. Of course the territories won't be transfered because people of Chernihiv identify themselves Ukrainians today. The same goes for the Poleshuks on both sides of the border. Poleshuks of Ukrainian Polesie are Ukrainians, while Poleshuks of Belarusian Polesie are Belarusians.

Aha
07-14-2017, 07:50 AM
As for my personal impressions and experience - Poles and Ukrainians by their values, culture and language closer to each other than to russians. The only exception might be Donbas and other places with heavy russian minorities.

lukaszM
07-16-2017, 05:11 PM
The largest number of foreign workers in Poland maybe from Ukraine.




According to official statistics number of foreign workers in Poland in 2016

Ukrainians - 611 thousands
Moldovans - 9 thousands
Belarusians 7.9 thousands
http://belchas.by/news/rabota-za-granitcei-v-kakikh-stranakh-zhdut-rabotnikov-iz-belarusi.html

You know official stats for foreigh workers are always biased.

Volat
07-16-2017, 10:10 PM
You know official stats for foreigh workers are always biased.

They maybe not accurate. Probably, there are more foreign workers who are employed illegally. How else we can estimate the figures if not referencing the official sources?

lukaszM
07-19-2017, 07:10 PM
They maybe not accurate. Probably, there are more foreign workers who are employed illegally. How else we can estimate the figures if not referencing the official sources?

But we have plenty of estimated unofficial in newspapers or TV. It's really about 1,5 to 2 mln. And I think personally more woman than man.

Rethel
07-19-2017, 09:25 PM
Does anybody here speak ukrainian?

Volat
07-19-2017, 09:31 PM
Does anybody here speak ukrainian?
I can speak Ukrainian. Forum member @Aha can also speak Ukrainian.

Rethel
07-19-2017, 09:37 PM
So tell me what did he say after "sumyłsja zrobity", actually four last words...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZmF-TYCxz0&feature=youtu.be&t=1m40s

George
07-19-2017, 09:52 PM
So tell me what did he say after "sumyłsja zrobity", actually four last words...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZmF-TYCxz0&feature=youtu.be&t=1m40s

After "zumiv tse zrobyty" the old gentleman added that R. Sh. possessed a great talent for this (i.e the creation of a partisan army) and then he (the speaker) collapsed and died...

Rethel
07-19-2017, 09:53 PM
After "zumiv tse zrobyty" the old gentleman added that R. Sh. possessed a great talent for this (i.e the creation of a partisan army) and then he (the speaker) collapsed and died...

Can you write it?

George
07-19-2017, 10:05 PM
Can you write it?

"Vin mav do ts'oho velykyj khyst"...

Rethel
07-19-2017, 10:09 PM
"Vin mav do ts'oho velykyj khyst"...

But in normal alphabet :D
I wanted to compare words.

Volat
07-19-2017, 10:15 PM
But in normal alphabet :D
I wanted to compare words.

In normal alphabet it would be він мав до цього великий хист

Rethel
07-19-2017, 10:49 PM
In normal alphabet it would be він мав до цього великий хист


Ok, thanx :)

AlexRus
07-03-2018, 08:14 PM
The culture of Ukraine has more in common with the Turks than with Poland. Anthropologically more similar to Ukrainian, Moldovan and Romanian, than to East Slavic. Black Ukrainian population has nothing to do with the North-European Poles or Russians

Coldmountains
07-03-2018, 10:08 PM
The culture of Ukraine has more in common with the Turks than with Poland. Anthropologically more similar to Ukrainian, Moldovan and Romanian, than to East Slavic. Black Ukrainian population has nothing to do with the North-European Poles or Russians

Genetically and phenotypically South Poles and Ukrainians cluster together and are hard to distinguish. Culturally Ukrainians are "rural East Slavs" and i would describe them as "Bavarians " of Rus

AlexRus
07-04-2018, 07:44 AM
Genetically and phenotypically South Poles and Ukrainians cluster together and are hard to distinguish. Culturally Ukrainians are "rural East Slavs" and i would describe them as "Bavarians " of Rus

It is a myth
Not only Ukrainians, but also Russians and Belarusians have an autosomal similarity with the Poles. Autosomes of the Poles are located on the site of the Eastern Slavs. Look at the photo of a group of Ukrainians:
d.radikal.ru/d38/1807/b5/18b2cc00ce4f.jpg
I think that the genetics of Ukrainians is not understood.

Ukrainian boxer, Vitaliy Shabansky
b.radikal.ru/b09/1807/55/5217333e37ea.jpg
Ukrainian boxer, Vitali Klitschko
d.radikal.ru/d42/1807/0a/2da5bd535009.jpg


Russian photos:
Russian ММА Fighter Sergey Kharitonov (Russian North from Arkhangelsk)
c.radikal.ru/c10/1807/ce/d2ecac9dff6c.jpg
Russian MMA fighter Alexander Volkov (Russian center from Moscow)
c.radikal.ru/c28/1807/f1/2f2551b2faa2.jpg
Russian boxer Dmitry Kudryashovkov (Russian South)
a.radikal.ru/a25/1807/75/6792586d957e.jpg

who looks like a Polish?? Ukrainians or Russians?

Coldmountains
07-04-2018, 09:45 AM
It is a myth
Not only Ukrainians, but also Russians and Belarusians have an autosomal similarity with the Poles. Autosomes of the Poles are located on the site of the Eastern Slavs. Look at the photo of a group of Ukrainians:
d.radikal.ru/d38/1807/b5/18b2cc00ce4f.jpg
I think that the genetics of Ukrainians is not understood.

Ukrainian boxer, Vitaliy Shabansky
b.radikal.ru/b09/1807/55/5217333e37ea.jpg
Ukrainian boxer, Vitali Klitschko
d.radikal.ru/d42/1807/0a/2da5bd535009.jpg


Russian photos:
Russian ММА Fighter Sergey Kharitonov (Russian North from Arkhangelsk)
c.radikal.ru/c10/1807/ce/d2ecac9dff6c.jpg
Russian MMA fighter Alexander Volkov (Russian center from Moscow)
c.radikal.ru/c28/1807/f1/2f2551b2faa2.jpg
Russian boxer Dmitry Kudryashovkov (Russian South)
a.radikal.ru/a25/1807/75/6792586d957e.jpg

who looks like a Polish?? Ukrainians or Russians?

Some pictures of boxers are not really proving much. They could very much be cherrypicked... I was often in Russia and Ukraine and neither Russians nor Ukrainians look "nordic". There are many "pure" ethnic russians, who would pass as Balkan Slavs or even some cases as Albanians/Romanians/Bulgarians. But the amount of southern phenotypes is definitely higher in Ukraine and especially in southwestern Ukraine (mixed with Vlachs,...). Ukrainians look much more similar to Poles than Russians. But i am talking about the facial structure and not about the skin or hair colour. Ukrainians and Poles are also more brachycephalic than Russians.

AlexRus
07-04-2018, 01:08 PM
Ukrainians do not look like Poles. Russians do not look like Poles. The Poles are like the Poles. Russians have almost no southern types. Ukrainians of southern dark types have 70-80%. I showed a group photo of Ukrainian nationalists who consider themselves to be the highest race. Therefore, my subjective selectivity is excluded. Ukrainians tend to Romanians and Moldovans, and not to Poles and Russians.

The northern type in the east of Europe is not only East Nordid, but also Baltid. Blue and gray eyes, blond hair, straight nose, but the height of the face is lower than that of the Germans, even in the Eastern Norid. The facial features of the Slavs are less rude (correctly in English?). If you are used to the Western Nordic type or Scandinavian, then the Eastern Northern types will be unusual for you.

In Russia there are more than 100 nationalities. You were in Russia, most likely in Moscow or St. Petersburg. In large metropolitan areas a very mixed population. You could meet Mordva, Moldavian, Ukrainian and Caucasian and Uzbek as well as a mixture. If I look at the French as Paris, I will think that more than half of the French from Africa.

A full-blooded Russian almost never looks like Moldavian or Balkan, NEVER. And the majority are full-blooded in Russia. The Russian southern type is Pontid, very rarely. Most often the Russians have a northern origin Corded Ware, anthropological type Baltid and East Nordid. This is the point of view of Russian anthropologists - Alekseyev VP and his wife Alexeyeva. TI, Bunak V.V and others.

JerryS.
07-04-2018, 05:09 PM
I figure Poland was closer to Belarus ethnically.

Alain
07-05-2018, 01:45 PM
Although you can define the Slavic type but there are different types an example my dad a darker type thick black stiff hair and dark eyes myself dark blond and gray-eyed eyes.Es are so many peoples passed in Eastern Europe but nevertheless autosomal predominate Slavic and Baltic but there are also little influences from Turkic peoples, steppe area south Ukraina - Russia and Volg-Ural area(rider nomads) but also meditierane peoples and uralic peoples influence from west -central and North Europe Celts, Teutons, Viking(Kiever Rus) .Man finds Nordid, Pontidid, Baltid, Meditieran and mix between these groups

Mixed
07-05-2018, 03:00 PM
I think out of all my genetics I am proudest of my Russian ones. I have also made contact with Russian relatives over the past few years and they all seemed like good people and you can see a lot of physical similarities.

AlexRus
07-05-2018, 07:44 PM
Although you can define the Slavic type but there are different types an example my dad a darker type thick black stiff hair and dark eyes myself dark blond and gray-eyed eyes.Es are so many peoples passed in Eastern Europe but nevertheless autosomal predominate Slavic and Baltic but there are also little influences from Turkic peoples, steppe area south Ukraina - Russia and Volg-Ural area(rider nomads) but also meditierane peoples and uralic peoples influence from west -central and North Europe Celts, Teutons, Viking(Kiever Rus) .Man finds Nordid, Pontidid, Baltid, Meditieran and mix between these groups

A small mixture of Vikings - there is only the Russian north and the Volga region. Before the city of Kiev, the Vikings almost did not get. Russian tribes - Krivichi, Vyatichi, Siver lived in the forest zone, so the Russians and the Turks did not mix. Slavic tribes mixed in the center of Russia and in the south of Russia with Balts - Golinds, and in the north of Russia and the Volga region with Finns, Balts and Scandinavians. Ukrainians lived on the border of the steppe and had a Turkic mixture, but this did not affect autosomes. I think that the Turks of Ukraine were genetically similar to the Turks Gagauz, who have European genetics. Therefore, Ukrainians practically do not have the genetics of Asian Turks. The Turks of Eastern Europe themselves have become Europeans.

Silesian
07-05-2018, 08:41 PM
Although you can define the Slavic type but there are different types an example my dad a darker type thick black stiff hair and dark eyes myself dark blond and gray-eyed eyes.Es are so many peoples passed in Eastern Europe but nevertheless autosomal predominate Slavic and Baltic but there are also little influences from Turkic peoples, steppe area south Ukraina - Russia and Volg-Ural area(rider nomads) but also meditierane peoples and uralic peoples influence from west -central and North Europe Celts, Teutons, Viking(Kiever Rus) .Man finds Nordid, Pontidid, Baltid, Meditieran and mix between these groups

Sounds like me. The in house pca plot by ph2ter. Where does he plot on Eurogenes K15? [I'm Sileisan on the plot+Silesians Father]


https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24436&d=1530781286

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=24349

Alain
07-05-2018, 10:14 PM
A small mixture of Vikings - there is only the Russian north and the Volga region. Before the city of Kiev, the Vikings almost did not get. Russian tribes - Krivichi, Vyatichi, Siver lived in the forest zone, so the Russians and the Turks did not mix. Slavic tribes mixed in the center of Russia and in the south of Russia with Balts - Golinds, and in the north of Russia and the Volga region with Finns, Balts and Scandinavians. Ukrainians lived on the border of the steppe and had a Turkic mixture, but this did not affect autosomes. I think that the Turks of Ukraine were genetically similar to the Turks Gagauz, who have European genetics. Therefore, Ukrainians practically do not have the genetics of Asian Turks. The Turks of Eastern Europe themselves have become Europeans.

Thank you that is clear that the Slavic and Baltic predominates and the Turkish admixture low or hardly, For example, the Scythian are quickly absorbed in the early Slavs are not Relevant since they occur today in Volga Tatars or Chuvash (autosomal)

kosmonomad
07-06-2018, 01:01 PM
I figure Poland was closer to Belarus ethnically.

Not really. They always been Eastern Slavic. What is more interesting, they seem to be, in a great part, the descendants of the Milograd culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milograd_culture. I suspect they must have been quite isolationist since then.
I have a small interest in this, because my own lineage may have been a part of that culture or the closest neigbours to the North.

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 10:08 AM
Southeastern Poland and western Ukraine appear to be rather close genetically.

On Gedmatch, my results for Eurogenes K13 Oracle Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 2.09
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 2.59
3 South_Polish 2.84
4 Polish 5.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.9% Ukrainian + 17.1% Croatian @ 1.57
2 92.2% Ukrainian + 7.8% Serbian @ 1.58
3 91.2% Ukrainian + 8.8% Austrian @ 1.6

Davidski says that his "Ukrainian" sample is from North-Western Ukraine (so Volyn Oblast and Rivne Oblast, I guess?).

There is also Ukrainian_Belgorod, this one represents North-Eastern Ukrainians, and they are very different genetically.

George
09-03-2018, 05:05 PM
Davidski says that his "Ukrainian" sample is from North-Western Ukraine (so Volyn Oblast and Rivne Oblast, I guess?).

There is also Ukrainian_Belgorod, this one represents North-Eastern Ukrainians, and they are very different genetically.

Genetics is a pretty curious science. It seems that Mayka (ethnic and cultural Pole) is slightly closer to both Ukrainians and Poles than I am (ethnic and cultural Ukrainian).


My Eurogenes 13 figures are:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 3.67
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 3.98
3 South_Polish 5.55
4 Polish 6.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.2% Estonian Pole + 18.8% Greek (Thessaly) 18.8% @ 2.56
2 88.2% Estonian Pole + 11.8% Sardinian @ 2.6


There is clearly both a northern and southern pull of sorts. In another Davidski test, my closest relatives were actually Estonians... My families (both father's and mother's segments) can be traced back in Western Ukraine (Galicia) for nearly 500 years paperwise. We have the occasional Polish input (most noticeable a 2nd great grandmother Henrietta (she was a Galician Pole) and an exotic great grandmother who migrated to Galicia in the mid-19th century from Syria (she was an Eastern Catholic). That could explain some of the percentages involving Saudi, Yemenite and similar input (and there is a remaining trace in the X chromosome!) But the strong "northern pull" (also evident in my 23 & me results) is not obviously explained in the paper trail. All I can think of is the possibility of some input from northern colonizers of Galicia brought into the later Galicia by Volodymyr and his successors after the near total annihilation of pagan Croatia at the end of the 10th century...But that would be shared by other Galicians of my ilk. So maybe there is an even more recent explanation.

Geborgenheit
09-03-2018, 06:00 PM
An interesting thread until it has been hijacked by our Russian friends.

Some said mtDNA W was true Slavic. Why ? Only H is true Slavic-Germanic-Celtic-Latin :amen: :)

I am not western Ukrainian, but Central and South Ukrainian, my Eurogenes 13 oracle:

1 Ukrainian 4.86
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 5.23
3 Southwest_Russian 5.67
4 Ukrainian_Belgorod 6.59
5 South_Polish 6.61
6 Croatian 7.92
7 Polish 8
...

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 06:06 PM
I am not western Ukrainian, but Central and South Ukrainian

South Ukraine has been settled by people from the north in the 1500s-1800s and later.

Before that it was very sparsely populated (see "Dzikie Pola") and mostly by Non-Slavs.

Geborgenheit
09-03-2018, 06:14 PM
Before that it was very sparsely populated (see "Dzikie Pola") and mostly by Non-Slavs.

Wiem to. :)

Still, my results show nothing unusual.

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 06:19 PM
There is a good series of publications called "Atlas Historyczny Polski XVI wieku" ("Historical Atlas of 16th century Poland"), it has maps and estimates of population size (based on tax censuses mainly) for each voivodeship for years ca. 1570-1580. It is only about the Crown (no Grand Duchy of Lithuania). Here are estimates of population size (around 1570-1580) in Ukrainian voivodeships that I collected from these publications:

Ruskie - RUS - 642.734 inhabitants
Chełmskie - CHŁ - 100.101 inhabitants
Bełskie - BEŁ - 92.314 inhabitants
Wołyńskie - WOŁ - 293.780 (low estimate*)
Podolskie - POD - 97.736 (low estimate*)
Bracławskie - BRC - 311.340 (low estimate*)
Kijowskie - KIJ - 234.040 (low estimate*)
Chernihiv Voivodeship - no data so far

*These are low estimates because the method used was slightly different than in case of estimates for other voivodeships.

Map with abbreviations for each voivodeship:

https://i.imgur.com/ZOAsHV1.png

Estimates for the rest of voivodeships from "Atlas...":

Malborskie - MB - 55.032 inhabitants
Pomorskie - POM - 147.565 inhabitants
Chełmińskie - CHM - 94.706 inhabitants
Podlaskie - PDL - 247.225 inhabitants
Mazowieckie - MAZ - 514.900 inhabitants
Płockie - PŁ - 146.000 inhabitants
Rawskie - RW - 138.700 inhabitants
Inowrocławskie - INW - 105.300 inhabitants
Brzeskie - BRZ - 114.600 inhabitants
Kaliskie - KAL - 314.800 inhabitants
Poznańskie - POZ - 276.700 inhabitants
Łęczyckie - ŁCZ - 140.800 inhabitants
Sieradzkie - SIE - 223.000 inhabitants
Sandomierskie - SAN - 517.100 inhabitants
Lubelskie - LUB - 184.100 inhabitants
Krakowskie - KRA - 476.400 inhabitants

For Warmia and Ducal Prussia I used other sources:

Warmia - WM - 90.000 (estimate for year 1626)
Ducal Prussia - 360.000 (estimate for year 1626)
Lębork-Bytów Lands - LB - no data so far
Duchy of Siewierz - SW - no data so far

=====

Edit:

For parts of modern Poland that were not part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:

1. Silesia (estimates after W. Dziewulski):

Year 1577 - 1.252.445 (of which ca. 30% in Upper Silesia)
Year 1618 - 1.565.556
Year 1648 - 1.040.000 (losses due to Thirty Years' War**)
Year 1742 - 1.500.000

**Lower Silesia suffered higher losses (see the map): http://i.imgur.com/7vRY2ce.jpg

There are also alternative estimates for Silesia with smaller numbers (ca. 1 million in 1618).

2. West Pomorze (Hinterpommern):

Year 1600 - about 300.000 (estimate by J. A. Gierowski)

Geborgenheit
09-03-2018, 06:49 PM
Ruskie - RUS - 642.734 inhabitants
Chełmskie - CHŁ - 100.101 inhabitants
Bełskie - BEŁ - 92.314 inhabitants
Wołyńskie - WOŁ - 293.780 (low estimate*)
Podolskie - POD - 97.736 (low estimate*)
Bracławskie - BRC - 311.340 (low estimate*)
Kijowskie - KIJ - 234.040 (low estimate*)
Chernihiv Voivodeship - no data so far


Some of my ancestors were from Bracławskie Voivodeship... A bit surprising it had more inhabitants than the huge Kijowskie Voivodeship.

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 06:53 PM
A bit surprising it had more inhabitants than the huge Kijowskie Voivodeship.

Yes. It seems that much of Central Ukraine was also sparsely populated during the 1500s.

But between 1570 and 1648 there was considerable population increase there, AFAIK.

Wisniowiecki for example was colonizing his lands with settlers from more western areas.

What about Sloboda Ukraine, how many inhabitants could it have around year 1600?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloboda_Ukraine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Sloboda_Ukr.png/800px-Sloboda_Ukr.png

^^^
Ukrainian_Belgorod probably represents average genetics of Sloboda Ukraine in general.

Tomenable
09-03-2018, 07:02 PM
But maybe in Kijowskie there was also a large number of people who were unaccounted for in those tax censuses.

lukaszM
09-03-2018, 08:07 PM
There is a good series of publications called "Atlas Historyczny Polski XVI wieku" ("Historical Atlas of 16th century Poland"), it has maps and estimates of population size (based on tax censuses mainly) for each voivodeship for years ca. 1570-1580. It is only about the Crown (no Grand Duchy of Lithuania). Here are estimates of population size (around 1570-1580) in Ukrainian voivodeships that I collected from these publications:


https://i.imgur.com/ZOAsHV1.png



Map reminds me strategic game on Commodore:)

Camulogčne Rix
09-03-2018, 08:35 PM
There is a good series of publications called "Atlas Historyczny Polski XVI wieku" ("Historical Atlas of 16th century Poland"), it has maps and estimates of population size (based on tax censuses mainly) for each voivodeship for years ca. 1570-1580. It is only about the Crown (no Grand Duchy of Lithuania).

Map with abbreviations for each voivodeship:

https://i.imgur.com/ZOAsHV1.png



Does this historical map match the breakdown of religions too?
yellow: Lutherans, orange: Roman Catholics, dark green: Greek Catholics, green: Orthodoxs

Tomenable
09-04-2018, 07:13 AM
Does this historical map match the breakdown of religions too?
yellow: Lutherans, orange: Roman Catholics, dark green: Greek Catholics, green: Orthodoxs

No, this does not match so perfectly. For example Upper Silesia = Roman Catholics.

Tomenable
09-09-2018, 05:05 PM
There is a good series of publications called "Atlas Historyczny Polski XVI wieku" ("Historical Atlas of 16th century Poland"), it has maps and estimates of population size (based on tax censuses mainly) for each voivodeship for years ca. 1570-1580. It is only about the Crown (no Grand Duchy of Lithuania). Here are estimates of population size (around 1570-1580) in Ukrainian voivodeships that I collected from these publications:

Ruskie - RUS - 642.734 inhabitants
Chełmskie - CHŁ - 100.101 inhabitants
Bełskie - BEŁ - 92.314 inhabitants
Wołyńskie - WOŁ - 293.780 (low estimate*)
Podolskie - POD - 97.736 (low estimate*)
Bracławskie - BRC - 311.340 (low estimate*)
Kijowskie - KIJ - 234.040 (low estimate*)

Revised (higher) estimates for WOŁ and POD in years 1570-1580, published in 1933 (later than low estimates quoted above):

Wołyńskie - WOŁ - 441,000 inhabitants
Podolskie - POD - 147,000 inhabitants

This would increase the total to ca. 2 million people in year 1580 (including Red Ruthenian voivodeships).

I also found estimates for KIJ and BRC for year 1640 (from "Dzieje Ukrainy" by Leszek Podhorodecki):

Bracławskie - BRC - 400,000 inhabitants
Kijowskie - KIJ - 450,000 inhabitants

==========

Somewhere else, but I forgot where, I also found these estimates for all Ukrainian lands combined:

Year 1400 - ca. 1 million people
Year 1569 - ca. 2 million people (100% increase during 169 years)
Year 1648 - ca. 5 million people (150% increase during 79 years) - this estimate might be too high

I guess at least for 1648 it must include entire area of modern Ukraine, not just PLC-controlled part.

==========

Some estimates from the late 18th and early 19th centuries for Russian-controlled parts of Ukraine:

Plater's estimates:

Stanisław Plater in his book from 1825 gives (numbers represent the situation around year 1820):

Numbers in thousands
RC = Roman Catholics

Volhynia Governorate - 1300 (ca. 900 Ukrainians, Poles: 100 nobles & townsmen + 100 RC peasants, 200 Jews)
Podolia Governorate - 1450 (ca. 870 Ukrainians, Poles: 110 nobles & townsmen + 200 RC peasants, 220 Jews, 50 Armenians & Moldavians)
Kiev Governorate - 1100 (ca. 850 Ukrainians, Poles: 100 nobles & townsmen, 150 Jews)

Total for right-bank Ukraine:

3,850,000 including 68% Ukrainians, Poles (8% nobles & townsmen + 8% RC peasants), 15% Jews, 1% Armenians & Moldavians

Kabuzan's estimates:

Kabuzan gives similar population size (a bit lower but it is for year 1795), but different ethnic data:

Right-bank Ukraine in 1795 according to Kabuzan - 3,422,000 inhabitants, including:

3,006,000 Ukrainians (but he counted all Roman Catholic peasants as Ukrainians)
266,000 Poles-nobles* (he counted most of nobility as Poles but just nobility, he didn't acknowledge Polish Roman Catholic commoners)
124,000 Jews (this is the biggest difference, according to Kabuzan Jews were only 4%, Plater estimated them to be as much as 15%)
20,000 Romanians (equivalent of Moldavians from Plater)
4,000 Russians
2,000 others

*This number also seems too low, the number of nobility there was at least 135,330 males (x2 to add women).

In left-bank Ukraine (all of it Russian since 1667) Kabuzan counted 3,354,400 people in 1795, including:

175,200 Russians
3,121,600 Ukrainians
43,900 Belarusians (for previous period, mid-1700s, he counted 56,300 Belarusians here, more than in 1795)
1,300 Germans
10,500 Jews
1,900 others (for previous period, mid-1700s, he counted in this area 7,000 others, so more than in 1795)

He did not count any Poles even though it is known that for example there was a Polish community in Kiev.

Tomenable
09-10-2018, 12:23 AM
Sloboda Ukraine

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...zhanshchyna.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Ukraine-Slobozhanshchyna.png)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Sloboda_Ukr.png/600px-Sloboda_Ukr.png

Yedisan (Turkish since 1526):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Ukraine-Edisan.png/600px-Ukraine-Edisan.png

Dzikie Pola (Wild Fields):

https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/321...atus-lit-cluver (https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/32131/veteris-et-novae-regni-poloniae-magniq-ducatus-lit-cluver)

https://i.imgur.com/G2BlJ8m.png

Nogay Hordes (Ordy):

http://nogai.blogspot.com/2014/04/nogay-on-ordalari-bati-nogaylari.html

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bFGPTCGjraU/W2DXRKZHX0I/AAAAAAAAFJM/PZmaCHfLjnwPVMxBSukSuJCHwOwy_Ix0gCLcBGAs/s640/bat%25C4%25B1%2Bnogay%2Bordalar%25C4%25B1.jpg

^^^
Some of them are younger than the 1400s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budzhak_Horde

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak