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View Full Version : R1-M458 - could it be spread by Sauromats and Alans?



Rethel
07-12-2017, 03:39 PM
1. M458 is widly spread in Central and Eastern Europe. Could be even a remain of Cordeds.
2. Small clades scattered across whole Europe suggest that it is pre-slavic hg.
3. Only two clades are main, but they are +/- 2000 years old, so potentially, only they could be slavic.
4. Rest is very doubtfull.
5. The oldest clades are find in such places like Wales, Sardinia, Kosovo, Balkaria and Vyat'ka.
6. One in Poland of unknown origin, and mine which actually is not from Poland, but from the West.
It could be from the Brandenburgia, Swabia/Bavaria or even Latium/Apulia or something between.
7. So I belive, that M458 is rather of preslavic origin in general, and these examples could be
spread even in deep antiquity, for example with first IE migrations or by many other possibilites,
like the Goths, Völkerwanderung, relocations of people during Roman period, slave trade, single
personal migrations, even with Vikings (where Slavs were as well) and so on, many events fit
to almost all of that distant locations.
8. But lastly I started wondering if this could not be spreaded by Sauromatians and/or Alanians.
9. Why? Becasue:

a) High frequences of M458 are outside of core slavic lands like caucasian Karachays (27,5%),
Balkars (23,5%) where is one of the oldest clades probably close to mine, 7,8% among Black
(Kara)Nogays, 3,4% among Abazins -also from the northern Caucasus.

b) And these generally are former lands of Alania. It is quite unprobable, that all of it is from
Russians, especially, that M458 is not their main clade, and that caucasian nations are quite
hermetic groups, not happy about mixing with others (at least they claim such thing).

c) Traditionaly part of Slavs is descendning from Sauromatians, and even historically it is/was
quite serious possibility and hypothesy. Lastly was even found scythian settlement in Poland,
so later sauromatian influence, combined with serbian and croatian potential sauromatianess,
can explain easly, why M458 is spread among Slavs.

d) Even this guy from Viat'ka not necessarly has to be originaly from Slavs, becasue that area
(or at least it's direct southern neighbours) was settled by Sauromatians when they existed.

e) M458 on Sardinia, can be also easly explain by patricipation of Alans in Vandalian Kingdom in
northern Africa, which did include in it's realm also the Sardinia island... It can also explain totaly
hypothetical origin of mine from Italy, based on onomastic ties and historical timing.

f) Guy from Wales can be also easly explained, especially by these who did watch "King Arthur"
2004 :) But historically it was confirmed that some Sauromatians did serve as militaries in Britain.

g) Guy from Kosovo could be a remains of such romanized Sauromatians or
came with Serbs - who are consider in their past as sarmatian subtribe per
se, and in addition trace back themselves from... Caucasus...

h) Guy from Poland - a remains of Serbs, Croats or other "polish" slavicized Sauromatians.

10.So, what do you think about such possibility?

parasar
07-12-2017, 07:56 PM
Huns, Alans, Goths, all possible I think, with the Huns being the driving force.
It is often difficult to tell them apart.

Kuzmosi
09-03-2017, 04:26 PM
Rethel!

It may be easy for you to be right. I already thought about it (my mother's father (Kalenyak)was R1-M458 too)

Three of today's ethnicity would surely alan descendant. The ossets is the Caucasus Russia and Georgia.
The jasz people in Hungary
and the jagnobi people in Tajikistan.

I dont know how common between them the R1-M458, but I'm trying to look at it.

Rethel
09-25-2017, 05:19 PM
and the jagnobi people in Tajikistan.

Why Yangobis?

Kuzmosi
09-26-2017, 03:20 PM
Because they speak Scythian or Sarmatian language, and they are alan decensdants.

Rethel
10-15-2017, 02:02 PM
A Map provided by Silesian here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8444-Groch-z-kapust&%23261;&p=291020&viewfull=1#post291020) of Alan and Sarmatian settlements in northern Italy.

http://www.marres.nl/afb/Vestigingen%20Noord-Italie.jpg

Silesian
10-15-2017, 04:16 PM
1. M458 is widly spread in Central and Eastern Europe. Could be even a remain of Cordeds.

10.So, what do you think about such possibility?

For the first time I had a look at the M458 tree, maybe there is a good chance you are on to something. For example here is R1a that caught my eye R-YP1364*
[R-YP6048Y32110 * YP6048 TMRCA 1350 ybpinfo
-id:YF10709HUN [HU-JN] If any matches come in from Ossetians IMO good chance. R1b in Poland and Hungarian Jászság DN has this signature TMRCA.
The Chinese one is also interesting, could be great prospect.
R-FGC66325FGC66325 * FGC66342 * FGC66336+2 SNPs, TMRCA 1500 ybpinfo
id:YF10484CHN [CN-11]
id:YF06604POL [PL-MA]
https://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/

Rethel
10-15-2017, 06:08 PM
My closest matches look like that.
It seems to be too much widly spread to be of slavic origin - even if
theoretically could be - especially, that we splitted from the M458*
at the begining - 3000 years BEFORE Slavs were known to the World.
All places could fit to Cordeds, Sarmatians, Goths and maybe others.


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67766&d=1506184650

Michał
10-15-2017, 06:55 PM
My closest matches look like that.
[/img]
Your map includes some incorrect data. The Sardinian M458 lineage belongs to clade PF7521, so it is as distantly related to you as all remaining PF7521 lineages, including those from huge Slavic clades CTS11962 and L260, among others, so there is nothing that would make those Sardinians from subclade PF6188 your "closest matches". Also, there is currently no data that would demonstrate that the M458(xPF7521) lineage from Wales is more closely related to you than all those numerous Slavic lineages from clades CTS11962 and L260.

Silesian
10-15-2017, 07:38 PM
My closest matches look like that.
It seems to be too much widly spread to be of slavic origin - even if
theoretically could be - especially, that we splitted from the M458*
at the begining - 3000 years BEFORE Slavs were known to the World.
All places could fit to Cordeds, Sarmatians, Goths and maybe others.


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=67766&d=1506184650
Good work brother!
Keep in mind this is speculation. However the following R1a and R1b snps are parallel TMRCA to our branch [Mis and myself of R1b-593/9219+] and found in the same regions known for Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans. It would be interesting if they did not both[ R1a and R1b] originate in ancient kurgans further East around the Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans ancient home lands around Ossetians.
https://yfull.com/tree/R-M458/
It will be important to know your snp.
For example -R1a-snp's 300-600 AD+/- from Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County by yfull.
R-YP6048 Y32110 * TMRCA 1350 ybpinfo id:YF10709HUN [HU-JN]
R-YP1364, TMRCA 1700 ybpinfoR-YP1364*id:YF10038HUN [HU-JN]
Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok County and Jászberény, Hungary
R1b-Z2103 parallel branch Jászberény, Hungary https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag?iframe=ymap
https://tools.wmflabs.org/geohack/geohack.php?pagename=J%C3%A1sz-Nagykun-Szolnok_County&params=47_15_N_20_30_E_region:HU_type:adm1st
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1sz-Nagykun-Szolnok_County

The county is named after the Ossetians (Jasz) and Cumans (Kun) who settled there, along with Szolnok.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szber%C3%A9ny

Around 400 to 300 B.C. traces of Celtic people coming from the west are found in the Jászság.[4] Celtic graveyards were found near Jászberény at Hajta and Jászjákohalma.[4] During the first century A.D. Iatzygic tribes migrated from Sarmatia to the later Jászság.[4] After being defeated by the Romans during the Marcomannic Wars, the Iazyges paid tribute to Rome and they became a part of the Roman border-defence at the Limes Sarmatiae. Their settlements can be still found during the invasion of the Huns in the 5th century A.D.[4] In the middle of the 6th. century, Eurasian Avars began to settle the Jász-region who in turn were pushed away around 895 by the immigrating Hungarians.[4]

Look for clues of R1a M458 Scythian/Sarmatian/Alan/around Ribchester. Brother clade of R1b-9219+.
As for Hungary here are the Roman defensive lines.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Limes4-en.png

Mis
10-15-2017, 07:53 PM
@Pan Michał
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults
Jest Pan w stanie coś powiedź o r1a

Rethel
10-15-2017, 09:28 PM
Your map includes some incorrect data. The Sardinian M458 lineage belongs to clade PF7521, so it is as distantly related to you as all remaining PF7521 lineages, including those from huge Slavic clades CTS11962 and L260,

Yet half of year ago was close :)


among others, so there is nothing that would make those Sardinians from subclade PF6188 your "closest matches". Also, there is currently no data that would demonstrate that the M458(xPF7521) lineage from Wales is more closely related to you than all those numerous Slavic lineages from clades CTS11962 and L260.

Still is placed like that, and even if not, then is a good ilustraion how small clades of main hg are scattered.

Michał
10-15-2017, 10:52 PM
Yet half of year ago was close :)

No it wasn't. :)
Last year in November, I was trying to explain to you (on the Historycy.org forum) that those Sardinians are more closely related to the large Slavic clades L260 and CTS11962 than to your patrilineage (or to your parental clade A11460).



Still is placed like that
It is not shown as M458>A11460, and this would be required to make it more closely related to A11460 than to PF7521.

Michał
10-15-2017, 11:13 PM
@Pan Michał
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Jaszsag/default.aspx?section=yresults
Jest Pan w stanie coś powiedź o r1a
Zwykle na podstawie jedynie 12 markerów STR trudno jest przewidzieć konkretny klad, ale w tym przypadku mamy na szczęście aż pięciu mocnych kandydatów na typowy słowiański klad L260 (w tym dwóch kandydatów na L260>YP1337). Chodzi o wszystkich z wynikiem DYS385a=10 (i dodatkowo DYS439=11 w przypadku YP1337).
Spośród pozostałej dziewiątki, jedyny dłuższy haplotyp (67 markerów STR) wygląda na karpacki klad YP340, a konkretniej na subklad YP371 (YP371>YP372>YP379>YP380?). Co do reszty (8 haplotypów) nie da się chyba nic konkretnego powiedzieć bez rozszerzenia ich wyników do co najmniej 37 markerów, może oprócz tego, że pięciu z nich (tych z wynikiem DYS439=11) ma duże szanse, żeby trafić do wspomnianego karpackiego kladu YP340 (a kit 250078 może dodatkowo okazać się YP340>P278.2).

-----------------

Usually, it is very difficult to predict a specific clade based on 12 STRs only, but in this case, we are lucky enough to have five strong candidates for the typical Slavic clade L260 (including two candidates for L260> YP1337). These are kits with DYS385a=10 (and additionally DYS439=11 for YP1337).
Of the remaining nine, the only longer haplotype (67 STRs) seems to belong to the Carpathian clade YP340, more specifically to subclade YP371 (YP371>YP372>YP379>YP380?). As for the rest (8 haplotypes), nothing can be said without extending their results to at least 37 markers, except that five of them (those with DYS439=11) have a good chance of landing in the above-mentioned Carpathian clade YP340 (and kit 250078 may additionally be YP340>P278.2).

Rethel
03-06-2018, 07:43 PM
Any new ideas?

JoeyP37
11-30-2018, 03:24 PM
L260 is straightforwardly West Slavic, while L1029 is a goofy group; a large number of clades have the commonality that they participated in the Slavic expansion but their bearers are now something else; mostly Germans with some Hungarians and of course Albanians. There's even a Jewish clade downstream of YP263, while YP417 is Russian and Bulgarian. I figure that just prior to the Slavic migrations L260 pretty much lived in the same area in eastern Poland while the L1029 bearers were scattered around from Silesia to Kiev.

Kulin
11-30-2018, 10:51 PM
Because they speak Scythian or Sarmatian language, and they are alan decensdants.

Yaghnobis speak a dialect of Soghdian, while other Soghdian speakers either were Persianised to form Tajiks North of the Amu Darya/Oxus, or mixed with Turkic tribes in the region. Wakhi people from Wakhan today probably speak a dialect descendant of Saka language, while Ossetian is a confirmed descendant of the Alan/Sarmatian language.

leonardo
12-01-2018, 12:54 AM
L260 is straightforwardly West Slavic, while L1029 is a goofy group; a large number of clades have the commonality that they participated in the Slavic expansion but their bearers are now something else; mostly Germans with some Hungarians and of course Albanians. There's even a Jewish clade downstream of YP263, while YP417 is Russian and Bulgarian. I figure that just prior to the Slavic migrations L260 pretty much lived in the same area in eastern Poland while the L1029 bearers were scattered around from Silesia to Kiev.

I read a few years back that, during the Christianization period of the Slavs, some chose to accept Judaism, seeing as more egalitarian and, there was a great animosity among some Slavs about Christianity due to the way it was administered (think the Northern Crusades).