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View Full Version : Yseq tested me positive for CTS723. What next?



Hando
07-14-2017, 02:50 AM
Hi Yseq tested me positive for CTS723. But Yseq tested me negative for A12446 and Y26376. So I assume I belong to an unknown subclade of CTS723?
What can I test next? Does it make sense to do a Big Y test?
My main motivation is to know more about the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc history of my SNP and Haplogroup. Can anyone help?
Thanks

sahaliyan
07-14-2017, 05:35 AM
You said you already tested BigY,and you are CTS682,how can you be both CTS682 and CTS723?And if you already tested BigY,why should you test YSEQ,very strange

ArmandoR1b
07-14-2017, 06:14 AM
Hando, there needs to be a lot of decent quality ancient DNA from Asia in order to know more about the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc history of your SNP and your haplogroup. If you get a BigY test it will only be to determine where you sit under the CTS723 branch. If you share novel SNPs with one of the two kits at YFull and you get a YFull analysis then you'll get a new branch and possibly a new TMRCA. If not then you will get a list of novel SNPs but you will still be in the CTS723 branch. If you are negative for a phylogenetic equivalent then you will beak up the current branch of CTS723 into two branches. It is up to you to determine if the above is are good enough reasons to get a BigY test.

Hando
07-14-2017, 08:09 AM
You said you already tested BigY,and you are CTS682,how can you be both CTS682 and CTS723?And if you already tested BigY,why should you test YSEQ,very strange
Hi Sahaliyan, actually I am CTS723 via YSeq. And the CTS682 is actually my cousin via Big Y. It is not me. Sorry for the confusion, but I did not want to have to explain that CTS682 was my cousin all the time I commented. I did not want to write a long explanation every time.

Hando
07-14-2017, 08:15 AM
Hando, there needs to be a lot of decent quality ancient DNA from Asia in order to know more about the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc history of your SNP and your haplogroup. If you get a BigY test it will only be to determine where you sit under the CTS723 branch. If you share novel SNPs with one of the two kits at YFull and you get a YFull analysis then you'll get a new branch and possibly a new TMRCA. If not then you will get a list of novel SNPs but you will still be in the CTS723 branch. If you are negative for a phylogenetic equivalent then you will beak up the current branch of CTS723 into two branches. It is up to you to determine if the above is are good enough reasons to get a BigY test.

Hi Armando, what exactly do you mean by the bolded sentence above? If I do not shares a novel SNP with one of the two kits on YFull I will split the current branch of CTS723 in two?

Also are there already two kits at YFull for CTS723?
Thnaks

ArmandoR1b
07-14-2017, 02:15 PM
Hi Armando, what exactly do you mean by the bolded sentence above?

Z24622, CTS2315, Z24621, 24625, Z24624 are phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.

If you are negative for any of the following SNPs - Z24622, CTS2315, Z24621, 24625, or Z24624 that means you are negative for one of the phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.

If you are negative for a phylogenetic equivalent to CTS723 then the branch for CTS723 will be broken up into two branches. One branch with the SNPs that you are positive for and another branch with the SNPs that you are negative for.



If I do not shares a novel SNP with one of the two kits on YFull I will split the current branch of CTS723 in two?
Only if you are also negative for one of the phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.



Also are there already two kits at YFull for CTS723?
Thnaks
There are four kits that are positive for CTS723 but two are negative for Y26376. They are kits NA18561 and YF06888. https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-CTS723/

dp
07-14-2017, 05:40 PM
don't know if your into mtDNA too but:
NA18561
Han Chinese in Beijing
O-CTS723*
mtDNA F1d

Hando
07-15-2017, 06:50 AM
don't know if your into mtDNA too but:
NA18561
Han Chinese in Beijing
O-CTS723*
mtDNA F1d
Thanks. My mtdna is D5a2

Hando
07-15-2017, 07:04 AM
Z24622, CTS2315, Z24621, 24625, Z24624 are phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.

If you are negative for any of the following SNPs - Z24622, CTS2315, Z24621, 24625, or Z24624 that means you are negative for one of the phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.

If you are negative for a phylogenetic equivalent to CTS723 then the branch for CTS723 will be broken up into two branches. One branch with the SNPs that you are positive for and another branch with the SNPs that you are negative for.



Only if you are also negative for one of the phylogenetic equivalents to CTS723.



There are four kits that are positive for CTS723 but two are negative for Y26376. They are kits NA18561 and YF06888. https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-CTS723/
Thanks. Accrding to that link CTS723 is about 4,000 years old and since the two kits are from china it appears to have originated in china. Perhaps during the Bronze Age.
How old is CTS682? And how old is CTS2272?

ArmandoR1b
07-15-2017, 12:12 PM
How old is CTS682? And how old is CTS2272?

No idea since they don't show up with a search with https://www.yfull.com/search-snp-in-tree/

If you try some of the upstream SNPs you might get a hit with a search.

Ebizur
07-15-2017, 12:32 PM
How old is CTS682? And how old is CTS2272?CTS682 and CTS2272 are currently considered to be phylogenetically equivalent because no example of an individual whose Y-DNA exhibits one SNP but not the other has been found to date; unless some evidence to the contrary emerges, their ages may be assumed to be identical.

ISOGG indicates that O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682 is a subclade of O2a2b1a2b1-CTS8481, the latter being equivalent to YFull's O-Y31255. On the current YFull tree, O-Y31255 is represented by the Y-DNA of three individuals: YF09710 (reported to be from Fujian in southeastern China), YF08702 (reported to be from Sichuan in southwestern China), and NA19083 (an individual from the JPT sample collected in Tokyo, Japan). YFull has estimated the TMRCA of these three individuals' Y-DNA to be approximately 9,100 [95% CI 7,000 <-> 11,600] years before present. This allows us to set an upper bound of 9,100 (or, to be conservative, 11,600) years for the age of O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682/CTS2272.

Chao Ning, Shi Yan, Kang Hu, Yin-Qiu Cui, and Li Jin have reported in their paper "Refined phylogenetic structure of an abundant East Asian Y-chromosomal haplogroup O*-M134" (European Journal of Human Genetics 2015) that they have found Y-DNA belonging to O-F3451, a clade that subsumes both O2a2b1a2b2-F748 and O2a2b1a2b1-CTS8481 (and, hence, O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682/CTS2272), in 4/225 (1.8%) of Han from North China (Hebei, Henan, Shandong, Shanxi, Tianjin, Beijing), 6/450 (1.3%) of Han from East China (Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Anhui, Shanghai), and 2/158 (1.3%) of Han from South China (Guangdong, Hunan, Hubei, Fujian). Y-DNA belonging to O-F3451 has not been observed in any of their other population samples: 0/16 Manchu, 0/36 Han from Southwest China (Guizhou, Sichuan, Chongqing), 0/47 Han from Northwest China (Shaanxi, Gansu), 0/80 Han from Northeast China (Jilin, Heilongjiang, Inner Mongolia), 0/93 Hui, 0/196 Mongol. The authors have estimated the coalescence time of their twelve O-F3451 Han Chinese individuals to be 8,170 ± 1,280 years based on a "genealogical rate" of 0.0021 mutations per locus per 25 years (Ge JY et al. 2009, "Mutation rates at Y chromosome short tandem repeats in Texas populations") or 24,900 ± 3,910 years based on the "evolutionary rate" of 0.00069 mutations per locus per 25 years (Zhivotovsky LA et al. 2004, "The effective mutation rate at Y chromosome short tandem repeats, with application to human population divergence time"), giving it the greatest coalescence time of any of the ten groups of Y-chromosomes belonging to O-F444 for which they have performed such calculations (even greater than their estimate of the coalescence time of O-F444 in total, which is a nonsensical result, but such incongruent estimates often appear in studies that use Y-STR variation to estimate coalescence times).

The TMRCA of O-CTS682 cannot be narrowed down any further without additional data.

So Yeun Kwon et al. ("Confirmation of Y haplogroup tree topologies with newly suggested Y-SNPs for the C2, O2b and O3a subhaplogroups," Forensic Science International: Genetics 19 (2015) 42–46) have found O-F444 in 68/706 (9.63%) of a pool of samples collected in Seoul (n=573) and Daejeon (n=133), South Korea. This is comparable with the frequencies for O-F444 in the Han from Northeast China and Han from South China samples of Chao Ning et al.:

Han, Northwest 9/47 = 19.1% O-F444
Manchu 3/16 = 18.8% O-F444
Han, North 34/225 = 15.1% O-F444
Hui 14/93 = 15.1% O-F444
Han, East 64/450 = 14.2% O-F444
Han, Southwest 5/36 = 13.9% O-F444
Han, Northeast 9/80 = 11.3% O-F444
Han, South 14/158 = 8.9% O-F444
Mongol 2/196 = 1.0% O-F444

However, please remember that the frequency of O-F3451 in their Han from South China sample is only 2/158 (1.3%), and that subclade is completely absent from their Han from Northeast China sample as well as their Manchu and Mongol samples. I think it would be quite surprising if the frequency of O-F3451 in Korea turned out to be much higher than the frequency of this subclade among Han Chinese in North China and East China.

In summary, I think it is safe to say based on currently available data that your cousin belongs to a clade that is quite old (perhaps dating back to the era of the earliest Neolithic culture in East Asia) but sparsely distributed and found mainly among males in the Sinosphere (Han Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese). I think his patrilineal ancestor probably has come from China at some time since the onset of the Neolithic, but it is difficult to pinpoint the antiquity of this migration without additional data. (I would say he is probably a descendant of a Han-era Chinese colonist of Lelang or one of the other Commanderies, but that is just a wild guess.)


Thanks. Accrding to that link CTS723 is about 4,000 years old and since the two kits are from china it appears to have originated in china. Perhaps during the Bronze Age.O-F3356(x47z) Y-DNA has been found in 20.96% (148/706) of Koreans from Seoul and Daejeon, with 18.98% (134/706) of that belonging to the subclade O-L682 and 1.98% (14/706) belonging to O-F3356(x47z, L682). O-L682, which subsumes O-CTS723, is found with by far the greatest frequency among Koreans. O-F3356(x47z, L682) is more ambiguous, but it too is probably found among Koreans at least as frequently as it is found among Chinese or Japanese.

O-P49 is overall somewhat similar to R2-M479 in regard to both time of divergence from the nearest outgroup (28,500 ybp for the interclade TMRCA of O-P49 and O-K18; 28,200 ybp for the interclade TMRCA of R1-M173 and R2-M479) and coalescence age of all members known to YFull (12,100 ybp for all tabulated members of O-P49 and 8,200 ybp for its predominant subclade, O-K10; 16,600 ybp for all tabulated members of R2-M479 and 10,600 ybp for its predominant subclade, R-M124). There is about as much reason to ascribe a Chinese origin to O-P49 as there is to ascribe a South Asian or Southwest Asian origin to R1-M173. It is quite plausible that O-P49 might have evolved in prehistoric Korea or prehistoric Japan (or even in each of those separately in the form of two different subclades since roughly 8,200 years ago) in nearly complete isolation from its distant cousins in O-K18, O-M119, and O-M122. Ancient DNA should be the only way to clarify the matter, and what ancient DNA from China we do have so far suggests that the Y-DNA of the people of the North China Plain has been pretty much like that of modern Han Chinese since at least 3,000 years ago, and O-P49 has been found in ancient DNA neither in that region nor in any of the peripheral regions to the north or northeast.

sahaliyan
07-15-2017, 03:46 PM
Hando,based on str value and snp result,CTS682 is rare in China.The CTS682 in Koreans are very young,mostly belong to a recent expanded cluster,as you know is Jeonju Lee cluster.And the common ancestor of Korean and Japanese CTS682 maybe older.But I can tell,in several thousand samples of Han samples,many times,we can't find one sample belong to cts682 branch,so this is a branch extrem rare in China.
As for O-F3451,of course this branch exist in other peoples,such as the Buryats,for example 77254 Grigoriev is clearly F3451,but he belongs to a differant cluster than CTS682
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/o3/default.aspx?section=yresults
Don't believe in some people's nonsense such as" found mainly among males in the Sinosphere"blabla,you should check the data yourself and find the answer

Hando
07-16-2017, 05:58 AM
CTS682 and CTS2272 are currently considered to be phylogenetically equivalent because no example of an individual whose Y-DNA exhibits one SNP but not the other has been found to date; unless some evidence to the contrary emerges, their ages may be assumed to be identical.
Ebizur and Sahaliyan,
my cousin's Big Y result says he is both positive for CTS682 and CTS2272. How can this be if CTS682 and CTS2272 are phylogenetically equivalent?
2) Also, how old are CTS682 and CTS2272?
3) How frequent is CTS2272 in Korea and China?1757917580

Here are three screenshots of my cousin's FTDNA account. They show his Big Y test results. If you want I can let you see his FTDNA account. It is actually my account. I created it. Just send me a private message if you want. I can tell you the kit# and password.
Thanks
1758017581

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 07:00 AM
Hando,I check the str data of the paper "Confirmation of Y haplogroup tree topologies with newly suggested Y-SNPs for the C2, O2b and O3a subhaplogroups",and cts682 samples as follow,there are 18 samples,make up 2.5% of Korean samples.
Sample ID Population DYS19 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS385 DYS438 DYS439 DYS437 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 YGATAH4 DYS481 DYS533 DYS549 DYS570 DYS576 DYS643 DYF387S1 DYS449 DYS460 DYS518 DYS627 DYS388 DYS446 DYS447 DYS464 Final marker Haplogroup
KorYH-090 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 15 18 18 11 38,40 33 11 37 23 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-092 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,40 32 11 36 24 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-120 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,20 10 12 15 19 16 19 22 11 20 12 14 18 18 11 38,39 32 11 37 25 12 13 24 13 14 15 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-130 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,20 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 15 19 18 11 38,40 32 11 37 23 12 13 24 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-178 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,18 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 13 18 19 11 38,40 33 11 37 24 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-288 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 19 21 11 20 11 14 18 20 11 38,40 32 11 37 24 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-310 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 12 15 19 16 18 22 11 20 11 14 18 18 11 38,40 32 11 37 23 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-315 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,40 32 11 37 25 12 14 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-353 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,40 32 11 37 25 12 13 24 13 14 15 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-358 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 22 11 20 12 14 18 18 11 38,40 32 10 37 24 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-397 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 17 21 11 20 11 13 18 18 11 37,39 32 11 37 23 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-412 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,20 10 12 15 19 16 19 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,39 35 11 37 25 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-462 Daejeon, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 21 11 14 18 18 11 38,39 32 11 37 25 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-493 Daejeon, Korea 15 12 28 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 16 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 39,40 32 11 38 23 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-509 Daejeon, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,40 33 11 36 25 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-604 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 19 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,39 33 11 37 24 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-621 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 14 18 19 11 38,40 32 11 38 24 12 13 24 13 14 F444 O3-F444
KorYH-629 Seoul, Korea 15 12 29 23 10 12 12 11,19 10 11 15 19 16 18 21 11 20 11 13 18 19 11 38,40 32 11 37 23 12 13 24 13 14 16 F444 O3-F444

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 07:23 AM
As for CTS682 in China,this branch is rare in China,usualy in several thousand samples,we can't find one sample belong to CTS682.we can find one in 206 Khorchin Mongol samples
http://www.ranhaer.org/thread-33709-1-2.html
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-016-1387-3
DYS19 DYS385a/b DYS388 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS449 DYS456 DYS458 DYS460 DYS481 DYS533 DYS549 DYS570 DYS576 DYS635 DYS643 YGATAH4
Ht172 15 11,19 12 12 28 23 10 12 12 15 10 11 19 33 15 18 10 21 11 12 16 20 21 11 11

Hando
07-16-2017, 08:27 AM
Hando,I check the str data of the paper "Confirmation of Y haplogroup tree topologies with newly suggested Y-SNPs for the C2, O2b and O3a subhaplogroups",and cts682 samples as follow,there are 18 samples,make up 2.5% of Korean samples.

Thank you Sahaliyan. So CTS682 is only 2.5% of Korean samples and therefore it is very rare in Korea and also china.
1) But why does my cousin's Big Y test result say he is both CTS682 and CTS2272? How can he be both?
2) Also what is the frequency of CTS2272 in Korea?
3) And how old is it?
Thanks

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 11:13 AM
Thank you Sahaliyan. So CTS682 is only 2.5% of Korean samples and therefore it is very rare in Korea and also china.
1) But why does my cousin's Big Y test result say he is both CTS682 and CTS2272? How can he be both?
2) Also what is the frequency of CTS2272 in Korea?
3) And how old is it?
Thanks
CTS2272 is considered equivalent SNP for CTS682,as for it's age,I don't know
But you can see the str values of Korean CTS682,they are close to each other,and clearly the age of those samples less than 1000 years

Hando
07-16-2017, 11:52 AM
CTS2272 is considered equivalent SNP for CTS682,as for it's age,I don't know
But you can see the str values of Korean CTS682,they are close to each other,and clearly the age of those samples less than 1000 years
Yes as you can see from the screenshots my cousin is positive for both CTS682 and CTS2272 on Big Y. So I guess this means these SNPs are equivalent to each other. So thanks for the explanation.
As for the age being less than 1,000 years old could it mean it was born in Korea and not china? 1,000 is a very young age compared to other SNPs...

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 12:15 PM
Yes as you can see from the screenshots my cousin is positive for both CTS682 and CTS2272 on Big Y. So I guess this means these SNPs are equivalent to each other. So thanks for the explanation.
As for the age being less than 1,000 years old could it mean it was born in Korea and not china? 1,000 is a very young age compared to othe SNPs...
CTS682 maybe older than 1000 years,what I talk about is Jeonju Lee cluster(but this cluster make up nearly all Korean CTS682 samples),this cluster is very young.
As for birthplace of CTS682,I think there was big chance this branch not borned in China but in other places

Hando
07-16-2017, 01:02 PM
CTS682 maybe older than 1000 years,what I talk about is Jeonju Lee cluster(but this cluster make up nearly all Korean CTS682 samples),this cluster is very young.
As for birthplace of CTS682,I think there was big chance this branch not borned in China but in other places
I'm confused, because I thought Jeonju Yi cluster = CTS682/CTS2272.
1) Are you saying that Jeonju Yi cluster is subclade below CTS682/CTS2272?
2) And does my cousin belong to Jeonju Yi cluster? He surname is Jeonju Yi and he has genealogical records which say he descends from King Sejong. And of course he is CTS682/CTS2272 as you know.

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 01:16 PM
I'm confused, because I thought Jeonju Yi cluster = CTS682/CTS2272.
1) Are you saying that Jeonju Yi cluster is subclade below CTS682/CTS2272?
2) And does my cousin belong to Jeonju Yi cluster?
There are Japanese CTS682 samples,they don't belong the Jeonju Lee cluster(their str a bit differant than Jeonju Lee modal),but nearly all Korean CTS682 samples belong to Jeonju Lee cluster,so I think your cousin belong to Jeonju Lee cluster because of his family history and because he is a Korean.

Hando
07-16-2017, 01:27 PM
There are Japanese CTS682 samples,they don't belong the Jeonju Lee cluster(their str a bit differant than Jeonju Lee modal),but nearly all Korean CTS682 samples belong to Jeonju Lee cluster,so I think your cousin belong to Jeonju Lee cluster because of his family history and because he is a Korean.
When you said there are Japanese CTS682 are you talking about Rai Kuniyuki (Kit#N144027)? He is CTS682 and CTS2272 just like My cousin who is Park (Kit#188281) my cousin is also listed in the link below as CTS682 and CTS2272
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/o3/default.aspx?section=yresults
And if you want to see my cousin's ftdna kit I can give you password.
My cousin has genealogical record of Jeonju Yi royal family which says he is descended from King Sejong. And his surname is Jeonju Yi.

Ebizur
07-16-2017, 01:48 PM
I'm confused, because I thought Jeonju Yi cluster means CTS682. Means CTS682/CTS2272.
Are you saying that Jeonju Yi cluster is CTS682 and subclade below CTS682?
And does my cousin belong to Jeonju Yi cluster?The erstwhile royal family of Joseon (i.e. the kingdom that existed on the Korean Peninsula from 1392 until being renamed 大韓帝國 "Great Han Empire" in 1897) appears to belong to O-CTS682. That does not necessarily mean that all extant members of O-CTS682 are descended from that royal family. In other words, the so-called "Jeonju Yi cluster" may be just a subset of a broader haplogroup O-CTS682.

O-Y31255, an older haplogroup from which O-CTS682 is derived, is represented on YFull by an individual from Fujian, an individual from Sichuan, and an individual from Tokyo with an estimated TMRCA of 9,100 ybp. An even more divergent lineage belonging to O-F3451(xY31255) is represented on YFull by HG02050, a Kinh (i.e. a so-called "ethnic Vietnamese") sampled in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam; the TMRCA of this Vietnamese lineage and the aforementioned Chinese and Japanese members of O-Y31255 is estimated to be 11,100 ybp. Chao Ning et al. 2015 estimated a coalescence time of 8,170 ± 1,280 years for their set of twelve O-F3451 Y-chromosomes of Han Chinese (six from East China, four from North China, and two from South China) based on a genealogically observed Y-STR mutation rate published by Ge J et al. ("Mutation rates at Y chromosome short tandem repeats in Texas populations") in 2009. Unfortunately, I think you will be hard-pressed to find any data regarding the age or the geographic or ethnic distribution of O-CTS682 in the literature.

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 02:06 PM
When you said there are Japanese CTS682 are you talking about Rai Kuniyuki (Kit#N144027)? He is CTS682 and CTS2272 just like My cousin who is Park (Kit#188281) my cousin is also listed in the link below as CTS682 and CTS2272
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/o3/default.aspx?section=yresults
And if you want to see my cousin's ftdna kit I can give you password.
My cousin has genealogical record of Jeonju Yi royal family which says he is descended from King Sejong. And his surname is Jeonju Yi.
the Y-str of NA19083 from 1000genomes,NA19083 is also belong to CTS682
DYS19 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 H4 DYS385 DYS576 DYS481 DYS549 DYS533 DYS570 DYS643

15 12 29 24 10 12 12 15 10 11 19 16 18 22 11 11,18 18 20 14 11 18 11
https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-F1725/

Hando
07-16-2017, 02:10 PM
The erstwhile royal family of Joseon (i.e. the kingdom that existed on the Korean Peninsula from 1392 until being renamed 大韓帝國 "Great Han Empire" in 1897) appears to belong to O-CTS682. That does not necessarily mean that all extant members of O-CTS682 are descended from that royal family. In other words, the so-called "Jeonju Yi cluster" may be just a subset of a broader haplogroup O-CTS682.

O-Y31255, an older haplogroup from which O-CTS682 is derived, is represented on YFull by an individual from Fujian, an individual from Sichuan, and an individual from Tokyo with an estimated TMRCA of 9,100 ybp. An even more divergent lineage belonging to O-F3451(xY31255) is represented on YFull by HG02050, a Kinh (i.e. a so-called "ethnic Vietnamese") sampled in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam; the TMRCA of this Vietnamese lineage and the aforementioned Chinese and Japanese members of O-Y31255 is estimated to be 11,100 ybp. Chao Ning et al. 2015 estimated a coalescence time of 8,170 ± 1,280 years for their set of twelve O-F3451 Y-chromosomes of Han Chinese (six from East China, four from North China, and two from South China) based on a genealogically observed Y-STR mutation rate published by Ge J et al. ("Mutation rates at Y chromosome short tandem repeats in Texas populations") in 2009. Unfortunately, I think you will be hard-pressed to find any data regarding the age or the geographic or ethnic distribution of O-CTS682 in the literature.
Does the bolded part above mean that the Jeonju Yi cluster to which my CTS682/CTS2272 cousin belongs is a subclade of CTS682/CTS2272?
If so how can I find out from his Big Y test?

Hando
07-16-2017, 02:17 PM
the Y-str of NA19083 from 1000genomes,NA19083 is also belong to CTS682
DYS19 DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS437 DYS438 DYS439 DYS448 DYS456 DYS458 DYS635 H4 DYS385 DYS576 DYS481 DYS549 DYS533 DYS570 DYS643

15 12 29 24 10 12 12 15 10 11 19 16 18 22 11 11,18 18 20 14 11 18 11
https://www.yfull.com/tree/O-F1725/
Ok so NA19083 is anger Japanese man. He is not N144027 Mr. Rai Kuniyuki.
Mr. Rai Kuniyuki is also CTS682/CTS2272 just like my cousin 188281
So if Japanese CTS682 is different str from Korean Jeonju Yi cluster CTS682/CTS2272 how come Rai Kuniyuki N144027 is listed with my cousin Park 188281 in the Ftdna chart below?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/o3/default.aspx?section=yresults
Rai Kuniyuki says he is descended from a Japanese sword maker who may have immigrated to Japan from Korea in the 1200s AD. Maybe he was related to Jeonju Yi before Jeonju Yi Songye was born?

sahaliyan
07-16-2017, 02:24 PM
Does the bolded part above mean that the Jeonju Yi cluster to which my CTS682/CTS2272 cousin belongs is a subclade of CTS682/CTS2272?
If so how can I find out from his Big Y test?
You can transfer his raw data to YFULL and find another one who separated with him from King Taejo(such as the descendants of King Jeongjong),and tesed him,transfer his data to YFULL,and we should test one Japanese sample doesn't belong to Jeonju Lee modal),transfer his data to YFULL,then we can find family SNP of Jeonju Lee clan

Ebizur
07-16-2017, 02:37 PM
Does the bolded part above mean that the Jeonju Yi cluster to which my CTS682/CTS2272 cousin belongs is a subclade of CTS682/CTS2272?In essence, yes, it would mean that.


If so how can I find out from his Big Y test?You would need to convince that person who has published his Y-DNA data on FTDNA as "Rai Kuniyuki (刀鍛冶)" (as I have explained to you before, this is actually a pseudonym, or at best a borrowing of a name of a presumed ancestor who was renowned as a swordsmith in 13th century Japan and was rumored to be descended from an immigrant from Goryeo, the kingdom that preceded the Jeonju Yi clan's Joseon on the Korean Peninsula) to take the Big Y test and then compare his SNPs with those of your cousin.

Alternatively, I suppose you should be able to share your cousin's Big Y data with an administrator at YFull so that they may tabulate your cousin's data and compare his Y-SNPs with those of NA19083 from the JPT sample.

rhad
07-16-2017, 02:44 PM
Does the bolded part above mean that the Jeonju Yi cluster to which my CTS682/CTS2272 cousin belongs is a subclade of CTS682/CTS2272?
If so how can I find out from his Big Y test?

I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate.

P.S. CTS732 belongs to L682 known as "Korean Star Cluster". It takes an incredible amount of imagination and sino-centrism apparent in some members of this forum to locate its origin in China proper. Perhaps Manchuria but even that is not all that likely. Molanthro cafe I mentioned has a lot of information about your Y-clan. About 1 out of 15 Korean men you bump into shares the common grandfather who probably lived around 2000 years ago. The cafe has more detailed info. and speculations.

Ebizur
07-16-2017, 03:44 PM
They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate.This is the previous comment of mine to which you have referred obliquely:


I think his patrilineal ancestor probably has come from China at some time since the onset of the Neolithic, but it is difficult to pinpoint the antiquity of this migration without additional data. (I would say he is probably a descendant of a Han-era Chinese colonist of Lelang or one of the other Commanderies, but that is just a wild guess.)

The fact remains that the distribution of O-F444 both in number of members and as a percentage of the mainstream population is mainly in China among Han Chinese (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10286-Recent-developments-in-aDNA-and-Interpretation-in-China&p=226956&viewfull=1#post226956). Of course, it is not always true that the location of origin of a clade is at the center of its observed distribution, but that is the most likely location of origin (i.e. should be regarded as the null hypothesis) unless data to the contrary are brought to light.

The establishment of the Kingdom of Goryeo postdates the establishment of the Four Commanderies of Han by a full millennium, and the presumed migration of Rai Kuniyuki's patrilineal ancestor from Goryeo to Japan should have occurred a few centuries after the establishment of that kingdom. The establishment of the Kingdom of Joseon by Yi Seonggye should have occurred about two centuries later than that migration. All these individuals theoretically could be descended from a Han-era migrant from China to one of the Four Commanderies; a comparison of Hando's cousin's Big Y data with NA19083 from the JPT sample, YF09710 from Fujian, and YF08702 from Sichuan should give us a hint regarding how the diversity of O-Y31255 in Korea and Japan compares to that in China and potentially allow us to support or invalidate my hypothesis. (Of course, even if the TMRCA of O-Y31255 in Korea and Japan were found to predate the Four Commanderies of Han, it would be plausible that more than one ancestor belonging to O-Y31255 might have immigrated to the Korean Peninsula and/or Japan since the onset of the Neolithic in China, and that their diversity merely reflected an inheritance of diversity that had accumulated in the population of the source region prior to migration.)

An alternative hypothesis might link the appearance of an O-Y31255 ancestor in Korea and/or Japan to a hypothetical migration that has introduced the ancestor of O-K10 (TMRCA estimate 8,200 ybp) to the same region. Although members of O-M176(xK10) are known from Hiroshima, Beijing, and Seoul and/or Daejeon, that lineage has no attested collateral branches for an extremely long span of time (between 28,500 ybp and 12,100 ybp), and its geographical distribution is quite restricted. O-Y31255, on the other hand, must share a common ancestor with all other members of O-Y20, who are spread throughout East and Southeast Asia, about 13,600 ybp.

rhad
07-16-2017, 03:59 PM
The fact remains that...Southeast Asia, about 13,600 ybp.

In other words, you don't really know but just want to claim that they descend from Chinese. You must be related to the likes of Bing Su who speculates about "Han Chinese Neolithic in North East (also known as Manchuria to the rest of the world)".

Ebizur
07-16-2017, 04:45 PM
In other words, you don't really know but just want to claim that they descend from Chinese.What is more likely: that a large number of people in Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Southeast Asia, and Northeast India have descended from a population of ancient (or even prehistoric, e.g. Neolithic) China, or that all those people have descended from natives of the Korean Peninsula, who lived in pit-houses, used tools of stone, and subsisted mainly by hunting, gathering, and fishing until the first millennium BCE? Granted, those natives were quite avant-garde with their comb-marked earthenware, but I cannot imagine how they might have influenced other populations spread over such a wide area so strongly when they did not even practice intensive agriculture until the Middle Mumun period (roughly speaking, the second quarter of the first millennium BCE). If one looks back far enough in time, it really does become an "either/or" question.


You must be related to the likes of Bing Su who speculates about "Han Chinese Neolithic in North East (also known as Manchuria to the rest of the world)".I am not of East Asian origin.

Hando
07-16-2017, 04:55 PM
I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate.

P.S. CTS732 belongs to L682 known as "Korean Star Cluster". It takes an incredible amount of imagination and sino-centrism apparent in some members of this forum to locate its origin in China proper. Perhaps Manchuria but even that is not all that likely. Molanthro cafe I mentioned has a lot of information about your Y-clan. About 1 out of 5 Korean men you bump into shares the common grandfather who probably lived around 2000 years ago. The cafe has more detailed info. and speculations.
Thanks for the info on the Daum forum. I'll ask a friend to help me join up and share my cousin's Big Y results. I've already asked ftdna to give me the BAM files and I'll send them once I receive it. This will also save me $50 required to convert it via Y Full.
With regards to the above bolded sentence from your post, could you please explain what you meant? Are you saying that there are some Koreans who are CTS682 but are not from the surname Jeonju Yi? If so, how did the Daum forum owner conclude that Korean CTS682 such as my cousin is the "Yi Songye Modal"?
Thanks

Hando
07-16-2017, 05:01 PM
In essence, yes, it would mean that.

You would need to convince that person who has published his Y-DNA data on FTDNA as "Rai Kuniyuki (刀鍛冶)" (as I have explained to you before, this is actually a pseudonym, or at best a borrowing of a name of a presumed ancestor who was renowned as a swordsmith in 13th century Japan and was rumored to be descended from an immigrant from Goryeo, the kingdom that preceded the Jeonju Yi clan's Joseon on the Korean Peninsula) to take the Big Y test and then compare his SNPs with those of your cousin.

Alternatively, I suppose you should be able to share your cousin's Big Y data with an administrator at YFull so that they may tabulate your cousin's data and compare his Y-SNPs with those of NA19083 from the JPT sample.

I've tried to contact Rai Kuniyuki for over a year and even called the place he listed as his employer in Osaka, but to no avail.
Are you suggesting that either Rai Kuniyuki or the other Japanese tester at Yfull NA19083 are equally suitable as test subjects for my cousin? Perhaps I'll have a better chance of locating and convincing him.

Hando
07-16-2017, 05:05 PM
You can transfer his raw data to YFULL and find another one who separated with him from King Taejo(such as the descendants of King Jeongjong),and tesed him,transfer his data to YFULL,and we should test one Japanese sample doesn't belong to Jeonju Lee modal),transfer his data to YFULL,then we can find family SNP of Jeonju Lee clan

Do you mean that I should find and convince another Korean Jeonju Yi man who descends from Yi Songye through a more recent Yi dynasty king? I wonder if I can find someone like that who already took the Big Y.
And then I should test either Rai Kuniyuki N144027 or NA19083? Both are equally suitable?
Thanks

Ebizur
07-16-2017, 05:26 PM
Are you suggesting that either Rai Kuniyuki or the other Japanese tester at Yfull NA19083 are equally suitable as test subjects for my cousin? Perhaps I'll have a better chance of locating and convincing him.Submitting your cousin's raw data to YFull should be a simple task, not requiring you to convince any reluctant or unresponsive person, and it should allow them to place O-CTS682 on the YFull Haplogroup YTree and estimate the time to most recent common ancestor of your cousin and NA19083 from the JPT (Japanese in Tokyo, Japan) sample of the 1000 Genomes Project.

sahaliyan
07-17-2017, 01:30 AM
This is the previous comment of mine to which you have referred obliquely:



The fact remains that the distribution of O-F444 both in number of members and as a percentage of the mainstream population is mainly in China among Han Chinese (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10286-Recent-developments-in-aDNA-and-Interpretation-in-China&p=226956&viewfull=1#post226956). Of course, it is not always true that the location of origin of a clade is at the center of its observed distribution, but that is the most likely location of origin (i.e. should be regarded as the null hypothesis) unless data to the contrary are brought to light.

The establishment of the Kingdom of Goryeo postdates the establishment of the Four Commanderies of Han by a full millennium, and the presumed migration of Rai Kuniyuki's patrilineal ancestor from Goryeo to Japan should have occurred a few centuries after the establishment of that kingdom. The establishment of the Kingdom of Joseon by Yi Seonggye should have occurred about two centuries later than that migration. All these individuals theoretically could be descended from a Han-era migrant from China to one of the Four Commanderies; a comparison of Hando's cousin's Big Y data with NA19083 from the JPT sample, YF09710 from Fujian, and YF08702 from Sichuan should give us a hint regarding how the diversity of O-Y31255 in Korea and Japan compares to that in China and potentially allow us to support or invalidate my hypothesis. (Of course, even if the TMRCA of O-Y31255 in Korea and Japan were found to predate the Four Commanderies of Han, it would be plausible that more than one ancestor belonging to O-Y31255 might have immigrated to the Korean Peninsula and/or Japan since the onset of the Neolithic in China, and that their diversity merely reflected an inheritance of diversity that had accumulated in the population of the source region prior to migration.)

An alternative hypothesis might link the appearance of an O-Y31255 ancestor in Korea and/or Japan to a hypothetical migration that has introduced the ancestor of O-K10 (TMRCA estimate 8,200 ybp) to the same region. Although members of O-M176(xK10) are known from Hiroshima, Beijing, and Seoul and/or Daejeon, that lineage has no attested collateral branches for an extremely long span of time (between 28,500 ybp and 12,100 ybp), and its geographical distribution is quite restricted. O-Y31255, on the other hand, must share a common ancestor with all other members of O-Y20, who are spread throughout East and Southeast Asia, about 13,600 ybp.
What about C-Z1318? the distribution of C-Z1318 both in number of members and as a percentage of the mainstream population isn't mainly in China among Han Chinese?And isn't this branch found in Vietnamese,Koreans,Japanese?
And we don't mention diversity here,all the branches of Z1318 from F845 to M407 exist in Han Chinese.
If you say Z1318 origin in a place of modern-day China,then I can agree with you.But borned in China not means this branch originly Sinitic speakers("Chinese")
https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F2613/

Hando
07-17-2017, 01:43 AM
Submitting your cousin's raw data to YFull should be a simple task, not requiring you to convince any reluctant or unresponsive person, and it should allow them to place O-CTS682 on the YFull Haplogroup YTree and estimate the time to most recent common ancestor of your cousin and NA19083 from the JPT (Japanese in Tokyo, Japan) sample of the 1000 Genomes Project.
So are you saying that either Rai Kuniyuki or NA19083 will serve the purpose equally well? I ask this because Rai Kuniyuki may be impossible to get hold of in the first place.

Ebizur
07-17-2017, 06:34 AM
So are you saying that either Rai Kuniyuki or NA19083 will serve the purpose equally well? I ask this because Rai Kuniyuki may be impossible to get hold of in the first place.Transferring your cousin's Y-DNA data to YFull so that they can compare it with the data of NA19083 does not require anyone to pay for any additional genetic testing; if I am not mistaken, it should cost only $49 for a processing fee. It should reveal some information about your cousin's Y-DNA haplogroup and a possible relative in Japan without any significant trouble or financial burden.

Ebizur
07-17-2017, 07:08 AM
What about C-Z1318? the distribution of C-Z1318 both in number of members and as a percentage of the mainstream population isn't mainly in China among Han Chinese?And isn't this branch found in Vietnamese,Koreans,Japanese?
And we don't mention diversity here,all the branches of Z1318 from F845 to M407 exist in Han Chinese.
If you say Z1318 origin in a place of modern-day China,then I can agree with you.But borned in China not means this branch originly Sinitic speakers("Chinese")
https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-F2613/Of course it does not mean they have all been speakers of a Sinitic language since the time of origin of their haplogroups. YFull's estimated TMRCA of O-F444 is 13,600 [12,000 <-> 15,300] ybp, and that of C-Z1318 is 11,400 [10,100 <-> 12,700] ybp. The MRCA of O-F444 may have spoken a completely different language from the MRCA of C-Z1318 even though they both probably lived in roughly the same era around the dawn of the first Neolithic culture in East Asia.

However, I do suspect that members of those two haplogroups have not been present in significant numbers in most of the territory that is now known as the Korean Peninsula for more than 3,000 years. Ancient DNA should clarify this.

rhad
07-17-2017, 01:58 PM
What is more likely: .. natives of the Korean Peninsula, who lived in pit-houses, used tools of stone, and subsisted mainly by hunting, gathering, and fishing until the first millennium BCE?

The worst attempt at trolling. You can say similar things about most ancient residents of modern day China except around population centers.



I am not of East Asian origin.

Probably only in the 脱亜入欧 sense though a Southeast Asian or a Mongol who thinks of himself as a Central Asian is a possibility.

rhad
07-17-2017, 02:22 PM
...
Chao Ning, Shi Yan, Kang Hu, Yin-Qiu Cui, and Li Jin have reported in their paper "Refined phylogenetic structure of an abundant East Asian Y-chromosomal haplogroup O*-M134" (European Journal of Human Genetics 2015) that they have found Y-DNA belonging to O-F3451, a clade that subsumes both O2a2b1a2b2-F748 and O2a2b1a2b1-CTS8481 (and, hence, O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682/CTS2272), in 4/225 (1.8%) of Han from North China (Hebei, Henan, Shandong, Shanxi, Tianjin, Beijing), 6/450 (1.3%) of Han from East China (Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Anhui, Shanghai), and 2/158 (1.3%) of Han from South China (Guangdong, Hunan, Hubei, Fujian). Y-DNA belonging to O-F3451 has not been observed in any of their other population samples: 0/16 Manchu, 0/36 Han from Southwest China (Guizhou, Sichuan, Chongqing), 0/47 Han from Northwest China (Shaanxi, Gansu), 0/80 Han from Northeast China (Jilin, Heilongjiang, Inner Mongolia), 0/93 Hui, 0/196 Mongol...

This is really comical. The reason that F3451 is not observed among Manchu, Northeast Han, Northwest Han, Southwest Han is most likely due to their small sample sizes.
Especially Manchu. He convinced himself that F3451 is a "Han Chinese thing" because it is not found among 16 Manchu samples. Incredible. The populations that harbor F3451 are 1st, 2nd, 4th in sample size. The 3rd belongs to Mongols who don't have all that much M122's to begin with. So practically the top 3 in sample size. Big surprise.
And based on this he makes such straw-grasping efforts to claim that Choson Royal lineage is of Han Chinese descent.

Ebizur
07-17-2017, 02:53 PM
And based on this he makes such straw-grasping efforts to claim that Choson Royal lineage is of Han Chinese descent.Go back and reread my comment. I made an offhand conjecture (explicitly so) that the direct patrilineal ancestor of the Yi royal family of Joseon probably has migrated from China to Korea at some time since the beginning of the Neolithic in East Asia. Do not misrepresent what I have stated.

Do you believe that all O-F444 has descended from a Paleolithic inhabitant of the Korean Peninsula? Since you appear to be so terribly offended by my conjectures, I infer that you must believe that to be true.

As for the samples of Chao Ning et al. 2015 that lack any members of O-F3451, you should contact the authors of that paper if you are troubled by their sampling strategy. Please do not try to impugn me for simply presenting their data in full form; I suppose you would prefer that I omit some data points according to some arbitrary sample size threshold.

sahaliyan
07-17-2017, 03:23 PM
Go back and reread my comment. I made an offhand conjecture (explicitly so) that the direct patrilineal ancestor of the Yi royal family of Joseon probably has migrated from China to Korea at some time since the beginning of the Neolithic in East Asia. Do not misrepresent what I have stated.

Do you believe that all O-F444 has descended from a Paleolithic inhabitant of the Korean Peninsula? Since you appear to be so terribly offended by my conjectures, I infer that you must believe that to be true.

As for the samples of Chao Ning et al. 2015 that lack any members of O-F3451, you should contact the authors of that paper if you are troubled by their sampling strategy. Please do not try to impugn me for simply presenting their data in full form; I suppose you would prefer that I omit some data points according to some arbitrary sample size threshold.
But you use the yfull data,there is a Sichuan sample(who is my friend,his surname is Li,and he has a small cluster in Sichuan and Gansu),but in Ning et al 2015 paper,did they found zero F3451 in their southwest Chinese samples?If you use yfull data,why don't you use FTDNA data,there is clearly a buryat atagan F3451 sample,and one Korean Choi and Korean Ha sample belong to same cluster with him?
And if you look into Khorchin samples,you can find many samples belong to the same cluster with that atagan sample
As for the Mongolian samples from Ning et al paper,I think this is a special case,most likely those are Bargut and Buryat samples(indeed they have large Bargut and Buryat samples),not mainstream inner Mongolian samples(like Khorchin or Chahar samples)

Hando
07-18-2017, 01:42 AM
I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate.

P.S. CTS732 belongs to L682 known as "Korean Star Cluster". It takes an incredible amount of imagination and sino-centrism apparent in some members of this forum to locate its origin in China proper. Perhaps Manchuria but even that is not all that likely. Molanthro cafe I mentioned has a lot of information about your Y-clan. About 1 out of 15 Korean men you bump into shares the common grandfather who probably lived around 2000 years ago. The cafe has more detailed info. and speculations.
Thanks for the info on the Daum forum. I'll ask a friend to help me join up and share my cousin's Big Y results. I've already asked ftdna to give me the BAM files and I'll send them once I receive it.
With regards to the above bolded sentence from your post, could you please explain what you meant? Are you saying that there are some Koreans who are CTS682 but are not from the surname Jeonju Yi? If so, how did the Daum forum owner conclude that Korean CTS682 such as my cousin is the "Yi Songye Modal"?
Thanks

Hando
07-19-2017, 03:38 PM
I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate.

P.S. CTS732 belongs to L682 known as "Korean Star Cluster". It takes an incredible amount of imagination and sino-centrism apparent in some members of this forum to locate its origin in China proper. Perhaps Manchuria but even that is not all that likely. Molanthro cafe I mentioned has a lot of information about your Y-clan. About 1 out of 15 Korean men you bump into shares the common grandfather who probably lived around 2000 years ago. The cafe has more detailed info. and speculations.
Does anyone know what the OP meant by the bolded statement? I've asked twice but don't think they've seen it. I'm not sure if they mean. OP states that CTS682 has been found outside of the Jeonju Yi royal cluster and that most of these are not Jeonju Yi surname holders. So is the OP implying that despite the fact that my cousin is a Jeonju Yi surname holder and CTS682, he may not be descended from the Yi royal family?

MacUalraig
07-19-2017, 03:45 PM
Does anyone know what the OP meant by the bolded statement? I've asked twice but don't think they've seen it. I'm not sure if they mean. OP states that CTS682 has been found outside of the Jeonju Yi royal cluster and that most of these are not Jeonju Yi surname holders. So is the OP implying that despite the fact that my cousin is a Jeonju Yi surname holder and CTS682, he may not be descended from the Yi royal family?

The SNP takes primacy over any earlier STR modal so it may pull in people outside the latter. And might exclude some inside it likewise. But i doubt there is a 1 to 1 relationship between the SNP and a particular family unless a sibling line was used in the proof like with the Stewarts where they isolated a SNP within the family.

Hando
07-19-2017, 05:59 PM
The SNP takes primacy over any earlier STR modal so it may pull in people outside the latter. And might exclude some inside it likewise. But i doubt there is a 1 to 1 relationship between the SNP and a particular family unless a sibling line was used in the proof like with the Stewarts where they isolated a SNP within the family.
Sorry but as I'm not that well versed in STRs and SNPs I'm not following. Are you saying that even though someone may belong to SNP CTS682 associated with the Jeonju Yi surname group, they may not actually descend from the Jeonju Yi royal lineage because CTS682 may include people with STRs that mark them as non Jeonju Yi?

MacUalraig
07-19-2017, 06:57 PM
Then you need to acquire understanding of the difference. SNPs form reliable groupings due to their very slow mutation rates. If you are cts682+ you are related to other such people.

Before the last few years analysts used to group testers via STRs. We now have a large body of evidence that STRs can produce both false positive and false negative results when measured against the SNP benchmarks. So focus on the SNP results not STR groupings and get anyone of interest who has only done STR testing to follow up with the appropriate confirming SNP.

Hando
07-20-2017, 04:35 AM
Then you need to acquire understanding of the difference. SNPs form reliable groupings due to their very slow mutation rates. If you are cts682+ you are related to other such people.

Before the last few years analysts used to group testers via STRs. We now have a large body of evidence that STRs can produce both false positive and false negative results when measured against the SNP benchmarks. So focus on the SNP results not STR groupings and get anyone of interest who has only done STR testing to follow up with the appropriate confirming SNP.
Thanks for the explanation.
1)So you're stating that an individual claiming to belong to the Jeonju Yi surname cluster based on their STR results is unreliable? And that even though an individual such as my cousin who has the surname of Jeonju Yi and also has genealogical records claiming descent from the Jeonju Yi, the surest way of confirming this genetically is to test the SNP of a sibling line that also claims descent from the Jeonju Yi? Much in the same way the Stewart's did when they tested a sibling line thereby isolating their SNP?

2) And if so, then does this negate the claim that the Jeonju Yi modal or cluster has been located?
Thanks

MacUalraig
07-20-2017, 06:21 AM
Thanks for the explanation.
1)So you're stating that an individual claiming to belong to the Jeonju Yi surname cluster based on their STR results is unreliable? And that even though an individual such as my cousin who has the surname of Jeonju Yi and also has genealogical records claiming descent from the Jeonju Yi, the surest way of confirming this genetically is to test the SNP of a sibling line that also claims descent from the Jeonju Yi? Much in the same way the Stewart's did when they tested a sibling line thereby isolating their SNP?

2) And if so, then does this negate the claim that the Jeonju Yi modal or cluster has been located?
Thanks

No, with the Stewarts they located a SNP within the overall family by testing descendants of two medieval brothers. This means that the SNP they found can by definition be linked to just one branch of that specific surname.

http://www.s781.org/

I don't have specific knowledge of your project eg how old is the SNP you speak of, what is the correlation between SNP and the surname you refer to etc. But it is very 'old school' now to talk about grouping based on STRs as invariably they are all linked to a definitive SNP. In which case test the SNP.

Hando
07-20-2017, 07:51 AM
No, with the Stewarts they located a SNP within the overall family by testing descendants of two medieval brothers. This means that the SNP they found can by definition be linked to just one branch of that specific surname.

http://www.s781.org/

I don't have specific knowledge of your project eg how old is the SNP you speak of, what is the correlation between SNP and the surname you refer to etc. But it is very 'old school' now to talk about grouping based on STRs as invariably they are all linked to a definitive SNP. In which case test the SNP.

If groupings based on STRs is old school it would appear that Rhad's claim that his colleague found the cluster for the Jeonju Yi cluster or modal via STR is incorrect.
Thanks for the link regarding S781+. Very interesting. If only it was possible to test the remains of my cousin's lineage founder. I suppose that is the only way to determine the relevant SNP. Unfortunately, this is prohibited by law.

Hando
07-23-2017, 02:41 AM
Sahaliyan since Rhad has not answered my question to his comments perhaps you could? I ask you since your friend is the Daum forum owner who found the Yi Modal.
Rhad said
"I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate."

With regards to the above bolded sentence from Rhad's post, could you please explain what he meant? He seems to be saying that there are some Koreans who are CTS682 but are not from the surname Jeonju Yi.
Is Rhad saying that despite the fact that my cousin is a Jeonju Yi surname holder and CTS682, he may not be descended from the Yi royal family?
Thanks

sahaliyan
07-23-2017, 05:59 AM
Sahaliyan since Rhad has not answered my question to his comments perhaps you could? I ask you since your friend is the Daum forum owner who found the Yi Modal.
Rhad said
"I suggest you join cafe.daum.net/molanthro if you can read Korean. Sahaliyan knows the owner of that forum. The forum requires a daum ID with age verification so you may have to ask a family member or a friend who lives in Korea or came from Korea less than 10 years ago. Several people of the former O2b line did Big Y already and they do not appear in YFull. So you will get a lot of information about your clan and they will do the full analysis for you. But you need to be able to read Korean.

They do not have as much info about your cousin's clan, so called "Yi Seongye Modal". But you will get big thanks from them for providing the Big Y result because the owner of that forum was the first one to guess Choson Royal Family's Y lineage probably correctly. CTS682 has other members outside Yi Modal and they are mostly not Jeonju Yi. Ebizur's claim that it came from Lelang commandery is most likely bogus since it is incompatible with the age estimate."

With regards to the above bolded sentence from Rhad's post, could you please explain what he meant? He seems to be saying that there are some Koreans who are CTS682 but are not from the surname Jeonju Yi.
Is Rhad saying that despite the fact that my cousin is a Jeonju Yi surname holder and CTS682, he may not be descended from the Yi royal family?
Thanks
There are some Koreans are CTS682 and not Jeonju Lee,but their number is very few,based on your cousin's family history,I think he is Jeonju Lee

Hando
07-23-2017, 06:29 AM
There are some Koreans are CTS682 and not Jeonju Lee,but their number is very few,based on your cousin's family history,I think he is Jeonju Lee
Ok thanks for the explanation I finally got. Rhad did not answer my question so I appreciate yours. So what must I do now to find out 100% that my cousin is descended from Jeonju Yi Songye? MacUalraig commented in the above posts that the Stewarts found their SNP is S781. He said talking about surname cluster groupings based on STR is old way and not reliable. He says every surname grouping is linked to specific SNP. Your Korean friend who is the Daum forum member thinks he found Yi Songye Modal but this is only based on STR and not SNP so maybe it's old style and not reliable? As you know it is culturally prohibited to test DNA of Yi Songye and Sejong etc.

Hando
07-23-2017, 11:11 AM
There are some Koreans are CTS682 and not Jeonju Lee,but their number is very few,based on your cousin's family history,I think he is Jeonju Lee

2) Second point is that CTS682 is much older than 600 years so it cannot be the Yi Songye Modal since some non Jeonju Yi are CTS682. So why does your friend from Daum think CTS682 is Jeonju Yi Songye Modal?

Ebizur
07-23-2017, 11:53 AM
2) Second point is that CTS682 is much older than 600 years so it cannot be the Yi Songye Modal since some non Jeonju Yi are CTS682. So why does your friend from Daum think CTS682 is Jeonju Yi Songye Modal?I think we have explained this before. He means that O-CTS682 should turn out to have a subclade marked by a certain SNP (analogous to S781 in the case of the Stuarts) that is strictly carried by direct patrilineal descendants of Yi Seonggye. O-CTS682 itself is a somewhat older clade, and it seems to include some individuals (e.g. that purported descendant of Rai Kuniyuki in Japan) who are probably not descendants of Yi Seonggye, but who may nevertheless share a common patrilineal ancestor with Yi Seonggye back in the time of Goryeo or Later Silla (or even earlier than that).

Hando
07-24-2017, 03:21 PM
There are some Koreans are CTS682 and not Jeonju Lee,but their number is very few,based on your cousin's family history,I think he is Jeonju Lee
Why does your Korean friend who is the Daum forum member think he found Yi Songye Modal? Is this only based on STR and not SNP?

miroki
08-03-2017, 03:11 AM
Hi Yseq tested me positive for CTS723. But Yseq tested me negative for A12446 and Y26376. So I assume I belong to an unknown subclade of CTS723?
What can I test next? Does it make sense to do a Big Y test?
My main motivation is to know more about the Neolithic, Bronze Age etc history of my SNP and Haplogroup. Can anyone help?
Thanks

Hi I am CTS723* (YFull kid id: YF06888) and I am Han Chinese.
Could you please consider uploading your data to YFull so that it can be calculated how many years ago we shared the common ancestor?

miroki
08-03-2017, 03:13 AM
don't know if your into mtDNA too but:
NA18561
Han Chinese in Beijing
O-CTS723*
mtDNA F1d

Hi I am the other CTS723* (YF06888)
Do you happen to know how to get in touch with NA18561? I haven't run into any other CTS723* so I am anxious to find another!

Thank you in advance!

Hando
04-10-2018, 07:19 AM
Hi I am CTS723* (YFull kid id: YF06888) and I am Han Chinese.
Could you please consider uploading your data to YFull so that it can be calculated how many years ago we shared the common ancestor?

PM sent. I do not know how to upload to Y Full.

miroki
04-10-2018, 10:21 AM
PM sent. I do not know how to upload to Y Full.

Hello cousin! lol

Apparently I am not qualified to send a PM yet. So I'm replying to you here.

I was wondering if you missed my reply. would you consider use YFull's paid service ($49) to have your data analyzed? They would put you in an appropriate place on their Hapo Tree, or even a new subgroup if the existed subgroup doesn't apply. If you decide to do it, you would need to acquire your BAM data first. I have no experience with Yseq, maybe you could consult with their customers service. then you can go to yfull.com and register. You would be asked to pay and upload your BAM. It would take them a while (one or two months? i can't remember the exact time I waited) to process your data.

I hope I made myself clear. Please contact me if you need further assistance.

cheers!

Hando
04-10-2018, 12:00 PM
Hello cousin! lol

Apparently I am not qualified to send a PM yet. So I'm replying to you here.

I was wondering if you missed my reply. would you consider use YFull's paid service ($49) to have your data analyzed? They would put you in an appropriate place on their Hapo Tree, or even a new subgroup if the existed subgroup doesn't apply. If you decide to do it, you would need to acquire your BAM data first. I have no experience with Yseq, maybe you could consult with their customers service. then you can go to yfull.com and register. You would be asked to pay and upload your BAM. It would take them a while (one or two months? i can't remember the exact time I waited) to process your data.

I hope I made myself clear. Please contact me if you need further assistance.

cheers!

Hello! Sorry I only checked this forum section today and saw your comments. Yes I think Y Full's paid service for data analysis will be a good idea. But even if I do, does it mean we will be guaranteed a new subgroup position with just our 2 data?

cydevil
11-05-2018, 09:43 AM
nevermind

miroki
02-03-2019, 05:39 AM
Hello! Sorry I only checked this forum section today and saw your comments. Yes I think Y Full's paid service for data analysis will be a good idea. But even if I do, does it mean we will be guaranteed a new subgroup position with just our 2 data?

There's no guarantee of any kind, I'm afraid. The bottom line is you will find your place on the tree, and it will evolve as more ppl upload their data.

Hando
04-28-2019, 12:39 PM
The erstwhile royal family of Joseon (i.e. the kingdom that existed on the Korean Peninsula from 1392 until being renamed 大韓帝國 "Great Han Empire" in 1897) appears to belong to O-CTS682. That does not necessarily mean that all extant members of O-CTS682 are descended from that royal family. In other words, the so-called "Jeonju Yi cluster" may be just a subset of a broader haplogroup O-CTS682.

O-Y31255, an older haplogroup from which O-CTS682 is derived, is represented on YFull by an individual from Fujian, an individual from Sichuan, and an individual from Tokyo with an estimated TMRCA of 9,100 ybp. An even more divergent lineage belonging to O-F3451(xY31255) is represented on YFull by HG02050, a Kinh (i.e. a so-called "ethnic Vietnamese") sampled in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam; the TMRCA of this Vietnamese lineage and the aforementioned Chinese and Japanese members of O-Y31255 is estimated to be 11,100 ybp. Chao Ning et al. 2015 estimated a coalescence time of 8,170 ± 1,280 years for their set of twelve O-F3451 Y-chromosomes of Han Chinese (six from East China, four from North China, and two from South China) based on a genealogically observed Y-STR mutation rate published by Ge J et al. ("Mutation rates at Y chromosome short tandem repeats in Texas populations") in 2009. Unfortunately, I think you will be hard-pressed to find any data regarding the age or the geographic or ethnic distribution of O-CTS682 in the literature.
Hi, does anyone read Korean? Halfway down this blog (please click link below), the blogger discusses the Jeonju Lee Royal family cluster and suggests it is CTS2272, as we've been discussing above. However, he also seems to be suggesting that other haplogroups such as ; O1b2a1a2a1a
and O1b2a1a2-K4
are also claiming to be Jeonju Lee royal family. Can anyone confirm whether this is the current situation or if he is mistaken?
https://tol6560.tistory.com/15
Thanks

Hando
04-28-2019, 04:41 PM
Additionally, on the Korean blogger’s link https://tol6560.tistory.com/15
the blogger says Jeonju Lee sub-clan 해안군파 is O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682
My mother’s cousin who is also O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682 is from another Jeonju Lee sub-clan.
So we can see that two separate sub-clans of Jeonju Lee royal cluster are from the same Jeonju Lee royal cluster.
However, Jeonju Lee sub-clan덕천군파 is O1b2a1a2a1a-CTS7620
and Jeonju Lee sub-clan 양녕대군파 is O1b2a1a2-K4
So who is legit and who isn't?

Ebizur
04-30-2019, 04:21 AM
Hi, does anyone read Korean? Halfway down this blog (please click link below), the blogger discusses the Jeonju Lee Royal family cluster and suggests it is CTS2272, as we've been discussing above. However, he also seems to be suggesting that other haplogroups such as ; O1b2a1a2a1a
and O1b2a1a2-K4
are also claiming to be Jeonju Lee royal family. Can anyone confirm whether this is the current situation or if he is mistaken?
https://tol6560.tistory.com/15
ThanksI had a hard time getting past the fact that he has repeatedly referred to "Lake Baikal" as "Lake Pascal" (파스칼호 Paseukal-ho instead of 바이칼호 Baikal-ho). Besides that, he does not seem to mention anything of much import that has not been mentioned in a relevant article on English Wikipedia; what little apparently original information he has provided is of dubious authenticity, such as maps of haplogroup distribution authored by "gaya47z."

I cannot definitively answer the question of which Y-DNA lineage is the proper lineage of the royal family of the kingdom of Joseon (1392 CE - 1897 CE). However, I can say from glancing at publicly available East Asian Y-DNA and surname data that the signal-to-noise ratio is very low. I suppose that a great percentage of present-day Koreans may bear "adopted" surnames and genealogies rather than authentic, "biological" ones.

Hando
05-03-2019, 10:03 AM
There are some Koreans are CTS682 and not Jeonju Lee,but their number is very few,based on your cousin's family history,I think he is Jeonju Lee

In this 2018 Korean blogger’s link https://tol6560.tistory.com/15
the blogger says Jeonju Lee sub-clan 해안군파 is O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682
My mother’s cousin who is also O2a2b1a2b1a2-CTS682 is from another Jeonju Lee sub-clan.
So we can see that two separate sub-clans of Jeonju Lee royal cluster are from the same Jeonju Lee royal cluster.
However, Jeonju Lee sub-clan덕천군파 is O1b2a1a2a1a-CTS7620
and Jeonju Lee sub-clan 양녕대군파 is O1b2a1a2-K4
So who is legit and who isn't?30261
Additionally, here is a graph from another blogger from 2017 who says the Jeonju Lee royal cluster is F2125. It is in Korean, but it is the first sample (first line) from Kataoka, Osaka. Is F2125 below CTS682.>CTS2272? So now whe have a blogger from 2018 who says it is not clear which is the true Jeonju Lee royal cluster haplogroup and another blogger from the previous year (2017) who says the Jeonju Lee royal cluster is F2125. Very confusing....:confused:

Hando
05-03-2019, 10:13 AM
Also, here is another graph from a blog from 2014/2013? which says the Jeonju Lee royal cluster is indeed CTS2272
The graph shows the 12 STRs of 10 Jeonju Lee samples. The first line is my mother's cousin's 12 STR 30262

Ebizur
05-04-2019, 11:55 PM
Also, here is another graph from a blog from 2014/2013? which says the Jeonju Lee royal cluster is indeed CTS2272
The graph shows the 12 STRs of 10 Jeonju Lee samples. The first line is my mother's cousin's 12 STR 30262The current version of the YFull tree has listed CTS682 and CTS2272 as phylogenetically equivalent SNPs attested in three samples: NA19083 (an individual from the JPT or Japanese in Tokyo sample of the 1000 Genomes Project), YF15244 (a commercially-tested individual who has registered his place of origin as Kanagawa, Japan), and SRS954747 (analysis in progress, so this sample's precise position may be confirmed in the next update of the YFull tree; other samples on the YFull tree that bear the SRS prefix are from South Korea, so one might presume on this basis that the source of SRS954747 is also an individual from South Korea). The two Japanese members of this clade share a MRCA about 2,100 (95% CI 1,150 <-> 3,500) years before present according to the current version of the YFull tree; the estimated TMRCA of the O-CTS682/CTS2272 clade may be updated soon depending on the phylogenetic relationship that pertains among the Japanese samples and the (presumably) South Korean sample.

F2125, on the other hand, is listed as one of the SNPs marking O-CTS682/CTS2272's parent clade. Besides Japanese & Korean O-CTS682/CTS2272, this parent clade, O-A16615/F2125, includes two commercially-tested Chinese samples, one registered as having an origin in Shandong and the other registered as having an origin in Fujian. The two Chinese samples form a clade, O-Y85894, which is a sister clade to O-CTS682/CTS2272. YFull estimates a TMRCA of 2,400 (95% CI 1,650 <-> 3,400) years before present for these two Chinese members of O-Y85894. The TMRCA of the entire O-A16615/F2125 clade, including both O-CTS682/CTS2272 and O-Y85894, is estimated to be 6,800 [95% CI 5,500 <-> 8,100] years before present.

Hando
05-05-2019, 09:18 AM
30300According to the graph which shows the 12 STRs of 10 Jeonju Lee samples, all 10 of the samples belong to the same CTS682/CTS2272 cluster.
However, we don't know when their common paternal ancestor lived. If their ancestor lived before 1392, which is when the Joseon dynasty was founded, their common paternal ancestor could be Taejo who is the founder of the dynasty. However, if their common paternal ancestor lived after 1392, does this mean my mother’s cousin’s ancestor (or any one of the other 9 samples' ancestor) may not be Taejo? If so, this could mean my mother’s cousin does not belong to Joseon royal family cluster?

cydevil
05-11-2019, 12:25 AM
YDNA haplogroup of individual Jeonju Lee samples are quite diverse, which include O1b2, O2, N and C. At this point, unless the Jeonju Lee clan itself conducts a comprehensive DNA test of its members or conducts DNA test of ancestral remains, any speculations on Jeonju Lee's true yDNA lineage is moot.

Hando
05-11-2019, 06:39 AM
YDNA haplogroup of individual Jeonju Lee samples are quite diverse, which include O1b2, O2, N and C. At this point, unless the Jeonju Lee clan itself conducts a comprehensive DNA test of its members or conducts DNA test of ancestral remains, any speculations on Jeonju Lee's true yDNA lineage is moot.

Could you please refer me to the literature which proposes that Jeonju Lee samples include O1b2, O2, N and C? Thanks.

cydevil
06-06-2019, 07:25 AM
Could you please refer me to the literature which proposes that Jeonju Lee samples include O1b2, O2, N and C? Thanks.

Results are from private individual tests posted in a Korean public forum where genetics of Koreans and related information are posted and discussed.

Hando
06-06-2019, 12:10 PM
Results are from private individual tests posted in a Korean public forum where genetics of Koreans and related information are posted and discussed.
Thanks. Is this screenshot from Daum cafe one of the papers/posts you’re referring to?
30817

cydevil
06-08-2019, 12:01 AM
Thanks. Is this screenshot from Daum cafe one of the papers/posts you’re referring to?
30817

No, it's cafe.daum.net/molanthro

Hando
06-08-2019, 05:19 AM
No, it's cafe.daum.net/molanthro
Thanks for the info. Is this one of the papers/posts on cafe.net/molanthro that you’re referring to?30856

cydevil
06-14-2019, 02:54 PM
Thanks for the info. Is this one of the papers/posts on cafe.net/molanthro that you’re referring to?30856

Yes, it is.