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View Full Version : Ancestry from Iberia or just shared Celtic heritage?



bryan
07-24-2017, 03:23 PM
I score 15% Iberian on Ancestry DNA yet I don't have any known ancestors from there. I looked up the history of Iberia and Western Europe and I came to the conclusion that once West and Central Europe had significant Celtic speaker population which seems to explain why I score Iberian as a signal of shared deep heritage not actual ancestry from there.

https://image.ibb.co/ezk4qQ/ancestry.jpg

Celt-Iberian people were probadly just the same or similar to those who lived in Central Europe.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/13/41/06/134106dc1cbdef22016adb940cbc22dc.jpg

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 05:09 PM
Where are your ancestors from? I think Iberia is a good proxy for Celtic/Roman (Mediterranean). So it can be found anywhere where Celts and Romans mixed, from England to Switzerland. My Dad is 100% Wallonian Belgium and he received 10% Iberian and only 4% Italian. Since he speaks French I'm assuming the Iberian is more of the Roman influence than his Italian score. I don't think the Spanish Hapsburg control over Belgium for 100 years affected the gene pool of the peasants so I presume it comes from earlier Roman occupation.

My mother who is 100% French Canadian scored 32% Iberian and only 15% Italian. Once again it appears that in areas that were conquered by Rome like France Iberian is more dominant than Italian.

bryan
07-24-2017, 05:27 PM
Where are your ancestors from? I think Iberia is a good proxy for Celtic/Roman (Mediterranean). So it can be found anywhere where Celts and Romans mixed, from England to Switzerland. My Dad is 100% Wallonian Belgium and he received 10% Iberian and only 4% Italian. Since he speaks French I'm assuming the Iberian is more of the Roman influence than his Italian score. I don't think the Spanish Hapsburg control over Belgium for 100 years affected the gene pool of the peasants so I presume it comes from earlier Roman occupation.

My mother who is 100% French Canadian scored 32% Iberian and only 15% Italian. Once again it appears that in areas that were conquered by Rome like France Iberian is more dominant than Italian.

Both my parents were born in Hungary and I get a lot matches from Slavic speakers so I possibly have ancestors from Poland, Czech Slovakia and the surrounding regions.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-24-2017, 05:37 PM
Iberian may mean Basque which I think can reflect older ancestry, before the Celts. I get it all the time (Basque) and I'm British. John

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 05:49 PM
I believe part of Hungary up to the Danube River was under Celtic and Roman occupation in ancient times.

Amerijoe
07-24-2017, 05:50 PM
Iberian may mean Basque which I think can reflect older ancestry, before the Celts. I get it all the time (Basque) and I'm British. John

I used to think of myself as a Scot, not so sure now. Various results have pushed and pulled me across the Isles. I'm technically a Scot/Irish/English/Welshman whose mixture changes with each test I take. Because we're cousins, I also show Basque. :) Joe

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 06:10 PM
Iberian may mean Basque which I think can reflect older ancestry, before the Celts. I get it all the time (Basque) and I'm British. John

I used to think Iberian could be a proxy for Basque, Vasconic, or pre Indo European. However, if that were the case I think people in the U.K. would score higher than the average 5%. Also, I don't think it would push all the way to Hungary at 15%. I think there is a direct correlation between Roman influence in Europe and Iberian percentages.

ArmandoR1b
07-24-2017, 06:22 PM
My mother who is 100% French Canadian scored 32% Iberian and only 15% Italian. Once again it appears that in areas that were conquered by Rome like France Iberian is more dominant than Italian.

Have you tested her at 23andme? It would be interesting to see what she gets there since so far I have only seen Basques, Iberians, and Latin Americans get 30% or more Iberian DNA. Southern French also get a lot of Iberian DNA at 23andme but I don't think that they get more than 15% Iberian DNA.

sweuro
07-24-2017, 06:26 PM
I used to think Iberian could be a proxy for Basque, Vasconic, or pre Indo European. However, if that were the case I think people in the U.K. would score higher than the average 5%. Also, I don't think it would push all the way to Hungary at 15%. I think there is a direct correlation between Roman influence in Europe and Iberian percentages.
Why Roman ? Roman and Iberian are different things. There is already an Italian component for Roman.

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 06:45 PM
Iberian may mean Basque which I think can reflect older ancestry, before the Celts. I get it all the time (Basque) and I'm British. John


Have you tested her at 23andme? It would be interesting to see what she gets there since so far I have only seen Basques, Iberians, and Latin Americans get 30% or more Iberian DNA. Southern French also get a lot of Iberian DNA at 23andme but I don't think that they get more than 15% Iberian DNA.

I have not scored her at 23andMe but I have scored myself. On Ancestry I'm 25% Iberian and 3% Italian. On 23andMe I'm 10.8% Southern European of which 0.8% is Iberian, 0.7% Sardinian, 0.3% Italian, and 9% Broadly Southern.

ArmandoR1b
07-24-2017, 06:53 PM
I have not scored her at 23andMe but I have scored myself. On Ancestry I'm 25% Iberian and 3% Italian. On 23andMe I'm 10.8% Southern European of which 0.8% is Iberian, 0.7% Sardinian, 0.3% Italian, and 9% Broadly Southern.

Since 23andme uses phasing then your results could change if you tested her. Most of your Southern European not being identified as Iberian in your results is telling and looks to be more accurate than AncestryDNA and is partly why I like 23andme more.

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 06:53 PM
Iberian may mean Basque which I think can reflect older ancestry, before the Celts. I get it all the time (Basque) and I'm British. John


Have you tested her at 23andme? It would be interesting to see what she gets there since so far I have only seen Basques, Iberians, and Latin Americans get 30% or more Iberian DNA. Southern French also get a lot of Iberian DNA at 23andme but I don't think that they get more than 15% Iberian DNA.


Why Roman ? Roman and Iberian are different things. There is already an Italian component for Roman.

My theory is that modern Italian is not a good proxy for ancient Roman, and that Italy lacks the Celtic component found in Spain, France, and Belgium. Rome conquered Iberia prior to Gaul. When I say Roman I don't mean someone from Italy but anyone from the Roman Empire. Maybe the Roman citizens and soldiers that occupied Gaul for 450 years came from Iberia and were a Celtic/Mediterranean mix as opposed to Italy. Both of my parents speak French because of Rome's influence in Europe. Odd that I would score 25% Iberian and only 3% Italian if modern Italians were a good proxy for Ancient Rome.

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 07:53 PM
I've taken 6 DNA tests and I've noticed some similarities. That I'm 90% Western European and 10% Ambiguous. Furthermore this 90% Western European can be broken down into around 65% Northwestern or Celtic/Germanic and 25% Southwestern or Celtic/Roman(Mediterranean). I think this is due to the northern half of France being more Celtic/Germanic and the Southern half being more Celtic/Mediterranean. Some companies like Ancestry, Gene Plaza, and Wegene identify this distinction. While other companies like FTDNA, 23andMe, and Natgeo do not. Here are my various scores as proof:

FTDNA:
West and Central Europe 90%
Southeast Europe 10%

23andMe:
Northwestern European 86.1%
Broadly European 3.1%=89.2%
Southern European 10.8%

Natgeo:
Western and Central Europe 44%
Great Britain and Ireland 39%
Scandinavia 2%
Eastern Europe 5%=90%
Jewish Diaspora 3%
Southern Europe 3%
Asia Minor 3%=9%

Ancestry:
Europe West 47%
Scandinavia 13%
Great Britain 6%=66% northwest
Iberian(Southwestern) 25%
= 91% Western
Low Confidence Region: 9%

GenePlaza:
Northwest European 66.7%
Southwest European 24%
= 90.7% Western
Ambiguous 9.3%

Wegene:
French (northwestern) 63.68%
English 0.45%= 64.13%
Spanish (Southwestern) 25.82%
=89.95% Western
Other: 10.05%

ArmandoR1b
07-24-2017, 09:19 PM
Personally I think that the Iberian at AncestryDNA is still misleading even if considered to be from Celts. If it's from the Celts it shouldn't be found more commonly in Iberia than outside of Iberia since their homeland wasn't in Iberia although there were Celtiberians. Celts were all over western Europe so it should be labeled simply as western European.

I also question the accuracy of these companies claims for the DNA to be from the time periods that they do. To me it just means that when they use smaller chunks it gives a different result but it lacks proof that it's because it's from older populations. They have an easy out since there is insufficient ancient DNA to reliably be used as reference datasets to determine the accuracy. So then it becomes subjective as to whether or not we want to believe their results or that the results are a proxy for a population such as the Celts.

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 09:45 PM
I don't think Iberian is a proxy for just Celtic. That's why the Irish don't get high Iberian percentages. It's a proxy for Celtic/Roman which could be found in all areas of their ancient empire. However, in the last 2000 years because of Germanic migrations certain areas of the previous Roman Empire like Northern Belgium are far more Celtic/Germanic than Celtic/Roman anymore. The Romans brought Mediterranean DNA all the way to the Rhine and Danube rivers.

ArmandoR1b
07-24-2017, 10:20 PM
I don't think Iberian is a proxy for just Celtic. That's why the Irish don't get high Iberian percentages. It's a proxy for Celtic/Roman which could be found in all areas of their ancient empire. However, in the last 2000 years because of Germanic migrations certain areas of the previous Roman Empire like Northern Belgium are far more Celtic/Germanic than Celtic/Roman anymore. The Romans brought Mediterranean DNA all the way to the Rhine and Danube rivers.I still don't see any logic for it being labeled Iberian. Whenever labels are applied to a set of DNA results they are done based on the population that it occurs at the highest frequency. If it's partially due to Celtic DNA then the Celtic portion should be labeled Irish. There is nothing from the Roman Empire for their DNA to be found at a higher frequency in Iberia than in the rest of Europe unless Hispania was the major source of soldiers for the empire which I don't think is the case. Iberia also had a reduction of their Celtic and Roman DNA, which would have been two different components, from the Berbers/Moors so it isn't like Iberia was able to better conserve Roman period DNA. This leads me to believe that AncestryDNA just has a less accurate calculator plain and simple.

mwauthy
07-24-2017, 11:17 PM
I agree about the labeling. I don't like using modern nationalistic borders to represent ancient cultures because of all the population movements around Europe over the previous several thousand years. I also think it's misleading to say your ancestors were born there just because they might have ancient DNA similarities. I just thought it might be helpful for someone with ancestors from Hungary to see how they might have some ancient DNA similarities with people from France and Spain

Jessie
07-25-2017, 06:46 AM
I don't think Iberian is Celtic. I personally think the Ireland category on Ancestry is more related to old Celtic or Bell Beaker populations. On my Ancestry breakdown I get 91% Ireland but no Iberian. All my ancestry is Irish. Not saying that Irish are the measure of Celtic but it does appear to correlate with the older populations in Britain, Ireland and Northern France to a certain degree. I know some Iberians can get a certain percentage of the Ireland category which I think is a better indicator of Bell Beaker / Celtic. This is just my interpretation from the results I've seen.

I think percentages of Iberian in people like the English, Dutch etc is measuring excess Farmer. I know that on 23andMe Iberian is highest in the Basque people.

sweuro
07-25-2017, 12:48 PM
It's probably represents chalcolithic-like DNA (which are like farmers but with much higher levels of WHG), and Basques can be modeled as 1/2 that and 1/2 Central-North BA cultures.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-25-2017, 05:25 PM
Personally I think that the Iberian at AncestryDNA is still misleading even if considered to be from Celts. If it's from the Celts it shouldn't be found more commonly in Iberia than outside of Iberia since their homeland wasn't in Iberia although there were Celtiberians. Celts were all over western Europe so it should be labeled simply as western European.

I also question the accuracy of these companies claims for the DNA to be from the time periods that they do. To me it just means that when they use smaller chunks it gives a different result but it lacks proof that it's because it's from older populations. They have an easy out since there is insufficient ancient DNA to reliably be used as reference datasets to determine the accuracy. So then it becomes subjective as to whether or not we want to believe their results or that the results are a proxy for a population such as the Celts.

It was quite interesting that a previous discussion here a while back seemed to indicate that people from Northern Europe had more hunter gatherer and less farmer than those from the South generally speaking and vice versa.
I do wonder myself whether there is quite a significant amount of pre-celtic period DNA still in the mix in various parts of Europe. I do think maybe we tend to over-simplify descriptions e.g. "Celtic" for the sake of convenience. John

JerryS.
07-25-2017, 06:26 PM
wouldn't ancient DNA not common to a certain area be bred out by now if not kept going by the usual carriers of such DNA? I mean Iberian DNA would be bred out of Celtic people if it was from a long time ago unless it got repeated over and over.....right? unless its not ancient in origin but rather closer to your own time line.

vettor
07-25-2017, 07:03 PM
My theory is that modern Italian is not a good proxy for ancient Roman, and that Italy lacks the Celtic component found in Spain, France, and Belgium. Rome conquered Iberia prior to Gaul. When I say Roman I don't mean someone from Italy but anyone from the Roman Empire. Maybe the Roman citizens and soldiers that occupied Gaul for 450 years came from Iberia and were a Celtic/Mediterranean mix as opposed to Italy. Both of my parents speak French because of Rome's influence in Europe. Odd that I would score 25% Iberian and only 3% Italian if modern Italians were a good proxy for Ancient Rome.

The only good proxy for italian with ancient Rome IMO, would be Rome and Naples regions ( lazio and campania ) with abruzzo as well ..........the rest can be excluded

bryan
07-25-2017, 08:20 PM
According to Geneplaza my results are:

1.3% Ambiguous
25.2% Eastern Mediterranean
52.5% North Slavic
14.2% Southwestern European
5.5% Northwest European

Edit: I tried to upload my data to Wegene but it fails to accept it for some reason

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-25-2017, 09:01 PM
wouldn't ancient DNA not common to a certain area be bred out by now if not kept going by the usual carriers of such DNA? I mean Iberian DNA would be bred out of Celtic people if it was from a long time ago unless it got repeated over and over.....right? unless its not ancient in origin but rather closer to your own time line.

I'm certainly no expert on this but maybe the answer to your question seems to be no. :) We can match DNA to specific individuals who lived a very long time ago. Our ancestors' DNA didn't spring out of thin air 6 or 10 generations ago, it all goes back a long way. I think the issue is if you go back 10 generations you have over 1,000 ancestors, go back 11 and you have over 2,000. I think maybe what we are seeing are patterns in certain populations sort of a background DNA "soup". If everything got so "blended" way back in the past we wouldn't be able to pick out many differences at all.
From what I see, my guess is certain genetically isolated modern populations, relatively speaking, may reflect an older DNA ancestry to a greater extent than others. I'm all recent British ancestry as far as I know but I get SW Asia (Kalash etc.), Sardinian, Native American, Basque etc. quite often, which can't realistically be down to recent ancestry. Why this "older" DNA shows up in some people but not others in a particular country, I don't know. John

mwauthy
07-26-2017, 04:21 AM
According to Geneplaza my results are:

1.3% Ambiguous
25.2% Eastern Mediterranean
52.5% North Slavic
14.2% Southwestern European
5.5% Northwest European

Edit: I tried to upload my data to Wegene but it fails to accept it for some reason

14.2% is very close to 15% so obviously Ancestry and Gene Plaza are seeing the same thing in your DNA that they are labeling as Iberian or Southwestern. At first I thought my 25% on Ancestry was an error. However, when I saw Gene Plaza and Wegene give me the same results I knew it was not a random mistake.

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 08:51 PM
Both my parents were born in Hungary and I get a lot matches from Slavic speakers so I possibly have ancestors from Poland, Czech Slovakia and the surrounding regions.

Hope you don't mind if i add your results into my survey?
AncestryDNA results from across Europe (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11572-AncestryDNA-results-from-across-Europe)

For what it's worth i have sofar observed 3 Italian results with >10% Iberian Peninsula scores on Ancestry, i suspect atleast two of them are from northern Italy but i'm not sure.