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farjanomar
10-18-2020, 10:38 PM
Once i get my the results and they place me in cluster table, i will then ask the Somali Project Manager to transfer my youngest Snp from Y-SEQ

(E-BY203771).

Omaar
10-26-2020, 09:01 AM
What about E-Z21175? it is a new in the E-V32 Ytree and it is the sistar clade of E-Y17859.



E-Z813:
:E-Z21175: Ethiopian and Kenyan? Will most Oromos have this subclade?
:E-Y17859: North Sahara and Somali? I added North Sahara because there is a Libyan and Egyptian with this? Maybe the Beja have this clade as well?

E-Y28701:
:E-V5933: Central Sahel - Chadic & Maban-Fur?
:E-Y17750: Ethiopian? Could those Arabs have Habesha ancestry from the Abyssinian occupation of South Arabia? A Tigray and a Yemeni match rather close.

Overall, it is clear that E-V32 must have been born somewhere around North Sudan. Only logical way to connect these distant groups and with the E-V12 guys upstream.

I have feelings that, some somali male may carry haplogroup E-Z21175 and they are probably assimilated Oromo. I think E-Y17859 is restricted to somalis, while E-Z21175 is restricted to Oromo. "The somali and Oromo people live in clans with special patterns of marriage and the Somali and Oromo people have complex, interwoven pedigrees.". It is also plausible that, the libyan, who share same haplogroup E-BY8085 with the somali, is somali in origin. His ancestors went to arabia long time ago, then with the spread of islam, he ended up to north Africa.

I doubt any Somali male will come out with an Oromo marker but the other way around is far more likely.Oromos did assimilate Western Somali clans and the Garre, they also integrated them pretty well while the clans that Somalis integrate always keep the Sheegaato title.We might find Oromo Y-DNA among those dual identity clans like the Jaarso,Akisho,Garre and the Gurgure.


We have now somali E-Z21175*. It is getting exciting :)
I hope he will upload his results to Yfull. Z21175* is found as an AncientDNA from Kenya.

NetNomad
10-27-2020, 08:14 AM
We have now somali E-Z21175*. It is getting exciting :)
I hope he will upload his results to Yfull. Z21175* is found as an AncientDNA from Kenya.

The more Somalis test, the more unique lineages will be found.

I guess this explains the higher TMRCA based of older STR studies (as some Somalis are E-Z21175) compared to the lower E-Y18629 TMRCA.

farjanomar
11-02-2020, 12:11 AM
Hi Guys.

Things are getting interesting in my 23andme relative list. They have just added a J2 Somali, its my first to see a J2 Somali.
J-M67.

NetNomad
11-05-2020, 01:57 AM
Hi Guys.

Things are getting interesting in my 23andme relative list. They have just added a J2 Somali, its my first to see a J2 Somali.
J-M67.

I got a J2 relative before. But he had trace amounts of South Asian..

I don't think there are any other Eurasian paternal lineages in Somalis prior to Islam other than T1 and J1.

diini95
11-25-2020, 06:15 PM
Hi I have the same maternal Haplogroup as you and my Paternal haplogroup is E-V32 got my results today.

diini95
11-25-2020, 08:26 PM
Hi Guys.

Things are getting interesting in my 23andme relative list. They have just added a J2 Somali, its my first to see a J2 Somali.
J-M67.
Hi I have the same maternal Haplogroup as you and my Paternal haplogroup is E-V32 got my results today.

NetNomad
11-26-2020, 11:37 AM
Hi

If you want to know which subclade of E-V32 you have, have a look at this Black Friday sale:

https://www.dantelabs.com/collections/advanced-dna-tests

With that 30x whole genome test you can upload to yfull and get your further lineage.

Your username says Diini. Are you by any chance Reer Diini, Marehan?

diini95
11-27-2020, 05:39 AM
If you want to know which subclade of E-V32 you have, have a look at this Black Friday sale:

https://www.dantelabs.com/collections/advanced-dna-tests

With that 30x whole genome test you can upload to yfull and get your further lineage.

Your username says Diini. Are you by any chance Reer Diini, Marehan?

Thanks I will check it out. No Im Reer aw Xasan then Reer aw Cilmi but within our clan there is Reer aw Diini.

farjanomar
11-27-2020, 08:37 AM
Hi friends.

Sorry i was on holiday and did not have enough time to update you.

So, this is what happened: After receiving my Y12 results, i did not have matches, then i ordered Y37 and then the results

came-no matches again. felt little sad this time. Finally i said heck with money and savings, ordered both Y111 and Big Y700.

farjanomar
11-27-2020, 08:40 AM
This my order:



41422

diini95
11-27-2020, 09:40 AM
This my order:

Are you also testing your Mtdna haplogroup or just Y haplogroup?

NetNomad
11-27-2020, 10:04 AM
Thanks I will check it out. No Im Reer aw Xasan then Reer aw Cilmi but within our clan there is Reer aw Diini.

Ah okay. There aren't many people from your clan who have done Y-Chromosome tests. You might get a rare version of E-Y18629.


Are you also testing your Mtdna haplogroup or just Y haplogroup?

His order is for Big Y. This only tests your Y-Chromosome. However, Dante Labs includes both. Maternal lineages are kind of uninformative for clan history research because every clan has multiple MTs and there isn't really a regional différentiation. The same ones are found all over. Moreover, you most likely will not get any matches on FamilyTreeDNA because only a few Somalis are on there. You can mostly only match against some academic samples from previous studies.

diini95
11-27-2020, 11:03 AM
Ah okay. There aren't many people from your clan who have done Y-Chromosome tests. You might get a rare version of E-Y18629.



His order is for Big Y. This only tests your Y-Chromosome. However, Dante Labs includes both. Maternal lineages are kind of uninformative for clan history research because every clan has multiple MTs and there isn't really a regional différentiation. The same ones are found all over. Moreover, you most likely will not get any matches on FamilyTreeDNA because only a few Somalis are on there. You can mostly only match against some academic samples from previous studies.

I understand you are right there isn't many of my clan who have done Y chromosome Test

drobbah
11-30-2020, 01:45 AM
How often does the yfull tree update? Still haven't received my age estimation...

farjanomar
12-01-2020, 12:42 AM
How often does the yfull tree update? Still haven't received my age estimation...


Its taking too long for update, don't know why.

farjanomar
12-01-2020, 12:46 AM
Did you guys see the E-Z21175 positive Somali at Ftdna Somali Project?

farjanomar
12-01-2020, 12:54 AM
Btw anyone interested to see my results, my kit# is B679308. I am in both Somali and E-35 Ftdna projects.

NetNomad
12-01-2020, 11:24 AM
Sometimes yfull updates every two months. I think around 10 December they may publish the new tree.

I think the bigger their tree becomes, the longer it will take. Maybe they will qo quarterly next year.

drobbah
12-02-2020, 06:25 AM
Did you guys notice the E-M35 ftdna project group together that Port Sudan sample with the the Saudi E-BY8100 samples who are all part of the same 7ubaish clan of the Hijaz.

I wonder if the Somali ancestor went to Sudan was assimilated by an Arab or Beja clan first and later some of his descendants went across to the Hijaz or the other possibility is the Somali ancestor arrived in the Hijaz and was assimilated by the Hubaish clan and later a descendant arrived in Sudan lol.

Also one of the three Qatari E-Z813 took the bigY it seems and is currently assigned to E-BY64848 which is a subclade of E-Z820 branch which also has one Somali member.

Edit: There's a new E-BY75676 individual on ftdna too, probably another Habar Awal or possible other Isaaq subclan

Omaar
12-03-2020, 08:55 AM
My mistake!. It was same results, just in another dna project!.

drobbah
12-05-2020, 07:14 AM
Is it possible E-Z813 originated in Egypt/Sudan instead of the Horn and represents a later push into the Horn of Africa? We have a confirmed Upper Egyptian Z813* and I have just come across another unconfirmed Z813+ Sudanese (might be Beja).

farjanomar
12-08-2020, 07:44 AM
I have received all results except Big Y700. Just received Y111 tonight. The problem is my Terminal
SNp for now is only E-M35. Also i don't have matches so far.

Awaiting Lab Results:
Big Y-700 Y700 1143 02/08/2021 - 02/22/2021
Y-HAP-Backbone Backbone 1143 12/28/2020 - 01/11/2021

NetNomad
12-08-2020, 03:59 PM
I have received all results except Big Y700. Just received Y111 tonight. The problem is my Terminal
SNp for now is only E-M35. Also i don't have matches so far.

Awaiting Lab Results:
Big Y-700 Y700 1143 02/08/2021 - 02/22/2021
Y-HAP-Backbone Backbone 1143 12/28/2020 - 01/11/2021

There is a small chance you are intermediary between E-Y163928 and E-Y163949 (potentially missing one or two SNPs of the Y163949 group).

But who knows for sure.. we shall see.

farjanomar
12-09-2020, 02:04 AM
@NetNomad

Yeah bro, That makes sense, i am can of unique in my Group. Lets see when i get my full Big Y results.

NetNomad
12-11-2020, 03:08 AM
drobbah

I e-mailed Yfull about why they haven't updated for so long and they told me that they will update in December. :violin:

farjanomar
12-15-2020, 07:56 AM
Do you guys know why my Big Y Raw data is ready before they give me ny Big Y results? is't normal?

i was just looking at upgrade, and then i saw that.

farjanomar
12-15-2020, 07:59 AM
Another new E-BY8081 Somali uploaded to Yfull tree today.

drobbah
12-15-2020, 08:49 AM
Is E-Y18637 older or younger than the formation of the Somali ethnic group? And can we really be sure that E-Y17859 is a proto-Somali lineage when the only sample that is E-Y17859* is from an Upper Egyptian?

Farroukh
12-15-2020, 03:34 PM
Y18629 as downstream of Y17859 is more suitable candidate for the role of the Progenitor (~3 kyo). Also it corellates with period of divergence of Lowland Eastern-Cushitic into Somali/Saho/Afar dialects.

drobbah
12-15-2020, 04:26 PM
I agree but I also think E-Y18637 in particular represent those who were originally Af-Maay speakers (distinct language from Somali) while the other two branches represent the Northern E-V32 Af-Maxay Tidhi (regular Somali) Somali speakers (Darood E-Y163928 & possibly Dir E-BY155996)

farjanomar
12-15-2020, 10:12 PM
@drobbah We will know more in the next 3-4 months inshaAllaah. So far, this month, many People have taken advantage of Dante Labs Sale.
We should have a good year in 2021 for Somali big Y tree. Imo at least 25-50 People. We did a lot Big Y awareness this year.

NetNomad
12-18-2020, 11:38 AM
Looks like E-BY155996 is 850 ybp?

drobbah
12-18-2020, 11:45 PM
Looks like E-BY155996 is 850 ybp?
I think it's older than that considering me and Almagest have 15 snps that we don't share.I think that tmrca is more appropriate for downstream E-BY75676

farjanomar
12-19-2020, 01:36 AM
Finally Yfull tree update!

drobbah
12-19-2020, 05:12 AM
Not really, they still haven't assigned me and Almagest under our correct subclade.

drobbah
12-20-2020, 11:09 PM
So Yfull updated and fixed the tree and it seems it's official me and the Habar Awal share a tmrca roughly around 850 years ago.According to abtirsi I count 15 names to Muuse (father of Cisse & Sacad), so the geneological and yfull's tmrca doesn't really align.We clearly are one clan but our shared roots are older than we thought before, perhaps some names were forgotten when they forged a genealogy to Sheikh Isaaq. Interesting enough the Isaaq T formed roughly in the same time period, perhaps this was the point when the two camps decided to create a new political identity

Farroukh
12-21-2020, 03:54 AM
Yfull's tree will be updated and corrected in two weeks. Now it has many mistakes due to system fail.

P. S. "Abtirsi" is Somalian word for "genealogical tree" (shajara in Arabic)?

drobbah
12-21-2020, 04:22 AM
Yfull's tree will be updated and corrected in two weeks. Now it has many mistakes due to system fail.

P. S. "Abtirsi" is Somalian word for "genealogical tree" (shajara in Arabic)?
Abtirsi is the paternal lineage of a somali, it literally means ab (father) -tirsi (count)

NetNomad
12-22-2020, 01:10 PM
On the live tree one of the new samples (YF79923) got a new subclade, E-Y227096. However, abtiris-wise should be closer to kit YF72457. :P The E-Y227096 SNP also has a 4/5 yfull rating, so unlikely to be statistical coincidence. It looks like even at this deep level that Somali abtiris may not perfectly match genetics.

farjanomar
12-22-2020, 10:50 PM
On the live tree one of the new samples (YF79923) got a new subclade, E-Y227096. However, abtiris-wise should be closer to kit YF72457. :P The E-Y227096 SNP also has a 4/5 yfull rating, so unlikely to be statistical coincidence. It looks like even at this deep level that Somali abtiris may not perfectly match genetics.


E-BY8081 had already a sub-clade on FTDNA-E-BY217865 could that be same as E-Y227096?

E-M35>M78>V12>V32>Y15945>Z813>Y17859>Y18629>E-Y18637>E-BY8081>E-BY217865.

drobbah
12-25-2020, 08:09 PM
Has anyone seen Dir (non-Isaaq) E-V32 results? I've heard rumors of possible biyomaal E-V32.If those are true then I would assume the Ashraaf E-BY155996 individual perhaps got it from them as it is clear that there's no way he got it from the Hawiye as they fall under a different subclade.

E-BY75676 = Habar Awal/Isaaq E-V32, probably formed around the time Isaaq T seperated from Dir T.

Upstream E-BY155996 = possible minority E-V32 lineage among the Dir and spread south with arrival of the southern Dir???

NetNomad
12-26-2020, 04:51 PM
Has anyone seen Dir (non-Isaaq) E-V32 results? I've heard rumors of possible biyomaal E-V32.If those are true then I would assume the Ashraaf E-BY155996 individual perhaps got it from them as it is clear that there's no way he got it from the Hawiye as they fall under a different subclade.

E-BY75676 = Habar Awal/Isaaq E-V32, probably formed around the time Isaaq T seperated from Dir T.

Upstream E-BY155996 = possible minority E-V32 lineage among the Dir and spread south with arrival of the southern Dir???

There are some of them on 23andMe. I think I have one as a distant cousin (Biyomaal), I'll try to recommend to him to do one of the cheaper Y-STRs as an intro to this.

farjanomar
12-26-2020, 11:01 PM
Has anyone seen Dir (non-Isaaq) E-V32 results? I've heard rumors of possible biyomaal E-V32.If those are true then I would assume the Ashraaf E-BY155996 individual perhaps got it from them as it is clear that there's no way he got it from the Hawiye as they fall under a different subclade.

E-BY75676 = Habar Awal/Isaaq E-V32, probably formed around the time Isaaq T seperated from Dir T.

Upstream E-BY155996 = possible minority E-V32 lineage among the Dir and spread south with arrival of the southern Dir???




No Ethnic Somali Clan is going to be anything 100% weather E-V32 or T1. They have been so many assimilation/confederations since the founding of the
original Clans, as we can now see in the Somali Y-DNA results.

Just like there is going to be T Darood and hawiye minority, there is also going to be E-V32 Dir minority.

drobbah
12-26-2020, 11:10 PM
No Ethnic Somali Clan is going to be anything 100% weather E-V32 or T1. They have been so many assimilation/confederations since the founding of the
original Clans, as we can now see in the Somali Y-DNA results.

Just like there is going to be T Darood and hawiye minority, there is also going to be E-V32 Dir minority.
There hasn't been a confirmed Darood T just like there hasn't been a single confirmed Isaaq/Dir J1, we are not all the same and that's not what I am talking about anyways.I'm trying to see if there's a dir specific E-V32 subclade but we will need the minority E-V32 from Dir clans to get tested and we still need the non-HA Isaaq E-V32 carriers to take the BigY. E-BY155996 seems like a good candidate to potentially be the E-V32 lineage found among some of the Southern Dir.

farjanomar
12-27-2020, 01:31 AM
Yes, Darood have been comfimed to have some T. It was posted on 23andme 4 months a go a Darood-Ogaden T.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/com...es_can_anyone/

I did post the link about 4 months. And i was the one who asked him if he is Isaaq or Dir since he got T.

he is our conversation:
4 months ago
Very cool results, i also got my results today, but i am E-V32 Somali, you belong to

T Somali. Are you Dir or Isaaq? They got the most T1A.

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ladavirus9
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4 months ago
I’m darod.

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Interestingwukaa4166
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4 months ago
Cool. I am also Darood-Harti-Geesi guule.

what section?

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ladavirus9
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4 months ago
I’m an Og.

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Interestingwukaa4166
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Cool.

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farjanomar
12-27-2020, 01:46 AM
Plus, their was a study in Shilabo town Somali Ethiopia region, where 50% those tested were HG T. I am assuming that town

is Populated by Darood-ogaden. I haven't seen it, but it was mentioned here. I am still looking for it. Although while looking for it, i saw

the Djibouti study.

Darood being maternally Dir, there have lot history together. It's logical for some Dir to have been assimilated.

diini95
12-27-2020, 02:34 AM
Plus, their was a study in Shilabo town Somali Ethiopia region, where 50% those tested were HG T. I am assuming that town

is Populated by Darood-ogaden. I haven't seen it, but it was mentioned here. I am still looking for it. Although while looking for it, i saw

the Djibouti study.

Darood being maternally Dir, there have lot history together. It's logical for some Dir to have been assimilated.

I believe My father was born in Shilabo most of my clan live around that region.

drobbah
12-27-2020, 03:50 AM
Plus, their was a study in Shilabo town Somali Ethiopia region, where 50% those tested were HG T. I am assuming that town

is Populated by Darood-ogaden. I haven't seen it, but it was mentioned here. I am still looking for it. Although while looking for it, i saw

the Djibouti study.

Darood being maternally Dir, there have lot history together. It's logical for some Dir to have been assimilated.
It seems Darood are more of the assimilators unlike Dir or Isaaq.Entire Isaaq subclans seem to be more or less homogeneous in their paternal haplogroups, this is why I think the E-V32 Dir will be of my subclade and so will the other Isaaq non-Habar Awal E-V32 males.That would make the Dir clan exclusively two lineages with males like myself probably being assimilated once the Dir T males arrived from the Arabian Peninsula to the Northern Somali seaboard.

NetNomad
12-27-2020, 04:46 PM
It seems Darood are more of the assimilators unlike Dir or Isaaq.Entire Isaaq subclans seem to be more or less homogeneous in their paternal haplogroups, this is why I think the E-V32 Dir will be of my subclade and so will the other Isaaq non-Habar Awal E-V32 males.That would make the Dir clan exclusively two lineages with males like myself probably being assimilated once the Dir T males arrived from the Arabian Peninsula to the Northern Somali seaboard.

If I were to speculate, I think that the Ogaden/Absame sub-clan probably has the most different genetic sub-lineages among the Darod. The other ones are generally more geographically concentrated and have less of a expansion history. It would not surprise me if some Northwestern Ogadens/Absames were E-BY155996-related.

drobbah
01-04-2021, 01:27 AM
They finally updated the correct tmrca's, Sa'ad Musa & Isa Musa have a tmrca of 800 ybp and it seems the Isaaq T's tmrca got older, they now have a tmrca of 1000 ybp

NetNomad
01-05-2021, 03:35 AM
There is a new E-Y18637* guy. Looks like E-Y18637 is probably the most frequent direct subclade of E-Y18629 if I were to guess from the little data we have.

farjanomar
01-05-2021, 03:16 PM
@NetNomad

Does that mean, he got basal E-Y18637 and, does not have downstream SNP?

drobbah
01-05-2021, 03:21 PM
All the current subclades are about 2700 year old.Does this age make sense according to linguistics?

Awale
01-05-2021, 05:19 PM
All the current subclades are about 2700 year old.Does this age make sense according to linguistics?

No, not really. From what I recall, Af-Maxaa (Somali proper of the four main clans) cut off from Af-Maay just like 1,500-2,000ybp. So if one is trying to tie all the Somali E-Z813 sublineages to Somali linguistics one might expect a TMRCA no older than 2,000ybp.

drobbah
01-05-2021, 05:54 PM
No, not really. From what I recall, Af-Maxaa (Somali proper of the four main clans) cut off from Af-Maay just like 1,500-2,000ybp. So if one is trying to tie all the Somali E-Z813 sublineages to Somali linguistics one might expect a TMRCA no older than 2,000ybp.
The ages of the Somali subclades on yfull will probably get younger and align more with linguistics.I think E-Y18637 will represent the proto-Somaal (Af-maxay and af-maay) with E-BY192465 representing the af-maay and their Northern Somalianized descendants, the other two branches found in Isaaq (possibly Dir) and many Daroods will represent the local cushitic inhabitants of modern Somaliland who were perhaps also Somalianized.We have evidence of non-ethnic Somalis living in places like Awdal/Gabiley and possible near the Hargeisa area (Aw-Barkhadle) like the Harla who could have also been cushitic people themselves.Obviously this is all just speculation and I have nothing to back this lol

Awale
01-05-2021, 11:53 PM
The ages of the Somali subclades on yfull will probably get younger and align more with linguistics.I think E-Y18637 will represent the proto-Somaal (Af-maxay and af-maay) with E-BY192465 representing the af-maay and their Northern Somalianized descendants, the other two branches found in Isaaq (possibly Dir) and many Daroods will represent the local cushitic inhabitants of modern Somaliland who were perhaps also Somalianized.We have evidence of non-ethnic Somalis living in places like Awdal/Gabiley and possible near the Hargeisa area (Aw-Barkhadle) like the Harla who could have also been cushitic people themselves.Obviously this is all just speculation and I have nothing to back this lol

Of course, brother. I was speculating a whole lot too when I first mentioned all this. It's not totally baseless, as you know. There is some linguistics and possible auDNA signals to back it up (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21050-When-did-the-Ethiosemites-receive-their-semitic-admixture&p=688668#post688668) but we'll see if the Y-DNA can someday align with it. I really wish I had the cash to sample at least 100 dudes from every subclan in Somaliweyn and resolve all this pronto but for now we'll have to wait.

Deftextra
01-06-2021, 12:45 AM
Of course, brother. I was speculating a whole lot too when I first mentioned all this. It's not totally baseless, as you know. There is some linguistics and possible auDNA signals to back it up (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21050-When-did-the-Ethiosemites-receive-their-semitic-admixture&p=688668#post688668) but we'll see if the Y-DNA can someday align with it. I really wish I had the cash to sample at least 100 dudes from every subclan in Somaliweyn and resolve all this pronto but for now we'll have to wait.


Is there any information on when Af-Marka (Sometimes called af-mahdoonthe) evolved as its own language? It is spoken exclusively in Marka on my mothers side of the family. It is sometimes referred to as a dialect of Somali, but grammatically they can be very different and are not mutually intelligible. Academically it is referred to as Af-Ashraaf but we don't call it that.

Awale
01-06-2021, 01:24 AM
Is there any information on when Af-Marka (Sometimes called af-mahdoonthe) evolved as its own language? It is spoken exclusively in Marka on my mothers side of the family. It is sometimes referred to as a dialect of Somali, but grammatically they can be very different and are not mutually intelligible. Academically it is referred to as Af-Ashraaf but we don't call it that.

I have seen it around in academia as Af-Ashraaf as well but have not quite seen it in any trees or its divergence dates being divulged. I'll email some people like Diriye Abdullahi and Ehret and get back to you when they reply and do some digging in the meantime.

drobbah
01-07-2021, 10:24 PM
Of course, brother. I was speculating a whole lot too when I first mentioned all this. It's not totally baseless, as you know. There is some linguistics and possible auDNA signals to back it up (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21050-When-did-the-Ethiosemites-receive-their-semitic-admixture&p=688668#post688668) but we'll see if the Y-DNA can someday align with it. I really wish I had the cash to sample at least 100 dudes from every subclan in Somaliweyn and resolve all this pronto but for now we'll have to wait.
If Somalis originated in or around the Southern parts of the Somali region of Ethiopia and then migrated North most probably to the Sanaag region.Do you think this is the point when Somalis adopted the camel and the old non-arabic Arabian loanwords? If that's the case why are the Rendille also primarily camel herders with some of the same core of old Arabian loanwords with the black headed Somali sheep doesn't this negate this southern hypothesis that Somalis and our linguistic cousins originated in South Somalia or Southern Ethiopia?

NetNomad
01-14-2021, 02:22 PM
If Somalis originated in or around the Southern parts of the Somali region of Ethiopia and then migrated North most probably to the Sanaag region.Do you think this is the point when Somalis adopted the camel and the old non-arabic Arabian loanwords? If that's the case why are the Rendille also primarily camel herders with some of the same core of old Arabian loanwords with the black headed Somali sheep doesn't this negate this southern hypothesis that Somalis and our linguistic cousins originated in South Somalia or Southern Ethiopia?

If Southern Somalis primarily only get E-Y18637 and there is more E-Y18629* in North-Central Somalis then the South-to-North Somali language origin hypothesis has serious troubles.

drobbah
01-16-2021, 02:23 PM
If Southern Somalis primarily only get E-Y18637 and there is more E-Y18629* in North-Central Somalis then the South-to-North Somali language origin hypothesis has serious troubles.
I think the proto-Somaloids (all macro Somali languages/Eastern Omo Tana) broke off the Konso-Oromo node in Ethiopia and migrated to Eastern Somaliland in a similar route of how the Akichu/Akisho arrived in Somaliland and from there various waves re-expanded south from Sanaag 2000 years ago with the main push probably by E-Y18637 macro-Somali speakers.I think only with the arrival of other Daroods and possibly Dir clans in the last few centuries is when E-Y163928 (darood) & E-BY155996 (minority dir lineage) arrived alongside the T-BY181210 Dir Somalis.I would assume the Rendille would also carry the T-BY181210 like the Af maxay Somalis but will form a new subclade just upstream of them and perhaps their E-V32 will be a mix of the Oromo-Konso E-Y161124 and E-Y18637.



https://static.cambridge.org/binary/version/id/urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20190522054803538-0373:9781108283991:41798fig10_3.png?pub-status=live

The route of the Oromo migrations in the 16th century
42612

farjanomar
02-09-2021, 06:38 AM
Hi Guys! After long wait, i have finally received my FTDNA Terminal Clade. (same as with YSEQ result)

farjanomar
02-09-2021, 06:49 AM
43164

drobbah
02-10-2021, 08:28 PM
I have a str match with 37 strs with a similar genetic distance as my Sacad Muuse matches (difference of 3), he is from the Bariq tribe of SW Arabia.How accurate is 37 strs in predicting genetic relationships?

farjanomar
02-11-2021, 09:50 PM
@drobbah.

According to what i read, and what i observed, Strs are not 100% reliable, especially under 111 strs. That's why, People need Big Y
and SNPs resting to have 100% accuracy.

As you can see, Somali Strs are very close. even with the ones with different Sub-clades.

NetNomad
02-15-2021, 07:51 PM
Speculation:

The Mudug kit in E-Y227096 (Omar Mahmoud) could have gotten the Osman Mahmoud sub-lineage from this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Hobyo

drobbah
02-16-2021, 01:11 AM
They increased the Habar Awal tmrca from 800 to 900.I honestly think if that Ashraaf dude uploaded his results, HA tmrca would drop significantly like the Darood tmrca did

farjanomar
02-16-2021, 03:10 AM
Speculation:

The Mudug kit in E-Y227096 (Omar Mahmoud) could have gotten the Osman Mahmoud sub-lineage from this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Hobyo


I was wondering, what was happening with E-BY8081 sub-lineages. Omar and Osman with the same sub-lineage.

farjanomar
02-16-2021, 03:27 AM
They increased the Habar Awal tmrca from 800 to 900.I honestly think if that Ashraaf dude uploaded his results, HA tmrca would drop significantly like the Darood tmrca did


Yeah, They will keep changing the tmrca. I will add to the tmrca fun next week, when ftdna is ready with my BAM file.

farjanomar
02-16-2021, 03:33 AM
Its really disappointing, that, Non Isaaq and Harti-Somali Big Y tree is not growing or mostly non-existent.

NetNomad
02-17-2021, 09:20 PM
Its really disappointing, that, Non Isaaq and Harti-Somali Big Y tree is not growing or mostly non-existent.

Abtirsi culture is stronger in North and Central Somalis than in South Somalis, could be the reason. Prices are also still an issue.

farjanomar
02-20-2021, 03:57 PM
They have just added me to Yfull live tree ID #YF81361

drobbah
02-21-2021, 01:06 AM
Its really disappointing, that, Non Isaaq and Harti-Somali Big Y tree is not growing or mostly non-existent.
Even Isaaqs need more yfull results.So far only the two largest clans which are the Habar Awal & Garxajis have taken the BigY.We still need Habar Jeclo,Arap,Ayub and the mythical eldest brother of the clan Tol Jeclo.There's probably more E-V32 hiding among these clans and possibly other haplogroups.Habar Jeclo for sure has some E-V32 with one sample that is E-Z813 although he never took the BigY but judging by strs and sharing the first value of 12, I think he would be E-BY155996

Megatron
02-21-2021, 01:53 PM
Even Isaaqs need more yfull results.So far only the two largest clans which are the Habar Awal & Garxajis have taken the BigY.We still need Habar Jeclo,Arap,Ayub and the mythical eldest brother of the clan Tol Jeclo.There's probably more E-V32 hiding among these clans and possibly other haplogroups.Habar Jeclo for sure has some E-V32 with one sample that is E-Z813 although he never took the BigY but judging by strs and sharing the first value of 12, I think he would be E-BY155996

I’m E-V32 Isaac.

Megatron
02-21-2021, 01:59 PM
Abtirsi culture is stronger in North and Central Somalis than in South Somalis, could be the reason. Prices are also still an issue.

New revelations from genetic tests will not change the clan system nor the perception of Somalis.

drobbah
02-21-2021, 02:20 PM
I’m E-V32 Isaac.
Which subclan if you don't mind me asking?

Megatron
02-21-2021, 02:37 PM
Which subclan if you don't mind me asking?

I’m HJ.

Megatron
02-21-2021, 06:10 PM
I plan to do the BigY. I believe Isaac is equally split between E-V32 and T1a. All the major Isaac subclans contain E-V32 even those who are predominantly T1a.

Drobbah,
Can’t send PM at the moment. I have additional info.

drobbah
02-21-2021, 06:20 PM
I plan to do the BigY. I believe Isaac is equally split between E-V32 and T1a. All the major Isaac subclans contain E-V32 even those who are predominantly T1a.

Drobbah,
Can’t send PM at the moment. I have additional info.
Right now we have a Sanbuur who is E-V16 (non cushitic haplogroup),I've heard of Arap of E-V22 as well.I think HA is the only dominant E-V32 subclan with your subclan being mixed between E-V32 & T.Ayuub and Tol Jeclo also seem to have T aswell.Isaaq is dominated by T (2/3 of the clan) while E-V32 males are probably a third (HA + some HJ) of the clan.

Megatron
02-21-2021, 06:54 PM
Right now we have a Sanbuur who is E-V16 (non cushitic haplogroup),I've heard of Arap of E-V22 as well.I think HA is the only dominant E-V32 subclan with your subclan being mixed between E-V32 & T.Ayuub and Tol Jeclo also seem to have T aswell.Isaaq is dominated by T (2/3 of the clan) while E-V32 males are probably a third (HA + some HJ) of the clan.

You’re right, E-V32 is the dominant lineage in HA.

It’s also important to note E-V32 among Garhajis as well. Both Eidagalla and HY. Among the HY E-V32 has been confirmed in individual cases from different sub clans so it’s not a coincidence.

Apart from E-V22 and E-V16, there’s also J1 Isaac.

My own personal theory is that Isaac is a pre Adal confederation initially created by two major divisions who were related to the ruling Walashma dynasty respectively. There are manuscripts verifying this relation. The minor lineages (E-V22, E-V16, J1) could be from soldiers, merchants or scholars etc incorporated when a cohesive clan identity emerged.

drobbah
02-21-2021, 09:03 PM
You’re right, E-V32 is the dominant lineage in HA.

It’s also important to note E-V32 among Garhajis as well. Both Eidagalla and HY. Among the HY E-V32 has been confirmed in individual cases from different sub clans so it’s not a coincidence.

I haven't seen any but I can believe CG can have a very small minority of E-V32 but I doubt the HY have any.HY were very strict and never absorbed others.


Apart from E-V22 and E-V16, there’s also J1 Isaac.
Never seen any J1 isaaq.Where did you find this J1 individual and what clan did he belong to?




My own personal theory is that Isaac is a pre Adal confederation initially created by two major divisions who were related to the ruling Walashma dynasty respectively. There are manuscripts verifying this relation. The minor lineages (E-V22, E-V16, J1) could be from soldiers, merchants or scholars etc incorporated when a cohesive clan identity emerged.
Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Ayuub & Arap) were mentioned in the Futuh and were one of the first clans to arrive to the Imam.So clearly this Isaaq and Habar Magaadle identity was pre-16th century.The Walashma were Harla or Harla related people that lived in Western Somaliland and were probably not related to us.We are probably an early medieval Somali expansion group from Eastern Somaliland.The Isaaq tombs are in Maydh and the tomb of the founder of Habar Awal is in Jidali (currently Dhulbahante town) all in Sanaag.

farjanomar
02-21-2021, 10:03 PM
@Megatron

Welcome sxb!

Megatron
02-21-2021, 10:42 PM
There are at least 5 E-V32 HY on 23andme and they’re from different subclans. So far there’s only one known E-V32 Eidagalla.

The individual is HJ from Burao and carries J-M267. There are also rumors of a J-P58 Isaac.

According to this Harari manuscript the Imam was the maternal uncle of Habar Magadle which explains why they were the first to answer his call. The Habar Magadle were also affiliated with Omar Walashma. The founder of Ifat. It’s not a coincidence that Siyara, the ancient capital of Ifat, is still inhabited by Isaac to this day.

43447

The translation..

43448

The tombs do not really prove anything because new tombs have been constructed in recent times for other patriarchs.

Btw, the Isaac clan used to be a coastal clan until quite recently. The eastern boundary of their land was most likely the coastal areas of western Sanaag.

Megatron
02-21-2021, 10:43 PM
@Megatron

Welcome sxb!

Thanks bro.

drobbah
02-21-2021, 11:11 PM
There are at least 5 E-V32 HY on 23andme and they’re from different subclans. So far there’s only one known E-V32 Eidagalla.

The individual is HJ from Burao and carries J-M267. There are also rumors of a J-P58 Isaac.

According to this Harari manuscript the Imam was the maternal uncle of Habar Magadle which explains why they were the first to call his answer. The Habar Magadle were also affiliated with Omar Walashma. The founder of Ifat. It’s not a coincidence that Siyara, the ancient capital of Ifat, is still inhabited by Isaac to this day.

43447

The translation..

43448

The tombs do not really prove anything because new tombs have been constructed in recent times for other patriarchs.

Btw, the Isaac clan used to be a coastal clan until quite recently. The eastern boundary of their land was most likely the coastal areas of western Sanaag.
The Futuh does mention that Maydh was Harti territory, so we were clearly more within the territory of Adal plus the first capital of Adal (Dakkar) is probably the site of Aw-Barkhadle where the progenitor of the Walashma dynasty is said to be buried.Sada in her recent book said she found ruins of ancient walled city nearby.

Maybe the HA E-BY155996 and also the E-V22 Arap are Somalianized Harla or local cushites who joined these Dir T1a Somalis to create a medieval clan.In the Futuh the Harla and Somalis are closely aligned although there was ethnic tensions between the two ethnicities.I think even the Harti
E-Y163928 seems to be Somalianized people as well.E-Y18637 is probably the true proto-Somali lineage and has the tmrca to back the claim as well.

I'm not surprised the J-P58 is from HJ considering the majority of the J1 found among Somalis are Hartis anyways plus I heard there was a clan of Yemenis who were recently assimilated among the HJ as well.J-P58 is the quintessential Arabian J1 clade unlike the Ethio-Semitic Horner restricted P56.

I have heard the rumors of a few Eastern HY with E-V32 but have never seen them, it's good that they can be confirmed.Perhaps they were assimilated Harti as well.The CG E-V32 probably belongs to the HA/Isaaq branch just like HA Gabriel's T belongs to the Dir/Isaaq branch

drobbah
02-21-2021, 11:16 PM
The Harari manuscript is inaccurate as the Imam had nothing to do with the Walashma dynasty.His ancestors were Beja who migrated and set up shop in Hubat during the reign of Sacad-diin.His own brother during the Jihad era was a Sultan of a small principality in Shewa and later joined his brother, he was called Suldaan Maxamed.

NetNomad
02-22-2021, 03:18 AM
New revelations from genetic tests will not change the clan system nor the perception of Somalis.

Might happen in a generation. Now it is completely unknown except to a small number of people.

Megatron
02-22-2021, 06:17 AM
The Futuh does mention that Maydh was Harti territory, so we were clearly more within the territory of Adal plus the first capital of Adal (Dakkar) is probably the site of Aw-Barkhadle where the progenitor of the Walashma dynasty is said to be buried.Sada in her recent book said she found ruins of ancient walled city nearby.

Maybe the HA E-BY155996 and also the E-V22 Arap are Somalianized Harla or local cushites who joined these Dir T1a Somalis to create a medieval clan.In the Futuh the Harla and Somalis are closely aligned although there was ethnic tensions between the two ethnicities.I think even the Harti
E-Y163928 seems to be Somalianized people as well.E-Y18637 is probably the true proto-Somali lineage and has the tmrca to back the claim as well.

I'm not surprised the J-P58 is from HJ considering the majority of the J1 found among Somalis are Hartis anyways plus I heard there was a clan of Yemenis who were recently assimilated among the HJ as well.J-P58 is the quintessential Arabian J1 clade unlike the Ethio-Semitic Horner restricted P56.

I have heard the rumors of a few Eastern HY with E-V32 but have never seen them, it's good that they can be confirmed.Perhaps they were assimilated Harti as well.The CG E-V32 probably belongs to the HA/Isaaq branch just like HA Gabriel's T belongs to the Dir/Isaaq branch

What the Harari manuscript confirms is that the Imam was the maternal uncle of Habar Magaadle, that Imam Ahmed and the Habar Magaadle commander Ahmed Guray were conflated into one character and that Habar Magaadle are also affiliated with the Walashma dynasty.

The Imam could very well be Beja. I’ve read somewhere that he was of mixed Beja/Arab origin.

I think all the Isaac E-V32 will belong to the same subclade just like their HG-T Isaac counterparts. One of the HY E-V32 is from the Ali Said subclan and they live in the middle of HY from Adaadley, Oodweyne, Ga’an Libah to Burao in central Somaliland. It’s impossible that it was acquired through assimilation from another non Isaac clan. Hopefully the BigY will shed light on this inshallah. It would also be interesting to know if Arap are predominantly E-V22. Then we have E-V16 found in some Ethiopians and Yemenis/Saudis. It would be interesting to know if the Sanbur brother belong to a Somali specific clade or Ethio, Yemeni/Saudi one.

Megatron
02-22-2021, 06:22 AM
Might happen in a generation. Now it is completely unknown except to a small number of people.

True.

Atlas
02-22-2021, 12:19 PM
I think I may know a possible E-V22 HY individual and I've just messaged him to confirm his subclan. He is, so far, the only E-V22 relative that I know of.

Edit: His subclan is actually Arap.

drobbah
02-22-2021, 07:16 PM
What the Harari manuscript confirms is that the Imam was the maternal uncle of Habar Magaadle, that Imam Ahmed and the Habar Magaadle commander Ahmed Guray were conflated into one character and that Habar Magaadle are also affiliated with the Walashma dynasty.
The Futuh Al Habasha did a good job of commenting about the blood-relations with the Imam.For example Geri Koombe's leader was married to the sister of the Imam.It didn't once mention that the Habar Magaadle chief was his nephew.Perhaps this was info not known to Shihabudiin (Arab Faqih), who knows!



The Imam could very well be Beja. I’ve read somewhere that he was of mixed Beja/Arab origin.
He's Beja (Balaw) according to the Futuh and came from a place north of Tigre.I wouldn't be surprised if the Imam was an E-V32 carrier considering how prevalent this haplogroup is among the modern Beja & Tigre.




I think all the Isaac E-V32 will belong to the same subclade just like their HG-T Isaac counterparts. One of the HY E-V32 is from the Ali Said subclan and they live in the middle of HY from Adaadley, Oodweyne, Ga’an Libah to Burao in central Somaliland. It’s impossible that it was acquired through assimilation from another non Isaac clan. Hopefully the BigY will shed light on this inshallah. It would also be interesting to know if Arap are predominantly E-V22. Then we have E-V16 found in some Ethiopians and Yemenis/Saudis. It would be interesting to know if the Sanbur brother belong to a Somali specific clade or Ethio, Yemeni/Saudi one.
If Western HY are getting minor E-V32 then it's probably the Isaaq/local variant of the region, you have to remember also an Ashraaf individual in the South also carries it aswell.E-V16 Saudis/Yemenis are just descendants of Horners and is an indigenous pre-Cushitic haplogroup of the Horn, the Sanbuurs male ancestors were survivors lol. Hopefully that E-V16 individual also takes the BigY alongside the other Isaaqs.The Dir E-V32 also need to take the BigY in order to get a better picture as their probable E-BY155996 subclade is currently 3000-2700 years old,

Megatron
02-22-2021, 08:47 PM
The Futuh Al Habasha did a good job of commenting about the blood-relations with the Imam.For example Geri Koombe's leader was married to the sister of the Imam.It didn't once mention that the Habar Magaadle chief was his nephew.Perhaps this was info not known to Shihabudiin (Arab Faqih), who knows!


He's Beja (Balaw) according to the Futuh and came from a place north of Tigre.I wouldn't be surprised if the Imam was an E-V32 carrier considering how prevalent this haplogroup is among the modern Beja & Tigre.


If Western HY are getting minor E-V32 then it's probably the Isaaq/local variant of the region, you have to remember also an Ashraaf individual in the South also carries it aswell.E-V16 Saudis/Yemenis are just descendants of Horners and is an indigenous pre-Cushitic haplogroup of the Horn, the Sanbuurs male ancestors were survivors lol. Hopefully that E-V16 individual also takes the BigY alongside the other Isaaqs.The Dir E-V32 also need to take the BigY in order to get a better picture as their probable E-BY155996 subclade is currently 3000-2700 years old,


The additional info describing the relation between the Imam and Habar Magadle is not from the Futuh, it’s based on old Harari (BaAlawi) manuscripts.

E-V16 is associated with the indigenous hunter gatherers of the Horn and we know that they crossed the Bab el-Mandeb strait in prehistoric times. What if the Sanbur acquired the lineage through a recent back migration?

BTW, I have a Magadle relative that I want to test.

farjanomar
02-22-2021, 09:04 PM
How much is Futah al habash book? I want buy it, what is fair price. Amazon says A-Hard Cover $70-80, B-Paper bag $30-35.

Megatron
02-24-2021, 05:12 PM
How much is Futah al habash book? I want buy it, what is fair price. Amazon says A-Hard Cover $70-80, B-Paper bag $30-35.

It’s a good investment if you’re interested in Somali history and the history of the greater Horn.

NetNomad
02-27-2021, 06:45 PM
Noticed age data is only lacking for the E tree, maybe because it is now one of the biggest trees they got?

https://www.yfull.com/tree-build-stats/

drobbah
03-02-2021, 07:16 PM
Noticed age data is only lacking for the E tree, maybe because it is now one of the biggest trees they got?

https://www.yfull.com/tree-build-stats/
Yfull responded on their site and said it will be fixed by next update.

About the ages of Hg E and some other subclades

In the last update of the YTree, an error occurred with calculating the Hg E age. We have removed the age display under Hg E for now. We have also removed the ages for individual branches such as: N-CTS142, R-YP469, O-F940, O-F16340, R-YP6213, O-Y206520, R-YP1210, N-Y23789, O-L682, Q-BZ2727, R-YP4364, N-CTS7324, R-YP1509, R-YP4932, R-YP5636, O-A16615, A-L981, R-YP1086, R-CTS1055, A-L1070, G-GG272, R-YP5512, R-YP1704, A-L1289, D-M64.1, C-M347, G-GG313, G-GG285, G-FGC12126, H-Z5868, H-Z14686, I-L1287, I-Y33719, J-ZS11633, J-Y22038, J-M339, J-Y108475, Q-BZ29, Q-L456, Q-B37, Q-B38, R-YP621, R-FT405055, R-YP5227, R-PF7536, R-S3238, R-S5168, R-YP5700, R-YP5725, R-Z193, R-PF6693, R-S1333, R-ZP21, R-L148, N-Y23747, O-F316. We think and hope that we will be able to completely fix this error and prevent a similar future only by the next update. Thanks for your patience and support.

Best regards, YFull Team

drobbah
03-06-2021, 04:27 AM
Just seen a Somali E-L677 and an Isaaq reer Hargeisa E-M78*.Don't know which subclan he belongs to but based on his grandparents birthplaces his either Habar Awal (Cisse Muuse),Garxajis (probably HY) or Arap

Also found an E-M183 (Berber origin) Somali who has traces amount of Arab Peninsular and Indian ancestry

drobbah
03-06-2021, 05:02 PM
The E-M78* dude is Arap from Hargeisa.

Megatron
03-07-2021, 03:33 PM
Just seen a Somali E-L677 and an Isaaq reer Hargeisa E-M78*.Don't know which subclan he belongs to but based on his grandparents birthplaces his either Habar Awal (Cisse Muuse),Garxajis (probably HY) or Arap

Also found an E-M183 (Berber origin) Somali who has traces amount of Arab Peninsular and Indian ancestry

Do you know if the E-L677 individual is a northerner or from the northern parts of the Somali region of Ethiopia? Plenty of E-L677 results among the Arap (Isaac).

drobbah
03-07-2021, 10:18 PM
Do you know if the E-L677 individual is a northerner or from the northern parts of the Somali region of Ethiopia? Plenty of E-L677 results among the Arap (Isaac).
Tha vast majority of my Somali matches are SL/PL,Ethiopia & Djibouti.I seen the other Arab E-L677 as a match as well.I think this E-L677 is Arap aswell but I will send a message asking him to confirm, hopefully he will respond.

farjanomar
03-08-2021, 08:56 PM
@[email protected]

Do you guys think, Arap E-V22 is looking like a trend, or is outlier?

drobbah
03-09-2021, 12:34 AM
@[email protected]

Do you guys think, Arap E-V22 is looking like a trend, or is outlier?
Majority of the Arab are probably E-V22 but there are probably others like the E-M78* Arab dude

drobbah
03-09-2021, 03:58 AM
A new sample from Sool uploaded on yfull under the Oromo-Konsoid branch of E-Z813 (E-Z21175*).

farjanomar
03-09-2021, 05:53 AM
i think, he is the same guy on ftdna Somali project z-820 dhulbahante.

drobbah
03-09-2021, 06:48 AM
i think, he is the same guy on ftdna Somali project z-820 dhulbahante.
Interesting, there's a few Qataris also under that same branch

NetNomad
03-09-2021, 03:47 PM
A new sample from Sool uploaded on yfull under the Oromo-Konsoid branch of E-Z813 (E-Z21175*).

Hmm, I am thinking that not all of E-Z21175 / E-Z820 is Oromoid in origin, perhaps only E-Y161124 is and there are rare Somaloid and (originally) South Cushitic branches in E-Z21175 / E-Z820 as well. We shall see what the TMRCAs bring.

NetNomad
03-09-2021, 03:56 PM
Any of you guys seen northern social minority* Y results? I think they may harbour some interesting rare lineages / sublineages.

*As in Yibir, Gaboye, Madhiban etc.

farjanomar
03-09-2021, 10:41 PM
Any of you guys seen northern social minority* Y results? I think they may harbour some interesting rare lineages / sublineages.

*As in Yibir, Gaboye, Madhiban etc.

I think, its going be difficult to find, Coz, they are themselves confederations, and might not have one Clan origin, maybe the Yibir might have one Clan origin, because of their presumed Asiatic origin.

They are there on 23andme, through sheegato though.

drobbah
03-09-2021, 11:45 PM
I think, its going be difficult to find, Coz, they are themselves confederations, and might not have one Clan origin, maybe the Yibir might have one Clan origin, because of their presumed Asiatic origin.

They are there on 23andme, through sheegato though.
These clans are confederation and Darood isn't it? And how is it difficult for a Tumaal or Yibir to take a 23andme test? There's a decent amount of them in the diaspora

farjanomar
03-09-2021, 11:49 PM
Hmm, I am thinking that not all of E-Z21175 / E-Z820 is Oromoid in origin, perhaps only E-Y161124 is and there are rare Somaloid and (originally) South Cushitic branches in E-Z21175 / E-Z820 as well. We shall see what the TMRCAs bring.

Yeah bro. It will be very interesting to see TMRCAs.

Did you guys notice, Oromos are Our SNP cousins of E-Z813, Not our SNP Siblings of E-17859, but the guys up in Sudan and Egypt are closer.
Does that mean both E-17859 and E-Z21175 were born in Sudan/Egypt?

Do you guys think, other Cushites carry the E-813, other than Somali E-17859 and Oromo E-Z21175?

farjanomar
03-10-2021, 12:55 AM
These clans are confederation and Darood isn't it? And how is it difficult for a Tumaal or Yibir to take a 23andme test? There's a decent amount of them in the diaspora

Not that deep bro. I am friends with them. Maybe i should have phrased another way. I was responding to OP. I also missed Part 1 about, if they have some other unique Y DNA, just went to a second part.



This is what i meant:

Part One.

I don't think, they carry anything other than Y Dna that Somalis have.


Part two.

Just like the Macro Clans are Confederations, even the Sub-Clans. The minority Clans are no different, especially after Big Y tests.

drobbah
03-10-2021, 01:54 AM
I think the Yibir and Tumaal will have some Ethiopian specific lineages but also some lineages common to Somalis and the major clans (like the Isaaq)

NetNomad
03-18-2021, 11:27 AM
It looks like E-Y17859 has a few more SNPs added to yfull because of the E-Z21175* Somali upload, this might lower the TMRCA of E-Y17859.

drobbah
03-28-2021, 04:40 PM
It looks like E-Y17859 has a few more SNPs added to yfull because of the E-Z21175* Somali upload, this might lower the TMRCA of E-Y17859.
If it gets younger then the Egyptian E-Y17859* is a Horner back-migrant to NE Africa

NetNomad
03-28-2021, 06:02 PM
If it gets younger than that Egyptian E-Y17859* is a Horner back-migrant to NE Africa

Could be. Most North Sudanese and Eritrean V32 being E-FGC14382 / E-Y193388 is kind of confusing. How E-Y17859* got to Egypt is a bit of a mystery.

drobbah
03-28-2021, 06:23 PM
Could be. Most North Sudanese and Eritrean V32 being E-FGC14382 / E-Y193388 is kind of confusing. How E-Y17859* got to Egypt is a bit of a mystery.
There's a North Sudanese and an Egyptian E-Z813* on ftdna but I think anyone that is downstream of Z813 is ultimately of East Cushitic origin tbh

farjanomar
04-01-2021, 08:13 PM
There's a North Sudanese and an Egyptian E-Z813* on ftdna but I think anyone that is downstream of Z813 is ultimately of East Cushitic origin tbh


Yeah, I think all those E-Z813 in Egypt and Sudan are East Cushitic tribes left behind.

farjanomar
04-01-2021, 08:20 PM
Good Info:

YSEQ has now almost all the Somali SNPs for their E-V12 Panel($88), but the one missing can be added, if one requested, as yhey say on their website.






http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32767

drobbah
04-01-2021, 10:06 PM
Yeah, I think all those E-Z813 in Egypt and Sudan are East Cushitic tribes left behind.
I don't think the E-Z813* are East Cushitic, but they are probably remnants of the proto-cushites, I think that we will find more E-Z813* Egyptians & Sudanese but the vast majority of the Beja for example I predict will fall under that Northern Horn/Nubian subclade of E-V32 tho.

That E-Y17859 Egyptian on the other hand is definitely a back-migrant descendant of an ancient East Cushite (incense trader??)

NetNomad
04-02-2021, 10:55 AM
Good Info:

YSEQ has now almost all the Somali SNPs for their E-V12 Panel($88), but the one missing can be added, if one requested, as yhey say on their website.


http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=32767

I think YSEQ's E-V12 panel test is only interesting for North-Eastern Somalis at this point. Maybe in the future with more Somaliland and South Somalia lineages being discovered it might become interesting for other Somalis.

Even cheaper is their single SNP test. Just $18.

Awale I think you might carry this subclade, would be cool if you can confirm:

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=128977

farjanomar
04-02-2021, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=NetNomad;762371]I think YSEQ's E-V12 panel test is only interesting for North-Eastern Somalis at this point. Maybe in the future with more Somaliland and South Somalia lineages being discovered it might become interesting for other Somalis.

But, its better than staying with E-V32, for those, who are not going to afford big Y test, and, are curous. They will at least get one of the 3 main branchs of Somali E-Y18629.


Even cheaper is their single SNP test. Just $18.

They will automatically add another SNp to the one ordered, they did to me. 18 will become $36.

farjanomar
04-06-2021, 02:01 AM
When is YFULL Update?

drobbah
04-09-2021, 05:22 PM
There are two other unknown E-BY75676 besides me & Almagest but can't seem to find them on ftdna.Has anyone seen these two individuals in a project perhaps?

farjanomar
04-10-2021, 12:34 AM
Very interesting, there is new Ajuuraan sample on ftdna, but, they have not placed him on the list yet. He is still in the SNPs page. He will be the first.
If ever, the so called Pre-Samaale hypothesis is to hold water. The Ajuuran should be the epitome Pre-Samaale, because during their Kingdom, the Somali People,
were called Aji and Ajuuran. There was always a debate about where in the Somali Clan Tree the aJuuraan fall.

farjanomar
04-11-2021, 03:47 AM
There are two other unknown E-BY75676 besides me & Almagest but can't seem to find them on ftdna.Has anyone seen these two individuals in a project perhaps?


Interesting. How do you know? are they, your big Y ftdna match, but, not in a ftdna project?

drobbah
04-11-2021, 03:54 AM
Interesting. How did you find them? are they, Your big Y ftdna match?
Nah I found them by going to my subclade's country statistics. We have a total of 4 samples including myself and my fellow Habar Awal who is the only person in my BigY matches page. I guess these two other unknown origin dudes decided to not opt in to matching which sucks. Hopefully they change their mind or decide to upload on yfull

drobbah
04-12-2021, 05:33 PM
Ftdna updated my haplogroup.I am now downstream of BY75676 and I'm now assigned downstream E-FT385910.The Cisse Muse fellow is still at BY75676, I think those unknown dudes were Sacad Muuse

farjanomar
04-13-2021, 02:21 AM
Ftdna updated my haplogroup.I am now downstream of BY75676 and I'm now assigned downstream E-FT385910.The Cisse Muse fellow is still at BY75676, I think those unknown dudes were Sacad Muuse

Congrats bro, with you new SNp.

I think, it will fishy if the other guys, don't want even join Yfull, Coz on Yfull a lot People just put their Country flag, not much information. how long since you first saw them?

drobbah
04-13-2021, 03:15 AM
Congrats bro, with you new SNp.

I think, it will fishy if the other guys, don't want even join Yfull, Coz on Yfull a lot People just put their Country flag, not much information. how long since you first saw them?
I never saw their kits, I just checked my subclade statistic recently and found that their were four of us but I never seen the other two as matches nor did they join projects.It's a shame these presumably Isaaqs don't want to share their origins or their clans while the Daroods have done a good job of networking and sharing clan info.

NetNomad
04-13-2021, 04:26 PM
Ftdna updated my haplogroup.I am now downstream of BY75676 and I'm now assigned downstream E-FT385910.The Cisse Muse fellow is still at BY75676, I think those unknown dudes were Sacad Muuse

Perhaps when YFull updates the new TMRCAs in a couple of weeks you can compare the SNP number starting from E-Y18629 to either E-FT18668 or E-BY8081 and from there guestimate how old your TMRCA is. It can be roughly accurate.

drobbah
04-14-2021, 03:45 PM
Perhaps when YFull updates the new TMRCAs in a couple of weeks you can compare the SNP number starting from E-Y18629 to either E-FT18668 or E-BY8081 and from there guestimate how old your TMRCA is. It can be roughly accurate.
I have 5 private variants which means there is a 5 snp difference between me and this Sacad Muuse individual.So,we probably have a tmrca between 135-500 ybp (330 ybp).The modern Somali cluster under E-FT18121 (subclade of E-Y17859) would be around 2600 ybp.

What's your opinion on E-BY8075 (brother clade of our Somali branch)? It has an Egyptian & a Saudi (if from Hijaz then it is ultimately of recent Egypto-Nubian origin as well)? Do you think E-Z813 might be a recent lineage from NE Africa as in the sense it arrived a lot later after the main waves of cushitic pastoralists? Perhaps we are part of the wave that brought Iranian_Chl/CHG into the Horn as this is what differentiates modern Horners from the PN samples as Mnemonics pointed out.We have an Egyptian & Sudanese Z813*, we also have an Egyptian E-Y17859*

farjanomar
04-16-2021, 05:23 AM
BY8075 might turn out to be big. There is at least 3 Saudis in E-M35 project. Its the Albadawi Tribe of Saudi Arabia, but i don't know, how many have it.

But, at least BY8075 is old and big enough to be in many places. I am intrigued by the young immigrant Somali BY8081 lineage showing up in multiple places. This is only 225 years old.

farjanomar
04-20-2021, 03:54 AM
Nearly perfect match for the Somali Banadiri cluster Haplogroup G. At Y37 marker 2 are 37/37 and 1 has a GD of just 1, so that means they have
the same ancestor who lived just 7-10 generations a go.

drobbah
04-20-2021, 04:10 AM
Those dudes are probably Ba'alawi who are Ashraaf from Hadhramawt.

drobbah
04-21-2021, 05:54 AM
There's a new kit (MK70064) that is probably E-BY155996+ and seems similar to the Habar Jeclo Isaaq individual and a Kuwaiti.I think DYS393=12 might be a unique E-BY155996+ str for Z813+ individuals.

Edit: The kit is Tumaal/Gaaboye who claim to be Dir (Muse dhariyo)

capsian
04-21-2021, 04:32 PM
Hi i have question outside this subject
is here anyone who know informatoin about branche E-V32 which moroccans

drobbah
04-21-2021, 04:36 PM
Hi i have question outside this subject
is here anyone who know informatoin about branche E-V32 which moroccans
The only Maghrebi that was E-V32 was a Libyan and he is under the Somali branch of the haplogroup.E-V32 in North Africa is restricted to Egypt & Sudan.

capsian
04-21-2021, 05:10 PM
The only Maghrebi that was E-V32 was a Libyan and he is under the Somali branch of the haplogroup.E-V32 in North Africa is restricted to Egypt & Sudan.

E-CTS693 is under E-V32 or E-V12

capsian
04-21-2021, 05:13 PM
The only Maghrebi that was E-V32 was a Libyan and he is under the Somali branch of the haplogroup.E-V32 in North Africa is restricted to Egypt & Sudan.

this guy what his people are, he is Berber or Tabou or Arabians Libyan

NetNomad
04-21-2021, 05:39 PM
this guy what his people are, he is Berber or Tabou or Arabians Libyan

The Libyan man has a 500-400 year old subclade found in other Somalis (E-BY8081). He is not on yfull but on FTDNA. Most likely it is from a Somali trader or student who went to Libya in the early modern period. Slavery is highly unlikely as the Somali clan associated with that subclade had a sultanate and formal/peaceful ties with Arabs.

It is a rare fluke with that guy. I think most other E-V32 Maghrebis will have sub-clades from Egyptians or Jordanians who went to the Maghreb instead. Maybe in some of the Arabized ones at low frequency.

capsian
04-21-2021, 06:07 PM
The Libyan man has a 500-400 year old subclade found in other Somalis (E-BY8081). He is not on yfull but on FTDNA. Most likely it is from a Somali trader or student who went to Libya in the early modern period. Slavery is highly unlikely as the Somali clan associated with that subclade had a sultanate and formal/peaceful ties with Arabs.

It is a rare fluke with that guy. I think most other E-V32 Maghrebis will have sub-clades from Egyptians or Jordanians who went to the Maghreb instead. Maybe in some of the Arabized ones at low frequency.

tanks you about this informatoin because i know friend from people tabou he is E-V12

drobbah
04-21-2021, 07:46 PM
this guy what his people are, he is Berber or Tabou or Arabians Libyan
Probably Arab as he claims to descend from a famous shareef scholar who happens to have a maqaam in his town of Zliten.

This is what I could find about his supposed ancestor:
مسجد ومقام سيدي مفتاح الصفراني العطوي الفيتوري الإدريسي الحسني في مدينة زليتن وهو من المقامات الشهيرة التي تقصد وتزار ويحظى باعتقاد واحترام عامة الناس له ولذريته السادة الصفران.
*نسبه الشريف:

سيدي مفتاح بن جابر بن ارخيص بن محمد الأصفر بن عطية بن محمد الكبير بن سيدي سليمان بن سالم بن خليفة بن عمران بن أحمد بن خليفة فيتور بن عبدالعزيز بن مولاي عبدالله نبيل بن مولاي عمران بن مولاي أحمد بن مولاي عبدالله بن مولاي عبدالعزيز بن مولاي عبدالقادر بن مولاي عبدالرحيم (أحمد) بن مولاي محمد بن الأمير مولاي عبدالله الناسك بن مولاي ادريس الأصغر بن مولاي ادريس الأكبر بن سيدنا عبدالله المحض بن سيدنا الحسن المثنى بن الإمام الحسن المجتبى بن أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله تعالى عنهم.

capsian
04-21-2021, 08:12 PM
Probably Arab as he claims to descend from a famous shareef scholar who happens to have a maqaam in his town of Zliten.

This is what I could find about his supposed ancestor:

thanks you

capsian
04-21-2021, 08:13 PM
Probably Arab as he claims to descend from a famous shareef scholar who happens to have a maqaam in his town of Zliten.

This is what I could find about his supposed ancestor:

El Adarissa in North Africa are E-M81 (all branches M81)

drobbah
04-21-2021, 08:17 PM
El Adarissa in North Africa are E-M81 (all branches M81)
Which means they are probably indigenous to Morocco.I've seen some Idrissids who carry y-dna G

capsian
04-21-2021, 11:49 PM
Which means they are probably indigenous to Morocco.I've seen some Idrissids who carry y-dna G

no mostly are E-M81 and some E-V65

farjanomar
04-22-2021, 11:27 AM
Our Somali big Y Dante Labs results, are finally starting to come in alxamdillaah. Last week 1 Isaaq guy got it, and this week 1 Gadubiirse guy. They are still uploading to Yfull.

drobbah
04-22-2021, 07:30 PM
Our Somali big Y Dante Labs results, are finally starting to come in alxamdillaah. Last week 1 Isaaq guy got it, and this week 1 Gadubiirse guy. They are still uploading to Yfull.
Which Isaaq subclan is he from?

farjanomar
04-23-2021, 01:17 AM
Which Isaaq subclan is he from?

I only know that he is a Hg T isaaq.

drobbah
04-23-2021, 01:37 AM
I only know that he is a Hg T isaaq.

Probably Garxajis or Habar Jeclo then.I was hoping one of the E-V32 HJs or the E-V22 Arabs would take the test.We already have enough Isaaq Ts

GabrielZelalem
04-23-2021, 03:06 AM
Which Isaaq subclan is he from?

Don’t know if that’s the same individual but I recently matched with another Isaaq on FTDNA, a HJ brother.

farjanomar
04-23-2021, 04:08 AM
A Surre sample and a Marehan sample should arrive anytime. Coz they were close last time they updated us.

Last year, when we promoted Dante sales, we got about 11 people who bought the sale. But we might only get maybe 8-9 Coz some of them had problems

Dante getting their samples.

First time, we have 1 Abgaal, 1 Marehan, and also 1 Arab Salah big Y test.

drobbah
04-25-2021, 03:10 AM
Is anyone else of the opinion that only one of the E-Y17859 branches is the proto-Somali lineage?

E-BY155996 seems to be around 2.5-3k years old but with limited distribution in Somaliland among Isaaqs,that new Musa Dhariye blacksmith (Northern artisinal castes) and possibly pockets in the south among some Dirs, the Ashraaf Merka sample would be an example of that.

The other brother branch seems limited to the Harti clan while the other E-Y18637 is probably the most widely spread lineage in Somaliweyn from both the Daroods,Hawiye and I think one raxanweyn sample.I think it's age,widespread distrubtion makes it a good candidate.I definitely want to hear from the others like NetNomad,Omar etc what their perspective or theories are concerning Somali E-V32 subclades

drobbah
04-28-2021, 12:06 PM
Palestinian from Nablus uploaded on yfull as E-Z813* (ftdna kit#IN98747) and two other Palestinians are probably also E-Z813* based on their strs.....


In other news a Saudi singer from the ancient Qahtani Bariq tribe (which existed during the Prophet's time) seems to cluster with the Habar Awal and probably belongs to E-BY75676 (tmrca 1100 ybp) lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YTApyUOERg

Megatron
04-28-2021, 06:33 PM
I plan to take the Big-Y test. Which one would you guys recommend, FtDNA or Dante Labs?

GabrielZelalem
04-28-2021, 09:57 PM
I plan to take the Big-Y test. Which one would you guys recommend, FtDNA or Dante Labs?

FTDNA's Big-Y is very expensive, but its guaranteed you'll get your results in time. There has been quite a few complaints about Dante Labs regarding the delays etc but I think the money saved is worth waiting, as the results are the same.

drobbah
04-29-2021, 01:16 AM
I plan to take the Big-Y test. Which one would you guys recommend, FtDNA or Dante Labs?
That's good news walaal, we really need a non-Habar Awal Isaaq E-V32 result.I would personally recommend the BigY from ftdna

farjanomar
04-29-2021, 11:32 AM
I plan to take the Big-Y test. Which one would you guys recommend, FtDNA or Dante Labs?


That's good bro. There is a Company called Nabula genomics offering a sale of $299, but, i don't know how good they are.

This are your prices options for now:

A-FTDNA $449.
B-Dante Labs $599.
C-Nebula Genomics Sale $299.

NetNomad
04-29-2021, 12:01 PM
Arabs really seem to have diverse Ys, especially their low frequency lineages.

I think that the Horn (even excluding Somalis) has less Y diversity than the Egypt/Levant/Arabian Peninsula zone.

drobbah
04-29-2021, 01:39 PM
Arabs really seem to have diverse Ys, especially their low frequency lineages.

I think that the Horn (even excluding Somalis) has less Y diversity than the Egypt/Levant/Arabian Peninsula zone.
What those Palestinian E-Z813* shows is that the lineage clearly originated in modern Egypt and considering that the E-Y17859 is also Egyptian seems to suggest a late introduction into the Horn from the Northern parts of the Eastern Desert around 4.5k years ago with the lineage that dominates modern Somalis being around 3k year old.

Archeologists found cattle herding site that was roughly of a similar age (4k ybp):

The faunal remains confirm the importance of fishing in Neolithic settlements close to Lake Abbé, but also the importance of bovine husbandry and, for the first time in this area, evidence for caprine herding practices. Radiocarbon dating places this occupation at the beginning of the 2nd millennium b.c., similar in range to Asa Koma. These two sites represent the oldest evidence of herding in the region, and they provide a better understanding of the development of Neolithic societies in this region.

Sada Mire:

However, there are great similarities with sites in Ethiopia, northern Kenya, Djibouti and Eritrea. The megalithic traditions of Somaliland could go back to Neolithic times. However, many seem to be from about the second millennium BCE up until recently

Asiatic (Semitic) tribes did arrive in the Eastern Desert from the Sinai and probably some of those tribes are responsible for E-Z813 in the Southern Levant.For example the E-BY8075* sample is a Sinai Bedouin who just might descend from the Medjay a Northern Eastern Desert nomadic cattle herders who lived around 2000 BCE

Deftextra
04-30-2021, 01:48 AM
Anyone know the origin/clan of the individual from banaadir on y-full (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192465/?.
I am likely E-Y18637+, but need to do BigY to confirm and I think there is a strong chance I fall under the same branch as the guy from banaadir.

drobbah
04-30-2021, 02:47 AM
Anyone know the origin/clan of the individual from banaadir on y-full (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192465/?.
I am likely E-Y18637+, but need to do BigY to confirm and I think there is a strong chance I fall under the same branch as the guy from banaadir.
Definitely Hawiye as he clusters with other Hawiye subclans based on his strs.Hawiye seem to all belong to E-Y18637 except the Somaliland Hawiye who are T-M70+.

farjanomar
04-30-2021, 05:11 AM
Anyone know the origin/clan of the individual from banaadir on y-full (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192465/?.
I am likely E-Y18637+, but need to do BigY to confirm and I think there is a strong chance I fall under the same branch as the guy from banaadir.


What test have you done so far? Ftdna Y37.

Deftextra
04-30-2021, 09:04 AM
Yeah Y37 only so far.

drobbah
04-30-2021, 12:41 PM
Yfull finally added the dates/tmrcas for the E tree..

Also the Cole's Burial I8874 sample (3k years old) that someone on this forum claimed was E-Z813+ is actually E-CTS5995*,one of the medieval Nubian E-V32 samples also belonged to this clade

drobbah
05-02-2021, 05:23 PM
Just got a new str match at Y-111 with a genetic distance of 8 from the Hussein Abokor reer Samatar clan (tribe of current SL president), Habar Awal seems to be a solid real clan with a recent forefather just like the Harti (ancient people of Maydh).Interestingly enough this means that Saudi dude is a long lost Sacad Muuse

https://i.imgur.com/djJJF05.jpg

Zack15
05-07-2021, 12:59 AM
Nah I found them by going to my subclade's country statistics. We have a total of 4 samples including myself and my fellow Habar Awal who is the only person in my BigY matches page. I guess these two other unknown origin dudes decided to not opt in to matching which sucks. Hopefully they change their mind or decide to upload on yfull

I think I'm one of them. I forgot I had it previously in private mode but now have changed it to allow matches. I'm Sacad Muse - Jibril Abokor with E-FT385910

drobbah
05-07-2021, 01:53 AM
I think I'm one of them. I forgot I had it previously in private mode but now have changed it to allow matches. I'm Sacad Muse - Jibril Abokor with E-FT385910
A fellow JB masha'allah, welcome to the forum brother.It makes me happy to see more Habar Awal taking the test.There's another HA who took the test but he's E-BY75676* which means he is probably neither Sacad Muuse or Cisse Muuse, I wonder if he belongs to those smaller lesser known HA clans.

Our tmrca is probably between 250 and 400 ybp which aligns with our abtirsi.JB has gone through a bottleneck with the vast majority of us descending from his grandson Cumar.I hope you decide to upload on yfull walaal

Zack15
05-07-2021, 02:39 PM
A fellow JB masha'allah, welcome to the forum brother.It makes me happy to see more Habar Awal taking the test.There's another HA who took the test but he's E-BY75676* which means he is probably neither Sacad Muuse or Cisse Muuse, I wonder if he belongs to those smaller lesser known HA clans.

Our tmrca is probably between 250 and 400 ybp which aligns with our abtirsi.JB has gone through a bottleneck with the vast majority of us descending from his grandson Cumar.I hope you decide to upload on yfull walaal

Thanks walaal and yes I plan on on uploading to yfull soon. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this but what you mean by the HA who's E-BY75676* is possibly not SM or CM? Is the addition of the asterisk means it's different than the E-BY75676 which I got as a subclade before E-FT385910?

drobbah
05-07-2021, 06:13 PM
Thanks walaal and yes I plan on on uploading to yfull soon. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this but what you mean by the HA who's E-BY75676* is possibly not SM or CM? Is the addition of the asterisk means it's different than the E-BY75676 which I got as a subclade before E-FT385910?
The asterik means that he is only BY75676+ without sharing a downstream subclade like me and you.If the CM & this new sample were recently related (like both belonging to CM) they would of formed a new subclade which they didn't.E-BY75676 seems to be the Habar Awal clade or at least the descendants of Muuse.Muuse the son of Subeyr probably lived around 800-900 ybp and from what we know he had a bunch sons not just the famous two (Sacad & Cisse) such as Afgaab Muse,Celi Muse,Cigalle Muse,Cabdalle Muse.I think that E-BY75676 sample belongs to one of these lesser known clans.

farjanomar
05-07-2021, 07:18 PM
@Drobbar Good to know the smaller Somali sub sub clans. We Somali always mention and know the Big Clans and Sub Clans. Its good Habar Awal

Big Y tree is growing more and more. hopefully the other guy in your match is going to join you as well.

drobbah
05-07-2021, 07:28 PM
@Drobbar Good to know the smaller Somali sub sub clans. We Somali always mention and know the Big Clans and Sub Clans. Its good Habar Awal

Big Y tree is growing more and more. hopefully the other guy in your match is going to join you as well.
If you think Habar Awal or the Sacad Muuse clan is small then you must be ignorant which is understandable since many Somalis live in their own clan bubbles.

We are a large clan that live and mainly are concentrated and dominate in Maroodi Jeex the most densely populated Somali region after Banaadir.A huge percentage of Djibouti is Habar Awal and entire Sacad Muuse subclans live in Ethiopia's farming reserve areas ( mostly Reer Yoonis Jibriil Abokor) and the nomadic Hawd area (clans like reer Samatar Hussein Abokor)

farjanomar
05-07-2021, 07:34 PM
Is anyone else of the opinion that only one of the E-Y17859 branches is the proto-Somali lineage?

E-BY155996 seems to be around 2.5-3k years old but with limited distribution in Somaliland among Isaaqs,that new Musa Dhariye blacksmith (Northern artisinal castes) and possibly pockets in the south among some Dirs, the Ashraaf Merka sample would be an example of that.

The other brother branch seems limited to the Harti clan while the other E-Y18637 is probably the most widely spread lineage in Somaliweyn from both the Daroods,Hawiye and I think one raxanweyn sample.I think it's age,widespread distrubtion makes it a good candidate.I definitely want to hear from the others like NetNomad,Omar etc what their perspective or theories are concerning Somali E-V32 subclades


For now, its E-Y18637 that is the oldest, but their is possible 4th subclade of E-Y18629. (cluster in the Ftdna Somali project cluster !.4 with 3 members)

farjanomar
05-07-2021, 08:36 PM
If you think Habar Awal or the Sacad Muuse clan is small then you must be ignorant which is understandable since many Somalis live in their own clan bubbles.

We are a large clan that live and mainly are concentrated and dominate in Maroodi Jeex the most densely populated Somali region after Banaadir.A huge percentage of Djibouti is Habar Awal and entire Sacad Muuse subclans live in Ethiopia's farming reserve areas ( mostly Reer Yoonis Jibriil Abokor) and the nomadic Hawd area (clans like reer Samatar Hussein Abokor)

NO, i mean NON Ciise Muuse NON Sacad Muuse HA sub sub clans just like you mentioned.

farjanomar
05-08-2021, 12:58 AM
I think I'm one of them. I forgot I had it previously in private mode but now have changed it to allow matches. I'm Sacad Muse - Jibril Abokor with E-FT385910

Welcome bro. How long did your big Y test take? I gather there are delays.

Zack15
05-08-2021, 01:03 AM
The asterik means that he is only BY75676+ without sharing a downstream subclade like me and you.If the CM & this new sample were recently related (like both belonging to CM) they would of formed a new subclade which they didn't.E-BY75676 seems to be the Habar Awal clade or at least the descendants of Muuse.Muuse the son of Subeyr probably lived around 800-900 ybp and from what we know he had a bunch sons not just the famous two (Sacad & Cisse) such as Afgaab Muse,Celi Muse,Cigalle Muse,Cabdalle Muse.I think that E-BY75676 sample belongs to one of these lesser known clans.

Got it. Appreciate the explanation and yeah hopefully we get more clarity as more tests come in.

Zack15
05-08-2021, 01:05 AM
Welcome bro. How long did your big Y test take? I gather there are delays.


Yeah , it took about three months. I even forgot about it completly until I decided to check back in the other day to find it was finished a few weeks back.

drobbah
05-08-2021, 09:19 AM
For now, its E-Y18637 that is the oldest, but their is possible 4th subclade of E-Y18629. (cluster in the Ftdna Somali project cluster !.4 with 3 members)
E-FT18121 only has three branches.My current theory is that E-Y18637 is associated with the mythical Samaale Somali speaking camel herders and their expansion all over Somaliweyn.

E-BY155996 represents the urbanized non-Somali population of Western Somaliland.I think the Isaaq clan was an assimilation process between the dominant Somali nomads (Mostly T carrying Dir from Sanaag) with the farming and merchant locals after the collapse of the medieval state of Adal.While the artisinal castes were subjugated under a caste system.Sada Miire has interesting theory that Yibir for example is actually an Ethio-Semitic word for tax collecting.

E-Y163928 would represent the urban population possibly non-Somali population of Sanaag who were Somalianized.The fact that Daarood always had the tradition they weren't Samaale and the story of marrying a wife of Dir imo seems to suggest they were Somalianized by E-BY8081 and local T lineages.I think someone here posted about a village of Ogaden men in Ethiopia who were majority T-M70+

Some Somali clans by the time of the Futuh were living within the Sultanate of Adal but the vast majority didn't.Some of the clans that lived there are Gerri Koombe (Daarood),Yabarre (Daarood),Habar Maqdi (possibly Samarone),Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Arab & Ayuub).Mareexaan lived on the periphery and so did the Harti (people of Maydh).When the Marexaan killed the Adalite messenger he fled to what the chronicler called the land of the Somalis where the Hawiye lived.The incursions of these clans into the territory of the Sultanate Western & Central Somaliland & Hawd was probably when the nomads ultimately became Muslims imo (13th century)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig4_HTML.gif?as=webp
Some sources about medieval Somaliland from StateHorn


44590
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44592

Megatron
05-08-2021, 11:15 AM
I’ve looked at the available options and I think I’ll go with FtDNA Big-Y. Can’t wait for the next Dante Labs sales.

lavrok
05-08-2021, 08:29 PM
I’m HJ.

Good to see another HJ E-V32 on here. Are you Muuse Abokor or Maxamed Abokor?

Megatron
05-08-2021, 10:49 PM
Good to see another HJ E-V32 on here. Are you Muuse Abokor or Maxamed Abokor?

I’m Mahamed Abokor walaal.

NetNomad
05-09-2021, 02:49 AM
Megatron lavrok drobbah

Do you guys think it is possible that some Eastern Isaaqs with E-V32 (HYs/HJs?) will end up under E-Y163928* instead of E-BY155996? For example, from the E-Y163928* Dhulbahante person's (YF66563) STRs nobody was able to tell in advance he was related to the E-Y163949 group (didn't have DYS388=13).

Just throwing out some ideas.

drobbah
05-09-2021, 06:23 AM
Megatron lavrok drobbah

Do you guys think it is possible that some Eastern Isaaqs with E-V32 (HYs/HJs?) will end up under E-Y163928* instead of E-BY155996? For example, from the E-Y163928* Dhulbahante person's (YF66563) STRs nobody was able to tell in advance he was related to the E-Y163949 group (didn't have DYS388=13).

Just throwing out some ideas.
The only HJ sample I seen on ftdna looks to be E-BY155996 based on his strs alongside a Kuwaiti sample and so does that Tumaal (blacksmith) individual.The situation your proposing is definitely possible but right now we need the E-V32 HJ samples to take the bigY or at minimum take a str test.

From what I was told was that the E-V32 Garxajis are Ciidigale (1 sample) and Western HY.So it's highly unlikely they don't fall under E-BY155996

We also need those Southern E-V32 Dir to take the BigY.If they end up E-Y18637+ then my theory of E-Y18637/T-BY181210 being the original Somali lineages will be highly likely.

lavrok
05-09-2021, 10:12 AM
I’m Mahamed Abokor walaal.

Thats interesting, I am Muse Abokor btw, it would be great to get more HJ tested as there is hardly any information on distribution of E/T within Samane, Maxamed and Muse Abokor.

Megatron
05-09-2021, 10:19 AM
I matched with E-V32 HJ both Muse and Mahamed Abokor on 23andme and other E-V32 Isaaq. Also I matched with T-L208 Isaaq and E-V22 Isaaq.

I know one Samane Abokor but I’m not sure if he wants to take a test. Personally I think they will turn out to be E-V32.

T-L208 seem to be the main lineage in Mahamed Abokor from what I have seen this far but anything is possible. Most E-V32 Mahamed Abokor are Ahmed Farah, the largest sub clan within Mahamed Abokor.

drobbah
05-09-2021, 11:10 AM
I matched with E-V32 HJ both Muse and Mahamed Abokor on 23andme and other E-V32 Isaaq. Also I matched with T-L208 Isaaq and E-V22 Isaaq.

I know one Samane Abokor but I’m not sure if he wants to take a test. Personally I think they will turn out to be E-V32.

T-L208 seem to be the main lineage in Mahamed Abokor from what I have seen this far but anything is possible. Most E-V32 Mahamed Abokor are Ahmed Farah, the largest sub clan within Mahamed Abokor.
Based on what you seen so far, is E-V32 the dominant lineage of HJ?

Megatron
05-09-2021, 11:47 AM
Based on what you seen so far, is E-V32 the dominant lineage of HJ?

It could be the dominant lineage now that plenty of Ahmed Farah have also tested positive for E-V32. Ahmed Farah is without a doubt the largest sub clan among the Mahamed Abokor HJ and a powerhouse in the city of Burao.

drobbah
05-09-2021, 06:05 PM
Has anyone seen results from the following clans: Geri,Bartire,Abaskuul & Yabarre?

farjanomar
05-09-2021, 11:18 PM
E-FT18121 only has three branches.My current theory is that E-Y18637 is associated with the mythical Samaale Somali speaking camel herders and their expansion all over Somaliweyn.

E-BY155996 represents the urbanized non-Somali population of Western Somaliland.I think the Isaaq clan was an assimilation process between the dominant Somali nomads (Mostly T carrying Dir from Sanaag) with the farming and merchant locals after the collapse of the medieval state of Adal.While the artisinal castes were subjugated under a caste system.Sada Miire has interesting theory that Yibir for example is actually an Ethio-Semitic word for tax collecting.

E-Y163928 would represent the urban population possibly non-Somali population of Sanaag who were Somalianized.The fact that Daarood always had the tradition they weren't Samaale and the story of marrying a wife of Dir imo seems to suggest they were Somalianized by E-BY8081 and local T lineages.I think someone here posted about a village of Ogaden men in Ethiopia who were majority T-M70+

Some Somali clans by the time of the Futuh were living within the Sultanate of Adal but the vast majority didn't.Some of the clans that lived there are Gerri Koombe (Daarood),Yabarre (Daarood),Habar Maqdi (possibly Samarone),Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Arab & Ayuub).Mareexaan lived on the periphery and so did the Harti (people of Maydh).When the Marexaan killed the Adalite messenger he fled to what the chronicler called the land of the Somalis where the Hawiye lived.The incursions of these clans into the territory of the Sultanate Western & Central Somaliland & Hawd was probably when the nomads ultimately became Muslims imo (13th century)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig4_HTML.gif?as=webp
Some sources about medieval Somaliland from StateHorn


44590
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44592



Has anyone seen results from the following clans: Geri,Bartire,Abaskuul & Yabarre?


No. I have not seen them. Thousands of Somalis have taken basic 23andme tests, especially the Somali Diaspora. The problem is they don't make it Public.

Now, i almost have 600 relatives 90% of them Somalis, but they rarely put up their Clan information.

farjanomar
05-09-2021, 11:27 PM
I hope someone makes FB group that promotes Somali DNA testing especially big Y, now that prices are way down, from where they were years ago.

A lot communities have it. I am a member of North African group page that i lurk sometimes, and there are so many results all the time.

Megatron
05-10-2021, 06:33 PM
Has anyone seen results from the following clans: Geri,Bartire,Abaskuul & Yabarre?

Don’t really know the clan breakdown but most of my Ethio-Somali relatives on 23andme are E-V32, two of them are E-M183 and one is J-CTS5368.

farjanomar
05-11-2021, 12:42 AM
It looks like, we finally have Downstream SNP (E-FT77328) for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192465/ Congrats to sample # 137691 on E-M35 project.

Omaar
05-11-2021, 06:11 AM
It looks like, we finally have Downstream SNP (E-FT77328) for https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY192465/ Congrats to sample # 137691 on E-M35 project.

E-FT77328 has 29 equivalent SNPs and i share with someone who wants to stay anonymous.
Yet I have 9 private variants. The "Bay guy" is still in paragroup E-BY192465*.


Is anyone else of the opinion that only one of the E-Y17859 branches is the proto-Somali lineage?

E-BY155996 seems to be around 2.5-3k years old but with limited distribution in Somaliland among Isaaqs,that new Musa Dhariye blacksmith (Northern artisinal castes) and possibly pockets in the south among some Dirs, the Ashraaf Merka sample would be an example of that.

The other brother branch seems limited to the Harti clan while the other E-Y18637 is probably the most widely spread lineage in Somaliweyn from both the Daroods,Hawiye and I think one raxanweyn sample.I think it's age,widespread distrubtion makes it a good candidate.I definitely want to hear from the others like NetNomad,Omar etc what their perspective or theories are concerning Somali E-V32 subclades
The somali guy who is in the paragroup E-Y18637* is from Sanaag region. He says that he belongs to Ugaaslabe/Ogeyslabe clan.

drobbah
05-11-2021, 07:01 AM
E-FT77328 has 29 equivalent SNPs and i share with someone who wants to stay anonymous.
Yet I have 9 private variants. The "Bay guy" is still in paragroup E-BY192465*.


The somali guy who is in the paragroup E-Y18637* is from Sanaag region. He says that he belongs to Ugaaslabe/Ogeyslabe clan.
Ugaaslabe from what I could find online are not Darood.E-Y18637 is probably the E-V32 equivalent of Samaale which expanded from their urheimat of Sanaag imo.Hopefully Garre,Gaaljecel,Xawaadle,Ajuuraan and other notorious Samaale clans take the BigY

drobbah
05-11-2021, 07:05 AM
Don’t really know the clan breakdown but most of my Ethio-Somali relatives on 23andme are E-V32, two of them are E-M183 and one is J-CTS5368.
E-M183 is a Berber lineage that dominates the Sheikhaal clan.I think the J-P58 Arabian lineage is found in the Ogaden clan as you can see in the Somali ftdna project.

I still haven't come across any Jidwaaq or Bartire results, I wonder if they will fall under the Western Somaliland E-V32 clade or the clade that currently dominates the Harti.

farjanomar
05-11-2021, 07:29 PM
Congrats to Beesha T. Now Yfull has just updated in the live section. Extra branches. Give us some insight into the new branches.

Megatron
05-13-2021, 01:21 PM
E-M183 is a Berber lineage that dominates the Sheikhaal clan.I think the J-P58 Arabian lineage is found in the Ogaden clan as you can see in the Somali ftdna project.

I still haven't come across any Jidwaaq or Bartire results, I wonder if they will fall under the Western Somaliland E-V32 clade or the clade that currently dominates the Harti.

That would be interesting to know.

I forgot to add one Ethio-Somali relative with A1b1-M118 before he hid his results unfortunately. The other one on my relatives list with similar haplogroup is from Somalia proper.

drobbah
05-13-2021, 01:44 PM
I seen one dude with that haplogroup but his direct paternal ancestor was from Yemen and he had significant Arab & South Asian ancestry but was autosomally predominantly Somali.

diini95
05-13-2021, 05:50 PM
That would be interesting to know.

I forgot to add one Ethio-Somali relative with A1b1-M118 before he hid his results unfortunately. The other one on my relatives list with similar haplogroup is from Somalia proper.

My third closest relative has the same haplogroup he is either my second or third cousin.

drobbah
05-13-2021, 06:04 PM
Which clan does kit N102099 belong too?

Omaar
05-16-2021, 10:05 AM
Very interesting, there is new Ajuuraan sample on ftdna, but, they have not placed him on the list yet. He is still in the SNPs page. He will be the first.
If ever, the so called Pre-Samaale hypothesis is to hold water. The Ajuuran should be the epitome Pre-Samaale, because during their Kingdom, the Somali People,
were called Aji and Ajuuran. There was always a debate about where in the Somali Clan Tree the aJuuraan fall.

Some clan names are derived from occupations that were common to many groups, such as:
Shiikhaal -> theologians
Ajuuraan-> إيجار/renter?
Tumaal-> blacksmith

What is that Ajuuraan's haplogroup?

drobbah
05-16-2021, 11:58 AM
Does the South have Madhibaan,Tumaal and Yibir? I always wondered who were the blacksmiths of the south

farjanomar
05-16-2021, 09:45 PM
Some clan names are derived from occupations that were common to many groups, such as:
Shiikhaal -> theologians
Ajuuraan-> إيجار/renter?
Tumaal-> blacksmith

What is that Ajuuraan's haplogroup?


It looks like the guy, removed his Clan Name, and, maybe even left the Somali Project, once i made my statement kkkk. He might have read my statement (Allaah Aclam).

I don't understand why some People are so private about the their result, after spending so much money on Dna testing.


He did not have any Haplogroup. He was on the SNP page where, People get placed before, they get their first Ftdna result.

Almagest
05-18-2021, 09:18 AM
It looks like the guy, removed his Clan Name, and, maybe even left the Somali Project, once i made my statement kkkk. He might have read my statement (Allaah Aclam).

I don't understand why some People are so private about the their result, after spending so much money on Dna testing.


He did not have any Haplogroup. He was on the SNP page where, People get placed before, they get their first Ftdna result.

It’s understandable. I don’t think we will see many E Hy or Ciidagale or Dir because of the people that gatekeep these clan haplogroups on certain sites LOL if you try to say you are E in a T-dominated clan they will not accept you, call you sheegato etc.

NetNomad
05-18-2021, 12:23 PM
It’s understandable. I don’t think we will see many E Hy or Ciidagale or Dir because of the people that gatekeep these clan haplogroups on certain sites LOL if you try to say you are E in a T-dominated clan they will not accept you, call you sheegato etc.

Almost all old clans got different lineages or sub-lineages. I don't see why people make a fuss about it. Already seen a handful of E-V32 HYs and Dirs on 23andMe. Hiding makes no sense as you can find matches quicker via the Somali project or it might spark a Somali from your sub-clan with that lineage to join FT.

Megatron
05-18-2021, 12:31 PM
It’s understandable. I don’t think we will see many E Hy or Ciidagale or Dir because of the people that gatekeep these clan haplogroups on certain sites LOL if you try to say you are E in a T-dominated clan they will not accept you, call you sheegato etc.

I think you’re right because I came into contact with two E-V32 individuals from the same sub clan (Ali Said) which is a very influential clan in Somaliland and influential among the hy clan. Both have now hid their results. Most likely because of the scenario you shared. So far I know of 3 E-V32 results from this particular sub clan so there’s an obvious trend but now we can only speculate. It’s unfortunate that people are afraid to share their results because it may upset the “social order”.

NetNomad
05-18-2021, 12:53 PM
The somali guy who is in the paragroup E-Y18637* is from Sanaag region. He says that he belongs to Ugaaslabe/Ogeyslabe clan.

I hear he is from Jubbaland, which may increase the chances of it possibly being a Jubbaland origin lineage.

drobbah
05-18-2021, 02:18 PM
I think you’re right because I came into contact with two E-V32 individuals from the same sub clan (Ali Said) which is a very influential clan in Somaliland and influential among the hy clan. Both have now hid their results. Most likely because of the scenario you shared. So far I know of 3 E-V32 results from this particular sub clan so there’s an obvious trend but now we can only speculate. It’s unfortunate that people are afraid to share their results because it may upset the “social order”.
Is Cali Siciiid a Musa Cabdale subclan? Perhaps they are assimilated Nuux Ismaciil the original merchant clan of Berbera or Ciise Muuse.

Just like I think the Sacad Muuse T-M70+ could be assimilated Tol Jeclo,Garxajis or Samarone.I even heard two Makahiil (SM subclan) individuals from the same jilib had two different haplogroups.Northern Somalis (SL,DJB,Ethiopia & PL) despite what many modern Somalis think practiced assimilation.

Megatron
05-18-2021, 02:51 PM
Is Cali Siciiid a Musa Cabdale subclan? Perhaps they are assimilated Nuux Ismaciil the original merchant clan of Berbera or Ciise Muuse.

Just like I think the Sacad Muuse T-M70+ could be assimilated Tol Jeclo,Garxajis or Samarone.I even heard two Makahiil (SM subclan) individuals from the same jilib had two different haplogroups.Northern Somalis (SL,DJB,Ethiopia & PL) despite what many modern Somalis think practiced assimilation.

No, Ali Said is the son of Said Garhajis. All the other HY descend from his brother Arreh Said (Ishaq Arreh, Musa Arreh, Ismail Arreh). They’re not a coastal clan and they live among their fellow HY, in a territory stretching from the Hargeisa-Oodweyne corridor to Burao. You’ll find them in these cities.

I think their results (so far) is ancient and not recent assimilation from a neighboring sub clan. The fact that they are the uncles of all HY sub clans (genealogically) indicate an ancient alliance.

I agree when you find two individuals of the same sub clan with two different haplogroups then it’s usually assimilation somewhere down the line. The Makahiil T-M70 could be from Mahamed Abokor (HJ) since we used to be neighbors in eastern Sahil. The Makahil used to inhabit the ancient town of Siyara as recent as 150 years ago. One of my great great grandfathers is buried in an area between Siyara and El-Darad.

drobbah
05-18-2021, 03:57 PM
They are definitely a lot more E-V32 and other E-M78 lineages among us Isaaq.We just need more people from various subclans especially the smaller ones to take the test.I think the vast majority of Isaaqs will be E-BY155996+,T-FGC92488,E-V22,E-M78*,E-V16 and probably some J1-P58 as well.Tbh I think Isaaqs will end up being the most diverse "Somali" clan in Somaliweyn when it comes to indigenous pre-medieval lineages.

eli
05-18-2021, 09:13 PM
I matched with E-V32 HJ both Muse and Mahamed Abokor on 23andme and other E-V32 Isaaq. Also I matched with T-L208 Isaaq and E-V22 Isaaq.

I know one Samane Abokor but I’m not sure if he wants to take a test. Personally I think they will turn out to be E-V32.

T-L208 seem to be the main lineage in Mahamed Abokor from what I have seen this far but anything is possible. Most E-V32 Mahamed Abokor are Ahmed Farah, the largest sub clan within Mahamed Abokor.

Saw a Samane Abokor test result on Reddit months ago but did not think to share it as we Somalis have not created a central database of clans and their test results. He is haplogroup T.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/jxfprl/my_somali_dna_looks_right/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

There is a new Muuse Abokor T individual in our Facebook group, I will try to get his subclan details and see whether he belongs to the same subclan as other Muuse Abokor test results on 23andme.

eli
05-18-2021, 09:27 PM
It’s understandable. I don’t think we will see many E Hy or Ciidagale or Dir because of the people that gatekeep these clan haplogroups on certain sites LOL if you try to say you are E in a T-dominated clan they will not accept you, call you sheegato etc.

The same is also true of Habar Awals who are not E-V32 as there are individuals from both Sacad and Ciise Muuse who have tested T but may not be loud about it because of genetic stereotypes being promoted on forums.

It is not a group thing but certain individuals have been very active in pushing that Clan X = Haplogroup X. This is evident even in this thread when there is a scarcity of Somali YFull results and people are indirectly labelling others Sheegaad. I am of the opinion that old clan identities which predate Islam such as Dir, Hawiye, Daarood etc. are confederacies. Nonetheless, clans which into existence after the adoption of Islam within the past 500 to 700 years or so are not necessarily confederacies. Larger subclans will most likely have adoptees but this will be better observed when the Somali YFull trees have more results.

eli
05-18-2021, 09:36 PM
I hear he is from Jubbaland, which may increase the chances of it possibly being a Jubbaland origin lineage.

Not necessarily. The concept that certain E-V32 lineages are restricted to certain macro-clans is premature as demonstrated by the fact that Maxamud Saleebaan do not cluster with Northerner Hartis on YFull. Furthermore, the presence of a supposed 'non-Somali' E-V32 lineage among the Harti also highlights how divisions are not as clear-cut as one would think.

The ironic thing is that Ogeyslabe are rumoured to be of South Asian origin but this test result throws a spanner in that clan myth.

eli
05-18-2021, 09:52 PM
There's a new kit (MK70064) that is probably E-BY155996+ and seems similar to the Habar Jeclo Isaaq individual and a Kuwaiti.I think DYS393=12 might be a unique E-BY155996+ str for Z813+ individuals.

Edit: The kit is Tumaal/Gaaboye who claim to be Dir (Muse dhariyo)

Muuse Dhariye are known to be of Dir origin.

The Madhiban are a not a monolithic group and have diverse clan identities Abtirsi wise. Some are Gorgarte Hawiye whilst the Muuse Dhariye are said to be of Dir origin. Others are also of Daarood origin.

It is an ignorant assumption on the part of some Somalis to assume that these clans have a different origin just because our Jahiliya outcast culture led to them being marginalised from wider society.

Megatron
05-18-2021, 10:19 PM
@eli

Interesting. The Samane Abokor from Togdeer cohabit with Mahamed Abokor (HJ).
The individual I know is a coastal Samane from Hagal in eastern Sahil. I hope to convince him and a Magaadle relative from Dayaha village in Sanaag. I think Magaadle may turn out to be E-V32.

I have only seen one T-L208 Muse Abokor (Reer Yonis).
Bi’iide, Uduruhmiin etc that I’ve come into contact with on 23andme are E-V32.

Clans that formed post Islam seem to be confederacies as well to some degree. There’s already some evidence in regard to this matter.

eli
05-18-2021, 11:19 PM
@eli

Interesting. The Samane Abokor from Togdeer cohabit with Mahamed Abokor (HJ).
The individual I know is a coastal Samane from Hagal in eastern Sahil. I hope to convince him and a Magaadle relative from Dayaha village in Sanaag. I think Magaadle may turn out to be E-V32.

I have only seen one T-L208 Muse Abokor (Reer Yonis).
Bi’iide, Uduruhmiin etc that I’ve come into contact with on 23andme are E-V32.

Clans that formed post Islam seem to be confederacies as well to some degree. There’s already some evidence in regard to this matter.

That individual stated he is from Burco but we are non the wiser as to where his subclan's traditional territory is. Do all Samane subclans hail from one continuous clan territory?

I forgot to mention earlier, do not expect some clans to be less prone to adopting others. Dhulbahante and Ogaden are not coastal clans yet they both possess individuals with haplogroup J. Even the Garre in NFD/K5 possess haplogroup J. This could be an ancient J lineage found in the Horn but it demonstrates how Somali genetic genealogy is not cut and dry. There has been a lot of internal migration among Somalis. For instance, the Cali Sicid you referenced are claimed by Gaaljecel Samaales whilst the Cali Sicid counterclaim that the Xaji Saalax section of Gaaljecel are from them, Allah Yaclam.

Historically speaking, some clan members leave after falling out with other fellow clan members and assimilate into another clan. As centuries have gone by, it would not be unusual for the descendants of that disgruntled Shisheeye clan member to have become fully assimilated into the Abtirsi of the host clan. This would have been a common practice among Somalis as DNA is demonstrating, but some clans have been better at maintaining a distinction between those who are assimilated and those who are the core of the clan. The Ciise would be a good example of a clan that mainatains such a distinction. Moreover, the assimilated subclan lineage can even become numerically larger than other individual core subclan lineages. Hence, it is not also not wise to look at numerical dominance of one sub sub subclan etc. when investigating a subclan's genetic identity.

Do not also look at an individual's haplogroup as it is not helpful when trying to figure out how real a clan identity is. For instance, in contrast to the hypothesised Middle Eastern young Somali T lineage, Somali E-V32's are not all closely related so you could find individuals within the same subclan group who are both E-V32 but do not share a common ancestor for thousands of years. Hence, E-V32's Isaaqs will not be necessarily closely related. What you should be aiming for is to get as much individuals from your subclan who are E-V32 to do Big Y/Dante tests to get an idea how you are related to each, and what other Somalis/Horners you are closely related to.

When I say 'Post-Islam', I am referring to the centuries after we adopted Islam. IMO, these clans will not necessarily be confederacies but will have Sheegaads. For example, if a Muslim clan founder lived in the late 16th/early 17th century, long after we adopted Islam, the names in his descendants Abtirsi will have more Muslim names and it would not be illogical to assume that there is some truth to such an ancestor. I would therefore expect the DNA of a clan founded by such an ancestor to display a pattern whereby most of his descendant subclans will genetically cluster together.

drobbah
05-19-2021, 12:03 AM
The same is also true of Habar Awals who are not E-V32 as there are individuals from both Sacad and Ciise Muuse who have tested T but may not be loud about it because of genetic stereotypes being promoted on forums.

It is not a group thing but certain individuals have been very active in pushing that Clan X = Haplogroup X. This is evident even in this thread when there is a scarcity of Somali YFull results and people are indirectly labelling others Sheegaad. I am of the opinion that old clan identities which predate Islam such as Dir, Hawiye, Daarood etc. are confederacies. Nonetheless, clans which into existence after the adoption of Islam within the past 500 to 700 years or so are not necessarily confederacies. Larger subclans will most likely have adoptees but this will be better observed when the Somali YFull trees have more results.
Either way both clans are dominated by recent founder effects only difference is that the E-V32 Habar Awals seems to be a more solid clan with a recent medieval forefather unlike the Garxajis.The HY T on yfull from what I seen doesn't even share a subclade with the Ciidigale T lol

eli
05-19-2021, 12:34 AM
Either way both clans are dominated by recent founder effects only difference is that the E-V32 Habar Awals seems to be a more solid clan with a recent medieval forefather unlike the Garxajis.The HY T on yfull from what I seen doesn't even share a subclade with the Ciidigale T lol

You are jumping the gun. There are two Habar Awal E-V32 samples. When you have obtained samples from all the subclans beneath each ancestor you can be firm in your stance.

The T HY has only an SNP difference with the Cidagalle and the tree has not yet been updated for TMRCA. The age of the lineage could decrease for all we know. Anyway, I am not Garxajis, so your 'lol' at their apparent distance from each other is misdirected.

The point I was making is that individuals push their theories as facts despite not having sufficient evidence. You can argue that there is a trend of results etc. but it is wiser to refrain from reaching overtly biased conclusions that are statistically unsound.

Megatron
05-19-2021, 01:08 AM
@eli

Samane Abokor is a coastal clan from the Guban. A small section of that clan live in Togdeer and they were historically under Mahamed Abokor protection just like the Imran clan.

I’ve heard that Gaalje’el claim from Ali Said relatives but it sounds far fetched. It’s more likely that a sub clan within Gaalje’el is of Ali Said origin. Similar to the ties between the Ma’alinweyne sub clan of Rahanwayn and Arap & Sa’ad Muse.

Im going to order my kit this month so hopefully we’ll be able to solve some of the mystery. Personally I believe E-V32 Isaaq will belong to the same subclade.

drobbah
05-19-2021, 01:19 AM
You are jumping the gun. There are two Habar Awal E-V32 samples.
It's clear you are jumping the gun as you have no clue how many Habar Awals have taken the BigY or str tests.There are four HA that have taken the BigY and multiple others that have taken the str tests from SM subclans like Reer Samatar,Nuux Ismaciil etc.



When you have obtained samples from all the subclans beneath each ancestor you can be firm in your stance.
When a SM from Ethiopia/Gabiley shares a medieval recent ancestor with his CM clansmen from Toghdheer...that's not a coincidence bruv.When all the HA's from various subclans cluster tightly with each other it clearly proves that this clan has a shared medieval ancestor that lines up with our history.


The T HY has only an SNP difference with the Cidagalle and the tree has not yet been updated for TMRCA. The age of the lineage could decrease for all we know. Anyway, I am not Garxajis, so your 'lol' at their apparent distance from each other is misdirected.

The point I was making is that individuals push their theories as facts despite not having sufficient evidence. You can argue that there is a trend of results etc. but it is wiser to refrain from reaching overtly biased conclusions that are statistically unsound.
My point is that the Garxajis clan doesn't descend from a recent medieval ancestor to the exclusion of the Samarone or the Bah Gob sample unlike the Habar Awal which is dominated by a single medieval lineage E-BY75676 (8-900 ybp) while both me and my fellow Jibriil Abokor fall under E-FT385910 that has a tmrca roughly around 300 ybp.I agree with your point you made earlier about clans that were formed during the medieval era being more likely to have arabic names in their abtirsi.I would say 90% of the names in my abtirsi is of Arabic origin.

eli
05-19-2021, 02:06 AM
It's clear you are jumping the gun as you have no clue how many Habar Awals have taken the BigY or str tests.There are four HA that have taken the BigY and multiple others that have taken the str tests from SM subclans like Reer Samatar,Nuux Ismaciil etc.


When a SM from Ethiopia/Gabiley shares a medieval recent ancestor with his CM clansmen from Toghdheer...that's not a coincidence bruv.When all the HA's from various subclans cluster tightly with each other it clearly proves that this clan has a shared medieval ancestor that lines up with our history.


My point is that the Garxajis clan doesn't descend from a recent medieval ancestor to the exclusion of the Samarone or the Bah Gob sample unlike the Habar Awal which is dominated by a single medieval lineage E-BY75676 (8-900 ybp) while both me and my fellow Jibriil Abokor fall under E-FT385910 that has a tmrca roughly around 300 ybp.I agree with your point you made earlier about clans that were formed during the medieval era being more likely to have arabic names in their abtirsi.I would say 90% of the names in my abtirsi is of Arabic origin.

Allow me to elaborate on my statement.

Are the Habar Awal Big Y samples and FTDNA samples all from the Abokor sub subclan lineage apart from the Ciise Muuse? Reer Samatar, Nux....etc. are sub sub subs. You all come together at Abokor.

If so, then how is it representative of all the Sacad and Ciise Muuse immediate subclans?

How many numerically smaller but genealogically old Habar Awal samples have been tested on Ftdna?

If non apart from the Abokor lineage of yours and the sole Ciise Muuse then it is still not representative of the clan statistically speaking.

Furthermore, 900 years is a long time ago. What if there are other Eastern Horner samples etc. who are closer to the Abokors than the Ciise Muuse thus affecting your YFull tree? A lot of things could have happened in the 600 years between Abokor's lineage and the supposed Habar Awal ancestor.

As for this corroborating your clan's History, we were not a written society that can point to particular historical records such as birth registers etc. as proof of ancestry, all we possess is oral History. Do you have textual evidence pointing to an ancestor who lived in the Middle Ages and had the name 'Sacad Muuse'? See my point.

Regarding the Muslim names, I did not mean every name has to be Muslim etc. You got the gist anyway.

drobbah
05-19-2021, 02:14 AM
Whether his name was Muuse or John Smith is besides the point.There is proof that the majority of Habar Awal descend from a single man who lived during the 12th or 13th century unlike Garxajis.

Megatron
05-19-2021, 11:21 AM
@eli

If we’re going to question the existence of a Sa’ad Muse or HA ancestor because of the absence of recorded history then we should also question the existence of mythical ancestors such as Dir. You claim that Dir is a pre Islam clan but there is no recorded history proving this to be the case.

Megatron
05-19-2021, 11:33 AM
Hopefully other HJ E-V32 will take the Big-Y. I believe we will form our own subclade maybe under E-BY155996.

Sakhar
05-19-2021, 03:41 PM
I believe it is highly unwise to speculate and go into absolutes without the full picture about clans and subclans in relation to their shared ancestor. As more individual samples of DNA from clan members come in a picture will emerge and prognosis can be made but no absolutes until there is a big enough sample of clans and subclans but we are not there yet and those who did DNA testing are of a few clans and subclans and on top others have hidden certain criteria or are not disclosing their clans/subclans which makes it harder to define these clans to their shared ancestor or validity of their subclan. This is a process and will take some time because of the affordability and accessibility of these DNA tests!

eli
05-19-2021, 07:28 PM
@eli

If we’re going to question the existence of a Sa’ad Muse or HA ancestor because of the absence of recorded history then we should also question the existence of mythical ancestors such as Dir. You claim that Dir is a pre Islam clan but there is no recorded history proving this to be the case.

I have never once claimed that a mythical Dir clan ancestor was alive at a particular period if History. In this thread, and elsewhere, I have already asserted that I think old clan identities are confederacies.

Macro Somali clan identities such as Dir, Hawiye, Daarood, Samaale are embedded in the clan myths of Somalis. The oral History of diverse clans testify towards the existence of such clan identities. For instance, both Hawiye and Daarood associate with Dir ancestrally speaking, and vice versa. Moreover, the names of the these macro-clan ancestors are clearly not Islamic nor are most of the immediate subclans associated with these clan identities. It can therefore be logically assumed that these macro clan identities were probably in existence during pre-Islamic times. For instance, if subclans such as Gugura, Geri, Marehan, Harti, Barsug/Barsub, Karanle were fielding armies in the 15th century, any marco clan identity they belonged to must be older than the purported date Islam reached Somalis around the 12th century when missionaries such as AwBarkhadle started propagating Islam to us.

I did not argue with Drobbah that no ancestor named Sacad Muuse etc. existed, I just pointed out to him the stupidity of his claim that an ancestor lived in the century that he claimed when there is no solid historical evidence whatsoever allowing him claim such an ancestor existed in that particular time period. Read my post carefully before making assumptions. Moreover, he tried to pass off the test results of his Abokor lineage as being representative of all Habar Awals, which again is a statistically folly stance.


Sorry I did not address your previous reply.

Congrats on taking the Big Y.

You have often made statements saying you 'personally' believe results will go the way you want as in the Samane Abokor etc. without explaining the scientific reasoning behind such a stance. What makes you think you will be closely related to the Isaaq E-V32's? Have you done an STR test yet? Compared STR's? Check with Drobbah and Lank as to how close they are to each other. If I am not mistaken, the Muuse Dhariye sample and Lank are closer to each than they are to Drobbah. If you belong to the same lineage group as Lank, then I am not sure if you will be related to Drobbah within the past 900 years etc. but check with him and Lank for confirmation.

drobbah
05-19-2021, 07:51 PM
I did not argue with Drobbah that no ancestor named Sacad Muuse etc. existed, I just pointed out to him the stupidity of his claim that an ancestor lived in the century that he claimed when there is no solid historical evidence whatsoever allowing him claim such an ancestor existed in that particular time period. Read my post carefully before making assumptions. Moreover, he tried to pass off the test results of his Abokor lineage as being representative of all Habar Awals, which again is a statistically folly stance.

The tmrca I mentioned is based on a SM & a CM (subclade E-BY75676) not two Abokors smh.My fellow Jibriil Abokor and I belong to a downstream subclade exclusive to us.There's also another E-BY75676*, you're not making any sense here bud.I never claimed that we found scientific Subeyr (progenitor of the clan) but rather Muuse which is the ancestor of the vast majority of the Habar Awal today.Muuse (E-By75676) whether you want to admit is the clan progenitor of the Sacad Muuse & Cisse Muuse clan rendering the minor T as assimilated sheegatos.



You have often made statements saying you 'personally' believe results will go the way you want as in the Samane Abokor etc. without explaining the scientific reasoning behind such a stance. What makes you think you will be closely related to the Isaaq E-V32's? Have you done an STR test yet? Compared STR's? Check with Drobbah and Lank as to how close they are to each other. If I am not mistaken, the Muuse Dhariye sample and Lank are closer to each than they are to Drobbah. If you belong to the same lineage group as Lank, then I am not sure if you will be related to Drobbah within the past 900 years etc. but check with him and Lank for confirmation.
I highly doubt that, I think the non-HA Isaaq samples will fall under E-BY155996 but not the downstream Habar Awal E-BY75676.Strs can sometimes be misleading as an Iraqi sample is very similar to us HA but belonged to E-Y17749 (which is a Sudanese/Northern Horn branch).I think the Musa Dhariyo and that HJ sample sample will be E-BY155996+ which is an old lineage around 2.7k old.We already have an Ashraaf sample from Merka who's E-BY155996*

Megatron
05-19-2021, 08:52 PM
@eli

You’re still assuming that these clan identities existed in pre-Islamic times based on oral history but you’re asking for textual evidence in regard to Drobbah’s claim which is disingenuous.

I believe we should use oral history as a metric despite the inaccuracies associated with this method of preserving history.

All the results I have seen on 23andme from the Guban and broader Sahil region have been E-V32. Based on that trend, Samane Abokor should turn out to be E-V32. It’s not about what I want or do not want..

eli
05-19-2021, 10:42 PM
Drobbah

Look at my previous posts. I took the Ciise Muuse into consideration when I made my statement. My rebuttal to you was in a series of questions which highlighted how you based your assertion that the Habar Awal lineage will be 'X' because Abokor subclans and the single Ciise Muuse sample match. I do not dispute that these results are a positive indicator that a Habar Awal lineage could be identified with these results, however, it would be haste to do so firmly without genealogically older and more representative samples from the wider Habar Awal clan. All the subclans you listed previously are, with the exception of 1 Ciise Muuse, from a sub sub sub subclan which is only a couple hundreds of years old. Like I have said more than once, that is statistically unsound when one considers how the Harti Daarood YFull tree etc. has demonstrated Somali genetic genealogy is not clear cut.

eli
05-19-2021, 11:41 PM
@Megatron

I asked a rhetorical question to demonstrate how he cannot make absolutist statements about the supposed existence of his clan ancestor at a particular time period. He never claimed oral History alone states that his ancestor lived 900 years ago etc. nor did I challenge him on such a claim. Drobbah simply stated that Habar Awal DNA matches the History of his clan. I simply stated that it is not possible to assign a date to the existence of his clan ancestor to a particular time period due to lack of firm written evidence.

Furthermore, I did not state my oral History talks about the existence of a pre-Islamic Dir clan identity. I based that on my own analysis of Somali clan names, the purported date of Somalis being converted to Islam, the oldest written text which lists Somali clans (Futuh Al Habash) and the genetic genealogy age of certain Somalis DNA lineages. I also never tried to pass this off as fact but spoke hypothetically, whereas Drobbah, was firm in his statement that History stated his clan ancestor lived at so and so date. You are comparing apples to oranges and inserting yourself into a debate which you do not seem to have acquired a grasp of.

Lastly, you are making amateur mistakes when discussing DNA lineages by assuming that because Samane Abokor live on the coast they should be E-V32 because some neighbouring clans are according to your observations. How is that logical when there has been a constant movement of people in Northern Somalia with people of diverse lineages neighbouring each other. For instance, Isaaq T's are very closely related to Samarons, and to an extent, Ciise T's too. These lineages do not really border each other yet they share the same ancestor going back around a millennium or so. At some point in History, they all neighboured each other and came under the same clan lineage but they parted ways and do not have a direct land border.

Closer to home, you stated that the main lineage of Maxamed Abokor is haplogroup T. If I am not mistaken, before migrating South all the way to Hawd, Maxamed Abokor and Samane Abokor were coastal clans and some still inhabit the Saxil area bordering the Ciise Muuse. Hence, your assertion that Saxil Habar Jeclo clans should be E-V32 is illogical because the coastal area would have been genetically mixed historically speaking. If there are still Maxamed Abokor T subclans inhabiting the area, how can you deduce that Samane Abokor will be E-V32 when all Samane Abokor have coastal origins and it is very possible that the T haplogroup Samane Abokor example I gave you will not be uncommon among the clan just like how Haplogroup T is common among Maxamed Abokor?

It is not wise to assume that geography could be the main deciding factor in the Y-dna make-up of Northern Somalia as there is currently no clear demarcation where T ends and E-V32 begins in the Coastal area.

NetNomad
05-20-2021, 10:10 AM
They are definitely a lot more E-V32 and other E-M78 lineages among us Isaaq.We just need more people from various subclans especially the smaller ones to take the test.I think the vast majority of Isaaqs will be E-BY155996+,T-FGC92488,E-V22,E-M78*,E-V16 and probably some J1-P58 as well.Tbh I think Isaaqs will end up being the most diverse "Somali" clan in Somaliweyn when it comes to indigenous pre-medieval lineages.

I think there will be rare non-E-Y18629 lineages in all areas of Somaliweyn (mostly various E-M35 types). Trombetta et al. 2015 found 1 E-Y5874 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y5874/) carrier out of the just 5 people he sampled from Puntland. In the study it says E-V1792, but on yfull it is roughly equivalent to Y5874 (checked with isogg). It is distantly related to E-M293.

Likely the areas with more rainfall in Somaliweyn will have a higher diversity of Ys (Western Somaliland, Somalia to the South of Galgaduud). This pattern is true for the Middle East (Levant vs Arabia – discounting the recent cosmopolitan origin lineages in Arabia).

Omaar
05-20-2021, 11:11 AM
I think there will be rare non-E-Y18629 lineages in all areas of Somaliweyn (mostly various E-M35 types). Trombetta et al. 2015 found 1 E-Y5874 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y5874/) carrier out of the just 5 people he sampled from Puntland. In the study it says E-V1792, but on yfull it is roughly equivalent to Y5874 (checked with isogg). It is distantly related to E-M293.

Likely the areas with more rainfall in Somaliweyn will have a higher diversity of Ys (Western Somaliland, Somalia to the South of Galgaduud). This pattern is true for the Middle East (Levant vs Arabia – discounting the recent cosmopolitan origin lineages in Arabia).

E-M215 in East Africa- Trombetta (2015)

Somali , Djibouti (N=40)-> - E-V32;25.0%
Somali , Ethiopia (N=12)-> E-V2881*;16.7%, - E-V22;8.3%, - E-V32;25.0%
Somali , Somalia (N=5)-> E-V1792;20%, - E-V32;80.0%
Somali, Kenya (N=6) -> E-V2881*;16.7% , E-V6;16.7% , - E-V32;66.7%

For comparison

Tigre, Eritrea (N=5)-> E-V1515*;20.0% - E-V6;20.0% -E-V32;60.0%
Nara, Eritrea (N=15)->E-V1515*;13.3% - E-V1486*;6.7% - E-V42;13.3% - E-V6;6.7% - E-V22;6.7% - E-V32;13.3%
Cumana, Eritrea (N=20)-> E-V2881*;5.0% - E-V42;15.0% - E-V1785*;10.0% - E-V6;5.0% - E-M34;5.0% - E-V22;5.0% - E-V32;20.0%
Saho, Eritrea (N=94)-> E-V6;8.5% - E-M34;1.1%- E-V22;88.3% - - E-V6;6.7% - - E-V1083*;1.1%

Afar, Djibouti (N=25)-> - E-V6;56.0%, - E-M34;4.0%.

Source:ETHIO HELIX

drobbah
05-20-2021, 03:06 PM
I think there will be rare non-E-Y18629 lineages in all areas of Somaliweyn (mostly various E-M35 types). Trombetta et al. 2015 found 1 E-Y5874 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y5874/) carrier out of the just 5 people he sampled from Puntland. In the study it says E-V1792, but on yfull it is roughly equivalent to Y5874 (checked with isogg). It is distantly related to E-M293.

Likely the areas with more rainfall in Somaliweyn will have a higher diversity of Ys (Western Somaliland, Somalia to the South of Galgaduud). This pattern is true for the Middle East (Levant vs Arabia – discounting the recent cosmopolitan origin lineages in Arabia).
The only results from the cultivating communities in Ethiopia (extension of Gabiley/Awdal) I have seen are the Samarone & Jibriil Abokor who both don't seem diverse at all, the Cisse as well don't seem diverse either besides the occasional Afar E-V6.I haven't seen any results from the Jidwaaq clans,Geri & Barsuug tho so it's to early to tell.The non E-V32 & T-M70 lineages in SL seems to be concentrated in central & eastern Somaliland & Ethio Hawd.Puntland & the Eastern Sanaag & Eastern Sool seems to be where J1 peaks in Somaliweyn but I'm not sure if those J-P58 are pre-Islamic or medieval or perhaps a mix of both.

Awale
05-20-2021, 04:54 PM
The only results from the cultivating communities in Ethiopia (extension of Gabiley/Awdal) I have seen are the Samarone & Jibriil Abokor who both don't seem diverse at all, the Cisse as well don't seem diverse either besides the occasional Afar E-V6.I haven't seen any results from the Jidwaaq clans,Geri & Barsuug tho so it's to early to tell.The non E-V32 & T-M70 lineages in SL seems to be concentrated in central & eastern Somaliland & Ethio Hawd.Puntland & the Eastern Sanaag & Eastern Sool seems to be where J1 peaks in Somaliweyn but I'm not sure if those J-P58 are pre-Islamic or medieval or perhaps a mix of both.

How many samples have people actually seen from eastern Sanaag & Bari who turn up J-P58? I remember having at least 2-3 such relatives myself on 23andme but only really see 1 reer Sanaag chap on yFull.

drobbah
05-20-2021, 05:05 PM
How many samples have people actually seen from eastern Sanaag & Bari who turn up J-P58? I remember having at least 2-3 such relatives myself on 23andme but only really see 1 reer Sanaag chap on yFull.
I have seen a handful on 23&me and ftdna but I think J-P58 will also start turning up in non-Harti Landers perhaps among specific small subsections of major Isaaq subclans and the artisinal castes.I remember Megatron said he was in a contact with a Habar Jeclo J-P58.

That lone Somali J-P58 samples has a 2300 ybp tmrca with a Yemeni from San3a & a Saudi.If it was medieval you would think he would fall under the Mahra/Omani dominated branches.Perhaps J-P58 in the Northern parts of Somaliweyn is older than we think.Perhaps it might explain the Ancient Yemenite inscriptions in SL.

Does anyone know if the Afar J1 is mostly P56 or P58?

Awale
05-20-2021, 05:35 PM
I have seen a handful on 23&me and ftdna but I think J-P58 will also start turning up in non-Harti Landers perhaps among specific small subsections of major Isaaq subclans and the artisinal castes.I remember Megatron said he was in a contact with a Habar Jeclo J-P58.

That lone Somali J-P58 samples has a 2300 ybp tmrca with a Yemeni from San3a & a Saudi.If it was medieval you would think he would fall under the Mahra/Omani dominated branches.Perhaps J-P58 in the Northern parts of Somaliweyn is older than we think.Perhaps it might explain the Ancient Yemenite inscriptions in SL.

Does anyone know if the Afar J1 is mostly P56 or P58?

No idea regarding the Afar but I've always assumed their clades will likely align with Habeshas. Despite what Lank and I noticed years ago regarding the error in Pagani et al. regarding listing what were seemingly Xamir Agaws as "Afar", when I contacted Pagani he seemed to think this was in fact a mistake the other way around and removed the info about Xamtanga speakers and I think I saw some later Afar samples that looked similar to those old ones. Afar Y-DNA diversity, once you account for the elevated E-V6 also looks pretty similar to Highland Ethiopian groups. This is why I kept pointing that out in the other thread. Afars look genetically like what one might expect of reer Awdal and reer Woqooyi if they really did assimilate swathes of Southern Ethiosemites which doesn't seem to be the case.


That lone Somali J-P58 samples has a 2300 ybp tmrca with a Yemeni from San3a & a Saudi.If it was medieval you would think he would fall under the Mahra/Omani dominated branches.Perhaps J-P58 in the Northern parts of Somaliweyn is older than we think.Perhaps it might explain the Ancient Yemenite inscriptions in SL.

Fair point. But, to be just a bit off-topic, I wish people like Sade Mire would publish what the inscriptions they've seen actually look like more often, though. There have been scholarly writings about inscriptions all over the north from Bari to Awdal going way back and many posited that some of the inscriptions were unique and not necessarily Musnad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_South_Arabian_script) and when I showed Agamemnon this (https://www.google.com/search?q=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwigobjO5djwAhVCihoKHeMGC-QQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CrG1iGIWDbI2gAcAB4AIABiQKIAZcPkgE DMi04mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=kZ2mYOCUIcKUauONrKAO&bih=792&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBD_enAE859AE859&safe=strict#imgrc=l6qcr94TYa21uM) he pointed out that they didn't look like any Musnad characters he knew which, upon really looking, I agree with. And then there's the weird spread of all the ancient inscriptions. They're found everywhere, even in caves under the old pastoral cave paintings, supposedly. Doesn't sound like something foreigners who'd mostly stay by the coastal towns would do. We might be seeing a situation in northern Somali territory similar to how Arabia used to be in the period before Islam where a large segment of the population, including the nomads, surprisingly knew how to read and write and left inscriptions of various sorts everywhere. Agamemnon once pointed out to me that it would be hard to believe that the coastal Cushites of the classical era didn't have some form of writing in their towns given that they were constantly trading with Greco-Romans, Indians, Arabians and so forth. He might be right and our ancient predecessors may have adapted something from Musnad. I mean our ancestors certainly wasted no time adopting Arabic as a writing system and written language during the Islamic period so who knows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRbuu8c8nw&ab_channel=%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8 %B1%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AADaralAtharMuse um-Kuwait%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D 8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AADaralAtharMuse um-Kuwait

Megatron
05-20-2021, 07:59 PM
@eli

The point is, you can not invoke textual evidence as the standard metric when you engage in pseudo history. The statement that Samaale, Dir etc are pre-Islamic clan groupings is false because there is no evidence supporting it. Wether you used deductive reasoning or not is irrelevant.

All the results I have seen and matched with from eastern Sahil including my own Mahamed Abokor have been E-V32. So my personal forecast was based on the expected outcome not my own desire because it doesn’t benefit me in any way if Samane is T-L208 or E-V32.

I disagree.. apart from the documented migrations of Somalis, the other alleged migrations based on oral history must be scrutinized. Your example is also quite baseless because I could sire children in different parts of the same country without them ever getting to know one another. The idea that Isaaq T’s and Samarone T’s and Iise T’s lived in the same area and were (allegedly) part of the same clan grouping is based on your own assumption.

With that said, let’s not derail the thread m8.

eli
05-20-2021, 08:50 PM
@eli

The point is, you can not invoke textual evidence as the standard metric when you engage in pseudo history. The statement that Samaale, Dir etc are pre-Islamic clan groupings is false because there is no evidence supporting it. Wether you used deductive reasoning or not is irrelevant.

All the results I have seen and matched with from eastern Sahil including my own Mahamed Abokor have been E-V32. So my personal forecast was based on the expected outcome not my own desire because it doesn’t benefit me in any way if Samane is T-L208 or E-V32.

I disagree.. apart from the documented migrations of Somalis, the other alleged migrations based on oral history must be scrutinized. Your example is also quite baseless because I could sire children in different parts of the same country without them ever getting to know one another. The idea that Isaaq T’s and Samarone T’s and Iise T’s lived in the same area and were (allegedly) part of the same clan grouping is based on your own assumption.

With that said, let’s not derail the thread m8.

Yes, it can be false as to whether they are pre-Islamic confederacies, hence, why I stated it is a theory, not a fact. However, your statement comparing my theory to Drobbah's assertion that History matches his DNA lineage is comparing apples and oranges. Drobbah never stated his 'History' was a theory so what are you getting at?

The results you have seen are subjective not authoritative. As I highlighted, both Samane and Mahamed Abokoor were coastal clans who migrated South so there is no scientific reasoning which can indicate what their respective Haplogroup breakdown will be based on their current residence. Clans did not migrate along Haplogroup lines especially if they were mixed to begin with as you have already demonstrated with your statement that Maxamamed Abokor possess E-V32 but their main lineage might be T. How can anyone tell they divided themselves along Haplogroup groups when they left the Saxil coast and migrated South in recent History?

It is a logical assumption to make that Samaron and Isaaq T's who belong to the same subclade currently identified on YFull lived in the same area and belonged to the same clan grouping as they would clearly have been sired by a single individual who would not have lived in isolation. Pastoral Cushitic ethnic groups were tribal even before the advent of Islam as is evident in the neighbouring Oromo ethnic group. Hence, there is migratory evidence indicating their lineage became dispersed throughout Northern Somalia. For instance, my own Somali T subclade is now found in both Hiiraan and Mudug. Both samples belong to the same clan yet they do not border each other and have not for centuries even though they both descend from the same ancestor according to y-dna YFull results.

Yeah, let's not derail the thread. Back to genetics, you stated that Isaaq E-V32's will be close and I asked you what was the reasoning behind that statement. You still haven't elaborated how you came to that conclusion. Drobbah was kind enough to point out that if you share the same lineage as your fellow Habar Jeclo Lank, you will not be close. What were you basing your assumption that Isaaq E-V32's will be closely related? Geographical proximity?

Mirix
05-20-2021, 09:59 PM
No idea regarding the Afar but I've always assumed their clades will likely align with Habeshas. Despite what Lank and I noticed years ago regarding the error in Pagani et al. regarding listing what were seemingly Xamir Agaws as "Afar", when I contacted Pagani he seemed to think this was in fact a mistake the other way around and removed the info about Xamtanga speakers and I think I saw some later Afar samples that looked similar to those old ones. Afar Y-DNA diversity, once you account for the elevated E-V6 also looks pretty similar to Highland Ethiopian groups. This is why I kept pointing that out in the other thread. Afars look genetically like what one might expect of reer Awdal and reer Woqooyi if they really did assimilate swathes of Southern Ethiosemites which doesn't seem to be the case.



Fair point. But, to be just a bit off-topic, I wish people like Sade Mire would publish what the inscriptions they've seen actually look like more often, though. There have been scholarly writings about inscriptions all over the north from Bari to Awdal going way back and many posited that some of the inscriptions were unique and not necessarily Musnad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_South_Arabian_script) and when I showed Agamemnon this (https://www.google.com/search?q=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwigobjO5djwAhVCihoKHeMGC-QQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CrG1iGIWDbI2gAcAB4AIABiQKIAZcPkgE DMi04mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=kZ2mYOCUIcKUauONrKAO&bih=792&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBD_enAE859AE859&safe=strict#imgrc=l6qcr94TYa21uM) he pointed out that they didn't look like any Musnad characters he knew which, upon really looking, I agree with. And then there's the weird spread of all the ancient inscriptions. They're found everywhere, even in caves under the old pastoral cave paintings, supposedly. Doesn't sound like something foreigners who'd mostly stay by the coastal towns would do. We might be seeing a situation in northern Somali territory similar to how Arabia used to be in the period before Islam where a large segment of the population, including the nomads, surprisingly knew how to read and write and left inscriptions of various sorts everywhere. Agamemnon once pointed out to me that it would be hard to believe that the coastal Cushites of the classical era didn't have some form of writing in their towns given that they were constantly trading with Greco-Romans, Indians, Arabians and so forth. He might be right and our ancient predecessors may have adapted something from Musnad. I mean our ancestors certainly wasted no time adopting Arabic as a writing system and written language during the Islamic period so who knows.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHRbuu8c8nw&ab_channel=%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8 %B1%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AADaralAtharMuse um-Kuwait%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AD%D9%81%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D 8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%AADaralAtharMuse um-Kuwait

Agamemnon may very well be right writing is needed for record keeping for trade,business, and inventory etc. According to Roman writer Pliny the Elder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) one of the coastal ports like Bulhar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulhar) , which he called the port of Isis had two inside gates one which had stone monements that were engraved in some unknown letters. Anthropos (https://books.google.cd/books?id=Ko7PAAAAMAAJ&q=bulhar+port+of+isis&dq=bulhar+port+of+isis&hl=no&sa=X)


Port of Isis ( Bulhar ) the next place of call . Off this roadstead were two islands called Pseudopilae , where PLINY says there were found “ stone stelae inscribed with unknown letters ” .

Wouldn't be surprising if they wrote on some earlier Musnad scripts. It makes sense considering the geography and their neighbors. They may also be the posibility some of those writings were left by visitors. Because Sada Mire said she also found Tiffnagh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tifinagh) writing. Which i found odd. But then again unlike it, those other inscriptions look like some proto letters and widely distributed across the interior and inside caves for it to be migrants or visitors. For example In Laas Gaal, near Hargeysa, there are as many as 600 inscriptions in the scene; and in the Lag Oda, near Dirir Dhabe, there are about 800 of them. But these are only a few places that are investigated. They are also all over the place in Somaliland & Puntland found in i different Taalos(Stone mounds) , rocks and ancient burials etc , and in other caves.

Then there is also this potential script posted by Robert Kulvjer (https://www.google.com/search?q=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwigobjO5djwAhVCihoKHeMGC-QQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=somaliland+ancient+inscriptions&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1CrG1iGIWDbI2gAcAB4AIABiQKIAZcPkgE DMi04mAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=kZ2mYOCUIcKUauONrKAO&bih=792&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBD_enAE859AE859&safe=strict#imgrc=HtdWqJXtV-yLfM) on this stone tablet.


Hopefully when they open up the new Somaliland museum (https://www.facebook.com/somaliland.national.museum1/) we will finally get some information on the nature of them as they will be available to experts. And decipher whats actually written in them.

Dr Ahmad Al-Jallad said that the different Arab writing scripts used in Arabia fell out of use because they were associated with pagan religions. Aramaic script was adopted because of its dissociation and in the beginning they only wrote in the Aramaic language, then slowly adopted the script for Arabic. Possible what happened in Northern Somali coast scripts when Islam & other religions came to the horn it was replaced by Arabic script because the old ones was associated paganism , they began develope similarly with Wadaad writing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadaad_writing). Who knows maybe they started to write many ajami texts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajami_script) with it before it had an abrupt end in the late 16th collapse. Before a revival 2 centuries later.

Megatron
05-20-2021, 10:11 PM
@eli

Your statement was not presented as a theory and that makes it disingenuous.

Not once have I claimed that my observation was authoritative lol.

T seem to be the main lineage based on preliminary results but as I stated before, I’ve seen a handful of Mahamed Abokor E-V32 from Sahil and Hawd. Including different Ahmed Farah sub clans. If Ahmed Farah is predominantly E-V32 then there is no doubt that Mahamed Abokor’s main lineage will be E-V32 since they would tip the scale.

Can you actually prove that Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s belonged to the same clan grouping at any point in time or that they dispersed from the same area. Their TMRCA is 1000ybp. There was a Libyan individual sharing a MRCA with a Somali that was estimated to be 500ybp. One individual that migrated and sired offspring in different parts of Africa. Who’s to say that couldn’t happen in present day Somaliland or any other part of the Somali peninsula?

I have my own theory about Isaaq E-V32 that I’ll share once I get my results.

eli
05-20-2021, 11:37 PM
@eli

Your statement was not presented as a theory and that makes it disingenuous.

Not once have I claimed that my observation was authoritative lol.

T seem to be the main lineage based on preliminary results but as I stated before, I’ve seen a handful of Mahamed Abokor E-V32 from Sahil and Hawd. Including different Ahmed Farah sub clans. If Ahmed Farah is predominantly E-V32 then there is no doubt that Mahamed Abokor’s main lineage will be E-V32 since they would tip the scale.

Can you actually prove that Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s belonged to the same clan grouping at any point in time or that they dispersed from the same area. Their TMRCA is 1000ybp. There was a Libyan individual sharing a MRCA with a Somali that was estimated to be 500ybp. One individual that migrated and sired offspring in different parts of Africa. Who’s to say that couldn’t happen in present day Somaliland or any other part of the Somali peninsula?

I have my own theory about Isaaq E-V32 that I’ll share once I get my results.

I clearly stated in my initial reply to Almagest that my ideas about the pagan identity of old Somali clans were an opinion, not a fact. Please, read my posts carefully before making stupid assumptions.


The same is also true of Habar Awals who are not E-V32 as there are individuals from both Sacad and Ciise Muuse who have tested T but may not be loud about it because of genetic stereotypes being promoted on forums.

It is not a group thing but certain individuals have been very active in pushing that Clan X = Haplogroup X. This is evident even in this thread when there is a scarcity of Somali YFull results and people are indirectly labelling others Sheegaad. I am of the opinion that old clan identities which predate Islam such as Dir, Hawiye, Daarood etc. are confederacies. Nonetheless, clans which into existence after the adoption of Islam within the past 500 to 700 years or so are not necessarily confederacies. Larger subclans will most likely have adoptees but this will be better observed when the Somali YFull trees have more results.

In contrast, Drobbah did not pass of his assertion as an opinion, hence, why I picked on his intransigent stance. See why I have repeatedly stated that you have been comparing apples and oranges?

I never assumed you were making an authoritative statement about the results you had come across. It would be silly of me to expect you to have information on every clan member of yours who has done a 23andme test etc. thus why I shared the Samane Abokor test result with you.

The Libyan analogy you presented is folly as he clearly has a Somali lineage in a non-Somali ethnic group. The Isaaq, Ciise and Samaron have historically been neighbouring clans who belong to the same ethnic group and their T bearing individuals tested so far share a common ancestry. Unlike the Libyan analogy, there is nothing out of the ordinary in them sharing the same paternal ancestry. Furthermore, considering that pastoralism has an ancient history among Somalis, it is within reason to conclude that around 1000 years ago, the ancestor of the T Isaaqs; Samarons etc. would have been part of the same pastoral clan unit.

As you are questioning my reasoning, may I ask why you never raised an objection when Drobbah propagated the more unorthodox idea that the various E1b1b lineages, including yours, found in North-Western Somalia were assimilated into the Samaale ethnic group by a nomadic clan consisting of the T bearing ancestors of the above clans who migrated West from areas further East?


E-FT18121 only has three branches.My current theory is that E-Y18637 is associated with the mythical Samaale Somali speaking camel herders and their expansion all over Somaliweyn.

E-BY155996 represents the urbanized non-Somali population of Western Somaliland.I think the Isaaq clan was an assimilation process between the dominant Somali nomads (Mostly T carrying Dir from Sanaag) with the farming and merchant locals after the collapse of the medieval state of Adal.While the artisinal castes were subjugated under a caste system.Sada Miire has interesting theory that Yibir for example is actually an Ethio-Semitic word for tax collecting.

E-Y163928 would represent the urban population possibly non-Somali population of Sanaag who were Somalianized.The fact that Daarood always had the tradition they weren't Samaale and the story of marrying a wife of Dir imo seems to suggest they were Somalianized by E-BY8081 and local T lineages.I think someone here posted about a village of Ogaden men in Ethiopia who were majority T-M70+

Some Somali clans by the time of the Futuh were living within the Sultanate of Adal but the vast majority didn't.Some of the clans that lived there are Gerri Koombe (Daarood),Yabarre (Daarood),Habar Maqdi (possibly Samarone),Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Arab & Ayuub).Mareexaan lived on the periphery and so did the Harti (people of Maydh).When the Marexaan killed the Adalite messenger he fled to what the chronicler called the land of the Somalis where the Hawiye lived.The incursions of these clans into the territory of the Sultanate Western & Central Somaliland & Hawd was probably when the nomads ultimately became Muslims imo (13th century)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig4_HTML.gif?as=webp
Some sources about medieval Somaliland from StateHorn


44590
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Why wait for your results to come out? Drop your theory so we may at least have an understanding of your thought process. Give us the opportunity to critique your theory?

drobbah
05-21-2021, 01:12 AM
Yeah, let's not derail the thread. Back to genetics, you stated that Isaaq E-V32's will be close and I asked you what was the reasoning behind that statement. You still haven't elaborated how you came to that conclusion. Drobbah was kind enough to point out that if you share the same lineage as your fellow Habar Jeclo Lank, you will not be close. What were you basing your assumption that Isaaq E-V32's will be closely related? Geographical proximity?
Lank is an Eritrean dude but I don't think there's anything wrong in assuming Isaaqs will roughly fall under E-BY155996 since the various E-V32 subclades mostly (there are outliers) correspond with the confederation the Somali belongs too like E-Y163928 being dominated by the Harti + Ogaden (Daaroods).Do I think the Habar Jeclo will fall under the HA E-BY75676, not at all, but E-BY155996 is an old lineage (2700 year old) and we are likely to see a lot of substructure once those E-V32 non-HA Isaaqs or perhaps even Southern Dir E-V32 members take the BigY. Based on strs I think that Muse Dhariyo sample & lavrok as well will likely fall under E-BY155996.


I clearly stated in my initial reply to Almagest that my ideas about the pagan identity of old Somali clans were an opinion, not a fact. Please, read my posts carefully before making stupid assumptions.



In contrast, Drobbah did not pass of his assertion as an opinion, hence, why I picked on his intransigent stance. See why I have repeatedly stated that you have been comparing apples and oranges?

The thing is that part of having discussions entails that sometimes people are likely to have differing viewpoints and opinions. I have never presented my predictions as facts brother and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong and educated once we have concrete evidence.


it is within reason to conclude that around 1000 years ago, the ancestor of the T Isaaqs; Samarons etc. would have been part of the same pastoral clan unit.


But's it's not ok for the Habar Awal to come to the same conclusion that they are mostly likely recently related and belonged to the same pastoral unit 800-900 years ago because we might need more CM samples since according to you one isn't good enough (I agree with you, we need more) but 1 samarone sample is good enough to represent that whole clan? There are 5 T-FGC92488 (that I have seen maybe there's more of them idk) and 4 HA E-BY75676 with an even younger lineage yet you can make the claim of recent heritage but the Habar Awal can't. Seems like a double standard if you ask me.

eli
05-21-2021, 02:32 AM
Lank is an Eritrean dude but I don't think there's anything wrong in assuming Isaaqs will roughly fall under E-BY155996 since the various E-V32 subclades mostly (there are outliers) correspond with the confederation the Somali belongs too like E-Y163928 being dominated by the Harti + Ogaden (Daaroods).Do I think the Habar Jeclo will fall under the HA E-BY75676, not at al but E-BY155996 is an old lineage (2700 year old) and we are likely to see a lot of substructure once those E-V32 non-HA Isaaqs or perhaps even Southern Dir E-V32 members take the BigY.Based on strs I think that Muse Dhariyo sample & lavrok as well will likely fall under E-BY155996.

Thanks for the clarification regarding Lank.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a theory. I have already made it plain to you in the Y16897 thread that I do not necessarily think that clan myths, including my own, are compatible with genetic genealogy. As a matter of fact, it is I who suggested to you that there is a possibility that your E-V32 subclade might be found among Dir E-V32's; the Muuse Dhariye sample is an example of this. Moreover, I do not think it is reasonable to make statements about genetic genealogy without at least presenting a logical case as to why one thinks results will go a certain why. You have made a case which can be challenged or accepted. However, in Megatron's case, it is intellectual cowardice to make a statement saying Isaaq E-V32's will be closely matched without presenting a theory forward. How can you be critical of others when you are not willing to have your own ideas critiqued?


The thing is that part of having discussions entails that sometimes people are likely to have differing viewpoints and opinions. I have never presented my predictions as facts brother and I'm more than willing to be proven wrong and educated once we have concrete evidence.

Let us keep it real bro. Not at one point did you make an attempt to pass off your initial statement about your clan's history as an opinion or theory. My initial statement to Almagest might not have been explanatory enough but I made it plainly clear in subsequent posts that I was speaking hypothetically. Hence, why I was questioning why Megatron was injecting himself into a conversation which he obviously misread.

Moroever, you replied to my Almagest comment with all guns blazing. I never denied that there is trend particularly regarding the Abokor and the Ciise Muuse samples. When I asked for any textual evidence regarding your claims, it was rhetorical. The point I was trying to prove is that don't be overzealous in assigning a date to the existence of your shared ancestor with Almagest in light of the fact that Somalis as a whole do not have any firm evidence of when our respective distant subclan ancestors lived. Your reply to my rhetorical question was not mature at all, you put up a defensive wall and refused to address the questions I posed to you. Moreover, you kept bringing Garxajis into our exchange. What have they got to do with our conversation? I am not Garxajis! Your clan ego was getting the better of you for some reason bro. For what it matters, the Abokoor lineage looks legit in my opinion and I ain't trying to cast doubt on the possibility that other Ciise Muuse and Sacad Muuse E-V32 samples will share the same post-millennium ancestor. All I am saying is play the long game before fully committing to a stance. For instance, look at how the Maxamud Saleeban Harti samples have already thrown us a curve ball with one Cusman Maxamud sample matching Cumar Maxamud rather than the other Cusman Maxamuds.


But's it's not ok for the Habar Awal to come to the same conclusion that they are mostly likely recently related and belonged to the same pastoral unit 800-900 years ago because we might need more CM samples since according to you one isn't good enough (I agree with you, we need more) but 1 samarone sample is good enough to represent that whole clan? There are 5 T-FGC92488 (that I have seen maybe there's more of them idk) and 4 HA E-BY75676 with an even younger lineage yet you can make the claim of recent heritage but the Habar Awal can't. Seems like a double standard if you ask me.

In my latest post, I made it clear that I was referring to the current test results we have of Isaaq, Samaron and Ciise T's.


The Isaaq, Ciise and Samaron have historically been neighbouring clans who belong to the same ethnic group and their T bearing individuals tested so far share a common ancestry.

For the record, I was not generalising for all individuals in the above clans. I have also never argued against idea that you and the Ciise Muuse sample did not belong to the same clan unit 900 years ago etc. Logic suggests that this would have been the case in a traditionally clan-structured pastoral society.

Mirix
05-21-2021, 12:15 PM
E-FT18121 only has three branches.My current theory is that E-Y18637 is associated with the mythical Samaale Somali speaking camel herders and their expansion all over Somaliweyn.

E-BY155996 represents the urbanized non-Somali population of Western Somaliland.I think the Isaaq clan was an assimilation process between the dominant Somali nomads (Mostly T carrying Dir from Sanaag) with the farming and merchant locals after the collapse of the medieval state of Adal.While the artisinal castes were subjugated under a caste system.Sada Miire has interesting theory that Yibir for example is actually an Ethio-Semitic word for tax collecting.

E-Y163928 would represent the urban population possibly non-Somali population of Sanaag who were Somalianized.The fact that Daarood always had the tradition they weren't Samaale and the story of marrying a wife of Dir imo seems to suggest they were Somalianized by E-BY8081 and local T lineages.I think someone here posted about a village of Ogaden men in Ethiopia who were majority T-M70+

Some Somali clans by the time of the Futuh were living within the Sultanate of Adal but the vast majority didn't.Some of the clans that lived there are Gerri Koombe (Daarood),Yabarre (Daarood),Habar Maqdi (possibly Samarone),Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Arab & Ayuub).Mareexaan lived on the periphery and so did the Harti (people of Maydh).When the Marexaan killed the Adalite messenger he fled to what the chronicler called the land of the Somalis where the Hawiye lived.The incursions of these clans into the territory of the Sultanate Western & Central Somaliland & Hawd was probably when the nomads ultimately became Muslims imo (13th century)

https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs10437-015-9184-9/MediaObjects/10437_2015_9184_Fig4_HTML.gif?as=webp
Some sources about medieval Somaliland from StateHorn


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There is no evidence of an substantive urbanized non-Somali population anywhere in Western Somaliland. It is hard to even push such notions when there are big urban Muslim cities in the east recorded even from 12th century and sparsely located all over the place in the interiors which according to your logic above they should all be nomads and not be muslims.


Also most of the crafts people and smiths in the urban cities of Harar and berbera or Dakar was Somalis and they were not from castes clans either, especially at the time such things never existed in either Adal Sultanate or Harar Emirate and same with the cultvators around awdal: Like i have shown in this post: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772404#post772404

Somalis lived spread out across a wide expansive territories and practiced different economic activities depending on the lay out the land and the suitibility

Sada Mire never said Yibir was an ethio-semetic word for tax collection. Infact she was disagreeing with that interpretation and said:

However, Samaanyo is nowadays paid not as a tax but as a means of gaining a blessing or avoiding a curse , the threat of which is said to have been every bit as powerful in the past as it is percieveved to be today:


Yibir class exist like i said in a different thread in the deep the southern pagan Rendille group who are closely related to Somalis. Virginia Luling gave an explanation for them and fits with the information above:


“The Rendille have been shown to be extremely close linguistically to the Somali, and the likelihood is that they were culturally so before the Somali became converted to Islam, in fact that the two culturesdeveloped from a common origin

An important ritual grouping among the Rendille is the Ibire (sg. Ibir) - evidently the same word as the Somali Yibir. The Ibire are men from certain lineages who enjoy high religious statues – in fact the Rendille are divided into Ibire and Wakhkamure, who are the rest of the male population, in a way reminiscent of the traditional Somali distinction between Wadaado and Waranleh. The Ibire however are chiefly respected and feared for the power of their curse. Since their position is central in Rendille society, this is always exercised deviants, to maintain justice and the Social order. And yet these pillars of society share a name with the despised anti-social vagabonds among the Somali. But the Somali Yibir also have extraordinary powers attributed to them, and are feared for the power of the curse.”


And the Blood group testing on the bondsmen groups (https://www.jstor.org/stable/2798085?seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents) The result showed that they are identical to other Somalis.

The lack of differentiation shows how recent this bondsmen relationship formed, because they have been said to be endegamous and . If they were for several centuries than there would be genetic differences and if they were a seperate group even more so. Some Madhiban trace descent from Dir, Some Tumaal trace descent from Darood etc. And fits with my explanation that this type of relationship formed when the economy went from a food surplus to on of substinence. Post 16th century.

And then a recent Genome-wide analysis on the Somali population (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62645-0#Sec8). Shows Somalis from across different clans and locations shows they have similar proportions of ancient ancestry and are infact homogenous. No substratum is observed genetically speaking.

However, recent evidences based on Y-STR haplotypes studied on Somalis from diverse geographic locations and clans suggest that ethnic Somalis are largely homogenous17, supporting the representativeness of our samples for the larger Somali population. In addition, frequencies of ABO and Rh blood groups estimated in this study are consistent with those found in an earlier study performed in 1987 by the Somali Red Crescent Society and the Finnish Red Cross Blood Transfusion Service who analyzed 1,026 blood samples of Somalis from the entire country

One of study which states: The results are consistent with hypothesis, supported by cultural and historical evidence, of common origin of the Somali population.



And also about the Marehan leader which keeps getting refrenced. And we all know in various sultanates and kingdoms Somalis had to subjugate and bring other Somalis under their rule, from Geledi vs Biimaal. Hobyo vs Hawiye etc etc I don't see how this is any different and proves they were seperate or invasion or something. Merahan and various clans were living near Harar at the time as well.

I also find it disingenous to mention Sada Mire when she stresses the local origins of these cities and settlements by Somalis and were connected to hinterland trades routes. (https://books.google.ca/books?id=J6nODwAAQBAJ&pg=PA129&dq=divine+fertility+pastoral+trading+communities&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB5uyLk7DvAhVxx4sKHUdeAp0Q6AEwAHoECAUQA g#v=onepage&q=divine%20fertility%20pastoral%20trading%20commun ities&f=false)

She also stressed the fact that Somalis were were economically varied people throughout their history (https://twitter.com/SomaliHeritage/status/746261524558266368?s=20) and that they should reject this singular nomad identity. Something which i have stated is something born out of colonial Hamitic Myth (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772417#post772417) has no basis in any evidence but in ideology.

Some sources and archeological evidences presented by Sada Mire:


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Mirix
05-21-2021, 01:15 PM
There is far more Somali/East African migrations & settlements, gene flow into Arabia and Yemen than the opposite. This show by genome wide analysis in the neighboring Yemen and Omani populations (https://www.jstor.org/stable/45102107?seq=12#metadata_info_tab_contents)

Also is not suprising considering that in Rasulid dynasty chronicles (https://i.imgur.com/WGFJejE.png) it lists several prominent Jabartis and Zaylicis living and dying in Yemen. Many whom became prominent saints and have tombs in Yemen. As well as Ibn Mujawir that talks about different East African groups populating Aden in the 14th century, Somalis being a most prominent group from Zayla, Mogadishu and Berbera etc and dominating certain trade sections and having quarters. At one point el-Mujawir went on to record that the Berber (people of Berbera) had conquered Aden (https://books.google.cd/books?id=BsuNDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA96&dq=record+that+the+Berber+(people+of+Berbera)+had+ conquered+Aden+and+driven+out+the&hl=no&sa=X#v=onepage&q=record%20that%20the%20Berber%20(people%20of%20Be rbera)%20had%20conquered%20Aden%20and%20driven%20o ut%20the&f=false) and driven out colonists from Madagascar Al-qumr.


It is also not suprising when you consider how Somalis always had a policy in keeping foreign merchants & traders etc to the coastal plains and free from the interior . As this old letter describes about Berbera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbera#/media/File:Berbera_Somali_Exclusivity.png).

The interior trade routes connecting to the coast was controlled by Somalis. Rasulid Yemenis at one point tried extend and annex the coastal region around Zeila (books.google.cd/books?id=GWjxR61xAe0C&pg=PA153&dq=local+walasma+cambridge&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_k6Dm6NrwAhVtoosKHVLvCcgQ6AEwAHoECAEQA g#v=onepage&q=local%20walasma%20cambridge&f=false) but failed miserably as they were resisted by local clans that booted them out. Only local Somalis who controlled the interior had effective control over the coast.

Megatron
05-21-2021, 06:29 PM
@eli

The alleged existence of “pre-Islamic clan identities” is highly questionable, wether they were confederacies or not is totally irrelevant. Your statement made it is seem as if their existence is factual but it’s not. One cannot pick and choose when to invoke textual evidence and when to peddle pseudo history.

You clearly missed the point mate. The Libyan individual and Somali individual share a common ancestor that sired offspring in different parts of Africa (highly possible in different parts of the Somali peninsula). His direct descendants did not inhabit the same geographical area and it’s unlikely that they belonged to the same clan grouping because of the distance but also the social context being different.

Who’s to say that could not be the case with Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s? When there is no evidence of shared territory and dispersal from a single territory. Out of curiosity though, what was their alleged clan grouping? Dir?

I may have missed Drobbah’s post but I would be careful using terms like “Samaale”, “Dir” etc because it’s connected to pseudo history.

Wether I disclose my own theory or not is irrelevant. The FtDNA BigY and my own result is of major importance since it would relate my connection to other Somali E-V32, in particular Isaaq E-V32.

eli
05-21-2021, 07:10 PM
@eli

The alleged existence of “pre-Islamic clan identities” is highly questionable, wether they were confederacies or not is totally irrelevant. Your statement made it is seem as if their existence is factual but it’s not. One cannot pick and choose when to invoke textual evidence and when to peddle pseudo history.

You clearly missed the point mate. The Libyan individual and Somali individual share a common ancestor that sired offspring in different parts of Africa (highly possible in different parts of the Somali peninsula). His direct descendants did not inhabit the same geographical area and it’s unlikely that they belonged to the same clan grouping because of the distance but also the social context being different.

Who’s to say that could not be the case with Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s? When there is no evidence of shared territory and dispersal from a single territory. Out of curiosity though, what was their alleged clan grouping? Dir?

I may have missed Drobbah’s post but I would be careful using terms like “Samaale”, “Dir” etc because it’s connected to pseudo history.

Wether I disclose my own theory or not is irrelevant. The FtDNA BigY and my own result is of major importance since it would relate my connection to other Somali E-V32, in particular Isaaq E-V32.

I didn't miss the point with the Libyan but you missed my point about it being a false analogy. He is obviously an outlier in Libya who has Somali roots, whereas the Isaaq-Samaron subclade is not a foreign lineage among the Somali ethnic group. You are comparing apples and oranges again.

These clans border each other and their own Histories point towards a more Easterly origin for their respective clans. One can dismiss it as not solid written proof due to the oral nature of Somali History but it is corroborated by all three clans and not the product of an individual's thinking. Moreover, some of their clan myths point to a Historical association. For instance, the Habar Garxajis refers to a Garxajis Mandalug (Samaron's Ancestor) matriarch. As for what clan grouping they would have come under, it is fairly obvious that it would be the older Dir clan identity which precedes these clan identities, and is associated with all three even though many present day Isaaqs identify with a Hashemite ancestor that settled among 'indigenous' Dir clan members.

Megatron
05-21-2021, 10:52 PM
@eli

The Libyan mans status as an outlier is irrelevant. The point is, their MCRA sired offspring within the last 500 years that did not live in the same geographical area and most likely did not belong to the same clan grouping. This could very well be the case for Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s since there isn’t any evidence supporting the idea that they lived in the same geographical area and that they dispersed from a single territory.

That’s untrue. Isaaq T’s and Samarone/Iise T’s are separated by HA from the coast in Lughaya district to Faafan region in Ethiopia.

I have never heard Samarone and Iise claiming eastern Somaliland as their point of origin.

Habar Garhajis is actually HY, Eidagalla and Arap. The father of Daud and Said (Ismail) was the twin of Arap according to the legend. It has nothing to do with Samarone. The term Garhaji (Garhaajiye) means lawyer/attorney and it is part of the Somali Heer (customary law) terminology. It’s not an exclusive title.


There isn’t any evidence supporting the idea that a clan grouping called Dir existed in pre-Islamic times. The clan/name is not even mentioned in Futuh during the medieval period of the Islamic world. The idea that Isaaq T’s, Samarone T’s and Iise T’s were under the same Dir clan grouping is not feasible in my opinion.

Awale
05-21-2021, 11:00 PM
I have never heard Samarone and Iise claiming eastern Somaliland as their point of origin.

Isn't Sheikh Samaroon buried in Sanaag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKWJneE82R0&ab_channel=WARSAMEKAAFIMEDIAPRODUCTIONWARSAMEKAAFI MEDIAPRODUCTION)? And the Darood origin myth is that Sheikh Darood's wife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobira) was the Dir chieftain's daughter.