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Megatron
05-21-2021, 11:10 PM
Isn't Sheikh Samaroon buried in Sanaag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKWJneE82R0&ab_channel=WARSAMEKAAFIMEDIAPRODUCTIONWARSAMEKAAFI MEDIAPRODUCTION)? And the Darood origin myth is that Sheikh Darood's wife (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobira) was the Dir chieftain's daughter.

I donít know anything about Sheikh Samarone but what I do know is that some of the mausoleums have been constructed in recent times.

I heard Sheikh Darod married the daughter of Hawiyah. Some Dir claim their alleged clan patriarch did not have any daughters.

Awale
05-21-2021, 11:23 PM
I don’t know anything about Sheikh Samarone but what I do know is that some of the mausoleums have been constructed in recent times.

I heard Sheikh Darod married the daughter of Hawiyah. Some Dir claim their alleged clan patriarch did not have any daughters.

I've heard that alternate telling but the story is usually Dir as far as I know. And I did notice that about some of the tombs. They look pretty recent. And I agree with you that I have never heard of Dirs claiming they come from Sanaag though someone from any of their subclans can enlighten or correct us here.

Moderator
05-21-2021, 11:40 PM
This is a general warning to please follow the Terms of Service, and to remain on topic and not personalize arguments. If a fruitful discussion is to be had, arguing with each other is not going to facilitate this. This thread is being monitored.

eli
05-22-2021, 12:56 AM
@eli

The Libyan mans status as an outlier is irrelevant. The point is, their MCRA sired offspring within the last 500 years that did not live in the same geographical area and most likely did not belong to the same clan grouping. This could very well be the case for Isaaq Tís, Samarone Tís and Iise Tís since there isnít any evidence supporting the idea that they lived in the same geographical area and that they dispersed from a single territory.

Thatís untrue. Isaaq Tís and Samarone/Iise Tís are separated by HA from the coast in Lughaya district to Faafan region in Ethiopia.

I have never heard Samarone and Iise claiming eastern Somaliland as their point of origin.

Habar Garhajis is actually HY, Eidagalla and Arap. The father of Daud and Said (Ismail) was the twin of Arap according to the legend. It has nothing to do with Samarone. The term Garhaji (Garhaajiye) means lawyer/attorney and it is part of the Somali Heer (customary law) terminology. Itís not an exclusive title.


There isnít any evidence supporting the idea that a clan grouping called Dir existed in pre-Islamic times. The clan/name is not even mentioned in Futuh during the medieval period of the Islamic world. The idea that Isaaq Tís, Samarone Tís and Iise Tís were under the same Dir clan grouping is not feasible in my opinion.

Man, it is like beating a dead horse with your bro in regards to he Libyan analogy. The Libyan sample is an isolated lineage in Libya that is clearly the result of a Somali migrating there. His E-V32 lineage is indigenous to Somalia. The Somali T lineage subclade and its offshoots are found in clans who are associated with a Somali ethnic identity. They are not outliers as they belong to a longstanding and widespread lineage in Somali! Man, Apples and Bloody Oranges again!

Habar Awal might separate them but the borders you see today are not the same borders that existed in the past when the respective clans were smaller. For example, when carrying out research among the Ciise, I. M. Lewis encountered an oral History of one of the Ciise clans by Xeer known as Wardiq:

44751

You are consistently assuming that the clan borders you see today have been static for centuries. As Awale also rightly highlighted, the oral History of Samaron, and Ciise, state that they originate in Sanaag. My own subclan's oral History points to an origin North-Eastern Somalia and a small minority of my clansmen still live in Bari and Sanaag. The following is a peace settlement between Cabaas Muuse (Surre) and Reer Idle (Habar Jeclo) in Sanaag.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91cOIRchcv8

When the Habar Magadle and Habar Habusheed confederations were smaller, the clan borders were not as clear cut as they are today. This is evinced by the Ciise oral History of assimilating Habar Toljeclo individuals in the past when they would go to war with a more unified Isaaq clan. More recently, it was not uncommon for the sections of the Garxajis to fight in unison with the Habar Awal against the Ciise despite their mutual animosity.


As has been noticed, the Habr Gerhajis have a perpetual blood feud with the Habr Awal, and, even at Aden, they have fought out their quarrels with clubs and stones. Yet as cousins they willingly unite against a common enemy, the Eesa for instance, and become the best of friends.

Regarding the Habar Garxajis. The female referenced in Habar Garxajis is traced to Mandalug Dir (Samaron's ancestor) hence why the clan was historically called Habar Garxajis as 'Habar' is only used to signify a 'Bah'. I am aware that the Arap were in alliance with the Cidagalle and Habar Yonis in the Habar Garxajis confederacy of the 19th century, however, I was referring to the matriarch of the clan name Habar Garxajis, not the latter day confederation itself. Moreover, I am also aware of the incompatibility of the 'Habar' prefix to Garhajis when the 'Habar Magaadle' is also referenced as a maternal ancestor. The reasoning behind this contradiction is beyond me.

You are right, there is no written evidence pointing to an ancient Dir clan. However, there is a consensus among Somalis that it is an old Somali stock. Even non-Somalis who do not possess a bias towards one clan or the other such as I. M. Lewis have picked up on this during their field research.

44752

drobbah
05-22-2021, 01:08 AM
@Eli The Tol Jeclo mentioned in your quote about the Isaaq captives among the Cisse is actually Tol Jeclo which is a seperate clan from the Habar Jeclo and other Habar Xabusheed that live in the East.The TJ live in Gabiley/Ethiopia exclusively among us HA Jibriil Abokor who were also constantly at war on the coast with the Cisse clan (who were feared warriors I might add).

My great grandmother was also Tol Jeclo (my maternal haplogroup) from the region.There's no direct evidence there was very different borders between Isaaq & Dir in the last couple centuries except recently where the once landlocked Samarone have now reached the coast as many Cisse left their homeland for the French procterate.These two clans didn't really have the most rosy relationship either despite both being Dir

44753

eli
05-22-2021, 01:10 AM
I've heard that alternate telling but the story is usually Dir as far as I know. And I did notice that about some of the tombs. They look pretty recent. And I agree with you that I have never heard of Dirs claiming they come from Sanaag though someone from any of their subclans can enlighten or correct us here.

The History of Samaron, Ciise and Gurgura point towards an origin in Sanaag. According to the History I know, the Gurgura were the first to venture West followed by the Ciise and Samaron. To this day, you have some small Dir lineages left in Sanaag such as the Magaadle.

As for tombs, yes, the supposed ancestors of Samaron and Ciise are buried there.

44754

44755

Whether there is any truth to the tombs of all the clans in Sanaag? That is up for debate in my opinion. Every Tom. Dick and Harry has taken up the fashion of calling their supposed ancestor a 'Sheikh' when there is no evidence of them having been Islamic scholars or being of Arab origin etc.

eli
05-22-2021, 01:20 AM
@Eli The Tol Jeclo mentioned in your quote about the Isaaq captives among the Cisse is actually Tol Jeclo which is a seperate clan from the Habar Jeclo and other Habar Xabusheed that live in the East.The TJ live in Gabiley/Ethiopia exclusively among us HA Jibriil Abokor who were also constantly at war on the coast with the Cisse clan (who were feared warriors I might add).

My great grandmother was also Tol Jeclo (my maternal haplogroup) from the region.There's no direct evidence there was very different borders between Isaaq & Dir in the last couple centuries except recently where the once landlocked Samarone have now reached the coast as many Cisse left their homeland for the French procterate.These two clans didn't really have the most rosy relationship either despite both being Dir

44753

I know it is Toljeclo. However, what you are forgetting is that the Ciise are referring to a period in History when their clan was young, and they were at war with Isaaqs. As you know, the Toljeclo were the traditional Sultans of the Isaaq in the past. When they were called Habar Toljeclo, they would not have come under the wing of Habar Awal and would have been a powerful independent clan.

Did I claim that there has been a change to the border in the past few centuries? I am referring to the period of time when all these clans were small in number. At one point in History, you operated as Habar Magaadle. Before that, you would not have had the same settlement patterns you have today. Reer Samatar, for example, are Reer Hawd today. In centuries past, they would have been living closer to the majority of their Xussein Abokor kin.

drobbah
05-22-2021, 01:34 AM
Agreed!Let's keep the thread on topic from now on walaal

Awale
05-22-2021, 01:41 AM
The History of Samaron, Ciise and Gurgura point towards an origin in Sanaag. According to the History I know, the Gurgura were the first to venture West followed by the Ciise and Samaron. To this day, you have some small Dir lineages left in Sanaag such as the Magaadle.

May I ask what is the time frame you are proposing for all of this? The Gurgura were already living near Harar by the looks of it in the Futuh al-Habasha during the 1500s. Then there are accounts like Ibn Battuta and al-Umari during the 1300s where the inhabitants of Zeila are described as dark-skinned herders of camels and sheep ("Barbara") in the former case and people who use what looks like the Somali calendar in the latter case:


Al-Umari of Cairo states that in the land of Zayla’ (Awdal) “they cultivate two times annually by seasonal rains … The rainfall for the winter is called ‘Bil’ and rainfall for the ‘summer’ is called ‘Karam’ in the language of the people of Zayla

Then there's the fact that Afar territory seems not associated with Zeila in the Futuh and Afar influence on Somali is as an adstrate, not a substrate and of course there's not really much genetic proof of assimilated Afars so the people mentioned as nomadic in their roots by Batuta were most likely Somalis. All of this doesn't prove there were Dirs in particular in the region during the 1300s but it's food for thought.

eli
05-22-2021, 02:13 AM
May I ask what is the time frame you are proposing for all of this? The Gurgura were already living near Harar by the looks of it in the Futuh al-Habasha during the 1500s. Then there are accounts like Ibn Battuta and al-Umari during the 1300s where the inhabitants of Zeila are described as dark-skinned herders of camels and sheep ("Barbara") in the former case and people who use what looks like the Somali calendar in the latter case:



Then there's the fact that Afar territory seems not associated with Zeila in the Futuh and Afar influence on Somali is as an adstrate, not a substrate and of course there's not really much genetic proof of assimilated Afars so the people mentioned as nomadic in their roots by Batuta were most likely Somalis. All of this doesn't prove there were Dirs in particular in the region during the 1300s but it's food for thought.

We are talking about Somalis bro. Time frames and Somalis do not go together sadly. Particularly, our early History.

It would definitely not be out of the equation for Somalis to have bordered Zeila by the 14th century as we would have been settled in present day North-Western Somalia by that time. I base the previous statement on the purported earlier date in which the Aw Barkhadle Sufi tradition would have been established among Somalis. His shrine is not far from Hargeysa.

Nonetheless, as for whether Somalis had expanded beyond Zeila at that time, and at the expense of the Afar, is a question I cannot begin to answer as I remember reading that there is a shrine in Zeila which the Afar would have held in high regard. Furthermore, the Batuta description would fit the Afar too as they have a similar nomadic lifestyle.

Megatron
05-22-2021, 10:59 AM
@eli

The Libyan examples demonstrates that a shared genetic lineage doesnít necessarily mean that the direct descendants of that lineage (MRCA) lived in the same geographical area and belonged to the same clan grouping.

Habar Toljeílo is another name for Habar Habusheed. As your source points out there are different traditions describing the origin of the 3 follower clans (soo raaí clans). The one I heard is that Wardiq was found as a young boy living in the wilderness and that the ĎIise adopted him because his appearance in their land was interpreted as glad tidings hence ďwar diqĒ and the reason why they chose the descendants of this alleged individual as their Ugas. Itís unlikely that íIise would choose their alleged captives as their traditional clan leaders. With that said, there isnít any evidence pointing out any contact between the Habar Toljeílo and ĎIise in the medieval period.

In the last section of the video you posted, the Somaliland official overseeing the settlement states; ďthe clan of the perpetrator travelled from a very distant placeĒ. That tells us 3 things;

1. These clans do not border each other.
2. It was an isolated incident.
3. Not part of the traditional ďSomaliland clansĒ

The Abas Muse live on the fringes of eastern Sanaag and Bari where they live among Warsangeli and if Iím not mistaken under Warsangeli protection. They are not found in places where Isaaq/Harti settlements overlap such as central Sanaag. Oral history does not really prove anything, especially when it comes to alleged migration patterns. Thereís an equal chance that Surrey comes from central Somalia and migrated north.


This is the first time I hear that the mother of Habar Garhajis was the daughter of Madulug. Itís only James Dahlís Abtirsi website that makes that connection. The Isaaq legend states that Ismail and Arap (Muhammad) were twins and therefore formed a special bond/alliance within the Habar Magaadle hence the term Habar Garhajis. If you ask the elders of Arap, Eidagalla and HY they will tell you the same thing.

As I stated earlier, Garhaji or Garhaajiye is part of the Somali Heer system. Itís not an exclusive title. Itís connected to a profession (attorney). If I was a carpenter, in the traditional Somali context I would be a ďTumaalĒ.

In contrast, there are claims (cited by western travelers in pre-colonial/colonial times) that Samarone is the alleged son of Said Gerhajis. I donít think these claims verify a clan relationship between the two groups.

Awale
05-22-2021, 02:32 PM
Some Somali clans by the time of the Futuh were living within the Sultanate of Adal but the vast majority didn't.Some of the clans that lived there are Gerri Koombe (Daarood),Yabarre (Daarood),Habar Maqdi (possibly Samarone),Habar Magaadle (HA,Gx,Arab & Ayuub).Mareexaan lived on the periphery and so did the Harti (people of Maydh).When the Marexaan killed the Adalite messenger he fled to what the chronicler called the land of the Somalis where the Hawiye lived.The incursions of these clans into the territory of the Sultanate Western & Central Somaliland & Hawd was probably when the nomads ultimately became Muslims imo (13th century)

Walaal, as I pointed out in that other thread (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772264&viewfull=1#post772264) this line of thinking seems unfounded. It's based on a reading of Futuh (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YVCALCc5-s6yHx4SyE6WXEZAoajeax8e/view?usp=sharing) I honestly can't understand. The Somali clans mentioned in the Futuh are: Gurgura, Barsuuk, Marehan, Habar Magaadle, Geri Kombe, Yabbare, Bartire, Hawiye and the Harti (along with two unidentifiable clans going by Mazra/Mazzar and Jaran/Jairan). Every single clan mentioned here except the Harti, who are explicitly pointed out to be from a place far to the east (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maydh), have one thing in common and that's that they're all clans known in the following centuries to have lived far to the west and near Harar (https://i.imgur.com/Q43ixFq.png) or had subclans that did. When Richard Burton visits in 1800s he names some of these exact same clans as living in and around Harar.

Areas to the east and north like Awdal and Woqooyi in Somaliland are not really mentioned and even Zeila is mentioned in passing as a source for canon imports. Then virtually everywhere the Futuh takes place like Bale, Shewa, Hadiya, Amhara, Tigray and so forth is blatantly in Ethiopia. The Futuh even mentions at one point that the Imam goes to about the border between Muslim and Christian lands then doubles back into the "Country of the Somalis" mentioned. Does that sound far to the east and on the periphery of Muslim lands? And Somalis are mentioned to control a Muslim province by the name of Jalbi between their country where the Imam's forces gather provisions in a town called Kidad and Bale where he ends up campaigning for a time. It is very clear in the Futuh that most everything is happening in what is now Ethiopia and not in Somaliland and that the Somali clans mentioned are mostly the same ones who've lived far to the west and near Harar in the last several centuries following the Futuh. I do not know where you got this impression that they are in the periphery and far to the east in a place like Sanaag. The only clan out of place are the Harti (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=772991&viewfull=1#post772991) and the author makes a point of telling us they are from Maydh and were probably there as outsiders much like the Mahra and other such groups. Muslims looking to participate in a Jihad and get some plunder while they're at it.

Then there are of course all the other problems I mentioned here (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23810-Asia-in-the-Horn-The-Indian-Ocean-trade-in-Somaliland&p=771995#post771995) with this idea that there was some massive assimilated population in areas like Awdal, Woqooyi and Togdheer like a lack of any real autosomal or uniparental evidence, no proof in linguistics (no substratum), the region actually still being mostly marginal land that would be dominated mainly by pastoral nomads and not sedentary farmers and so on and so forth. I don't know if you still hold this position after that thread but just wanted to point this out here as well.

eli
05-22-2021, 08:29 PM
@eli

The Libyan examples demonstrates that a shared genetic lineage doesn’t necessarily mean that the direct descendants of that lineage (MRCA) lived in the same geographical area and belonged to the same clan grouping.

Habar Tolje’lo is another name for Habar Habusheed. As your source points out there are different traditions describing the origin of the 3 follower clans (soo raa’ clans). The one I heard is that Wardiq was found as a young boy living in the wilderness and that the ‘Iise adopted him because his appearance in their land was interpreted as glad tidings hence “war diq” and the reason why they chose the descendants of this alleged individual as their Ugas. It’s unlikely that ’Iise would choose their alleged captives as their traditional clan leaders. With that said, there isn’t any evidence pointing out any contact between the Habar Tolje’lo and ‘Iise in the medieval period.

In the last section of the video you posted, the Somaliland official overseeing the settlement states; “the clan of the perpetrator travelled from a very distant place”. That tells us 3 things;

1. These clans do not border each other.
2. It was an isolated incident.
3. Not part of the traditional “Somaliland clans”

The Abas Muse live on the fringes of eastern Sanaag and Bari where they live among Warsangeli and if I’m not mistaken under Warsangeli protection. They are not found in places where Isaaq/Harti settlements overlap such as central Sanaag. Oral history does not really prove anything, especially when it comes to alleged migration patterns. There’s an equal chance that Surrey comes from central Somalia and migrated north.


This is the first time I hear that the mother of Habar Garhajis was the daughter of Madulug. It’s only James Dahl’s Abtirsi website that makes that connection. The Isaaq legend states that Ismail and Arap (Muhammad) were twins and therefore formed a special bond/alliance within the Habar Magaadle hence the term Habar Garhajis. If you ask the elders of Arap, Eidagalla and HY they will tell you the same thing.

As I stated earlier, Garhaji or Garhaajiye is part of the Somali Heer system. It’s not an exclusive title. It’s connected to a profession (attorney). If I was a carpenter, in the traditional Somali context I would be a “Tumaal”.

In contrast, there are claims (cited by western travelers in pre-colonial/colonial times) that Samarone is the alleged son of Said Gerhajis. I don’t think these claims verify a clan relationship between the two groups.

No, it is a false analogy. The reason is simple, we do not know the History of the Libyan sample; his migration History and who he could possibly be related to. We have the oral History of the Somali clans in question. Their oral Histories point to a common point of origin, North-Eastern Somalia in the case of the Samaron, Ciise and Isaaq. Your analogy is a false equivalence.

Yes, there are different traditions regarding the Wardiq, however, the fact that one tradition points towards Habar Toljeclo cannot be denied. Why would they reference Habar Toljeclo when they could easily have claimed that their captives were the Habar Awal who they currently border? Moreover, in the same source, their oral History of having roots areas further East would indicate that in the Ciise nascent stage, their borders would not be what they are today. During their early History, and that of the Isaaq, the divisions we see today would not have been in existence. It is only as sub subclans become bigger that they begin to demarcate separate clan territories. Considering the clan based nature of our society and the T rich Northern clans I referenced, it can be argued that the recent founder effect from which they descend from would have had its beginnings in the same family unit.

I gave the Cabaas Muuse example to further illustrate this point. I never stated that they border the Habar Jeclo. They do not live in Bari at all, their villages are in between Badhan and Las Qoorey. They were traditionally allied with the Warsangeli but are a separate clan who have their own diya paying mechanism as demonstrated by the fact that they were paying compensation to the clan of the man killed. Our clan History points towards a North-Eastern origin for our lineage. Today, we live predominately in Central Somalia, South Somalia and K5. Nonetheless, our oral History and that of Daarood clans in North-Eastern Somalia testify to our ancestral land in North-eastern Somalia. This again can be used to argue that members of my subclan who share the same T lineage, and that of my Northern blood cousins, have their roots in the roughly same geographic area.

As you very well know, Habar signifies a 'Bah' who descend from a common matriarch so there is a contradiction between them being Habar Magaadle and Habar Garxajis simultaneously. Like I said, the reasoning behind the Garxajis being historically identified with Habar Garxajis is beyond me.

As for Samaron Sicid being descendants of Sicid Garxajis, it is no different than other examples such as the Warsangeli Harti Abgaal being identified with Warsangeli Harti. No Samaron acknowledges such a connection.


Let us not derail the thread further, and agree to disagree.

Back to E-V32. .

I have been more than fair in explaining my ideas to you. Why do you insist on waiting until your test results come out to share your E-V32 theory with us? This forum is about having a reasoned discussion and it is not a fair exchange for me to address questions you pose to me when you are not willing to do the same. What is your Isaaq E-V32 theory please?

Megatron
05-22-2021, 09:29 PM
@eli

Oral history is highly problematic because itís borderline pseudo history. Just to give you an example, why would ĎIise coronate their alleged Habar Toljeílo captives? It makes no sense.

With that said, there isnít any evidence supporting some of the ideas you shared including Habar Garhajis denoting descent from the alleged daughter of Madulug Dir and some of the alleged migration patterns. The aforementioned idea is also contradictory to what HY, Eidagalla and Arap elders believe.

My theory about Isaaq E-V32 is not essential to this thread, my results are.. since it would contribute to the puzzle and hopefully get us a step closer to understanding the story of Somali E-V32. When I get my results I may disclose the theory.

I agree, letís not derail the thread.

eli
05-22-2021, 11:15 PM
@eli

Oral history is highly problematic because it’s borderline pseudo history. Just to give you an example, why would ‘Iise coronate their alleged Habar Tolje’lo captives? It makes no sense.

With that said, there isn’t any evidence supporting some of the ideas you shared including Habar Garhajis denoting descent from the alleged daughter of Madulug Dir and some of the alleged migration patterns. The aforementioned idea is also contradictory to what HY, Eidagalla and Arap elders believe.

My theory about Isaaq E-V32 is not essential to this thread, my results are.. since it would contribute to the puzzle and hopefully get us a step closer to understanding the story of Somali E-V32. When I get my results I may disclose the theory.

I agree, let’s not derail the thread.

Oral History is problematic, no doubt. However, it is the main Historical resource available to us considering the oral nature of our society as there are no ancient historical texts written by Somalis about Somalis as things stand. Moreover, it is fair to say that when the oral History of Somali clans is corroborated by multiple clan sources, there is some sort of Historical foundation to work with. Thus, the oral History of clans such as the Ciise are no less redundant than the oral History of your own clan or my clan about our respective area of origin.

Regarding migration, pastoral Somalis would historically be in conflict with each other over water wells, grazing land etc., and it was also natural for segmentary lineages of a clan family unit to come to blows with an expansion in population. Hence, it is abundantly clear that Somali clan boundaries have never been Historically static. The clan borders we see today are not the same borders that existed 800 years ago. The migration History of several clans such as Marehan, Ogaden, Biimaal, Surre, Garre, Degoodi, Gaaljecel, Gurre, Gugundhabe Hawiyes, Karanle Hawiyes etc. demonstrates this. Even the migration patterns of the Isaaq clan is a clear example of this. The coastal Habar Yonis do not border the more Southern Habar Yonis anymore as the the Habar Jeclo have created a buffer between them after expanding into Dhulbahante territory. Prior to that, you were mainly concentrated in areas adjacent to the coast.

If your theory is not essential to thread why even share it after your results come out?

Megatron
05-22-2021, 11:35 PM
@eli

These alleged migrations may not haven taken place at all. Thereís an equal chance that Surrey, Gaaljeíel, Garreh etc originate further south. One has to keep an open mind and not present ideas as fact.

I may share my theory if itís beneficial to the thread but that can only be decided when I get my results.

eli
05-22-2021, 11:46 PM
@Megatron

I never stated all the above clans lived in the North. All I was making you aware of is that these clans did not always live where they are presently found.

Surre History is in the North and can be corroborated by the Daarood we neighbour in Puntland and Sanaag, and our remnant subclans that still inhabit North-Eastern Somalia. Our migration History is North to South, and the fact that Surres samples on YFull share an ancestry with their Northern cousins is an indicator of where some of their ancestral roots lie.

Again, why would it beneficial then and not now? What is there to shy away from now? It is only a theory after all!

Megatron
05-23-2021, 12:20 AM
@eli

I’m not opposed to the idea of migration but long distances such as north-south without any clear evidence, only oral history, is quite problematic.

If I’m not mistaken the Surrey samples on Yfull belong to an older subclade and they’re both from central Somalia in contrast to the Isaaq/Samarone. There’s a possibility that the ancestor of Isaaq/Samarone T migrated from central Somalia or from another territory in the Somali Peninsula to present day Somaliland.

If my theory is beneficial or not can only be decided when I get my results.

eli
05-23-2021, 01:01 AM
@eli

I’m not opposed to the idea of migration but long distances such as north-south without any clear evidence, only oral history, is quite problematic.

If I’m not mistaken the Surrey samples on Yfull belong to an older subclade and they’re both from central Somalia in contrast to the Isaaq/Samarone. There’s a possibility that the ancestor of Isaaq/Samarone migrated from central Somalia or from another territory in the Somali Peninsula to present day Somaliland.

If it’s beneficial or not can only be decided when I get my results.

I never stated that all the above clans migrated North to South, you jumped the gun. I was merely demonstrating how clan borders are not static.

For example, the Marehan were closer to Harar before the Futuh wars and only a few of them remain there today. The majority settled in Central Somalia and gradually migrated to Gedo mostly.

The Karanle Hawiye are mainly in the Harar area but one of their descendant subclans lives in Galgadud today; the Murusade.

The Degoodi lived in Central K5 before Ogaden raids caused them to find less contested grazing land in Northen Kenyan/Southern K5.

A sub sub subclan of the Gugundhabe Hawiye subclan called Murulle now lived next to the Quranyow Garre in Mandheera District after migrating from an area in South-Central Somalia/Central K5.

I am not going to describe the migration History of every clan mentioned but you get the point I was trying to make.

As for the Surre YFull samples, you are jumping the gun again. The Mudug sample belongs to a clan that inhabit Mudug but originate from the North. They are a sibling clan of Cabaas Muuse called Samatar Muuse who migrated South. The Daarood we neighbour bear witness to our indigenous Northern roots and there is no History of us migrating from Central Somalia to Northern Somalia. You will find the Muuse lineage us as far North as Bandar Beyla! Listen to the following extract by a Daarood elder (43.40 mins onwards) during the crowning of an Cabaas Muuse Ugaas. He recounts the relationship between my Muuse lineage and his lineage. The maternal ancestor of Cabaas Muuse is from his subclan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7abk0h0pkh4

The Surre sample from Hiiraan is called Reer Aw Herar Qubeys. Qubeys also have a shared History of having an origin in Northern Somalia but most of their constituent subclans are Fiqi priestly clans that became dispersed throughout South-Central Somalia and K5. Thus, there is no evidence to suggest my T lineage originates from Mudug as it is not our traditional ancestral land, Northern Somalia is. I assume the same is for my distant blood kin among the Isaaq, Ciise and Samaron who also consider Northern Somalia their traditional ancestral land.

As for your theory, just don't hold it back if results do not go your way.

Megatron
05-23-2021, 01:43 AM
@eli

The Marehan is a perfect example because medieval chronicles such as Futuh strengthens their migration history but itís not evident for other Somali clans. In my opinion, oral history and speculation based on oral history doesnít hold any weight but letís agree to disagree.

Letís not derail this thread any further.

eli
05-23-2021, 02:01 AM
@eli

The Marehan is a perfect example because medieval chronicles such as Futuh strengthens their migration history but itís not evident for other Somali clans. In my opinion, oral history and speculation based on oral history doesnít hold any weight but letís agree to disagree.

Letís not derail this thread any further.

Sadly, Oral History is what our History is mainly all about. Are we just going to rely on Futuh Al Habasha, Antione Abad, Richard Burton etc. to fill in the blanks? Without it, we lose a window into our past.

In my opinion, if oral History can corroborated by diverse sources then a grain of truth can be sieved from it.

To each his own nonetheless.

Mirix
05-24-2021, 10:30 PM
Sanaag traditions is just a continuation and even a islamic reappropiation of pagan Waaq spiritual traditions. Thats why they bury clan founders in the same general area because of its spiritual associations. You shouldn't take it as a fact or evidence of recent migration or dispersal from that area or something. Sada Mire answered this in her book btw

Somalis have been seperated across out across a wide landscape for many thousands of years and you can see this in how there is dialect differences from west to north to South.

All the clans with the exception of Merehan and some Ogaden sub-clans haven't really done any migrations or movements and live as a clan group in the same general areas they have always lived for centuries since their recording in Futuh and other sources. The rest are just migrations of clergy men or traders and not whole clans migrating.

eli
05-24-2021, 10:56 PM
Sanaag traditions is just a continuation and even a islamic reappropiation of pagan Waaq spiritual traditions. Thats why they bury clan founders in the same general area because of its spiritual associations. You shouldn't take it as a fact or evidence of recent migration or dispersal from that area or something. Sada Mire answered this in her book btw

Somalis have been seperated across out across a wide landscape for many thousands of years and you can see this in how there is dialect differences from west to north to South.

All the clans with the exception of Merehan and some Ogaden sub-clans haven't really done any migrations or movements and live as a clan group in the same general areas they have always lived for centuries since their recording in Futuh and other sources. The rest are just migrations of clergy men or traders and not whole clans migrating.

The Sanaag traditions might not be based on fact, however, they do point to a belief in a common ancestral point of origin when the population of pastoral Somali clans was not as large as it was today. Whether it was Sanaag or not is irrelevant, what is pertinent to the point I was making is that where clans live today is not necessarily where the ancestors sprang from according to their own Histories. Dismiss it if you wish but you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that all the clans are lying or that the clan borders we see today have been the same since the formative era of our ethnic group.

As for your statement regarding current Somali clan settlements, you are generalising for all Somali clans based on research done in Northern Somalia by Sada Mire and your won conclusions based on Futuh Al Habash.

For instance, the Ajuuran do not live today where they did 500 years ago after a joint uprising by multiple clans against them. This occurrence is not recorded in Futuh Al Habash or any other contemporary text when the dispersal occurred. Today, many are found are found in Southern K5 and NFD.

As you are so fond of referencing the Futuh like an Evangelist would quote the Bible, in the Futuh, it is mentioned that the Harti came from Mait, where do they live today? Where were the Habar Magaadle then? In areas possibly closer to Harar? Considering how the Habar Yonis claim to descend from an Aba Yonis Geri Kombe matriarch ancestor, is it possible that the Habar Magaadle actually lived in areas closer to Harar before migrating North after the Futuh wars? I am just hypothesising but you get my point regarding your statement that Somali clans always lived in the same locality.

Mirix
05-24-2021, 11:54 PM
The Sanaag traditions might not be based on fact, however, they do point to a belief in a common ancestral point of origin when the population of pastoral Somali clans was not as large as it was today. Whether it was Sanaag or not is irrelevant, what is pertinent to the point I was making is that where clans live today is not necessarily where the ancestors sprang from according to their own Histories. Dismiss it if you wish but you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that all the clans are lying or that the clan borders we see today have been the same since the formative era of our ethnic group.

As for your statement regarding current Somali clan settlements, you are generalising for all Somali clans based on research done in Northern Somalia by Sada Mire and your won conclusions based on Futuh Al Habash.

For instance, the Ajuuran do not live today where they did 500 years ago after a joint uprising by multiple clans against them. This occurrence is not recorded in Futuh Al Habash or any other contemporary text when the dispersal occurred. Today, many are found are found in Southern K5 and NFD.

As you are so fond of referencing the Futuh like an Evangelist would quote the Bible, in the Futuh, it is mentioned that the Harti came from Mait, where do they live today? Where were the Habar Magaadle then? In areas possibly closer to Harar? Considering how the Habar Yonis claim to descend from an Aba Yonis Geri Kombe matriarch ancestor, is it possible that the Habar Magaadle actually lived in areas closer to Harar before migrating North after the Futuh wars? I am just hypothesising but you get my point regarding your statement that Somali clans always lived in the same locality.

Sanaag traditions point to a common pagan belief rooted in a pagan religious culture in Somalis, that was later islamized. They don't point to any dispersal or recent migration at all.


Ajuuran is an exceptional case, they were defeated outsted as rulers by a coalition of Somali clans and as a consquence scattered. Hawiye and Raxanweyn clans however live generally where they have always lived. Even Hawiye clans they were recorded at Merka in the 12th century and still live there.

Somalis clans intermarry across maternal lines to build alliances. Thats why you have Bahs (Mother of) etc in different clans. They also share grazing land with eachother Sanaag is generally inhabited by Harti and Isaaq clans as side by side neighbors.

eli
05-25-2021, 01:09 AM
Sanaag traditions point to a common pagan belief rooted in a pagan religious culture in Somalis, that was later islamized. They don't point to any dispersal or recent migration at all.


Ajuuran is an exceptional case, they were defeated outsted as rulers by a coalition of Somali clans and as a consquence scattered. Hawiye and Raxanweyn clans however live generally where they have always lived. Even Hawiye clans they were recorded at Merka in the 12th century and still live there.

Somalis clans intermarry across maternal lines to build alliances. Thats why you have Bahs (Mother of) etc in different clans. They also share grazing land with eachother Sanaag is generally inhabited by Harti and Isaaq clans as side by side neighbors.


I do not want to be accused of derailing this thread so let us open another thread in the History section after this reply if you have anything to add.

Firstly, the example I presented about Sanaag being the ancestral land of the clans in question was to demonstrate that their own traditions indicate they did not always live in the same locality. I never stated that their traditional oral History was necessarily true in regards to all of them descending from ancestors buried in Sanaag. Whether Sanaag, and Northern Somalia in general, has a sacred ancestral History for Dir and Daarood clans is irrelevant to the discussion I was having. That is another debate altogether. In a reply to Awale, I even cast doubt, personally speaking, about the claimed burial grounds of these so called clan ancestors as I believe these are clan myths so you are barking up the wrong tree. My point about some of them having dispersed from the same geographic area is primarily based on blood ties which can be scientifically ascertained.

Secondly, you can dispute the Oral History of clans, however, you cannot be selective about how true one Oral History is over another as exemplified by how you try to religiously link the Harla with some Somalis by relying on an oral History of theirs. A similar argument can be made in regard to your Karanle Abtirsi reference.

Thirdly, you are generalising about entire clans based on one or two references again. The Hadiya reference which you and many others interpret as Hawiye does not indicate that all Hawiye always lived in Deep South Somalia in the 12th century because the Futuh itself highlights how some Hawiye were probably not that distant from Harar as exemplified by how the Marehan escaped the wrath of Ibn Ghazi by fleeing to Hawiye territory. Is this the same Hawiye territory inhabited by the Karanles or Gugundhabes in K5? If so, it shows how Hawiye have not generally always lived where they do today. Moreover, the Oral History of Hirab Hawiye and how they gradually came to expel the Ajuran from the environs of Mogadishu also demonstrates this. They gradually migrated from areas further North of the Shabelle River until the Darandolle section became immediate neighbours of the Ajuran. The entire History of how Ajuran hegemony in the South was defeated by a coalition of clans is again based on Oral History as there is no reference of them or any other South-Central Somali clan in any contemporary text so is it ignorant to correlate the History of several clans with that of the few who are listed in Futuh Al Habash.

As for the Habar Yonis matriarch and Harti examples I gave. The only clan which is clearly as referenced as coming from Mait are the Harti. The Harti do not inhabit Mait at all today so this again demonstrates how clans constantly migrate. Moreover, if the 'Habar' referenced in Futuh is indeed the Habar Magaadle, it is noteworthy that they are referenced as one of the first clans to come to the Jihad Call, and the absence of any reference to Mait says a lot. Thus, my maternal reference is also relevant because Somalis generally married from neighbouring clans. Habar Yonis, if their oral History is to be believed, are the son of Sicid Garxajis and a Aba Yonis Geri Kombe mother. It could be therefore argued that this could indicate that they and the Geri once neighboured each other when the Habar Magaadle clan was in its infancy. Today, they do not directly neighbour each other. This hypothesis can obviously be dismissed as it is based on clan myths which can be rejected for lacking absolute scientific genetic evidence. We can easily test for distant paternal relations, but sadly, we cannot do the same for maternal relations.

Lastly, you were negligent when you made your earlier statement about clans always living in the same locality they have always as illustrated by how you changed your tune when I presented you with the Ajuran example. FYI, the Garre and Degodi have also not always lived where they are found today. Conflict brought them there. Nonetheless, this is again, like the Ajuran, is also not extensively referenced in any contemporary text but obtained from the oral History of Somali clans.

Mirix
05-25-2021, 02:23 AM
It's a fair generalization to make to state what is generally true. The vast majority of Somali groups live generally in the same areas they have always lived, with minimal movements. The written sources show high degree of population stability.



According to H. S. Lewis, early written sources suggest a picture that is entirely compatible with population stability and the
hypothesis that the Somali were the main inhabitants of the Horn. The reference in Al-Idrisi to the Hadiye and in Ibn Sa'id to the Hawiye, on both occasions associated with the Benadir port of Merca, where the Hawiya live today, suggests that they have been in this area for at least 700 years.8 The references slightly later in the Futuh al-Habasha to Somali groups in north-western Somaliland indicates that the population in this area has also remained substantially unchanged since the sixteenth century, when the work was written

A third relatively early document containing recognizable references to Somali groups is an Arabic chronicle detailing the wars between the Muslims of Adal and the Christians of Ethiopia.6 The Somali groups mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha are generally ones which are still found in north-west Somaliland-the area which was once Adal or adjacent to it. These include the Yabarre, Bartirre, Marrehan, Geri, Habr Magadle, and various Dir groups. The evidence of this work, written between I540 and 1550, is, therefore, that the composition of the Somali population of north- west Somaliland has not changed substantially since then.7

There is simply no evidence of Sanaag being a recent locus point for any Somalis. Even if Somalis had an origin point in the Northern Somalia it would have been 5000 years ago , by 3000 years or so earliest Somalis must have spread out to cover a wide landscape. That's what it seems. Because this is the estimated distance between Macro-Somali langauges (Sam Languages) shows. Archeology seems to support this as well.

Simple as that.

eli
05-25-2021, 03:06 AM
It's a fair generalization to make to state what is generally true. The vast majority of Somali groups live generally in the same areas they have always lived, with minimal movements. The written sources show high degree of population stability and that Somalis were the main inhabitants of the horn.

The written sources do not tell the full story as I have demonstrated with the Ajuran, Degodi, Gaaljecel and Hawiye examples. Provide me with one contemporary source written by a non-Somali or a Somali corroborating the History that you just acknowledged regarding the Ajuran? If Hawiye always lived in the same area then how come we have clans living in places as geographically apart as NFD, in the vicinity of Harar, South-Central Somalia? A similar case can be made for the Dir clan. For instance, the Biimaal are not recorded as living in Merca during the 12th century, their oral History, and that of the clans that they neighbour, state that the Biimaal migrated there at a much later period. Which historical text supports the above details?

What is generally true for you is not necessarily the uncontested 'truth' for everyone nor is it generally supported by the History of all Somalis as you have insinuated.


There is simply no evidence of Sanaag being a recent locus point for any Somalis. Even if Somalis had an origin point in the Northern Somalia it would have been 5000 years ago , by 3000 years or so Earliest Somalis must have spread out to cover a wide landscape. That's what it seems. Because this is the estimated distance between Macro-Somali langauges (Sam Languages) shows. Archeology seems to support this as well.

Where did I state that Sanaag is a recent locus point for all Somalis? I only referenced certain clan traditions associated with it. To be blunt, I am not concerned about the ancient History of Somalia as there is no oral or written Historical trail which can give us an idea about the History of this land going back 3000 to 5000 years etc. Furthermore, due to my bias, I am falling back on genetics to decipher my own personal History as I do not even think my paternal ancestors were necessarily in the Horn during that time frame.

Mirix
05-25-2021, 08:07 AM
The written sources do not tell the full story as I have demonstrated with the Ajuran, Degodi, Gaaljecel and Hawiye examples. Provide me with one contemporary source written by a non-Somali or a Somali corroborating the History that you just acknowledged regarding the Ajuran? If Hawiye always lived in the same area then how come we have clans living in places as geographically apart as NFD, in the vicinity of Harar, South-Central Somalia? A similar case can be made for the Dir clan. For instance, the Biimaal are not recorded as living in Merca during the 12th century, their oral History, and that of the clans that they neighbour, state that the Biimaal migrated there at a much later period. Which historical text supports the above details?

The oral traditions and sources down south has also been analyzed as well. Dir , Isaaq , Hawiye and Raxanweyn inhabit relatively restricted geographical areas and there is no evidence of their clan families making any major movements in recent centuries at all.


In the south, Cerulli has collected and analysed the traditions of various Hawiye and Rahanwin groups.37 Most of this material relates only to
relatively minor local movements within southern Somalia. These affirm that Tunni, Hawiye, Ajuran and Jiddu Somali have been in the south for many centuries, as the written evidence indicated.

As for their contention that they came from the north-over nine centuries ago-this can be seen as a necessary accompaniment to their myths of descent from Arabian immigrants. People who know enough and care enough to fabricate genealogies tracing their ancestry back to Muhammad's uncle are not likely to claim to have come from southern Ethiopia. Most of the Somali clan families-Dir, Isaq, Hawiye, Rahanwin inhabit relatively restricted areas, and there is no evidence that they have made any recent major movements. The Darod clan-family, on the other hand, has such a wide distribution that a recent expansion is indicated. This Darod movement must be seen as a recent and secondary dispersal, not an indication of the general trend of Somali migration. The Somali oral traditions about their origins are suspect, because of the great time depth involved-at least I,ooo years-and because of theoverriding importance of the claim of Arabian descent. But even taken at face value they do not provide much foundation for the hypothesis of a northern origin



What is generally true for you is not necessarily the uncontested 'truth' for everyone nor is it generally supported by the History of all Somalis as you have insinuated.


What i am saying is that there is no truths to the Sanaag insinuation of origins when a lot of these major clan families have been living in same areas. Somalis are an ethnic group that share a common descent, language etc, one clan cannot originate in one place and others elsewhere in their early history. One sub clan potentially moving to another place where another Somali group lives or making small local movements does not change anything really.


]Where did I state that Sanaag is a recent locus point for all Somalis? I only referenced certain clan traditions associated with it. To be blunt, I am not concerned about the ancient History of Somalia as there is no oral or written Historical trail which can give us an idea about the History of this land going back 3000 to 5000 years etc. Furthermore, due to my bias, I am falling back on genetics to decipher my own personal History as I do not even think my paternal ancestors were necessarily in the Horn during that time frame.

There is linguistic and archeological data that can tell us about Somalis and as well as genetic data in the absence of historcal sources. Archeaological evidence tells us that there has been a pastoral habitat and a unique cairn building culture across. As early as 7000 years.

Genetic evidence tells us that the Y chromosome marker that characterizes Somalis , shows us that Somalis as a member of Eastern Cushitic , had been in their present homeland for about the last 4500-5000 years or so within this seperate gene marker. .

Not only that linguitic evidence even caste light on the ancient occupatancy of Somalis in the horn either via reconstructions or loan-language comparisons. Raxanweyn and Tunni clans based on their language/dialects have been in their present homeland for many thousands of years and the sam with Northern-Coastal Somalis.

eli
05-25-2021, 09:41 AM
The oral traditions and sources down south has also been analyzed as well. Dir , Isaaq , Hawiye and Raxanweyn inhabit relatively restricted geographical areas and there is no evidence of their clan families making any major movements in recent centuries at all.

I did not ask you to provide me with a source written in the past century or so. I asked you, rhetorically, to present evidence which is contemporaneous to distant Historical events that occurred in Southern Somalia such as the Ajuran dispersal. You haven't presented anything original.


Lool. What i am saying is that there is no truths to the Sanaag insinuation of origins when a lot of these major clan families have been living in same areas. Somalis are an ethnic group that share a common descent, language etc, one clan cannot originate in one place and others elsewhere in their early history. One sub clan potentially moving to another place where another Somali group lives or making small local movements does not change anything really.

Did I not previously state that the Sanaag traditions I referenced are the oral History of the clans in question? Did I not state that this does not make them necessarily factual? Did I not also emphasise that I used them to highlight how clans did not view themselves as wedded to the land they currently inhabit? I asked you questions which displayed your inconsistent use of Historical sources, be they Primary Written Texts or Oral references. You have not answered them. How could a clan like Hawiye who live in multiple locations support your initial assertion that clan boundaries have remained static etc. throughout Somali History? How come the Biimaal are not listed as living in Merca in the 12th century if clan boundaries have historically been static? etc.




There is linguistic and archeological data that can tell us about Somalis and as well as genetic data in the absence of historcal sources. Archeaological evidence tells us that there has been a pastoral habitat and a unique cairn building culture across. As early as 7000 years.

Genetic evidence tells us that the Y chromosome marker that characterizes Somalis , shows us that Somalis as a member of Eastern Cushitic , had been in their present homeland for about the last 4500-5000 years or so within this seperate gene marker. .

Not only that linguitic evidence even caste light on the ancient occupatancy of Somalis in the horn either via reconstructions or loan-language comparisons. Raxanweyn and Tunni clans based on their language/dialects have been in their present homeland for many thousands of years and the sam with Northern-Coastal Somalis.

Were my ancestors in Africa 7000ybp? There is a much higher chance that my paternal ancestors were somewhere near the Levant 7000ybp. I ain't E-V32. Let us not ruin Awale's thread any further. I am out. Patience is a bloody virtue with some folk!

Mirix
05-25-2021, 10:07 AM
Watch the accussatory language. Lets keep this civil. Take the oral & written sources together and it will give you the same picture.

Hawiye still live in the general areas which they have always been for several centuries in south-central especially since their recording and more. A sub clan moving here or there or a few migrant individuals founding a hawiye sub elsewhere, doesn't change their overral distributions in their locus. Those in Harar have been pretty much living there since their recording in Futah. There is no evidence that the whole group living there moved elsewhere.

Same with Dir. The whole clan family hasn't moved elsewhere they are concentrated more in one particular geographical restricted area with Bimaal being an outlier.

I am not so much talking exactly about E-V32 as i am talking about the High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males (https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390). This is what characterizes bulk of the majority of Somalis and this marker has it's origins in Somalis in our present day homeland.


In Somalis, the TMRCA was estimated to be 4000–5000 years for the haplogroup E3b1 cluster γ and 2100–2200 years for the haplogroup K2 assuming a generation time of 25 years


A lot was written but very little was said. Not interest in arguing for the sake of arguing, the thread has already been derailed by a certain someone arguing with lengthy inchorent essays with different people across several pages.

NetNomad
05-29-2021, 02:40 PM
I am not so much talking exactly about E-V32 as i am talking about the High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males (https://www.nature.com/articles/5201390). This is what characterizes bulk of the majority of Somalis and this marker has it's origins in Somalis in our present day homeland.

It was taken from Denmark in the early 2000s. Most Somalis there at that time were mostly Darod and Hawiye. It also looks like Benadiri lineages are overrepresented.

Frequency of T in Somalis can vary widely depending where it is taken. In Dire Dawa it reached like 80%. Some small towns in the Somali province of Ethiopia it also reached 50%.

Mirix
05-29-2021, 06:15 PM
It was taken from Denmark in the early 2000s. Most Somalis there at that time were mostly Darod and Hawiye. It also looks like Benadiri lineages are overrepresented.

Frequency of T in Somalis can vary widely depending where it is taken. In Dire Dawa it reached like 80%. Some small towns in the Somali province of Ethiopia it also reached 50%.

The recent genome wide analysis kindly answers this: Genome-wide analyses disclose the distinctive HLA architecture and the pharmacogenetic landscape of the Somali population (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62645-0)


However, recent evidences based on Y-STR haplotypes studied on Somalis from diverse geographic locations and clans suggest that ethnic Somalis are largely homogenous17, supporting the representativeness of our samples for the larger Somali population.

The high T in some Ogaden and Dir groups is most likely due to founder effect. I noted this particular Y cluster because it originated in the Somali population in the Horn Of Africa, then introduced elsewhere and is the most widely distributed among Somalis. The Times Most Recent Ancestor for this is 4000-5000 years and acts as evidence for the ancient occupancy of Somalis an ethnic group in the Horn.

Mnemonics
05-29-2021, 06:44 PM
The recent genome wide analysis kindly answers this: Genome-wide analyses disclose the distinctive HLA architecture and the pharmacogenetic landscape of the Somali population (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-62645-0)



The high T in some Ogaden and Dir groups is most likely due to founder effect. I noted this particular Y cluster because it originated in the Somali population in the Horn Of Africa, then introduced elsewhere and is the most widely distributed among Somalis. The Times Most Recent Ancestor for this is 4000-5000 years and acts as evidence for the ancient occupancy of Somalis an ethnic group in the Horn.

Those Somalis are entirely from Bosaso in Puntland so they may not be entirely representative. I turned those samples into 23andme files but unfortunately they have pretty poor overlap with the 1240K snp set.

Mirix
05-29-2021, 07:01 PM
Those Somalis are entirely from Bosaso in Puntland so they may not be entirely representative. I turned those samples into 23andme files but unfortunately they have pretty poor overlap with the 1240K snp set.

Look at what i qouted. They cited that that studies on Y-STR haplotypes studied on Somalis from diverse geographic locations and clans suggest that ethnic Somalis are largely homogenous , supporting the representativeness of our samples for the larger Somali population.

As well as:

In addition, frequencies of ABO and Rh blood groups estimated in this study are consistent with those found in an earlier study performed in 1987 by the Somali Red Crescent Society and the Finnish Red Cross Blood Transfusion Service who analyzed 1,026 blood samples of Somalis from the entire country26. Although ABO/Rh systems tend to show similar distributions for all neighboring populations, our genotypic blood group estimation is remarkably very close to the previously reported Somali phenotypic blood group data, again supporting a representative Somali population in our cohort.

I don't know what's been argued about, because i was saying that particular Y cluster shows that ethnic Somali ancestors were in their present homeland 4500-5000 years ago. That marker is significant because it orignates within the Somali population in the Horn. T however isn't

And yes Somali are largely homogenous .

NetNomad
06-01-2021, 09:27 AM
Found another E-M293 Somali on 23andMe (new). His clan is Gaaljecel. The other one was Degoodia. These two clans both descend from Saransor (abtiris).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardhere

Maybe there is something to this..

Mirix
06-11-2021, 02:59 PM
Does the South have Madhibaan,Tumaal and Yibir? I always wondered who were the blacksmiths of the south

Artisan bondsmen groups exist spread out amongst almost every Somali clan family and widely scattered.. Madhibaan are the most numerous and widely distributed among them, you can find them in Ethiopia, South Somalia, Somaliland, Djibouti and NorthernEastern Kenya etc and they do not constitute a single clan or related to eachother, but come from different clan groups usually from the clan families and lineages they attach themselves to.

Yibir exist only scattered across Somaliland i believe and they have been steadily decreasing in number though. The Tumaal exist both in Somaliland and most numerous among easterners Like Dhulbahante and Majerteen they claim Darood lineage. Tumaals found big inclusion in the Hobyo sultanate and was hired into important positions.

In the south in Merka a section of Bimaal that are artisans who live on the coast called the Fashaale/Kafaari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasahaale) they are craftsmen and blacksmiths and then there are ones that are Abgaal/Hiraab called Juunji (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juunji) they are traditionally blacksmiths and shoemakers. Some also prepare hides and skins. They also work as porters , masons and carpenters in Merka and Mogadishu coast.

In Barawa most of the coastal Tunni's are artisans, weavers (https://books.google.cd/books?id=DPwOsOcNy5YC&pg=PA219&dq=tunni+clan+craftsmen&hl=no&sa=X#v=onepage&q=tunni%20clan%20craftsmen&f=false) and craftsmen. They are also builders.

There probably exist other ones that i am not aware of. But i suspect among the Raxanweyn it's less relegated to bondsmen because of their different subsistence level. Much like how it is in the fertile Harar uplands among Hawiye and a few other clans which Richard Burton noted.

Because among the Raxanweyn they have a group of reewin artisan and craftmen called Eemaar (https://books.google.cd/books?id=DPwOsOcNy5YC&pg=PA79&dq=reewin+eemar&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIiYXxiZDxAhXMK3cKHX03D7QQ6AEwAHoECAIQA g#v=onepage&q=reewin%20eemar&f=false) who are an association headed by an Aw(Father), ruling the raan(members) and another group called Ooji(Contstruction workers) (https://books.google.cd/books?id=DPwOsOcNy5YC&pg=PA219&dq=tunni+clan+craftsmen&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXhMjq7o_xAhXkAxAIHfGrCLMQ6AEwAXoECAcQA g#v=onepage&q=Hiring&f=false). They are not considered low strata.

farjanomar
06-12-2021, 01:19 AM
Found another E-M293 Somali on 23andMe (new). His clan is Gaaljecel. The other one was Degoodia. These two clans both descend from Saransor (abtiris).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardhere

Maybe there is something to this..

That's interesting. It will be good to know, how many E-M293 Somalis, we each have on our 23andme relatives list.

I have two:

One is either Banadiri/Barawani or mixed. He is only 61% Autosomal Somali, and 39% mostly Eurasian and Ethiopian/Eritrean.
He is from the US.

The second one is from Mandera (kenyan Somali) lives in the Uk.

Typic
06-14-2021, 03:02 PM
That's interesting. It will be good to know, how many E-M293 Somalis, we each have on our 23andme relatives list.

I have two:

One is either Banadiri/Barawani or mixed. He is only 61% Autosomal Somali, and 39% mostly Eurasian and Ethiopian/Eritrean.
He is from the US.

The second one is from Mandera (kenyan Somali) lives in the Uk.
I have at least one confirmed claiming to be from Jigjiga. 98.8% Somali and the rest equal other Horner and Peninsular Arab.

drobbah
06-15-2021, 01:18 PM
I think the vast majority of the low frequency E-M293 in Somalia proper is probably from Afro-Arabs perhaps in Northern Kenya or Ethiopia is it more possible that it came from Cushitic/Ethio-Semitic sources.I still don't have a single match with that haplogroup

Megatron
06-15-2021, 04:38 PM
I have a Warsengeli relative on my 23andme relatives list that carries E-M293. According to his bio his mother is Hawiya and his paternal grandmother is Isaaq (‘Iise Muse). His father is a northern Warsengeli.

drobbah
06-15-2021, 04:48 PM
Warsengali seem to have some of the highest percentages of foreign male haplogroups among Northern Somalis.It's possible his lineage is from an Afro-Arab.There's a match of mine with significant Arab admixture (~20% Arabian plus 0.2% SE African) and claims on his bio that his paternal grandfather is from Yemen but carries Haplogroup A.

NetNomad
06-19-2021, 06:22 PM
Warsengali seem to have some of the highest percentages of foreign male haplogroups among Northern Somalis.It's possible his lineage is from an Afro-Arab.There's a match of mine with significant Arab admixture (~20% Arabian plus 0.2% SE African) and claims on his bio that his paternal grandfather is from Yemen but carries Haplogroup A.

Even R1b! has been found in Warsangelis. I think a large scale study (over a 100 samples) from a variety of Warsangelis needs to be done. I think the majority will be E-Y163949 and the runner up J-Y178103, but where all this other stuff (R1b, E-M293 etc.) comes from is quite mysterious.

PS. In a few weeks hopefully we will get an Arab Salah Full Y. It would be quite peculiar if he becomes J-Y178103.

farjanomar
06-23-2021, 11:34 AM
Yfull has been updated. What do you guys think?

NetNomad
06-23-2021, 04:14 PM
Yfull has been updated. What do you guys think?

The T Somali update is interesting.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-BY181210/

drobbah
06-24-2021, 01:33 PM
Well this update took the Palestinian E-Z813 into account which made the clade a bit younger than before.Not much change this time for us E-Y18629 Somalis

drobbah
07-02-2021, 06:44 PM
Gedo sample (probably Marexaan) was added alongside those Hartis.E-Y163928 is looking like the original Daarood lineage as I predicted before, all that's left for the Darood's are the Absame and Jidwaaq

Awale
07-02-2021, 08:00 PM
Gedo sample (probably Marexaan) was added alongside those Hartis.E-Y163928 is looking like the original Daarood lineage as I predicted before, all that's left for the Darood's are the Absame and Jidwaaq

He is indeed Mareexaan. He is "Mujahid Nur Marehan" over at Somalispot: https://www.somalispot.com/threads/marehan-yfull-result.117194/#post-2992680

drobbah
07-02-2021, 08:43 PM
Even R1b! has been found in Warsangelis. I think a large scale study (over a 100 samples) from a variety of Warsangelis needs to be done. I think the majority will be E-Y163949 and the runner up J-Y178103, but where all this other stuff (R1b, E-M293 etc.) comes from is quite mysterious.

PS. In a few weeks hopefully we will get an Arab Salah Full Y. It would be quite peculiar if he becomes J-Y178103.
I think he uploaded his sample, there's another Sanaagian J1 that shares the same exact clade as the other Somali J-P58 sample

NetNomad
07-02-2021, 11:19 PM
I think he uploaded his sample, there's another Sanaagian J1 that shares the same exact clade as the other Somali J-P58 sample

Interesting.. I was expecting Arab Salahs to have a different version of J1.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y178104/

The Arabian origin story of the Darod ethnogenesis might be based on that man (Somali version of J-Y178104) forming an alliance with an already established E-Y163949 tribe. Perhaps the name Darod was the name of the native Somali clan (E-Y163949), while Isma'il al-Jabarti actually existed (J-Y178104?).

Only an archaeogenetic study sequencing his grave can settle whether he was J-Y178104 or E-Y163949.

drobbah
07-02-2021, 11:41 PM
Interesting.. I was expecting Arab Salahs to have a different version of J1.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y178104/

I now think that the Arabian origin story of the Darod ethnogenesis is based on that man (Somali version of J-Y178104) forming an alliance with an already established E-Y163949 tribe. Perhaps the name Darod was the name of the native Somali clan (E-Y163949), while Isma'il al-Jabarti actually existed (J-Y178104?).

Only an archaeogenetic study sequencing Darod's grave can settle whether he was J-Y178104 or E-Y163949. Likely J-Y178104, IMO.
I think these myths of Arabian/Hashemite origins among Daroods & Isaaqs is quite recent.There is no mention of Arabian/Quraishi origin of the Daaroods in the Futuh Al Habasha.The Marexaan leader had to give up horses (sadaqa) to actual Arabian 'Quraishis' like the Ba'alawi as a way to pay blood money for a dead Adalite messenger

The Futuh mentions decent sized contigents of Mehri men with similar manpower to large sized modern Somali subclans and even brought more men then the Harti.The vast majority of these Mehri due to geographic proximity were likely absorbed by the Hartis and nearby Somalis.It is quite possible the other non-Harti J-P58 Somalis are just Mehri who were adopted into the clan system including some in the Madhibaan

The E-M183 non-coastal Sheikhaal are a great example of medieval foreign men (who's Maghrebi sheikh ancestors were mentioned in the Futuh) creating their own clan and end up being Somalianized.I suspect their are certain Isaaq subclans and sub-units that will turn out foreign as Megatron pointed out J1 in an HJ individual (probably Mehri type).

I already suspect the Arap subclan who are E-V22 & E-M78* to be foreign but it could turn out their E-V22 could be a local Somali or Horner variant.

NetNomad
07-03-2021, 12:38 AM
drobbah Awale farjanomar Omaar Delftextra

There are some J1 guys in the Somali FTDNA project who did Big Y recently. Not sure if the most recent J1 Somali yfull upload is the Arab Salah guy or not.

drobbah
07-03-2021, 09:48 AM
drobbah Awale farjanomar Omaar Delftextra

There are some J1 guys in the Somali FTDNA project who did Big Y recently. Not sure if the most recent J1 Somali yfull upload is the Arab Salah guy or not.
You are right there is a third J-P58 Somali sample who clusters with Omani,Mahra and Socotran samples that share a recent medieval tmrca.Those Sanaagian J1s must be far more ancient than the medieval period then, very interesting!

Omaar
07-04-2021, 04:51 AM
drobbah Awale farjanomar Omaar Delftextra

There are some J1 guys in the Somali FTDNA project who did Big Y recently. Not sure if the most recent J1 Somali yfull upload is the Arab Salah guy or not.

"Un gruppo Mahrī nella Somalia italiana." Authors : Cerulli, Enrico. 1926
"A Mahrī group in Italian Somalia." Authors: Cerulli, Enrico. 1926
https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/handle/2307/4158?locale=it

drobbah
07-07-2021, 03:48 PM
Deleted

drobbah
07-10-2021, 01:11 AM
Another Gedo sample (probably Marexaan) clustering with the Borana and Amhara.E-Y161124 is an Oromo subclade imo

NetNomad
07-10-2021, 02:50 AM
Another Gedo sample (probably Marexaan) clustering with the Borana and Amhara.E-Y161124 is an Oromo subclade imo

I think Darod subclans tend to have a sizable cohort that are not E-Y163928 / E-Y163949. Looks like a pattern now.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
07-10-2021, 06:33 AM
That's a Garre tuf sub clan sample, it's not Marehan.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
07-10-2021, 06:38 AM
I oploaded my sample a week ago, I'm Marehan reer ugaas Diini, my sub clade is E-Y163949*. Marehan we are treu Darod, its a Garre sample my friend just told me.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
07-10-2021, 08:22 AM
Insh'Allah their will be many more Marehan samples to come. So far Garadada Marehan and many Marehan are testing positive for sub clade E-Y163949* I'm confident rest of Marehan will have similar results.

NetNomad
07-10-2021, 09:55 AM
That's a Garre tuf sub clan sample, it's not Marehan.

Interesting.

Nice to see some samples from rare clans.

drobbah
07-10-2021, 03:04 PM
I oploaded my sample a week ago, I'm Marehan reer ugaas Diini, my sub clade is E-Y163949*. Marehan we are treu Darod, its a Garre sample my friend just told me.
Makes sense that the sample is Garre and not Marexaan.The Garre today are basically Oromos with their own unique identity and speak Boran as their first language.The other Garre sample in the ftdna project seems similar to the deep tested Garre based on the strs.I think that Garre on yfull will form young subclade with the Borana.The Amhara sample probably represents the original Barentu E-V32 lineage.Hopefully some of the Oromos start taking the BigY or Dante as they are the largest cushitic ethnicity in the world and a group quite close to us Somalis (LE Cushitic and heavy historical interactions with a long ethnic border)

NetNomad
07-12-2021, 07:52 AM
Makes sense that the sample is Garre and not Marexaan.The Garre today are basically Oromos with their own unique identity and speak Boran as their first language.The other Garre sample in the ftdna project seems similar to the deep tested Garre based on the strs.I think that Garre on yfull will form young subclade with the Borana.The Amhara sample probably represents the original Barentu E-V32 lineage.Hopefully some of the Oromos start taking the BigY or Dante as they are the largest cushitic ethnicity in the world and a group quite close to us Somalis (LE Cushitic and heavy historical interactions with a long ethnic border)

Are Oromos tribally paternal like Somalis or do they identify more with their town/region and have regional identities?

From the Y studies I have seen of Horners, it seems like only Sahos, Afars, and Somalis are heavily bottlenecked paternally. Perhaps also North Kenyan Boranas, but the sample size of them was small. Ethiopian Oromos seem paternally more diverse/less bottlenecked.

drobbah
07-13-2021, 01:57 PM
Are Oromos tribally paternal like Somalis or do they identify more with their town/region and have regional identities?
Oromos just like Somalis are tribally paternal.The name of their ethnic group just like Somalis goes back to their mythical ancestor Oromo who had two sons Barentu & Boran, the only difference between us and them is that they are openly willing to assimilate foreign males into the Oromo nation via the Gadaa system.Somalis are far more xenophobic culturally then the Oromos.



From the Y studies I have seen of Horners, it seems like only Sahos, Afars, and Somalis are heavily bottlenecked paternally. Perhaps also North Kenyan Boranas, but the sample size of them was small. Ethiopian Oromos seem paternally more diverse/less bottlenecked. The Ethiopian Oromos are also autosomally more diverse as well and this all goes back to the Medieval Oromo migrations and the assimilation of many ethnic groups through the Gadaa system.I won't be surprised if we find Somali-specific lineages among the Afran Qallo Oromos excluding their Akichu & Jaarso brothers.I predict that E-Y161124 would be one of the original and perhaps dominant lineage of the pre-expansion Oromo pastoralist clans which is why the Amhara sample carries it.The Habesha/Northern Cushitic variant of E-V32 seems to solidly be E-FGC14383 as the basal ETH sample is actually an Agaw speaking Ethiopian Jew if I'm not mistaken

drobbah
07-13-2021, 06:44 PM
Some quotes from a book I was reading about Oromos:



There is no exact Oromo term for clan.The closer term is Gosa, which is not just a clan, but 'a large category of descent groups which includes all peoples descended from a mythical or common ancestor.Gosa is also 'one of the mechanisms for defining individual and collective identity' within Oromo society...Together with with the Gadaa systme and Qaalluu institution, gosa appears to have shaped the course of Oromo history.Members of a gosa have rights and obligations for helping each other in different situations.As Paul Baxter observed among the Borana, members of a gosa should render each other every sort of assistance, contributions to fines, hospitality,help with herding, gifts in misfortune and distributions from fortunes of booty

It was precisely for these reasons that young boys were taught about family tree within a gosa.According to Haberland, a boy of five years knows the names of his forefathers to the depth of 12 to 15 generations. The basic rules of gosa include descent through paternal line, strict exogamous marriage, territorially defined area that bears a name of a particular gosa


Seems quite similar to Somalis if you ask me

farjanomar
07-16-2021, 05:30 AM
I think these myths of Arabian/Hashemite origins among Daroods & Isaaqs is quite recent.There is no mention of Arabian/Quraishi origin of the Daaroods in the Futuh Al Habasha.The Marexaan leader had to give up horses (sadaqa) to actual Arabian 'Quraishis' like the Ba'alawi as a way to pay blood money for a dead Adalite messenger

The Futuh mentions decent sized contigents of Mehri men with similar manpower to large sized modern Somali subclans and even brought more men then the Harti.The vast majority of these Mehri due to geographic proximity were likely absorbed by the Hartis and nearby Somalis.It is quite possible the other non-Harti J-P58 Somalis are just Mehri who were adopted into the clan system including some in the Madhibaan

The E-M183 non-coastal Sheikhaal are a great example of medieval foreign men (who's Maghrebi sheikh ancestors were mentioned in the Futuh) creating their own clan and end up being Somalianized.I suspect their are certain Isaaq subclans and sub-units that will turn out foreign as Megatron pointed out J1 in an HJ individual (probably Mehri type).

I already suspect the Arap subclan who are E-V22 & E-M78* to be foreign but it could turn out their E-V22 could be a local Somali or Horner variant.


Its interesting that Non Coastal Sheikhals are E-M183. I was going to test my roommate who is AwQudub, but he said No.

drobbah
07-19-2021, 12:20 AM
An Eastern Saudi sample has joined the Gedo sample in the possibly proto-Oromo E-Y161124 subclade.Things are getting interesting

Mujahid Nur Marehan
07-28-2021, 05:33 PM
I predict that Jidwaaq who are original inhabitants of Jigjiga and Marehan will form a subclade. Futux records that Geri and Marehan had a land conflict. Today the jidwaaq tribes border Geri tribe. At the time of Futux the Marehan Garaad Hirabu met the Iman between Harar and Saylac.Also alott of Jidwaaq claim to be reer Hodenbare. While Marehan abtirsi ends at Hodanbari ma rexaan. Also Amiir Nur is recorded to be from in arabic Suha Duha or reer HodanBari ma Rexaan.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
07-29-2021, 04:47 AM
There is a new E-BY8081sample. Is it Majerteen or reer Cabdile Ogaden?

farjanomar
07-29-2021, 05:43 AM
There is a new E-BY8081sample. Is it Majerteen or reer Cabdile Ogaden?

He is on FTDNA. Recently got his big Y result. (MJ-Osman M)

Abdirahman
08-02-2021, 05:36 PM
Hey brother. I wanted to ask you about this DNA and haplogroups because you seem to know much about it.

My first question is, is it possible for two people with different Y-haplogroups (maybe because of a random mutation) to share a ancestor? For example can two people do this so called snp-markers or str-markers and see how related or close they are to each other even if they have different y-haplogroups. My other question is why doesn't 23andMe not add Somaliland regions like they do with Somalia, 23andMe seem to have very inaccurate maps and just groups everyone to Banadir region for example as I have seen on people that tested 23andMe.

NetNomad
08-09-2021, 12:09 PM
Hey brother. I wanted to ask you about this DNA and haplogroups because you seem to know much about it.

My first question is, is it possible for two people with different Y-haplogroups (maybe because of a random mutation) to share a ancestor? For example can two people do this so called snp-markers or str-markers and see how related or close they are to each other even if they have different y-haplogroups.

Yes, through other ancestors who don't fall on the direct paternal or the direct maternal line. Most ancestors actually don't. That is why autosomal DNA is important as well.


My other question is why doesn't 23andMe not add Somaliland regions like they do with Somalia, 23andMe seem to have very inaccurate maps and just groups everyone to Banadir region for example as I have seen on people that tested 23andMe.

Most Somalis on 23andMe are Western diaspora (US, CA, UK, EU) who left the Horn from Mogadishu (90s war). Many of the zoomers have grandparents born in Mogadishu and fill this in the survey, even if they are ancestrally truly from different places within the Horn (K5, Puntland etc). So take the Banaadir provincial category with a grain of salt. The other ones are semi-accurate.

Araz
08-27-2021, 08:53 AM
ASC brothers, I just joined this group today and read the posts with a lot of interest. I am new to this stuff but fascinated by the findings and happy to learn more from you. I got my BigY recently and waiting for my yfull analysis to be completed. I am E-Y196848 (from E-BY8085 - E-Y18637). There are two other E-Y196848 (father and son) all of us Majertein Cismaan Maxamud. We are also related on 23andme - I am second cousin twice removed with his father. I am noticing how the few MJ Cismaan Maxamud don't seem to have the same recent paternal lineage and the results seem all over the place. For example, before BigY I clustered with an Omar Maxamud guy but after BigY and a new guy joining in we have formed our own group with his father. The Omar Maxamud guy is now clustered with another Cisman Maxamud. I can't figure this out! What do you think? I noticed you've been mentioning a Libyan guy who must be Somali (E-BY8085). He comes up as my relative at 67 markers as does a Jordanian guy (E-BY7964), a Saudi (E-M35) and a Sudanese (E-M35).

drobbah
10-10-2021, 12:42 PM
The Dir Muse Dhariye sample and the Ugaaslabe sample are both under Y18637. Considering the age of Y18637, perhaps it’s responsible for spreading the parent language of Af-Somali & Af May? Way to many Somalis are falling under that bottleneck except for us Habar Awal and a large percentage of the Darood.

NetNomad
10-12-2021, 11:10 PM
The Dir Muse Dhariye sample and the Ugaaslabe sample are both under Y18637. Considering the age of Y18637, perhaps it’s responsible for spreading the parent language of Af-Somali & Af May? Way to many Somalis are falling under that bottleneck except for us Habar Awal and a large percentage of the Darood.

What timeframe do linguists claim Maay and Maxaa split? They seem fairly close to me, but that could also be because of recent Maxaa influence on Maay (from media, schooling etc.). If I were to guess, I'd say 2K years before present? Distance feels to me like about the same as the various West Germanic languages.

I hear those other Somali-like languages in the South like Jiddu, Garre, and Tunni are linguistically substantially further removed from Maxaa. It will be hard to find Jiddus and Tunnis in the West, but Garres might upload to yfull sooner or later.

farjanomar
10-13-2021, 08:48 PM
The Dir Muse Dhariye sample and the Ugaaslabe sample are both under Y18637. Considering the age of Y18637, perhaps it’s responsible for spreading the parent language of Af-Somali & Af May? Way to many Somalis are falling under that bottleneck except for us Habar Awal and a large percentage of the Darood.


Yeah, It also looks like, perhaps the largest single Somali lineage. Only less than 15 big Y, results, on Yfull and already has 5 major Downstream lineages.

E-Y18637:

:BY8081 BY8085 BY8100 BY192465 Y229072:

NetNomad
10-15-2021, 10:46 AM
Yeah, It also looks like, perhaps the largest single Somali lineage. Only less than 15 big Y, results, on Yfull and already has 5 major Downstream lineages.

E-Y18637:

:BY8081 BY8085 BY8100 BY192465 Y229072:

:lol: I bet some people will eventually claim it is Samaale's SNP.

farjanomar
10-21-2021, 07:56 PM
Hi everyone!

Yfull has been updated. There are some changes to the tmrca's of both Somali E and T.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
10-22-2021, 01:36 AM
It's looking messy for Somali oral geneiology the two Sameroon have formed a sister sibling sub clade, instead of forming the same clade. It seems old clans had alott of integration back and forth and didn't seem to have a strict sub clan identity.

Garaacad
11-04-2021, 10:39 AM
Why has the TMRCA changed for Majeerteens from 750 to 1200 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY8081*/

NetNomad
11-04-2021, 11:15 AM
Why has the TMRCA changed for Majeerteens from 750 to 1200 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY8081*/

You are better off asking this question in this thread where Somalis discuss Y stuff.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11485-Somalis-and-E-Y17859/page58

Garaacad
11-04-2021, 11:34 AM
Why has the TMRCA changed for Majeerteens from 750 to 1200 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY8081*/

Garaacad
11-04-2021, 11:35 AM
I’m asking because I’m Majeerteen myself. I’m new here.

NetNomad
11-04-2021, 01:31 PM
Why has the TMRCA changed for Majeerteens from 750 to 1200 years.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY8081*/

TMRCAs change as more samples are uploaded.

It is very volatile when there are only a handful of samples, but it stabilizes when there are many samples.


I’m asking because I’m Majeerteen myself. I’m new here.

E-FT81055 are also Majeerteens, but not from the Saleebaan group.

Garaacad
11-04-2021, 02:31 PM
TMRCAs change as more samples are uploaded.

It is very volatile when there are only a handful of samples, but it stabilizes when there are many samples.



E-FT81055 are also Majeerteens, but not from the Saleebaan group.

What sub clan of Majeerteen is E-FT81055.

NetNomad
11-06-2021, 02:16 AM
What sub clan of Majeerteen is E-FT81055.

Message farjanomar. He is one of those samples.

drobbah
11-06-2021, 05:32 AM
Found a Bah Gob Sacad Muuse who is E-V32+ on 23&me with the only other Bah Gob sample being the user GabrielZelalem who is T-M70+.Obviously this continues to support my hyopthesis of the Habar Awal being a clan based on a medieval founder that perhaps probably incoporated other Isaaqs or Dir.The Bah Gob are Hussein Abokor (at least 30-40% of Sacad Muuse belong to this clan),Bah Gob historically live alongside my Jibriil Abokor clan.I would assume if one of these Hussein Abokor brothers took the BigY they would probably belong to a subclade of E-BY75676 or perhaps the same subclade as me and the other Jibriil Abokor fellow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eexy4N_XoAAaHnK?format=jpg&name=large

farjanomar
11-06-2021, 04:45 PM
We are going to have a new Major 4th SNP of E-Y18629 in next few months. I am in contact with owner of kit # MK70058
in group 1.4. He has upgraded to big Y. Also 1-2 other People in the group said, they will upgrade, when the holiday
discount becomes available.

drobbah
11-06-2021, 08:56 PM
The Somali J1 samples (J-Y179455) have a subclade that separated from the rest of their Yemeni brothers 2500 years ago but also have a medieval founder effect like most other major Somali clans regardless of haplogroup lol.Seems like this lineage might have been among the early proto-Somali speakers prior to the Somali (Af-Maxay) expansion.We need some of those E-L677 Somalis (mostly from the Isaaq Arap subclan) to take the BigY

Garaacad
11-07-2021, 12:31 PM
We are going to have a new Major 4th SNP of E-Y18629 in next few months. I am in contact with owner of kit # MK70058
in group 1.4. He has upgraded to big Y. Also 1-2 other People in the group said, they will upgrade, when the holiday
discount becomes available.

Bit off topic but what is your sub clan of Majeerteen.

Garaacad
11-14-2021, 01:42 PM
@Farjanomar I don’t have enough posts to PM you. I would just like to know the relationship of Majeerteens and Samaales

farjanomar
11-17-2021, 09:33 PM
@Farjanomar I don’t have enough posts to PM you. I would just like to know the relationship of Majeerteens and Samaales

I sent a private message. Also, my background is on FTDNA kit #B679308.

Have you taken a test?

NetNomad
11-18-2021, 08:49 AM
We need more Southern Big Y or Full Y test takers to know where E-Y18637 is most diverse. The South or the North? So far, it has more subclades in the North, but this could be sampling bias (more North Somalis have taken these tests).

E-BY8100 which the Saudis fellows carry could potentially be of Southern Somali origin as Arabia and Southern coastal Somalia seemingly had more population interchange than Northern Somalia and Arabia did.

PS. With North vs South I am using Mudug as the border between the two areas. Not using it in the colloquial sense of Waqooyi Galbeed.

Garaacad
11-18-2021, 12:14 PM
I sent a private message. Also, my background is on FTDNA kit #B679308.

Have you taken a test?

I haven’t but I will in a couple of years. I’d just like to know the basics first because I’m quite clueless about everything right now. I’ve also seen your private message I know your clan background. The reason I asked is because I wanted to know if any Majeerteen sub clan had clustered with Daroods.

Garaacad
11-18-2021, 12:18 PM
We need more Southern Big Y or Full Y test takers to know where E-Y18637 is most diverse. The South or the North? So far, it has more subclades in the North, but this could be sampling bias (more North Somalis have taken these tests).

E-BY8100 which the Saudis fellows carry could potentially be of Southern Somali origin as Arabia and Southern coastal Somalia seemingly had more population interchange than Northern Somalia and Arabia did.

PS. With North vs South I am using Mudug as the border between the two areas. Not using it in the colloquial sense of Waqooyi Galbeed.
Do you have any Hawiye results already. Iím a bit confused are Majeerteens a Southern population originally ? Are Majeerteens older or younger than Hawiyes ?

NetNomad
11-18-2021, 03:57 PM
Do you have any Hawiye results already. I’m a bit confused are Majeerteens a Southern population originally ? Are Majeerteens older or younger than Hawiyes ?

The TMRCA difference is not recent. I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

Garaacad
11-18-2021, 09:06 PM
The TMRCA difference is not recent. I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

As I was reading through this thread someone suggested E-Y18637 will be representative of proto-Somaal (before the af-maxa and af-maay spilt ) and the TMRCAs will go down with more samples.

Araz
11-19-2021, 05:49 AM
Does anyone know how the Somali YFull group works? I've joined but can't see anything other than a few email addresses.

Garaacad
11-19-2021, 11:07 AM
Does anyone know how the Somali YFull group works? I've joined but can't see anything other than a few email addresses.

Whatís your haplogroup btw.

NetNomad
11-19-2021, 11:32 AM
Does anyone know how the Somali YFull group works? I've joined but can't see anything other than a few email addresses.

You can compare STRs here:

https://yfull.com/groups/somali/cstr/

and check SNP results of co-members here:

https://yfull.com/groups/somali/snp/

farjanomar
11-20-2021, 12:01 AM
@Farjanomar I don’t have enough posts to PM you. I would just like to know the relationship of Majeerteens and Samaales

We are long way off, knowing how each and every Clan genetics are related. Because we don't have enough big Y samples
to compare. Maybe 5-15 years or when the price comes down to $100-150.

Muhammadk
11-20-2021, 03:25 AM
ASC brothers, I just joined this group today and read the posts with a lot of interest. I am new to this stuff but fascinated by the findings and happy to learn more from you. I got my BigY recently and waiting for my yfull analysis to be completed. I am E-Y196848 (from E-BY8085 - E-Y18637). There are two other E-Y196848 (father and son) all of us Majertein Cismaan Maxamud. We are also related on 23andme - I am second cousin twice removed with his father. I am noticing how the few MJ Cismaan Maxamud don't seem to have the same recent paternal lineage and the results seem all over the place. For example, before BigY I clustered with an Omar Maxamud guy but after BigY and a new guy joining in we have formed our own group with his father. The Omar Maxamud guy is now clustered with another Cisman Maxamud. I can't figure this out! What do you think? I noticed you've been mentioning a Libyan guy who must be Somali (E-BY8085). He comes up as my relative at 67 markers as does a Jordanian guy (E-BY7964), a Saudi (E-M35) and a Sudanese (E-M35).

Asc brother, a guy on somalispot named lipax something said u r ismacil maxamed. Is it true???

Mujahid Nur Marehan
11-20-2021, 05:40 PM
We can see a new Ogaden reer Cabdile reer warfaa brother on YFULL live forming a sub clade with Ugaadlabe Sanaag sample here https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT420077/

NetNomad
11-20-2021, 05:40 PM
Some people are claiming that most of the Darods with J1 are in fact of Gabooye origin because a non-Darod claiming Gabooye from Ethiopia was found to belong to J1 on 23andMe (so far he hasn't done a Big Y type of test) and this Majeerteen claiming subclan Ciise Adde has a history of iron working yet they don't consider themselves to be Gabooye and claim to be Darod abtiris-wise.

It would be supremely ironic if the supposed ''low caste'' among Northern Somalis have in fact Arab origins. Of course more data is needed before this can be confirmed.

NetNomad
11-20-2021, 05:42 PM
We can see a new Ogaden reer Cabdile reer warfaa brother on YFULL live forming a sub clade with Ugaadlabe Sanaag sample here https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT420077/

TMRCA not live yet, but I think it will be between 1,500 and 1,200 years YPB because the SNP number isn't high.

NetNomad
11-20-2021, 06:59 PM
Some people are claiming that most of the Darods with J1 are in fact of Gabooye origin because a non-Darod claiming Gabooye from Ethiopia was found to belong to J1 on 23andMe (so far he hasn't done a Big Y type of test) and this Majeerteen claiming subclan Ciise Adde has a history of iron working yet they don't consider themselves to be Gabooye and claim to be Darod abtiris-wise.

It would be supremely ironic if the supposed ''low caste'' among Northern Somalis have in fact Arab origins. Of course more data is needed before this can be confirmed.

Relevant quote:

''Any man who commonly engages in occupations other than herding or farming is generally a ‘pariah’. Moreover every caste, regardless of its particular metier, is accorded similar treatment” (H.S. Lewis 1962). H.S Lewis’ analytical proposal was that of studying the subordination of occupational specialists as a “structural theme” of the societies of the Horn. H.S. Lewis believed that considering the “castes” as “remnant groups” could not be sustained on linguistic, physical or any other kind of evidence. Their numbers were usually extremely small inside the hosting societies but “their distribution is so even among all the Cushitic groups that another explanation must be sought” (H.S. Lewis 1962). Furthermore, they are found in a huge variety of economic and political systems, such as among sedentary farmers and nomadic pastoralists, under both complex and centralised monarchies and dispersed political institutions (like in the Somali case). We are thus dealing with a “structural” element of the region which, according to H.S. Lewis, had to be analysed in parallel with “the history and the distribution of occupational castes elsewhere in Africa and in Asia” (H.S. Lewis 1962).''

So these types of caste-like clans are not necessarily related paternally.

Araz
11-22-2021, 12:05 AM
ASC Muhammadk - that is correct

Garaacad
11-22-2021, 09:03 PM
What’s the case with Habar Awals ? Is there some sort of a spilt in the paternal line. There was T in a lineage of Habar Awal that was considered to all be E-V32.

NetNomad
11-23-2021, 05:30 PM
What’s the case with Habar Awals ? Is there some sort of a spilt in the paternal line. There was T in a lineage of Habar Awal that was considered to all be E-V32.

It depends on the sub-sub-clans. Most are E-BY155996, but some exist with T-BY181210, but this is not surprising since they live with many T-BY181210 clans nearby.

Omaar
11-24-2021, 03:44 PM
We are going to have a new Major 4th SNP of E-Y18629 in next few months. I am in contact with owner of kit # MK70058
in group 1.4. He has upgraded to big Y. Also 1-2 other People in the group said, they will upgrade, when the holiday
discount becomes available.

Kit # MK70058 is probably E-V6163.

NetNomad
11-24-2021, 04:38 PM
Kit # MK70058 is probably E-V6163.

STRs have been misleading before. People in the Somali project were grouped in the wrong cluster based on STRs, then Big Y showed different sub-group affinity.

Weirdly, DYS388=13 is a reliable indicator for E-Y163949, but even that could be shown to be incorrect with more data.

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Garaacad
11-28-2021, 05:36 PM
TMRCA not live yet, but I think it will be between 1,500 and 1,200 years YPB because the SNP number isn't high.

Don’t those 2 Darood outliers match with a Madhibaan subclan on Familytreedna. The Madhibaan claim to descendants of Maxamed Gorgaate the grandson of Hawiye (searched it up). Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the TMCRA is 1,200-1500 YPB wouldn’t that make Majeerteens more closely related to Hawiyes.

Somaliguy
11-29-2021, 07:25 PM
The two samples under E-FT420077 are not Majeerteen and don't match with a Madhibaan subclade on FamilyTreeDNA. The TMRCA of 1200 means that the Majerteen share a common ancestor 1200 years ago. Anyway, we need more samples to make better inferences.

Garaacad
11-29-2021, 09:41 PM
The two samples under E-FT420077 are not Majeerteen and don't match with a Madhibaan subclade on FamilyTreeDNA. The TMRCA of 1200 means that the Majerteen share a common ancestor 1200 years ago. Anyway, we need more samples to make better inferences.
I know those 2 samples aren’t Majeerteen I think 1 is a subclan of Warsangeli and the other is an Ogaden subclan. Muuse Dhariye is a sub clan of Madhibaan they match each other in the Somali group on FamilyTreeDNA.

NetNomad
11-30-2021, 06:39 PM
I know those 2 samples aren’t Majeerteen I think 1 is a subclan of Warsangeli and the other is an Ogaden subclan. Muuse Dhariye is a sub clan of Madhibaan they match each other in the Somali group on FamilyTreeDNA.

Check the live tree,

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-Y18629/

They (E-FT420077) don't share a recent SNP with the Dhariye (YF92955).

Mujahid Nur Marehan
12-02-2021, 01:04 AM
We have two new Somali samples today on EV32, so what's their sub clans?

NetNomad
12-02-2021, 01:06 AM
We have two new Somali samples today on EV32, so what's their sub clans?

Looks like new Bah Gari samples? That clan really has many different sub-clades. But for the new E-BY192465 sample I am not sure.

Garaacad
12-04-2021, 02:46 PM
The new E-BY192465 sample has formed a new subclade with the Banaadir sample on the live tree.

drobbah
12-04-2021, 03:38 PM
E-Y18629 will probably end being a lot older now

Omaar
12-04-2021, 06:24 PM
There is another person, who have not yet uploaded his results to Yfull. He is on FTDNA. We all three are FT77328+ but I and the new guy, who is on Yfull, have 4 additional SNPs. If that person who is on FTDNA upload his results to Yfull then me and the new guy will have a new subclade.

Garaacad
12-04-2021, 06:43 PM
There is another person, who have not yet uploaded his results to Yfull. He is on FTDNA. We all three are FT77328+ but I and the new guy, who is on Yfull, have 4 additional SNPs. If that person who is on FTDNA upload his results to Yfull then me and the new guy will have a new subclade.

What is his clan and the one already on YFull I’m guessing both are Hawiye.

NetNomad
12-04-2021, 10:36 PM
What is his clan and the one already on YFull Iím guessing both are Hawiye.

I hope more Hawiyes do these tests.

We know enough about Darod and Isaaq by now.

Hawiye is under-researched. I am especially interested in Habar Gidir results.

NetNomad
12-04-2021, 10:47 PM
E-Y18629 will probably end being a lot older now

Not sure of that, click on the info tab of E-Y18629

Most of the samples are in the 2000s range. It will likely remain in the 2Ks for the foreseeable future. Earlier on when there were fewer samples we had bigger swings, but of course I could be wrong, my two cents.

Garaacad
12-05-2021, 11:15 AM
I hope more Hawiyes do these tests.

We know enough about Darod and Isaaq by now.

Hawiye is under-researched. I am especially interested in Habar Gidir results.
So the samples under the new subclade are Hawiye ? If so what are their subclans I don’t have access to Somali group on FamilyTreeDNA I just saw a screenshot on the Somalispot.com forum.

NetNomad
12-05-2021, 12:05 PM
So the samples under the new subclade are Hawiye ? If so what are their subclans I don’t have access to Somali group on FamilyTreeDNA I just saw a screenshot on the Somalispot.com forum.

Ask Omaar over DM. Some people also don't like stating their clans publicly.

drobbah
12-06-2021, 02:12 PM
Whatís the case with Habar Awals ? Is there some sort of a spilt in the paternal line. There was T in a lineage of Habar Awal that was considered to all be E-V32.
The Habar Awal are mostly E-BY75676 which is around 8-900 years old, my current subclade is downstream of that and is shared with another Jibriil Abokor with a possible tmrca likely to be around 300 ybp if he decided to upload on yfull.It seems there is a very small minority T-M70+ jilibs scattered the Habar Awal but they probably represent later assimilations.It is very apparent that the vast majority of Habar Awal share a medieval ancestor. Upstream of BY75676 at E-BY155996, there is a Southern Ashraaf but we probably didn't share an ancestor with him for atleast 2k-2700 years

Omaar
12-07-2021, 05:29 AM
Ask Omaar over DM. Some people also don't like stating their clans publicly.

I really don't know their clans. Maybe they are waiting the right time to tell.

NetNomad
12-07-2021, 01:48 PM
Speculative, but it looks like the Marehan mainly have two lineages.

E-Y163949 and E-Y161124.

E-Y163949 is connected to Northeast Somalis and matches their oral history.

E-Y161124 is connected to Oromos and it is safe to assume this lineage entered the Marehan via pre-Darod Gedo locals (Southwest Somalia). I have read material claiming Oromos used to live in Jubbaland?

farjanomar
12-10-2021, 01:45 AM
Kit # MK70058 is probably E-V6163.

You guessed it right bro. The results came in today, and he is indeed E-V6163. There is another person awaiting his big Y results in that group, Kit# 955730. This group looks more and more like they are positive for E-Z21175.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
12-14-2021, 12:31 AM
We have a interesting Luwey Geledi results. He seems to have a totally different STR'S compared to the other Dir sample's, perhaps he caries an Ethiopian T subclade or perhaps an ancient proto Dir lineage.

Zxcvbn
12-17-2021, 01:54 PM
How can I see somali YDNA results on FTDNA?

NetNomad
12-18-2021, 12:41 AM
How can I see somali YDNA results on FTDNA?

You need to join the project.

If you haven't done a Y-37 test, you can also join through uploading a 23andMe file to FTDNA (this gives you access to FT projects).

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/somali/

NetNomad
12-28-2021, 05:15 PM
TMRCA of just 850 years for this group:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y204806/

Looks like that Saudi and Amhara Ethiopian are Southwest Somali paternally? Or it is a recently spread Oromo lineage?

Leaning towards the second option.

drobbah
12-28-2021, 05:20 PM
It’s more likely an Oromo lineage which would explain why upstream there’s a Kenyan Borana and a new Garre sample.I think this lineage was responsible for the medieval pastoralist expansion of the Oromos and the Saudi individual is probably a descendant of an Oromo/Southern Ethiopian male slave

Mujahid Nur Marehan
12-28-2021, 11:56 PM
Is that Garre sample the one that formed close sub clade with Saudi and Ethiopian?
The Saudi guy might be an ancient Somali/Oromo individual that went on pilgrimage to Meca and never came back. Maybe that explains so many gulf samples of Horn of African origin.

drobbah
12-29-2021, 02:06 AM
Is that Garre sample the one that formed close sub clade with Saudi and Ethiopian?
No that's the Marexaan E-V6163 sample and actually if you check the live tree, he is actually upstream from the Amhara & Saudi.The other new sample is the Garre re-uploading his sample and will form a new subclade (E-BY64848) with the Kenyan Borana


The Saudi guy might be an ancient Somali/Oromo individual that went on pilgrimage to Meca and never came back. Maybe that explains so many gulf samples of Horn of African origin.
He's more likely a descendant of an Oromo or descends from an Ethiopian ethnic group that assimilated Oromos.Arabians with Horner haplogroups tend more then likely descend from slaves shipped during the Indian Ocean Slave trade.

As for the Arabs with Somali haplogroups, they probably descend from Muslim Scholars,merchants or Pilgrims but they are not many.We have one Libyan from an Ashraaf tribe in Sirte,Saudis from the Hijazi Badawi Bedouin clan and another group from the Al Hubaish Najdi tribe.There's also a Red Sea coast Sudani that shares similar strs with these Hijazi Badawis who are also on yfull.There's also a Yemeni sample that probably belongs to the Darood clan and a Saudi from a clan that lives in 'Asir (on Saudi-Yemeni border) is a likely a fellow Sacad Muuse based on his strs lol and we were the clan that dominated the coastal Berbera trade.

NetNomad
12-29-2021, 08:58 AM
No that's the Marexaan E-V6163 sample and actually if you check the live tree, he is actually upstream from the Amhara & Saudi.The other new sample is the Garre re-uploading his sample and will form a new subclade (E-BY64848) with the Kenyan Borana


He's more likely a descendant of an Oromo or descends from an Ethiopian ethnic group that assimilated Oromos.Arabians with Horner haplogroups tend more then likely descend from slaves shipped during the Indian Ocean Slave trade.

As for the Arabs with Somali haplogroups, they probably descend from Muslim Scholars,merchants or Pilgrims but they are not many.We have one Libyan from an Ashraaf tribe in Sirte,Saudis from the Hijazi Badawi Bedouin clan and another group from the Al Hubaish Najdi tribe.There's also a Red Sea coast Sudani that shares similar strs with these Hijazi Badawis who are also on yfull.There's also a Yemeni sample that probably belongs to the Darood clan and a Saudi from a clan that lives in 'Asir (on Saudi-Yemeni border) is a likely a fellow Sacad Muuse based on his strs lol and we were the clan that dominated the coastal Berbera trade.

Mostly agree with you here, but you can never be too sure of this. Perhaps that Saudi guy if he reads this can comment on his family history and give us some extra info.

farjanomar
12-29-2021, 06:59 PM
My hypothesis is, since we already know the following that:

A-Z813 is the majority East Cushitic ancestor.
B-E-Y17859 is the majority Somali ancestor, and. E-16829 being 100% Somali.
C-E-Z21175 being majoriy Oromo East Cushitic ancestor.

About 500 BC Somali Ethnicity/Tribe was already established as E-Y16829.

So imo All Somalis carrying E-Z21175 are assimilated post Oromo Expantion, post Ahmed Gurey, and post Ajuuran.
The same applies to the Ethiopian Ethnicities carrying Somali Y- DNA Lineages.

drobbah
12-29-2021, 08:52 PM
Mostly agree with you here, but you can never be too sure of this. Perhaps that Saudi guy if he reads this can comment on his family history and give us some extra info.
He's from Khobar,Eastern Saudi Arabia but you are right hopefully he provides more info and I wonder if his family knew of their Horner origins.


My hypothesis is, since we already know the following that:

A-Z813 is the majority East Cushitic ancestor.
B-E-Y17859 is the majority Somali ancestor, and. E-Y16829 being 100% Somali.
C-E-Z21175 being majoriy Oromo East Cushitic ancestor.

About 500 BC Somali Ethnicity/Tribe was already established as E-Y16829.

The other branch of E-Y17859 is carried by an Egyptian who is E-BY8075* and two downstream Saudis from a Northern Hijazi bedouin clan.We probably split off from them outside the Horn (somewhere in the Eastern Deserts of Egypt/Sudan?) before our ancestors arrived in the Horn which might mean our ancestors were one of the late waves of Pastoralists entering the Horn. This would make sense since our TMRCA with the basal Egyptian E-Y17859* is 3600 ybp.Are our ancestors language shifters who due to a founder effect became successful among an East Cushitic speaking group? Who knows lol

E-Z813 has been in the Horn for some time as there is apparently one E-Z813 Kenyan Pastoralist but imo he probably didn't belong to our branch but rather the E-Z21175 group (which includes the Oromos,the very upstream Sanaag sample and Kenyan Luos).I could be very wrong tho..



So imo All Somalis carrying E-Z21175 are assimilated post Oromo Expantion, post Ahmed Gurey, and post Ajuuran.
The same applies to the Ethiopian Ethnicities carrying Somali Y- DNA Lineages.
Not true as Somalis could have easily had E-Z21175 (like that Sanaag sample) and perhaps were once dominated by it alongside other lineages such as E-V22 found in Arap-Isaaq,E-V16 found in Sanbuur Isaaq perhaps some A-M13 lineage and even E-V6 but extreme founder effects from young lineages such as E-Y18629 & T-BY181210 have diminished Af-Maxaa y-dna diversity.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
12-29-2021, 09:56 PM
We probibally lived around Eritrea, all the way to Egypt. That might also explain our nomadic culture.

drobbah
12-30-2021, 12:34 AM
The new sample that is E-Y18637* without the Somali flag is actually a Kuwaiti.Which adds another MENA individual to our long lost Somali list.What is interesting this time is that based on his strs he is similar not only to the Muse Dhariye clan but also to the Habar Jeclo sample.The HJ sample seems to be even more closely related to these Muse Dhariye based on strs, this clan claims to descend from Madoobe Dir Irir Samaale.Perhaps the mythical Samaale, progenitor of the Somalis was a real guy (E-Y18637) after all

NetNomad
01-02-2022, 05:32 AM
The new sample that is E-Y18637* without the Somali flag is actually a Kuwaiti.Which adds another MENA individual to our long lost Somali list.What is interesting this time is that based on his strs he is similar not only to the Muse Dhariye clan but also to the Habar Jeclo sample.The HJ sample seems to be even more closely related to these Muse Dhariye based on strs, this clan claims to descend from Madoobe Dir Irir Samaale.Perhaps the mythical Samaale, progenitor of the Somalis was a real guy (E-Y18637) after all

Somalis seem to have definitely had a strong ancient abtiris culture judging by why only two main lineages are dominant in Somalis. We mustn't completely dismiss the Samaale story as total fiction.

drobbah
01-03-2022, 11:21 PM
Somalis seem to have definitely had a strong ancient abtiris culture judging by why only two main lineages are dominant in Somalis. We mustn't completely dismiss the Samaale story as total fiction.
It is quite strange that E-Y18629,E-Y18637, & E-BY192465 all have similar tmrcas hopefully with these new uploaded samples yfull's tmrcas becomes more realistic

Mujahid Nur Marehan
01-04-2022, 12:45 AM
We have two new samples oploaded on E-Y163949, so please who are they?

farjanomar
01-04-2022, 05:42 AM
I have come across a E-V32 Dir on my 23andme list. Thought would be interesting to ask him, which sub-clan-He said Akisho.
was not surprised because of the oral history. (most likely E-Z21175)

drobbah
01-04-2022, 12:51 PM
I recently emailed the Saudi account from Bariq,’Asir that was very similar to us Sacad Muuse in Arabic and surprisingly the brother replied! Apparently it’s not his sample but his Somali brother-in law who was born and raised in Riyadh.The individual belongs to the Reer Gadiid subclan which is a subclan of the infamous mercantile Nuux Ismaciil clan that dominated Berbera for centuries before migrating to Hargeisa with Sheikh Madar

farjanomar
01-08-2022, 08:20 PM
I recently emailed the Saudi account from Bariq,’Asir that was very similar to us Sacad Muuse in Arabic and surprisingly the brother replied! Apparently it’s not his sample but his Somali brother-in law who was born and raised in Riyadh.The individual belongs to the Reer Gadiid subclan which is a subclan of the infamous mercantile Nuux Ismaciil clan that dominated Berbera for centuries before migrating to Hargeisa with Sheikh Madar


Good to know that Some of them are actually recently Somali. There is a chance the Kuwaiti sample could also be Born/Naturalized Somali Khaliiji.
I think from now on we should take a 50-50 probability (ancient VS recently) of all those with Yemeni/khaliji flags. In my group (E-Y163928/163949) i have seen two samples with Yemeni flags without any other information.

farjanomar
01-08-2022, 08:42 PM
The new sample that is E-Y18637* without the Somali flag is actually a Kuwaiti.Which adds another MENA individual to our long lost Somali list.What is interesting this time is that based on his strs he is similar not only to the Muse Dhariye clan but also to the Habar Jeclo sample.The HJ sample seems to be even more closely related to these Muse Dhariye based on strs, this clan claims to descend from Madoobe Dir Irir Samaale.Perhaps the mythical Samaale, progenitor of the Somalis was a real guy (E-Y18637) after all


They have now been given their own sub-clade, E-FTB35550.

So far E-Y18637 has five sub-clades:

#1-E-FTB35550.
#2-E-BY8081.
#3-E-BY192465.
#4-E-BY8100.
#5-E-FT420077.

eli
01-09-2022, 03:17 AM
I have come across a E-V32 Dir on my 23andme list. Thought would be interesting to ask him, which sub-clan-He said Akisho.
was not surprised because of the oral history. (most likely E-Z21175)

Unlike Daarod, most of the Dir samples on 23andme or YFull are not representative of the clan as a whole due to the fact that several subclans do not have a large diaspora presence. He is not the only E-V32 'Dir,' there are Biimaal E-V32 Dirs, a Gurgura E-V32 Dir, and I also came across a Noole Afran Qallo E-V32 who is ancestrally Dir. It was also interesting to note that some of his other Afran Qallo matches had diverse haplogroups, Jaarso (E-L29); Noole (T-L208). Not surprising considering the heterogenous ancestry of the Hararghe Oromos. In my opinion, it is folly to assume that the Dir clan can only be associated with T-Y16897.

Moreover, much like how the Daraod clan tree is all over the place from an E-V32 perspective, so is the T-Y16897 Dir clan individuals as things stand. You asked a perfectly logical question as to why the Surre TMRCA is so short in the Y16897 thread. Apologies I didn't answer previously. It shouldn't be that short if we go by Abtirsi as the two samples only connect higher up the clan tree according to clan lore. There is every possibility that other Surre samples uploaded might throw further doubt on the clan tree, for instance, if a Qubeys sample is closer to an Abdalla sample than another Qubeys. Also, according to Dir clan lore, Surre are ancestrally closer to Isaaq than Samaron are to the Isaaq, but YFull results contradict this demonstrating how science contradicts clan ancestral myths. The same also applies to Daarod as it would be illogical to argue that one subclade lineage is the authentic Daarod lineage when individuals from the same subclan, Kablalax etc. are present in two disparate subclades that do not connect for almost 3000 years.

eli
01-09-2022, 03:38 AM
Somalis seem to have definitely had a strong ancient abtiris culture judging by why only two main lineages are dominant in Somalis. We mustn't completely dismiss the Samaale story as total fiction.

Much like other Somali macro clan identities, I doubt there is any absolute scientific truth to a Samaale clan patriarch. It is a foundation myth like Romulus and Remus. Speaking as a Samaale, it is something which has been intrinsically part of my ethnic identity, not that different to your own respective macro clan identity.

Garaacad
01-09-2022, 04:43 PM
Most clan identities probably started off real and then became confederacies as they grew in size over time.

Btw any updates on the clan of id:YF94679 ?

Garaacad
01-09-2022, 04:49 PM
Much like other Somali macro clan identities, I doubt there is any absolute scientific truth to a Samaale clan patriarch. It is a foundation myth like Romulus and Remus. Speaking as a Samaale, it is something which has been intrinsically part of my ethnic identity, not that different to your own respective macro clan identity.
Nah, I think it’s a pretty safe bet to say E-Y18637 was Samaale.

eli
01-09-2022, 05:03 PM
Nah, I think it’s a pretty safe bet to say E-Y18637 was Samaale.

Unless Samaale lived close to 3k years ago, I doubt it as the lineage isn't that ancient from an Abtirsi perspective. Also, we do not have enough representative YFull samples from non Irir Samaale clans. Even then, I doubt the results will reflect the clan tree as is the case already with other older Somali clan identities.

Sub sub subclans might have possibly started off as real but I cannot see macro clans being the product of a relatively recent founder effect as the few results we currently possess are anomalous.

Garaacad
01-09-2022, 05:43 PM
Unless Samaale lived close to 3k years ago, I doubt it as the lineage isn't that ancient from an Abtirsi perspective. Also, we do not have enough representative YFull samples from non Irir Samaale clans. Even then, I doubt the results will reflect the clan tree as is the case already with other older Somali clan identities.

Sub sub subclans might have possibly started off as real but I cannot see macro clans being the product of a relatively recent founder effect as the few results we currently possess are anomalous.
Interesting, how old is Samaale meant to be in terms of abtirsi?

drobbah
01-09-2022, 08:52 PM
Unless Samaale lived close to 3k years ago, I doubt it as the lineage isn't that ancient from an Abtirsi perspective. Also, we do not have enough representative YFull samples from non Irir Samaale clans. Even then, I doubt the results will reflect the clan tree as is the case already with other older Somali clan identities.

Sub sub subclans might have possibly started off as real but I cannot see macro clans being the product of a relatively recent founder effect as the few results we currently possess are anomalous.
Well the current tmrca is 2600 ybp but it could be anywhere between 3100 to 2100 ybp and tbh imo E-Y18637 tmrca is probably on the lower side of the range since the upstream E-Y18629 also currently has a tmrca of 2600 ybp.This makes it possible that this was the mythical Samaale.Abtirsi isn't always accurate as perhaps some names in the lineage had been forogtten or omitted on purpose, for example Sacad Muuse and Ciise Muuse according to yfull has a tmrca of 900 ybp but according to abtirsi we should have a tmrca of 600 ybp although if we take yfull's tmrca range of 1550 to 500 ybp in consideration the abtirsi isn't exactly wrong

farjanomar
01-09-2022, 09:30 PM
@eli.

Firstly: I am not one of those, who argue person/persons who carry Non majority Clan SNP/HG are not part of the Clan/Sub-Clan identity.
But, there is nothing wrong in discussing and acknowledging, some of the clan might carry minor Clan SNP/HG or are outlier, after all its
genetic identity not the Cultural/National identity of macro/micro clans.

Secondly: I mentioned the Akisho guy for a reason, if i saw other Dirs like Surre, Ciise, Gadaburse, biyamaal E-V32 i would have not mentioned.
Do you agree that Akisho, Jaarso Gurgura Garre and others are dual identity Clans?

eli
01-09-2022, 10:13 PM
@eli.

Firstly: I am not one of those, who argue person/persons who carry Non majority Clan SNP/HG are not part of the Clan/Sub-Clan identity.
But, there is nothing wrong in discussing and acknowledging, some of the clan might carry minor Clan SNP/HG or are outlier, after all its
genetic identity not the Cultural/National identity of macro/micro clans.

Secondly: I mentioned the Akisho guy for a reason, if i saw other Dirs like Surre, Ciise, Gadaburse, biyamaal E-V32 i would have not mentioned.
Do you agree that Akisho, Jaarso Gurgura Garre and others are dual identity Clans?

Jaarso are not a Somali clan, they are a Oromo-Somali confederation clan. This is demonstrated by the fact you have Dir and Daarod subclans such as Balcad (Daarod), Osman (Dir) and Umar (Dir) whilst also possessing subclans with clearly Oromo roots.

Akisho, are also a confederacy of sorts. They have certain sub subclans which are clearly Somali, however, their immediate subclans are unequivocally Oromo.

The Gurgura are legit Somalis. They are bilingual but were not assimilated into the Afran Qallo confederacy who they neighbour and have retained their traditional Ugaas Xeer and separate clan identity.

The Garre are also legit Somalis. They came under the dominance of Boranas in NFD/K5 but their History is known, so is their Samaale abtirsi.

As for you mentioning Akisho, I get that. However, what I found lacking was the assumption that they would necessarily harbour the subclade you referenced. The Dhulbahante Hayag who does not neighbour Oromos at all has a subclade not common among other Somalis on YFull. You have a Warsangeli with E-M183, this individual's clan also does not neighbour South Cushite admixed Oromos etc. It is a known fact that the Afran Qallo are a confederation of Oromo, Somali. Harla etc. It can therefore be surmised that their YFull results might not necessarily be a reflection of a hypothesised split between Somali and Oromo E-V32 considering the history of assimilation in the Hararghe region after the Oromo expansion. Agree or disagree?


Going back to your first point, do you think your subclade will be the main genetic marker for the Harti clan? If more diverse Harti clans test positive for this within the past millennium, do you think an argument can be made that it is the marker of the clan?

eli
01-09-2022, 10:20 PM
@Garaacad

The Abtirsi I have encountered range from the mid-20's to 40.

@Drobbah

I have taken the disparity in Abtirsis into account. None point towards an ancestor that lived close to 2000 years ago. You do the math, how many generations go back 2000 years?

farjanomar
01-09-2022, 11:34 PM
Jaarso are not a Somali clan, they are a Oromo-Somali confederation clan. This is demonstrated by the fact you have Dir and Daarod subclans such as Balcad (Daarod), Osman (Dir) and Umar (Dir) whilst also possessing subclans with clearly Oromo roots.

Akisho, are also a confederacy of sorts. They have certain sub subclans which are clearly Somali, however, their immediate subclans are unequivocally Oromo.

The Gurgura are legit Somalis. They are bilingual but were not assimilated into the Afran Qallo confederacy who they neighbour and have retained their traditional Ugaas Xeer and separate clan identity.

The Garre are also legit Somalis. They came under the dominance of Boranas in NFD/K5 but their History is known, so is their Samaale abtirsi.




Going back to your first point, do you think your subclade will be the main genetic marker for the Harti clan? If more diverse Harti clans test positive for this within the past millennium, do you think an argument can be made that it is the marker of the clan?

I think imo Harti will be more or less like Isaaq being super Majority under 2 SNPs for Harti (E-Y163949 and E-BY8081)
and Isaaq (T-FGC92488 and E-BY155996).

E-BY8081 is huge because Saleebaan MJs are more like half of all MJs and so therefore more like a quarter Harti.
Plus half of MJs sub-clans have not big Y tested, we don't know yet which of the two SNPs they got.

eli
01-09-2022, 11:59 PM
I think imo Harti will be more or less like Isaaq being super Majority under 2 SNPs for Harti (E-Y163949 and E-BY8081)
and Isaaq (T-FGC92488 and E-BY155996).

E-BY8081 is huge because Saleebaan MJs are more like half of all MJs and so therefore more like a quarter Harti.
Plus half of MJs sub-clans have not big Y tested, we don't know yet which of the two SNPs they got.

A correction to my previous reply to you bro.

The Warsangeli was E-M293, not the Berber E-M183. Sorry for the mistake.

drobbah
01-10-2022, 03:22 AM
@Garaacad

The Abtirsi I have encountered range from the mid-20's to 40.

@Drobbah

I have taken the disparity in Abtirsis into account. None point towards an ancestor that lived close to 2000 years ago. You do the math, how many generations go back 2000 years?
We'll just wait and see when the tmrca gets updated with these new samples cause I think E-Y18629>E-Y18637>E-BY192465 having the exact tmrca and for the latter two having the exact same forming date and tmrca just seems fishy.I think E-Y18637 or important downstream E-BY192465 will end up being the Samaale marker.


I think imo Harti will be more or less like Isaaq being super Majority under 2 SNPs for Harti (E-Y163949 and E-BY8081)
and Isaaq (T-FGC92488 and E-BY155996). Only Habar Awal is E-BY155996+ (HA marker is downstream E-BY75676) shared with the Ashraaf individual.As I stated earlier based on strs the HJ E-V32 sample and comparing the Kuwaiti/Muse Dhariye, I realized is that he will likely be E-Y18637+ and not E-BY155996+.Isaaq might end being more diverse in our E-Z813 lineages. Perhaps the Garxajis E-V32 will end up in a completely different branch from the E-BY75676 Habar Awal and possibly E-18637+ Habar Jeclo.But you are correct that by the sheer size of the Habar Awal compared to the rest of our Isaaq kinsmen our lineage is the dominant E-V32 variant in the Isaaq clan.

Garaacad
01-10-2022, 07:06 AM
I think imo Harti will be more or less like Isaaq being super Majority under 2 SNPs for Harti (E-Y163949 and E-BY8081)
and Isaaq (T-FGC92488 and E-BY155996).

E-BY8081 is huge because Saleebaan MJs are more like half of all MJs and so therefore more like a quarter Harti.
Plus half of MJs sub-clans have not big Y tested, we don't know yet which of the two SNPs they got.

Generally the further back in history a subclan split off, the higher the chance of Y-Chromosome sub-clade discrepancy. Wabeeneeye branch off straight from Maxamed Harti, but all other MJs don’t and come from Aawe. IMO, Wabeeneeye results aren’t representative of non-Saleebaan Majeerteen subclans.

Araz
01-11-2022, 06:19 AM
@Garacaad where do the Wabeneeye currently sit? Under 18637 or completely separate? I am making a big assumption here that most MJ will fall under 18637? I recently recruited a Wabeneeye friend but he is only doing the y37, hopefully he will move to the BigY eventually.

Garaacad
01-11-2022, 11:05 AM
@Garacaad where do the Wabeneeye currently sit? Under 18637 or completely separate? I am making a big assumption here that most MJ will fall under 18637? I recently recruited a Wabeneeye friend but he is only doing the y37, hopefully he will move to the BigY eventually.

They fall under E-Y163949 right now, but that could change with more samples. IMO, if the Siwaaqroon are confirmed to be E-BY8081 under E-Y18637 then most older Majeerteen subclans will probably E-BY8081. Siwaaqroon will probably be E-BY8081 or some unique other subclade under E-Y18637*.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
01-11-2022, 01:35 PM
We will find out. You guys should test Siwaqroon.

Garaacad
01-11-2022, 03:48 PM
Personally I’m pretty sure Siwaaqroon will be E-BY8081 because they aren’t very far from us abtiris wise.

Araz
01-12-2022, 01:52 AM
One thing I've learnt from this DNA journey is that abtiris isn't always accurate! But I suspect you are right about the closer linked groups like Siwaaqron. It would be great if we could test this.

blackflash16
01-15-2022, 12:10 AM
My Nebula 30x genome kit is finally analyzed and available. I connected my account to Y-Full and it gave me a preliminary assignment of E-Y17859 > E-Y18629 > E-Y163928 > E-Y163949 > E-FT18668

farjanomar
01-15-2022, 01:41 AM
My Nebula 30x genome kit is finally analyzed and available. I connected my account to Y-Full and it gave me a preliminary assignment of E-Y17859 > E-Y18629 > E-Y163928 > E-Y163949 > E-FT18668


How long did take you walaal? This Company is the cheapest in the market right now, and i recommend to Somalida on different platforms.

blackflash16
01-15-2022, 02:05 AM
How long did take you walaal? This Company is the cheapest in the market right now, and i recommend to Somalida on different platforms.

I sent my kit in early October. so just under 3.5 months, but this was probably during their busier season so maybe it'll be quicker now.

Somaliguy
01-15-2022, 10:32 AM
I sent my kit in early October. so just under 3.5 months, but this was probably during their busier season so maybe it'll be quicker now.

How is the process to upload to yfull, is it simple?

blackflash16
01-15-2022, 05:02 PM
How is the process to upload to yfull, is it simple?

Extremely simple, it's just a simple button press under the "Deep Ancestry" page in the Nebula reporting portal and it automatically creates a yfull account for you and uploads your raw data. After that, it's just a ~1-hour wait for the email with your yfull credentials to be sent to you.

NetNomad
01-16-2022, 03:47 PM
IMO, if the Siwaaqroon are confirmed to be E-BY8081 under E-Y18637 then most older Majeerteen subclans will probably E-BY8081. Siwaaqroon will probably be E-BY8081 or some unique other subclade under E-Y18637*.

There now is one Dhulbahante who is E-Y163949 positive, but negative on all the E-FT18668 lineages, so basically on the same level as the Marehan and Warsangeli testers. Maybe something like this or having E-BY8081* can happen with unsequenced old Majeerteen subclans.

farjanomar
01-16-2022, 11:36 PM
ooh maay....The Second Warsangali sample has now upgraded from Y37 to Y111, and very likely closely related. with a

difference of 2 (111/109) with the other Warsangali. @Netnomad @Drobbah is this like 5-7 generations?

drobbah
01-16-2022, 11:52 PM
I have two fellow Sacad Muuse who have tested their 111 str markers.The fellow Jibriil Abokor who carries E-FT385910 (tmrca 300 ybp) is a genetic distance of 8 while a Hussein Abokor who has his 111 str markers also has a genetic distance of 8 with me.Those Warsengalis all probably belong to a specific jilib and are probably recently related in the last 150 years imo

Mujahid Nur Marehan
01-17-2022, 10:27 AM
So I should have a TMRC of 300 ypd with reer Diini, as it was 8 generations ago. There is a good chance that the new Dhulbahante will form a subclade with me as my family have told me that my 5th great grandfather and his brothers were the once that established Caynabo town and one of his horse was maned after that town. So there is that possibility. However there is no chance I will be Dhulbahante as ugaas Diini was bah Dhulbahante, and he was ugaas Marehan so clearly he was a Marehan.

NetNomad
01-17-2022, 11:29 AM
So I should have a TMRC of 300 ypd with reer Diini, as it was 8 generations ago. There is a good chance that the new Dhulbahante will form a subclade with me as my family have told me that my 5th great grandfather and his brothers were the once that established Caynabo town and one of his horse was maned after that town. So there is that possibility. However there is no chance I will be Dhulbahante as ugaas Diini was bah Dhulbahante, and he was ugaas Marehan so clearly he was a Marehan.

I don't think so. Most likely the SNP similarity you have with him will be the same as id:YF63268, but we shall see.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
01-18-2022, 06:47 PM
One of the new Dhulbahante samples formed a subclade just further up from the rest of Dhulbahante, it makes sense.

farjanomar
01-18-2022, 08:47 PM
One of the new Dhulbahante samples formed a subclade just further up from the rest of Dhulbahante, it makes sense.

Its now 3 of them, in the live page. https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/E-FT21265/

1 sample remains under E-FT18668

farjanomar
01-18-2022, 11:39 PM
Finally, we will start getting non-Hartis big Y. Jidwaaq/Abaskuul member of Somali Project has upgraded from Y67 to Y700. Nur Mujahid first Marehan and now first Jidwaaq.

NetNomad
01-20-2022, 01:42 PM
I asked YFull why they have British sub-national flags (like Scotland, Wales etc), but don't have sub-national flags for most of the rest of the world?
The response was that they go by ISO 3166 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_3166_country_codes) which has UK constituent countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:GB#Countries_and_province) listed.

Posting this info in this thread as newcomers may wonder about this or those who want the Somaliland or Puntland flags and gobols added. They go by ISO 3166.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
01-22-2022, 05:50 PM
We have a new Bakool sample, clustering closly with Sudanese and Yamen, I think it's the Luway.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y19367/

NetNomad
01-23-2022, 12:05 AM
We have a new Bakool sample, clustering closly with Sudanese and Yamen, I think it's the Luway.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y19367/

I would like to see some Southeast African T samples on yfull. Especially not from Swahili coastals or Lembas (too recent), but from the inland areas that could tell us something about South Cushitic T lineages. Perhaps they have that version.

drobbah
01-23-2022, 01:45 AM
I would like to see some Southeast African T samples on yfull. Especially not from Swahili coastals or Lembas (too recent), but from the inland areas that could tell us something about South Cushitic T lineages. Perhaps they have that version.
Rendille and Iraqw results would be interesting to see as well as those found among some Omotic speaking populations. Although I don't think any of them would be closely related to the Somali Dirs/Isaaqs besides possibly our camel herding Rendille cousins.

Araz
01-28-2022, 02:16 AM
@farjanomar, got your message but I can't respond as the system says I've got to have at least 10 posts to be able to send a pm. In response to your question, yes, my friend will join the Somali DNA Project as soon as he's got his results.

Araz
01-29-2022, 07:32 AM
I grew up in Kenya and I am familiar with the Rendille people. They believe they descend from nine Somali men who got lost and were absorbed by the Samburu people.

Araz
02-02-2022, 05:00 AM
@farjanomar, my Wabeneeye friend has got his results and joined the Somali DNA Project. It will be interesting where he falls. Another MJ has also joined. Both are upto y37.

Garaacad
02-02-2022, 08:53 AM
@farjanomar, my Wabeneeye friend has got his results and joined the Somali DNA Project. It will be interesting where he falls. Another MJ has also joined. Both are upto y37.
What sub clan is the other MJ?

farjanomar
02-02-2022, 03:20 PM
@Araz @Garaacad.

The other guy is Osman Maxmud. They did not put him in a group yet.

I also helped Ismaciil Saleeban friend from 23andme to join, Hopefully he takes Y37 test.

Flub
02-03-2022, 03:37 AM
We have a new Bakool sample, clustering closly with Sudanese and Yamen, I think it's the Luway.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y19367/

Nice to see the Maay lang indicator.

Araz
02-03-2022, 06:19 AM
@farjanomar and @garacad - yes the other chap is Osman Mahamoud

farjanomar
02-03-2022, 08:35 PM
@Araz

The new kit# SI12862 is your friend?

Araz
02-04-2022, 06:44 AM
@farjanomar, he is my friend

NetNomad
02-06-2022, 04:04 AM
@farjanomar, my Wabeneeye friend has got his results and joined the Somali DNA Project. It will be interesting where he falls.

If you can, advise him to get Nebula. His STRs are quite different from the others in E-Y163949. He might end up being E-Y163928*.

Araz
02-07-2022, 06:07 AM
If you can, advise him to get Nebula. His STRs are quite different from the others in E-Y163949. He might end up being E-Y163928*.

Interesting, thanks walaal. I am not familiar with Nebula. Is there a particular plan I should advise him to go with?

NetNomad
02-07-2022, 08:56 AM
Interesting, thanks walaal. I am not familiar with Nebula. Is there a particular plan I should advise him to go with?

It is similar to Dante Labs in pricing, but they have (upcoming?) partnerships with FTDNA and Nebula is more consumer-friendly. The user interface of Dante is terrible and the wait times are very long. I think Nebula is the best budget whole genome company at the moment.

Your friend shows more STR similarities to E-Y163949 people than id:YF066563 does, but something about his STRs seem off for Y163949. If I were to guess, he will end up in between E-Y163928* and E-Y163949*.

farjanomar
02-07-2022, 11:17 PM
STRs are unpredictable sometimes. The only 100% way to be sure is SNP testing (big Y test).
I share with him two alleles that i don't with the other E-163949's DSY488-20 and DSY389ii-30,
but still a difference of three at Y12.

NetNomad
02-08-2022, 08:57 AM
STRs are unpredictable sometimes. The only 100% way to be sure is SNP testing (big Y test).
I share with him two alleles that i don't with the other E-163949's DSY488-20 and DSY389ii-30,
but still a difference of three at Y12.

True, nevertheless at DYS437 he got 13, which seems very rare. What's more, everyone in E-Y163949 got DYS442 = 13, while he is DYS442 = 12. His CDY is also quite different.

Since E-Y163949 is the most detailed medieval Somali lineage at the moment, it would be a nice experiment to see how reliable STRs are with medieval age E-Y18629 lineages.

Araz
02-09-2022, 02:42 AM
True, nevertheless at DYS437 he got 13, which seems very rare. What's more, everyone in E-Y163949 got DYS442 = 13, while he is DYS442 = 12. His CDY is also quite different.

Since E-Y163949 is the most detailed medieval Somali lineage at the moment, it would be a nice experiment to see how reliable STRs are with medieval age E-Y18629 lineages.

Thanks for the advise @netnomad and @farjanomar - very useful. Intriguing results! I will get Yusuf to join this group too. I do know that he is interested in getting the BigY at some stage. He told me that he doesn't have any matches. Could that be because there is something off about his results? Wouldn't BigY show up missing matches? Seems strange as I would think most Somalis would match at least some Somalis...

farjanomar
02-10-2022, 02:38 AM
@Araz, Your welcome bro. Good idea for him to join the forum.


Nothing wrong with not having matches, without big Y test. I myself did not have matches until i did big Y test.
No Y12 match No Y37 and Y111 but with big Y, i have two matches which have my SNP (E-FT81055).

The Somali Samples are still very small, so its ok not to have matches especially without big Y test.

NetNomad
02-16-2022, 03:40 AM
Somali specific maternal sub-lineages seem to also start diverging around 4,000 years mostly:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3a2a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3h2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1a1a3a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M1a1d2/ (American sample is likely Somali, it is from a military database).

etc.

This one is a bit older and likely more around the time of proto-Cushitic:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/R0a2p/

This one is also a bit puzzling, an Eritrean and a Somali with a tie within more recent times (maybe via Afars it spread to Eris):

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3i2a/

Araz
02-16-2022, 06:09 AM
Somali specific maternal sub-lineages seem to also start diverging around 4,000 years mostly:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3a2a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3h2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1a1a3a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M1a1d2/ (American sample is likely Somali, it is from a military database).

etc.

This one is a bit older and likely more around the time of proto-Cushitic:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/R0a2p/

This one is also a bit puzzling, an Eritrean and a Somali with a tie within more recent times (maybe via Afars it spread to Eris):

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3i2a/

Are FTDNA maternal groupings identical to the 23andme ones or do they go deeper?

NetNomad
02-16-2022, 10:41 PM
Are FTDNA maternal groupings identical to the 23andme ones or do they go deeper?

It is similar, but yfull also adds samples from academic studies to compare to.

Araz
02-18-2022, 05:54 AM
Somali specific maternal sub-lineages seem to also start diverging around 4,000 years mostly:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3a2a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3h2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1a1a3a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M1a1d2/ (American sample is likely Somali, it is from a military database).

etc.

This one is a bit older and likely more around the time of proto-Cushitic:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/R0a2p/

This one is also a bit puzzling, an Eritrean and a Somali with a tie within more recent times (maybe via Afars it spread to Eris):

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3i2a/

@netnomad, this is interesting. If I am not mistaken, the majority of Somalis have either L3, M and N with the later two being back migrations into the Horn? I wonder what brought the M and N women back to the Horn and who their male kin were - did they come with them or alone...any thoughts?

Talking of maternal sub-lineage, 23andme assigned me to the L0a'b'f mtdna haplogroup. According to my friend who seems to know this subject, 23andme may not be accurate as he believes I actually belong to a lineage between L0a'b'f and L0f (L0f descends from L0a'b'f), or pre-L0f if you will. I lack two of the mutations that define L0f (13145G and 16327C), probably meaning my lineage split off sometime before the other lineages defined as L0f split up. I haven't met anyone else with this mtdna so far.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
02-24-2022, 12:34 AM
We have a Marehan reer Axned Husein results coming up soon, I'm looking forward to his results. He should score 163949.Im not so confident with the Marehan Mamasane, Celi and Soonfure results.as they were an already established sub clans when the Marehan was leading Gadabursi Sultanate. Hirabu was From the reer Matan Eis Ahmed sub clan or the Marehan known as reer Garaad today, who live in Gedo and Faafhan near Jugjiga.

drobbah
02-24-2022, 01:01 AM
Marexaan leading Gadabursi Sultanate? Never thought I would hear that one before lol

Mujahid Nur Marehan
02-24-2022, 01:11 AM
Hirabu and Ahmed Gurey Hussein '' the Somali '' were both Marehan and they lead the Habar Makador. They are reer Matan Eis Ahmed of Marehan. Their are numerous quutos that the Gadabursi were lead by Marehan and they paid tribute to Garaad Hirabu the Garaad of the Marehan.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
02-24-2022, 01:48 AM
The Gadabursi Sultanate was lead by the boqor Mohamed Duad sub clan of the Marehan, who are reer Sade Daarood. Check out this Sameroon abtirsi they claim that they are under the Gadhasid, Ghada people Sid=Sade.
http://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person=4728&abtirsiLang=1

After the death of Axhmed Gurey Nur Ibn Mujahid who is reer Yusuf Matan Eis sub clan or sometimes known in Arabic as Suha Duha or Reer HodanBari Marehan lead the Gadabursi and the Somali's,

Tradition testifies Emir Nur Mujahid was from Somali-Darod tribe of Marehan"

You can read the journal piece here;

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43581078


The German got the complete name of Emir Nur down saying he is;

Nur Ali Abdullahi of ad-Dhuha Suha/Marehan

Marehan have his abtirsi down as

Nur Ali Abdullahi Nur Yusuf Mataan Ciis Ahmed Mohamed Da'ud Abadir of reer Hodanbari/Mareexaan.

http://www.abtirsi.com/view.php?person= ... irsiLang=1

Notice his family surname is listed as ad-Dhuha Suha family in the German piece and in Marehan geneology he is part of reer Hodanbari

Dhuha = morning
Suha: beautiful/amazing

Hodan: wealthy/amazing (dhulkaan waa hodan)
Bari ; daybreak/early morning (nabad ku bari)

The family name is basically "waking up to a beautiful, vibrant morning" or "morning light"

There's other sources independent of this that are from the 1970s that state he is Marehan. Marehan inherited the Adal Sultanate after the Imam's death. Emir Nur's descendants, the Ina Nur guarded his tomb in Harar to this day.

drobbah
02-24-2022, 05:59 PM
Hirabu and Ahmed Gurey Hussein '' the Somali '' were both Marehan and they lead the Habar Makador. They are reer Matan Eis Ahmed of Marehan. Their are numerous quutos that the Gadabursi were lead by Marehan and they paid tribute to Garaad Hirabu the Garaad of the Marehan.
Axmed Gurey lead the Habar Magaadle (majority of the Isaaq clan) we settled this in another thread using the Arabic sources.Plus most of what you said can’t be proven either

drobbah
02-25-2022, 05:56 PM
Interesting new developments:
-The Raxanweyn remains at E-BY192465* (2600 ybp tmrca) while the the Dir Muse Dhariye & Banadir sample share a downstream subclade with a tmrca of 400ybp
-The Marexaan sample carrying the Oromo variant of E-Z813 is currently situated downstream at E-Y204806* with a 800 ybp tmrca.The downstream Saudi and Amhara will probably have their tmrca changed to a younger date
-The Garre and Kenyan Borana who carry E-BY64848 currently have a tmrca of 2900 ybp.



Somali specific maternal sub-lineages seem to also start diverging around 4,000 years mostly:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3a2a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3h2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1a1a3a1/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/N1b2a/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/M1a1d2/ (American sample is likely Somali, it is from a military database).

etc.

This one is a bit older and likely more around the time of proto-Cushitic:

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/R0a2p/

This one is also a bit puzzling, an Eritrean and a Somali with a tie within more recent times (maybe via Afars it spread to Eris):

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L3i2a/

Somali L0a1d1c (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L0a1d1c/)with a tmrca of 3000 ybp.Also another Somalilander from Sanaag has been recently added as L0a1d1*

Mujahid Nur Marehan
02-26-2022, 03:50 AM
This is interesting.

NetNomad
02-27-2022, 11:00 AM
Somali L0a1d1c (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/L0a1d1c/)with a tmrca of 3000 ybp.Also another Somalilander from Sanaag has been recently added as L0a1d1*

Looks like the proto-Somali ethnicity started around then. I just found it interesting how it somewhat matches the oldest Y TMRCAs of Somalis.

Omaar
02-27-2022, 02:24 PM
Is the guy Dir Muse? great!.
So Dir Muse has two lineages!(FT77328 and FTB35550) . As far as i know, my clan lived in the Southern Somalia for a long time! i'm surprised!
So far Y18637 has 5 branches. At least three of them are from Northern Somalia.
#1-E-BY8100
#2-E-BY192465>FT77328-Sanaag?
#3-E-FT420077>Y229068-Sanaag
#4-E-FTB35550-Sanaag
#5-E-BY8081

drobbah
02-27-2022, 07:17 PM
Is the guy Dir Muse? great!.
So Dir Muse has two lineages!(FT77328 and FTB35550) . As far as i know, my clan lived in the Southern Somalia for a long time! i'm surprised!
So far Y18637 has 5 branches. At least three of them are from Northern Somalia.
#1-E-BY8100
#2-E-BY192465>FT77328-Sanaag?
#3-E-FT420077>Y229068-Sanaag
#4-E-FTB35550-Sanaag
#5-E-BY8081
Yes it’s the Musa Dhariye sample.They claim Dir but they are considered Gaboye/Midgaan (outcast clans) in Somaliland.400 ybp is pretty recent tbh although there are other Musa Dhariye on yfull and ftdna that don’t belong under the same subclade as you.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
02-27-2022, 09:25 PM
The Banadir sample on Yfull, which sub clan of Hawiye does he belong to?

NetNomad
02-27-2022, 11:36 PM
Yes it’s the Musa Dhariye sample.They claim Dir but they are considered Gaboye/Midgaan (outcast clans) in Somaliland.400 ybp is pretty recent tbh although there are other Musa Dhariye on yfull and ftdna that don’t belong under the same subclade as you.

400 years is extremely close. I think there is a high probability he has a South Somali non-paternity event on his abtiris.

Any chance his family lived in Mogadishu for multiple generations?

farjanomar
03-11-2022, 11:34 PM
I think, the first E-M183 has joined the Somali Project. I compared his STRs with the members of E-183 Ftdna Project.

Also, the first HG A member. I wonder if it entered Somalia from Arabia.

blackflash16
03-13-2022, 06:52 PM
My Nebula 30x genome kit is finally analyzed and available. I connected my account to Y-Full and it gave me a preliminary assignment of E-Y17859 > E-Y18629 > E-Y163928 > E-Y163949 > E-FT18668

Looks like I'm now under E-FT18668 > E-FT21265 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y163949/). I'm the E-FT21265* sample, with the other two samples previously assigned to E-FT18668 now in their own subclade E-FT21265 > E-FT22485.

Araz
03-14-2022, 11:43 PM
@Araz, Your welcome bro. Good idea for him to join the forum.


Nothing wrong with not having matches, without big Y test. I myself did not have matches until i did big Y test.
No Y12 match No Y37 and Y111 but with big Y, i have two matches which have my SNP (E-FT81055).

The Somali Samples are still very small, so its ok not to have matches especially without big Y test.

@farjanomar, we now have a new entry to the Somali DNA Project. This is the Danweeyne (Abdalle Nolays) friend I had mentioned to you. He did y12. He is sitting with E-Y18637>E-BY8081 group. We now have Mahamoud Saleeban, Ali Saleeban, Bicidyahan and Danweeyne all matching, but Wabeneeye spun off to sit under E-Y163949.

farjanomar
03-15-2022, 01:53 AM
@Araz.

Yaa i saw that. That's good. lets keep testing as many as possible.

Garaacad
03-15-2022, 01:02 PM
@farjanomar, we now have a new entry to the Somali DNA Project. This is the Danweeyne (Abdalle Nolays) friend I had mentioned to you. He did y12. He is sitting with E-Y18637>E-BY8081 group. We now have Mahamoud Saleeban, Ali Saleeban, Bicidyahan and Danweeyne all matching, but Wabeneeye spun off to sit under E-Y163949.

Nolays is just 1 name away from Aawe the founder of the clan. Looks like I was right most Mjs are E-BY8081.

Araz
03-16-2022, 02:23 AM
Nolays is just 1 name away from Aawe the founder of the clan. Looks like I was right most Mjs are E-BY8081.

You may be right as I think all the Saleebans are Maxamed Nolays. I am not sure if the Siwaqroon are also Mohamed Nolays but I know some of the other sub-clans like Bicidyahan and Idigfacle also branch off at the Nolays level.

Garaacad
03-16-2022, 10:28 AM
You may be right as I think all the Saleebans are Maxamed Nolays. I am not sure if the Siwaqroon are also Mohamed Nolays but I know some of the other sub-clans like Bicidyahan and Idigfacle also branch off at the Nolays level.

Only Idigfacle branch off at the Nolays level they are Musa Nolays. We meet with Siwaaqroon in the Talareer grouping they are Xuseen Talareer and we are Xasan Talareer. Talareer is the grandson of Maxamed Nolays. As for Bicidyahan they are also Maxamed Noolays but they meet with us far earlier. They are Ali Ibrahim and we are Maxamuud Saleebaan Maxamed Ibrahim.

Garaacad
03-18-2022, 12:42 PM
What clan is new sample under E-BY8081* on YFull? He’s from Galguduud.

drobbah
03-18-2022, 02:14 PM
What clan is new sample under E-BY8081* on YFull? He’s from Galguduud.
Murusaade

Garaacad
03-18-2022, 02:28 PM
Murusaade

Very interesting he’s only the second Hawiye on the YTree. The TMCRA will be interesting.

farjanomar
04-02-2022, 07:22 PM
Ramadan Kariim to all.

farjanomar
04-02-2022, 07:38 PM
[QUOTE=Araz;831419]Interesting, thanks walaal. I am not familiar with Nebula. Is there a particular plan I should advise him to go with?[/QUOT

Mujahid Nur Marehan
04-12-2022, 01:34 AM
Does anybody know the new Gedo id:YF102772 on Yfull?

drobbah
04-12-2022, 02:25 AM
Does anybody know the new Gedo id:YF102772 on Yfull?
That's the Garre sample, he matches with the Kenyan Borana.The other Gedo sample is a Marexaan matching with the Amhara.Both basically belong to a proto-oromoid subclade imo

drobbah
05-13-2022, 04:23 PM
A Toghdheer sample (might be Ciise Muuse HA or the other two Isaaq subclans who dominate the region) has joined myself and @Algamest on yfull. E-BY155996 divides in two:

1.A Habar Awal E-BY75676
2.Ashraaf (plus another individual) E-FT239164

There are 4 E-BY75676 on ftdna, 2 being basal (the CM Algamest) and two downstream (myself and another Sacad Muuse).I am making a prediction that this new individual on yfull is probably an HA as on the live tree he is still with us which means he is one of the four E-BY75676+ from ftdna (1 Cm,2 SM)

I'm quite curious who is this individual who shares the same subclade as the Marka Ashraaf dude

Mujahid Nur Marehan
05-16-2022, 03:42 PM
We have a new person caryng a ne sub clade of E-Z813 lineage on Yfull not sure who that person is.

farjanomar
05-16-2022, 10:24 PM
A Toghdheer sample (might be Ciise Muuse HA or the other two Isaaq subclans who dominate the region) has joined myself and @Algamest on yfull. E-BY155996 divides in two:

1.A Habar Awal E-BY75676
2.Ashraaf (plus another individual) E-FT239164

There are 4 E-BY75676 on ftdna, 2 being basal (the CM Algamest) and two downstream (myself and another Sacad Muuse).I am making a prediction that this new individual on yfull is probably an HA as on the live tree he is still with us which means he is one of the four E-BY75676+ from ftdna (1 Cm,2 SM)

I'm quite curious who is this individual who shares the same subclade as the Marka Ashraaf dude


The live page has changed. you and the other HA been given your sub-clade just like Ftdna E-Y219427 same as ftdna E-BY75676. So the new sample
is a member of the other sub-clade E-FT239164.

Bro.I am glad BY155996 main group is finally growing branches.

farjanomar
05-16-2022, 10:29 PM
We have a new person caryng a ne sub clade of E-Z813 lineage on Yfull not sure who that person is.

The live page has given him E-Z21175, the Oromo majority Haplotype.

drobbah
05-17-2022, 09:07 PM
The live page has changed. you and the other HA been given your sub-clade just like Ftdna E-Y219427 same as ftdna E-BY75676. So the new sample
is a member of the other sub-clade E-FT239164.

Bro.I am glad BY155996 main group is finally growing branches.
It might be the other sample that shares the same branch of E-BY155996 as the Ashraaf.It will be interesting to see what the tmrca ends up like.It might be a non-Habar Awal Isaaq either HJ or HY

drobbah
05-17-2022, 11:16 PM
The live page has given him E-Z21175, the Oromo majority Haplotype.
That's not the Oromo specific branch, the downstream E-Y161124 is Oromo.This sample seems very basal (E-Z21175*) and could belong to any ethnic group

NetNomad
05-28-2022, 01:59 AM
Any info on what ethnicity the new basal id:YF103954 person is?

Garaacad
06-02-2022, 02:15 PM
There’s a new Habar Gidir Cayr sample coming up. He is doing Nebula they just received his sample at the lab. He should get his results within the next couple of months. This sub-clan Cayr has no borders with Majeerteen so his result should be representative of what most Habar Gidirs have.

@NetNomad You said you were interested in Habar Gidir results is there any prediction you want to make?

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-02-2022, 06:38 PM
I am predicting he will be 50% haplogroup T. Hassan Dahir Aways once mentioned that some sure claimed that his sub clan of Ayaanle Cayr were lost sure Dir sub clan. Also Cayr live with Marehan in Shilaabo even though Shilabo was originally Marehan Town, nevertheless 50% of Shilabo citizens were haplogroup T. I think some Cayr are of Makahiil origin or Sure Dir. As Shilabo has also a minority Makahiil gacanweyne inhabitants who now claim Ogaden.

Garaacad
06-02-2022, 08:09 PM
I am predicting he will be 50% haplogroup T. Hassan Dahir Aways once mentioned that some sure claimed that his sub clan of Ayaanle Cayr were lost sure Dir sub clan. Also Cayr live with Marehan in Shilaabo even though Shilabo was originally Marehan Town, nevertheless 50% of Shilabo citizens were haplogroup T. I think some Cayr are of Makahiil origin or Sure Dir. As Shilabo has also a minority Makahiil gacanweyne inhabitants who now claim Ogaden.
He is not from that specific Cayr sub-clan you mentioned and 23andme has already confirmed that he is E-V32.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-03-2022, 01:33 AM
Cayr were known as Ajuran until very recently, they adopted Hawiye identity until very recently..

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-03-2022, 04:01 AM
Were EV32 Somali's camel herders in Northern Sudan, maybe that's the reason we entered Horn via lowlands of Eritrea, I wonder how long we have been domesticating canels, and the connection it had with the success of founder effect of our EV32 sub lineage.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-03-2022, 04:17 AM
It's very possible that the many E1b1b lineages in the gulf entered thee thousands of years ago and are not due to slave trade, Its only the past five thousand years or so that the Bab El Mendab strait was formed. Horn of Africa and Arabia were connected through a land bridge, this ended until very recently due to climate change which caused sea levels to rise. This makes me believe that the E1b1b2 lineages in Yamen are very ancient.

drobbah
06-03-2022, 10:21 PM
Any info on what ethnicity the new basal id:YF103954 person is?
Somali-Dhulbahante

drobbah
06-03-2022, 10:27 PM
It's very possible that the many E1b1b lineages in the gulf entered thee thousands of years ago and are not due to slave trade, Its only the past five thousand years or so that the Bab El Mendab strait was formed. Horn of Africa and Arabia were connected through a land bridge, this ended until very recently due to climate change which caused sea levels to rise. This makes me believe that the E1b1b2 lineages in Yamen are very ancient.
It depends on the specific lineage.Some of those young Chadian-Sahelian specific E-V32 or the E-M293 found among Persian Gulf Arabs is more than likely from recent Islamic Slave trade.The lineages they share with NE Africans like Egyptians,Nubians & Horners could be from pre-islamic interactions with the Levant,Western Saudi Arabia & Yemen.The Egyptian Empire and it's domination of the Levant could be a reason why frequently E-V32 lineages (of either Egyptian or Nubian) are found mainly in Jordanian/Palestinians and not their Northern Lebanese/Syrian neighbors for example

Garaacad
06-04-2022, 01:02 PM
Cayr were known as Ajuran until very recently, they adopted Hawiye identity until very recently..

I sent you a private message respond to it bro.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-05-2022, 07:55 AM
I sent you a private message respond to it bro.

Yes the one on ftd is E-BY8081, however the one on Ftd only did 37 markers, but his second cousin on the paternal side did yfull and he is E-BY8081, I don't think he paid the Yfull fee though as he tod me.maybe that explains why he hasnt formed a closer TMRC with other Majerteen on yfiull.

Garaacad
06-08-2022, 01:08 PM
What clan is the new guy under E-BY8088? I’m guessing it’s another Omar Mahmoud since he’s from Mudug.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY8081/

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-11-2022, 03:02 PM
There might be up to 3% of Somali males who carry haplogroup R according to a DNA project, it could be maybe coastal Somali communities.

Mujahid Nur Marehan
06-17-2022, 01:18 AM
We have a new Hawl qasim a reer Mohamud sample id:YF104913 under E-163949, I don't think his TMRC will go up compared to the rest of the group,He is probibally from Puntland or he is reer Ahmed hawl qasim from daqaxbuur District.