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Awale
07-29-2017, 12:12 AM
A while back, probably about a year ago now, I noticed Yfull added a subclade found among Somalis into their tree. This was a subclade of E-V32 dubbed E-Y17859, itself a subclade of E-Z813 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z813/). I quickly noticed that E-17859 was also shared with an Egyptian sample and more recently than I was expecting (~3,500 TMRCA with a formation date of ~4,500). I thought this was interesting but, at the time, possibly just one random sample and it was best to just wait for future results and inquiries but just recently I was alerted to the fact that the E-V32 Somalis at FTDNA all belong to E-Y17859, with 5 out of 8 being pegged as belonging to E-Y17859's E-Y18355 subclade like the sample at Yfull. It might very well be that this is a very common E-V32 subclade in Greater-Somalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Somalia); in fact, it may very well be that almost all of us belong to this specific subclade.

So, this is quite interesting... Especially given the rather recent TMRCA with an Egyptian sample which could be owed to Bejas. Just thought I'd share this for some who may not be aware and feel free to discuss what this could mean overall.

Agamemnon
07-29-2017, 12:23 AM
I don't find this all that surprising, as most Somalis are bound to be descended from Cushitic/Erythræic-speaking nomadic pastoralists, and that implies a lot of founder effects. In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.

Awale
07-29-2017, 12:41 AM
I don't find this all that surprising, as most Somalis are bound to be descended from Cushitic/Erythræic-speaking nomadic pastoralists, and that implies a lot of founder effects. In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.

I've ordered my own kit. I want to see if I'll end up under this subclade too (I probably will) which will be cool because I'm paternally from around northeastern Sanaag (https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Sanaag,+Somalia/@10.2813905,45.1744017,766883m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3d9018aae2ffef25:0xa8f47 9619e7ed150!8m2!3d10.3938218!4d47.7637565) and Bari (https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Bari,+Somalia/@10.1481536,47.9091965,767204m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3da2983597d2bfff:0x7 72f8c63d3c55a9e!8m2!3d10.1203847!4d49.6911374) while one of the samples at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults), going by his name, is from the Haud (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haud) area. If we both share this subclade, that's a decent-ish geographic spread to go by as proof of it being common all around. I won't out them but I think I know at least one other E-V32 hombre on that list and he's from the around Woqooyi (https://www.google.ae/maps/place/Woqooyi+Galbeed,+Somalia/@9.8240509,43.4817014,383984m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1627dd12108c33e9:0x1855d aa9eb6dca76!8m2!3d9.542374!4d44.0960311) so that'll definitely give us some idea regarding the subclade's spread.


In fact the high E-V32 frequency in Greater Somalia, well over 70% IIRC, suggests just that.

I'd personally put it at like 60-70% overall but in some areas E-V32 goes over 80% for sure. One other interesting thing to point out, while we're at this, is that some Luhya samples carry E-Z809 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Z809/), a distinct subclade of E-Z813 from E-Y17859 with a TMRCA between the two pegged at ~4,500ybp. I imagine E-Z809 was probably spread to areas south of the horn by South-Erythraeic speaking pastoralists so that's pretty interesting.

If Somalis really are mostly E-Y17859 then it's possible we founder-effected like crazy for one particular E-V32 subclade found among several our earlier Proto-Agaw-East-South Erythraeic speaking ancestors, or at least our East-South Erythraeic speaking ancestors, carried if E-Z809 in Luhyas is anything to go on. Founder-effects indeed make sense with our ancestors' historical lifestyle and patrilineal way of doing things.

Agamemnon
07-29-2017, 12:57 AM
The presence of E-V32 in Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples in what is now Darfur (namely the Fur and Masalit) suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region. We might want to focus on the branches of E-V32 these guys carry as well, it could validate (or invalidate) this scenario.

Awale
07-29-2017, 01:04 AM
The presence of E-V32 in Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples in what is now Darfur (namely the Fur and Masalit) suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region. We might want to focus on the branches of E-V32 these guys carry as well, it could validate (or invalidate) this scenario.

Damn good point. I figured it was possible their E-V32 was owed to Nilo-Saharan speakers rather than South-Erythraeic speakers indeed. South-Erythraeaic speakers seem more like E-M293 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/) was overwhelmingly their thing when dealing with E-M35 subclades. But it's possible some carried E-V32 like how they clearly carried T-M70.


suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region

Have you ever seen linguistic evidence for this? Something non-North Erythraeic but clearly Erythraeic in certain Nilo-Saharan languages in that general area?

Agamemnon
07-29-2017, 01:15 AM
Damn good point. I figured it was possible their E-V32 was owed to Nilo-Saharan speakers rather than South-Erythraeic speakers indeed. South-Erythraeaic speakers seem more like E-M293 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-M293/) was overwhelmingly their thing when dealing with E-M35 subclades. But it's possible some carried E-V32 like how they clearly carried T-M70.

Possible, but rather unlikely at this stage considering the strong correlation between the branches of AA and the branches of E-M35.


Have you ever seen linguistic evidence for this? Something non-North Erythraeic but clearly Erythraeic in certain Nilo-Saharan languages in that general area?

Unfortunately, no. While some like to point out similarities between AA and Nilo-Saharan (mostly dubious IMO), the latter is a notoriously understudied language family (and many linguists are not convinced that it is an actual language family in the first place). One immediately wonders about Meroitic, but the best work I've seen on this language so far suggests that it was an East Sudanic language. Do keep in mind though that we know of at least one "mixed language" with Bantu morphology and a largely Cushitic vocabulary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbugu_language), so it's quite likely Cushitic/Erythræic languages were previously spoken a far larger area by the past, thus increasing the odds in favour of the existence of extinct branches.

Awale
07-29-2017, 01:35 AM
Do keep in mind though that we know of at least one "mixed language" with Bantu morphology and a largely Cushitic vocabulary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbugu_language), so it's quite likely Cushitic/Erythræic languages were previously spoken a far larger area by the past, thus increasing the odds in favour of the existence of extinct branches.

What's odd about Mbugu is that some seem to suggest it's Erythraeic vocabulary is quite East-Erythraeic in nature. Always surprised me that East-Erythraeic speakers may have migrated down to Tanzania. What do you think of these arguments, though:

"The solution that Mous proposes is that the Mbugu people originally spoke a form of (Old Kenyan) Cushitic but, probably some time after arriving in the Pare mountains (49), there was a rapid shift to a completely Bantu (Pare) grammar (83) The IMb lexicon has various sources, including Nilotic (Maasai), Southern Cushitic (Gorwaa and related languages), Eastern Cushitic (represented nowadays by Boraana Oromo and Dahalo, but possibly closer to Yaaku (Heine 1975)), and Bantu (notably Shambaa and phonologically adapted NMb).

Mous argues convincingly that the Eastern Cushitic contributions are from an Old Kenyan Cushitic source and constitute the oldest lexical elements in IMb. This hypothesis is consistent with the most likely migratory route of the Mbugu and, if we assume that the Mbugu have always had a cattle culture, it is supported by the fact that much of the most detailed cattle terminology in IMb is from this source (43).

Mous addresses the possibility that some of the Eastern Cushitic words in IMb could have come from Taita (Sagala, Davida) which although Bantu has undergone significant Cushitic influence (see Ehret & Nurse 1981). Of the IMb words shared with Taita that Mous lists on p.36 none that I am aware of have cognates in Mijikenda, despite the fact that there has been a significant Mijikenda influence on Taita (Sagala). This suggests either that “the Taita words in Inner Mbugu are remnants of an Old Kenyan Cushitic presence” (36) or that they are later borrowings from Taita which were either taken before the Mijikenda influx or were selectively borrowed in order to ‘screen out’ obviously Bantu words. The first scenario seems the more likely."

?


Possible, but rather unlikely at this stage considering the strong correlation between the branches of AA and the branches of E-M35.

I suppose so. It's also worth noting that the various Luhyas listed at Yfull also show E-M293 which is more obviously owed to South-Erythraeic speakers.

Agamemnon
07-29-2017, 01:47 AM
What's odd about Mbugu is that some seem to suggest it's Erythraeic vocabulary is quite East-Erythraeic in nature. Always surprised me that East-Erythraeic speakers may have migrated down to Tanzania. What do you think of these arguments, though:

"The solution that Mous proposes is that the Mbugu people originally spoke a form of (Old Kenyan) Cushitic but, probably some time after arriving in the Pare mountains (49), there was a rapid shift to a completely Bantu (Pare) grammar (83) The IMb lexicon has various sources, including Nilotic (Maasai), Southern Cushitic (Gorwaa and related languages), Eastern Cushitic (represented nowadays by Boraana Oromo and Dahalo, but possibly closer to Yaaku (Heine 1975)), and Bantu (notably Shambaa and phonologically adapted NMb).

Mous argues convincingly that the Eastern Cushitic contributions are from an Old Kenyan Cushitic source and constitute the oldest lexical elements in IMb. This hypothesis is consistent with the most likely migratory route of the Mbugu and, if we assume that the Mbugu have always had a cattle culture, it is supported by the fact that much of the most detailed cattle terminology in IMb is from this source (43).

Mous addresses the possibility that some of the Eastern Cushitic words in IMb could have come from Taita (Sagala, Davida) which although Bantu has undergone significant Cushitic influence (see Ehret & Nurse 1981). Of the IMb words shared with Taita that Mous lists on p.36 none that I am aware of have cognates in Mijikenda, despite the fact that there has been a significant Mijikenda influence on Taita (Sagala). This suggests either that “the Taita words in Inner Mbugu are remnants of an Old Kenyan Cushitic presence” (36) or that they are later borrowings from Taita which were either taken before the Mijikenda influx or were selectively borrowed in order to ‘screen out’ obviously Bantu words. The first scenario seems the more likely."

?

These arguments are quite sound actually. Even though South Cushitic would make more sense at first glance, there does seem to be an East Erythræic link here.

Awale
07-29-2017, 01:55 AM
These arguments are quite sound actually. Even though South Cushitic would make more sense at first glance, there does seem to be an East Erythræic link here.

Ah, very good to hear this from a linguist like yourself. But on another note, what do you think of the TMRCA with that Egyptian? I recall you noting a long time ago that Yfull lowers the TMRCAs compared to what they might really be (i.e. by 1kya or so)? I had another party claim the opposite recently but yeah, it's intriguing nevertheless. Would be super interesting if they're descended from a Beja. It's somewhat possible this is coincidentally someone descended from a paternal Somali ancestor, though. Some chap who went running to al-Azhar 100 years ago or something, lol... But I sincerely doubt that given the ~3.5kya split from E-Y18355 which 5 of those 8 FTDNA Somalis appear under.

Agamemnon
07-29-2017, 02:13 AM
Ah, very good to hear this from a linguist like yourself. But on another note, what do you think of the TMRCA with that Egyptian? I recall you noting a long time ago that Yfull lowers the TMRCAs compared to what they might really be (i.e. by 1kya or so)? I had another party claim the opposite recently but yeah, it's intriguing nevertheless. Would be super interesting if they're descended from a Beja. It's somewhat possible this is coincidentally someone descended from a paternal Somali ancestor, though. Some chap who went running to al-Azhar 100 years ago or something, lol... But I sincerely doubt that given the ~3.5kya split from E-Y18355 which 5 of those 8 FTDNA Somalis appear under.

I think the issue with YFull underestimating the TMRCA estimates has largely been solved (still an issue when dealing with entire haplogroups though), there's no reason to doubt the estimate for Y17859 considering the time span we're dealing with here. One issue though is that some branches are probably included into Y17859, that's the case with my branch of J1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3088/) for example (check the +19 SNPs: ZS227 and Z18271 are still placed on the same level, while in fact they're different branches the former being the latter's "ancestor"). I strongly suspect this is what we're going to see here as well, and so intermediary branches are being missed in the process.

That being said, he could be descended from a Beja, that's actually one of the best explanations so far.

drobbah
07-31-2017, 09:58 PM
My brother had already tested with FTDNA years ago but we only got a 12 marker test with a generic E-L117 (didn't test downstream).We shared the exact same markers with fellow Habar Awal (from the larger Isaaq confederation) including Cisse Muuse @Almagest who messaged me on this forum (he was one marker off which is reasonable since according to Somali "genealogy" aka abtirsi we share an ancestor atleast 20 generations ago).

I will definitely order a downstream SNP test and will post my result here.Untill now I had no clue there were subclades of V32 lol

Angoliga
08-01-2017, 06:02 PM
Unfortunately, no. While some like to point out similarities between AA and Nilo-Saharan (mostly dubious IMO), the latter is a notoriously understudied language family (and many linguists are not convinced that it is an actual language family in the first place). One immediately wonders about Meroitic, but the best work I've seen on this language so far suggests that it was an East Sudanic language. Do keep in mind though that we know of at least one "mixed language" with Bantu morphology and a largely Cushitic vocabulary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbugu_language), so it's quite likely Cushitic/Erythræic languages were previously spoken a far larger area by the past, thus increasing the odds in favour of the existence of extinct branches.

Are you truly a linguist by profession? I recall someone mentioning something to that effect on another thread -- if so, that's really cool!

I don't have any in-depth knowledge in the field but found this topic interesting. I have many first cousins from tribes in the West/immediate South-West of Uganda (Banyankole, Bahimia, Banyoro) who have closer cultural ties to certain Rwandan ethnic groups (Batutsi, Banyarwanda). Prior to Bantu migrations, I wonder if these western Ugandan tribes might have retained any linguistic evidence of extinct Erythraeic branches.

I come from an inter-tribal "Niltoic" family, my maternal language is Kakwa (Bari), a language considered Eastern-Sudanic and my paternal language is Aringa (Lugbara), classified as Central-Sudanic. Subjectively, I can say the latter is heavily Bantu influenced (morphologically at least), so much so, many consider my surname to be typically of Bantu origin. Conversely, my maternal tongue isn't as "melodic", and is considered more tonally complex with more tenses to make things even more difficult.


The presence of E-V32 in Nilo-Saharan speaking peoples in what is now Darfur (namely the Fur and Masalit) suggests that there might have been an extinct West Erythræic branch spoken in the eastern part of the Sahara prior to the arrival of Nilo-Saharan speakers in the region. We might want to focus on the branches of E-V32 these guys carry as well, it could validate (or invalidate) this scenario.

Indeed, it really would be very revealing to see E-V32 formation/TMRCA dates between the Fur/Masalit and neighbouring Erythræic speakers; the Beja would be first on my list. This scenario reminds me of R-V88 in Chadic speakers (Mada, Ouldeme); populations with minor eurasian atDNA acompanied with substantially high Y-DNA found in neighbouring Erythræic speaking populations:


"The proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7000 years ago from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have resulted in a Nilo-Saharan to Afroasiatic language shift among Chadic speakers (37). However, our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by large amounts of Afroasiatic gene flow. "(Tishkoff, 2010)

Would this suggestion be interpreted as Nilotic hegemony along the Sahel followed by introgression of Y-DNA from certain Saharan Erythræic pastoralist populations? I wonder if the same would apply for the Masalit/Fur. If so, wouldn't one expect the Masalit/Fur to have remained Erythræic speaking. Judging at first glance, I automatically assumed their lack of eurasian autosmal DNA combined with abnormally high "Erythræic-like" Y-DNA meant a male dominant Erythræic expansion into native Nilotic populations. It should be interesting to see what more analysis of E-V32 reveals.

Passa
08-02-2017, 02:42 PM
Two Somalis (kits N86808 and 364958 in the E-M35 Phylogeny Project) have bene found to be Z808+. Z808 is a synonym of Z809, which is carried by Kenyan Luhyas according to YFull's tree (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V32/). The presence of both Z809 and Y17859 among Somalis confirms the essentially Lowland East Cushitic nature of E-Z813. Z813 (formation age: 5300 ybp) most likely originated in south-central Ethiopia and its carriers spread the Lowland East Cushitic languages (Proto-LEC is estimated (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7ikPfRGmoIs/T4Br428CuYI/AAAAAAAAAaU/nPyhkNmsL-Y/s1600/Cushitic+stratigraphy.jpg) at 5500 ybp). More V32 data especially from Ethiopia would help to extend the linguistic-genetic parallelism between V32 sub-clades and Cushitic languages (Proto-East-South-Cushitic looks especially promising, as Y25511, for now found among Nyanza Kenyans and Kuwaitis, formed just slightly after this linguistic branch began to bifurcate).

Omaar
08-07-2017, 09:55 AM
I'm from Mogadischu and this is my results : Z809-, Z808-, CTS3507-, L648-, Y17859+. My next step is to test Y18355?

The tree of E-Y17859 according to FTDNA

E-Y17859 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far one saudi is +
.BY8075

Almagest
08-10-2017, 03:47 PM
Two Somalis (kits N86808 and 364958 in the E-M35 Phylogeny Project) have bene found to be Z808+. Z808 is a synonym of Z809, which is carried by Kenyan Luhyas according to YFull's tree (https://yfull.com/tree/E-V32/). The presence of both Z809 and Y17859 among Somalis confirms the essentially Lowland East Cushitic nature of E-Z813. Z813 (formation age: 5300 ybp) most likely originated in south-central Ethiopia and its carriers spread the Lowland East Cushitic languages (Proto-LEC is estimated (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7ikPfRGmoIs/T4Br428CuYI/AAAAAAAAAaU/nPyhkNmsL-Y/s1600/Cushitic+stratigraphy.jpg) at 5500 ybp). More V32 data especially from Ethiopia would help to extend the linguistic-genetic parallelism between V32 sub-clades and Cushitic languages (Proto-East-South-Cushitic looks especially promising, as Y25511, for now found among Nyanza Kenyans and Kuwaitis, formed just slightly after this linguistic branch began to bifurcate).

N86808 and 364958 haven't been SNP tested for Z809. The E-M35 phylogeny project is going off STR's. Neither did N86808 convert from a genographic test. Something is wrong with the e-m35 site.

drobbah
09-17-2017, 05:49 AM
Just ordered Big Y from FTDNA....Will post my results once I receive it :eyebrows:

Judging from the Somali DNA project I (and the other Habar Awal dudes) should be atleast Y17859

Almagest
09-17-2017, 02:39 PM
Just ordered Big Y from FTDNA....Will post my results once I receive it :eyebrows:

Judging from the Somali DNA project I (and the other Habar Awal dudes) should be atleast Y17859

Should've told me. I ordered it a few weeks ago too, we can finally put this clan stuff to the ultimate test.

Kali
09-18-2017, 11:47 PM
Just ordered Big Y from FTDNA....Will post my results once I receive it :eyebrows:

Judging from the Somali DNA project I (and the other Habar Awal dudes) should be atleast Y17859

Thinking about ordering it as well, how much does it cost and how do you order it? My family is T according to 23andme.

drobbah
09-20-2017, 06:26 PM
Found a Habar Jeclo dude who is Z813 and Y17859-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E1b1arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults

Almagest
09-23-2017, 02:39 PM
Found a Habar Jeclo dude who is Z813 and Y17859-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E1b1arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults

Do you know if he has tested elsewhere? It shows doesn't show Y17859 in the SNP section.

But Egyptian M9165 is a true Z813* being negative for Z809 and Y17859. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ysnp

Omaar
01-27-2018, 06:26 PM
E-Y17859 tree
E-Y17859 egyptian +
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far one saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

A man, who is from my tribe is E-Z808+, while i am E-Z808- ???? E-Z808 and E-Y17859 are siblings. So

Almagest
01-29-2018, 10:10 PM
E-Y17859 tree
E-Y17859 egyptian +
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far one saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

A man, who is from my tribe is E-Z808+, while i am E-Z808- ???? E-Z808 and E-Y17859 are siblings. So

I am sure Z808 is the same as Z809. You are Z808-. Which member is z808+?


And the Egyptian is positive for two extra SNP compared to the BY8075 Saudi. Possible further split

Almagest
02-05-2018, 07:32 PM
E-Y17859
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far two saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

After a very long wait, I am confirmed E-BY8048*. BY8051=Y18355 on YFull.

drobbah
02-05-2018, 07:53 PM
E-Y17859
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far two saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

After a very long wait, I am confirmed E-BY8048*. BY8051=Y18355 on YFull.
Great news! This is a great step forward for not only us Habar Awals but also the rest of the Somali ethnic group

Omaar
02-06-2018, 07:12 PM
E-Y17859
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far two saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

After a very long wait, I am confirmed E-BY8048*. BY8051=Y18355 on YFull.
very interesting indeed.

Horner
02-07-2018, 03:45 AM
Nice to finally see some clarity on E-v32, congratulations. I wonder if the Eritreans & Ethiopians are of the same subclad and if so did this travel south along the eastern Red Sea or up the Nile (then southeast to the lowlands) since the Borana Oromo also carry high frequencies?

Deftextra
03-07-2018, 04:32 PM
E-Y17859
.BY8048
..BY8051
...BY8080 so far one somali is +
...BY8088 so far one libyan is +
..BY8100 so far two saudi is +
.BY8075 so far one saudian+and an egyptian+

After a very long wait, I am confirmed E-BY8048*. BY8051=Y18355 on YFull.

I did the 37-STR test a while back. Haven't checked my matches in a long time, but I noticed today that I match two (12 markers) who both tested Big-y and they are both +BY8100. Does this say anything meaningful about the branch I could belong to? In the E-m35 project, two people who are classified under Z808 are also E-Y17859.

Omaar
03-08-2018, 09:48 AM
I did the 37-STR test a while back. Haven't checked my matches in a long time, but I noticed today that I match two (12 markers) who both tested Big-y and they are both +BY8100. Does this say anything meaningful about the branch I could belong to? In the E-m35 project, two people who are classified under Z808 are also E-Y17859.

No! if you are Z808+, you are definitely E-Y17859-.

Deftextra
03-08-2018, 11:35 AM
No! if you are Z808+, you are definitely E-Y17859-.

That is strange? There are people who are E-Y17859+ under the Z808 prediction in the project. I guess there is still a possibility I could be z808- and E-Y17859+ since I only did the STR test.

Almagest
03-24-2018, 08:11 PM
I did the 37-STR test a while back. Haven't checked my matches in a long time, but I noticed today that I match two (12 markers) who both tested Big-y and they are both +BY8100. Does this say anything meaningful about the branch I could belong to? In the E-m35 project, two people who are classified under Z808 are also E-Y17859.

Depends on if you match them past 12 markers. BY8100 is a possibility in your case but there are participants with GD of 1 to Y17750 branch members of V32 at 12 markers despite being Y17859+ if i remember correctly. So wouldn't put too much emphasis on 12 markers at anything as young as BY8100.

Almagest
03-29-2018, 06:12 PM
Depends on if you match them past 12 markers. BY8100 is a possibility in your case but there are participants with GD of 1 to Y17750 branch members of V32 at 12 markers despite being Y17859+ if i remember correctly. So wouldn't put too much emphasis on 12 markers at anything as old as BY8100.

My mistake

Almagest
05-07-2018, 07:45 PM
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y15945/

Omaar
05-08-2018, 01:02 PM
Great! You are E-Y18629+. Are you that saudi?;)

Almagest
05-09-2018, 05:59 PM
I will upload my results some time in the summer. I think the Saudi is the BY8100 one.i know the FTDNA V32 tree has changed recently but haven’t looked at it properly yet. But nice to see some TMRCA’s that are relevant. Sudan and Yemen/Saudi TMRCA 1900ybp. Maybe the V32 migration into the Middle East came in stages? Some Middle Easterners are far removed from him.

drobbah
05-25-2018, 07:25 PM
I will upload my results some time in the summer. I think the Saudi is the BY8100 one.i know the FTDNA V32 tree has changed recently but haven’t looked at it properly yet. But nice to see some TMRCA’s that are relevant. Sudan and Yemen/Saudi TMRCA 1900ybp. Maybe the V32 migration into the Middle East came in stages? Some Middle Easterners are far removed from him.

It looks like the Arabians (Saudis/Kuwaitis etc) are the ones with the most diversity in terms of V32.Why is that? Isn't Egypt or Red Sea Sudan supposed to have that title considering V32 probably originated there?

Almagest
05-27-2018, 04:35 PM
It looks like the Arabians (Saudis/Kuwaitis etc) are the ones with the most diversity in terms of V32.Why is that? Isn't Egypt or Red Sea Sudan supposed to have that title considering V32 probably originated there?

I think Egypt is still very well represented in all subclades despite the low sample number compared to the others. If we split it into the current three major subclades;


Country BY8125 Z813 Y28701
Egypt.........1.......2........2
Sudan........0.......1........2
Saudi.........1.......3........6
Kuwait.......2........0........2


This is using YFull (I left out TMRCA below 400) and FTDNA. I am getting back to updating a spreadsheet I keep.

NetNomad
05-28-2018, 08:00 PM
It looks like the Arabians (Saudis/Kuwaitis etc) are the ones with the most diversity in terms of V32.Why is that? Isn't Egypt or Red Sea Sudan supposed to have that title considering V32 probably originated there?

I think there is a bias.. more people from the Gulf test themselves because they have more money and resources.. while in East Africa very few test.

NetNomad
06-14-2018, 07:18 PM
Almagest, Awale, drobbah, Omaar et al.

This project has Kenyan Somali genomes at 30x in bam format:

https://www.simonsfoundation.org/simons-genome-diversity-project/

Can we get a hold of it and perhaps analyze their Y files for any patterns.

Edit: found that it's available here: http://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pub/datasets/sgdp/

Almagest
06-17-2018, 11:12 AM
They are female https://docs.cancergenomicscloud.org/v1.0/docs/simons-genome-diversity-project-sgdp-dataset

You can find Simons samples at yfull. https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/3/

NetNomad
06-17-2018, 04:54 PM
They are female https://docs.cancergenomicscloud.org/v1.0/docs/simons-genome-diversity-project-sgdp-dataset

You can find Simons samples at yfull. https://www.yfull.com/samples-from-paper/3/

Damn!

Thanks for the clarification.

Omaar
06-20-2018, 08:25 AM
There is only one E-V32. He is a Kenyan and his haplogroup is E-Y37091. I wonder why it is found in Kenya but not in Somalia!??, though E-Z809 was found in both countries!

NetNomad
06-20-2018, 12:56 PM
There is only one E-V32. He is a Kenyan and his haplogroup is E-Y37091. I wonder why it is found in Kenya but not in Somalia!??, though E-Z809 was found in both countries!

Kenya used to be mainly Cushitic a few thousand years ago (i.e. Luxmanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxmanda) type of people). They don't exist nowadays, but remnants of their existence is found in the genetics of non-Cushitic Kenyan groups.

I think Somali E-M78 diversity is very weak and probably restricted to E-Y17859.

Ethiopia despite having a lower frequency will have more diversity of that clade.

Ra7all101
06-23-2018, 12:20 AM
I am the owner of this sample. E-Y18629

Omaar
06-23-2018, 06:48 AM
I am the owner of this sample. E-Y18629
In FTDNA E-Y18626 is equivalent of E-Y18637. In FTDNA tree E-Y18637 is downstream of E-BY8048 and upstream of E-BY8085.
We have E-BY8048 somali and E-BY8085 somali!!!very interesting.
What is your background?

drobbah
06-23-2018, 09:30 AM
I am the owner of this sample. E-Y18629

Do you have any known recent horner ancestry or are you a regular Saudi of tribal background?

Ra7all101
06-23-2018, 03:14 PM
Yes, I am a Saudi father and I have no relatives except in the Arabian Peninsula

There are samples on the same mutation in Saudi Arabia and I hid the reason I am a company developed African mutation

NetNomad
06-27-2018, 05:33 PM
Yes, I am a Saudi father and I have no relatives except in the Arabian Peninsula

There are samples on the same mutation in Saudi Arabia and I hid the reason I am a company developed African mutation

Do you have any tribal associations? Saudis have paternal tribes right?

NetNomad
06-28-2018, 01:47 AM
I think his distant ancestor was a Somali speaker, it's too close.

Ra7all101
06-29-2018, 12:46 AM
I did not understand what I meant but there are Arab tribes on this mutation and I am from them. They are very large

Ra7all101
06-29-2018, 12:50 AM
The tribes of Bani Tamim, Dawasir, Wars, Alasasneh, Matar and many others. I am also the tribe of Bani Tamim

drobbah
06-29-2018, 01:25 AM
The tribes of Bani Tamim, Dawasir, Wars, Alasasneh, Matar and many others. I am also the tribe of Bani Tamim

I have seen many Bani Tamim kits on familytreedna that had confirmed V32 of various branches.It seems you are a mixed bag in terms of what kind of V32 you guys carry which probably means its ancient and not some recent horner ancestor.

NetNomad
06-30-2018, 06:32 PM
Saudis are really diverse. They have carriers in almost every haplogroup (just see YFull).. Could pilgrims be the cause of this? Besides slavery and merchant aspect.

Omaar
07-09-2018, 06:33 PM
I think his distant ancestor was a Somali speaker, it's too close.
I am not sure about that but there is one guy from Somalia (Togdheer), who is E-Y18629*.

NetNomad
07-14-2018, 09:23 AM
I am not sure about that but there is one guy from Somalia (Togdheer), who is E-Y18629*.

Yeah, just noticed, it's on yfull:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y17859/

Almagest
07-14-2018, 05:50 PM
I uploaded to YFull and as expected Y18629*. Me and the Saudi should create two seperate sub clades under Y18629, will be interesting to see the TMRCA on that.
I am Ciise Muuse from Hawd/Togdheer border. If you know Ciise Muuse, they are coastal (or very close) so no idea why I'm so far south but results show I'm related to other Habr awal, so all good, for now.

NetNomad
07-15-2018, 10:21 AM
I uploaded to YFull and as expected Y18629*. Me and the Saudi should create two seperate sub clades under Y18629, will be interesting to see the TMRCA on that.
I am Ciise Muuse from Hawd/Togdheer border. If you know Ciise Muuse, they are coastal (or very close) so no idea why I'm so far south but results show I'm related to other Habr awal, so all good, for now.

Do you have any SNPs downstream of E-Y18629? Or did Big-Y fail to find any?

I wonder how sub-clades form on yfull, still a newb on this issue.

drobbah
07-15-2018, 01:54 PM
I uploaded to YFull and as expected Y18629*. Me and the Saudi should create two seperate sub clades under Y18629, will be interesting to see the TMRCA on that.
I am Ciise Muuse from Hawd/Togdheer border. If you know Ciise Muuse, they are coastal (or very close) so no idea why I'm so far south but results show I'm related to other Habr awal, so all good, for now.
For those who understand somali history,nomadic culture and the clan dynamics that isn't surprising.In fact another Subeyr Awal clan called the Makahiil which is a small subclan of Sacad Muuse (when compared to the sons of Abokor) are found on the coast all the way to the Hawd.They are exclusively camel nomads and had a feirce rep for being crazy raiders despite their numbers.


Habar Awal are definently all related.All that is left is taking dna samples from our supposed ancestor tomb in Jidali,Sanaag for confirmation.

NetNomad
07-15-2018, 10:47 PM
For those who understand somali history,nomadic culture and the clan dynamics that isn't surprising.In fact another Subeyr Awal clan called the Makahiil which is a small subclan of Sacad Muuse (when compared to the sons of Abokor) are found on the coast all the way to the Hawd.They are exclusively camel nomads and had a feirce rep for being crazy raiders despite their numbers.


Habar Awal are definently all related.All that is left is taking dna samples from our supposed ancestor tomb in Jidali,Sanaag for confirmation.

What's the 'Habar Awal SNP'? Without that there's no proof of relationship.

I'm very skeptical of the Somali clan system.

Almagest
07-16-2018, 09:19 AM
Do you have any SNPs downstream of E-Y18629? Or did Big-Y fail to find any?

I wonder how sub-clades form on yfull, still a newb on this issue.

FTDNA tree is slightly ahead of YFull and it shows a split. I should have a fair few currently private SNP’s considering Y18629 is still rather old.


What's the 'Habar Awal SNP'? Without that there's no proof of relationship.

I'm very skeptical of the Somali clan system.

I think most somalis can be confident they are related on the Reer level which is 7-10 generations back for most.

drobbah
07-16-2018, 09:33 AM
What's the 'Habar Awal SNP'? Without that there's no proof of relationship.

I'm very skeptical of the Somali clan system.
It's not a co-incidence that Sacad Muuse from various branches share the same exact str results and the only other Cisse Muuse that came out publicly has only a genetic distance of 1.

Obviously we can't 100% confirm yet that all Habar Awal share a paternal ancestor untill every single branch of the clan (which is quite large) is tested but I'm pretty confident as a Jibriil Abokor from Arabsiyo I would get the same exact result as Almagest who is from Hawdka.

Omaar
07-18-2018, 08:02 AM
I uploaded to YFull and as expected Y18629*. Me and the Saudi should create two seperate sub clades under Y18629, will be interesting to see the TMRCA on that.
I am Ciise Muuse from Hawd/Togdheer border. If you know Ciise Muuse, they are coastal (or very close) so no idea why I'm so far south but results show I'm related to other Habr awal, so all good, for now.

Yes! You are E-Y18629*. The Saudi is E-Y18637, which is downstream of E-Y18629. It is plausible, that this clade E-Y18629*, migrated from The Erythraean Sea to Arabian peninsula.

lavrok
07-29-2018, 11:56 AM
Do you know if he has tested elsewhere? It shows doesn't show Y17859 in the SNP section.

But Egyptian M9165 is a true Z813* being negative for Z809 and Y17859. familytreedna.com/public/E3b?iframe=ysnp


Found a Habar Jeclo dude who is Z813 and Y17859-

familytreedna.com/public/E1b1arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults

I believe that is my result. I have also tested on 23andme and got a similar result.

Omaar
07-30-2018, 04:31 PM
I believe that is my result. I have also tested on 23andme and got a similar result.

Are you Nubian or Bedouin?

lavrok
08-01-2018, 02:46 PM
Are you Nubian or Bedouin?

I am Somali. What makes you think I was either?

Omaar
08-02-2018, 03:07 PM
I am Somali. What makes you think I was either?
Sorry for my misunderstanding. Are you E-Z813*, ( without subclade).

Omaar
08-04-2018, 01:42 PM
Just ordered Big Y from FTDNA....Will post my results once I receive it :eyebrows:

Judging from the Somali DNA project I (and the other Habar Awal dudes) should be atleast Y17859

Are you Still waiting for your results? how long will results take?. I too ordered Big Y-500 from FTDNA today!

lavrok
08-04-2018, 02:16 PM
Sorry for my misunderstanding. Are you E-Z813*, ( without subclade).

No worries. Yeah, it does not go further than E-Z813 for me.

NetNomad
08-04-2018, 04:41 PM
Are you Still waiting for your results? how long will results take?. I too ordered Big Y-500 from FTDNA today!

What is your clan? Just curious..

Omaar
08-05-2018, 10:23 AM
What is your clan? Just curious..

Do you mean, to which confederation you belong? well, let us wait the results!:)


I'm very skeptical of the Somali clan system.

Administrator
08-29-2018, 01:29 PM
[ADMIN] Several posts relating to a recently banned member have been removed.

drobbah
09-09-2018, 12:32 AM
I believe that is my result. I have also tested on 23andme and got a similar result.
Which subclan of Habar Jeclo do you belong too?

I have seen T1a Habar Jeclo (Xasan Cabdulle) aswell and Tol Jeclo which both belong to the Habar Habusheed branch of Isaaq.

NetNomad
09-10-2018, 04:52 AM
So who is id:YF15261? A Somali or a Saudi?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y17859/

drobbah
09-16-2018, 05:06 PM
So who is id:YF15261? A Somali or a Saudi?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y17859/
I think its a Libyan dude I seen on familytreeDNA.He's a confirmed E-Y18635

Omaar
09-17-2018, 05:42 PM
I think its a Libyan dude I seen on familytreeDNA.He's a confirmed E-Y18635

Yes the Libyan is E-Y18635+, but he is also E-Y18355+, E-Y18629+, E-Y18637+. It seems that, id:YF15261, is another Saudi.

NetNomad
10-11-2018, 11:21 AM
Guys, there is a haplogroup T Somali on yfull now as well:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

From Mudug, I think a Somalia Dir probably.

drobbah
10-16-2018, 06:16 PM
Yes the Libyan is E-Y18635+, but he is also E-Y18355+, E-Y18629+, E-Y18637+. It seems that, id:YF15261, is another Saudi.
Both those Saudis under BY8100 seem to belong to the same subclan if they are not recent cousins.They belong to the Hubaysh clan which is apparently a sub-branch of the nomadic Juhayna


Guys, there is a haplogroup T Somali on yfull now as well:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/

From Mudug, I think a Somalia Dir probably.
Are there any BigY results from the Isaaq or northern Dir clan to compare with?

Omaar
10-17-2018, 04:10 PM
In the new Ftdna Haplotree, Libyan and somali shares same haplogroup "E-BY8085 ". And as i understood, it is their final destination. Is there any pure somali branch?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/E

drobbah
10-18-2018, 03:44 AM
V32 is getting more difficult to understand as more people get tested but I feel like once we get enough samples from Chad/Sahel and Horners (non Somalis) then perhaps will we be able to understand the story of V32 men.

NetNomad
10-18-2018, 11:27 AM
V32 is getting more difficult to understand as more people get tested but I feel like once we get enough samples from Chad/Sahel and Horners (non Somalis) then perhaps will we be able to understand the story of V32 men.

That Green Sahara study (D’Atanasio et al 2018) indicate which branches what regions belong to. Confusing overlap between regional branches may be due to more recent migrations (post-Islam).

I think it originated in North Sudan, probably along the Nile, almost certainly. And then some branches went West, North, across the Red Sea, and Southeast. Not too difficult to figure out.

drobbah
10-19-2018, 03:29 AM
That Green Sahara study (D’Atanasio et al 2018) indicate which branches what regions belong to. Confusing overlap between regional branches may be due to more recent migrations (post-Islam).

I think it originated in North Sudan, probably along the Nile, almost certainly. And then some branches went West, North, across the Red Sea, and Southeast. Not too difficult to figure out.

So if I understand you & the study correctly the three branches of V32 are E-Y25511(Great Lakes region),E-Y15945 (Middle Eastern & Horner subdivided into different branches both around 5.2k) and the Sahelian E-V6873(5.17kya)?

Also does it not make more sense for Arabian V32 to have cross the Sinai instead of directly crossing the Red Sea? I have seen M.E. V32+ Southern Levantines (Palestinians and Jordanians) but not Northern ones while the Hijaz/Yemen have less V32 compared to their eastern brethren.
https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs13059-018-1393-5/MediaObjects/13059_2018_1393_Fig2_HTML.gif

Omaar
10-19-2018, 08:44 AM
"In the same period, we found evidence of a movement along the same Sahelian axis involving the internal lineages of E-M78/V32. This haplogroup probably differentiated in eastern Africa 5.99 kya, and we observed a shift in its geographic distribution towards the central Sahel, where it arrived not later than 5.17 kya. Interestingly, all the central sahelian E-V32 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32/V6873, which is almost exclusively found among the Nilo-Saharans (Mann–Whitney test, p = 0.01). These findings suggest that the Nilo-Saharan spread along the Sahelian belt was probably a complex event, involving different clades and different movements from the lake Chad basin to eastern Africa and back. "

It seems E-V6873 is equivalent to E-Z809, and it originated in east Africa, probably around the African Great Lakes area . It's ancestor, came from the lake Chad basin area. Sampled population are from
1) Ehtiopia
Amhara
Ethiopian Jews
Eritrea/Ethiopia--Tigrai

2)Kenya

Borana
Luhya
Maasai.

3) chadians

Bay the way, E-Y15945 split into two clades that geographically apart and if we find out, where this splitting happened, that Place is their origin.
1)E-Y28701, which is almost exclusively found among among west asians, and
2)E-Z813, which is found in Northeast Africa and other places.

NetNomad
11-09-2018, 08:30 PM
@Omaar,

Did you get your Big Y result?

Omaar
11-10-2018, 07:39 AM
@Omaar,

Did you get your Big Y result?
I received (FMS) results within two weeks, then i got this message at my account in ftdna homepage "Results for your Big Y test have been delayed. We have updated your predicted completion date, and so on.". Then few weeks later i got new kit, i sent it back but i did not get an email from FTDNA that the kit was received. I have to wait :)

NetNomad
11-11-2018, 12:26 PM
I received (FMS) results within two weeks, then i got this message at my account in ftdna homepage "Results for your Big Y test have been delayed. We have updated your predicted completion date, and so on.". Then few weeks later i got new kit, i sent it back but i did not get an email from FTDNA that the kit was received. I have to wait :)

Cool, I hope you get an old subclade (high TMRCA). :thumb:

Omaar
11-16-2018, 10:18 PM
I was E-Y17859 and now i am E-Y18637. But i have this message: " Awaiting Lab Results " at my account in ftdna homepage. What next?

NetNomad
11-19-2018, 10:12 AM
I was E-Y17859 and now i am E-Y18637. But i have this message: " Awaiting Lab Results " at my account in ftdna homepage. What next?

Huh, that means your Big Y is ready because you can't test for E-Y18637 alone?

Omaar
11-20-2018, 09:43 AM
Huh, that means your Big Y is ready because you can't test for E-Y18637 alone?

Yes! finally my Big Y Results Are Ready! My haplogroup is E-Y18637. Analysis!!!? pure somali?:)

drobbah
11-20-2018, 09:48 AM
Yes! finally my Big Y Results Are Ready! My haplogroup is E-Y18637. Analysis!!!? pure somali?:)
E-Y18637 seems to be found only amongst the Darood but we have not yet seen a Hawiye Big-Y results

NetNomad
11-20-2018, 02:51 PM
E-Y18637 seems to be found only amongst the Darood but we have not yet seen a Hawiye Big-Y results

Is Omaar Darod?

At the Somali DNA Project they have a Darod STR cluster. I don't think Omaar is in it?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

NetNomad
11-21-2018, 06:28 AM
E-Y18637 seems to be found only amongst the Darood but we have not yet seen a Hawiye Big-Y results

I think Omaar may be Hawiye?? His TMRCA with the 111 STR Darods is over 1,000 years.

drobbah
11-21-2018, 10:29 AM
I think Omaar may be Hawiye?? His TMRCA with the 111 STR Darods is over 1,000 years.
I think you are right because I just realized the Darood members that have taken the BigY are E-BY8081 which is downstream from Omaar's results.

NetNomad
11-21-2018, 12:56 PM
Are you sure though? Because nobody knows the clan of that guy (first Somali to do Big Y).

drobbah
11-21-2018, 02:18 PM
Are you sure though? Because nobody knows the clan of that guy (first Somali to do Big Y).

Also, his STRs don't seem to be Darod-like. However, this is based on just 12.. We'll have to wait and see.
Well he names his surname as Al Caaqeli Al Hashemi so I assume he's Darood

NetNomad
11-21-2018, 03:05 PM
Hmm.. we'll see. A few others on the Somali DNA Project have ordered Big Ys. So more are upcoming soon.

Omaar
11-25-2018, 07:17 AM
"In the same period, we found evidence of a movement along the same Sahelian axis involving the internal lineages of E-M78/V32. This haplogroup probably differentiated in eastern Africa 5.99 kya, and we observed a shift in its geographic distribution towards the central Sahel, where it arrived not later than 5.17 kya. Interestingly, all the central sahelian E-V32 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32/V6873, which is almost exclusively found among the Nilo-Saharans (Mann–Whitney test, p = 0.01). These findings suggest that the Nilo-Saharan spread along the Sahelian belt was probably a complex event, involving different clades and different movements from the lake Chad basin to eastern Africa and back. "

It seems E-V6873 is equivalent to E-Z809, and it originated in east Africa, probably around the African Great Lakes area . It's ancestor, came from the lake Chad basin area. Sampled population are from
1) Ehtiopia
Amhara
Ethiopian Jews
Eritrea/Ethiopia--Tigrai

2)Kenya

Borana
Luhya
Maasai.

3) chadians

Bay the way, E-Y15945 split into two clades that geographically apart and if we find out, where this splitting happened, that Place is their origin.
1)E-Y28701, which is almost exclusively found among among west asians, and
2)E-Z813, which is found in Northeast Africa and other places.

This internal clade E-V32/E-V6873 is under haplogroup E-BY8025, according to yfull tree.

drobbah
11-27-2018, 01:10 PM
This internal clade E-V32/E-V6873 is under haplogroup E-BY8025, according to yfull tree.
The V32 Yfull tree has been updated although those new kits are still being updated.

Omaar
11-29-2018, 07:16 AM
No worries. Yeah, it does not go further than E-Z813 for me.

What about E-Z21175? it is a new in the E-V32 Ytree and it is the sistar clade of E-Y17859.

NetNomad
11-29-2018, 11:52 AM
E-Z813:
:E-Z21175: Ethiopian and Kenyan? Will most Oromos have this subclade?
:E-Y17859: North Sahara and Somali? I added North Sahara because there is a Libyan and Egyptian with this? Maybe the Beja have this clade as well?

E-Y28701:
:E-V5933: Central Sahel - Chadic & Maban-Fur?
:E-Y17750: Ethiopian? Could those Arabs have Habesha ancestry from the Abyssinian occupation of South Arabia? A Tigray and a Yemeni match rather close.

Overall, it is clear that E-V32 must have been born somewhere around North Sudan. Only logical way to connect these distant groups and with the E-V12 guys upstream.

drobbah
12-03-2018, 03:41 PM
E-Z813:
:E-Z21175: Ethiopian and Kenyan? Will most Oromos have this subclade?
:E-Y17859: North Sahara and Somali? I added North Sahara because there is a Libyan and Egyptian with this? Maybe the Beja have this clade as well?

E-Y28701:
:E-V5933: Central Sahel - Chadic & Maban-Fur?
:E-Y17750: Ethiopian? Could those Arabs have Habesha ancestry from the Abyssinian occupation of South Arabia? A Tigray and a Yemeni match rather close.

Overall, it is clear that E-V32 must have been born somewhere around North Sudan. Only logical way to connect these distant groups and with the E-V12 guys upstream.

Y17750 Ethiopians could also be back migrants from Arabia or this could be a real divide between East/South Cushitic speaking peoples (E-Y15945) and the Agaw Northern Cushitic descended folks in the Highlands.

What has caught me eye is the fact that the Kuwaitis and the Sahelians both share the same subclade.

NetNomad
12-04-2018, 11:28 AM
Y17750 Ethiopians could also be back migrants from Arabia or this could be a real divide between East/South Cushitic speaking peoples (E-Y15945) and the Agaw Northern Cushitic descended folks in the Highlands.

Possible, but I give the African samples more weight. I think E-Y17750 will be a mainly Ethiopian-Eritrean sub-clade.

By the way, for E-Z21175: ERS2065760 is a Maasai (South or East Cushitic admixture?), ERS2065758 a Kenyan Oromo, and ERS2065755 an Ethiopian Amhara (Oromo admixture?).


What has caught me eye is the fact that the Kuwaitis and the Sahelians both share the same subclade.

Almost certainly they are either recent immigrants to Kuwait or descendants of slaves. If Arabs match with continental Africans under 1,500 years that's usually the case (start of intercontinental exchanges). With Saudis there's also the possibility of traders or pilgrims who settled down. I think that might be the case for the Saudi guys with E-Y17859.

drobbah
12-05-2018, 02:16 AM
Possible, but I give the African samples more weight. I think E-Y17750 will be a mainly Ethiopian-Eritrean sub-clade.

By the way, for E-Z21175: ERS2065760 is a Maasai (South or East Cushitic admixture?), ERS2065758 a Kenyan Oromo, and ERS2065755 an Ethiopian Amhara (Oromo admixture?).



Almost certainly they are either recent immigrants to Kuwait or descendants of slaves. If Arabs match with continental Africans under 1,500 years that's usually the case (start of intercontinental exchanges). With Saudis there's also the possibility of traders or pilgrims who settled down. I think that might be the case for the Saudi guys with E-Y17859.
I think the Beja would probably fall under Y17750 considering that Red Sea Sudan sample on yfull.

Y17750 = Beja/North Cushitic
Y15945 = Lowland East/South Cushitic
E-V5933 = Extinct Western Cushitic?????

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7ikPfRGmoIs/T4Br428CuYI/AAAAAAAAAaU/nPyhkNmsL-Y/s1600/Cushitic+stratigraphy.jpg

NetNomad
12-06-2018, 12:42 PM
I think the Beja would probably fall under Y17750 considering that Red Sea Sudan sample on yfull.

Y17750 = Beja/North Cushitic
Y15945 = Lowland East/South Cushitic
E-V5933 = Extinct Western Cushitic?????

I do not think E-V32 subclades will match closely with language subgroups. For example, I think it will be more likely that most Bejas will end up being E-Y15945-E-Y17859 than E-Y17750. The Red Sea Sudan sample has a low TMRCA with Arabs, it could be a back-migrant lineage from Ethiopia-Eritrea.

Also, E-V5933 may be the ''original'' Chadic haplogroup before R-V88 took over (speculative, but probable). The NS and NC groups in Chad, North Cameroon, West Sudan who carry it could be former Chadic peoples paternally at least. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V88/ About the same time period as well ~5000 years ago).

Cushites probably had many different haplogroups (E-V22, E-Y5861 (E-M293, E-V6, E-V42), E-V32, E-M123, T-L208, some J1s).


Some randomly became dominant in some groups while not indicative of different ancestries.

Almagest
12-09-2018, 11:32 AM
Y17859 is overwhelmingly Somali.

Z21195 Central-South Cushitic and small percentage Chad.

North Ethiopian and Eritrean and Bejas Y17750, probably originated in Eritrea. The Amhara is probably assimilated Oromo. The occasional Oromo is Y17750 and the occassional North Ethiopian, Eritrean is Z813. However, expect majority of Oromos to be Z21175. Somehow I don't think they'll be Y17859.

V5933 restricted to Sudan and further west, except obvious Arab slave trade, there are few SA's on FTDNA with this. I am not sure, but I think the TMRCA is yet to be updated because if not BY8025 is a very young sub clade, which would make sense. Also, slaves from Chad? Seems like a far away place to get slaves.

Y17750 seems too old to be linked with Ethiopian influences in ME, suggesting it may have entered via Sudan or Egypt. Possibly not Egypt because, correct me if I'm wrong, HG J was moving into Egypt at the time? I think Y17750 will split into Ethiopian/Eritrean group and ME/Sudan group.

Omaar
12-11-2018, 04:19 PM
I have feelings that, some somali male may carry haplogroup E-Z21175 and they are probably assimilated Oromo. I think E-Y17859 is restricted to somalis, while E-Z21175 is restricted to Oromo. "The somali and Oromo people live in clans with special patterns of marriage and the Somali and Oromo people have complex, interwoven pedigrees.". It is also plausible that, the libyan, who share same haplogroup E-BY8085 with the somali, is somali in origin. His ancestors went to arabia long time ago, then with the spread of islam, he ended up to north Africa.

drobbah
12-11-2018, 04:39 PM
I have feelings that, some somali male may carry haplogroup E-Z21175 and they are probably assimilated Oromo. I think E-Y17859 is restricted to somalis, while E-Z21175 is restricted to Oromo. "The somali and Oromo people live in clans with special patterns of marriage and the Somali and Oromo people have complex, interwoven pedigrees.". It is also plausible that, the libyan, who share same haplogroup E-BY8085 with the somali, is somali in origin. His ancestors went to arabia long time ago, then with the spread of islam, he ended up to north Africa.
I doubt any Somali male will come out with an Oromo marker but the other way around is far more likely.Oromos did assimilate Western Somali clans and the Garre, they also integrated them pretty well while the clans that Somalis integrate always keep the Sheegaato title.We might find Oromo Y-DNA among those dual identity clans like the Jaarso,Akisho,Garre and the Gurgure.

drobbah
12-12-2018, 06:25 AM
A kuwaiti sample has been uploaded to yfull under the same subclade as the Luo sample (1700 ybp tmrca).

NetNomad
12-13-2018, 07:02 PM
A kuwaiti sample has been uploaded to yfull under the same subclade as the Luo sample (1700 ybp tmrca).

Arabs who match Africans under 2,000 ybp is generally not interesting.. obvious why.

However, occasionally you may have genuine old clades in Arabia. Hard to tell when African samples are lacking.

drobbah
12-13-2018, 07:38 PM
Arabs who match Africans under 2,000 ybp is generally not interesting.. obvious why.

However, occasionally you may have genuine old clades in Arabia. Hard to tell when African samples are lacking.

The Kuwaitis are disproportionately over represented for some reason compared to Egyptians,Southern Levantines and even their fellow Arabians (besides saudis)

NetNomad
12-13-2018, 09:17 PM
The Kuwaitis are disproportionately over represented for some reason compared to Egyptians,Southern Levantines and even their fellow Arabians (besides saudis)

These countries have high GDP per capita and for them Big Y is cheap.

Almagest
12-14-2018, 10:53 AM
If you look at the YFull ID, there are two shades. The lighter grey shade means the analysis has not been completed, as is the case for the Kuwaiti and ERS samples. I would wait until Jan/Feb for the TMRCA to be updated.

Omaar
12-18-2018, 09:12 AM
If you look at the YFull ID, there are two shades. The lighter grey shade means the analysis has not been completed, as is the case for the Kuwaiti and ERS samples. I would wait until Jan/Feb for the TMRCA to be updated.

I have 30 unnamed variants from my BigY test results. I found 11 of them from "ISOGG BY Index page". Their position in the Ytree is not yet verified!. Almagest, do you have any unnamed variants?

Almagest
12-18-2018, 12:33 PM
I have 30 unnamed variants from my BigY test results. I found 11 of them from "ISOGG BY Index page". Their position in the Ytree is not yet verified!. Almagest, do you have any unnamed variants?

I have 19. YFull says I have 9 high quality.


A kuwaiti sample has been uploaded to yfull under the same subclade as the Luo sample (1700 ybp tmrca).

Changed to 1600!

Omaar
12-20-2018, 04:32 PM
Is Omaar Darod?

At the Somali DNA Project they have a Darod STR cluster. I don't think Omaar is in it?

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/somali?iframe=yresults

Well, what do you know! "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.' tribe thing is big lie! There is E-Y18629 from Bari region!:biggrin1:

NetNomad
12-20-2018, 06:00 PM
Well, what do you know! "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.' tribe thing is big lie! There is E-Y18629 from Bari region!:biggrin1:

Hmm, interesting. I think he will form a basal Y18629 while the other two Somalis will form another subclade, although not completely sure.

The Dhulbahante and Majeerteen Y111 samples match closely. So I would not say tribes have been completely debunked.

NetNomad
12-27-2018, 02:14 PM
@Omaar,

Are you of the same tribe as the E-BY8081 guy?

Omaar
12-27-2018, 06:21 PM
@Omaar,

Are you of the same tribe as the E-BY8081 guy?

I don't know him, but a long time ago I received an email from a Saudi E-V32, who knows E-BY8081 guy very well. The Saudi asked me if i am ashraaf. That is why i think E-BY8081 guy is either somali arab or asharaaf.

NetNomad
12-27-2018, 06:55 PM
I don't know him, but a long time ago I received an email from a Saudi E-V32, who knows E-BY8081 guy very well. The Saudi asked me if i am ashraaf. That is why i think E-BY8081 guy is either somali arab or asharaaf.

Cool, please do upload to yfull. They have better algorithms than FT. The more samples the more accurate the TMRCAs become. :)

NetNomad
02-07-2019, 11:44 AM
Omaar and others,

How is it possible that E-Y18637 has an older TMRCA on yfull than upstream E-Y18629 (if you click on info at https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18629/).

Not an expert on this, so puzzled. :confused:

Omaar
02-07-2019, 06:52 PM
Omaar and others,

How is it possible that E-Y18637 has an older TMRCA on yfull than upstream E-Y18629 (if you click on info at https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y18629/).

Not an expert on this, so puzzled. :confused:
It is not accurate but approximate. An age estimation of my Y18637* is underway. That is what yfull said:)

drobbah
02-11-2019, 08:11 PM
Do you guys think it's a coinincidence that E-Y18629 and T-Y45591formed roughly during the same time period? Is it safe to assume that the Somali ethnic group is 3k years old?

Farroukh
02-12-2019, 03:14 PM
Do you ask about the age of Somalian ethnic identity or Y-SNP common for Somalian males?

Omaar
02-12-2019, 06:37 PM
Do you ask about the age of Somalian ethnic identity or Y-SNP common for Somalian males?


Do you guys think it's a coinincidence that E-Y18629 and T-Y45591formed roughly during the same time period? Is it safe to assume that the Somali ethnic group is 3k years old?



"In Somalis, the TMRCA was estimated to be 4000–5000 years for the haplogroup E3b1 cluster γ and 2100–2200 years for the haplogroup K2 assuming a generation time of 25 years. Calculations based on a Bayesian coalescence approach (BATWING expansion time) indicated that the growth of the E3b1 cluster γ in the Somali population started 1200 years ago (Table 4) with an initial population size of 1037 individuals. A similar analysis of haplogroup K2 resulted in a calculated expansion time of approximately 3300 years in a small male population of 109 individuals. The results did not change significantly when different prior probability distributions were applied (data not shown)."

NetNomad
02-13-2019, 12:51 PM
"In Somalis, the TMRCA was estimated to be 4000–5000 years for the haplogroup E3b1 cluster γ and 2100–2200 years for the haplogroup K2 assuming a generation time of 25 years. Calculations based on a Bayesian coalescence approach (BATWING expansion time) indicated that the growth of the E3b1 cluster γ in the Somali population started 1200 years ago (Table 4) with an initial population size of 1037 individuals. A similar analysis of haplogroup K2 resulted in a calculated expansion time of approximately 3300 years in a small male population of 109 individuals. The results did not change significantly when different prior probability distributions were applied (data not shown)."

Speculation:

The higher TMRCA in that nationwide study could be due to some E-V32s in Somalia being of Oromo or South Cushitic origin under E-Z21175 (maybe present in Rahanweyn clans). Whereas the most frequent Somali one (E-Y18629) has a lower TMRCA.

Farroukh
02-13-2019, 06:22 PM
Age of ethnic group based on how long is it's self-identity. Somali people are not completely isolated group and includes some different subclades of E-M35. The age of Somali identity could be correlated with time of divergence of Somali language from Cushitic group (3-4 Kya).

NetNomad
02-14-2019, 09:07 AM
Age of ethnic group based on how long is it's self-identity. Somali people are not completely isolated group and includes some different subclades of E-M35. The age of Somali identity could be correlated with time of divergence of Somali language from Cushitic group (3-4 Kya).

The ethnonym is Somali by the way. :) ''Somalian'' is a nationality/citizenship tem or a nonstandard way of saying Somali.

Farroukh
02-14-2019, 04:25 PM
Thank you for kindly corrections

Farroukh
02-17-2019, 12:15 AM
E-Y17859 and mostly the downstream E-Y18629 can be considered as Somali label. Arabian carriers of this subclade have definite recent Somali ancestry.

Omaar
02-17-2019, 01:56 PM
certain snp, the Big Y-500 test says "+" but same snp, Yfull (-)? why?:confused:

Farroukh
02-17-2019, 05:17 PM
Maybe unstable SNP?

Omaar
03-23-2019, 01:42 PM
My mtdna was N1b2. Aftere Yfull sequenced my mtdna haplogroup, they found a new subclade."N1b2a". I have two matches from this article " The Arabian cradle: mitochondrial relicts of the first steps along the southern route out of Africa". One somali and one Yemeni. I expect some progress will happen too in Ytree. According to Yfull, I have 5 private snps and 12 acceptable new snps!. According to Ftdna, i have 28 Private variants. By the way The age of my haplogroup is so weird. It is like, a son is older than his father.B)

NetNomad
03-23-2019, 01:57 PM
My mtdna was N1b2. Aftere Yfull sequenced my mtdna haplogroup, they found a new subclade."N1b2a". I have two matches from this article " The Arabian cradle: mitochondrial relicts of the first steps along the southern route out of Africa". One somali and one Yemeni. I expect some progress will happen too in Ytree. According to Yfull, I have 5 private snps and 12 acceptable new snps!. According to Ftdna, i have 28 Private variants. By the way The age of my haplogroup is so weird. It is like, a son is older than his father.B)

Y18637 likely emerged a generation of two or three after Y18629.

Since there are more Y18637 samples than Y18629* it may explain why currently Y18637 has an older TMRCA, but since it is not possible for Y18637 to be older than Y18629 it has increased the TMRCA of all in Y18629.

There is another new Somali sample in Y18629* who may change the TMRCA dates again with the next tree update (April).

Omaar
03-27-2019, 01:04 PM
I Ordered the Big Y-700 upgrade!. :)

drobbah
05-06-2019, 05:34 AM
Kinda off topic but I've recently come across an Isaaq Somali with a very rare haplogroup E-M281 (E-V16).The guy hails from the Sanbuur who according to the Isaaq clan foundation story hail from one son of Sheikh Ishaq and live in Sanaag.All I could find about the haplogroup is that it is very rare and has been found in Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia

NetNomad
05-07-2019, 11:14 PM
Kinda off topic but I've recently come across an Isaaq Somali with a very rare haplogroup E-M281 (E-V16).The guy hails from the Sanbuur who according to the Isaaq clan foundation story hail from one son of Sheikh Ishaq and live in Sanaag.All I could find about the haplogroup is that it is very rare and has been found in Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia

Interesting, E-M281/V16 could be a paleolithic survivor lineage (like C-Y11591 in Europe). Perhaps this was the primary lineage of people inhabiting the Eastern side of the Horn between 20,000-5,000 years ago.

E-Y18629 and T-Y45591 are more Neolithic/agropastoralist linked.

Farroukh
05-16-2019, 10:48 AM
Omaar, I hope to see your result at Yfull tree. It will be interesting quest.

Khamsin
05-19-2019, 02:23 PM
I learned so much from this thread on Somali E-V32. Thank you. I have been wondering in all the Somali E-V32 are related and it seems the answer is.

I wonder if there is a big MtDNA similar to the big Y. It does not seem to have much interest unlike the Y haplogroups.

Omaar
07-01-2019, 04:47 PM
funny:) It says "Results Completed: 6/30/2019", but nothing has happened so far. Is it time to panic:biggrin1:

Omaar
07-02-2019, 10:11 AM
Genetiker


Y-SNP calls for TAF011

"Below are the Y-SNP calls for TAF011, a sample associated with the Epipaleolithic Iberomaurusian culture from the Grotte des Pigeons, a cave near the village of Taforalt in eastern Morocco.

E-P147-P177-M215-M35-L539-M78-Z1902-V12-Y2863-FGC14377-V32-Y15945-Z813-Y17859-Y18172"

"In 2018, van de Loosdrecht et al. performed the first aDNA tests on the ancient Taforalt individuals, directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 cal BP.[15] The Taforalt samples are the oldest human DNA samples from Africa yet recovered.[16] DNA analysis was performed on seven individuals: six males and one female. ". "Y-DNA analysis shows that the Taforalt males all belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78)."

Is haplogroup E-Y17859 so old?

Pribislav
07-02-2019, 05:13 PM
Genetiker


Y-SNP calls for TAF011

"Below are the Y-SNP calls for TAF011, a sample associated with the Epipaleolithic Iberomaurusian culture from the Grotte des Pigeons, a cave near the village of Taforalt in eastern Morocco.

E-P147-P177-M215-M35-L539-M78-Z1902-V12-Y2863-FGC14377-V32-Y15945-Z813-Y17859-Y18172"

"In 2018, van de Loosdrecht et al. performed the first aDNA tests on the ancient Taforalt individuals, directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 cal BP.[15] The Taforalt samples are the oldest human DNA samples from Africa yet recovered.[16] DNA analysis was performed on seven individuals: six males and one female. ". "Y-DNA analysis shows that the Taforalt males all belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1 (M78)."

Is haplogroup E-Y17859 so old?

Y17859 call is a false positive. All Taforalt individuals are pre-M78 (they are positive for ~75% SNPs on M78 level), consequently they are negative for all downstream subclades.

31404

drobbah
07-02-2019, 05:26 PM
I learned so much from this thread on Somali E-V32. Thank you. I have been wondering in all the Somali E-V32 are related and it seems the answer is.

I wonder if there is a big MtDNA similar to the big Y. It does not seem to have much interest unlike the Y haplogroups.
You might be one of many Hararis who descend from Somalis but have assimilated into Harar over the generations

VytautusofAukstaitija
08-17-2019, 01:29 AM
The Harari urban population likely has a higher degree of E-V32 and T1a-L208, primarily due to centuries of dynastic marriages and assimilation of Somali clansmen into the tiny community. There are also very strong clan ties between ethnic Harari and Somali Sheikhaal clansmen.

I wanted to bring up a matter of much importance - is there a way we can have the earliest tested PN/ELM sample, the 3,100-3,400 I8874 E-V32 male be placed on YFull?

NiloSaharan, I believe you may know a way to do this.

It would be best if they could place all the samples on the paper there, just as they did with the eastern steppe aDNA paper.

Omaar
01-06-2020, 06:34 PM
E-Y17859> E-Y18629> E-Y163928> E-Y163949

Haplogroup E-Y163949/BY203771 formed 1550 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp. Only 32 generations ago, interestingB)
Where this haplogroup originated, east Ethiopia or northeast Somalia?

drobbah
01-08-2020, 12:31 AM
E-Y17859> E-Y18629> E-Y163928> E-Y163949

Haplogroup E-Y163949/BY203771 formed 1550 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybp. Only 32 generations ago, interestingB)
Where this haplogroup originated, east Ethiopia or northeast Somalia?
It looks to be restricted to Darood clan members.What does Darood folklore say about their geographic origins?

Omaar
01-18-2020, 12:19 PM
Omaar, I hope to see your result at Yfull tree. It will be interesting quest.

I am still waiting my FINAL RESULTS from both FTDNA and Yfull. I am stuck in this paragroup E-Y18637*, sinse 2018, that is when I got my "Big Y 500"- results.
Yfull predicted my terminal haplogroup january 2019 from "Big Y 500"-results. Surprise it was paragroup E-Y18637*, exactly as FTDNA alread confirmed 2018. Yfull also received my Big Y 700 august 2019. Surprise again the results stayed paragroup E-Y18637*. Now the year 2020 I am still in paragroup E-Y18637*, besides I have 40 private variants and the age of paragroup E-Y18637* is way older then the age of it's ancestral. Does this sound familiar? Maybe i am impatient B)

Farroukh
01-21-2020, 03:59 AM
Omaar, it means you belong to relict branch with no other living bearers. Let you wait for a while. God knows, maybe someone closer clan will be tested

drobbah
01-21-2020, 04:14 AM
The Egyptian E-Y17859* sample is from Upper Egypt

drobbah
02-03-2020, 11:29 PM
I just noticed the closest str results to Habar Awal and Habar Jeclo E-V32 on ftdna are two Kuwaitis.Perhaps they are long lost Isaaq cousins descended from Berbera merchants lol

Omaar
03-17-2020, 10:23 AM
Just ordered Big Y from FTDNA....Will post my results once I receive it :eyebrows:

Judging from the Somali DNA project I (and the other Habar Awal dudes) should be atleast Y17859

I was browsing through old posts and found your promise which is almost three years ago!. Did you post your results on here?. I must have missed it. 😊

Omaar
03-18-2020, 09:17 AM
What we roughly know now about somalis, who fall under the haplogroup E-Y17859.

Firstly E-Y17859 have two branches. (source:haplotree family tree dna)

1) E-BY8075 (which is so far absent from Somalia)? and
2) E-BY8048, (which has now three clades).
---------->2) a-E-Y18637, with subclades E-BY8085 and E-BY8100. Found in many places!. " its analysis is in progress"
---------->2) b-E-BY202497, with subclade E-BY203771. Harti clade?
---------->2) c-E-BY155996. Isaaq or asharaf clade?B)

Undifferentiated BY8048 (E-BY8048*) is not found anywhere so far!?
I hope more somali people will order " the Big Y test".

Omaar
03-29-2020, 04:00 PM
E-Y18637, has now three subclades 1)E-BY8085, 2) E-BY8100 and 3)E-BY192465 :biggrin1:

GeelJire
03-30-2020, 09:11 AM
Apparently an Cismaan Maxamuud from Bari, Yfull results are E-Y18637 (E-BY8081). Interesting results since that sub-clade isn't a typical result for people from that region.

37016

Almagest
04-01-2020, 06:12 PM
I am still waiting my FINAL RESULTS from both FTDNA and Yfull. I am stuck in this paragroup E-Y18637*, sinse 2018, that is when I got my "Big Y 500"- results.
Yfull predicted my terminal haplogroup january 2019 from "Big Y 500"-results. Surprise it was paragroup E-Y18637*, exactly as FTDNA alread confirmed 2018. Yfull also received my Big Y 700 august 2019. Surprise again the results stayed paragroup E-Y18637*. Now the year 2020 I am still in paragroup E-Y18637*, besides I have 40 private variants and the age of paragroup E-Y18637* is way older then the age of it's ancestral. Does this sound familiar? Maybe i am impatient B)


Omaar, you must be pleased to see another Y18637*, do you know his origin?

Also a first Ethiopian BigY e1b1 project “abdulgader” would nice to know which ethnic group he belongs to.

Omaar
04-02-2020, 08:04 AM
Omaar, you must be pleased to see another Y18637*, do you know his origin?

Also a first Ethiopian BigY e1b1 project “abdulgader” would nice to know which ethnic group he belongs to.

Yes!, but unfortunately I don't know his background. Seems, we both belong to E-BY192465. which is downstream of haplogroup E-Y18637.

Almagest, You and Asharaf individual belong to E-BY155996, which is downstream of haplogroup E-Y18629. Any thoughts?

Almagest
04-02-2020, 11:31 AM
Yes!, but unfortunately I don't know his background. Seems, we both belong to E-BY192465. which is downstream of haplogroup E-Y18637.

Almagest, You and Asharaf individual belong to E-BY155996, which is downstream of haplogroup E-Y18629. Any thoughts?

It must be a really early split in BY155996 because our STR’s are very far. Does he claim Asharaf from south Somalia?

NetNomad
04-02-2020, 12:32 PM
Interesting to see how the Somali y-tree is growing. Cool stuff.

Omaar
04-17-2020, 07:03 PM
Apparently an Cismaan Maxamuud from Bari, Yfull results are E-Y18637 (E-BY8081). Interesting results since that sub-clade isn't a typical result for people from that region.

37016


Well he names his surname as Al Caaqeli Al Hashemi so I assume he's Darood
I suppose, you are correct!. Their TMRCA is estimated to be only a 500 ybp.

sum1
05-01-2020, 05:10 AM
37450


Seems we have a new result from Bay, South Somalia. Does anyone know his clan?

drobbah
05-01-2020, 07:25 AM
Bay province is the heartland of the Raxanweyn clan

Lank
05-01-2020, 08:59 AM
So do all Somali V32 samples you guys know of so far belong to Y18629?

drobbah
05-01-2020, 06:32 PM
So do all Somali V32 samples you guys know of so far belong to Y18629?

So far it seems to be a Somali lineage but there are Saudis from the Hubaishi and Badawi clan who also have it; although they are most likely to be descendants of assimilated Somalis

Omaar
05-02-2020, 05:22 AM
So do all Somali V32 samples you guys know of so far belong to Y18629?

No! This guy is Z813* , in his own words.


Found a Habar Jeclo dude who is Z813 and Y17859-

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E1b1arabia/default.aspx?section=yresults



I believe that is my result. I have also tested on 23andme and got a similar result.


Sorry for my misunderstanding. Are you E-Z813*, ( without subclade).


No worries. Yeah, it does not go further than E-Z813 for me.

lavrok
05-09-2020, 12:16 PM
Yes, I can confirm.

What does that mean though? Anyone have any ideas?

drobbah
06-03-2020, 05:55 PM
There's a new kit that has E-BY155996 which is a new subclade and has upgraded the Ciise Muuse sample to the same subclade.I can only guess that this new sample is Isaaq or a Northerner

Omaar
06-26-2020, 10:51 AM
I think its a Libyan dude I seen on familytreeDNA.He's a confirmed E-Y18635

The Libyan guy (BY8085) and a somali guy match 64/67 (one of the mismatches is DYS449). Their MRCA probably lived 225 ago. The Libyan guy is definitely somali, just saying:)

NetNomad
06-26-2020, 08:04 PM
The Libyan guy (BY8085) and a somali guy match 64/67 (one of the mismatches is DYS449). Their MRCA probably lived 225 ago. The Libyan guy is definitely somali, just saying:)

Kind of odd that he really identifies as a Libyan. Perhaps something else is going on we don't know. Maybe he descendants from a Somali merchant and now he is not culturally Somali.

lavrok
07-04-2020, 10:27 AM
Sorry for my misunderstanding. Are you E-Z813*, ( without subclade).


No worries. Yeah, it does not go further than E-Z813 for me.

It seems to have been updated, and now showing downstream options, but they are in blue and not green (tested positive) like the E-Z813. My page now looks:

Z-813 (in green)
>>E-Y17859 (in blue)
>>E-Z820 (in blue)


I just noticed the closest str results to Habar Awal and Habar Jeclo E-V32 on ftdna are two Kuwaitis.Perhaps they are long lost Isaaq cousins descended from Berbera merchants lol

How close are the Habar Awal and Habar Jeclo E-V32 results?

Omaar
07-05-2020, 04:02 PM
There's a new kit that has E-BY155996 which is a new subclade and has upgraded the Ciise Muuse sample to the same subclade.I can only guess that this new sample is Isaaq or a Northerner

He told me, he is Asharaf Hasany.

NetNomad
07-05-2020, 04:05 PM
He told me, he is Asharaf Hasany.

Are they part of the Sheekhaal conferderacy? If so, then he probably has origins from Harar region as Sheekhaal started from there.

diini95
07-05-2020, 04:29 PM
He told me, he is Asharaf Hasany.

Asharaf Hasany is that Reer Aw Xasan?

Omaar
07-05-2020, 04:55 PM
Are they part of the Sheekhaal conferderacy? If so, then he probably has origins from Harar region as Sheekhaal started from there.

I don't know.

He also said "our 10th great grandfather came from Mecca, his name was Sharif Mahamud and his descendants live in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya".

NetNomad
07-05-2020, 05:02 PM
I don't know.

He also said "our 10th great grandfather came from Mecca, his name was Sharif Mahamud and his descendants live in Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya".

Interesting, ask him to upload to yfull for TMRCA improvements (the more Somali samples, the more accurate it becomes).

drobbah
07-06-2020, 12:56 PM
He told me, he is Asharaf Hasany.
I just mailed my BigY kit back to the lab, we will see in two months if I match with the CM (Cisse Muuse) and the Ashraaf individual.Does anyone know if E-V32 is common among these southern Ashraaf?

NetNomad
07-06-2020, 04:57 PM
I just mailed my BigY kit back to the lab, we will see in two months if I match with the CM (Cisse Muuse) and the Ashraaf individual.Does anyone know if E-V32 is common among these southern Ashraaf?

Not sure if they are similar to the Sheekhaal, but I have been connected to a handful of Sheekhaals on 23andMe and noticed they have some really odd haplogroups (for Somalis) like R1a, E-M123, E-M81, G and some others, but they also have cases of E-V32. Autosomally they are usually highly Somali. The foreignness is usually only on their paternal lineage and only trace amount on autosomal.

NetNomad
07-09-2020, 08:25 PM
YSEQ is offering some of these Somali Y-SNPs:

E-BY192465 equivalents: BY192466 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=147289) and BY192797 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=147290)

E-BY8081 equivalents: BY8085 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=64843), Y18355 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=29861), and Y18644 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=26911)

E-Y163928 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=147292)

E-Y163949 equivalent: BY203771 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=128977)

Deftextra
07-17-2020, 01:36 AM
Not sure if they are similar to the Sheekhaal, but I have been connected to a handful of Sheekhaals on 23andMe and noticed they have some really odd haplogroups (for Somalis) like R1a, E-M123, E-M81, G and some others, but they also have cases of E-V32. Autosomally they are usually highly Somali. The foreignness is usually only on their paternal lineage and only trace amount on autosomal.

Are these Sheekhaals from the South? Sheekhaals are part of a Benadiri confederation in Merka so might be where their odd haplogroup is coming from?

drobbah
07-17-2020, 01:46 AM
Are these Sheekhaals from the South? Sheekhaals are part of a Benadiri confederation in Merka so might be where their odd haplogroup is coming from?
The Shekhaal live all over Somaliweyn, they live in Ethiopia and even Somaliland, they claim their ancestor Abaadir Umar Al-rida Fiqi Umar i(descendant of Abu Bakr) is buried in Harar but the Hararis claim him as their ancestor too.I think they are like a pastoral version of the Benadiri but instead they fully assimilated in Somaliland prior to the Somalis expanding into Ethiopia and Southern Somalia.

38553

farjanomar
07-30-2020, 04:33 AM
Hello everyone

I am new here. Thanks you all for your contribution to the Somali genetics section, i have learned a lot from the forum.

I recently took a 23andMe test and its now in its final phase and they said i get the results in 10 days. So i will be happy to post the result here.

Once i know my Somali haplogroup, i will test for big Y next. I know some of you from other forums., which is a plus.

farjanomar
07-31-2020, 11:37 PM
Ten days of waiting has turned out to be 1 day for my 23andMe results!

Here are my results:


Paternal:

E-V32

Maternal:

L2a1

neanderthal:

75

farjanomar
08-01-2020, 12:08 AM
Here is my Autosomal:

38825

drobbah
08-01-2020, 12:12 AM
Are you going to take the BigY? And what's your clan?

farjanomar
08-01-2020, 01:10 AM
Yes and No

I will not do the expensive one, but will test for Somali SNP Mutations with YSEQ.

I am Harti/Geesi guule.

farjanomar
08-01-2020, 01:32 AM
I will first start with the SNP that some hartis get E-Y163949 equivalent: BY203771.

farjanomar
08-01-2020, 12:56 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/i1ap45/we_definitely_keep_to_ourselves_can_anyone/


Things are getting very interesting guys- Ogaden with T-M184. Thats why imo its too early for Somali Clan HG/Sub-clade.
we need a lot more people tested.

NetNomad
08-01-2020, 01:51 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/i1ap45/we_definitely_keep_to_ourselves_can_anyone/


Things are getting very interesting guys- Ogaden with T-M184. Thats why imo its too early for Somali Clan HG/Sub-clade.
we need a lot more people tested.

This mainly Absame/Ogaden town has 50% hg T according to Giuseppe Iacovacci et al. 2016:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilavo_(woreda)

So who knows.. but I think that the normative lineage of the Absame/Ogaden is E-Y163928 (so far the case on FamilyTreeDNA).


Yes and No

I will not do the expensive one, but will test for Somali SNP Mutations with YSEQ.

I am Harti/Geesi guule.

Interesting, let us know when you get the result. If you are positive for E-BY203771 (E-Y163949) it would be the 4th direct Harti subclan which is.

farjanomar
08-02-2020, 12:23 AM
This mainly Absame/Ogaden town has 50% hg T according to Giuseppe Iacovacci et al. 2016:

That's very interesting- Ogaden are known to have intagreted a lot of People, its not even a secret, hense the Joke (Somali and Ogadanis are equel in size)

Can you send the link for the research?

farjanomar
08-02-2020, 12:24 AM
"Interesting, let us know when you get the result. If you are positive for E-BY203771 (E-Y163949) it would be the 4th direct Harti subclan which is."

I will as soon as i get it inshaAllaah

farjanomar
08-02-2020, 02:20 AM
@[email protected]@Omaar

I have just ordered YSEQ for Somali SNPs E-Y163949 and E-BY203771.

drobbah
08-13-2020, 11:35 PM
Already got my Y-111 but still waiting for my Y-700 results, in meantime I joined Somali ftdna group

farjanomar
08-14-2020, 08:07 AM
Cool. What sub clade are you now at Y-111?

drobbah
08-14-2020, 10:39 AM
Cool. What sub clade are you now at Y-111?
They still have me at E-M35 for some reason.If you are on the project page my kit# is IN89257

farjanomar
08-16-2020, 09:04 AM
After waiting for 2 weeks, i received my Yseq test kit. their office in is Germany, so i have to send it back to Germany.


39014

farjanomar
08-16-2020, 09:07 AM
I send it express so that they get it quick. Monday or Tuesday.

farjanomar
08-18-2020, 02:48 AM
Hi guys. I did send my YSEQ kit back today, although international express shipping from the US is very expensive, i still paid
so that i don't have to wait for up 2 weeks for the regular service. It will 2-3 days.

farjanomar
08-18-2020, 03:00 AM
So guys, i have a question for you.

What chances are there, that there will be more sub clades of E-Y18629? other than the 3 we have now.

(E-Y163928, E-Y18637 BY155996)

Farroukh
08-18-2020, 04:11 AM
Farjanomar, such old clade as E-V32 has many uncovered downstream branches. If you involve to testing many our Somalian brothers we see much interesting history for all E-M35 world :)

Good luck and keep us updated

farjanomar
08-19-2020, 11:48 PM
This morning i got an Email that YSEQ has received my kit and is under process.

farjanomar
08-27-2020, 11:29 PM
Neanderthal:


I don't know if you guys noticed or are aware of, that their is a big difference btw Somali Men And Women, when it comes to Neanderthal Variants.

I saw that Somali Women were scoring 100-127 and Somali Men are mostly getting under 100. I saw in my 23andme relatives and, also 23andme

forum, Somali Results. Does anyone know why?

Farroukh
08-28-2020, 04:28 AM
Do you mean Neanderthal autosomal components prevail among Somalian women but not men?
If so its just a case, not system and not mtDNA connected Neanderthal gene transfer.

farjanomar
09-05-2020, 02:59 AM
My YSEQ Somali SNPs results has arrived:



Detailed Invoice:
Date Ordered: Sunday 02 August, 2020

The comments for your order are

Your results (YSEQ ID 25105) have been posted:
[url]https://

Quick results summary:
Y163928 T+
BY203771 C+



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Delivered

drobbah
09-05-2020, 03:04 AM
Neanderthal:


I don't know if you guys noticed or are aware of, that their is a big difference btw Somali Men And Women, when it comes to Neanderthal Variants.

I saw that Somali Women were scoring 100-127 and Somali Men are mostly getting under 100. I saw in my 23andme relatives and, also 23andme

forum, Somali Results. Does anyone know why?

Many of my Somali matches and myself score over 100 neanderthal variants on 23andme.There is no major difference between the genders

NetNomad
09-05-2020, 10:57 AM
My YSEQ Somali SNPs results has arrived:


Detailed Invoice:
Date Ordered: Sunday 02 August, 2020

The comments for your order are

Your results (YSEQ ID 25105) have been posted:
[url]https://

Quick results summary:
Y163928 T+
BY203771 C+



Your order has been updated to the following status.

New status: Delivered

Quite interesting that you managed to select the correct SNPs before ever doing a Big or Full Y test. This shows that there is some truth to Somali clans and it isn't just random luck. :P

farjanomar
09-06-2020, 07:42 AM
NetNomad:


Do you think, we should incourage , more Somali Yseq tests. A lot of other nationalities are doing it. Its a cheap way to know, one's SNP.

A lot Somalis already know they are E-V32 and T1a through 23andMe.

NetNomad
09-06-2020, 09:35 AM
NetNomad:


Do you think, we should incourage , more Somali Yseq tests. A lot of other nationalities are doing it. Its a cheap way to know, one's SNP.

A lot Somalis already know they are E-V32 and T1a through 23andMe.

Perhaps for Hartis there is sufficient data for which SNPs to test (these three subgroups should capture almost all):

* E-Y163928 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=147292) & E-Y163949 equivalent: E-BY203771 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=128977).
* E-BY8081 equivalents: E-BY8085 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=64843), E-Y18355 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=29861), and E-Y18644 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=26911).
* J-ZS5383 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=80717).

But for other Somalis, I'd suggest more of them first take a Big Y or some other kind of WGS test because not enough subclades are known there.

farjanomar
09-12-2020, 07:45 AM
@NetNomad. Haha, Good for me that, i hit the goal with my first test. I was lucky to have chosen the right SNPs for the test.

Yeah, I had to choose btw the two Harti Clades tested so far, i chose the one with the most Harti results. (BY203771).

farjanomar
09-16-2020, 09:05 AM
Hi-guys. This place is dry nowadays:laugh.

I am trying to get on Yfull list, and transfer my YSEQ results, but need a little help. Couldn't find any help online, so maybe you can help.

So, #1. I went to sign up on YFULL site, but, i could not, because they wanted the BAM file before i could sign with them.

#2. I went to YSEQ site, and, they said, i just needed to sign up and they will do automatically, so they said i should only give

YSEQ ID on YFULL form. The problem is they did not give the link to the YFULlL form, and the regular form does not

have that option.

@NetNomad @farroukh @Omaar @drobbah

NetNomad
09-16-2020, 09:17 AM
Hi-guys. This place is dry nowadays:laugh.

I am trying to get on Yfull list, and transfer my YSEQ results, but need a little help. Couldn't find any help online, so maybe you can help.

So, #1. I went to sign up on YFULL site, but, i could not, because they wanted the BAM file before i could sign with them.

#2. I went to YSEQ site, and, they said, i just needed to sign up and they will do automatically, so they said i should only give

YSEQ ID on YFULL form. The problem is they did not give the link to the YFULlL form, and the regular form does not

have that option.

@NetNomad @farroukh @Omaar @drobbah

YFull is only for whole genome sequencing of the Y-Chromosome. What you tested with at YSeq is just a SNP test. Very different things. You can't upload to YFull with just YSeq SNP test.

drobbah
10-02-2020, 06:13 PM
Just got my subclade assigned even though ftdna's lab is saying they are still analyzing. My subclade as of right now is E-BY155996, which is the same as the Cisse Muuse which makes sense I'm Sacad Muuse.I think my final result will be a subclade that both me and the CM share to the exclusion of the Ashraaf individual

hartaisarlag
10-02-2020, 06:17 PM
Just got my subclade assigned even though ftdna's lab is saying they are still analyzing. My subclade as of right now is E-BY155996, which is the same as the Cisse Muuse which makes sense I'm Sacad Muuse.I think my final result will be a subclade that both me and the CM share to the exclusion of the Ashraaf individual

Is this Big Y? If so, what batch are you in?

drobbah
10-02-2020, 06:23 PM
Is this Big Y? If so, what batch are you in?
My batch is 1109, my results have been delayed by another two weeks.

drobbah
10-02-2020, 11:14 PM
My batch is 1109, my results have been delayed by another two weeks.
Guess I was wrong, E-BY155996 is my terminal snp

farjanomar
10-03-2020, 05:34 AM
Congrats bro. @drobbar

How many in you group are waiting for Big Y results, except you and the CM guy? I see a lot of red in the group.

drobbah
10-03-2020, 05:39 AM
Congrats bro.

How many in you group are waiting for Big results, except you and the CM guy? I see a lot of red in the group.
Don't know the other Habar Awal in the group so I wouldn't know.Honestly I don't think their results will be different from mine considering they are all Sacad Muuse with similar str results.

farjanomar
10-03-2020, 05:54 AM
I have also joined FTDNA Somali project. They said, i could transfer my YSEQ result, if i joined and did Y12 marker basic test.

They received my kit and are processing now.

NetNomad
10-03-2020, 12:52 PM
Don't know the other Habar Awal in the group so I wouldn't know.Honestly I don't think their results will be different from mine considering they are all Sacad Muuse with similar str results.

Try to upload to yfull if you can. It usually takes weeks before their analysis is finished. The sooner the better. :)

drobbah
10-04-2020, 10:29 PM
Try to upload to yfull if you can. It usually takes weeks before their analysis is finished. The sooner the better. :)
Just uploaded it today.The only benefit I saw in uploading was checking the tmrca between me and the CM sample, hopefully the tmrca matches our abtrisi (genealogy) which could be between 400-550 years ago!

farjanomar
10-05-2020, 05:08 AM
@drobbar. Congrats!

So, your are the new Kit and the CM with Somali flag. all under E-Y18629.

drobbah
10-05-2020, 05:17 AM
@drobbar. Congrats!

So, your are the new Kit and the CM with Somali flag. all under E-Y18629.
Yes I'm the new kit but I think once they are done processing my bam, they will assign a new subclade.

farjanomar
10-05-2020, 11:54 PM
@drobbar

It looks like you guys are going to have, your own E-Isaaq Somali Sub-Clade. Do you know of any other Clan that share, the Sub-Clade?

drobbah
10-06-2020, 02:56 AM
@drobbar

It looks like you guys are going to have, your own E-Isaaq Somali Sub-Clade. Do you know of any other Clan that share, the Sub-Clade?
There's a Habar Jeclo who took the BigY but he is Z813* and according to some on this forum the only guy who shares the same clade as us Habar Awal seems to be an Ashraaf.Don't understand why he's related to us HA tho, historically the two clans had no relations with each other.

drobbah
10-07-2020, 12:37 AM
There's a Habar Jeclo who took the BigY but he is Z813* and according to some on this forum the only guy who shares the same clade as us Habar Awal seems to be an Ashraaf.Don't understand why he's related to us HA tho, historically the two clans had no relations with each other.
Seems ftdna is updating their tree, both me and the CM has been assigned E-BY75676 which is downstream of the previous clade that we shared with the Ashraaf individual.

farjanomar
10-07-2020, 04:13 AM
Congrats bro! Just saw you big Y Update. It took you and others a lot of time, to get to this point. We need to keep growing the Somali Big Y. list.

@drobbar

drobbah
10-08-2020, 01:13 AM
Congrats bro! Just saw you big Y Update. It took you and others a lot of time, to get to this point. We need to keep growing the Somali Big Y. list.

@drobbah
Now we need more BigY results from the smaller clans of Somaliweyn not just from the major ones in order to fully understand our origins and how we became the Somali ethnic group.

farjanomar
10-08-2020, 04:18 AM
Now we need more BigY results from the smaller clans of Somaliweyn not just from the major ones in order to fully understand our origins and how we became the Somali ethnic group.



Very good idea bro. That's one of the main reasons we join forums like this. One reason enough Somalis don't take the big Y is that their's no place, where
our People can get information about the benefits of big Y testing and where to go do it. Its not only Money, especially, now yearly discounts with Dante and
Ftdna.

I have like almost 500 DNA 23andMe relatives, 75-90% Somalis. So, some of them i am sure will like to to take Big Y tests, if they
can get enough information.

farjanomar
10-08-2020, 04:52 AM
Somali forums like FTDNA Somali project and Yfull are only for members who have paid for their Services. One cannot go there for advice.

So, my advice today is, it's possible to create a Anthrogenica sticky thread, where we can direct our People and give Big Y testing information.

@[email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected]@Ga [email protected]@[email protected]

lavrok
10-09-2020, 10:55 AM
There's a Habar Jeclo who took the BigY but he is Z813* and according to some on this forum the only guy who shares the same clade as us Habar Awal seems to be an Ashraaf.Don't understand why he's related to us HA tho, historically the two clans had no relations with each other.

I dont know if you were referring to my result there, but just to clarify, I did not do the BigY, I've used other services (e.g. 23andme) and uploaded to FTDNA. I might consider the Big Y if I catch it on a discount.

If you were referring to other HJ results, could you give us more information on it?

I have asked you this previously but perhaps you did not see it, I was wondering how close the Isaaq E results are so far?

drobbah
10-09-2020, 10:59 AM
I dont know if you were referring to my result there, but just to clarify, I did not do the BigY, I've used other services (e.g. 23andme) and uploaded to FTDNA. I might consider the Big Y if I catch it on a discount.

If you were referring to other HJ results, could you give us more information on it?

I have asked you this previously but perhaps you did not see it, I was wondering how close the Isaaq E results are so far?
Are you the E-Z813 sample or is that another HJ?

lavrok
10-09-2020, 11:05 AM
Are you the E-Z813 sample or is that another HJ?

I am the E-Z813 sample.

drobbah
10-09-2020, 11:29 AM
I am the E-Z813 sample.
We need more Arap and HJ like yourself to take the bigY but as of now based on str, I think you will end up E-BY155996 with possibly a new subclade.

lavrok
10-09-2020, 12:43 PM
We need more Arap and HJ like yourself to take the bigY but as of now based on str, I think you will end up E-BY155996 with possibly a new subclade.

I thought the HJ and HA E results would be closer than that, what makes you think the HJ E will be E-BY155996?

One Arap result I am aware of appears to be E-M78.

drobbah
10-09-2020, 12:51 PM
I thought the HJ and HA E results would be closer than that, what makes you think the HJ E will be E-BY155996?

One Arap result I am aware of appears to be E-M78.
Your str results are more similar to us HA than the Ashraaf individual and he's also E-BY155996. I don't think you'll get our HA downstream clade though, since it probably goes back to a very recent ancestor in the last 500 years for me and the CM.It's just an educated guess walaal

lavrok
10-09-2020, 12:59 PM
Your str results are more similar to us HA than the Ashraaf individual and he's also E-BY155996. I don't think you'll get our HA downstream clade though, since it probably goes back to a very recent ancestor in the last 500 years for me and the CM.It's just an educated guess walaal

This is all very interesting. Each new result adds more intrigue. Just the other week a Garxajis result came online on 23andme and its E-V32. I was under the impression that Garxajis were majority T, so was very surprised by it.

drobbah
10-09-2020, 09:57 PM
This is all very interesting. Each new result adds more intrigue. Just the other week a Garxajis result came online on 23andme and its E-V32. I was under the impression that Garxajis were majority T, so was very surprised by it.
I heard about those results.They are Eastern HY so it could be a possibility of Harti being incorporated into their clan.The same goes for the Warsengsli T-M70 results who are probably assimilated local Sanaag Dir or Isaaqs.

lavrok
10-09-2020, 10:30 PM
I heard about those results.They are Eastern HY so it could be a possibility of Harti being incorporated into their clan.The same goes for the Warsengsli T-M70 results who are probably assimilated local Sanaag Dir or Isaaqs.

The most recent Garxajis E-v32 result is actually an Eidagala not Habar Yonis, so doubt this is a case of Harti being incorporated.

farjanomar
10-09-2020, 11:25 PM
@Iavrok what is your kit #?

drobbah
10-09-2020, 11:35 PM
The most recent Garxajis E-v32 result is actually an Eidagala not Habar Yonis, so doubt this is a case of Harti being incorporated.
Very interesting! I hope the brother takes the BigY

farjanomar
10-10-2020, 12:04 AM
Minority Haplogroup in Clans, could be from a lot places. Imo, i think a lot could be adopted Maternal relatives Children. They all raised with
adopting families Lineage. Even today, we see some of those People today.

drobbah
10-10-2020, 12:08 AM
I have a theory that E-BY155996 will end up being the subclade of E-V32 positive Dirs.It also explains how the Ashraaf has the subclade aswell

farjanomar
10-10-2020, 03:40 AM
Bro, what's the Ashraaf kit #?

drobbah
10-10-2020, 04:22 AM
Check the E-M35 project, he's there

drobbah
10-12-2020, 06:20 AM
I'm on yfull now and my tmrca with the other HA looks massive...

Edit: Apparently age estimation is still in progress

Almagest
10-12-2020, 07:49 AM
I'm on yfull now and my tmrca with the other HA looks massive...

Edit: Apparently age estimation is still in progress

Actually, I think it’s the opposite. We share so many snp’s Downstream of Y18629, they haven’t been able to determine our own subclade yet. We might need a third Y18629* to split it up.

Just like what happened with the other BY155996 kit, I got moved to another BY Clade after you tested.
?

drobbah
10-14-2020, 08:54 PM
Actually, I think it’s the opposite. We share so many snp’s Downstream of Y18629, they haven’t been able to determine our own subclade yet. We might need a third Y18629* to split it up.

Just like what happened with the other BY155996 kit, I got moved to another BY Clade after you tested.
?
On FTDNA we have 15 variants that don't match.Does that mean when another SM or CM takes the BigY, either of us will get assigned to a new downstream subclade? Also do you think we will get a tmrca on yfull that matches the time period when Muuse existed according to our abtirsi?

Almagest
10-15-2020, 07:06 PM
On FTDNA we have 15 variants that don't match.Does that mean when another SM or CM takes the BigY, either of us will get assigned to a new downstream subclade? Also do you think we will get a tmrca on yfull that matches the time period when Muuse existed according to our abtirsi?

Here’s how I understand it;

15 non matching variants = 7.5 non matching SNP’s on my line and your line (I.e if Muuse had two sons, my line through son 1 has 7.5 new SNP’s and your line through son 2 has 7.5 new SNP’s for a total of 15 non matching snp’s)

Some say 1 new SNP = 100 years or about 3 generations which puts our tmrca to 750 years, other say 1 new snp = 1.5 generations, so 7.5 (snp) x 1.5 (snp generation length) x 30 (avg generation age) = tmrca 337 ybp. That’s average 550 ybp for the two.

There’s obviously quite a difference between the two estimates. The best I have been able to find online is someone with a paper trail going back to 1830 for two Big Y testers.

See here
https://forums.familytreedna.com/forum/paternal-lineages-y-dna/big-y-and-snp-discovery/322969-big-y-non-matching-variants

The 1.5 generation per new snp method checks out for them according to their paper trail.

Personally I think it’s 2 generations for a new snp, so a tmrca of 450-500 ybp. You never know though because I expect different haplogroups to have different mutation rates.

Farroukh
10-16-2020, 01:59 AM
Yfull's rate (simplified):
2 SNPs=9 generations (1 SNP~4.5 generations~150 years)

Almagest
10-16-2020, 03:40 PM
Yfull's rate (simplified):
2 SNPs=9 generations (1 SNP~4.5 generations~150 years)

I did come across that, yfull use 1 “reliable” snp per 150 years estimate. I guess you can say that including “unreliable” calls the figure you would use is much lower (<100 years). Just looking further on the web it seems everyone uses different estimates, some self-reported grandfather-grandson big y results show 1 snp some 2 snp difference between them. I can’t find any paper on Snp mutation like you can on Str mutation rates. I think it’s never ending speculation until we get proper research. Even then those averages should not be used for short tmrca calculations because of the variability and randomness of mutations, they will only be accurate in tmrca greater than 1000 years.

Farroukh
10-17-2020, 04:17 AM
Y-SNP estimations are suitable for major points and are not useful for clan members kinship.

One can find many examples of subclades including father and sons but with TMRCA older than 100 years (TMRCA=30 years IRL).

Farroukh
10-17-2020, 04:20 AM
Dear friends,
This topic is about our Somalian brothers. Let us continue our "rates discussion" in the proper section :)

It seems Somalian E-M35 people went through several bottlenecks in the past.

Buxoro
10-17-2020, 04:32 AM
Dear friends,
This topic is about our Somalian brothers. Let us continue our "rates discussion" in the proper section :)

It seems Somalian E-M35 people went through several bottlenecks in the past.

Nevermind, i got what you meant.
But calling all e-m35 people brothers is strange.

Farroukh
10-17-2020, 07:41 AM
Dear Buxoro,
Sure, all people are children of Y-Adam and Mt-Eve and therefore all of E-M35 are brothers :)

farjanomar
10-18-2020, 10:34 PM
My FTDNA Y-12 Marker test Update:

I have been given Batch # 1130.
AWAITING TESTS
Tests Lab Procedure Batch Expected Notes
Y-DNA12 Y-DNA1-12 Markers 1130 11/11/2020 - 11/25/2020